If your middle class sensitivities don’t like some boisterous songs sung while playing one of our greatest rivals, who lets face it have been a far better side than England for the last 50 years, then may I suggest you go back to a posh sport such as rugby with its polite applause of the opposition.
People who go to football like it the way it is, colourful language and offensive songs and all. It’s part of the game, for 90 minutes I’m allowed to be obnoxious for no reason other than basic tribalism, and the next day everybody goes back to how we were before.
Quite so – too many people want to tone-police everything into polite greyness.
Stephen Rose
2 years ago
With German family and many German friends, I can tell you German newspapers like Bild, have their own jingoism. Also whisper this, rather than a nation in decline my extensive German family, admire and respect the British, possibly more than any other European nation. Including our engineers, BMW bought Rover because it had a good rep in Germany, they could n’t understand why Brits wouldn’t buy them. I am constantly told by German friends, the mittle strand is doomed, because they aren’t innovating like the Brits, with their hi tech business.
Don’t project your disdain and extrapolate about Britain being rubbish because of our footie failures, Oh we just won 2-0.I’ll have to keep a low profile at home now.
It has come to some pass when those of us with German family and Irish people like me, with a British family, sigh when we hear such self flaggellation. In the main it appears to be a middle class trope, they feel the need to genuflect, which would be fine(ish!) if they did not simultaneously criticise those who do not agree with their assessment of the UK, especially England and it’s people. Give yourselves a break, this country is not perfect, which is, certainly not Germany or Ireland, and as I have said before I cannot emphasise enough to you how you need to stop pandering and flogging yourselves about external criticisms from Ireland and elsewhere, you do yourselves a disservice. I have lived in many countries, on three continents, and the UK, and the majority of, its people have a lot to be proud of.
Last edited 2 years ago by Ana Cronin
Cheryl Jones
2 years ago
Show me a country that *doesn’t* have a particular rivalry with another. In this world where ‘multiculturalism’ and ‘diversity’ are meant to be celebrated, the English deserve their own peculiarities of culture too, warts and all. We’re an island nation with a long and convoluted and peculiar history that has made us what we are. A few thugs don’t represent us any more than the intelligentsia do, and if the Germans don’t like the mickey being taken out of them, tough.
And a non traditional result. Nice one, England.
Oh, and by the way, like me lots of Australians barrack for England in soccer, as long as Australia is not playing (which is a lot). The cricket, however…
Last edited 2 years ago by Tony Taylor
Joffre Woods
2 years ago
I think when Winston said those famous words “we shall never surrender” in relation to our perilous relationship with Germany at the time, and then we didn’t surrender- even though at times it seemed like a good idea- and then eventually, the Germans surrendered, well I think at that point Winston should have said words to the effect of “we don’t need to worry about never surrendering anymore”, because what’s happened is we’ve taken it literally regarding the Germans ever since, and transferred it to the football. It’s not dissimilar to those famously loyal Japanese soldiers, some of whom to this day, are still holding the line, in the South Pacific.
John Hope
2 years ago
“Two world wars and one World Cup, do-dah, do-dah…”
That’s what always comes into my head when England play Germany. I guess we’re both showing our age!
Julian Rigg
2 years ago
If only we had surrendered or agreed a cease fire with Nazi Germany in 1940. We would certainly be wealthier now and much less people would have died aside from the 6 million+ Jews.
Importantly Ed West and the privileged, entitled middle class would not have to hear and read about the plebs slating the Germans around football matches (normally in jest).
Enjoy driving your BMW/ Audi/Mercedes/VW Ed… I’ll buy you a pawn sandwich if I ever I meet you.
Shame then about the entire nationalities – Poles, Czechs, Slovenes, Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians – condemned to extermination, enslavement, deportation or – if they were sufficiently Nordic, Germanisation, losing their countries and identities in the process.
For all the downsides of fighting the war to its very bitter end, we had to do it for the sake of the European race.
Christopher Gelber
2 years ago
I’m sure Ed is right when he suggests an inverse correlation between the vigour and confidence of a nation and its obsession with events of long ago. Funny, as since then there has been much else for the UK to be proud of: the Beatles, Stones, Who, Zeppelin, Elton, Bowie, Hockney, Amis Kingsley and Martin, Christopher Hitchens, Dylan Thomas, and so much more. I guess football fans are as unaware of any of it as they seem unaware that the House of Windsor is also the House of Saxe Coburg-Gotha, straight outta Bavaria. Whatever. I’m always slightly embarrassed at football match times to be British, even though I couldn’t care less about the game.
Why? Almost all countries celebrate military victories, be they Independence Day in many countries, Cinqo de Mayo in Mexico, the Easter Uprising (though not technically a victory) in Ireland, the Orange Order with Battle of the Boyne etc. Why do you turn your nose up at the British celebrating its victory over the fascist regime of the Nazis, but not complain about any of the others?
Roger Inkpen
2 years ago
Plenty of other nations are far more obsessed with wars and battles, much of it from centuries ago. The booing from the England fans wasn’t enough to drown out the hearty singing about ‘Edward’s army’ when we met the Scots a couple of weeks ago.
As an Englishman I have to confess to singing along to Flower of Scotland when I was at Hampden for a Scotland match many years ago. The tabloids might have toned down the rhetoric, but there is something almost spiritual for football fans singing and chanting along with thousands of others, however absurd the words of the song. As long as they are not picking on individuals, I have no problem with that.
Chris Wheatley
2 years ago
One special time we beat them. Mostly afterwards they beat us. Therefore there is a particular rivalry between our teams!! But only on one side.
If your middle class sensitivities don’t like some boisterous songs sung while playing one of our greatest rivals, who lets face it have been a far better side than England for the last 50 years, then may I suggest you go back to a posh sport such as rugby with its polite applause of the opposition.
People who go to football like it the way it is, colourful language and offensive songs and all. It’s part of the game, for 90 minutes I’m allowed to be obnoxious for no reason other than basic tribalism, and the next day everybody goes back to how we were before.
Quite so – too many people want to tone-police everything into polite greyness.
With German family and many German friends, I can tell you German newspapers like Bild, have their own jingoism. Also whisper this, rather than a nation in decline my extensive German family, admire and respect the British, possibly more than any other European nation. Including our engineers, BMW bought Rover because it had a good rep in Germany, they could n’t understand why Brits wouldn’t buy them. I am constantly told by German friends, the mittle strand is doomed, because they aren’t innovating like the Brits, with their hi tech business.
Don’t project your disdain and extrapolate about Britain being rubbish because of our footie failures, Oh we just won 2-0.I’ll have to keep a low profile at home now.
It has come to some pass when those of us with German family and Irish people like me, with a British family, sigh when we hear such self flaggellation. In the main it appears to be a middle class trope, they feel the need to genuflect, which would be fine(ish!) if they did not simultaneously criticise those who do not agree with their assessment of the UK, especially England and it’s people. Give yourselves a break, this country is not perfect, which is, certainly not Germany or Ireland, and as I have said before I cannot emphasise enough to you how you need to stop pandering and flogging yourselves about external criticisms from Ireland and elsewhere, you do yourselves a disservice. I have lived in many countries, on three continents, and the UK, and the majority of, its people have a lot to be proud of.
Show me a country that *doesn’t* have a particular rivalry with another. In this world where ‘multiculturalism’ and ‘diversity’ are meant to be celebrated, the English deserve their own peculiarities of culture too, warts and all. We’re an island nation with a long and convoluted and peculiar history that has made us what we are. A few thugs don’t represent us any more than the intelligentsia do, and if the Germans don’t like the mickey being taken out of them, tough.
I suspect the Germans have far less of an issue with this than the current English “left”.
Most Germans I know have an excellent sense of humour …
Traditional rivals.
And a non traditional result. Nice one, England.
Oh, and by the way, like me lots of Australians barrack for England in soccer, as long as Australia is not playing (which is a lot). The cricket, however…
I think when Winston said those famous words “we shall never surrender” in relation to our perilous relationship with Germany at the time, and then we didn’t surrender- even though at times it seemed like a good idea- and then eventually, the Germans surrendered, well I think at that point Winston should have said words to the effect of “we don’t need to worry about never surrendering anymore”, because what’s happened is we’ve taken it literally regarding the Germans ever since, and transferred it to the football. It’s not dissimilar to those famously loyal Japanese soldiers, some of whom to this day, are still holding the line, in the South Pacific.
“Two world wars and one World Cup, do-dah, do-dah…”
That’s what always comes into my head when England play Germany. I guess we’re both showing our age!
If only we had surrendered or agreed a cease fire with Nazi Germany in 1940. We would certainly be wealthier now and much less people would have died aside from the 6 million+ Jews.
Importantly Ed West and the privileged, entitled middle class would not have to hear and read about the plebs slating the Germans around football matches (normally in jest).
Enjoy driving your BMW/ Audi/Mercedes/VW Ed… I’ll buy you a pawn sandwich if I ever I meet you.
Shame then about the entire nationalities – Poles, Czechs, Slovenes, Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians – condemned to extermination, enslavement, deportation or – if they were sufficiently Nordic, Germanisation, losing their countries and identities in the process.
For all the downsides of fighting the war to its very bitter end, we had to do it for the sake of the European race.
I’m sure Ed is right when he suggests an inverse correlation between the vigour and confidence of a nation and its obsession with events of long ago. Funny, as since then there has been much else for the UK to be proud of: the Beatles, Stones, Who, Zeppelin, Elton, Bowie, Hockney, Amis Kingsley and Martin, Christopher Hitchens, Dylan Thomas, and so much more. I guess football fans are as unaware of any of it as they seem unaware that the House of Windsor is also the House of Saxe Coburg-Gotha, straight outta Bavaria. Whatever. I’m always slightly embarrassed at football match times to be British, even though I couldn’t care less about the game.
Why? Almost all countries celebrate military victories, be they Independence Day in many countries, Cinqo de Mayo in Mexico, the Easter Uprising (though not technically a victory) in Ireland, the Orange Order with Battle of the Boyne etc. Why do you turn your nose up at the British celebrating its victory over the fascist regime of the Nazis, but not complain about any of the others?
Plenty of other nations are far more obsessed with wars and battles, much of it from centuries ago. The booing from the England fans wasn’t enough to drown out the hearty singing about ‘Edward’s army’ when we met the Scots a couple of weeks ago.
As an Englishman I have to confess to singing along to Flower of Scotland when I was at Hampden for a Scotland match many years ago. The tabloids might have toned down the rhetoric, but there is something almost spiritual for football fans singing and chanting along with thousands of others, however absurd the words of the song. As long as they are not picking on individuals, I have no problem with that.
One special time we beat them. Mostly afterwards they beat us. Therefore there is a particular rivalry between our teams!! But only on one side.