The left used to oppose membership of the EU, using immigration to undercut wages, using environmentalism to deny the poor economic development, supported freedom of speech against censorship and the interests of working classes against those of the middle classes.
Today, Guardian readers are currently up arms about key workers receiving pay rises, whilst many Conservative voters support greater intervention in the economy. The political sphere has flipped on its head and yet for many voters, blinded by tribalism, their votes are still determined by redundant the stereo types of left and right wing.
Political parties are little more than brand names. The badges remain the same but the ideologies are never fixed. Better to base your vote on for whichever party reflects your interests and values, rather than the colour of the rosette.
Quite right. Modern Labour doesn’t like the workers, and the Tories are anti-business.
Ian Barton
2 years ago
A great factual illustration of how far the Labour Party have moved away from supporting the working class people of this country.
I doubt Starmer can “clear the stables” in time for the next election ..
You could argue that Labour MPs and the Conservative MPs are mostly of the same political class (although not necessarily the same social class) – and that ‘policies’ are mostly just mood music.
Labour has a bigger problem in that their membership are still concerned about implementation of significant policy changes which the Labour MPs are not comfortable with. It would need a charismatic leader to convince both parts of the Labour Party to work together.
As I keep saying, since 1945 no government that went into an election with a working majority has lost it to be replaced in office by the opposition with a working majority of its own (the apparent exception in 1970 was in the wake of a change in the voting age).
This constructively means that in 2019 Boris won two terms, not one; Labour will lose again in 2023, because there’s no overturning an 80-odd seat majority in one term.
This helpfully removes Starmer. He’s quite plausible and hard to paint as extreme, so he could have been a threat. But he has been played five years too soon, he clearly doesn’t know what to do about all his anti-Semitic loonies (nor do I – and unlike Militant, these loonies aren’t all members of a helpfully bannable party-within-a-party), and so his talents will thus be wasted. He’s Labour’s William Hague, in effect.
With all that said, since 1945 nobody’s won more than four consecutive elections either. 2023 will be the Conservatives’ fourth win, following 2010, 2015, and 2017. It’s not clear how comparable the two runs are, since the first (1979 – 1992) was four consecutive majorities, whereas the current one has included two minorities and a non-working majority. The Conservative vote has also risen for six consecutive elections, whereas between 1979 and 1992, it was in secular decline.
On balance I still think Labour is in the last chance saloon. It has to get itself back into shape and win in 2028, because if it doesn’t, there is no guarantee of serious consideration, or relevance, or even just survival for a party that would by then have been out of power for a generation. If they lose in 2028, there has to be a very good chance that the next non-Conservative government we eventually see won’t be Labour. Who knows – it could even be conservative!
Last edited 2 years ago by Jon Redman
Matt B
2 years ago
Very illuminating, with revealing detail and personalities deserving of more coverage in Brexit vote debates.
Last edited 2 years ago by Matt B
Matt M
2 years ago
Love the idea of Lindsay Hoyle MP’s dad meeting with Tom Tugendhat MP’s dad to discuss Brexit forty years ago. Things change, but very slowly!
I recall being at a Labour event in the 1980’s where Tony Benn was the main speaker. He described the EEC as “a capitalist club which we should leave” and the room immediately applauding him. Young Corbyn was being mentored by Benn and he had to keep rather quiet around the time of the last(?) referendum all those years later.
not at all. He stated that while he had reservations about the EU as an organisation the process of leaving was going to cause, at the present moment, more problems that it will solve. That we shall just have to see
What if Corbyn had stood as a Euro-sceptic lefty in 2019? He may not have won but would have done better. Apart from anything else, he IS a Euro-sceptic lefty. He lost some credibility by backing Remain, under pressure.
Labour changed when in 1988 Jacques Delors persuaded the party that the EU could reverse Thatcher’s reforms. Thatcher in her Bruges speech of the same year warned about precisely that, and put the Tories on the road to Brexit.
Last edited 2 years ago by Michael James
Richard Slack
2 years ago
It should be pointed out that the Labour Party took a policy of Leaving the EEC into the 1983 election and secured, in terms of its share of the poll, a worse share of the poll than any since. The Labour Party adoption of an anti EEC stance drove significant amounts of support to the Lib/SDP alliance which almost polled as many votes as Labour. With only a handful of Eurosceptic Tories there was no electoral advantage in being anti-EEC and by the end of the decade some Unions were opening offices in Brussels on the grounds that they could negotiate better rights for workers from the EEC than from Thatcher’s Tory Government.
Interestingly enough, the EFTA option would have (probably still does) provided the best alternative. It is true it would involve a nod in the direction of the European Court as a referee for Trade disputes but all Trade Deals require a referee
The left used to oppose membership of the EU, using immigration to undercut wages, using environmentalism to deny the poor economic development, supported freedom of speech against censorship and the interests of working classes against those of the middle classes.
Today, Guardian readers are currently up arms about key workers receiving pay rises, whilst many Conservative voters support greater intervention in the economy. The political sphere has flipped on its head and yet for many voters, blinded by tribalism, their votes are still determined by redundant the stereo types of left and right wing.
Political parties are little more than brand names. The badges remain the same but the ideologies are never fixed. Better to base your vote on for whichever party reflects your interests and values, rather than the colour of the rosette.
Proving the parties are the problem. Get rid of them and let us have rational thinking independent MPs.
Quite right. Modern Labour doesn’t like the workers, and the Tories are anti-business.
A great factual illustration of how far the Labour Party have moved away from supporting the working class people of this country.
I doubt Starmer can “clear the stables” in time for the next election ..
You could argue that Labour MPs and the Conservative MPs are mostly of the same political class (although not necessarily the same social class) – and that ‘policies’ are mostly just mood music.
Labour has a bigger problem in that their membership are still concerned about implementation of significant policy changes which the Labour MPs are not comfortable with. It would need a charismatic leader to convince both parts of the Labour Party to work together.
As I keep saying, since 1945 no government that went into an election with a working majority has lost it to be replaced in office by the opposition with a working majority of its own (the apparent exception in 1970 was in the wake of a change in the voting age).
This constructively means that in 2019 Boris won two terms, not one; Labour will lose again in 2023, because there’s no overturning an 80-odd seat majority in one term.
This helpfully removes Starmer. He’s quite plausible and hard to paint as extreme, so he could have been a threat. But he has been played five years too soon, he clearly doesn’t know what to do about all his anti-Semitic loonies (nor do I – and unlike Militant, these loonies aren’t all members of a helpfully bannable party-within-a-party), and so his talents will thus be wasted. He’s Labour’s William Hague, in effect.
With all that said, since 1945 nobody’s won more than four consecutive elections either. 2023 will be the Conservatives’ fourth win, following 2010, 2015, and 2017. It’s not clear how comparable the two runs are, since the first (1979 – 1992) was four consecutive majorities, whereas the current one has included two minorities and a non-working majority. The Conservative vote has also risen for six consecutive elections, whereas between 1979 and 1992, it was in secular decline.
On balance I still think Labour is in the last chance saloon. It has to get itself back into shape and win in 2028, because if it doesn’t, there is no guarantee of serious consideration, or relevance, or even just survival for a party that would by then have been out of power for a generation. If they lose in 2028, there has to be a very good chance that the next non-Conservative government we eventually see won’t be Labour. Who knows – it could even be conservative!
Very illuminating, with revealing detail and personalities deserving of more coverage in Brexit vote debates.
Love the idea of Lindsay Hoyle MP’s dad meeting with Tom Tugendhat MP’s dad to discuss Brexit forty years ago. Things change, but very slowly!
Truly
I recall being at a Labour event in the 1980’s where Tony Benn was the main speaker. He described the EEC as “a capitalist club which we should leave” and the room immediately applauding him. Young Corbyn was being mentored by Benn and he had to keep rather quiet around the time of the last(?) referendum all those years later.
not at all. He stated that while he had reservations about the EU as an organisation the process of leaving was going to cause, at the present moment, more problems that it will solve. That we shall just have to see
What if Corbyn had stood as a Euro-sceptic lefty in 2019? He may not have won but would have done better. Apart from anything else, he IS a Euro-sceptic lefty. He lost some credibility by backing Remain, under pressure.
Corbyn was spot on there
Labour changed when in 1988 Jacques Delors persuaded the party that the EU could reverse Thatcher’s reforms. Thatcher in her Bruges speech of the same year warned about precisely that, and put the Tories on the road to Brexit.
It should be pointed out that the Labour Party took a policy of Leaving the EEC into the 1983 election and secured, in terms of its share of the poll, a worse share of the poll than any since. The Labour Party adoption of an anti EEC stance drove significant amounts of support to the Lib/SDP alliance which almost polled as many votes as Labour. With only a handful of Eurosceptic Tories there was no electoral advantage in being anti-EEC and by the end of the decade some Unions were opening offices in Brussels on the grounds that they could negotiate better rights for workers from the EEC than from Thatcher’s Tory Government.
Interestingly enough, the EFTA option would have (probably still does) provided the best alternative. It is true it would involve a nod in the direction of the European Court as a referee for Trade disputes but all Trade Deals require a referee