Link? There’s a tendency to blame the EU for everything on this website. I doubt if funding for university places was the reason the entire Irish parliament across all parties voted for this.
Lesley van Reenen
2 years ago
Thanks Debbie for this piece – ever the calm, thoughtful, knowledgable voice on transgender issues. When the faults in radical trans policies are exposed by a widespread eruption of crimes, riots and violence there could be a backlash against all trans people and that is not what is wanted or needed.
By the way, I am not a cis-woman, I am a women. The outrage.
I don’t think birth certificates should be changeable at all. Gender Recognition, after due medical/therapeutic consideration, should be a sort of addendum. Not a rewriting of historical fact.
Also, a birth certificate is a legal document. I think the realm of law is key here for it does not mean that in the realm of reality or fact they have changed sex. ‘They will be treated in law as something that they are not in reality'[Prof Rosa Freedman], that is, by changing a person’s sex on their birth certificate a legal fiction is created in that they will be ‘treated in law as member of the sex that is not their biological sex'[Prof Freedman]
It seems to me that there might be a misunderstanding as to which domain – Law or reality, takes precedence in a given dispute?
Yes. The birth cert is a legal document. In law then the judges would have no choice but to accept the birth cert. in the Limerick case of the violent transwomen was removed to a male facility s/he could sue.
I agree. A medical certificate should be sufficient. Changing a birth certificate is rewriting history.
Peter LR
2 years ago
Sorry to hear of all the antagonism you are getting for being honest, Debbie. Glad it’s not happening here on UnHerd where candour seems to be respected.
Thank you. It is a robust debate, but I’m made of strong stuff.
Francis MacGabhann
2 years ago
When are people going to get it into their heads that some things just ARE? That just because you WANT to be the other sex doesn’t mean you are or can be? I WANT to be handsome, charismatic and devastatingly attractive to women, but on the best day of my life I was barely even presentable. I got over it. If you’ll pardon the expression, man up.
“It is not hateful to make factual claims such as “transwomen are not female and therefore not women”, nor is it transphobic to apply safeguarding procedures appropriate to an individual’s biological sex.”
The problem of course is that we’re all too worried about transphobia itself. My position on this is that I think biological sex is real, and that it is nonsensical to expect the law to recognise a person’s sex on the basis of their own assertion as opposed to their immutable genetic characteristics. There are some people out there who will call me transphobic for saying this, to whom I say: “Fine, I’m transphobic. If that’s how we now describe people who put observable facts before politics, I’m proud to be transphobic.”
It’s time to recognise that accusations of transphobia are nothing more than cynical weaponising of charges of prejudice which are never substantive. Until this changes, we’re stuck with the tyranny of these cretinous activists.
Simon Denis
2 years ago
The destruction of birth certificates would be Orwellian – the memory-holing of truth.
Andrea X
2 years ago
I feel this article misses the point.
You don’t do these changes in legislation not because they could be misused or because the public may or may not be unhappy about them, but because they are wrong. The fact that in Ireland there have been incidents related to it, for me is neither here nor there. There could have been 0 incidents or 100, but incidents aren’t the point.
The fact that females and same sex attraction are erased is. The fact that statistics would be meaningless is. And the stereotypical way women end up being characterized most certainly is.
I agree with you. However, what statistics we make, what stereotypes we use, and who gets into which prisons is ultimately for us, collectively to decide. if gender self-certification had a clear majority support, we would have to grin and bear it. The majority might be wrong, but in a democratic society it would still have the right to decide laws and norms.
Yes and no.
People are all in favour of low taxations (for them) and big hand-outs (for them), but it is for the government to prioritise.
The government governs on our behalf and not by proxy. For such an epochal transformation to be allowed, you would need A LOT of soul searching, pondering and reflecting, not just a fleeting majority (which in this case doesn’t exist).
Say, a lot of people are for capital punishment, but you don’t see the government pushing that agenda.
The fact that females and same sex attraction are erased is.
I noticed a GRC is required in order change one’s legal sex. I presume a ‘legal fiction’ must be created in order for a GRC to be created? This is interesting for Irish Law may differ from English law in this regard and with the Equality Act 2010.
For example, in the case of Goodwin Vs UK “The European Court … did not rule that her biological sex had changed, nor did it challenge the UK definition of sex being about biology. As a direct result of that case, the UK passed the Gender Recognition Act. … a Gender Recognition Certificate that allows them to change the sex on their birth certificate. This creates what is known as a ‘legal fiction’ in that a person will be treated in law as something that they are not in reality (i.e. they will be treated as a member of the sex that is not their biological sex). … There are exemptions in the Equality Act that allow sex-segregated spaces where they are proportionate and legitimate. That also includes in some circumstances excluding trans individuals who hold a GRC. [Prof Rosa Freedman]
Does Irish Law not make similar exemptions?
The Irish law had no exemptions. Exemptions (sports etc) were put in at the first reading but were argued against by all parties during the process. I would like to know exactly who was advising them.
A review of the law in 2018 recommended reducing the age of self ID to 16 from 18. Nothing else was mentioned.
Good point, but tell that to the women who have been attacked and in some cases raped by transexuals in prison. It has happened in the UK too. There are some serious situations that arise from this.
Thank you. I take the point about right and wrong. What has happenned in Ireland is in my view wrong. The polling was central to this piece because it has just been poublished, and because we are told that there are no problems in Ireland, and the Irish population is happy with it all.
chris4
2 years ago
Debbie, thank you so much for posting this. As a transgender activist yourself you clearly see the damage which can be caused by bad legislation brought in with minimal (or no) debate. I am also concerned about the role and definition of women being displaced, not because I want any group marginalised or treated badly but to keep us all safe and included we need open and honest debate without manipulation or fear.
Thanks! I’m transgender and I’m an activist so I claim the term transgender activist. But, my activism is rooted in science and reason so it is distinct from other transgender activism.
I think it does. If self-declaration is sufficient to change an actual birth certificate, then there is a policy of acceptance of the claim, no ‘tests for truth’, as it were.
Yes it does. You can self declare whenever you like.
John Wilkes
2 years ago
I watched a Parliamentary debate on this the other week. Anna Eagle (Lab) was complaining that because of delays in registering people’s newly self avowed ‘sex’ women (and by this she meant self declared women) were missing out on pension entitlements.
I looked this up and it appears to be true. If I declare myself to be a woman, being in my late 50s I will be able to claim my state pension a year earlier, as well as paying substantially less for life insurance. This is being kept very quiet, probably until retirement ages are fully equalised.
I haven’t decided whether to do this or not. It seems dishonest by why should I not receive my pension at the same age as women friends? It isn’t as if I need to tell any friends about my transition, and I could retransition when entitled to a male pension.
This may be a light hearted comment but is another example of what can happen when subjective truth (“my own truth”) is seen as being more valid than objective truth.
Hugh Marcus
2 years ago
Interesting article. The truth is, that governments often do best is, unintended consequences. This is especially true if they’re trying to respond to trend or public pressure to create new laws.
Two things are taking place here:
And Eurasmus+ funding.
Link? There’s a tendency to blame the EU for everything on this website. I doubt if funding for university places was the reason the entire Irish parliament across all parties voted for this.
Thanks Debbie for this piece – ever the calm, thoughtful, knowledgable voice on transgender issues. When the faults in radical trans policies are exposed by a widespread eruption of crimes, riots and violence there could be a backlash against all trans people and that is not what is wanted or needed.
By the way, I am not a cis-woman, I am a women. The outrage.
Thank you.
I don’t think birth certificates should be changeable at all. Gender Recognition, after due medical/therapeutic consideration, should be a sort of addendum. Not a rewriting of historical fact.
Also, a birth certificate is a legal document. I think the realm of law is key here for it does not mean that in the realm of reality or fact they have changed sex. ‘They will be treated in law as something that they are not in reality'[Prof Rosa Freedman], that is, by changing a person’s sex on their birth certificate a legal fiction is created in that they will be ‘treated in law as member of the sex that is not their biological sex'[Prof Freedman]
It seems to me that there might be a misunderstanding as to which domain – Law or reality, takes precedence in a given dispute?
Yes. The birth cert is a legal document. In law then the judges would have no choice but to accept the birth cert. in the Limerick case of the violent transwomen was removed to a male facility s/he could sue.
I agree. A medical certificate should be sufficient. Changing a birth certificate is rewriting history.
Sorry to hear of all the antagonism you are getting for being honest, Debbie. Glad it’s not happening here on UnHerd where candour seems to be respected.
Thank you. It is a robust debate, but I’m made of strong stuff.
When are people going to get it into their heads that some things just ARE? That just because you WANT to be the other sex doesn’t mean you are or can be? I WANT to be handsome, charismatic and devastatingly attractive to women, but on the best day of my life I was barely even presentable. I got over it. If you’ll pardon the expression, man up.
In my mind I’m all of those things you wanted to be. Reality is harsh sometimes, isn’t it?
Hah! In my mind, I’m all that, plus rich!
“It is not hateful to make factual claims such as “transwomen are not female and therefore not women”, nor is it transphobic to apply safeguarding procedures appropriate to an individual’s biological sex.”
The problem of course is that we’re all too worried about transphobia itself. My position on this is that I think biological sex is real, and that it is nonsensical to expect the law to recognise a person’s sex on the basis of their own assertion as opposed to their immutable genetic characteristics. There are some people out there who will call me transphobic for saying this, to whom I say: “Fine, I’m transphobic. If that’s how we now describe people who put observable facts before politics, I’m proud to be transphobic.”
It’s time to recognise that accusations of transphobia are nothing more than cynical weaponising of charges of prejudice which are never substantive. Until this changes, we’re stuck with the tyranny of these cretinous activists.
The destruction of birth certificates would be Orwellian – the memory-holing of truth.
I feel this article misses the point.
You don’t do these changes in legislation not because they could be misused or because the public may or may not be unhappy about them, but because they are wrong. The fact that in Ireland there have been incidents related to it, for me is neither here nor there. There could have been 0 incidents or 100, but incidents aren’t the point.
The fact that females and same sex attraction are erased is. The fact that statistics would be meaningless is. And the stereotypical way women end up being characterized most certainly is.
I agree with you. However, what statistics we make, what stereotypes we use, and who gets into which prisons is ultimately for us, collectively to decide. if gender self-certification had a clear majority support, we would have to grin and bear it. The majority might be wrong, but in a democratic society it would still have the right to decide laws and norms.
Yes and no.
People are all in favour of low taxations (for them) and big hand-outs (for them), but it is for the government to prioritise.
The government governs on our behalf and not by proxy. For such an epochal transformation to be allowed, you would need A LOT of soul searching, pondering and reflecting, not just a fleeting majority (which in this case doesn’t exist).
Say, a lot of people are for capital punishment, but you don’t see the government pushing that agenda.
The fact that females and same sex attraction are erased is.
I noticed a GRC is required in order change one’s legal sex. I presume a ‘legal fiction’ must be created in order for a GRC to be created? This is interesting for Irish Law may differ from English law in this regard and with the Equality Act 2010.
For example, in the case of Goodwin Vs UK “The European Court … did not rule that her biological sex had changed, nor did it challenge the UK definition of sex being about biology. As a direct result of that case, the UK passed the Gender Recognition Act. … a Gender Recognition Certificate that allows them to change the sex on their birth certificate. This creates what is known as a ‘legal fiction’ in that a person will be treated in law as something that they are not in reality (i.e. they will be treated as a member of the sex that is not their biological sex). … There are exemptions in the Equality Act that allow sex-segregated spaces where they are proportionate and legitimate. That also includes in some circumstances excluding trans individuals who hold a GRC. [Prof Rosa Freedman]
Does Irish Law not make similar exemptions?
The Irish law had no exemptions. Exemptions (sports etc) were put in at the first reading but were argued against by all parties during the process. I would like to know exactly who was advising them.
A review of the law in 2018 recommended reducing the age of self ID to 16 from 18. Nothing else was mentioned.
Good point, but tell that to the women who have been attacked and in some cases raped by transexuals in prison. It has happened in the UK too. There are some serious situations that arise from this.
Thank you. I take the point about right and wrong. What has happenned in Ireland is in my view wrong. The polling was central to this piece because it has just been poublished, and because we are told that there are no problems in Ireland, and the Irish population is happy with it all.
Debbie, thank you so much for posting this. As a transgender activist yourself you clearly see the damage which can be caused by bad legislation brought in with minimal (or no) debate. I am also concerned about the role and definition of women being displaced, not because I want any group marginalised or treated badly but to keep us all safe and included we need open and honest debate without manipulation or fear.
Debbie might want to correct me on this, but I don’t think she is (or sees herself as) a “transgender” activist.
Thanks! I’m transgender and I’m an activist so I claim the term transgender activist. But, my activism is rooted in science and reason so it is distinct from other transgender activism.
We will need a bigger asylum soon.
I’m coming to believe the entire world will be the asylum. Born pessimist, I guess.
I wonder if the law allows you to self-declare a different sex in the period of time between arrest and court case …..
I think it does. If self-declaration is sufficient to change an actual birth certificate, then there is a policy of acceptance of the claim, no ‘tests for truth’, as it were.
Very worrying ….
Yes it does. You can self declare whenever you like.
I watched a Parliamentary debate on this the other week. Anna Eagle (Lab) was complaining that because of delays in registering people’s newly self avowed ‘sex’ women (and by this she meant self declared women) were missing out on pension entitlements.
I looked this up and it appears to be true. If I declare myself to be a woman, being in my late 50s I will be able to claim my state pension a year earlier, as well as paying substantially less for life insurance. This is being kept very quiet, probably until retirement ages are fully equalised.
I haven’t decided whether to do this or not. It seems dishonest by why should I not receive my pension at the same age as women friends? It isn’t as if I need to tell any friends about my transition, and I could retransition when entitled to a male pension.
This may be a light hearted comment but is another example of what can happen when subjective truth (“my own truth”) is seen as being more valid than objective truth.
Interesting article. The truth is, that governments often do best is, unintended consequences. This is especially true if they’re trying to respond to trend or public pressure to create new laws.