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The Left’s science denial Beware sharing politically convenient stories on social media

Will this scientist's Instragram account be censored next? Credit: Josh Edelson/AFP/ Getty

Will this scientist's Instragram account be censored next? Credit: Josh Edelson/AFP/ Getty


September 7, 2021   6 mins

Cassie Jaye is the director of the documentary The Red Pill about the “men’s rights activism” (MRA) movement. She gave a TEDx talk a few years ago about her plan to expose the movement as a “misogynistic hate group actively working against women’s equality”.

She noticed something. When she interviewed the men’s rights activists, she was enraged by their sexism: but when she went back and transcribed the interviews, she found that the things she had been enraged by were not as clear as she had thought. “I would often hear an innocent and valid point that a MRA would make,” she says, “and in my head I would add on a sexist or anti-woman spin, assuming that was what he wanted to say but didn’t.”

If a man said that there are 2,000 domestic violence shelters for women in the US and only one for men, for instance, she would hear “and therefore we should defund the women’s ones”, rather than “so we should fund more men’s ones”. It’s an interesting watch.

The blogger John Nerst points out that, whether or not you agree with her, there’s something interesting going on here. Her brain was doing something incredibly sophisticated. The MRAs’ comments were being filtered, or spun, or edited, before they reached her conscious mind. They were given tags: untrustworthy, sexist, anti-woman.

As far as her consciousness was concerned, she wasn’t choosing to label them like that: they came to her pre-labelled, by some hidden subroutine in the brain. It was only when she watched it back later, and her own video diaries from the time, that she was able to spot the labels. And the labelling involves quite high-level ideas, things like “misogyny”, not just lizard-brain concepts like “danger, food, potential mate”.

I thought of Jaye, and the strange filtering that our brains do, when I read about the probably nonexistent wave of ivermectin overdoses filling Midwestern US hospitals and preventing medics from treating gunshot victims.

This purported wave got a lot of coverage. Rolling Stone “Gunshot Victims Left Waiting as Horse Dewormer Overdoses Overwhelm Oklahoma Hospitals, Doctor Says.” The Guardian: “Oklahoma hospitals deluged by ivermectin overdoses, doctor says”. The Independent: “Doctor says gunshot victims forced to wait for treatment as Oklahoma hospitals overwhelmed by coronavirus patients.” It’s taken from a report from a local TV channel, which interviewed a rural Oklahoman emergency-room doctor.

As far as I can tell, it’s not true at all. Dr Jason McElyea, the doctor in question, appears to have been saying two things: 1) that he’s seen some ivermectin overdoses and 2) that emergency rooms are overwhelmed, presumably by Covid. The original news video splices these two points together, but I don’t think it’s what McElyea meant; in a follow-up interview with the BBC, he clarified that there was only a “handful” of overdoses, and that the strain on hospital staff was mainly from a surge in Covid cases. One Oklahoman hospital said it hadn’t seen any cases; others may have, but it makes it less likely that there’s a plague of the stuff. (It’s worth noting that Right-wing outlets didn’t cover themselves in glory either: they reported the hospital saying it hadn’t had any cases as disproving the whole story, even though McElyea had never mentioned that hospital and it was in a different bit of Oklahoma.)

To be clear, ivermectin almost certainly doesn’t help prevent or treat Covid and it can be bad for you. But it seems unlikely that there are so many people ingesting it that it’s affecting hospital capacity.

The American Association of Poison Control Centers has released data up to the end of August, showing a marked rise in ivermectin cases — about ten times as many this August as there were in August 2019. But while a tenfold rise sounds impressive, it’s only up from about 40 cases a month in 2019 to 450 a month now, and most of those cases had either no effect or minor effects. For context, about 1,600 people are being hospitalised with Covid every day in Oklahoma alone. It’s silly to take ivermectin, but people doing it are not putting huge strain on the US health service.

The ivermectin story is far from the only one recently. The Guardian among other places, recently reported a story of an “anti-trans Instagram post”, which made “unsubstantiated allegations” about a male-bodied person in a spa exposing themself to women and girls at an LA spa. The piece said experts called it “a case study in how viral misinformation can result in violence”, linking “anti-trans and far-right movements, including QAnon conspiracy theorists, who believe that a cabal of elite pedophiles is manipulating the American government”.

There was a kind of inevitability about the follow-up story last week which found that, in fact, a registered sex offender named Darren Merager had been charged with indecent exposure at the spa. Merager, a trans woman, denies the charges; but at the very least, it’s not a clear-cut example of “viral misinformation” or a conspiracy theory worthy of being linked to QAnon.

As a bit of an aside, this isn’t supposed to happen. The Left views itself as the defender of truth and accuracy, not a purveyor of mistruth. Recently, I reviewed a book, How to Talk to a Science Denier. It was not, I felt, particularly useful. But one thing that I found revealing was the author’s long discussion of whether “left-wing science denial” existed. He chose one example — Left-wing opposition to genetically modified organisms, specifically on safety grounds — and concluded that it sort of did but not really. He based a lot of his thinking on the research of Stephan Lewandowsky, a psychologist at the University of Bristol. There is, I think, a fairly well-established idea that the Left is the “side” of science and evidence, and the Right is the “side” of science “denial”.

I find that strange, because I can think of quite a few areas in which elite Left-wing or liberal opinion doesn’t sit well with mainstream scientific findings.

For instance: the UK Green Party wants to “phase out” nuclear power. Is that “science denial”? I don’t know, but I think the consensus scientific position is that nuclear power is extremely safe and carbon-efficient.

And the idea that human behaviour and society are in some important way the product of evolution has been so profoundly uncomfortable to people on the Left that as far back as 1978 people broke into a lecture the biologist Edward Wilson, shouting “Racist Wilson, you can’t hide, we charge you with genocide” and throwing water over him, after he had written a book, Sociobiology, which was mainly about the behaviour of insects but which speculated that future science could shed some light on human behaviour. Is that “science denial”? Well, again, that’s a question of definitions, but blank slatism is certainly not directly in line with modern scientific findings.

Or take IQ. Your score on an IQ test predicts your success in life pretty well; your career outcomes and earnings, your school results, even your lifespan. It’s also highly heritable. You can find people denying those facts on the Left much more easily than you can find them on the Right, just as you can find people claiming that biological sex isn’t real.

My point isn’t that Left-wing people do this more than Right-wing people, or even that they’re equivalent: I suspect that if you could find some reasonable way of defining terms like “science denial” or “misinformation” (and “Right-wing” and “Left-wing”), you’d probably end up finding that it’s more prevalent on the Right. But, at least in the largely Left-wing or centrist circles I inhabit, it’s almost axiomatic that misinformation is what the Right do. There’s a serious strain of thought that thinks we are the correct ones, and they are the wrong ones.

But the desire to show your political opponents in the worst possible light, or to believe things that are politically convenient rather than things that aren’t, is entirely bipartisan. It’s just easier to spot when the enemy is doing it.

But what interests me is the question of whether people (on the Left or Right) do this on purpose: are they consciously misrepresenting their opponents and ignoring inconvenient truths, or is it a subconscious, automatic thing?

I wrote some months ago about people switching between different definitions of words in highly charged culture-war debates, allowing them to make claims like “cancel culture is/isn’t real”. I’d assumed it was mainly unconscious, but something that people said to me was: this is entirely deliberate. They define words in ways that gain them cultural power: so a Left-winger might very deliberately define “racism” to include “anything that leads to negative outcomes for non-white people”, and a Right-winger might define it as “only explicit acts of intentional racism by an individual”, so as to make the problem as big or as small as you can. Certainly it seems to happen too often for it to be accidental.

Under that model, people share the ivermectin story or the trans-woman-in-the-spa story to damage their political opponents, knowing or not caring that it’s not true. Ivermectin is a Right-coded thing, so showing that Trump-voting rural Oklahomans are taking it in their thousands and gumming up emergency wards shows just how stupid they are.

But the Cassie Jaye MRA thing, I think, reveals another angle. As Nerst describes it, Jaye’s conscious brain wasn’t choosing the most uncharitable interpretations of what the MRAs were saying: her subconscious brain only presented her with uncharitable options. Her conscious, reasoning mind, the bit of us that we consider ourselves, thought it was simply reporting reality, but in fact the version of reality that arrived in front of it had already been screened, and only the politically convenient bits were available to her. Nerst calls this process of only choosing from pre-screened options “semitentionality”: it’s neither an honest mistake nor a cynical misrepresentation, but some weird different third option.

I think that’s what’s going on when people read stories about ivermectin or trans women in spas. It’s not that they deliberately choose the interpretation most convenient to their pre-existing beliefs, or that they’re accidentally choosing the most convenient interpretation time and time again. It’s that the world our brains present to us is brilliantly constructed so that our friends are right and good and the enemy is bad and wrong. It’s not clear how we can improve the situation — but being wary of sharing any politically convenient stories on social media might be a good start.


Tom Chivers is a science writer. His second book, How to Read Numbers, is out now.

TomChivers

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Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago

I think Unherd needs a ‘science writer’ with a more enquiring mind, not one who simply reads the headlines of The Guardian and the like and then regurgitates them to readers.
“To be clear, ivermectin almost certainly doesn’t help prevent or treat Covid and it can be bad for you.But it seems unlikely that there are so many people injecting themselves with it that it’s affecting hospital capacity.”
So says Tom as he blithely buys into the smearing of the drug and completely ignores the peer reviewed paper published in June and the wealth of data proving its efficacy. Not to mention discrediting the safety of a drug that is one of the safest drugs on the planet.

Alka Hughes-Hallett
Alka Hughes-Hallett
3 years ago

Is he even aware, that the topic of bias he is writing on, he is a perfect case study for it? Can a true science writer talk so with such conviction about science ( or a drug etc) without even considering the possibility that he may be wrong? Is he exploring the possibilities or is he just so convinced that the other option is just not viable. There is no exploration in his articles, just his opinion, and he is not even a scientist.
It’s time Unherd looked for a new science writer with science background and without a bias.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago

Hear hear. Oh the irony. It is a fact that the safety of IVM has been discredited by Merck who used to own the patent for decades (with an excellent safety record). And Merck (and Ridgeback) have been given $1.2 billion by the US government to develop a new anti-viral.
Does Chivers not see the huge smoking gun?

Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago

Merk is feverishly working on how to tweak Ivermectin so it does the exact things medically, but they can claim it is a different chemical, and thus get a new patent, and so many billions as the new covid answer.

The Pharma/Medical Complex is the new Military Industrial Complex. Corrupt to the core with lobbyists and kick-backs, the same people working in the Government regulating them leaving that and becoming top paid Pharma employees, with their lists of ‘Contacts’. To them covid was like the Conquistadors stumbling onto the Eldorado gold mines.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Galeti Tavas

The greening of Ivermectin. Sprinkle a little fairy dust on it.

mike otter
mike otter
3 years ago

Check out the New Scientist (AKA No Scientist in our house). It prints wacko articles about gender and skin color issues and its scientific content is near zero. It reminds me of NME and Sounds in the 70s and not in a good way!

Gordon Black
Gordon Black
3 years ago
Reply to  mike otter

I read every copy of New Scientist from late 1956 ’till the end of the 20th century. Then it was hijacked by influences that I cannot comment on here: I have not subscribed this century.

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago

So here we are 18 months into this nonsense and the most heavily vaccinated country Israel has the highest new cases per capita. Here we are staring the failure of their holy grail MRNA vaccines in the face and we still want to pick on Ivermectin. LOL. I don’t know about you but living in the USA.. If I get sick I’m contacting the FLCCC and making sure I follow their protocols. Not the Fauci knock you unconscious… stick a tube down your throat.. and blowout your lungs protocol. I advise people to do their own research ahead of time and get prepared and knowledgeable. Get to know the local laws on becoming a patient advocate. You might be in a position to save somebody’s life. The politized corrupt healthcare system is not on our side. https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago

The last I heard, there was a metastudy pointing to Ivermectin being promising if hardly proved. That conclusion was dominated by the very positive result of the first study – which has since been withdrawn by the preprint server that published it and looks, from internal data, highly like.ly to be fraudulent.

There may be newer and/or different reliable data. If you follow this, can you point me to them?

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

There is a peer reviewed paper published in June. Just google. Also look at the meta-analysis done by Tess Lawrie – conducted by Dr John Campbell – Youtube. It makes fascinating viewing for many reasons. Choose the longer version. It was done in March.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago

No Tess Lawrie for me – I prefer text to video, and scientists to campaigners (whatever their day job), But I did find the June review, and it at least looks like serious science. Detailed analysis is a bit beyond me – and I do have to work today. But I notice 1) that the discredited Egyption trial is still included in the June review, and 2) that the effecive dose in vitro is 20 times the largest in-body dose ever tested in a human, which requires makes 180 times the FDA-reocmmended dose for Ivermection. The June review authonrs, I noted in passing, are speculating about what so far unknown mechanisms might be causing Ivermectin to work at such low concentrations. None of that proves that Ivermectin does not work, but it does mean that all the burden of proof has to be carried by the other trials, and that is quite a hard requirement.

For now I am happy to trust people who have anaysed this in more detail, specifically Tom Chivers. You will have seen his conclusion and the links he bases it on, elsewhere in the page.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Tom Chivers is a lightweight and frankly you will get more on Ivermectin from people commenting on Unherd than anything you will get from Chivers. Dr Tess Lawrie has two doctorates – MBBCH and PhD and is the Director of Evidence based medicine consultancy in Bath UK. She is thus more than well placed to do a meta-analysis (given that this is her day job) on the various Ivermectin trials and was a co-author of the Ivermectin paper published. Continue with your various biases if you prefer.

Mike Poppleton
Mike Poppleton
3 years ago

I note Rasmus’ views on the June paper (which I’ve not seen) and refer you to my earlier reply to you, Lesley. Specifically, the Cochrane review. Clearly, it’s taken a more negative view of the various studies than the Lawrie review. That’s science for you … a public process of presenting & evaluating evidence, debating it, and building towards consensus when there’s enough evidence to be clear. We’re not there yet on this one. In large part because there’s no big funding like there is behind the big authoritative trials done on new drugs.
It seems harsh to be so negative about Tom – his analysis seems fine to me. Not having the letters behind his name doesn’t count against his analysis.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

I agree – I rather trust the amount of time that Tom spends researching these matters on my behalf. But the thrust of the article was actually about how we process information. Brain theory years ago was that we actively filter out that which we dont want to contemplate. It is clear now that we can actually only comprehend that info which we already have a ‘template’ for in our brains ie if we fill our brains intensely with a certain belief then we automatically assess new info in terms of that pre existing belief. And that internal belief system will only modify if we CHOOSE to consider new thoughts/beliefs . This is the biological reason that underpins the reality that it is very hard to change the beliefs of an individual if they refuse to consider alternatives. It also explains why humans are destroying their planet and continuously oppressing each other (once you also factor in epic narcissism aka selfishness and the arrogance that springs from that ). Thanks Tom for working to keep us informed !

Dan Croitoru
Dan Croitoru
3 years ago

I tend to believe Ivermectin is probably beneficial but your Campbell is not a Dr but rather a retired A&E nurse (a clerk basically) in short a charlatan playing whichever opinion brings him more YT views on his monetized channel

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Dan Croitoru

He is called Dr John Campbell on his channel (and he isn’t mine) – but I’m not particularly interested in his doctorate. I am interested in the doctorates of DR Tess Lawrie. He provided the forum for the discussion.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lesley van Reenen
Mike Poppleton
Mike Poppleton
3 years ago
Reply to  Dan Croitoru

I do wish people would check their claims, especially when used to back up insults. You can see details of John Campbell’s PhD on his LinkedIn entry.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago

Thanks. For now I still go with Tom Chivers opinion, on the assumption he has red this too and thought about it longer. But I shall try to find time to read this paper properly.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Now WHERE is the laugh button 🙂

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago

A good laugh is always healthy, but this is a proper scientific paper, not a video. Hence I ought to read it.

As for ‘Tom Chivers is a lightweight’, I judge him on his arguments and his writing, which I find very convincing. He may not have the deepest understanding of immunology, but I believe he is capable of analysing conflicting scientific literature and reach a conclusion based on the evidence with a minimum of personal bias.

As for Tess Lawrie, well I have a PhD myself, and I know full well (as C.S.Lewis said) that ‘Rasmus is a PhD scientist and a total idiot’ is *not* an oxymoron. Her record shows that she has the technical skills and background knowledge to do a proper meta-analysis, but then so do a lot of other people who may not necessarily agree with her. I have no idea what her judgement or her reputation among her colleagues is like, or how biased she might or might not be on this particular issue. At least two Nobel prize winners (who are obviously much cleverer than I) have taken positions on COVID that I judge to be ill-advised, considering what most of their colleagues are saying. If she is right, the balance of papers and of professional opinion will eventually swing her way. Meanwhile she deserves to have her paper read and compared with competing opinions, but I am not taking her unsupported word, no matter how many doctorates she has.

Laura Creighton
Laura Creighton
3 years ago

Rasmus asked for a reference, I gave it to him, and somebody downvoted that? People are strange.

Chris Clark
Chris Clark
3 years ago

There! An up vote for you for posting an interesting link.
Why isn’t everyone delighted that new therapeutics are being investigated for Covid-19 infections now that we know the current vaccines aren’t preventing transmission? Monoclonal cocktails, ivermectin and any other repurposed drugs that might be effective and certainly aren’t harmful should only be greatly desired! No politics required here. Just verifiable results.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Clark

Why? Because they follow corporate media, believe compromised organisations like the WHO and FDA (who criminally continues to make reference to the ‘horse drug’ in its headlines). They also believe their doctor knows best, do not have enquiring minds and trust that pharmaceutical companies are in it for the benefit of humankind.

Karl Juhnke
Karl Juhnke
3 years ago

Everything with ivermectin is being purposely muddied. Peer review is no longer trustworthy. The institutions are broken. I believe the thousands of doctors who where and are treating patients successfully without vaccines than bureaucrats and big pharma spokespersons.

mark63
mark63
3 years ago

This meta-analysis uses the discredited Elgazzar study, which was withdrawn and massively skewed the results of any meta-analysis that included it. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w

mike otter
mike otter
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

This may or may not be true, but does not mean much for the eficacy of the drug, after all fentanyl has been sold for decades. Its bit like cannabis – of the 250m or so users 95% feel it is beneficial and 5% go mad or ossify in a stoned stupor. If remdesivir /chloroquine/ivermectin work the users will know. The drugs’ formulae are out there – the dark web is ready. If they work they’ll sell like lemon shatter.

Last edited 3 years ago by mike otter
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
3 years ago

I’m afraid I have to disagree. I have always found Tom’s writing to be interesting, informative and balanced.

Ian Morris
Ian Morris
3 years ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Nothing personal but whenever I see the word “balanced” I get irritated. What we need is truth and accuracy not balance.

Andrew Raiment
Andrew Raiment
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Morris

Objective truth is balanced, absolute truth does not exist in my opinion. Data without analysis or qualification is worthless.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Morris

Me too, at least regarding science. So many treat discussion of science issues, where there is a truth to be discovered, like political discussions, where there is no absolute truth.

Karl Juhnke
Karl Juhnke
3 years ago

Of course there is absolute truth. Example. I am Karl Juhnke. You can argue all you like, but the fact remains; I am Karl Juhnke. In science the truth is always there, but attaining that truth may take some discussion and time.

Karl Schuldes
Karl Schuldes
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Morris

Also, it’s never balanced.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

The fact is that he is NOT well placed to talk about Ivermectin – that much is clear – and the Bangladesh article was woeful. On and on it goes.

John Snowball
John Snowball
3 years ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Perhaps, but this particular piece is not balanced.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago

To understand science, you must have scientific training. A peer-reviewed paper does not mean that something is correct. Rather, it is a challenge to prove that it is wrong. Only when something is repeated (perhaps many times) does it become ‘true. Back in the 1970s there were many peer-reviewed papers which showed that smoking was good for you.

For a theory to be wrong does not mean that a scientist has been corrupted. You start with a theory which sounds plausible and you design an experiment to prove it is right. Sometimes, you are so sure that you tilt the experiment in your favour – not on purpose but because we are all human beings. You publish a paper with your findings. The peer review merely says that you seem to have followed a reasonable method and that your maths are correct. NOT, that your findings are correct.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I’m familiar with the scientific ‘process’ and how peer reviews work. Certainly a peer reviewed paper is better than a preprint. Please feel free to go deeper into the meta analysis of trials regarding Ivermectin which is well covered in Dr Tess Lawrie’s video with Dr John Campbell. It is very thorough (which is why I suggest it). I am fairly sure that a non-compromised doctor of evidence based medicine who has done this work pro bono carries more heft than Tom Chivers.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lesley van Reenen
Jonathan Bagley
Jonathan Bagley
3 years ago

Please find me a paper appearing in a reputable journal in the 1970s, claiming smoking is good for you.

Mel Bass
Mel Bass
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Even repetition does not necessarily mean truth. Back in the day, when I was still in research, I carried out an experiment that gave me some beautifully clear results. Repeated it numerous times, with identical, statistically significant results. It seemed to prove a point very clearly, but it was an aside to my main research and I put it aside for a few months until I had time to look at it again. Planned to publish, but decided to repeat the experiment, just on a hunch. Just as well I did, because none of my new results ever matched the first set and I was never able to replicate them, so the whole idea was junked, thankfully before I’d embarrassed myself in the public domain. I wonder how many similar ‘fluke’ sets of data get peer-reviewed, published and accepted as fact, perhaps even as dogma?

Dr Stephen Nightingale
Dr Stephen Nightingale
3 years ago

It staggers me that so many people put so much apparent weight on a single ‘per-reviewed’ study saying one thing about one drug, and yet denigrate 200 years of study on vaccination, and moreover choose to prefer political and religious conduits of information over their Doctor, whom they have hitherto trusted with their health.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
3 years ago

As one who frequently needs to explain the details of my not-that-rare medical condition to new doctors whose services I need to engage, I find the last part laughable. So many GPs I run into do not keep up with their education (at least in the US).

Hosias Kermode
Hosias Kermode
3 years ago

My grandmother said “you’re a fool or your own doctor by the time you’re 40”. In other words doctors don’t always know better just because they are doctors. Some are terrific most adequate and some terrible. Lived experience is valid. And vaccination isn’t one thing. Some vaccines protect for a lifetime, others only for months like flu vaccine. In the latter case it’s worth doing a risk benefit analysis. I did and decided against.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago

As a doctor, I would suggest that you don’t assume that IVM and the vaccine are mutually exclusive.

Bob Pugh
Bob Pugh
3 years ago

It would be great but most so called “science writers” are liberal arts graduates with no hard science knowledge to speak of.

Michael Craig
Michael Craig
3 years ago

Incredibly lazy and sloppy writer, not to have researched how Ivermectin has been used in tremendously successful Covid treatment protocols. Doctors Kory, McCulloch, et al., and if you seriously want to get up to speed, check doctors4covidethics.org.
These are serious times, and you need to do your homework to avoid misinforming your readers. At the very least, you should apologize and add a correction to that paragraph of yours.

Eric Wadley
Eric Wadley
3 years ago

Exacty. Ironic.

John Snowball
John Snowball
3 years ago

I fully agree with you. Tom Chivers’ article is heavily affected by his own prejudices (and ignorance, frankly). I hadn’t read your comment when I posted my own.

Jerry Smith
Jerry Smith
3 years ago

Quite so – as UnHerd’s science writer he ought to give sources for his opijnions.My own mind is open on the subject but this sort of arrogance is itself anti-science.

Peter Hughes
Peter Hughes
3 years ago
Reply to  Jerry Smith

Perhaps Tom should follow the advice from his own book and practice what he preaches rather than make assumption of certainty which don’t exist!

David Bell
David Bell
3 years ago

It’s a pity, as most of the article is good and insightful But it then falls into exactly the trap it is trying to explain to us.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
3 years ago

A drug can’t be ‘smeared’ – rather revealing language. His comment that “ivermectin almost certainly doesn’t help prevent or treat Covid and it can be bad for you” is reasonable and represents the scientific consensus as far as I can see. Which is why it isn’t licensed as a covid treatment anywhere. One study in its own does not make the ccase. IAnd an absolute calumny aagainst Tom Chivers, who is an excellent science writer and has won

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Would you prefer the word ‘discredited’.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago

My final takeaway from this, is that Tom Chivers thought that humans are ‘injecting’ Ivermectin. I copied and pasted the paragraph. I notice that it is now changed to ‘ingesting’. I will certainly bring this up again.

Mike Poppleton
Mike Poppleton
3 years ago

Tom’s analysis of the story about ivermectin overdoses overloading hospitals is backed up closely by Scott Alexander’s piece:
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/too-good-to-check-a-play-in-three
As for “ ivermectin almost certainly doesn’t help” … John Campbell’s 24 June video reports a meta-analysis by Tess Lawrie et al which finds that “Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible” … albeit on small clinician-led studies involving 3406 participants. A Cochrane review on 28th July on the other hand found that “Based on the current very low‐ to low‐certainty evidence, we are uncertain about the efficacy and safety of ivermectin used to treat or prevent COVID‐19.” https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD015017.pub2/full
So there we have the heated polarised public debate … and the detailed judgment that the scientific jury is out. I’m afraid I don’t know the “peer reviewed paper published in June” you refer to, Lesley. A meta-analysis is the best review of scientific opinion, covering many peer-reviewed papers and judging their quality. So while Tom’s summary of ivermectin utility on ivermectin is more negative than the current scientific uncertainty, it’s not so far off the mark as to justify accusations of not having an insufficiently “enquiring mind”, or of “smearing” the drug.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
3 years ago

I work in the engineering industry, mostly oil and gas.

Surrounded by scientists of the practical kind in my everyday work, I can’t say that I’ve ever had the feeling the the left is the side of truth and science.

But I don’t know – my colleagues don’t spend much of , or any, of their time discussing politics.

A Spetzari
A Spetzari
3 years ago

This.
What we’re seeing is the radicalisation of mainstream views, in this case now the Left. People with more extreme political views don’t tend to be too rational when they come across something that contradicts their dearly held beliefs.

mike otter
mike otter
3 years ago

Normal people in heavy industry and construction, manufacturing etc, where information is critical to safety and even life. Quite the opposite in academia/media/arts that have all blended into a brown, smelly mess.

Last edited 3 years ago by mike otter
Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago

“Lysenkoism
Lysenkoism was a political campaign led by Trofim Lysenko against genetics and science-based agriculture in the mid-20th century, rejecting natural selection in favour of a form of Lamarckism, as well as expanding upon the techniques of vernalization and grafting.”

Stalin backed Lysenko and millions starved to failed agriculture, and thousands of scientists died in Gulags as they were Darwinian believers.

Now days the same thing exists, and will eventually be known as Faucism.

Karl Juhnke
Karl Juhnke
3 years ago
Reply to  Galeti Tavas

Love it.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
3 years ago

The problem is the “Left” is a conglomerate of various victim groups, feminist women, gays, blacks, muslims….

And the problem is two fold
Firstly, their only agenda is self benefit in the name of victimhood, which implies ignoring data and analysis.

For instance how do you deal with the following facts: Men comprise most suicides, work deaths, tough jobs, and half of domestic violence victims. Simple: you must “deny Science” ie ignore facts or twist them in a non scientific way.

The second problem is that the beliefs of these groups, while pretending to be noble and virtuous, is very close to what they accuse supposed “right wingers” to be.
– Who are the most viciously sexist or hate the other sex? Not men. Rapists are treated like scum by other convicts when they go to jail.
– Most racist? The ones who complain about structural racism / 17th century slavery but commit most inter race crimes and treat Whites and Indians as 2nd class citizens when in majority.
– Most anti immigrant, and bigoted against other beliefs? The ones who claim “phobia” against their religion but brutally suppress other faiths wherever in majority.

And hence, again, science must be denied.

Last edited 3 years ago by Samir Iker
Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
3 years ago

I simply don’t understand what Chivers has against Ivermectin. (1) The overwhelming anecdotal evidence suggests it works. (2) A recent RCT in India on health care workers demonstrated that Ivermectin had a ~80% protective effect when administered prophylactically. (3) Ivermectin is listed as an essential drug by the WHO (as is hydroxychloroquine). (4) Ivermectin has been prescribed to literally billions of people since it’s introduction 35-40 years ago with no untoward effects when administered in the correct dose (200-300 micrograms per kg on day 1, 200-300 micrograms/kg 72 hrs later, and again the same dose a week later). Obviously if you overdose there will be major problems, as there is if you overdose on paracetamol, tylenol or ibuprofen.
Chivers: if you want to be an objective science/medical writer, try and get rid of your massive confirmation bias (that comes through in so many of your articles, including the one about the Bangladesh mask study which showed a nothing burger 9% effect irrespective of whether it was statistically significant or not) and try to be a little objective. Or are you simply a shill for the pharmaceutical industry and their pandemic profiteering.

Last edited 3 years ago by Johann Strauss
Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

“Or are you simply a chill for”

Shill? Then my ‘strange brain filtering phenomenon‘ says yes.

Today I got out of bed feeling more tired than I had been last night, weary, and very poor – with a cough, and figured this is it, I have covid, again. The day dragged, I had no energy, and this evening I took my 1 gram of Horse de-wormer (Ivermectin), zinc, vitamin C and D and Quercetin, and have been watching my temp, and using my pulse-oxyometer. The greatest worry is how very much just deserts and Karma it is if I do die from it, having refused the ‘vaccine’ and being a total non-masker, and how undignified it would be to be a hospitalized ‘Denier’, like the MSM is full of. We will see.

P.S., I washed it all down with juice and some ice cream wile watching George Gammon on ‘Klaus Schwab, and The Great Reset’ (and Schwab’s cat Mr Bigglesworth). An excellent video on the Global Elites coming for your freedom done in a light and fun White board presentation. https://odysee.com/@Truth_will_set_You_Free:0/Global-Elite%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9CGreat-Reset%E2%80%9D-Agenda-Revealed,-George-Gammon-2020:e

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Oh so funny. I was also going to suggest he was a shill for the pharmaceutical industry and then didn’t. I was going to select Merck!

Last edited 3 years ago by Lesley van Reenen
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

There has been overwhelming anecdotal evidence in favour of all kinds of treatments that have later been proven to be totally useless. When faced with a deadly disease with no reliable cure, people will latch on to anything that allows them to feel less impotent, and they will convince themselves that the cure is saving them. Those who die anyway say nothing, and true believers remaining convince themselves that it was al because it was not administered right, or early enough, or whatever.

Medicine knows through long, bitter experience that anecdotal evidence by itself is not only worthless, but misleading. I will grant you that Ivermectin is safe, but showing that it actually works requires the usual proper trials. Unless you are deliberately promoting a placebo?

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Are you a medical doctor? Are you a scientist? You seem to be well read and write well but loaded with confirmation bias and a rather closed mind. And if I recall correctly from previous comments you have latched on to the utility of surgical/cloth masks for which there is no data showing their utility in the community. Yes surgical/cloth masks are a great safety blanket, sort of like thumb sicking in babies and young children. But you may as well go around wearing a 17th century plague mask!
Here is the thing though. You get COVID and you have a choice. Stay at home, do nothing and wait for “God” to decide your fate, since you won’t be admitted to hospital until you can barely breathe and are on death’s door. Or you can try something that’s completely harmless with a fantastic safety record over a period of 35-40 years that’s been administered to literally billions of people. My choice would be simple: I try and do something and that something is Ivermectin (in the correct dosage), doxycycline or azythromicin, vit D, vit C and zinc. Might all be useless. The effect might just be a placebo effect. But the mind is a very powerful entity and plays a very significant role in the immune system, maintaining health and fighting off disease. So if you take something that you believe has a positive effect and what you take has a very good safety record, why not. It sure can’t do any harm. That’s the rub of the matter.
And by the way, all the great advances in medicine in the 19th and early 20th century were made by observation and not through randomized controlled trials.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I’ll admit that the evidence for masks is somewhat uncertain, and that a feeling of ‘at least doing something’ is part of the reason people do it (just like for other unproven treatments). There is also a signal function: wearing a mask signals you are careful about COVID and willing to take some trouble to preserve other people’s health. Refusing to wear a mask signals the opposite (I could put it more strongly than that), which means you are more dangerous to be around even if masks do not work after all. Which of course has nothing to do with science. If you feel safer taking Ivermectin and vitamin supplements (or homeopathy, or acupuncture, or a vegan diet, …), there is nothing wrong with that. I might even do it myself, were it not that placebo effect only works if you believe in the treatment, and I could not convince myself to believe a treatment that did not have proper scientific underpinnings, but that is a matter of personal choice.

But in terms of public health recommendations, I still think that masks are a much better bet than Ivermectin, in the absence of solid proof for either. Unlike masks, recommending a prophylactic drug will encourage people to think they, personally, are safe, which makes them reluctant to take other measures that are known to help: vaccination, social distancing, … and unwilling to take measures to protect others (after all, they only have to take Ivermectin too, right?). Masks, whether they work or not, at least do not fool people into thinking they are safe when they are not.

PS. I am a scientist of sorts, but not in medicine, epidemiology or anything that close. So I know a little about how the game works, but i claim no authority beyond what you can see directly in my posts.

Last edited 3 years ago by Rasmus Fogh
Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Let’s agree to disagree.
With regard to surgical/cloth masks I would argue that they serve as safety blankets/thumb sucking to make people feel safer and as a method to virtue signal. Here is the truth of the matter. Surgical/cloth masks simply offer next to zero protection and nobody in the know has ever claimed otherwise. The claim was that surgical/cloth masks act as a method of course control by preventing direct forward emission of droplets containing virus. From a physics perspective this is a much easier thing to do than protection. Had this hypothesis been correct, the pandemic would have been over within about 6 weeks in places where strict mask mandates were in place. But in real life, in the community surgical/cloth masks have had next to no effect. Further, you only need look at how they are generally worn to realize how useless they are given that there are huge gaps top and bottom and on both sides. Now, it turns out that the major route of transmission is not droplet spread but aerosol spread (which should have been obvious given that transmission of all respiratory viruses is going to be the same as they are all of similar size and composition). For aerosol spread, the aerosol is going to follow the path of least resistance – i.e. the gaps top and bottom and sides. Just take a puff of a cigarette or vape, and blow it out gently while wearing a surgical mask and you’ll immediately see just how much gets out.
So the question really is what should be done to protect oneself. The only mask worth considering is a fitted N95/FFP2 mask. Right now there is no shortage and these could well be used but unfortunately they are extremely difficult to wear for any length of time (feel tight and irritating, increased work of breathing, etc….). So what to do. The simplest thing is simply to avoid crowded, poorly ventilated indoor spaces or if one has to venture into such spaces, spend the absolute minimum amount of time there. Do that and your risk of catching COVID is very small indeed.
Now as for ivermectin, the antibiotics and vitamins, there is good “anecdotal” evidence in favor. Vitamin D and zinc play a very important role in the innate immune system, and the vast majority are severely deficient in vitamin D. No surprise, since many spend most of their time indoors rather than outside. As for antibiotics, sure they have no anti-viral effect but they do prevent secondary bacterial pneumonia, and in that regard it is worth remembering that a paper by none other than Anthony Fauci showed, from histology samples, that in the 1919 flu pandemic the major cause of death was actually secondary bacterial pneumonia and not viral pneumonia.
Finally, going back to surgical/cloth masks you have the rather delicate issue that in people’s mind they think they are protective. The result is that they engage in more, not less, risky behavior. So for example, they won’t hesitate getting closer to people or entering crowded, poorly ventilated indoor spaces. A sporting analogy would be a comparison of rugby (whether league or union) versus American football. The players wear no protection of any significant kind in rugby but they are covered with “body armor” in American football. And where do you think most of the severe head and brain injuries occur – in American football or in rugby. Well not surprisingly in the former because the players think they can head-butt at will and are protected by their helmets when in fact they really are not protected anywhere near well enough given what they’re doing with their heads.

Last edited 3 years ago by Johann Strauss
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

You have some reasonable points – and, yes, this is a good place to stop.
My pleasure

Laura Creighton
Laura Creighton
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

The placebo effect absolutely, positively works on people who do not believe in the treatment. Whatever it is that makes it work, it is not merely ‘conscious belief’.
Masks have definitely fooled poeple into thinking they are safe. You get 90 year olds thinking that they can take the tram into town to do the shopping, because, after all everybody is wearing a mask.

Last edited 3 years ago by Laura Creighton
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Like Remdesivir? That seems to have caught the public imagination – or wait, maybe there is some money in it. Hmmm. Follow the money with anything to do with pharmaceuticals.

Sheryl Rhodes
Sheryl Rhodes
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Rasmus, it’s refreshing to see that you acknowledge that Ivermectin is safe, that’s wonderful. Has anyone else noticed that simple fact is missing in media reports and scientific “discussion?”
Because taking a correct dosage of Ivermectin has been shown to be a safe action, why don’t we have the right to try it?
I don’t know if Ivermectin is effective, but I suspect that it could be if given early. Again, why don’t I have the basic human right to make the choice of ingesting a non-lethal dose of a safe medicine?
In the US, I can find doctors who will abort a healthy pregnancy at any stage, just because I say that continuing the pregnancy will harm my mental health. I can choose to get dangerous plastic surgery to make grotesque modifications to my body, no problem.
But I can’t take a safe drug which very well may work? Why not? I’ll tell you why not. It’s because public health policy is, for better or worse, all about covert nudging. The current Covid policies are aimed at achieving maximum vaccination and/or lockdown type measures. I’m not given choices because I might make the choice to treat a Covid infection instead of getting a vax or instead of hiding inside my house for the rest of my life.
I am vaxxed. AND it appears that I am not “safe” from being infected with Covid so I would very much like to have the choice to try some other treatment options.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Sheryl Rhodes

You have the right to try it – they are not gong to throw you in prison for taking Ivermectin, are they? Helping you get it, or recommending your choice to people at large is another matter. The best information of the professionals is that Ivermectin is useless and a false hope. They have not only the right, but the duty to discourage Ivermectin and encourage other treatments that are known to actually work.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Surely you mean a certain group of professionals. Because certainly not all medical doctors, including highly respected and qualified ones such as Peter McCullough agree with either your assessment or the assessment of the so-called professionals. Be aware of the tyranny of so-called experts.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Rasmus, is this man a quack? Because he is the person who first included Ivermectin as treatment in the USA (based on other successes) and still promotes it (owing to personal success) – or perhaps you still prefer listening to Chivers:
Paul E. Marik, MD, FCCP, FCCM – Professor of Medicine and Chief of the Division of Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine at the Eastern Virginia Medical School in Norfolk, Virginia
“Dr Marik received his medical degree from the University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa. He was an ICU attending at Baragwanath Hospital, in Soweto, South Africa. During this time he obtained a Master of Medicine Degree, Bachelor of Science Degree in Pharmacology, Diploma in Anesthesia as well as a Diploma in Tropical Medicine and Hygiene. Dr Marik did a Critical Care Fellowship in London, Ontario, Canada, during which time he was admitted as a Fellow to the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeon of Canada. Dr Marik has worked in various teaching hospitals in the US since 1992. He is board certified in Internal Medicine, Critical Care Medicine, Neurocritical Care and Nutrition Science. Dr Marik is currently Professor of Medicine and Chief of Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine, Eastern Virginia Medical School in Norfolk, Virginia. Dr Marik has written over 400 peer reviewed journal articles, 50 book chapters and authored four critical care books.”
I have heard he has been cited about 40,000 times.
Is he always right? Probably not – as thought leaders are often more exposed. That said, he is still a practicing clinician – his team has been treated numerous Covid patients.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago

This link was recommended by Johan Strauss, and I very much back it As the author says, there is evidence for ivermectin you can hang your hat on if that is what you want, and several qualified and apparently sincere people are backing it intensely. He also says that he is surprised that these qualified people (including Marik) would go out on a limb for ivermectin, seeing that the evidence is rather on the inconclusive side, So far he says, and I concur, ivermectin is definitely on ‘shows promise, but more likely than not to be ineffective’.

The fact that a man is highly qualified, and sincere, and works with COVID patients, is not enough to validate a minority opinion. Reliability only comes in when his colleagues look at the numbers and do not find any obvious holes. It is a well-known mechanism, and a trap that you learn about in research: You are looking at noisy and confusing data, in this case a series of patients where most survive and some die, and where the outcome can depend on all kinds of things. You very much want to find a significant pattern, be it to make a discovery or to save your patients, and you look through the noise to find one. Human beings are great at finding patterns in noise, even where they are not there. So far normal, we all do it. Next step is to check to make sure that this is properly supported by the data and you are not being led astray. But it is a temptation to make an emotional commitment to your discovery, convince yourself that this is real (without sufficient evidence), and henceforth do advocacy rather than evaluation of the data. It happens in all fields of science, and is eventually sorted out as our colleagues are either convinced by the accumulated evidence – or not. Still, responsible behaviour requires that you are aware of these traps, and avoid jumping to conclusions in your public statements – lest you do a lot of damage and end up as a scare story for PhD students. “Never think what you want to think before you know what you need to know” [Reginald V. Jones].

From that article – which I trust – I’d say that the chance of Ivermectin having any beneficial effect is real but not great. One in eight? I cannot quantify it. The bigger the benefit you hope to get from ivermectin, the .lower the chance it is there, and getting a complete cure/prevention is really rather unlikely. The hard question is, given these numbers, whether we should make it available and implicitly recommend it, giving people peace of mind and an additional chance, but most likely giving them false hope. Or whether we should refuse to encourage them to take chances based on false information and direct them towards measures (like vaccinations) that are actually known to work.

Sheryl Rhodes
Sheryl Rhodes
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

My doctor won’t prescribe it and I can’t get information about what doctors in my area may be willing to prescribe. My pharmacy won’t fill scrips for off-label use of Ivermectin even though it’s safe. If I become symptomatic, there is a very short window of opportunity to acquire a scrip and begin treatment.
This situation effectively denies me a right to try Ivermectin, even though some licensed doctors in some other states are willing to prescribe it. Meanwhile if I were still an adolescent I could reliably get an off-label use of Lupron to block puberty for years while I figure out my gender identity.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Sheryl Rhodes

As you can see above, my guess is that the chance of ivermectin being any significant help at all stand at about one in eight, with much worse odds for it being a effective cure. If we could agree about some ballpark numbers there would be no particular reason to prevent people form taking it and hope – much as they take vitamin C against the common cold. As long as ivermectin is trumpeted it as a ‘safe and effective’ cure, and a reason you do not need to take precautions or get vaccinated, it may be more important to prevent people from basing their life and health on a falsehood.

Sheryl Rhodes
Sheryl Rhodes
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Rasmus said “As long as ivermectin is trumpeted it as a ‘safe and effective’ cure, and a reason you do not need to take precautions or get vaccinated, it may be more important to prevent people from basing their life and health on a falsehood.”
I understand the argument, but I was not put on this earth to be prevented from living my life as best I can, using my own brain and experience. Nor should I be denied a choice because others will make the “wrong” choice.
For instance, many (most?) people who are diagnosed with a serious disease like cancer will make a rational choice to undergo modern medical treatment—AND they will make changes in their lifestyle, actions, and diet that have not been clinically “proven” to work.
 They will try acupuncture, hypnosis, crystals, reiki, Chinese medicine, sage-burning, prayer, visualization, endless variations of diet, and any number of vitamins and minerals. Those who choose ONLY these alternative methods sometimes die when they would likely have lived if they had also used proven medical treatments, but we do not forbid these actions and we do not (for the most part) censure those who advocate for them.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Sheryl Rhodes

It is a difficult choice, and you have a very good point. Where is becomes hard for me is if you propose that sage-burning (or Ivermectin) should be distributed and promoted by the health system on equal footing with chemotherapy (or vaccination). And since Ivermectin is only really available through the health system there is no good way to fudge it. Anyway, I would not claim that the current policy is obviously or necessarily right – only that the opposite policy is not either.

Sheryl Rhodes
Sheryl Rhodes
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Appreciate your thoughtful reply.
I think the general idea is not to promote Ivermectin distribution and promotion by the health system “on equal footing” with vaccination. That would be bad. And unnecessary. It’s simply a safe, potentially beneficial medication that I think I should have the right to try IF I or my family were to get the virus.
I recently met a man who lost his elderly mother to the virus last winter. She lived in England and he in the US. He and his wife BEGGED her physician to at least try administering some of the safe-yet-not-100%-proven-treatments available, such as a medically-administered version of Vitamin D, but the system refused to accommodate. Nothing was even tried, it was just “Well I guess you should just accept your fate.”

Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Does he want to be a science writer though? Or just someone who explores how we respond to science writing?

Tom Chivers
Tom Chivers
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Look, I’m sorry, the odds of ivermectin being a useful treatment for covid are pretty slim. The biggest trial has been withdrawn for severe issues with the data. The quality of trials in general is low. The meta-analyses don’t seem to do any sort of adjustment for publication bias or similar issues, and rely heavily on the withdrawn trial.
I’ve already said I think doctors should be allowed to prescribe ivermectin, and I slightly wish I’d written that it “probably” rather than “almost certainly” won’t work, but the fact is that the evidence for it is shonky. I’d lay odds at two to one that the Principle trial comes back and reports that it is not effective.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
3 years ago
Reply to  Tom Chivers

Tom, I appreciate you’re doing your best but you are simply not qualified to judge whether Ivermectin is useful or not. In the context of a pandemic, randomized controlled trials are somewhat unethical and very difficult to conduct. And in the case of COVID especially difficult to conduct because you have to recruit people into the trial within 24 hr of the onset of infection. If I’m not mistaken the current Oxford trial is recruiting up to 7 or more days following onset in which case of course the results will be negative. Second, RCTs are like a juggernaut. They are not nimble and you cannot change protocols as you go along. So use the wrong protocol, don’t combine ivermectin with the correct other components (vit D, vit C Zn and azythromycin/doxycyline), give too much or too little, and you get a negative result. So in the context of a pandemic, I place far more trust in individual practicing doctors treating thousands of patients than any trial. And I too will lay odds that the Ivermectin Principle trial will not show anything because it was designed to fail.
Incidentally, while I write under a pseudonym I am both a scientist and a medical doctor at a none too shabby, rather well known medical research institution.
And lastly you might like to google a youtube video by Dr. John Campbell entitled “Ivermectin prophylactic study from India”. No doubt there are issues with the design of the trial but Ivermectin sure seemed to have a large and significant beneficial effect in health care workers when taken prophylactically. Admittedly the duration of the study was only a month, but still.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Unfortunately your flexibility is a certain recipe for biased results. You get lots of individual results, all with slightly different combinations, then after the fact you select the combinations that add up to the result you want. Hey, presto, proof! With that much flexibility it becomes impossible to disprove an effect, because you can always find a way to rescue the outcome you want. Trials are supposed to be rigid and inflexible. They need to be to keep people honest and stop them from from using their imagination to fool themselves – and everybody else. Which all of us will do if given half a chance.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Johann, I see you also mention the Principle trial and its flaw. Interestingly the Israeli RCT used a (too) low dose, but they still got positive results.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago

Superseded by post below

Last edited 3 years ago by Rasmus Fogh
Mike Smith
Mike Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I have seen this cocktail of drugs recently, promoted by a Russian doctor. Russian doctors prescribe antibiotics like Smarties so seeing 2 antibiotics on the list tells me this is BS. Antibiotics have no effect on a virus so should not be being used. I would be more inclined to believe it if antivirals had been proposed (like Zovirax which worked wonders on my shingles once), but they are usually very expensive whereas anti-Malaria and anti-worm treatments are cheap (odd that). The vitamins are fine.
If Ivermectin and hydrocloroquine are taken in safe dosages in the hope they might work, then why not. But if the patient gets over Covid, it doesn’t necessarily mean they had any part to play. I think this is where the idea they work comes from. I suspect both drugs are plentiful and cheap in the third world and may have been prescribed by doctors there since they had little else to try. When some patients survived, this was hailed as a miracle cure, when in fact they might have survived anyway.

Last edited 3 years ago by Mike Smith
Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
3 years ago
Reply to  Mike Smith

Actually hydroxychloroquine was first promoted for COVID in France but I guess you classify France as a 3rd world country!! Ivermectin was first used for COVID in Australia, another 3rd world country in your view I guess!
As for antibiotics you are absolutely wrong. The reason is that a potential and important direct cause of death in any viral pneumonia is not the viral pneumonia but a superseding 2nd bacterial pneumonia. That was the main cause of death, for example, during the Spanish flu pandemic of 1919, something that was demonstrated from careful analysis of histology samples by known other than America’s doctor, the good Dr. Fauci himself.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago
Reply to  Tom Chivers

Tom Chivers, you are saying exactly what the pharmaceutical companies want you to say. More than one trial has been withdrawn for issues with data – as they should be. That is the scientific process. Meanwhile people in many countries are taking the drug – with and without the help of their doctors – with extremely good results – in trials and also observationally.
As for the Principle trial, if anything it is designed to fail. It takes participants up to 14 days from onset of symptoms, when viral replication peaks at day 3. It is critical that Ivermectin be given prophylactically and/or immediately on the onset of symptoms, therefore the ‘rigorously designed’ trial is significantly flawed.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago

Immediately on the onset of symptoms would be pretty impossible to do informed consent on. Profylactically would require thousands or tens of thousands of volunteers in a trial. Is it really too much to ask that you get some kind of proof of efficiency before you do that? As for people taking the drug “with extremely good results – in trials and also observationally”, well if we knew that for sure the question would be solved. The reason the medical establishment wants reliable, cumbersome trials is that the other kind is highly vulnerable, to bias and misinformation – and in short does not give reliable results. Trusting the evaluation of people who think they already know the answer is not a way to get to the truth.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Actually the reason that “the medical establishment” wants reliable cumbersome trials often times is two-fold: (a) they are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies; and (b) they have forgotten how to actually practice the ART of medicine. Yes it’s an art and different treatment protocols often times require fine tuning by the attending physician. Indeed, in cancer therapy there is a lot of fine tuning going on depending on things play out in any individual case. Had the medical establishment at the time insisted on RCTs, our sailors would still be getting scurvy due to lack of vitamin C, and children was still be suffering from rickets due to low vitamin D.
In other words, careful observational studies have played a central and critical role in the development of modern medicine.
RCTs certainly have a place but they are extremely cumbersome and also subject to design flaws. In the case of ivermectin and for that matter hydroxychloroquine, many of the academic center RCTs were designed to fail. That is indeed the case with the ongoing Principle Oxford trial. Of course if you include patients up to 14 days after symptom onset you are not going to do well. You want to give this at the onset of symptoms. It would not be hard to design such a trial and put this in the hands of GPs such that they could administer the relevant drug combo or placebo immediately they see a patient with suggestive symptoms, even before waiting for test results. If the test comes back negative, then you don’t need to include those patients in the trial.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

I know this music. Ever heard of Di Bella? A fatherly, white-haired Italian physician who pioneered his own cancer treatment, based mainly on somatostatin (not an unreasonable idea), with various supplements mixed in. He, too, did his own continuous adjustment and fine tuning – with the result that when he was asked to show his records there was no well-defined protocol to evaluate, no selection criteria, no clear outcome criteria, not even a complete list of people treated and how they had fared. He too had lots of fans who flocked eagerly to his cure, demanded state funding, and blamed vested interests for refusing it. His followers, too, complained that his cure was only tested on very sick, last-chance ‘clapped-out’ patients, where he deserved to get the best and most healthy early-state cancer patients the better to show how well his treatment worked.

According to Wikipedia “Medical experts consider his cancer therapy dangerous and unscientific.” He was probably sincere but self-deluded – but that just shows how easy it is to fool yourself (and others) without the discipline of trials to keep you honest.

Last edited 3 years ago by Rasmus Fogh
Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

In terms of cancer chemotherapy you should realize that the standard protocols used for treating, for example, B cell lymphoma, are always fine tuned to the patient and changed a little. That is what’s known as the art of medicine and distinguished a great oncologist from an average one. If there was no art, you could have a robot practice oncology or for that matter all of medicine.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Stepping back a little, the problem with these popular-but-unproven therapies is that their fans are convinced they know, for certain, that they work, which means it is up to their opponents to disprove them. Which is putting the cart before the horse, for a therapy that does not have solid evidence to start with. Then, it is in practice pretty much impossible to disprove them, to the followers. If there is a result that shows the therapy has little or no effect, it can be explained away by

  • The many additional supplements were not present in the right proportions
  • The patients were too sick, or it was not given at the right time
  • The people who did the test were in the pocket of the pharma lobby, so the reults were manipulated.
  • The treatment was not properly tuned to the individual, because the people running the test did not understand the ART of medicine.

On the latter point let me quote the phenomenon of N-rays, a physical radiation much studied in the late 1800’s, even though it was eventually proved not to exist. It was wholly imaginary. One of the defenders of N-rays went so far as to say that this was a subtle phenomenon, so that only French people with their living Gallic spirit could observe it, whereas of those stolid brutish Germans were of course too obtuse to be able to perceive it. And this was physics. You can give people very little rope before they proceed to hang themselves.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Look, nobody is forcing anybody to take or not take a therapy. The problem in the US and UK is that the establishment is preventing access to very safe drugs such as hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. That’s the issue.
Now, in terms of COVID, you have to aggregate the results in the community. If the results obtained by a bunch of doctors following a particular protocol is hugely better than one might expect by chance, then it’s likely that protocol is effective without the need for an RCT. In terms of the ivermectin/ doxycycline/vit D/vit C/Zn combination, doctors who are following this have had real success. That is worth paying attention to and not just drawing blinds over one’s eyes and covering one’s ears.
Seems to me in your case that a little knowledge is dangerous. For sure mistakes will be made and treatments can be wholly ineffective. But when there are no other options, it’s always worth a shot. Sort of like Pascal’s bet on the existence of God (I think it was Pascal, maybe Descartes, who knows). But the principle is the same.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

I would recommend you read the following balanced article by Buzz Hollander MD: https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2021/09/08/lessons_from_the_ivermectin_debacle_793483.html
on the topic of ivermectin that came out today in RealClearScience. Makes a welcome change to the dogmatic views espoused by yourself and the good Mr. Chivers.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

Thanks. I’d agree with both his facts and his probabilities – it is a good article. He does seem to be rather bending over backwards to be open to the pro-Ivermectin group, though. As I would summarise his article, we have a drug that shows promise, but is still most likely to be useless, some of the main studies backing it are proven frauds, some of the top promoters are talking nonsense, and the studies that do suggest it works (there are several) come with lots of cautions. Yet it might work – unlike homeopathy. The question is 1) Do we want lots of people to rely on a quite possibly useless drug, potentially avoiding more effective therapies, or would we prefer to avoid that? And do we get closer to our goals by endorsing the drug, thereby giving ammunition to all those who claim it is a miracle cure, or by trying to suppress its use, thereby alienating those who would like to believe in it?

Here my reaction is different from Hollanders, probably because 1) I have a research background, so I think it is crucial not to allow yourself to believe in something when you know there is no sufficient evidence – it is hard enough to deal with the cases where you fool yourself and think the evidence is there. 2) because if a doctor prescribes me a drug, I want to be able to trust that is has been proven to work – and not have to do a literature review to check whether it is just being prescribed to keep the science sceptics on board.

Added:
You’ll notice that Hollanders article quotes a metastudy that finds 60% improvement in mortality but still says it is not statistically significant, because of bad trial data. Clearly it is very difficult to prove something either way with this drug (as with many others, I am sure). The question is whether you chose to believe it or not, in spite of that.

Last edited 3 years ago by Rasmus Fogh
William McKinney
William McKinney
3 years ago
Reply to  Tom Chivers

https://c19ivermectin.com/
Anyone with the time, energy and/or interest can take a look at summaries of various Ivermectin related studies via this link. The first meta-analysis does not – I think, as I can’t see it – use the discredited study (naturally the only study covered by MSM) and does include several negative outcomes (addressing in part at least the issue of publication bias – though this is an issue in every meta-analysis and not unique to Ivermectin). It still suggests there could be significant benefits from using Ivermectin.
And if the trials are low quality, it is because, as we know, high quality trials are very expensive and are generally therefore undertaken either by pharmaceutical companies or public health institutions – and we know also that neither of these groups has any interest in seeing Ivermectin “work”: Pharma because there’s no money in it for them, public health authorities because they’re wedded to their vaccination strategy which would be rendered obsolete by a successful treatment. The sponsors of Ivermectin (etc.) however are mainly real-life doctors, who are treating sick patients day-to-day and simply don’t have the financial, time or manpower resources to run high-quality trials.
Pharma/Public health/WHO are well aware of this. And if either group had really cared about actual people dying or COVID, they’d have made sure to fund adequate studies into treatments, including repurposed drugs such as Ivermectin much earlier. If they’d done so there’d be no debate now. Instead of working with the doctors, however, they have consistently used their vast resources – supported by their lackeys in MSM, social media etc. – to censor and denigrate the thousands of physicians around the world who fervently believe – based on their real-life patient care experience – that Ivermectin makes a serious difference.
Are we to believe these doctors are deluded or making it up? It’s possible, but it seems to me that there’s a point where anecdotal evidence becomes too much to dismiss, especially based on the absence of some technicality like a specific kind of trial. The stakes are too high – we need to know the truth via honest, well-designed studies not studies designed to fail.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago

Ivermectin might well prove to be effective, but neutral reviews still put it as odds-against. The expensive, high-quality trials are *not* a technicality,they are necessary to get reliable conclusions. Because it is actually quite easy to fool yourself and become (falsely) convinced that your treatment make a real difference. The number of patients is limited, some live, some die, all patients are different, sometimes in subtle ways, and you are likely constantly modifying your treatment in order to find something that works. And you *really* want to believe that you are doing something that makes a difference. If you want to conclude that your treatment works, you can generally find some way to massage your data afterwards to support that conclusion – unless you have lots of patients and are very rigid about doing the trial. There is a long history of treatments that seemed to work when done by enthusiasts but do not hold up when checked in bigger trials. If it was not like this, we would not need the big trials in the first place.

People have done trials of repurposed drugs, and found at least one, dexamethasone. Also, AFAIK, by testing on hospital patients. These trials require fewer patients, are easier to get informed consent for, and give clearer results since so many patients have bad outcomes. Trials on lightly sick people or prevention requires *much* larger trials and are much harder to get consent for, hence they are slow and very expensive. If that is what you mean by ‘not set up to fail’, you are asking for quite a lot.

And not to forget, vaccinations *have* got the big expensive trials, and *have* high-quality data to prove they are safe and they work.

Last edited 3 years ago by Rasmus Fogh
O Thomas
O Thomas
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

No dog in this race, but I admire your stamina Rasmus! Feel like you have a more politically mixed set of views than the general commentator here (whose views typically all hew to the right wing) and cop a lot of downvotes.

Dawn McD
Dawn McD
3 years ago
Reply to  O Thomas

I second this statement. As a newly installed, stubbornly undecided fence sitter on many issues, including ivermectin, I’m cheering Rasmus on from the sidelines.

A Spetzari
A Spetzari
3 years ago

I think the key is the radicalisation of views. In the 00s into the 10s the right (in America at least) became more extreme – the Tea Party etc for example. But now we’re seeing the same on the left.
Put simply, people with more extreme political views are less likely to have a rational interpretation of things if it seems to clash with what they want to believe is true.
Another aspect is what Tom touches on – people on each side of the argument aren’t even really arguing in the same areas.
Take the recent Texas abortion legislation for example:
For supporters of it, the argument mainly revolves around a belief in the life of the child (no matter how relatively undeveloped). That life is sacrosanct, and no arguments are strong enough to dissuade otherwise.
For opponents of it, the argument mainly revolves around women’s rights. The law as far as they can tell is just another misogynistic piece of legislature designed to undermine women.
Those two arguments don’t overlap. One side accusing the other of misogyny is completely missing the point. They aren’t being misogynistic as they are not deliberately trying to exclude women – they’re just thinking of the child. If they’re accused of misogyny then they will just switch off.
Same happened with Brexit, Trump with cries of racism etc.
People will not come to any sort of resolution on these matters until they realise that they’re not fighting on the same ground.

Last edited 3 years ago by A Spetzari
O Thomas
O Thomas
3 years ago
Reply to  A Spetzari

Yes, I do think this is the core dynamic, much of it driven by the web. When I see the outrage of the day on twitter accompanied by slightly (or totally) misleading and spun data I often think of the Yeats line about thr worst being full of passionate intensity. Radicalism and the protrusion into identity that having outlier beliefs brings is often inimical to clear sightedness i think. Too much emotion, too much at stake.

hayden eastwood
hayden eastwood
3 years ago

Evolutionarily it was likely more important for survival to hold incorrect views that allowed acceptance to your tribe, than to hold correct ones but be rejected by it. If we more successful at survival as individuals we would likely be better at thinking independently.

One need only look at any newspaper to see that the majority of views are designed to affirm membership to the group than to challenge the prevailing thought of the moment.

As identity politics tribalises us further, so our ability to think clearly also diminishes. There is almost no arena of thought left where an idea is not associated with tribal belonging.

Last edited 3 years ago by hayden eastwood
Deborah B
Deborah B
3 years ago

Well. Aside from the examples given which seem to be clouding the issue, this article is actually about the ability of the human mind to filter information and only take in what already accords with the individual’s belief system.
Way back in the mists of time, i.e. the ’70s, Richard Bandler and John Grinder and many others studied human behaviour, language and the way the mind ‘takes on’ information about the world, filtering out the parts that don’t fit with beliefs. They called it NLP. Their books, Structure of Magic 1 and 2 and Frogs into Princes explain everything anyone might want to know about the human mind and it’s tricksy ways.
Yet it’s as if NLP has been airbrushed out of current psychological understanding.
How odd that we are still struggling to understand the ways of the mind when the work has already been done, yet we ignore it.
Also, how good would it be if the titles of articles actually reflected the content?

Fennie Strange
Fennie Strange
3 years ago
Reply to  Deborah B

I very much doubt if anyone has – or ever will – “explain everything anyone might want to know about the human mind and its (no apostrophe needed here) tricksy ways”.

Last edited 3 years ago by Fennie Strange
Andy Martin
Andy Martin
3 years ago
Reply to  Deborah B

“They called it NLP.”
Aha!
The old Neuro Linguistic Programming – or ‘people programming as it later became pejoratively known as.
Seriously?
This load of old crap cooked up in the 70s in California (are we surprised) has been very very thoroughly debunked as pseudo science.
“NLP has been adopted by some hypnotherapists and also by companies that run seminars marketed as leadership training to businesses and government agencies. There is no scientific evidence supporting the claims made by NLP advocates, and it has been discredited as a pseudoscience.”
And that’s just the wikipedia page
There’s more details on the main page below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
But tons and tons more articles can be found that more or less come to the same conclusion.
Just google Neoro Linguistic programming debunked and follow the research.

Peter LR
Peter LR
3 years ago

Most of the illustrations you use come from journalistic outlets, so isn’t the problem in their presentation of the material? If they have a left motivation (a majority of them), or an anti-Government agenda, that’s what we are presented with as “the facts”. This is illustrated by the ‘sudden conversion’ of journalism about Biden who appears to get a free pass; and shows that journalists only choose information to publish that suits their agendas.
I tend not to believe most things I read where either they have clearly been rushed out (the breaking news scoop), or they are based on words like ‘hate’ or ‘racist’. It’s tough to find really reliably information sources when journalism is committed to sycophantic ‘followers’ before substantiated facts.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
3 years ago

It’s very simple: in the absence of Religion, many people look for, um, … Religion. The label of Religion is just that – a label, so not calling something Religion does not make it any less Religion. Remainerism is Religion, as is ‘taking the knee’. During the Euros, I noticed various prog left writers making hagiographies of the footballers and the manager, because of their projected internationalism and championing of good causes (the school meals stuff) and even in some cases their practicing Christianity. All the more comical because those footballers may I just point out will undoubtedly be employing the services of the very best accountants money can buy to exploit every nook and cranny of the spirit if not the letter of tax law. As for the practicing Christianity of some sportspeople taking the knee, well, a bunch of people used to observing Religious symbolisms are not going to be other than comfortable with observing yet more Religious symbolisms. The issue is, I don’t believe in their Religions – any of them. So the response of the left in reaction is to let loose the Inquisition on people like me? Just because I don’t buy into their Religions, or want to observe it’s symbolisms?

Last edited 3 years ago by Prashant Kotak
Laura Creighton
Laura Creighton
3 years ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Is it possible that you could call what they believe in an ideology, rather than a religion? It may make it easier to talk about these things, both with those who are opposed to organised religion on ideological grounds, and those who are members of mainstream religions.

Last edited 3 years ago by Laura Creighton
Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
3 years ago

I note what you say, and I realise that some do not like the application of the term ‘religion’ to the current ‘woke’ phenomenon, which is – or is at least included in – what I think Prashant Kotak is referring to. (And I also realise that some find the term ‘woke’ itself one of approbation, and others find it a term of contempt.)

But it does bear many of the characteristics of religion, and unfortunately many of the least attractive of those characteristics to boot.

An ideology – arising from human reasoning – is open to examination and criticism. Contrariwise, a religion drops down perfectly formed from heaven, and is right. Right you understand? Right! Is just is! Try to examine or question it, and that in itself proves that you are evil. And must be destroyed.

I think PK is right that, in the absence of religion, many people long for a religion. They have found one, and are forcing it on the rest of us.

Laura Creighton
Laura Creighton
3 years ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

I haven’t found ideologues to be open to examination and criticism, except the sort of narrow criticism within the ideology, to move it a few degrees this way or that. Criticism from people who don’t accept the ideology is not listened to.
On the other hand, the Chrisitian and Jewish thinkers I have argued religion with were happy with the examination and criticism. Nobody thought that I was evil, just mistaken.
I think that many people long for salvation through believing a set of truths. They’d love for it to be the sort of thing you can cram for, like an exam. What they want is a creed, not a religion.
Would you be willing to say that ‘wokism’ is a new creed?
Because, like many other people, I think that ‘what you believe in’ is the least interesting or important part of religion. There are people who think that salvation is the only important part of Christianity, and that you can be saved by faith alone, but they are only a tiny fraction of the total of religious people. The interesting things start happening when a religious person starts trying to live a good, fulfilling and moral life. Of course, interesting things start happening when non-religious people start trying to live such lives, as well. But the religious people have a leg up on the non-religious, in that most of the people who have tried to live such lives have done so in the context of a religious life. Having to re-invent what has gone before is wasteful.

Laura Creighton
Laura Creighton
3 years ago

With further thought, I think that what you and Prashant Kotak are objecting to is bigotry, but for some reason you believe that is is usual for religious people to be bigots.
Now you have got me to wondering if the appeal of wokism is precisely that it allows a new form of bigotry, one with the God bits left out.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
3 years ago

That’s fair enough, but I would expect an ideology per se not to include all the enforced pieties and reverences and gestures and so on, which are essentially meaningless but we face censure for saying that. For example, I would view someone like Floyd as a minor criminal, who was unfortunate that he came across an overzealous cop, and ended up dead – a tragedy but the reaction was completely out of all proportion. I was verbally abused for stating just that as though I had said something unsayable, and this type of mass hysteria to me has all the characteristics of a Religion that does not allow apostasy. I have no problem at all with religious people, some of whom are the nicest people I know – as long as they don’t attempt to force their beliefs on others with a cost if you don’t comply.

Last edited 3 years ago by Prashant Kotak
Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
3 years ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

I agree with your assessment.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
3 years ago

Thank you for this and your earlier reply immediately above.

I do not believe that it is usual for religious people to be bigots. (Two of my grandparents were missionaries; my wife’s grandfather was a minister; I am studying theology.)

I do, however, think that religious people are committed to a revealed truth that is not in reality open to proof or disproof. Even your Christian and Jewish friends, happy as they sound to discuss their religion with you, still think you’re mistaken. (Because they’re right and you’re wrong, I imagine they would think.)

But to clarify my point – and here I rather lazily copy from a post of mine on an earlier UnHerd article – this is why I think Wokeism exhibits (the unhappier elements of) a religion: “A revealed truth that must not be challenged, above critical question, too holy for human enquiry; the expulsion of heretics and apostates; the demonisation of opponents; the insistence on abject confession of guilt; the (literal) genuflection of taking the knee; the separation into the saved and the damned by predestination; the duty to destroy the infidels; all human life a holy war.”

The Wokeist world-view seems to me to be pretty Gnostic: “We are saved by a higher wisdom that the rest of the world is too ignorant to understand; We are from above, pure, children of light; but the world is peopled by those from below, impure, children of darkness; there must be a purifying destruction of our enemies.”

So, yeah, that does seem to me to be rather bigoted.

Laura Creighton
Laura Creighton
3 years ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

The Wokeist world view seems pretty Gnostic to me, too but also leavened with a masochistic desire for punishment which the ancient Gnostics I am familiar with seem to have avoided — at least some of the modern people I am reading seem convinced that they are holy precisely because they hate themselves so much. But not, strangely, for their sins. For their skin colour and for being Western, and oddly for having student debt.

Last edited 3 years ago by Laura Creighton
J Bryant
J Bryant
3 years ago

“Semitentionality” is an interesting theory and a generous one. It means people we consider raving, ideological loonies are really acting logically based on the reality that is presented to their consciousness. There are many fewer “bad actors” in the world than we believe.
It’s that the world our brains present to us is brilliantly constructed so that our friends are right and good and the enemy is bad and wrong. It’s not clear how we can improve the situation
I suppose the answer to the author’s question (It’s not clear how we can improve the situation) is education. We must teach people from a young age who are your true friends and enemies, or, rather, who isn’t your enemy. Unfortunately, in the West the entire education system is now dominated by hard progressives teaching a socially divisive ideology. The education system has become an enemy factory. One more reason, I would think, to resist the progressive takeover of our education system, yet here on Unherd, and elsewhere, I see few articles devoted to fighting these trends. Much talk of problems; little talk of solutions.
Whether semitentionality is a real phenomenon or not, it’s hard to argue with the author’s suggestion that to improve our current social malaise “being wary of sharing any politically convenient stories on social media might be a good start.”

Last edited 3 years ago by J Bryant
Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
3 years ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Have you maybe fallen into the trap Tom describes?

Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago

“To be clear, ivermectin almost certainly doesn’t help prevent or treat Covid”

Here is Dr Campbell, the most popular covid doctor on Youtube, a soothing, British Doctor, with great experience in the developing world, and a massive fallowing. The Dr is very much a ‘Pro Science’ guy in they he is rabidly pro Vax, a firm masker, and a lockdown agreer. He reads a Meta-Study on all the Ivermectin trials around the world, from a reputable science group. (Western doctors have NOT done studies on Ivermectin for some very suspect reason)

He has spent a lot of time with these Indian doctors, and so gave them some real consideration in the Ivermectin use studies. His final assessment is Ivermectin appears to be working for covid. Watch the video below, it is very good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j7am9kjMrk

Anyway google ‘Ivermectin Meta-Analysis’ for loads of very reasonable experts saying how it looks like Ivermectin works. The science says it works.

Bret Weinstein (who Freddy did here) is also totally in the Ivermectin camp, and has refused the vaccine – tons of youtubes on him saying both – although his last one is on Oddesy (Youtube alternative) as youtube is about to kick him off for being a ‘Covid Denier.

Bret has an interesting take on why Ivermectin is NOT studied by Western Science, – because it is forbidden to be studied, because if it proved to actually work the VAX emergency licence would have to be withdrawn as the emergency permission was only Because No Covid-19 Medicines Existed. Cool, a Conspiracy from the Pharma/Medical Industrial Complex. And one Chivers is going along with.

Mel Shaw
Mel Shaw
3 years ago

People on the left (or, at least, the Marxists) have to deny that aspects of human behaviour and intelligence are heritable, otherwise how could they hope to mould everyone into perfect socialist citizens. Never mind that they didn’t have much success in the Soviet Union, or that entrepreneurial impulses seem to be alive and well in China.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
3 years ago

Most news commentary these days come with a set of signals about whether we should approve or not.
Some are explicit but plenty are implicit – e.g., any mention of Dyson in any context, boo, hiss, he was pro-Brexit and this will jaundice the commentary no matter what the relevance. Similarly with the Wetherspoons guy – “never liked his pubs anyway, I hear he treats his staff terribly etc etc”
It reminds me of my early days in Scotland when Billy Connolly was in the ascendant. I heard a proportion of workmates expounding at length (and quite reasonably actually) about how he was a poor, unfunny, comedian, his patter was nothing more than normal shipyard banter etc etc. As I say, all very reasonable, until you considered that they were invariably Clydeside Protestants and almost all trotted out the same line. Then you began to wonder if, just maybe, it was because BC was from the Catholic side … but they’re at pains to let you know it was nothing to do with that, it was because etc etc etc.

Last edited 3 years ago by Brendan O'Leary
Andrew D
Andrew D
3 years ago

It’s the same with abortion. One side, let’s call it the left, talks about blobs of cells. The other, we’ll call it the right, talks of babies. Which is the (biological) science denier? Google any image of a 12-week old foetus and you’ll know who’s closer to the truth – which is why pro-abortionists never discuss the science.

Last edited 3 years ago by Andrew D
Peter LR
Peter LR
3 years ago
Reply to  Andrew D

And the language: I’ve never known anyone say, “I’m expecting a foetus!” The language employed depends on whether a child is wanted or not.

Dawn McD
Dawn McD
3 years ago
Reply to  Andrew D

And here, in one compact paragraph, you have shown that Tom Chivers is absolutely correct. But hey, good for you that you know for certain that you possess the “truth” and “the science.”

Laura Creighton
Laura Creighton
3 years ago

In an atmosphere of scarcity and anxiety, where group loyalty is paramount, it is hard to know how much you can rely on the support of other members of your group. Are they committed? or are they wishy-washy? Unfortunately, for all of us, one of the best ways to test group loyalty is to ask for group members to believe something that is obviously incorrect.
The ones that say ‘wait a minute. I don’t think that this conclusion follows from the premises’ are the ones not to be trusted. Get out the tar and feathers! Scientists are no different than other groups in this respect, though a good number of them are stuck in the lack of self-awareness characterised by ‘I have a science degree, therefore I am unbiased and truthful by definition’ or ‘I am too smart to make these kinds of errors’.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
3 years ago

Unfortunately, for all of us, one of the best ways to test group loyalty is to ask for group members to believe something that is obviously incorrect.

There is something disturbingly plausible about this insight. It points to the new need for tribal belonging that seems to outweigh our former social norms and institutions, and to expel reason itself.

Why bother with stuffy old reality when you can be wonderful, just wonderful, by being in today’s right tribe?

John Riordan
John Riordan
3 years ago

“They define words in ways that gain them cultural power: so a Left-winger might very deliberately define “racism” to include “anything that leads to negative outcomes for non-white people”, and a Right-winger might define it as “only explicit acts of intentional racism by an individual”, so as to make the problem as big or as small as you can. Certainly it seems to happen too often for it to be accidental.”

Erm, well the right-wing definition is in fact the definition that makes sense, and doesn’t reduce racism to a parody of itself that endangers the whole anti-racism agenda.

At this point in the conversation I’d expect to hear “Yes, but you would say that because you’re a right-winger”, to which I say No, that’s the wrong way around: I am a right-winger because I see the world in this way.

Richard Goodall
Richard Goodall
3 years ago

The author is guilty as charged. This is gaslighting b*llsh*t. Right -wing people are more likely to deny science?. Politics has moved so far left in the UK you can hardly find a true right winger. Look at our government. The left preaches that our nation is wildly racist despite British and EU surveys finding the opposite. They insist gender is a social construct, promote positive discrimination(simply discrimination) , import crt from a nation very different from ours which brands white people irredeemably and intrinsically racist. Who are the science deniers?

Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago

“This is gaslighting b*llsh*t. Right -wing people are more likely to deny science?”

Bret Weinstein and Jordan Peterson, who’s main points are that the Education industries have been captured by the left – that 90+% of teachers at university level are hard Left EXCEPT in Stem, where it becomes Right – shows it is the sciences which have not been captured by the Left warped ideology. That is is the Left which has abandoned any science and is all political ideology – and covid response is 100% political, not science.

Richard Goodall
Richard Goodall
3 years ago
Reply to  Galeti Tavas

I’ve watched quite a bit of BW and JP amongst many others this past 18 months to gain some insight on present events. I switched off from public opinion and politics quite some years ago . Imagine my surprise when I looked at msm narratives on just about everything and didn’t recognise the world I lived in. We are being coerced into accepting delusional fantasy as reality. Why are decisions no longer based on facts and evidence?

John Snowball
John Snowball
3 years ago

“To be clear, ivermectin almost certainly doesn’t help prevent or treat Covid and it can be bad for you.”
“It’s silly to take ivermectin, but people doing it are not putting huge strain on the US health service.”
I’m afraid that Tom Chivers’ brain is doing its own filtering. He is coming to a pre-programmed opinion about the drug, – if it’s for horses, it can’t be good for you.
Ivermectin has been used widely and successfully across whole swathes of Africa, and in India all persons testing positive for Covid were given a pre-prepared package of items which included it. There have been no reports that I am aware of of adverse consequences.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
3 years ago

How ironic that an article on science denial starts with this:
“To be clear, ivermectin almost certainly doesn’t help prevent or treat Covid and it can be bad for you.”
I had wondered about the efficacy of the drug myself recently and the VERY FIRST link on Duckduckgo is a highly credible peer-reviewed study on the US NIH site showing that Ivermectin has a clear benefit!
Note to editors – I am retired and would be happy to review Chiver’s articles for accuracy before publication.

Jonathan Bagley
Jonathan Bagley
3 years ago

The first invermectin link on Duckduckgo is the NIH covid-19 treatment guidelines, which includes

  • There is insufficient evidence for the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19. Results from adequately powered, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin in the treatment of COVID-19.

The 5th link is to A five-day course of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 may reduce the duration of illness by Ahmed et al,published in the International Journal of Infectious Diseases 2020. Is this what you are referring to?

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
3 years ago

“does ivermectin work against covid-19”
1st link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8248252/
Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19 Infection: A Systematic Review, Meta-analysis, and Trial Sequential Analysis to Inform Clinical Guidelines

Jonathan Bagley
Jonathan Bagley
3 years ago

Thanks, I just typed in invermectin.

Jonathan Bagley
Jonathan Bagley
3 years ago

The meta-analysis includes a preprint, Elgazzar 2020, which has since been retracted. That doesn’t inspire confidence. Back in 1976 my statistics lecturer told us studies should never be pooled together. How times have changed.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
3 years ago

Your professor was wrong. Meta-analysis has standards, and when followed can provide valuable in formation. I believe but must check that the meta-analysis did a robustness check which reruns analysis while excluding components 1 at a time.

Bob Pugh
Bob Pugh
3 years ago

The Left views itself as the defender of truth and accuracy, not a purveyor of mistruth. ” Well there’s your problem.

Lennon Ó Náraigh
Lennon Ó Náraigh
3 years ago

My own bugbear: progressive education. Crudely, in education, there are two camps. In the one camp, you have progressive educators, who emphasize experiential learning, “skills” over knowledge, etc. etc. In the other, you have the Michael Gove typs, who emphaize knowledge and content first.
There is considerable overlap between those are are progressive in education and those who are progressive in politics. The trouble is, a lot of the theories in progressive education have been debunked by people doing rigorous behavioural psychology. The most infamous case is that of “learning styles” – which have been completely debunked by people who do actual scientific research, e.g. Professor Dan Willingham (http://www.danielwillingham.com/learning-styles-faq.html).
So, you get a lot of science deniers in with believers in progressive education – arguably yet another example of left-wing science denialism.

Jonathan Patrick
Jonathan Patrick
3 years ago

Part of the problem is that we haven’t taught logic for quite some time. Instead we teach “critical thinking” which actually takes a logical fallacy (ad hominem attacks) and portrays it as good thinking. If I can debunk the source then I can ignore the argument. Both sides do it for sure.

Laura Creighton
Laura Creighton
3 years ago

And now, of course, you can replace ‘debunk’ with ‘smear and demonise’.

Richard Lyon
Richard Lyon
3 years ago

> To be clear, ivermectin almost certainly doesn’t help prevent or treat Covid

I don’t know if it does or it doesn’t. But, since there has been no large scale clinical trial — of the sort you might do if you weren’t determined to clear the market of inexpensive treatments so you can flog expensive novel ones — and we have been left instead to guess in the teeth of internet censorship, neither does the author.

Filed under “claim chowder”.

Last edited 3 years ago by Richard Lyon
michael stanwick
michael stanwick
3 years ago

… a Left-winger might very deliberately define “racism” to include “anything that leads to negative outcomes for non-white people”, and a Right-winger might define it as “only explicit acts of intentional racism by an individual”, so as to make the problem as big or as small as you can.
The 1st case involves a potential fallacy – the single cause fallacy or correlation does not equal causation – whereas the 2nd case is specific enough to seek actual intent of racism between two variables. I don’t think it is about ‘big’ or ‘small’ as there can be other probable motivations for the these such as one seeking to fallaciously negatively label ‘white people’ and the other to highlight where and in what racism actually lies.

Last edited 3 years ago by michael stanwick
Jane Watson
Jane Watson
3 years ago

We ‘categorise’ all day every day, from getting out of bed (onto a hard floor that won’t give way) and making coffee (with hot water that is safe in the cup but not on the skin). The longer we live, the more categories we learn and the more difficult it becomes to unlearn reliable ‘constants’ (ie cars have engines we can hear and hot water coming out of that new tap will not immediately scald). Bias is a necessity, and everyone with a brain exercises it; imagining that some are more free of bias than others is probably delusional. I think we have learned pretty well over the last 18 months that scientists (proper ones) are no more free of bias than Ivermectin users. So we’ve maybe unlearned a bit regarding the ‘scientist’ category…

Zorro Tomorrow
Zorro Tomorrow
3 years ago

A lot of words to underline that left wing people are brainwashed, often disturbed and either mentally ill or stupid.

mike otter
mike otter
3 years ago

When Mertonian norms are abandoned Confirmation Bias asserts itself in proper nouns. We all do it, but the more off the wall your pre-conceptions the more bizarre the confirmation bias is. Trump = Hitler is probably the best illustration. No he isn’t, he is a very naughty boy but a surprisingly effective president compared to all since Reagan. Wokists confirmation bias is a stain that seem indelible. It seems they are obsessed with skin color, genital configeration and what everyone richer than them is earning. So their biases confirm they are racist, sexist and greedy/envious. Good news that Cassie Jay checked her bias but i expect she is a very rare exception. The Invermectin/Chloroquine/Remdesivir stuff is not confirmation bias but war crimes based on state actors denying healthcare whilst leveraging a severe flu (Covid-CFR of 1%) for political and financial gain.

Last edited 3 years ago by mike otter
Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago
Reply to  mike otter

love the post

“The Invermectin/Chloroquine/Remdesivir stuff is not confirmation bias but war crimes based on state actors denying healthcare whilst leveraging a severe flu (Covid-CFR of 1%) for political and financial gain.”

But the Real Tools of the War against the World, the ‘Great Reset’ as it is currently called, were Lock-Down, and the Central Banks money printing. Shutting ivermectin seems to be to maintain Lockdown – all leads to it, masking, travel, vaccines, passports, education closed, paying people to sit home, and on and on.

Chauncey Gardiner
Chauncey Gardiner
3 years ago

I have not made time to research the Ivermectin (or Hydroxychloroquine) business, but “clearly” you’re being too lazy to substantiate your own bald, naked, evidence-free claims.

You do that a lot — unwittingly it seems. And it’s the reason I will often pass over a Chivers piece.

Suggestion: Speak less from the first-person — I, I, I, I, I — and more about what’s going on in the world. The third-person.

hugh bennett
hugh bennett
3 years ago

“Or take IQ. Your score on an IQ test predicts your success in life pretty well….”
Such a shame no-one can measure effects of common-sense. As my dear Gran would often say,” Clever old b-gger, but not a shred of common sense”.
As the author practically admits, he is steeped within the chattering class morass where common sense is as rare as a good science editor

Last edited 3 years ago by hugh bennett
Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago
Reply to  hugh bennett

search ‘IQ by nation’ to find the results will turn out just as you would guess based on their success…

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
3 years ago
Reply to  Galeti Tavas

The most obvious explanation is that IQ mesurements are higher for people with better education, better nutrition, less chaotic lives – and successful nations by definition are better in those ways. ‘Proving’ that rich nations deserve their success because they have better genes – or that black people do worse because they are genetically inferior – is unprovable and reeks of confirmation bias.

Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

“and successful nations by definition are better in those ways.”

Well why did they become successful to enable that better education and nutrition and wealth? Yours is the chicken and egg argument.

hugh bennett
hugh bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Galeti Tavas

I was not making any other point than, if common sense was applied in greater measure along side the results of intelligence, it might be for the better. I also feel that, if writers like Tom Chivers were not afraid to apply commonsense rather than always believe that have to engage in such deep intellectual analysis about some of the nonsense they comment upon that would be for the better as well…
….An less well uneducated father with his highly educated son went on a camping trip. They set-up their tent and fell asleep.Some hours later, the father woke up his son.
Father- Look up to the sky and tell me what you see.Son- I see millions of stars.Father- And what does that tell you?
Son- Astronomically, it tells that there are millions of galaxies and planets.
Father gives his son a kick in the backside son and says- “Idiot, someone has stolen our tent ………” 

Last edited 3 years ago by hugh bennett
Clive Mitchell
Clive Mitchell
3 years ago

A lot of posts seem to be criticising this article for what it isn’t, an analysis on the efficacy of ivermectin. This article isn’t about that, it’s about bias and how it affects us in making balanced judgements.

Personally on that issue I found it interesting and balanced.

As a side issue I wonder how many of the views expressed on ivermectin are affected by the bias discussed.

Because frankly I see no reason to believe that some of the commentators have the necessary training to be as certain as they claim.

Andrew Raiment
Andrew Raiment
3 years ago
Reply to  Clive Mitchell

Agreed

AC Harper
AC Harper
3 years ago

Ignoring all the COVID stuff (which is too hot to think about calmly) the more important message is that peoples’ unconscious thoughts bias how current perceptions are interpreted.
Timothy D Wilson made the point that a white person’s first reactions to interactions with a black person may often have a slight unconscious hesitation before ‘normal’ conversation starts, and black people pick up on this. I wonder if some people’s unconscious thoughts prepare them to interpret everything as evidence of ‘whiteness’ and racism?
Such competing unconscious biases could explain a great deal of Wokery.

Juliet Garnett
Juliet Garnett
3 years ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Are you seriously suggesting that a black person’s first reactions to interactions with a white person doesn’t follow that exact pattern?

Roger Tilbury
Roger Tilbury
3 years ago

Anyone who quotes Lewandowsky in support of their arguments is seriously deluded.
Also on Ivermectin – not useful or a barrier to big pharma selling lots of very expensive new drugs ?

Paul Kelly
Paul Kelly
3 years ago

The first few paragraphs remind me very much of the infamous Cathy Newman/Jordan Peterson interview.
“So, what you are saying is…..”
《Bemused look》
…repeat.

Dr Stephen Nightingale
Dr Stephen Nightingale
3 years ago

As a part of UnHerd’s trigger-list of undesired words in commenters’ – and columnists – discourse may I propose that you add ‘Left’ and ‘Right’. I really don’t know what they mean, but I perceive they are intended as short-hand for shoving folk into thought silos.
I think universal medicare in the US would be a good thing: does that make me ‘left’, or otherwise? I think a well-funded National Health Service in the UK would be a good thing, does that make me ‘left’? Or could it mean that I might think they are a good thing in both places, on both actuarial and public health grounds?
This writer is so cavalier in the use of ‘Left’ and ‘Right’ to connote mass attitudes that whatever point he is actually trying to make is totally obscured.

Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago

To do away with Left-Right in this polarized world would make as much sense as doing away with ‘Allies-Axis in discussing WWII. The West, and World, is in s prelude to war, and the sides are being drawn up. Those words are needed to identify the sides.

Michael Miles
Michael Miles
3 years ago

I would double check the COVID hospitalized figure quoted for Oklahoma. The figure is a total not a per day rate. At 1600 hospitalizations per day the hospitals would be full in less than a day.

Claire Dunnage
Claire Dunnage
3 years ago

Over time I have become more aware of how I selectivity create my reality, filling in gaps in stories by turning to my world view, wanting to believe certain assertions, making assumptions, and not listening properly to people who come from a different political perspective. There is a huge comfort in bolstering our beliefs, and avoiding difficult and challenging arguments, but i have found that being aware of this and opening up to being challenged is very satisfying, as complexities become more apparent and a sense that I am getting closer to truths

Earl King
Earl King
3 years ago

Confirmation Information. We all grab on to info that confirms our beliefs. The Left has denied that fatherless children have lower chance of being successful based on all sort of facts, For example there is a greater preponderance of fatherless males in prison. It is not an accident. They just don’t want to change poverty programs to discourage women from having children without marriage because presumably that makes the problem of fatherless children the women fault or the mans fault. Like Duh.
The Right has similar problems grasping mans impact on the environment. The Left has a similar problems actually looking at the data on environment because a crisis is how you can get something done on climate change, so they exaggerate the problem and deny that fact that we can do little about the temperature rise that is inevitable due to the CO2 already here. It’s a mess that makes good public policy possible.

Gunner Myrtle
Gunner Myrtle
3 years ago

I am starting to wonder if serious “Science” was always political to the point of being wildly incorrect on big topics. Global Warming is the biggest example now of manufactured science but I am starting to wonder if there have been other issues I have been misled to all my life about that I just don’t know are nonsense. Are scientists getting more political or is it just that the internet makes it easier for counter narratives to get out?

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
3 years ago
Reply to  Gunner Myrtle

Of course “Science” has always involved some politics, but it has gotten worse over time. I believe the tipping point was the 70s and 80s when advocacy of various social and environmental issues infused all areas of academia. The ideal of the scientist as objective seeker of the truth was in some fields abandoned for advocacy of 1 side or the other in scientific & political debates. This period not coincidentally corresponds to the emergence of the global warming issue into popular media and soon after policy debates.
As politics has infected just about all aspects of life Science has not been immune.

David Simpson
David Simpson
3 years ago

“but being wary of sharing any politically convenient stories on social media might be a good start.” agreed, but how about checking what you’ve read against other sources, and thinking carefully about it, and then sharing it. And always being open minded enough to consider the possibility you might have been wrong?

Also, not sharing anonymously or behind a meaningless and unidentifiable user name – all such should be automatically deleted by the service provider, or at least flagged as suspect.

And finally, this provides an explanation for some of the truly extraordinary things written about Jordan Peterson – they clearly do not hear or read what he says, except through this strange subconscious filtering system (“so what you’re saying is, humans are lobsters” for example)

Keith Jefferson
Keith Jefferson
3 years ago

I’m a bit late to this conversation (pesky work gets in the way) but I’ll throw in my tuppence worth as I have spent my life working at the interface between science and engineering so have an appreciation of how raw science gets misinterpreted as it propagates from the lab and into the public sphere.
It’s a bit of a cliché that scientists tend to be the nerdy types with limited social skills (maybe with a bit of autism thrown in) but there is some truth in that cliché – particularly for the most technically brilliant scientists. Those types of scientists tend to stay at the frontline – because they have neither the social skills or (more importantly) the interest to progress their career by getting involved in the institutions or in public facing roles. The scientists who don’t fit that mould get involved in the institutions, spending an increasing amount of time on administration, public engagement and policy development and a decreasing amount of attention to the basic science. These are the people who, after many years of distancing themselves from the technical frontline, rise to the top of the institutions and influence public discourse, brief Govts and brief science journalists like Tom. And to do their job, at the interface between science and Govt policy / public opinion, they have to adapt their views to fit in with the current zeitgeist (particularly if funding of their institution depends on Govt handouts).
The scientific ‘consensus’ expressed in the media should be seen through this prism – it is the consensus of the science “admin” team and not necessarily the majority view of scientists at the front line.
A classic example is the oft quoted “XXX thousands of scientists agree that anthropogenic global warming is real”. I am not necessarily disagreeing with this – the bottom line is that atmospheric chemistry is well outside of my specialist field – I suspect that there a maybe a few hundred scientists globally who understand this discipline in sufficient detail to give a robust professional opinion, and my own opinion is worth no more than any member of the public. Yet I would be included twice in those XXX thousands of scientists because both of the institutions of which I am a member have pledged their support to that statement. Neither of these institutions has asked me whether I agree; that support was submitted on my behalf by the administrators that run the institutions, who have their eye on the political zeitgeist.
And to get back to the thrust of the original story, the political zeitgeist has been firmly blowing to the left for many years, particularly amongst academia and the metropolitan middle class who rule the scientific establishment. This is why science is being distorted.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
3 years ago

Also their are tier 1, 2, 3 , 4 and perhaps 5 universities. When it come to virology/immunology how many departments and scientists are at the forefront of knowledge; perhaps a few hundred?
Most scientists innovation is spent in the first decade after their doctorate, after that it is very limited. They may carry on publishing but it is largely expanding on existing discoveries.
Newton did most his groundbreaking innovative work in the two years he spent on his family farm after university when the plague hit Cambridge.

Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
3 years ago

Your final point makes the presumption that behaving this way is a bad thing and should be avoided. An argument could probably be made that this isn’t necessarily the case. However, of it is a bad thing, l another way of avoiding the trap would be to have more friends. Preferably ones that think differently from you. If I really like someone and want to spend time in their company but they believe something that kneejerks my prejudices, I find I just have to think about why we both think the way we do much more deeply.

Mark Goodhand
Mark Goodhand
3 years ago

If sections of this article seem eerily familiar, it may be because you read them here first:
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/too-good-to-check-a-play-in-three

peter lucey
peter lucey
3 years ago

Wrt the ludicrous ivermectin story, the original piece had a picture of masked supplicants queueing for a hospital. But they were all wearing winter clothes (In Oklahoma, in August…)

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
3 years ago

Basic questions have not been asked let alone answered.
Who are the most and least susceptible to infection by Covid 19 and why? Is this due to lifestyle and/or genetics or both?
Who are the most and least likely to die from Covid 19 and why ?
What are the conditions most and least likely to transmit Covid 19?
The vaccine may have far less effect where there are people far more susceptible to dying from Covid 19 who live in conditions where transmission is greatest. Covid 19 entry appears to be via the lungs and effects those with Diabetes far more. Therefore is lung health important ? Apparently fit people have died of Covid 19 but bodybuilders do not have the stamina of long distance runners. Do aerobically fit farmers who work in cold, wet and windy conditions have higher immunity?Is a way of reducing susceptibility to Covid 19 by undertaking aerobic stamina in creasing exercises in cold, wet and windy conditions ?
Are there any substances which reduce letahlity of Covid 19?If so do they work for everyone and do they work at all stages of the disease ?
Science is Latin for knowledge and we appear not to have obtained some basic knowledge after 18 months.

michael stanwick
michael stanwick
3 years ago

…Nerst calls this process of only choosing from pre-screened options “semitentionality”: it’s neither an honest mistake nor a cynical misrepresentation, but some weird different third option.
Aaaand, another one. Jordan Peterson mentions in great – and sometimes difficult detail – a similar process in his book Maps of Meaning. The construction of models as a framework with which to view the world and inform the emotions and hence motivations, built around a particular hierarchy of values, arranged in a specific way.

Jim Davis
Jim Davis
3 years ago

Kudos for exposing the bias of the MSM. But if you had taken another 15 seconds to google search ivermectin you would have found the paper below and not have written “To be clear, ivermectin almost certainly doesn’t help prevent or treat Covid and it can be bad for you.” You while you exposed the fake MSM news, you created more fake news, with your incorrect statement about ivermectin.
Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19 Infection: A Systematic Review, Meta-analysis, and Trial Sequential Analysis to Inform Clinical Guidelines https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/fulltext/2021/08000/ivermectin_for_prevention_and_treatment_of.7.aspx

Chris Eaton
Chris Eaton
3 years ago

“To be clear, ivermectin almost certainly doesn’t help prevent or treat Covid and it can be bad for you. But it seems unlikely that there are so many people ingesting it that it’s affecting hospital capacity.”

To be clear, this is a made up bs but the author is stupid…so….

Ian Herriott
Ian Herriott
3 years ago

So disappointed with that comment re IVM. Whatever about the efficacy being somewhat lesser than was initially hoped its still a tremendous drug that has saved countless lives. Come on Unherd. This is so off the mark.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago

.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lesley van Reenen
Karl Juhnke
Karl Juhnke
3 years ago

Wow. I thought you had understood Cassie’s dilemma and realised you were the same in your unrelenting acceptance of everything vaccine and nothing not vaccine, in regards to covid treatment. And then you blow it. You do the same thing Cassie stopped herself from doing and derided something you obviously know nothing about. 3 out of 10. More homework required.

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
3 years ago

The Left are denying science for money and power. And when their denial becomes so obvious that it is clear for all to see, the Left claims that by definition there is no Left-wing science denial. And if you don’t accept ‘their truth’, they will put you in their gulag and torture you until you do.

Rod McLaughlin
Rod McLaughlin
3 years ago

In the 19th Century, Darwin’s enemy was the religious right. In the 20th Century, Darwin’s enemy was the political left. This is Darwin’s century.

Ann Ceely
Ann Ceely
3 years ago

On the whole, folk who are more concerned about feelings, friendships, and being ‘nice’ tend to be leftish and ready to say what makes other people happy.

While folk who investigate actualities and struggle to emphasise ‘correct’ treatment such as obeying the letter of the law tend to be labelled as rightwing. E.g. believing illegal immigrants are Queue-jumping and should be penalised.

Zorro Tomorrow
Zorro Tomorrow
3 years ago

In a dense metropolis it’s “Live and let live.” Out in the wider countryside it’s generally “Live and let live, but NIMBY.” The left seem to say “We’re not going to let you live on your own terms, we’re taking your backyard.” In the USA why the centre right insist on their right to bear arms.

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago

 probably nonexistent wave of ivermectin overdoses
Yeah… sure Tom.

Jonathan Bagley
Jonathan Bagley
3 years ago

I’d come across invermectin: mainly in the comments under mailonline articles. I suspected it would feature in the comments here, and I wasn’t disappointed. What is going on? Why has invermectin become a battle front? Like a new Brexit. Why has a section of society become obsessed with promoting and defending it? What does it symbolise and why is the apparent refusal to recognise it as the covid silver bullet so important? And for Christ’s sake, go somewhere else to talk about it. Unherd is fast going downhill.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
3 years ago

You were on the right path asking “why?” twice but apparently are ignoring the subject of the article.
The real question is why is there a push to block use of ivermectin (billions of doses used worldwide with well established safety profile), and just as importantly censor mention of it on social media and news.
I for one value informed discussion – I’ve certainly learned more in the comments than article

Jonathan Bagley
Jonathan Bagley
3 years ago

That isn’t my real question, but I think I’m getting closer to the answer. Those against vaccination need a plausible substitute to promote.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
3 years ago

It not either OR! That is the strawman being promoted in legacy media.

Jonathan Bagley
Jonathan Bagley
3 years ago

As I’ve never the phrase, I just googled “legacy media”. I think I’ve already wasted too much time here.

Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago

“Why has a section of society become obsessed with promoting and defending it?”

Because us conspiracy believers think ivermactin is Totally being suppressed so the vaccines can be pushed, for very suspect reasons. The ‘Vaccines’ are on emergency licence because no medecin exists, and if ivermectin was a medicine the vax license would be recalled.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
3 years ago

It is a battle front because millions of people are dying unnecessarily.