'I’m armed like a conservative despite my liberal values' (Scott Olson/Getty Images)

At the beginning of the pandemic, I was out hunting for supplies, running through scenarios and planning for contingencies. I found myself at a local gun shop, where a line of edgy patrons stretched out the door and down the block. It’s not the kind of place my high school self would have imagined my middle-aged self would frequent. I am, after all, an American liberal, and American liberals, as a rule, believe that our founders (fresh from a war they won with muzzle-loaded weapons) left us in a terrible mess with respect to modern guns.
Decades ago I changed my position on the issue of “gun control”. Even though I still believe liberals are correct about the unfortunate predicament created by our founders, I now hold that we must tolerate privately held guns and all that comes with them. That may sound like a paradox, but once you understand the tensions internal to the mind of an armed American liberal, you will understand something fundamental about the American experiment.
Portland, where I live, is an absurdly progressive city on the compulsively liberal Pacific coast. But that isn’t the whole story. Washington, Oregon, and California, the three left-coast states, vote as a Democratic block. But that’s not because we lack for conservatives. We have lots of them. They are just consistently outnumbered and outvoted.
I should probably explain here that, although I believe that liberals are right about the unacceptable cost of our second amendment rights, conservatives are closer to correct, as I see it, about the governing of our cities — a fact that becomes glaringly obvious if you visit Los Angeles, Seattle or San Francisco and compare it to any major city in conservative Texas. American liberals don’t seem to understand that their values cannot simply be implemented locally. That’s partly why I’m armed like a conservative despite my liberal values. But I digress.
That day at the gun shop, most of the people I stood in line with were conservatives who felt like they could use a bit more firepower. And I couldn’t fault them. So did I, apparently. I imagine they sized me up and read me as a liberal. I’m pretty sure I look like one. But I felt welcome, or at least as welcome as one can in an environment where there is a run on guns and ammo.
And there was indeed a run, as there always is when the population is on edge. When Americans worry, they buy guns. Some of that is irrational, as the guns they bought in previous panics are likely to last a good long time. Some of it is people arming themselves for the first time. And some of it is intuitive — the result of a somewhat vague reassessment of the level of need.
The gun shop was visibly strange in those early pandemic days. It looked like it had been stripped. The wall behind the counter that would normally display perhaps 100 different models of handgun had maybe 20 — guns no one really wanted but would eventually be reluctantly purchased by some Johnny-come-lately. But it was the state of the ammo that was most striking. In the major calibers there wasn’t any, a pattern that everyone in the shop knew was repeated all over town, and indeed across the entire country. Ammunition manufacturers couldn’t keep up. When a crate of ammo was occasionally delivered to the shop, it was target ammo, not ideal for self-defence, and it was rationed to one box per family, per week. Welcome to America.
In the gun shop, no one was troubled by novices, or even liberals. Explanations were patient. It’s a surprisingly courteous, agreeable, and highly technical culture: no one knows more than gun enthusiasts about the hazards that come with firearms, and such people take a very dim view of those who treat guns casually.
I suspect the notable courtesy was at least partly the natural result of the level of armament. The staff were surely all armed. So too, I would guess, were the clientele — it is legal in Oregon to have a concealed handgun given the proper, easily obtained permit. In such an environment heightened tensions are quickly noted, and de-escalation is an ever-present priority. It is, in some sense, the opposite of Twitter, where no one is armed and people are routinely terrible to each other.
There was one woman behind the counter, who had the unenviable task of running background checks for every firearm purchased. In most cases that meant she had to disappoint customers and tell them it would be days or weeks before they will be able to collect their weapons. She had been ringing up and disappointing people, non-stop for weeks. As I neared the front of the line I heard her say to the room: “I don’t get it. Do they think they’re going to shoot a virus?”
“It’s not the virus they’re worried about,” I offered. “It’s their neighbours if the food runs out.”
There was a general murmur of agreement, and I was glad to have brought something useful to the party. But looking back, I don’t think my explanation was complete. In fact, I’m sure it wasn’t.
Most of those stocking up on guns and ammo belong to a culture, and like every other culture, it has its beliefs, suppositions and fears. That culture believes that tyranny may descend on us, even here in the freedom-loving United States of America, and that privately held guns are the key to fending it off. I’m not a member of this culture, but I believe they may well be right about this.
In a country where politicians are increasingly prone to withdraw or stand-down the police to curry favour with confused constituents, it is easy to see how things can quickly escalate as they did in Kenosha, Wisconsin the night Kyle Rittenhouse shot three men in self-defence at a riot. To be clear, I do not believe Rittenhouse, then 17-years-old, should have been there with his AR-15. But I also don’t believe the streets of American cities should ever be ceded to violent ideological bullies — a now familiar pattern that set the stage for Rittenhouse’s actions.
To understand why private guns may be decisive in a fight against tyranny, let’s take a moment to revisit what is assuredly the most inscrutable section of the United States Constitution, the Second Amendment: “A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
It’s almost like a deliberate non-sequitur. In fact, after decades of pondering the question, I’m now fairly convinced that that is exactly what the founders gave us: an intentionally vague pronouncement designed to force the question into the future, to ensure it would be repeatedly reevaluated to keep up with changing weaponry and circumstances. Near as I can tell, it’s a place holder for a principle they could not tailor in advance.
They clearly didn’t want to give the legislature or the courts complete latitude. They tied our hands; our representatives are not allowed to disarm the public, even if a majority desires it. And the founders gave us a strong hint about why — something about the need to protect a “free state” from, you know… stuff. But they didn’t tell us how much firepower citizens should be allowed to have. And thank goodness they didn’t, because muzzle-loaded weapons are no better a model of modern weapons than a movable-type printing press is for an algorithmically personalised infinite scroll.
The second amendment contains two conundrums, one novel and one original. The modern trouble is relatively straightforward: What does it mean not to “infringe” on the right to bear arms? In the 18th century that was far simpler because, although guns have always been a force multiplier for an individual, the factor by which an individual’s force was multiplied was so much lower. Back then, within reason, a person could be trusted to buy the guns they wanted to own.
On first glance, the original puzzle also seems uncomplicated: The state is going to need a fighting force if it is to remain free. But the longer one stares, the stranger this pronouncement seems. What militia, regulations and state were they even referring to? Is it a reference to the Army? No, the Army already existed and could have been referenced if that was their intent, having arisen first as the Continental Army that fought and won the revolution after it was formed in 1775, later to be re-founded as the United States Army in 1784 — seven years prior to the 1791 ratification of the Bill of Rights with its “well-regulated militia” riddle embedded in its second amendment. So if it wasn’t the Army protecting the “free state” they meant to invoke, then it must really have been the people — but against whom? And what is “a well-regulated militia” and where is it going to come from and in what way is it to be regulated other than “well”?
As a young man I regarded the second amendment as the founders’ biggest blunder. As we head into 2022, my position has flipped — I now believe history may well come to regard it as the most far-sighted thing the founders did, not in spite of its vagueness, but because of it. It’s like a mysterious passage from a sacred text that forces living people to interpret it in a modern context. The founders believed the people needed to be able to defend their free state — with deadly force — whether that refers to a geographical state, or a state of being, or both.
It’s not that I don’t see the terrible carnage which comes from ubiquitous guns. I do see it, and I detest it just like every other decent American. I know that a single deranged or careless person can rob us of anyone, at any time. No American is exempt. Not our families, nor our leaders. It is a terrifying realisation. With modern weapons an individual can kill dozens. It has happened many times, and it will happen again.
I find none of this remotely acceptable as a human, or an American. Remember, I said at the beginning that I believe that the liberals are basically right about the staggering cost of ubiquitous guns. Further, I don’t believe the net effect of ubiquitous guns during an average year, or decade, or century is a reduction in harm. It’s a complex picture, but many Western nations have managed crime as well or better than the US without the population being armed. On long timescales, however, I suspect this trend reverses. A nation’s descent into tyranny can kill millions, and it can drag continents, or the world as a whole, into war.
The terrifying carnage that derives from the right to bear arms must, in the end, be compared to the cost of not having that right, not only for the individual, but for the republic and its neighbours at a minimum. If you imagine that tyranny cannot happen in America due to some safeguard built into our system, or by virtue of some immunity residing in the population itself, then perhaps there is nothing left to discuss.
For my part, I don’t believe it. In fact, I believe I know better, both as a scholar and as someone who was falsely accused of racism and hunted in my own neighbourhood — with the police withdrawn in a foolish attempt to appease the mob. And I suspect that if we put the question to a vote, the fraction of the citizenry who believes tyranny could happen here is rising rapidly, even if we don’t necessarily agree on its most likely source. Of course, the fact that tyranny may happen anywhere is not sufficient counterweight to the unacceptable cost of ubiquitous modern firearms. To imagine that cost is outweighed, one must also believe that an armed population is in a position to fend off tyrants.
This, I admit, is by no means clear. Many will correctly point out that no matter how many semi-automatic weapons are in private hands, it will never be a match for the firepower of the guns — including fully automatic guns — in the publicly funded arsenals that, the argument goes, are in danger of finding themselves at the disposal of tyrants. When you add to that the incredible range of weapons and weapon-systems for which the public has no answer, it’s a slam dunk: in a head-to-head conflict between a treasonous, tyrant-led US military on the one hand, and freedom-loving Americans on the other, the military would trounce any number of militias, no matter how “well-regulated”.
But that isn’t really a persuasive argument, for two reasons. First, who decided this would be a fair fight? How many times will the US military have to find itself stalemated by inferior forces before we incorporate the lesson of asymmetric warfare into our national consciousness?
When our family lived in Olympia, Washington, we frequently saw foxes in our backyard. We learned not to worry about our cats because the foxes seemed to simply ignore them. Here in Portland, we have coyotes instead of foxes and neighbourhood cats are constantly disappearing. Does this imply that a wild fox can’t beat a housecat while a coyote can? As a mammalogist I’m sure that’s not it. A fox would almost always win a fight to the death with a domestic cat. But a house cat is capable of doing enough damage on the way out to dissuade anything but a desperate fox from trying it. An armed populace might not be able to defeat a tyrant’s army, but they could well punish it into retreat.
The second reason an armed population might succeed against the military-gone-rogue is that it is exceedingly unlikely the entire military would accept immoral orders. Either they would divide over the question, and the armed populace would end up fighting alongside the hopefully large portion of the military who remained loyal to the Constitution and their fellow citizens. Or those who would naturally resist immoral orders would have been purged from the uniformed ranks under some pretext that discovers and discharges those with independent minds, returning these non-compliant souls home to their well-armed families and neighbourhoods. Either way, private gun ownership might well prove decisive in a periodic contest between “patriots and tyrants”.
I expect this argument will prove unpopular. Are we really that near the brink of tyranny in America? I don’t know. I think it’s plausible enough that it would be irresponsible not to discuss what might happen.
I also think it is worth taking a brief look at Australia to discern whether it has any lessons for us. Australia is, after all, a nation with many similarities to the US: it had its own permissive gun ownership laws and culture until the 1996 massacre in Port Arthur, Tasmania, in which 35 people were killed. The alterations in Australia’s gun laws and the gun buyback programme that followed are frequently held up as a possible model for American gun reform. And they make a strong case that massacres and other gun violence can indeed be greatly reduced by such a programme. But at what price?
I have to tell you, I’m finding it very difficult to make full sense of events in Australia at the moment. I see things that look a lot like tyranny reported from there. I have friends — people I know personally and trust — fleeing Australia due to what looks to them and sounds to me like tyranny. And I have interviewed Australians who describe absolutely tyrannical encounters they are having with governmental authorities.
But I also see respected people assuring me the picture we are getting is distorted. Whatever the truth, as the ideals of the liberal West spread like wildfire during the 20th century, I fear we Americans were lulled into a false sense of complacency as freedom caught on in region after region and appeared to become permanent. I don’t know if we will ever fully discern our founder’s intent with respect to the second amendment. But I strongly suspect their understanding of freedom, freshly won, was much more realistic than ours.
This is what gun ownership comes down to, whether you’re a liberal or a conservative. If there is a way to protect liberty from spasms of tyranny that does not condemn us to the spectacular cost of regular gun violence, I’d love to know it. But if the dynamism of the West, the productivity, the ingenuity, and the quest for fairness can only be protected from tyrants at the point of a gun, then so be it.
Join the discussion
Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber
To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.
Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.
SubscribeI am a man, but nobody will convince me that removing a new born baby from its mother can be anything less than extremely traumatic for both mother and baby. There is 400 million years of evolution behind the bond between the two, and I doubt that a cheque for services rendered can compensate for that broken bond. Some things are not for sale.
True, anyone who has tried to take a foal or a calf from it’s mother will have seen the inconsolable distress it causes. We are mammals too.
True, anyone who has tried to take a foal or a calf from it’s mother will have seen the inconsolable distress it causes. We are mammals too.
I am a man, but nobody will convince me that removing a new born baby from its mother can be anything less than extremely traumatic for both mother and baby. There is 400 million years of evolution behind the bond between the two, and I doubt that a cheque for services rendered can compensate for that broken bond. Some things are not for sale.
I’m not sure why the baseline stupidity and lack of insight exposed by KK should be treated as anything other than what it is. Is she really supposed to be a role model, that other females should slavishly follow? Okay… so anyone who watches, listens or otherwise pays attention to anything she does is equally culpable. Unfortunately, that seems to amount to a great many… and probably males too.
MH has an absolute open goal in front of her with this issue, and it’s a sad indictment of our cultural realm that she even has to tap this particular ball over the line.
Let me be clear; there are plenty of examples where non-birthing mothers and parents are able and willing to care for and love new human lives. Those newborns will always be with us and society owes parents who take up that responsibility a debt of gratitude.
As a lifestyle choice, it’s an abomination. Studies looking into the bonding differences between natal and non-natal parents are scarcely needed, since the instinctive human drive to protect and nourish (in every sense) one’s own genetic inheritance is the basis of practically everything we do. Any parent will know the unique frisson of joy and responsibility involved when their offspring appears in the world. As a newish grandparent, that sensation rebounds through the generational layers and produces a coherent and meaningful societal realm. Without it, or in its deliberate abandonment, lies breakdown and a bottomless well of chaos. I hope that’s what KK felt, perhaps for the first time in her life. That’s the meaning of guilt.
Totally agree, but give KK credit for noticing and worrying about it. That’s more than I would have expected.
Exactly.
Exactly.
It’s a lifestyle choice that gay couples make the whole time. Lesbians couples are able to actually birth. I think Khloe showed surprising honesty and vulnerability for someone in her position. She didn’t have to say anything.
Totally agree, but give KK credit for noticing and worrying about it. That’s more than I would have expected.
It’s a lifestyle choice that gay couples make the whole time. Lesbians couples are able to actually birth. I think Khloe showed surprising honesty and vulnerability for someone in her position. She didn’t have to say anything.
I’m not sure why the baseline stupidity and lack of insight exposed by KK should be treated as anything other than what it is. Is she really supposed to be a role model, that other females should slavishly follow? Okay… so anyone who watches, listens or otherwise pays attention to anything she does is equally culpable. Unfortunately, that seems to amount to a great many… and probably males too.
MH has an absolute open goal in front of her with this issue, and it’s a sad indictment of our cultural realm that she even has to tap this particular ball over the line.
Let me be clear; there are plenty of examples where non-birthing mothers and parents are able and willing to care for and love new human lives. Those newborns will always be with us and society owes parents who take up that responsibility a debt of gratitude.
As a lifestyle choice, it’s an abomination. Studies looking into the bonding differences between natal and non-natal parents are scarcely needed, since the instinctive human drive to protect and nourish (in every sense) one’s own genetic inheritance is the basis of practically everything we do. Any parent will know the unique frisson of joy and responsibility involved when their offspring appears in the world. As a newish grandparent, that sensation rebounds through the generational layers and produces a coherent and meaningful societal realm. Without it, or in its deliberate abandonment, lies breakdown and a bottomless well of chaos. I hope that’s what KK felt, perhaps for the first time in her life. That’s the meaning of guilt.
We haven’t been allowed to buy adults for some long while, why is it now OK to buy babies????? And the rupturing of he mother-child bond is a heinous crime as we now recognise in the censure of the forced adoptions of more puritanical times.
But can you believe anything that a ‘reality’ star says?
And what about the “pro-lifers” who blithly say to those who don’t want give birth “oh just give it up for adoption”. Just one aspect of their sanctimoneous cruelty.
But can you believe anything that a ‘reality’ star says?
And what about the “pro-lifers” who blithly say to those who don’t want give birth “oh just give it up for adoption”. Just one aspect of their sanctimoneous cruelty.
We haven’t been allowed to buy adults for some long while, why is it now OK to buy babies????? And the rupturing of he mother-child bond is a heinous crime as we now recognise in the censure of the forced adoptions of more puritanical times.
As the mother of both biological and adopted children, Mary is right on target here. The first weeks after giving birth were magical, I would watch the baby sleeping when I could’ve been sleeping myself. I couldn’t wait until they woke up sometimes, and we kept them in our bed the first months. Two other children were adopted at 3 weeks and 5 months. 30 years later I struggle to relate to the one adopted at 3 weeks and he shows definite signs of attachment issues in all relationships. The one adopted at 5 months was a much quicker and more intense attachment, he was very small for his age, turned out to have orthopedic and learning issues, but has a wonderfully loving personality, and is attached to his older siblings as well as his father and I.
I have talked to a lot of adoptive parents and it is not always as smooth a relationship as people like to think. Depending on the child’s personality there is a primal sense of rejection which cannot be overcome no matter what you do.
I would love to know what made the difference in how you felt between the two adoted children, that is if you know.
I would love to know what made the difference in how you felt between the two adoted children, that is if you know.
As the mother of both biological and adopted children, Mary is right on target here. The first weeks after giving birth were magical, I would watch the baby sleeping when I could’ve been sleeping myself. I couldn’t wait until they woke up sometimes, and we kept them in our bed the first months. Two other children were adopted at 3 weeks and 5 months. 30 years later I struggle to relate to the one adopted at 3 weeks and he shows definite signs of attachment issues in all relationships. The one adopted at 5 months was a much quicker and more intense attachment, he was very small for his age, turned out to have orthopedic and learning issues, but has a wonderfully loving personality, and is attached to his older siblings as well as his father and I.
I have talked to a lot of adoptive parents and it is not always as smooth a relationship as people like to think. Depending on the child’s personality there is a primal sense of rejection which cannot be overcome no matter what you do.
Amen and thanks!!
It is irrelevant to the discussion, but out of sheer curiosity was she unable to conceive or did she “just” choose surrogacy?
Also, in this case who was the child conceived from Khloé and her husband/partner, or was there a third party involved, also now out of the picture?
Ok, I have clicked on the first link and found out that the father is known (although from what I read, one must ask oneself… why????? You had surrogacy, hardly a drunken encounter, so it was an active and expensive choice).
Money is no problem, of course. I don’t think Kim birthed all of her kids, either.
Money is no problem, of course. I don’t think Kim birthed all of her kids, either.
Curious, yes. I wonder if it was her egg fertilized with his sperm and then put into a surrogate to carry.
Ok, I have clicked on the first link and found out that the father is known (although from what I read, one must ask oneself… why????? You had surrogacy, hardly a drunken encounter, so it was an active and expensive choice).
Curious, yes. I wonder if it was her egg fertilized with his sperm and then put into a surrogate to carry.
Amen and thanks!!
It is irrelevant to the discussion, but out of sheer curiosity was she unable to conceive or did she “just” choose surrogacy?
Also, in this case who was the child conceived from Khloé and her husband/partner, or was there a third party involved, also now out of the picture?
You want to be a surrogate for someone you know, that’s a beautiful thing and I think we should even subsidize it in some way. But paid surrogacy should be banned. Full stop.
We don’t allow people to buy other people. We don’t allow people to buy babies. We don’t allow people to buy organs. Yet we act like people renting other people’s wombs to create a baby that they “own” is somehow OK.
End commercial surrogacy.
Easy for you to say, Brian. There are many women unable to carry a child for medical reasons. Who are you, as a man, to say what women do with their bodies.
The same way I have a right to decide you can’t shoot up heroin.
I believe it is demonstrably against the common good to allow any person to rent his or her body (or any part of it) to another person. That’s called slavery and I am opposed to it. That’s the only basis I need. I’m a post-liberal so I don’t have any problem with law being based on the common good instead of on the Enlightenment idea of maximal individual autonomy.
As to my cred on this issue? My wife and I don’t have any biological children. All 3 of daughters were adopted out of foster care. So yes, I do have skin in the game.
The same way I have a right to decide you can’t shoot up heroin.
I believe it is demonstrably against the common good to allow any person to rent his or her body (or any part of it) to another person. That’s called slavery and I am opposed to it. That’s the only basis I need. I’m a post-liberal so I don’t have any problem with law being based on the common good instead of on the Enlightenment idea of maximal individual autonomy.
As to my cred on this issue? My wife and I don’t have any biological children. All 3 of daughters were adopted out of foster care. So yes, I do have skin in the game.
Easy for you to say, Brian. There are many women unable to carry a child for medical reasons. Who are you, as a man, to say what women do with their bodies.
You want to be a surrogate for someone you know, that’s a beautiful thing and I think we should even subsidize it in some way. But paid surrogacy should be banned. Full stop.
We don’t allow people to buy other people. We don’t allow people to buy babies. We don’t allow people to buy organs. Yet we act like people renting other people’s wombs to create a baby that they “own” is somehow OK.
End commercial surrogacy.
Very good article. This appears to be a very transactional arrangement, and it feels kinda creepy. But what about women who cannot conceive, who want their own biological baby? I think this would account for the largest proportion of surrogacy cases. Is it okay for an outsider like me to tell them to adopt? What gives me the right to dictate the choice of others? I know this won’t be a popular opinion, but the criticism will be much stronger if someone shows research showing surrogacy leads to worse outcomes for children.
What gives you the right is what IS right. Things are right or wrong, and there is no natural right to do what is wrong. Even on the scale of democracy, you have a right to “tell others what to do” to some degree (which is what every law does) the same as those with differing opinions do. Someone’s ideas of what are true, good, and beautiful will prevail in any system of law. Why shouldn’t those ideas belong to those who think that some things are simply wrong?
Absolutely! I’ve found the more time people spend worrying about abstract “rights” the less willing they are to accept that some things just aren’t “right”.
Rubbish. There speaks a man who will neve rhave to make that kind of choice.
No Clare. As I said above, 3 adopted children means I have put my money where my mouth was on this issue.
No Clare. As I said above, 3 adopted children means I have put my money where my mouth was on this issue.
Rubbish. There speaks a man who will neve rhave to make that kind of choice.
Nunya and Brian, I’ve tried to discuss this in my note to Jim. In the proverbial nutshell, though, I’ll add here that not everyone agrees that “some things are simply wrong” (or right). Democracies must keep finding ways of negotiating between competing claims about truth and justice. The majority rules, but “liberal democracies” that intend to endure don’t rely merely on numbers. They try to prevent not only the tyranny of a majority but also the tyranny of a minority–that is, in this woke age, allied minorities.
My body my choice, guys.
The idea that “democracies negotiate between competing definitions of right and wrong” is actually not that accurate. Democracies can handle lots of disagreement about “means” (how to achieve our mutually agreed goal?) but very little disagreement over “ends” (what is the goal?)
If my definition of “good” = your definition of “evil”, you will not voluntarily surrender power to me. You will fight me using every tool at your disposal (lying, cheating, vote fraud, intimidation, outright force, murder?) to make sure my agenda is thwarted. And you should. True evil should not be tolerated. Because they are rooted in tolerance for dissent, democratic structures are ill suited for this kind of disagreement.
This is one of my worries about American politics. The Democrats have spent 7 years convincing themselves that Donald Trump is the second coming of Hitler. If they truly believe that (as their loudest and most activist supporters clearly do), and Trump were to win in 2024, they will by unable to surrender power to him. If you’re fighting Hitler, ANYTHING is acceptable.
My body my choice, guys.
The idea that “democracies negotiate between competing definitions of right and wrong” is actually not that accurate. Democracies can handle lots of disagreement about “means” (how to achieve our mutually agreed goal?) but very little disagreement over “ends” (what is the goal?)
If my definition of “good” = your definition of “evil”, you will not voluntarily surrender power to me. You will fight me using every tool at your disposal (lying, cheating, vote fraud, intimidation, outright force, murder?) to make sure my agenda is thwarted. And you should. True evil should not be tolerated. Because they are rooted in tolerance for dissent, democratic structures are ill suited for this kind of disagreement.
This is one of my worries about American politics. The Democrats have spent 7 years convincing themselves that Donald Trump is the second coming of Hitler. If they truly believe that (as their loudest and most activist supporters clearly do), and Trump were to win in 2024, they will by unable to surrender power to him. If you’re fighting Hitler, ANYTHING is acceptable.
What gives you the right to judge and tell women what they can and can’t do with their bodies. There are many reasons why a woman might need to use a surrogate.
Absolutely! I’ve found the more time people spend worrying about abstract “rights” the less willing they are to accept that some things just aren’t “right”.
Nunya and Brian, I’ve tried to discuss this in my note to Jim. In the proverbial nutshell, though, I’ll add here that not everyone agrees that “some things are simply wrong” (or right). Democracies must keep finding ways of negotiating between competing claims about truth and justice. The majority rules, but “liberal democracies” that intend to endure don’t rely merely on numbers. They try to prevent not only the tyranny of a majority but also the tyranny of a minority–that is, in this woke age, allied minorities.
What gives you the right to judge and tell women what they can and can’t do with their bodies. There are many reasons why a woman might need to use a surrogate.
It depends on whose rights are paramount, the parents’ or the child’s.
More to the point, is having a child a right? I personally would say no.
I would say having a child is a fundamental right. The species literally depends on it. Should someone who cannot physically give birth have a right to surrogacy? That’s a different question. You would have to show me it leads to bad outcomes for children.
Having a child by artificial means is not a fundamental right. It’s an atrocity to forcibly sterilize people, but there is nothing wrong with outlawing surrogacy, especially commercial surrogacy.
I never said having a child by surrogacy is a fundamental right:
Why should it not be?
Why should it not be?
And what of forcing a woman to give birth to an unwanted child? Is that not the worst crime of all for both mother and baby?
I never said having a child by surrogacy is a fundamental right:
And what of forcing a woman to give birth to an unwanted child? Is that not the worst crime of all for both mother and baby?
You profoundly misunderstand the notion of “rights”. Having a child is at once a privilege and a lifelong responsibility. It’s not a “right”.
Those who suffered the consequences of China’s one-child policy might disagree with you.
Amy, we can be opposed to the oppression in China that, amongst other things, forbade a family from having a second child, without saying that the family had a right to have that child. After all a right can be said to produce a demand or obligation on another to satisfy it or enable it.
Amy, we can be opposed to the oppression in China that, amongst other things, forbade a family from having a second child, without saying that the family had a right to have that child. After all a right can be said to produce a demand or obligation on another to satisfy it or enable it.
A priviledge granted by the state to approved serfs. I do love your kind of “liberal progressive”
It should be a choice.
Those who suffered the consequences of China’s one-child policy might disagree with you.
A priviledge granted by the state to approved serfs. I do love your kind of “liberal progressive”
It should be a choice.
You are right, I should have said “have a child by *any* means”.
I never said surrogacy is a right.
Why should it be wrong?
Why should it be wrong?
I never said surrogacy is a right.
There are many bad parents one would think that just using a surrogate is the least of humans problems. These children are, at least, wanted.
Having a child by artificial means is not a fundamental right. It’s an atrocity to forcibly sterilize people, but there is nothing wrong with outlawing surrogacy, especially commercial surrogacy.
You profoundly misunderstand the notion of “rights”. Having a child is at once a privilege and a lifelong responsibility. It’s not a “right”.
You are right, I should have said “have a child by *any* means”.
There are many bad parents one would think that just using a surrogate is the least of humans problems. These children are, at least, wanted.
I would say having a child is a fundamental right. The species literally depends on it. Should someone who cannot physically give birth have a right to surrogacy? That’s a different question. You would have to show me it leads to bad outcomes for children.
Besides the fact that by the time sufficient data is available (given the complex other factors which would need to be controlled for) the trend will be irreversible, the reality is publishing studies which indicated surrogacy resulted in worse outcomes would be career endangering.
It is not a matter or better/worse outcome, but whether children and motherhood should be seen as a commodity.
Besides, unless we end up in the Twilight Zone (I remember an episode about this, it was something about humanity being “like ants”), numbers will always be very small indeed.
What about fundamentalist Christians who pump out litters of babies with the goal of making more of the cult. Is that right or wrong?
What about fundamentalist Christians who pump out litters of babies with the goal of making more of the cult. Is that right or wrong?
I have a reply in purgatory, not sure why…
Shouldn’t there be sufficient date by now? It’s been happening for about 20 years.
Not on any great scale until recently. But meaningful research will be curtailed for ideological reasons.
Exactly. Where there’s a profit to be made, it’s suspiciously hard to get data on harm.
Do you know that for a fact?
Exactly. Where there’s a profit to be made, it’s suspiciously hard to get data on harm.
Do you know that for a fact?
Just because it’s been happening for 20 years doesn’t mean there is good data on its effects on children – especially since it is primarily those who are economically advantaged who can afford surrorgacy.
It’s more important to study the effects of the many other horrors of having children willy nilly.
It’s more important to study the effects of the many other horrors of having children willy nilly.
Not on any great scale until recently. But meaningful research will be curtailed for ideological reasons.
Just because it’s been happening for 20 years doesn’t mean there is good data on its effects on children – especially since it is primarily those who are economically advantaged who can afford surrorgacy.
It is not a matter or better/worse outcome, but whether children and motherhood should be seen as a commodity.
Besides, unless we end up in the Twilight Zone (I remember an episode about this, it was something about humanity being “like ants”), numbers will always be very small indeed.
I have a reply in purgatory, not sure why…
Shouldn’t there be sufficient date by now? It’s been happening for about 20 years.
Many women opt for donor eggs and if conception is successful will carry the baby to term. Adoption is unusually difficult because of abortion unless you are willing to take on a drug addicted baby or abused child.
Rubbish. Abortion has nothing to do with difficulty in adopting. For the right price a child can be acquired.
Rubbish. Abortion has nothing to do with difficulty in adopting. For the right price a child can be acquired.
You’ve introduced a thorny topic, Jim, by referring to “rights.” But it’s an important topic, one that might never have even occurred to Kardashian. It’s easy to confuse rights with desires, after all, which have nothing at all to do with each other. It’s easy to confuse rights with duties, moreover, which interact with each other.
One underlying problem, moreover, is the origin or rights. Is saying “I have a right” enough to make it so? Who decides? On what basis? Where do rights come from? From intuition? From divine revelation? From natural-law philosophy or some other philosophy? From the state or quasi-state? We need to ask these questions, because the answer is far from self-evident. That’s because the notion of rights is a secular, modern and Western one. The answers of communities vary considerably, therefore, which has led to debates over cultural imperialism (among other things).
In 1948, however, the United Nations proclaimed its Declaration of Human Rights. One of these rights is the right to found a family, which is really about the right to do so free from interference by the state, not about a right to own children. No one has a right to own anyone. In 1959, moreover, the United Nations proclaimed its Declaration of the Rights of the Child–followed in 1989 by its Convention on the Rights of the Child (including the apparently controversial right to life). All of these proclamations have been controversial on various religious and ideological grounds. Some feminists don’t like the emphasis on women as mothers, for instance, or which rights, if any, the fetus has.
Advocates of surrogacy might claim that infertile couples or even single people have some right to children, but many would oppose them by pointing instead to the competing rights of children. That brings me to another problem in any discussion of rights. They often clash with each other. According to the United Nations, unlike many member nations, priority always goes to the child, not the parents.
Well we know who probably won’t like your opionion, which is the same as mine – the so called “pro-lifers” who are so quick to tell women what they can and can’t do with their bodies.
What gives you the right is what IS right. Things are right or wrong, and there is no natural right to do what is wrong. Even on the scale of democracy, you have a right to “tell others what to do” to some degree (which is what every law does) the same as those with differing opinions do. Someone’s ideas of what are true, good, and beautiful will prevail in any system of law. Why shouldn’t those ideas belong to those who think that some things are simply wrong?
It depends on whose rights are paramount, the parents’ or the child’s.
More to the point, is having a child a right? I personally would say no.
Besides the fact that by the time sufficient data is available (given the complex other factors which would need to be controlled for) the trend will be irreversible, the reality is publishing studies which indicated surrogacy resulted in worse outcomes would be career endangering.
Many women opt for donor eggs and if conception is successful will carry the baby to term. Adoption is unusually difficult because of abortion unless you are willing to take on a drug addicted baby or abused child.
You’ve introduced a thorny topic, Jim, by referring to “rights.” But it’s an important topic, one that might never have even occurred to Kardashian. It’s easy to confuse rights with desires, after all, which have nothing at all to do with each other. It’s easy to confuse rights with duties, moreover, which interact with each other.
One underlying problem, moreover, is the origin or rights. Is saying “I have a right” enough to make it so? Who decides? On what basis? Where do rights come from? From intuition? From divine revelation? From natural-law philosophy or some other philosophy? From the state or quasi-state? We need to ask these questions, because the answer is far from self-evident. That’s because the notion of rights is a secular, modern and Western one. The answers of communities vary considerably, therefore, which has led to debates over cultural imperialism (among other things).
In 1948, however, the United Nations proclaimed its Declaration of Human Rights. One of these rights is the right to found a family, which is really about the right to do so free from interference by the state, not about a right to own children. No one has a right to own anyone. In 1959, moreover, the United Nations proclaimed its Declaration of the Rights of the Child–followed in 1989 by its Convention on the Rights of the Child (including the apparently controversial right to life). All of these proclamations have been controversial on various religious and ideological grounds. Some feminists don’t like the emphasis on women as mothers, for instance, or which rights, if any, the fetus has.
Advocates of surrogacy might claim that infertile couples or even single people have some right to children, but many would oppose them by pointing instead to the competing rights of children. That brings me to another problem in any discussion of rights. They often clash with each other. According to the United Nations, unlike many member nations, priority always goes to the child, not the parents.
Well we know who probably won’t like your opionion, which is the same as mine – the so called “pro-lifers” who are so quick to tell women what they can and can’t do with their bodies.
Very good article. This appears to be a very transactional arrangement, and it feels kinda creepy. But what about women who cannot conceive, who want their own biological baby? I think this would account for the largest proportion of surrogacy cases. Is it okay for an outsider like me to tell them to adopt? What gives me the right to dictate the choice of others? I know this won’t be a popular opinion, but the criticism will be much stronger if someone shows research showing surrogacy leads to worse outcomes for children.
The surrogacy issue got me to thinking about the fact that fetal cells are transferred to the mother. In Kloe’s case the surrogates.
Mothers sometimes feel that they are still carrying their children with them. In a sense this is true.
Studies are ongoing with babies cells migrating to particular organs of their mothers.
Could it be a part of the reason mothers can sense their children’s presence when separated from their children?
In Kloe’s case it is the surrogate whose tissues harbor her babies cells.
How might this impact the attunement a mother develops with her child as stated by Kloe, when “you are separated’?
Yes! I think so. I remember, as usual, being treated like an idiot by doctors for suggesting (25 years ago) that mothers were physically experiencing characteristics of their children unique to the personality and phenotype of each child, symptoms that could be documented w/ some methodological rigor after accounting for the obvious validity challenges.
Beyond that, I think that the precognitive “spooky action at a distance” could very well be related to literal quantum entanglement from birth, though I don’t know the anecdotal gender breakdown on that and whether biological fathers and/or simply very paranormally attached loved ones can pick up on those events too. Maybe the initial quantum entanglement is simply a stronger signal that overrides the brain filter of otherwise psi-insensitive women, thereby picking up signals to which psi-sensitive people are attuned w/o the physiological prior connection.
Or how a mother who gives her child up for adoption feels?
Yes! I think so. I remember, as usual, being treated like an idiot by doctors for suggesting (25 years ago) that mothers were physically experiencing characteristics of their children unique to the personality and phenotype of each child, symptoms that could be documented w/ some methodological rigor after accounting for the obvious validity challenges.
Beyond that, I think that the precognitive “spooky action at a distance” could very well be related to literal quantum entanglement from birth, though I don’t know the anecdotal gender breakdown on that and whether biological fathers and/or simply very paranormally attached loved ones can pick up on those events too. Maybe the initial quantum entanglement is simply a stronger signal that overrides the brain filter of otherwise psi-insensitive women, thereby picking up signals to which psi-sensitive people are attuned w/o the physiological prior connection.
Or how a mother who gives her child up for adoption feels?
The surrogacy issue got me to thinking about the fact that fetal cells are transferred to the mother. In Kloe’s case the surrogates.
Mothers sometimes feel that they are still carrying their children with them. In a sense this is true.
Studies are ongoing with babies cells migrating to particular organs of their mothers.
Could it be a part of the reason mothers can sense their children’s presence when separated from their children?
In Kloe’s case it is the surrogate whose tissues harbor her babies cells.
How might this impact the attunement a mother develops with her child as stated by Kloe, when “you are separated’?
I sure hope she didn’t use a surrogate simply to preserve her figure. I’ve never looked up anything about the Kardashians in my life and rush to the remote (when one even needs to use it anymore) like I did during the Bush years to ensure I don’t have to hear anything about them. So I apologize in advance if she had a hysterectomy for a very serious condition early on and truly cannot get pregnant. Adopting infants is very hard, so I understand why surrogacy (w/in families, not-for-profit) is an option.
However, it’s notoriously easy to create a healthcare “risk” to justify coercing a stranger to endure the extreme discomfort and actual physical risk of pregnancy and childbirth. You could just claim a predisposition to breast or ovarian cancer, and voila–pregnancy increases your lifetime risk and thus it’s unsafe! Or say that you’ve got a mental illness that requires ongoing meds you can’t stop during pregnancy, and that the emotional burden of pregnancy will cause too much stress: voila! Can’t carry a child.
Never mind that pregnant women have to undergo these very difficult withdrawals and risks all the time–but if you’ve got enough money and a willing doctor, presto, you qualify.
I don’t think we are allowed to sell our organs in the US, so I’m not sure how we’re allowed to sell babies, OR sexual access. Worse, any process like that inevitably attracts pimps (or, reproduction counseling managerse) that will exploit females like dairy cows to get the most out at the least cost.
Fundamentalist Christians view women as dairy cows, and so called “pro-lifers” are the same.
Fundamentalist Christians view women as dairy cows, and so called “pro-lifers” are the same.
I sure hope she didn’t use a surrogate simply to preserve her figure. I’ve never looked up anything about the Kardashians in my life and rush to the remote (when one even needs to use it anymore) like I did during the Bush years to ensure I don’t have to hear anything about them. So I apologize in advance if she had a hysterectomy for a very serious condition early on and truly cannot get pregnant. Adopting infants is very hard, so I understand why surrogacy (w/in families, not-for-profit) is an option.
However, it’s notoriously easy to create a healthcare “risk” to justify coercing a stranger to endure the extreme discomfort and actual physical risk of pregnancy and childbirth. You could just claim a predisposition to breast or ovarian cancer, and voila–pregnancy increases your lifetime risk and thus it’s unsafe! Or say that you’ve got a mental illness that requires ongoing meds you can’t stop during pregnancy, and that the emotional burden of pregnancy will cause too much stress: voila! Can’t carry a child.
Never mind that pregnant women have to undergo these very difficult withdrawals and risks all the time–but if you’ve got enough money and a willing doctor, presto, you qualify.
I don’t think we are allowed to sell our organs in the US, so I’m not sure how we’re allowed to sell babies, OR sexual access. Worse, any process like that inevitably attracts pimps (or, reproduction counseling managerse) that will exploit females like dairy cows to get the most out at the least cost.
Adoption of infants is insanely difficult in the US: I had two neighbors, a vibrant couple w/ two young kids who couldn’t have any more, who were still waiting FOUR YEARS to adopt a little girl from Haiti. For all I know, six years later, they still are–maybe the child can come to boarding school or college in the US, and they’ll “adopt” her then. The outright bribery required–called “paperwork”–to get that child out of the country was ridiculous. They were trying to parent her remotely–she’d been identified, they’d been through all of these hoops, they’d met each other (and siblings), and yet, the child still had to remain in an orphanage due to all sorts of additional “regulations.”
Something tells me this wasn’t just an abundance of caution about trafficking, considering how many children continue to be trafficked, easily (the open border has provided a generation’s worth of victims for the usual pedophiles). This is/was about squeezing as much money as possible out of loving, American, potential adoptive parents, before giving up the child, while the child is being further damaged in an orphanage and creating even more trauma to be undone once she arrived in the US.
It would perhaps have been better to use a surrogate.
It would perhaps have been better to use a surrogate.
Adoption of infants is insanely difficult in the US: I had two neighbors, a vibrant couple w/ two young kids who couldn’t have any more, who were still waiting FOUR YEARS to adopt a little girl from Haiti. For all I know, six years later, they still are–maybe the child can come to boarding school or college in the US, and they’ll “adopt” her then. The outright bribery required–called “paperwork”–to get that child out of the country was ridiculous. They were trying to parent her remotely–she’d been identified, they’d been through all of these hoops, they’d met each other (and siblings), and yet, the child still had to remain in an orphanage due to all sorts of additional “regulations.”
Something tells me this wasn’t just an abundance of caution about trafficking, considering how many children continue to be trafficked, easily (the open border has provided a generation’s worth of victims for the usual pedophiles). This is/was about squeezing as much money as possible out of loving, American, potential adoptive parents, before giving up the child, while the child is being further damaged in an orphanage and creating even more trauma to be undone once she arrived in the US.
who is Kloe Kardashian? Never heard of her…
who is Kloe Kardashian? Never heard of her…
‘Parents have a duty to put their children’s needs first.’
Magnificent Mary is as usual,acutely en point.Unfortunately,the narcissism of Chloe and her ilk would define that statement as positive affirmation of their actions.There is no cure for stupidity!
‘Parents have a duty to put their children’s needs first.’
Magnificent Mary is as usual,acutely en point.Unfortunately,the narcissism of Chloe and her ilk would define that statement as positive affirmation of their actions.There is no cure for stupidity!
I’m surpried Kloe was willing to be so honest and vulnerable knowing there would be a backlash. She didn’t have to reveal that observation. Many years ago when babies began to be born in hospitals rather than at home, they were whisked off to be weighed and measured and not returned to the mother for quite some time, and many of us were not breast-fed. Not much was known about bonding then, but it must have negatively impacted both mother and baby in ways that we’ll never know.