Whilst I am very glad that we are talking about this topic more, and the fact that the vast majority of people that end up in so-called “sex work” are in fact people that suffered significant abuse and need lots of help, I do always find Julies writing to be very grating.
She just can’t help any opportunity to get her misandry in, which frankly doesn’t actually help anything. You want to get men on side with female emancipation? Don’t constantly accuse them all of being rapists!
I could not agree more. For example, this is the first time I have read of an alleged white male obsession with underage black girls. And my dad never took me to a “ho” to make me into a a “man”. –In fact no one I know has had any such experience. Now I am perfectly aware that this is “anecdata” but as Ms. Bindel fails to provide any evidence for her generalizations I’ll repay her in the same coin. It is natural to have sympathy for abused and exploited people. But it is also natural to recoil in disgust and anger at cruel stereotypes, and to lose one’s sense of solidarity with the bullies who hurl them, well-meaning though such self-styled “warriors” may be. In the end, like so many others, Ms. Bindel prefers fighting her war to winning it.
I sympathize with your reaction, but I don’t think you are the type of man that goes to prostitutes at all? In which case you are not at all in the cohort of men that this woman came across in her degraded life. Those men do not announce their proclivities so normal men will not hear about it.
I agree. It is indisputable that human trafficking exists (for example) but I personally have never met a admitted trafficker – does that mean it does not exist? Given the numbers, I should have run into a few. I have also not met anyone into BDSM or swinging or fans of child porn. Logically, I conclude that (unsurprisingly) these are things people keep secret or only discuss with only others in the same club.
Stephen Rose
2 years ago
A truly harrowing account of coercive, brutalised sex work. A testament to the strength of the woman who survived it.It is shocking the way human beings can reduce another to such degradation.
I have had a little experience meeting sex workers that might illuminate the notion that experiences may vary.
Between the late 80’s and early 2000’s
I taught life drawing and portrait painting as a peripertetic art teacher in London, suburbs and home counties. Many of the models were the usual run of actors, dancers, gymnasts, firemen, body builders and yoga instructors.
On closer acquaintance a few revealed that they were or had been sex workers. It seemed quite normal to combine this with other work.I distinctly remember a dominatrix who was also a driving instructor, an accountant who worked as a male escort, hotel receptionist who was a female escort and a fashion journalist who worked as a sex worker, whose life was more like that of a courtesan.
They were necessarily attractive, educated people with significant insight into their own lives and the lives of others.
The work was congenial to them and paid for expensive rent in smart areas and provided middle class luxuries, like cars, holidays, horses and schooling.l think this lifestyle is more prevalent than we imagine.
Today Instagram and only fans sites seems to generate similar incomes with less necessity for direct contact,which allows for greater autonomy and safety.
I suppose ones position will depend on individual morality, some people cannot tolerate any kind of sex work,which they believe is universally degrading.
Fair enough, I am not disputing the harrowing account of the sex workers, trafficked and brutalised by pimps and the men that they are forced to have sex with. The title of the piece is Sex workers aren’t workers they are slaves. I stated that experience may vary, providing some examples from my admittedly limited experience of those sex workers that I have met.
In Chicago they were most likely American. Pimps should be drowned at birth and their Mothers charged with “Crimes against Humanity” Up to the age of 16 I lived in the dock area of my town (Now a city). One of my sisters (Now dead) was self employed “on the game” part time in between marriages and said she enjoyed the life but would break her daughters’ necks if they tried it. As a shipmaster I banned pimps but would allow the self-employed with a warning about ‘bad’ behaviour – drunkeness, drugs, strong language, etc. The only time I banned 2 ‘self-employed’ girls was in Capetown and they were both white. We had several girls onboard (of various skin tones) and when the local police sergeant knocked on my door he found me playing gin rummy with the ‘Mama San’. When I offered the PS a beer my fiendish gin- rummy opponent, a cape coloured woman, went to open the fridge door he raised a finger and got his own beer. It was a British ship and crew. He then accepted the explanation we gave about the 2 white ‘girls’. Nowadays, of course, the drug scene has made life much worse but life goes on. Once in a while I see one of the ‘girls’ in town and wave in greeting. If she’s got a man and two kids in tow we ignore each other. In the course of my duties military and mercantile the only person (of several) whose death I am personally responsible for and for whom I lack any remorse was a pimp who took a knife to me. He was a Somali, nominally Moslem who “had drink taken”.
I’m afraid that you’ve only encountered the tiny minority of ‘sex workers’ who retain functional lives outside the trade, and it sounds like you got to meet them because they are the minority who aren’t controlled by pimps, traffickers or their own trauma/addictions. The vast majority of people in the trade are not so fortunate.
I imagine those “johns” who see the fortunate minority might make for very good allies in liberating the oppressed majority. If only Bindel would consider it.
David Yetter
2 years ago
But slaves are workers who work unwillingly and under duress. Were it easy to study the grey and black market economies, it would be possible to discern what proportion of prostitutes are living in actual slavery or slave-like conditions as was Ms. Myers-Powell, what proportion like those Chris Scott describes in Brazil willingly enter into the sex trade to overcome poverty, and what proportion actually fit the idealized picture of “sex work” as “empowering” that sex-positive feminists like the present. I strongly suspect, albeit without data support my view, that the I have listed the categories in decreasing order of size, and that as a statistical generality, the position of the article is correct, counterexamples from the other two categories notwithstanding.
Hubert Knobscratch
2 years ago
“Sex work?
I don’t have employment rights,
I don’t have any vacation time,
I don’t have a retirement plan.”
I’m a consultant in the engineering industry
I don’t have employment rights.
I don’t have any vacation time.
I don’t have a retirement plan, unless I pay for it all myself.
I pay corporation tax, National insurance, income tax and VAT – I don’t mind too much, UK plc has paid for my education, makes me better when I’m ill, and provides a decent society to live in.
If you want society’s support – then start paying for it.
There are some who have genuinely struggled – see above – or are having a metaphorical gun held to their head, but for others it’s a choice.
Let’s make sure we are comparing apples with apples.
Chris Scott
2 years ago
It really depends on where you are. Here is South America whilst there is exploitation and trafficking, there are women who seem to choose prostitution as a career choice in order to overcome the crushing poverty and pitifully low wages; they can earn enough money in one hour that would take them a week to make if she were working in a supermarket, for example. Often this money supports her family. Also, some work part-time in the sex trade to top up the family’s weekly income.
Obviously, it isn’t because wages are so low which is driving women into this work.
Rasmus Fogh
2 years ago
This story is horrible, and I would agree with Julie on it. How far it generalises is more difficult. You can be against prostitution on moral grounds. But if the point is to help the people involved you could argue on pure principle that people choose (‘choose’?) sex work because it is better than the alternatives. The way to help them would be to give them some better alternatives, not to close down this one.
A couple of quotes, from memory:
Ally Fogg (left wing campaigner): For a heavy drug addict there are very few jobs you can manage. Apart from prostitution there is begging, dealing, thieving, and scrap metal collection. The alternatives are not necessarily any less soul-destroying that prostitution.
Mechanima (Guardian debate contributor): Says to be Irish, ex-sex-worker, runaway at 16, always hated sex work, and had been extremely reluctant to take it up.
She also says: “I bear no resentment towards the johns – if it had not been for them I would not be alive today. I am angry with my family, social workers, all those who could have helped me, but did not“.
And about Brooke Magnanti: “She is not one of us. But the things she wants are the same things we want.“
Last edited 2 years ago by Rasmus Fogh
Don Lightband
2 years ago
My god, what a monunental CROCK! ONE sensationalized misery memoir and Bindel is fantastically arrogant enough to proclaim on 92, 000, 000 sex workers!
“Bindel is fantastically arrogant enough to proclaim on 92, 000, 000 sex workers!”
OK, Bindel overstepped there, the situation she alludes to (at a range of levels) only effects 91,300,000, the others are living life on easy street and having the time of their lives.
Perhaps Myers-Powell is exaggerating her own story – who knows? Have you ever met anyone who works in the grittier end of the trade, or who has been trafficked or abused from childhood? I have, through work, and some of their stories make Myers-Powell’s look tame. She can never speak for every person in the trade and there is obviously a broad range of experiences, but she can speak for a significant number.
John Riordan
2 years ago
They’re slaves?
Who owns them?
Jon Redman
2 years ago
men bring their underage sons to her, wanting her to take their son’s virginity and make him ‘a man’.
No, they don’t. You made that up.
But there’s also a sense of entitlement that is inculcated in men: the very idea that they have the right to buy women’s bodies
No, there isn’t. You made that up.
they have been told it’s their right as males
No, they have not. You made that up.
prostitution was only one aspect of a wider problem of male attitudes.
Change ‘male’ and ‘men’ in this article to ‘black’ and you’d never get published. This nonsense is vicious, vicious hate speech. Why does Unherd give a voice to this repellent bigot?
William Shaw
2 years ago
Julie Bindel always undermines her own case, even when she has a valid point, by engaging in extreme and blatant misandry.
What’s sad is that her reporting on serious issues more often than not makes for humorous reading because she inevitably gets side tracked into telling us that all men are oppressors of women.
Hilary Easton
2 years ago
Terrible story but I can’t agree that sex work is necessarily slavery, at least as an adult, though it is for children and it may be for those who are trafficked.
For one thing they are paid, for another thing there is the possibility of leaving, as this woman’s did eventually. Also, there are clearly some sex workers who chose the life, and save up to do something else later in life.
Whilst I am very glad that we are talking about this topic more, and the fact that the vast majority of people that end up in so-called “sex work” are in fact people that suffered significant abuse and need lots of help, I do always find Julies writing to be very grating.
She just can’t help any opportunity to get her misandry in, which frankly doesn’t actually help anything. You want to get men on side with female emancipation? Don’t constantly accuse them all of being rapists!
I could not agree more. For example, this is the first time I have read of an alleged white male obsession with underage black girls. And my dad never took me to a “ho” to make me into a a “man”. –In fact no one I know has had any such experience. Now I am perfectly aware that this is “anecdata” but as Ms. Bindel fails to provide any evidence for her generalizations I’ll repay her in the same coin. It is natural to have sympathy for abused and exploited people. But it is also natural to recoil in disgust and anger at cruel stereotypes, and to lose one’s sense of solidarity with the bullies who hurl them, well-meaning though such self-styled “warriors” may be. In the end, like so many others, Ms. Bindel prefers fighting her war to winning it.
I sympathize with your reaction, but I don’t think you are the type of man that goes to prostitutes at all? In which case you are not at all in the cohort of men that this woman came across in her degraded life. Those men do not announce their proclivities so normal men will not hear about it.
I agree. It is indisputable that human trafficking exists (for example) but I personally have never met a admitted trafficker – does that mean it does not exist? Given the numbers, I should have run into a few. I have also not met anyone into BDSM or swinging or fans of child porn. Logically, I conclude that (unsurprisingly) these are things people keep secret or only discuss with only others in the same club.
A truly harrowing account of coercive, brutalised sex work. A testament to the strength of the woman who survived it.It is shocking the way human beings can reduce another to such degradation.
I have had a little experience meeting sex workers that might illuminate the notion that experiences may vary.
Between the late 80’s and early 2000’s
I taught life drawing and portrait painting as a peripertetic art teacher in London, suburbs and home counties. Many of the models were the usual run of actors, dancers, gymnasts, firemen, body builders and yoga instructors.
On closer acquaintance a few revealed that they were or had been sex workers. It seemed quite normal to combine this with other work.I distinctly remember a dominatrix who was also a driving instructor, an accountant who worked as a male escort, hotel receptionist who was a female escort and a fashion journalist who worked as a sex worker, whose life was more like that of a courtesan.
They were necessarily attractive, educated people with significant insight into their own lives and the lives of others.
The work was congenial to them and paid for expensive rent in smart areas and provided middle class luxuries, like cars, holidays, horses and schooling.l think this lifestyle is more prevalent than we imagine.
Today Instagram and only fans sites seems to generate similar incomes with less necessity for direct contact,which allows for greater autonomy and safety.
I suppose ones position will depend on individual morality, some people cannot tolerate any kind of sex work,which they believe is universally degrading.
I think your experience is completely irrelevant to the situation of the women described in the article.
Then talk about “those prostitues whom are slaves” not the misleading “[all] prostitues are slaves”.
Fair enough, I am not disputing the harrowing account of the sex workers, trafficked and brutalised by pimps and the men that they are forced to have sex with. The title of the piece is Sex workers aren’t workers they are slaves. I stated that experience may vary, providing some examples from my admittedly limited experience of those sex workers that I have met.
I wonder what race the pimps were?
In Chicago they were most likely American. Pimps should be drowned at birth and their Mothers charged with “Crimes against Humanity” Up to the age of 16 I lived in the dock area of my town (Now a city). One of my sisters (Now dead) was self employed “on the game” part time in between marriages and said she enjoyed the life but would break her daughters’ necks if they tried it. As a shipmaster I banned pimps but would allow the self-employed with a warning about ‘bad’ behaviour – drunkeness, drugs, strong language, etc. The only time I banned 2 ‘self-employed’ girls was in Capetown and they were both white. We had several girls onboard (of various skin tones) and when the local police sergeant knocked on my door he found me playing gin rummy with the ‘Mama San’. When I offered the PS a beer my fiendish gin- rummy opponent, a cape coloured woman, went to open the fridge door he raised a finger and got his own beer. It was a British ship and crew. He then accepted the explanation we gave about the 2 white ‘girls’. Nowadays, of course, the drug scene has made life much worse but life goes on. Once in a while I see one of the ‘girls’ in town and wave in greeting. If she’s got a man and two kids in tow we ignore each other. In the course of my duties military and mercantile the only person (of several) whose death I am personally responsible for and for whom I lack any remorse was a pimp who took a knife to me. He was a Somali, nominally Moslem who “had drink taken”.
I’m afraid that you’ve only encountered the tiny minority of ‘sex workers’ who retain functional lives outside the trade, and it sounds like you got to meet them because they are the minority who aren’t controlled by pimps, traffickers or their own trauma/addictions. The vast majority of people in the trade are not so fortunate.
I imagine those “johns” who see the fortunate minority might make for very good allies in liberating the oppressed majority. If only Bindel would consider it.
But slaves are workers who work unwillingly and under duress. Were it easy to study the grey and black market economies, it would be possible to discern what proportion of prostitutes are living in actual slavery or slave-like conditions as was Ms. Myers-Powell, what proportion like those Chris Scott describes in Brazil willingly enter into the sex trade to overcome poverty, and what proportion actually fit the idealized picture of “sex work” as “empowering” that sex-positive feminists like the present. I strongly suspect, albeit without data support my view, that the I have listed the categories in decreasing order of size, and that as a statistical generality, the position of the article is correct, counterexamples from the other two categories notwithstanding.
“Sex work?
I don’t have employment rights,
I don’t have any vacation time,
I don’t have a retirement plan.”
I’m a consultant in the engineering industry
I don’t have employment rights.
I don’t have any vacation time.
I don’t have a retirement plan, unless I pay for it all myself.
I pay corporation tax, National insurance, income tax and VAT – I don’t mind too much, UK plc has paid for my education, makes me better when I’m ill, and provides a decent society to live in.
If you want society’s support – then start paying for it.
There are some who have genuinely struggled – see above – or are having a metaphorical gun held to their head, but for others it’s a choice.
Let’s make sure we are comparing apples with apples.
It really depends on where you are. Here is South America whilst there is exploitation and trafficking, there are women who seem to choose prostitution as a career choice in order to overcome the crushing poverty and pitifully low wages; they can earn enough money in one hour that would take them a week to make if she were working in a supermarket, for example. Often this money supports her family. Also, some work part-time in the sex trade to top up the family’s weekly income.
Well that’s ok then!
Obviously, it isn’t because wages are so low which is driving women into this work.
This story is horrible, and I would agree with Julie on it. How far it generalises is more difficult. You can be against prostitution on moral grounds. But if the point is to help the people involved you could argue on pure principle that people choose (‘choose’?) sex work because it is better than the alternatives. The way to help them would be to give them some better alternatives, not to close down this one.
A couple of quotes, from memory:
Ally Fogg (left wing campaigner): For a heavy drug addict there are very few jobs you can manage. Apart from prostitution there is begging, dealing, thieving, and scrap metal collection. The alternatives are not necessarily any less soul-destroying that prostitution.
Mechanima (Guardian debate contributor): Says to be Irish, ex-sex-worker, runaway at 16, always hated sex work, and had been extremely reluctant to take it up.
She also says: “I bear no resentment towards the johns – if it had not been for them I would not be alive today. I am angry with my family, social workers, all those who could have helped me, but did not“.
And about Brooke Magnanti: “She is not one of us. But the things she wants are the same things we want.“
My god, what a monunental CROCK! ONE sensationalized misery memoir and Bindel is fantastically arrogant enough to proclaim on 92, 000, 000 sex workers!
“Bindel is fantastically arrogant enough to proclaim on 92, 000, 000 sex workers!”
OK, Bindel overstepped there, the situation she alludes to (at a range of levels) only effects 91,300,000, the others are living life on easy street and having the time of their lives.
Perhaps Myers-Powell is exaggerating her own story – who knows? Have you ever met anyone who works in the grittier end of the trade, or who has been trafficked or abused from childhood? I have, through work, and some of their stories make Myers-Powell’s look tame. She can never speak for every person in the trade and there is obviously a broad range of experiences, but she can speak for a significant number.
They’re slaves?
Who owns them?
No, they don’t. You made that up.
No, there isn’t. You made that up.
No, they have not. You made that up.
Change ‘male’ and ‘men’ in this article to ‘black’ and you’d never get published.
This nonsense is vicious, vicious hate speech. Why does Unherd give a voice to this repellent bigot?
Julie Bindel always undermines her own case, even when she has a valid point, by engaging in extreme and blatant misandry.
What’s sad is that her reporting on serious issues more often than not makes for humorous reading because she inevitably gets side tracked into telling us that all men are oppressors of women.
Terrible story but I can’t agree that sex work is necessarily slavery, at least as an adult, though it is for children and it may be for those who are trafficked.
For one thing they are paid, for another thing there is the possibility of leaving, as this woman’s did eventually. Also, there are clearly some sex workers who chose the life, and save up to do something else later in life.