Great article, especially the discussion of the relationship between the intelligence agencies and big tech. Zuboff’s book is the second good reading recommendation I found on Unherd today.
“the discussion of the relationship between the intelligence agencies and big tech.”
“”The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”.”
Paddy Taylor
2 years ago
“We have been called out of our trivial concerns, ….” And yet, since that initial patriotic call to arms and taking the fight to the terrorists, what has concerned the US most? Gender pronouns and who gets to use which bathrooms. And you wonder why jihadists no longer fear the West
Comfort in the land of plenty allows diversions. The public fiddles while a culture dies. Youth hating who they are destroyed by being liberated. Hopefully temporary insanity as some in the world will be happy to take from their rich idleness.
Fennie Strange
2 years ago
“Inebriated by the exuberance of his own verbosity” seems an appropriate comment on the style of this piece, although the thoughtful content shows that Jacob Siegel knows his stuff.
Last edited 2 years ago by Fennie Strange
Dustshoe Richinrut
2 years ago
Immediately following the al-Qaeda terrorist truck bomb attacks on American embassies in Africa in 1998, which killed more than 220 people, the decision to fire missiles from US Navy ships against al-Qaeda bases in Afghanistan and in Africa were heavily criticised by world opinion. In most cases, that criticism viewed the American response as over the top.
The 2003 invasion of Iraq was a completion of what may have been what the Americans really wanted to do in 1991, following the …. liberation of Kuwait: to go all the way to Baghdad.
Young women in Afghanistan who want to make something of their lives, who were reliant on the American presence in Kabul and district, now have nowhere to go. Not even the big countries next to theirs offer anything much interesting.
“Americans really wanted to do in 1991,” – Bush senior definitely did want that. He needed Iraq as a counter to Iran. His son was simply stupid. Afghanistan was enough.
Chris Wheatley
2 years ago
I flew into Chicago on 7/11/11. The people who met me were amazed that I had the courage to fly on the day of the ten-year anniversary. I had forgotten completely and didn’t care.
For 60 years I have seen the Americans bombing and killing tens of thousands of people. Then with 7/11 they were hit on their own soil. And the world must now keep remembering this event.
I was ex military on Sept 11, 2001 and visiting in Seattle. I had already understood the corruption and degradation to the soul caused by empire. I had traveled around a bit at this point too and had a pretty good understanding of how others viewed the USA. That came from having a lot of open discussions with foreigners in poorer countries. I was supposed to fly in the afternoon that day and got stranded in Seattle for a week. I was trying to fly to Ohio. After they reopened the airports I made it into the terminal. I wound up sitting at an airport bar with a Filipino businessman and a microsoft engineer. I was in the middle. I got in a wide ranging discussion with the Filipino businessman and noticed a kind of gaped mouth shock on the microsoft engineer. He was horrified at what we were saying. We had even talked about the 1899 war that was lost to the US and any hope of independence after the Spanish American war concluded. I think we were getting into the Palestine issue when I guess he couldn’t take it anymore and blurted out that they weren’t perfect but he really thought the US government had our best interests at heart and were doing the best they could in the world. We both broke out into deep laughter and went back to talking amongst ourselves. I honestly don’t think the American people are bad. They are truly led around by the nose and most are completely clueless. I’ve studied this a lot. Particularly Bernays and the success of PR firms like Hill & Knowlton. Laura Dodsworth’s book on the Sage manipulations is good. Since that group has been discussed somewhat in the media it is out in the open and pretty easy for people to see and understand. In the US it is hidden. It is probably a national secret and the media isn’t allowed to discuss these manipulations but it has been how the US has been ruled for a very long time. From my standpoint the US is losing its empire. The people who have led the West understand this better than anyone. In a desperate attempt to maintain their positions of power they have resorted to biowarfare and technology to try and turn the tide. They are now waging war on their own people. We are getting a taste of what it is like to be a third world citizen and being targeted by more powerful entities. There is no protection anymore in the bubble of empire. The bubble isn’t big enough for the average citizen and our “elite” so they are trying to save themselves at any cost. This means less for us and probably less of us so they can consolidate control of the majority of resources under their remaining domain of control.
Galeti Tavas
2 years ago
I gave up on the article early on, it is a topic I very much like, but the endless cataloguing of that we already know, and the clever, but annoying of moralizing and critiquing and quoting all the actors in the game, it just makes too hard a slog to work through to get to the actual Point. But I finally skimmed through the chaff to find any grains…
“TIA intended to create a universal data mining system in which every kind of information ever collected on a person would be collated in one database. US authorities could then query and analyse the data — which, properly interpreted, would contain a composite portrait of every individual alive — with algorithms designed to detect patterns identified with criminals and terrorists.”
China does this, on every person in the world. I heard a million techies sit at desks harvesting data on everyone – who knows when some guy will be of interest, and meta data is its self very useful.
You know USA does it too, but less robustly than China as Chinese have a mania for snooping and spying just for its own sake, and also it is a huge ‘Jobs Program’ for them, and a driver of much Tech development.
“American democracy that had supposedly been lost in the “end of history” Nineties. Instead, they undermined its foundations and launched the United States into the anti-heroic era of human-bots, social automation and authoritarian technocracy.”
WHO? WHO in America did this? I am a global conspiracist believer, so agree with the premise, but I am sure disagree with the Who, When, Where, and Why. I look to the Social Media/Tech Moguls, the MSM, the Military Industrial Complex, the Pharma/Medical Complex, Finance industry (Banksters) the WEF, the Global Elites, Soros, the Post-Modernist Education Industry (the useful idiots of the Elites), the Democrat Party (and Republicans who are also owned by the ‘Donor Class Elites…. as Taking the West to Neo-Feudalism, best called ‘The New World Order’, but much more than this.
I wish he could go a layer deeper and find if there is more than bumbling and Jingoism and hubris of the Political elites wrecking things – if there is something more. Is America and the West just wandering into decline haphazardly? Or is it being pushed and led into decline purposefully?
I don’t think so. I think they tried and it didn’t work out. It has damaged their position in the world so they are trying to recover it by biowarfare. Joint Vision 2020 was first released in 2000 by the pentagon. Full Spectrum Dominance. There were several policy paper follow ups to this even tracking progress. The NeoCon method failed. They didn’t achieve it mainly due to Russia having a self preservation sense and rebuilding its defenses. The US military is about corruption, graft, and chest thumping. Once it met resistance it became known how weak it was in reality. It didn’t work so now they are trying Gates and Schwab’s plan. It all points to the same thing. Complete dominance and control over humanity.
I agree a hard read – but worth persisting. I can see the agency in the Government in China to hoover up data to exert fine grained control. I cannot see a collective agency in the US that will be any where near as effective, but, although fragmented in different tech companies, an enormous amount of data is being collected and stored and could be brought together in the future. I am in two minds about whether it matters. One can have a more rewarding life with the trust that comes from not lying so storing data that could catch you out in a lie need not restrict you. It does add to the ability to catch the “bad” guys. However it can be used for political control. Since individuals will not act collectively to curb the data collection they need to act as citizens to curb political abuses of it – surely most effective if it is non partisan? Otherwise it will be used in an arms war between political groups to the detriment of both. Is America and the West just wandering into decline haphazardly? Yes. Or is it being pushed and led into decline purposefully? No – unless the West gets in the way of China’s longterm nationalism.
“China does this, on every person in the world” – Nice one. But they are not nice to people who disagree with their management style.
Liz Walsh
2 years ago
Many of us here in America have begun to infer most of this, but Mr. Siegel does lay it out clearly. “Pinched nationalism” doesn’t look so bad now, eh? The folly of being militarized missionaries for the American way was always just that. Anyone who saw the You Tube video of the Afghan Army doing jumping jacks could have foreseen this debacle.
Great article, especially the discussion of the relationship between the intelligence agencies and big tech. Zuboff’s book is the second good reading recommendation I found on Unherd today.
“the discussion of the relationship between the intelligence agencies and big tech.”
“”The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”.”
“We have been called out of our trivial concerns, ….”
And yet, since that initial patriotic call to arms and taking the fight to the terrorists, what has concerned the US most?
Gender pronouns and who gets to use which bathrooms.
And you wonder why jihadists no longer fear the West
Comfort in the land of plenty allows diversions. The public fiddles while a culture dies. Youth hating who they are destroyed by being liberated. Hopefully temporary insanity as some in the world will be happy to take from their rich idleness.
“Inebriated by the exuberance of his own verbosity” seems an appropriate comment on the style of this piece, although the thoughtful content shows that Jacob Siegel knows his stuff.
Immediately following the al-Qaeda terrorist truck bomb attacks on American embassies in Africa in 1998, which killed more than 220 people, the decision to fire missiles from US Navy ships against al-Qaeda bases in Afghanistan and in Africa were heavily criticised by world opinion. In most cases, that criticism viewed the American response as over the top.
The 2003 invasion of Iraq was a completion of what may have been what the Americans really wanted to do in 1991, following the …. liberation of Kuwait: to go all the way to Baghdad.
Young women in Afghanistan who want to make something of their lives, who were reliant on the American presence in Kabul and district, now have nowhere to go. Not even the big countries next to theirs offer anything much interesting.
“Americans really wanted to do in 1991,” – Bush senior definitely did want that. He needed Iraq as a counter to Iran. His son was simply stupid. Afghanistan was enough.
I flew into Chicago on 7/11/11. The people who met me were amazed that I had the courage to fly on the day of the ten-year anniversary. I had forgotten completely and didn’t care.
For 60 years I have seen the Americans bombing and killing tens of thousands of people. Then with 7/11 they were hit on their own soil. And the world must now keep remembering this event.
I was ex military on Sept 11, 2001 and visiting in Seattle. I had already understood the corruption and degradation to the soul caused by empire. I had traveled around a bit at this point too and had a pretty good understanding of how others viewed the USA. That came from having a lot of open discussions with foreigners in poorer countries. I was supposed to fly in the afternoon that day and got stranded in Seattle for a week. I was trying to fly to Ohio. After they reopened the airports I made it into the terminal. I wound up sitting at an airport bar with a Filipino businessman and a microsoft engineer. I was in the middle. I got in a wide ranging discussion with the Filipino businessman and noticed a kind of gaped mouth shock on the microsoft engineer. He was horrified at what we were saying. We had even talked about the 1899 war that was lost to the US and any hope of independence after the Spanish American war concluded. I think we were getting into the Palestine issue when I guess he couldn’t take it anymore and blurted out that they weren’t perfect but he really thought the US government had our best interests at heart and were doing the best they could in the world. We both broke out into deep laughter and went back to talking amongst ourselves. I honestly don’t think the American people are bad. They are truly led around by the nose and most are completely clueless. I’ve studied this a lot. Particularly Bernays and the success of PR firms like Hill & Knowlton. Laura Dodsworth’s book on the Sage manipulations is good. Since that group has been discussed somewhat in the media it is out in the open and pretty easy for people to see and understand. In the US it is hidden. It is probably a national secret and the media isn’t allowed to discuss these manipulations but it has been how the US has been ruled for a very long time. From my standpoint the US is losing its empire. The people who have led the West understand this better than anyone. In a desperate attempt to maintain their positions of power they have resorted to biowarfare and technology to try and turn the tide. They are now waging war on their own people. We are getting a taste of what it is like to be a third world citizen and being targeted by more powerful entities. There is no protection anymore in the bubble of empire. The bubble isn’t big enough for the average citizen and our “elite” so they are trying to save themselves at any cost. This means less for us and probably less of us so they can consolidate control of the majority of resources under their remaining domain of control.
I gave up on the article early on, it is a topic I very much like, but the endless cataloguing of that we already know, and the clever, but annoying of moralizing and critiquing and quoting all the actors in the game, it just makes too hard a slog to work through to get to the actual Point. But I finally skimmed through the chaff to find any grains…
“TIA intended to create a universal data mining system in which every kind of information ever collected on a person would be collated in one database. US authorities could then query and analyse the data — which, properly interpreted, would contain a composite portrait of every individual alive — with algorithms designed to detect patterns identified with criminals and terrorists.”
China does this, on every person in the world. I heard a million techies sit at desks harvesting data on everyone – who knows when some guy will be of interest, and meta data is its self very useful.
You know USA does it too, but less robustly than China as Chinese have a mania for snooping and spying just for its own sake, and also it is a huge ‘Jobs Program’ for them, and a driver of much Tech development.
“American democracy that had supposedly been lost in the “end of history” Nineties. Instead, they undermined its foundations and launched the United States into the anti-heroic era of human-bots, social automation and authoritarian technocracy.”
WHO? WHO in America did this? I am a global conspiracist believer, so agree with the premise, but I am sure disagree with the Who, When, Where, and Why. I look to the Social Media/Tech Moguls, the MSM, the Military Industrial Complex, the Pharma/Medical Complex, Finance industry (Banksters) the WEF, the Global Elites, Soros, the Post-Modernist Education Industry (the useful idiots of the Elites), the Democrat Party (and Republicans who are also owned by the ‘Donor Class Elites…. as Taking the West to Neo-Feudalism, best called ‘The New World Order’, but much more than this.
I wish he could go a layer deeper and find if there is more than bumbling and Jingoism and hubris of the Political elites wrecking things – if there is something more. Is America and the West just wandering into decline haphazardly? Or is it being pushed and led into decline purposefully?
I don’t think so. I think they tried and it didn’t work out. It has damaged their position in the world so they are trying to recover it by biowarfare. Joint Vision 2020 was first released in 2000 by the pentagon. Full Spectrum Dominance. There were several policy paper follow ups to this even tracking progress. The NeoCon method failed. They didn’t achieve it mainly due to Russia having a self preservation sense and rebuilding its defenses. The US military is about corruption, graft, and chest thumping. Once it met resistance it became known how weak it was in reality. It didn’t work so now they are trying Gates and Schwab’s plan. It all points to the same thing. Complete dominance and control over humanity.
I agree a hard read – but worth persisting. I can see the agency in the Government in China to hoover up data to exert fine grained control. I cannot see a collective agency in the US that will be any where near as effective, but, although fragmented in different tech companies, an enormous amount of data is being collected and stored and could be brought together in the future. I am in two minds about whether it matters. One can have a more rewarding life with the trust that comes from not lying so storing data that could catch you out in a lie need not restrict you. It does add to the ability to catch the “bad” guys. However it can be used for political control. Since individuals will not act collectively to curb the data collection they need to act as citizens to curb political abuses of it – surely most effective if it is non partisan? Otherwise it will be used in an arms war between political groups to the detriment of both.
Is America and the West just wandering into decline haphazardly? Yes. Or is it being pushed and led into decline purposefully? No – unless the West gets in the way of China’s longterm nationalism.
“China does this, on every person in the world” – Nice one. But they are not nice to people who disagree with their management style.
Many of us here in America have begun to infer most of this, but Mr. Siegel does lay it out clearly. “Pinched nationalism” doesn’t look so bad now, eh? The folly of being militarized missionaries for the American way was always just that. Anyone who saw the You Tube video of the Afghan Army doing jumping jacks could have foreseen this debacle.