In The Revolt of the Public, former intelligence analyst Martin Gurri traces the roots of a âpolitics of negationâ that has engulfed Western societies, tied to a wholesale collapse of authority across all domains Ââ politics, journalism, finance, religion, science. He blames it on the internet. Authority has always been located in hierarchical structures of expertise, guarded by accreditation and long apprenticeship, whose members develop a âreflexive loathing of the amateur trespasserâ.
For authority to be really authoritative, it must claim an epistemic monopoly of some kind, whether of priestly or scientific knowledge. In the 20th century, especially after the spectacular successes of the Manhattan Project and the Apollo moon landing, there developed a spiral wherein the public came to expect miracles of technical expertise (flying cars and moon colonies were thought to be imminent). Reciprocally, stoking expectations of social utility is normalised in the processes of grant-seeking and institutional competition that are now inseparable from scientific practice.
The system was sustainable, if uneasily so, as long as inevitable failures could be kept offstage. This required robust gatekeeping, such that the assessment of institutional performance was an intra-elite affair (the blue-ribbon commission; peer review), allowing for the development of âinformal pacts of mutual protectionâ, as Gurri puts it. The internet, and the social media which disseminate instances of failure with relish, have made such gatekeeping impossible. That is the core of the very parsimonious and illuminating argument by which Gurri accounts for the revolt of the public.
In recent years, a replication crisis in science has swept aside a disturbing number of the findings once thought robust in many fields. This has included findings that lie at the foundation of whole research programs and scientific empires, now crumbled. The reasons for these failures are fascinating, and provide a glimpse into the human element of scientific practice.
Henry H. Bauer, chemistry professor and former dean of arts and sciences at Virginia Tech, published a paper in 2004 in which he undertook to describe how science is actually conducted in the 21st century: it is, he says, fundamentally corporate (in the sense of being collective). âIt remains to be appreciated that 21st-century science is a different kind of thing than the âmodern scienceâ of the 17th through 20th centuriesâŠ.â
Now, science is primarily organised around âknowledge monopoliesâ that exclude dissident views. They do so not as a matter of piecemeal failures of open-mindedness by individuals jealous of their turf, but systemically.
The all-important process of peer review depends on disinterestedness, as well as competence. âSince about the middle of the 20th century, however, the costs of research and the need for teams of cooperating specialists have made it increasingly difficult to find reviewers who are both directly knowledgeable and also disinterested; truly informed people are effectively either colleagues or competitors.â
Bauer writes that âjourneymen peer-reviewers tend to stifle rather than encourage creativity and genuine innovation. Centralized funding and centralized decision-making make science more bureaucratic and less an activity of independent, self-motivated truth-seekers.â In universities, âthe measure of scientific achievement becomes the amount of âresearch supportâ brought in, not the production of useful knowledgeâ. (University administrations skim a standard 50% off the top of any grant to cover the âindirect costsâ of supporting the research.)
Given the resources required to conduct big science, it needs to serve some institutional master, whether that be commercial or governmental. In the last 12 months we have seen the pharmaceutical industry and its underlying capacity for scientific accomplishment at its best. The development of mRNA vaccines represents a breakthrough of real consequence. This has occurred in commercial laboratories that were temporarily relieved of the need to impress financial markets or stoke consumer demand by large infusions of government support. This ought to give pause to the political reflex to demonise pharmaceutical companies that is prevalent on both the Left and the Right.
But it cannot be assumed that âthe bottom lineâ exerts a disciplining function on scientific research that automatically aligns it with the truth motive. Notoriously, pharmaceutical companies have, on a significant scale, paid physicians to praise, recommend and prescribe their products, and recruited researchers to put their names to articles ghost-written by the firms which are then placed in scientific and professional journals. Worse, the clinical trials whose results are relied upon by federal agencies in deciding whether to approve drugs as safe and effective are generally conducted or commissioned by the pharmaceutical companies themselves.
The bigness of big science â both the corporate form of the activity, and its need for large resources generated otherwise than by science itself â places science squarely in the world of extra-scientific concerns, then. Including those concerns taken up by political lobbies. If the concern has a high profile, any dissent from the official consensus may be hazardous to an investigatorâs career.
Public opinion polls generally indicate that what âeverybody knowsâ about some scientific matter, and its bearing on public interests, will be identical to the well-institutionalized view. This is unsurprising, given the role the media plays in creating consensus. Journalists, rarely competent to assess scientific statements critically, cooperate in propagating the pronouncements of self-protecting âresearch cartelsâ as science.
Bauerâs concept of a research cartel came into public awareness in an episode that occurred five years after his article appeared. In 2009, someone hacked the emails of the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia in Britain and released them, prompting the âclimategateâ scandal in which the scientists who sat atop the climate bureaucracy were revealed to be stonewalling against requests for their data from outsiders. This was at a time when many fields, in response to their own replication crises, were adopting data sharing as a norm in their research communities, as well as other practices such as reporting null findings and the pre-registration of hypotheses in shared forums.
The climate research cartel staked its authority on the peer review process of journals deemed legitimate, which meddling challengers had not undergone. But, as Gurri notes in his treatment of climategate, âsince the group largely controlled peer review for their field, and a consuming subject of the emails was how to keep dissenting voices out of the journals and the media, the claim rested on a circular logicâ.
One can be fully convinced of the reality and dire consequences of climate change while also permitting oneself some curiosity about the political pressures that bear on the science, I hope. Try to imagine the larger setting when the IPPC convenes. Powerful organisations are staffed up, with resolutions prepared, communications strategies in place, corporate âglobal partnersâ secured, interagency task forces standing by and diplomatic channels open, waiting to receive the good word from an empaneled group of scientists working in committee.
This is not a setting conducive to reservations, qualifications, or second thoughts. The function of the body is to produce a product: political legitimacy.
The third leg: moralism
The climategate scandal delivered a blow to the IPPC, and therefore to the networked centres of power for which it serves as science-settler. This perhaps led to a heightened receptivity in those centres for the arrival of a figure such as Greta Thunberg who escalates the moral urgency of the cause (âHow dare you!), giving it an impressive human face that can galvanise mass energy. She is notable both for being knowledgeable and for being a child, even younger and more fragile-looking than her age, and therefore an ideal victim-sage.
There appears to be a pattern, not limited to climate science-politics, in which the mass energy galvanised by celebrities (who always speak with certainty) strengthens the hand of activists to organise campaigns in which any research institution that fails to discipline a dissident investigator is said to be serving as a channel of âdisinformationâ. The institution is placed under a kind of moral receivership, to be lifted when the heads of the institution denounce the offending investigator and distance themselves from his or her findings. They then seek to repair the damage by affirming the ends of the activists in terms that out-do the affirmations of rival institutions.
As this iterates across different areas of establishment thinking, especially those that touch on ideological taboos, it follows a logic of escalation that restricts the types of inquiry that are acceptable for research supported by institutions, and shifts them in the direction dictated by political lobbies.
Needless to say, all this takes place far from the field of scientific argument, but the drama is presented as one of restoring scientific integrity. In the internet era of relatively open information flows, a cartel of expertise can be maintained only if it is part of a larger body of organised opinion and interests that, together, are able to run a sort of moral-epistemic protection racket. Reciprocally, political lobbies depend on scientific bodies that are willing to play their part.
This could be viewed as part of a larger shift within institutions from a culture of persuasion to one in which coercive moral decrees emanate from somewhere above, hard to locate precisely, but conveyed in the ethical style of HR. Weakened by the uncontrolled dissemination of information and attendant fracturing of authority, the institutions that ratify particular pictures of what is going on in the world must not merely assert a monopoly of knowledge, but place a moratorium on the asking of questions and noticing of patterns.
Research cartels mobilise the denunciatory energies of political activists to run interference and, reciprocally, the priorities of activist NGOs and foundations meter the flow of funding and political support to research bodies, in a circle of mutual support.
One of the most striking features of the present, for anyone alert to politics, is that we are increasingly governed through the device of panics that give every appearance of being contrived to generate acquiescence in a public that has grown skeptical of institutions built on claims of expertise. And this is happening across many domains. Policy challenges from outsiders presented through fact and argument, offering some picture of what is going on in the world that is rival to the prevailing one, are not answered in kind, but are met rather with denunciation. In this way, epistemic threats to institutional authority are resolved into moral conflicts between good people and bad people.
The ramped-up moral content of pronouncements that are ostensibly expert-technical needs to be explained. I suggested there are two rival sources of political legitimacy, science and popular opinion, that are imperfectly reconciled through a kind of distributed demagogy, which we may call scientism. This demagogy is distributed in the sense that interlocked centers of power rely on it to mutually prop one another up.
But as this arrangement has begun to totter, with popular opinion coming untethered from expert authority and newly assertive against it, a third leg has been added to the structure in an effort to stabilise it: the moral splendor of the Victim. To stand with the Victim, as every major institution now appears to do, is to arrest criticism. Such is the hope, at any rate.
In the unforgettable Summer of 2020, the moral energy of anti-racism was harnessed to the scientific authority of public health, and vice versa. Thus âwhite supremacyâ was a public health emergency â one urgent enough to dictate the suspension of social distancing mandates for the sake of protests. So how did the description of America as white supremacist get converted into a scientific-sounding claim?
Michael Lind has argued that covid laid bare a class war, not between labor and capital, but between two groups that could both be called âelitesâ: on one side, small business owners who opposed lockdowns and, on the other, professionals who enjoyed greater job security, were able to work from home, and typically took a maximalist position on hygiene politics. We can add that, being in the âknowledge economy,â professionals naturally show more deference to experts, since the basic currency of the knowledge economy is epistemic prestige.
This divide got mapped onto the pre-existing schism that had organised itself around President Trump, with the population sorted into good people and bad people. For professionals, not just the status of oneâs soul, but oneâs standing and viability in the institutional economy, depended on getting conspicuously on the right side of that divide. According to the Manichaean binary established in 2016, the fundamental question mark over oneâs head is that of the strength and sincerity of oneâs anti-racism. For white people who worked in technical bodies connected to public health, the confluence of the George Floyd protests and the pandemic seemed to have presented an opportunity to convert their moral precarity on the issue of race into its opposite: moral authority.
Over 1,200 health experts, speaking as health experts, signed an open letter encouraging mass protests as necessary to address the âpervasive lethal force of white supremacyâ. This pervasive force is something they are specially qualified to detect by their scientific knowledge. Editorials in journals such as The Lancet, The New England Journal of Medicine, Scientific American and even Nature now speak the language of Critical Race Theory, invoking the invisible miasma of âwhitenessâ as explanatory device, controlling variable and justification for whatever pandemic policy prescription it seems good to align themselves with.
The science is remarkably clear. It has also been bent to expansive purposes. In February 2021, the medical journal The Lancet convened a Commission on Public Policy and Health in the Trump Era to deplore the presidentâs politicisation of science â while urging âscience-led proposalsâ that would address public health through reparations for descendants of slaves and other victims of historical oppression, the enhancement of affirmative action, and the adoption of the Green New Deal, among other measures. One can certainly make a case for such policies sincerely, freely, and with due consideration. Many people have. But perhaps it is also the case that the moral sorting and resulting insecurity among technocratic professionals has made them quick to defer to activists and sign on to grander visions of a transformed society.
The spectacular success of âpublic healthâ in generating fearful acquiescence in the population during the pandemic has created a rush to take every technocratic-progressive project that would have poor chances if pursued democratically, and cast it as a response to some existential threat. In the first week of the Biden administration, the Senate majority leader urged the president to declare a âclimate emergencyâ and assume powers that would authorise him to sidestep Congress and rule by executive fiat. Ominously, we are being prepared for âclimate lockdownsâ.
The wisdom of the East
Western nations have long had contingency plans for dealing with pandemics, in which quarantine measures were delimited by liberal principles â respecting individual autonomy and avoiding coercion as much as possible. Thus, it was the already-infected and the especially vulnerable who should be isolated, as opposed to locking healthy people in their homes. China, on the other hand, is an authoritarian regime that solves collective problems through rigorous control of its population and pervasive surveillance. Accordingly, when the COVID pandemic began in earnest, China locked down all activities in Wuhan and other affected areas. In the West, it was simply assumed that such a course of action was not an available option.
As UK epidemiologist Neil Ferguson said to the Times last December: âItâs a communist one-party state, we said. We couldnât get away with [lockdowns] in Europe, we thought⊠and then Italy did it. And we realised we could.â He added that âThese days, lockdown feels inevitable.â
Thus, what had seemed impossible due to the bedrock principles of Western society now feels not merely possible but inevitable. And this complete inversion happened over the course of a few months.
Acceptance of such a bargain would seem to depend entirely on the gravity of the threat. There is surely some point of hazard beyond which liberal principles become an unaffordable luxury. Covid is indeed a very serious illness, with an infection fatality rate about ten times higher than that of the flu: roughly one percent of all those who are infected die. Also, however, unlike the flu this mortality rate is so skewed by age and other risk factors, varying by more than a thousand-fold from the very young to the very old, that the aggregate figure of one percent can be misleading. As of November 2020, the average age of those killed by Covid in Britain was 82.4 years old.
In July of 2020, 29 % of British citizens believed that â6-10 percent or higherâ of the population had already been killed by Covid. About 50% of those polled had a more realistic estimate of 1%. The actual figure was about one tenth of one percent. So the publicâs perception of the risk of dying of Covid was inflated by one to two orders of magnitude. This is highly significant.
Public opinion matters in the West far more than in China. Only if people are sufficiently scared will they give up basic liberties for the sake of security â this is the basic formula of Hobbesâs Leviathan. Stoking fear has long been an essential element of the business model of mass media, and this appears to be on a trajectory of integration with state functions in the West, in a tightening symbiosis. While the Chinese government resorts to external coercion, in the West coercion must come from inside; from a mental state in the individual. The state is nominally in the hands of people elected to serve as representatives of the people, so it cannot be an object of fear. Something else must be the source of fear, so the state may play the role of saving us. But playing this role requires that state power be directed by experts.
Early in 2020, public opinion accepted the necessity of a short-term suspension of basic liberties on the supposition that, once the emergency had passed, we could go back to being not-China. But this is to assume a robustness of liberal political culture that may not be warranted. Lord Sumption, a jurist and retired member of the UKâs Supreme Court, makes a case for regarding lockdowns in the West as the crossing of a line that is not likely to get uncrossed. In an interview with Freddie Sayers at UnHerd, he points out that, by law, the government has broad powers to act under emergency. âThere are many things governments can do, which it is generally accepted they should not do. And one of them, until last March, was to lock up healthy people in their homes.â
He makes the Burkean observation that our status as a free society rests, not on laws, but on convention, a âcollective instinctâ about what we ought to do, rooted in habits of thinking and feeling that develop slowly over decades and centuries. These are fragile. It is far easier to destroy a convention than to establish one. This suggests going back to being not-China may be quite difficult.
As Lord Sumption says, âWhen you depend for your basic freedoms on convention, rather than law, once the convention is broken, the spell is broken. Once you get to a position where it is unthinkable to lock people up, nationally, except when somebody thinks itâs a good idea, then frankly there is no longer any barrier at all. We have crossed that threshold. And governments do not forget these things. I think this is a model that will come to be accepted, if we are not very careful, as a way of dealing with all manner of collective problems.â In the US as in the UK, the government has immense powers. âThe only thing that protects us from the despotic use of that power is a convention that we have decided to discard.â
Clearly, an admiration for Chinese-style governance has been blossoming in what we call centrist opinion, in large part as a response to the populist upsets of the Trump and Brexit era. It is also clear that âScienceâ (as opposed to actual science) is playing an important role in this. Like other forms of demagogy, scientism presents stylised facts and a curated picture of reality. In doing so, it may generate fears strong enough to render democratic principles moot.
The pandemic is now in retreat and the vaccines are available to all who want them in most parts of the United States. But many people refuse to give up their masks, as though they had joined some new religious order. The wide deployment of fear as an instrument of state propaganda has had a disorienting effect, such that our perception of risk has come detached from reality.
We accept all manner of risks in the course of life, without thinking about it. To pick one out and make it an object of intense focus is to adopt a distorted outlook that has real costs, paid somewhere beyond the rim of oneâs tunnel vision. To see our away out of this â to place risks in their proper context â requires an affirmation of life, refocusing on all those worthwhile activities that elevate existence beyond the merely vegetative.
Losing face
Perhaps the pandemic has merely accelerated, and given official warrant to, our long slide toward atomisation. By the nakedness of our faces we encounter one another as individuals, and in doing so we experience fleeting moments of grace and trust. To hide our faces behind masks is to withdraw this invitation. This has to be politically significant.
Perhaps it is through such microscopic moments that we become aware of ourselves as a people, bound up in a shared fate. Thatâs what solidarity is. Solidarity, in turn, is the best bulwark against despotism, as Hannah Arendt noted in On The Origins of Totalitarianism. Withdrawal from such encounter now has the stamp of good citizenship, i.e., good hygiene. But what sort of regime are we to be citizens of?
âFollowing the scienceâ to minimise certain risks while ignoring others absolves us of exercising our own judgment, anchored in some sense of what makes life worthwhile. It also relieves us of the existential challenge of throwing ourselves into an uncertain world with hope and confidence. A society incapable of affirming life and accepting death will be populated by the walking dead, adherents of a cult of the demi-life who clamour for ever more guidance from experts.
It has been said, a people gets the government it deserves.
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SubscribeA brilliant article. Agreed with every word of it. Iâve become jaded at how many people around me are so quick to give up their freedoms in order to feel safe.
I’ve become jaded at the realisation of just how complaint and stupid people have shown themselves to be. I feel like a stranger in my own land.
FWIW I completely agree about being a stranger in one’s own land. I have largely hidden myself away during this disaster, being self-employed for the last few years helped that. But now I think I will struggle to get on with anyone who doesn’t think that we’re currently living in a totalitarian clown world. The people who willingly demean themselves and everybody else by strapping on their muzzles like an animal mystify and depress me in equal measure.
Same here. I am absolutely dismayed at the sheer stupidity of Joe public. It’s hard to fathom why so-called, “intelligent” people have fallen for this crud hook, line, and sinker.
Look, we voted for Brexit. Get over it.
If you remember back to October 2020, you said
Should intelligent people have believed that? Doubtless the 77th Brigade have used their orbital mind control lasers to prevent these prosecutions, which otherwise would have taken place?
I started studying the plague some time in January 2020. By February, I thought it best to stock up. In March, as it was beginning to take hold in New York, where I live, I read dire predictions of hospitals overflowing and forced to practice triage on people like me, and understood that I was on my own. (Indeed, some hospitals did go over capacity, but no one was put in the back alley that I know about.) I read whatever I could find that seemed semi-rational, and came to the conclusion that I would have to practice strict isolation for the duration. It did not seem like something anyone could fool with. I do know some people who fooled with it and got caught. Masks? Certainly, but you couldn’t buy one that wasn’t a fake for many months. So I made one of my own, with alternating layers of high-count cotton and silk. It was sort of black and pointy, so I painted big white teeth on it. The evidence that the plague was airborne convinced me, in spite of the CDC, and I stayed out of enclosed structures, especially those lacking vigorous ventilation, even though using a mask. I don’t see anything stupid, ignorant, or irrational about any of that. Maybe you all can explain. Don’t forget to account for survivors’ bias.
I openly defied all the lockdown rules – would not mask although I had to put up with huge amounts of disapproving radiating from the masked sheep (although they do not look you in the eye, but avoid eye contact, but you still feel it – much easier to mask, but I refuse to have my rights as a free man taken). During the actual lockdown my employee and I worked in public view all the time, no one said anything. Open defiance is vital to keep freedom! I am glad I was not in London or I would have racked up loads of tickets – but freedom must be paid for, it is NOT free in cost.
Thanks for sharing. Well done!
I thought the plague was rather like a war. I was born in 1939, and grew up in coastal New Jersey, so I actually have vague memories of the war and its numerous inconveniences and panics, and heard all the war stories later. Of course, we were not being bombed every day, so it was kind of an easy war for us, but still no gasoline, no tires, no butter, strict light discipline, young men going off and not coming back alive, and so on. One thing I did not observe was people denying that there was a war going on, and that something needed to be done about it. I suppose today one would see that, plus loud complaints that one’s freedom was being interfered with. It’s kind of interesting to contemplate the difference.
While I strongly suspect wearing a mask is vanishingly close to pointless, wearing one because a legitimate, democratic government has told me to is simply civilised. We all have the option of voting in a more reasonable one next time.
Except that the voting choice used to be Labour-big government & Conservative smaller. Now they are really just the same political party.
You can’t get much bigger govt than the Tories doing a lockdown. Only difference with Labour is that Labour want to spend even more. It’s more a comparison of massive govt or even more massive govt.
Who will be reasonable? Keir Starmer appears to be even more keen to lock down.Who can we vote for?
If theres no real choice then it’s up to us to make a new one. Nigel Farage didn’t just accept the status quo. You have to be prepared to act.
Rosa Parks.
As several responses below state, where do you find the ‘reasonable people’ to vote for? Surely not in Australia! The two main parties are barely different. Politics is such a sorry business that intelligent and decent people (and those ‘reasonable’) keep well away from it, or drop out soon.
I don’t think you should confuse compliance with pacifity. I get the feeling few people believe a word of it now- maybe at first but not so much now. I think they are waiting to see which way the wind blows.
I accept that and certainly hope you’re right. But some people seem to be perfectly content to wait for the rest of time until somebody tells them it’s ok to show their faces again and pass within arms length of somebody else. Until last year I didn’t know there would be so many of them around me. I have been shocked to discover how many there are.
You are quite right Lee. There is a deeply unpleasant level of completely unjustified superiority about many of the BTL commenters when they write about the views and behaviour of the people in this country. I note the same commenter referred to the electorate as “morons” earlier on this page.
Odd how the hoi polloi were so wonderfully enlightened when they voted for Brexit but not when they complied with curbs on their freedom during a pandemic.
Ironically this selfsame smug air of superiority is reflected in the behaviour and policies of the current government, which I suspect most BTL commenters voted for, so they have certainly got the “government they deserved”.
hoi polloi = the many.
Thus the hoi polloi = the the many.
QED.
I remember George making this point. Of course, technically you are correct but everyday usage has a way of working in to become correct.
âManners Makyth Manâ.
Surely, ‘maketh’.
Not in the âoriginalâ at New College or Winchester.
Last time I mentioned it in the modern/ your version but someone (a Wykehamist ?) objected!
OK. Point taken.
Why were you so rude?
That’s not an argument….?
Why are you so rude?
About the best article I have read on Unherd. More than a stranger in my own land, the feeling of isolation make it seems more like invasion of the body snatchers.
Many people I have spoken to do not necessarily believe in what they are being asked to do. They comply for an easy life and because they cannot see any harm in it.
I think you mean ‘stupid’ people being ‘compliant’ ?
But the real joke is that they gave up their freedoms so that others could be safe, and you couldn’t even realise that fact.
That is a poor argument since we never apply it to influenza and there can be many deaths from that. Common sense rather than government rules is normally sufficient, since people who are ill stay at home. Now people who have no symptoms of any illness are told to isolate and we have a mass vaccination programme of healthy people. Your argument assumes that we have a responsibility for the health and safety of other people. If this is the case, are we expected to advise every obese person about how to eat healthily, stop anybody smoking in the street, stop people drinking sugary drinks, or even stop them getting into cars because there is a risk of injury or death with every journey?
We don’t apply it to influenza, nor any of the other examples mentioned, but I don’t think the comparisons are fair. Influenza we have learned to live with over its long history, but during the Spanish Flu pandemic measures were taken that proscribed some civil liberties. The others (obesity, smoking) are more individually-based, and often involve personal choices the prohibiting of which would seem like more of a selective, and so discriminatory, ban on people’s freedoms. Incidentally smoking inside is banned because the freedom to be in a smoke-free environment trumps the wish of smokers to smoke indoors. This is now considered basic consideration, however much some libertarians bemoan it as another case lost to the nanny state.
A blanket ban on general freedoms because of a relatively unforeseen emergency is apparently easier to stomach because to those who accept it it feels like something nobody wants. In this case compliance doesn’t feel like an act of so-called depersonalisation (the Nepalese have been wearing masks in Kathmandu for a fair while and their sense of shared humanity seems very much intact, and deeper than what you’d find in London) instead it feels like an expression of solidarity.
The relinquishing of personal freedoms and the accompanying propaganda, if that’s not too strong a term (Michael Gove’s November essay) may make you queasy for all the reasons Crawford gives, but it must be understood that the main idea behind such a ‘surrendering’ is that extraordinary times demand extraordinary measures. Obviously the fears that emergencies, however overblown, may ‘make democratic principles moot’ are founded, and the careful, evidential construction of this argument over the course of the article is what makes it so good.
…so would these journalists be much better employed if they actually did some old-fashioned investigative journalism, and exposed the whole covid scam? If the media and medical profession did the job they were supposed to do, they couldn’t have gotten away with this scam.
“Covid scam” – ÂŁ120,000 dead in the UK (or thereabouts). Some scam.
And I’m not quite sure whose interests in the current UK government, this ‘scam’ is supposed to serve..
120,000 death certificates assigned to Covid to support the Project Fear. Cases in the “Waves” changed from presented at hospital with real symptoms to a positive result on a test and are plotted on the same graph…just shows how much the public data means….not a fat lot….including deaths.
Quite right.
Context and comparisons are all. 120k deaths assigned to Covid (within 28 days of +ve PCR test with or without Covid 19 signs or symptoms; alternatively simply attested to by nursing home staff or one physician) that occurred over 2 respiratory virus seasons set against c600k/annum all cause deaths.
Have you figured out how many deaths would be attributed to vaccines if the criteria were as loose and the incentives as insistent and/or lucrative?
They were afraid of being vicitimised and so lose their jobs – terribly sad state of affairs to put it mildly!
“Asymptomatic spread” as a significant means of spreading this virus has been thoroughly debunked. Viruses are spread by sick people with active symptoms. Hence the strong injunction we’ve always given to people with the flu to STAY HOME. Not, “Go out and about if you want, go to work, go to school, use the bus and train, go to bars, concerts, etc., but be sure to wear a mask.” Any doctor proposing that as a flu preventative measure in 2019 would have been laughed out of the room.
I am under no moral and certainly no legal obligation to go through life assuming that – even when I feel 100 percent fine – I may be carrying some dangerous virus that some unsuspecting person may catch unless I cover my nose and mouth everywhere.
To be devil’s advocate I do prefer not to be sneezed on by someone not obviously shown the ‘hankie technique’ and masks have prevented this. I do agree with your points though and also wonder why these ‘green’ charities don’t seem to mind all these discarded masks?
Obviously sneezing on someone is terrible manners, but (I think) a pretty rare occurance. And as we now know that
asymptomatic spread
is mostly a crock, unless that person who sneezed on you is actively ill it
s highly unlikely theyll infect you. I
ve actually always found it a bit peculiar that sneezing is interpreted as a sign of illness; it isnt (except a possible sign of allergies, which aren
t contagious), although excessive coughing is. Sneezing is just a way for the nasal passages to expel irritants, so actually something thats good for us. And anyway, even if a sneezer is wearing a mask, plenty of fluid gets expelled through the mask, which will still get on anyone close by if they don
t still cover their mouth with a hand or arm, or hankie.https://lockdownsceptics.org/risk-of-asymptomatic-spread-minimal-variants-over-hyped-masks-pointless-an-interview-with-professor-jay-bhattacharya/ You have science, not just ethics, on your side.
Smoking is routinely banned outside now, too.
I don’t care for it anywhere, but see no reason why it can’t be done indoors if I have a fair opportunity to not go in such places.
Similar thinking ought apply to masks. Even more so to vaccination, and more than that with experimental vaccines.
Er, vaccination programmes always involve healthy people. That’s the point.
No the usual flu vaccination is offered free only to the elderly and those with health problems and is usually administered at the doctors or chemists . Everyone else ie the healthy adults, pay and can get it from a variety of sources-sometimes the work place organizes them.
Alan says like it’s a bad thing:
Aren’t vaccines usually given to healthy people? I know some can sometimes be used therapeutically, but that’s much much less common.
So why don’t we ban all motorised transport so pedestrians can be safe ?
The answer is perspective and risk.
Theres the potential for everything to cause some sort of harm-the reason it is not usually exaggerated by the media or the medical profession is economic. It would therefore seem that there is an enormous commercial value to some (helped by the medical and scientific community ) to panic people about this particular virus. An obvious change has been the virtual end of cash as a means of exchange and the cards that we use can be easily tracked.People have also had their lives controlled and limited in ways unseen outside wartime, using a medical emergency as the reason.
Or, alternatively, there is good reason to worry about this particular disease because it is new, clearly quite dangerous, and we do not know enough to say exactly how dangerous it might be. If people can legitimately worry about fairly well understood and thoroughly tested vaccines, surely we can worry about new and deadly diseases?
Well thank goodness we have such trusty scientists as Professor Ferguson to lead us-three wrong predictions out of three isn’t bad is it? I was never very good at maths ,though neither it seems is he.
Interesting that all these experts and politicians who want us to ‘fear’ this new virus were brave enough to break their own rules and sanctions for various ( noble I am sure ) reasons.
According to you, how many people have died from COVID in the UK so far?
Back in spring 2020, Ferguson published some hurried models showing a possible maximum of 500000 dead if nobody did any prevention measure, and maybe 250000 under some more reasonable assumptions (if I remember rightly). Around the same time Sunetra Gupta published some other models with other assumptions, one of which suggested that the UK was close to herd immunity already. Ferguson seems to be rather closer to the mark, but I would not knock either – with what was known at the time both scenarios were possible. That was the point – showing the range of possible outcomes and what the risks might be. The decision was that just the risk that Ferguson might be right was enough to warrant countermeasures. You may not like that decision, but Ferguson was surely no more wrong than Gupta was.
I cannot begin to fathom out why you are condoning the absolute drivel put out by Ferguson. In any other profession, he would be fired immediately for such gross negligence and incompetence. He has crippled the economy, killed thousands of elderly people with absurd nursing home policies, and probably millions more from medical negligence, ie, cancelled vital appointments. I for one, cannot wait for these criminals to be tried in the Hague.
You really need to separate the fact-finding from the decision-making. Ferguson (just like Gupta) put out a scenario model with specified assumptions and simplified but technically correct calculations (no one has proved the contrary yet)). That is his job. He showed that 250000 deaths could be a plausible outcome, just like Gupta showed that a different set of possible assumptions would give many fewer deaths. Given the ignorance and the time constraints both were reasonable calculations – the situation was very uncertain. The government and their advisers evaluated the plausibility of the available scenarios, and considered the risks. – and Boris Johnson decided what to do about the economy, nursing homes, and all the rest.
It is up to the government to balance different considerations and decide what to do – and politicians are surely better at dealing with decision-making under stress and uncertainty than scientists are. Anyway it is their job. The Danish prime minister explicitly overruled her health advisers to introduce lockdown, and the Swedish prime minister decided to ignore Ferguson and let his health advisers decide for him. Both took responsibility for their actions. The Boris and his friends really ought to do the same,
You make it seem as though all the government had to do was choose between the two models and that they erred on the side of caution. My memory says that it was the media screaming that forced a decision against what our PM really wanted to do.
It was, indubitably, the government that took the decisions. I cannot speak to Boris Johnson’s decision processes. but what the government should do is to evaluate the available evidence, balance the consequences of different choices, decide, and take responsibility for the result. If the Johnson government chose to let itself be stampeded into what they believed was a wrong decision by excessive headlines, that is their problem. The solution is to get a better government, not to pressure the media (let alone the epidemiologists) to avoid publishing data that might put the government under pressure.
Also the government didn’t then decide its course and then advise the public-it ordered the public. Prof Ferguson said he wondered if it were possible to compel an entire nation to adhere to certain rules & apparently was delighted to find it was. Roll on totalitarianism-its for your own good, the experts have decided.
Perhaps Nuremberg would be better.
Does the Gymnasium still stand does anyone know?
Please read Ferguson/Imperialâs March 2020 report here and explain specifically what you think he got wrong:
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf
I believe they say or imply no one will have immunity. Totally wrong. Many, especially children, flick off Covid with non-specific immunity and still don’t make specific antibodies. For that reason, many professors say the assumption that spread would be exponential was totally wrong.
The paper assumed symptomatic people would be twice as contagious as asymptomatic. Turns out asymptomatic transmission is inconsequential, i.e., far less than half as powerful as from symptomatic people.
Well, for starters… “In total, in an unmitigated epidemic, we would predict approximately 510,000 deaths in GB and 2.2 million in the US, not accounting for the potential negative effects of health systems being overwhelmed on mortality.”
Unfortunately, this will never happen. Tony Blair is still ‘trotted out’ to give his opinion on many occasions even though the Chilcot report recognised that he was responsible for taking us into an agressive war, murder and conspiracy to murder.
The huge flaw in the Imperial College paper was the failure to extend the IFRs out to see the result âthat 70%-80% of his projected deaths were going to be those over 70. This proved to be the case. Immediately one knows this, one also knows that there will be huge double counting. In other words, though his projected deaths were approximately equal to the ‘normal’, i.e., sans Covid rate, that did NOT mean Covid was going to cause a doubling of the usual rate, nothing even close. Remember, all the people who died of anything were pretty much labeled Covid if they tested +ve.
…and during the “scamdemic” his dalliance with a colleague’s wife meant that his idea of “social distancing” was apparently about 4 inches.
That would be *negative* four inches.
Four inches apart? Were they like a couple of Catholic high school teens at their first mixed dance, under the watchful eye of several ruler-wielding nuns? Somehow I think not.
Rules for thee but not for me
.It was never about safety for these people; it was about power.
When you give governments more power, it
s like giving a toddler a toy that doesn
t belong to him. Don`t expect to get either back without a huge fight.Please read the Imperial/Ferguson report from March 2020 and explain to us what you think he got wrong:
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf
Lots of down votes but not a single person engaging with the substance of my comment. Sigh.
Luckily he caused more cows to be killed than people.
The trouble with that is it was a pleasing result for Blair who could punish the tory voters , the next ‘prediction’ was also finincially beneficial to a key labour supporter through the vaccine. I wouldn’t imagine many on the SAGE panel vote tory-so why does a 80-seat majority party accept their advice?
Because they know what they are talking about?
If the virus is so new etc how can they know what they are talking about? It is pure speculation and the country whose figures they were basing their advice on cannot really be trusted.
If you bother to look at the minutes from the Sage meetings (all available and free to view on line) you will see exactly what they based their decisions on – the references of the papers they used to assist them in their deliberations are all listed, you can read them for yourself.
Yes, Professor Ferguson who was obviously not frightened enough of this new virus to refrain from breaking the lockdown rules that resulted from his OWN RECOMMENDATIONS going out to hook up with his married mistress.
And I believe both households ( which contained children) were meant to be sheltering because they had the virus. Obviously she had something of vital importance to communicate which couldn’t safely be transmitted by phone!
It
s just like the Governor of California going out to eat at a fancy restaurant with a bunch of his cronies, unmasked and indoors, during lockdown when ordinary Californians were allowed to do neither. Or Pelosi getting a salon to open specially for her so she could get a haircut (also unmasked.) These elites really think they
re a law unto themselves. Rules are or the lowly serfs to follow. And they make the rules because they enjoy the power.Rich people obviously have better immune systems than us ordinary folk & so can be ‘brave’ and take these risks.They are just being kind and considerate to us really in denying us these things.
Did you miss the part where it was explained that the average age of death is greater than average life expectancy?
???
Average life expectancy at birth is different from life expectancy if Covid did not intervene. The relevant figure would be the number of years of life lost to Covid. For someone of 81 this is on average ten years. For someone of 50 itâs 37 years and for someone of 60 itâs 27 years. Many people in their 50âs and 60âs have lost decades of life to Covid. And the high average age of death rate in wave 1 was skewed by Care Home deaths.
Surely âCare Homeâ is just a euphemism for âDeparture Loungeâ?
Precisely. Many UnHerd commentators apparently refuse to comprehend that Years of Life Lost is the relevant statistic here.
Some people died in hospital from the virus who were admitted for something else. Old people with the virus were moved to nursing homes where they ‘removed’ some of the inhabitants. Many people have been making sure they don’t go near hospitals as they are afraid of them.
Yes, during peak waves of Covid infection, hospitals become full of Covid patients, and due to the infectiousness of the disease and limited staff it is very difficult to prevent the spread to other non-Covid patients.
The UK is very fortunate its hospitals were not forced to close their doors to new patients, as we are seeing today in India.
Hospitals became “full of Covid patients” during the first wave…really?
Then how did all those hospital staff find the time to make endless silly TikTok dance videos, scold anti-lockdown protesters, then (about a week later) stand outside and cheer on BLM protestors who were doing exactly the same thing?
And if any hospitals really were “full of Covid patients” at that time, it was likely as much due to the media scaremongering as anything else. Most of them would have recovered just as quickly (if not more so) if they’d just stayed home in their own beds.
Exactly-when I did nurse training if you had nothing to do , you cleaned equipment , sorted out the store-room and talked to patients with no relatives-no dancing was involved. Also Eva seemed to have missed the bit where I said patients without covid ie Major Tom came into hospital where they caught it. Bit rich expecting people to be grateful for a system that ‘makes’ you ill.
I’m sorry Kathleen, but logically what do you expect during a pandemic where the hospitals are full of Covid patients?
Is your solution not to admit Covid patients? (Unfortunately, this is effectively happening today in India, because several of their hospitals have been overwhelmed and have run out of oxygen.)
Admissions to ICUs, which only ever admit very unwell patients, reached unprecedented levels in the UK in winter 2020-21, 3x+ greater than the worse flu season in the past 40 odd years: https://www.ft.com/video/0cd6f9f9-664e-40f9-bad4-dde59d7c746c
Your are spreading misinformation, Kathy. The data do not support your opinions.
A person is only ever admitted to ICU if they are very unwell, and it is a fact that there were 3x+ more ICU patients over Christmas than during the worst winter flu season of the past 40 years (and that’s with substantial social distancing measures that were in place in the UK to slow transmission; contrast to places like India and Brazil). That is huge.
These are facts. Learn more for yourself here:
https://www.ft.com/video/0cd6f9f9-664e-40f9-bad4-dde59d7c746c
Did I just imagine I saw all those stupid videos…
Logically, what has a tiktok video got to do with the quantitative question of whether ICUs were at record capacity? Is your definition of healthcare overcapacity the point at which healthcare staff are physically incapacitated and incapable of using a social media platform? You are being completely irrational.
I expect health care workers to be doing the jobs they are paid to do during their working hours, not using social media. For anything, much less making stupid dance videos. If they have time to do this, obviously the hospitals were about as far from being “overwhelmed” as any hospitals could be.
How is being extremely busy at your job, to the point of having no time to use social media, “physically incapacitated?” I’ve known quite a lot of doctors and nurses; back in the day, that was just called a normal day’s work. Last time I checked, practicing medicine and nursing was hard. Some days are extremely hard. People don’t choose to go into these fields (or at least I assumed) because they want an easy job. They know that sometimes it’s going to be like hell on earth, and they’re going to be expected to still do their absolute best and not fall apart because that’s what they signed on for.
And no, I don’t consider them “heroes” just for doing the jobs they are paid very adequately to do. If they were volunteers they’d be heroes.
If they do their jobs as they’re expected to do, they have my respect, but that is all.
The baseline capacity nationally in the UK at the start of the first wave could have accomodated 327 extra patients in critical care (CC) beds and 97962 in General and Acute (G&A) beds. These numbers are far below the observed peak of Covid patient numbers of 3100 and 15700 in CC and G&A respectively that ocurred on April 12.
The largest restriction on CC resources were CC nurses with a spare capacity allowing for only an extra 642 patients, nationally.
The NHS adapted in March by converting G&A beds to CC beds, calling in retired staff + medical students to help (mainly on the G&A side), cancelling elective work and utilising Covid free private hospitals for non Covid emergencies, retraining theatre technicians as CC nurses + a bunch of other measures.
Hospitals at this time had to be physically reconfigured to separate proven Covid patients from those awaiting Covid test results and those who were known to be Covid free. This partly involved increasing the distance between beds to improve cross infection control (basic Florence Nightingale stuff) so total G&A bed numbers were reduced by about 20,000 with all these measures while the CC bed capacity increased from 4,100 to about 14,000 (not all fully staffed).
For the first wave new guidelines were issued allowing one CC nurse to look after 6 patients, with lesser minion assistance – patently dangerous given the usual 1 : 1 ratio. This guideline was adjusted again for the winter waves to read 1 : 3. Both in April 2020 and January 2021 CC units just about managed to squeak through with this nurse / patient staffing ratio – by 24 January 2021, 148% of beds were occupied relative to the number of available beds on the same day in January 2020 â almost 1.5 times the capacity of the same time last year (those figures from the Nuffield Trust).
The MSM knows bu**er all about how hospitals are managed and how they changed (continuously) during the last 18 months. The limiter, in truth was never bed numbers but enough suitably trained staff.
This is what happens when you run a lean and mean health care system.
For a very good account of the contortions the NHS had to go through see : Adapting hospital capacity to meet changing demands during the COVID-19 pandemic McCabe BMC Medicine October 2020
The big General Hospital I was in during the ‘exponential spread’ phase in 2020 was not full of Covid patients. It was not full of anybody. On a ward of 4 six bed bays I was the only patient for three days of my stay. There were two of us on the other two days in separate bays. At one point I had a walk around the deserted corridors, waiting areas and different units. Nobody. Felt like an episode of Dr Who. Thought Daleks might emerge from around the corner.
If you didn’t have Covid then you would have been in the portion of the hospital that they were trying to keep Covid free.
Depending on what sort of hospital you were in maybe a lot of the staff had been seconded to look after Covid patients in a different part of the hospital another hospital ?
It is almost funny, how desperately you are trying to spin it.
He was in an entire hosptial WING that was practically empty.
Nice anecdote. Here’s some empirical evidence from an authoritative source:
https://www.ft.com/video/0cd6f9f9-664e-40f9-bad4-dde59d7c746c
Theres been quite a lot of anecdotal evidence which agrees with you-other nursing staff , visiters , patients and people who live near hospitals. All of these people have been told they are wrong or even evil ‘don’t you know theres a pandemic’ and some have even lost their jobs. Odd because you usually don’t want to panic people-deadly strain of strawberry yogurt-don’t all rush to A & E.!
If a 50-to-55-year-old who has a serious comorbidity dies “with Covid” (and the overwhelming majority of so-called “Covid deaths” in this age group have been in this category, i.e. people who already have very serious health issues such as morbid obesity, cancer, emphysema, MS, diabetes, heart disease, etc.) how does it make sense to conclude that they lost at least three decades of their life, when their health was very poor to begin with? Was such a person really expected to live to 80-85, if it weren’t for the dread virus?
I don’t mean to sound callous, as every premature death is tragic. But it makes no sense to me.
You are incorrect that comorbidities materially reduce the substantial years of life lost to Covid.
See, eg, https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/files/17.10-29-Jun-20-Aron-Muellbauer-Giattino-Ritchie-Excess-Mortality-article.pdf
âWhile it is true that three-quarters of the excess deaths were of people aged 75 and above, and that the majority had one or more pre-existing medical conditions (co-morbidities), in practice, life expectancy is quite high. For example, at the age of 80, life expectancy is 9 years for males and 10 years for females. Co-morbidities add little to this, in his opinion, since four-fifths of this cohort has two or more co-morbidities, and 90 percent have one or more (there is of course variation around the average).â
The vast majority of people in their 50s and 60s who have died “with Covid” have had at least one comorbidity. This is still very much a disease of the elderly and/or immuno-compromised and/or medically frail. And even among the most vulnerable, it’s fatal in only about 6 percent of all cases.
I realize that premature deaths are always tragic. But the impact of this virus on the general population – and particularly the young and healthy population – is statisically insignificant. Those who catch it either don’t get sick at all or get a mild illness they quickly recover from. And “asymptomatic” spread is a crock. We’ve been subjected to nothing but fear porn for the past year. Now nearly all of the most vulnerable are vaccinated, and we’re still being told it’ll be months, possibly a year or more, before our lives get back to normal, if they ever do. We are sick of this. No “pandemic” has ever lasted this long.
“No ‘pandemic’ has ever lasted this long?”.
I suggest you brush up on your history before making completely incorrect statements like that.
For example, the Spanish Flu continued from 1918 to around 1921.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-09-08/covid-coronavirus-how-do-pandemics-end-and-how-will-this-one-end/12596954
All right-minded people want this to be over. Pretending that it’s no big deal, however, doesn’t help anyone. Just take a look at the situation with hospitals and oxygen in India today and be grateful we are not in their position.
The Spanish Flu PANDEMIC was over by early 1919. Obviously there were some more cases of it after that.
And anyway, in no way can that illness be compared to Covid-19. Spanish flu actually struck down young, healthy people, which is what made it such an anomaly.
You are yet again spreading misinformation, Kathy. The Spanish flu pandemic is generally considered to have lasted around two years, with material outbreaks lasting until 1921 as I said. See, e.g., https://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-second-wave-resurgence. By comparison, the SARS-Cov-2 virus achieved pandemic-level spread around Feb/March 2020, barely a year ago.
In any event, what is the relevance of your point that Spanish flu killed more people and impacted younger demographics? It does not change the fact that Covid-19 evidently poses a systemic threat to healthcare systems, as we have seen around the world over the past year, and are seeing most acutely today in India.
You are not making sense. If this disease is not a threat the the mjaority of the population (and it isn’t), why, then, is it seen as a “threat to healthcare systems”?
People like you talk like the wellbeing of “healthcare systems” is more important that the wellbeing of people. Healthcare systems are MEANT to take care of people, not to be “protected” from overt pressure to the point of hospitals being kept virtually empty. And yes, sometimes enormous strains are placed on these systems, eg. when catastrophic accidents or natural disasters occur. They are expected (by us, the taxpayers, who fund it) to deal with it, to the best of their ability.
Most people who get Covid-19 have no need to stay in hospital. Most don’t even need to see a doctor and recover in a few days even if they do nothing other than stay in bed.
Why do you think the death rates from Covid-19 are so much lower in Africa? Maybe because most people with it are treated on an outpatient basis, with known effective drug therapies (saw an interview the other day with a doctor in Zimbabwe, who routinely treats it with Ivermectin with much success), keeping the virus from spreading through hospitals and infecting the most vulnerable. In Africa, they can’t afford the luxury of fretting about hospitals being “overwhelmed”, when many communities have no hospitals to begin with, just outpatient clinics.
I also suspect, however, that the much lower rate of obesity and lower median age in Africa has something to do with it.
This has NEVER been all about death. In the UK it has been about the disease burden on the NHS that should really be concentrating on other stuff.
The ones who filled the hospitals. Best source of information for this are the ICNARC reports regularly updated :
“ICNARC report on COVID-19 in critical care: England, Wales and Northern Ireland 5 February 2021
90.3% admitted to these critical care beds did NOT have serious comorbidites” â another UnHinged fallacy out the window.
Presymptomatics = Asymptomatics and there is now plenty of evidence that transmission can occur 1 -2 days before symptoms appear. See “Analysis of SARS-CoV-2 Transmission in Different Settings, Brunei Chaw, November 2020” for one of the better studies looking at this.
It sounds like you are admitting that at least 90 percent of those who were hospitalized with Covid never needed to be there.
Most people who got – and get – Covid 19 would have fully recovered from it without any medical intervention whatsoever, because for people who are not elderly and have no co-morbidities, it is no more dangerous than the flu.
I do not know what the standard is in the UK, but in Canada we do not routinely hospitalize non-vulnerable patients with the flu, even if they are running fevers; we tell them to go home, stay in bed, keep warm, and drink plenty of liquids.Hospitalizing them is highly unlikely to help them recover faster and will just expose truly vulnerable people to the risk of catching what they have.
So a flu-like illness that most people recover from on their own should not threaten to overwhelm a competent health care system.
I don’t know how you managed the end of life covid cases but some of the stories have been truly shocking-parents not allowed to say goodbye to their dying child, grown men weeping for their families and given no comfort-and thats before we even get started on the nursing homes. Have those in the caring professions lost their minds?
The media was also so desperate to prove anyone could ‘get it & die of it’ that it published any cases of youngsters ( most of whom sadly already had problems like cancer) and even showed pics people who worked in NHS and were minority & had died and somehow linked this together with BLM protests. The whole media thing has been a frenzy-something like Huxley’s book The Devils of Loudon.
I never knew the term “psy-op” before this happened, and thought all conspiracy theorists were crackpots.
Now I increasingly feel like the Donald Sutherland character in Invasion of the Body Snatchers, right up to the end when they finally get to him too.
The average life expectancy of someone who has reached 82 is another 8-9 years. So no, Covid isn’t just killing people who were about to fall off the perch anyway.
So they have used up 90% of their fuel? Isnât that enough or is greed the paramount virtue ?
Whatever happened to âmoderation in all things â as the Ancient Hellenes maintained?
I see it’s easy to be blasĂ© about other people losing 8 or 9 years of life.
So the average life expectancy in Britain is now 90 or 91? That’s news to me.
When you calculate the average length of life, that includes people who die just after birth, while still in school, in late middle age, etc. All these live lives that are shorter than the average. To balance that out, other people have to live longer than the average. Those who make it till 82 have already evaded all those traps, and can expect to live well beyond the average length of life.
You do not work with numbers in your day job, do you?
A huge number of those who had made it to 82 had done so because their life spans had been artificially extended by modern medicine, including flu vaccines. This is not saying they should not have been around, obviously it is great their lives were extended, just that they most likely would not have been, without these things. Viruses are opportunitistic and the novel Covid virus took advantage of this large population of people with weak immunity. And the government and healthcare systems did the exact opposite of what they should have done to protect this population. Lockdowns, forced masking, and imprisoning the healthy did NOTHING to protect these people.
Exactly-both my parents came from large families of whom only 2 ( both women) made it to 90 and they were in poor health for years. The rest died in their seventies or younger. Most people live to 80ish if they are lucky but some groups ie Ashkenazi Jewish people live longer than usual which mean the overall figures are unbalanced-just as if one person earned ÂŁ10,000 & another 1 million doesn’t mean the average wage is 1/2 million.
No it isn’t the average age .As I commented below but its ‘waiting’ if a person earns ÂŁ10,000 and another 1 million this doesn’t make the average wage 1/2 million.Statistics are a funny old thing.
Wrong statistic to quote as the Actuaries (you know, those people who deal with death and destruction every day) made very clear way back in May / June they calculated that during this pandemic 80 â 89 year olds in the UK with 2 long term conditions could expect to live for another 5 years at least â provided they didnât get Covid. They are the toughies.
The average age of death argument is a red herring â this is the expected age of death AT BIRTH.
So letâs assume most of the UK C-19 casualties so far are predominantly the old, plus a few fat & black. Say 100K as a round figure
That leaves about 3.5 million âtoughiesâ (80+), so it is going to take sometime for C-19 to cull them all, unless it mutates into something like the Black Death or the Justinian Plague.
More chance of decent, full scale Nuclear War with China I would have thought.
Won’t cull any of them if they have all been vaccinated.
No signs of significant vaccine escape so far.
Then we have a problem as the the late HRH Prince Philip said so eloquently.
82.4 versus 81.1.
Statistically if you old, fat or black, you need to take care.
For the rest it should be âDives in Omniaâ,*
âRiches in Everythingâ
(*Thank you Porterhouse).
Why didn’t the government/press/anyone explain why Vitamin D is vital and that those with darker skins need to supplement their diets?
Cost probably, we donât want the NHS to be inundated with the demos clamouring for Vitamin D do we ?
The same is also true of why we donât routinely give an ECG to the over 50âs, twice year, as is required by the Civil Aviation Authority for Commercial pilots.
Mortality rate 0.98% for all those who contract it. Average age of death 82.2 years old. Exactly the same as any seasonal flu. Show me the dangerous disease?
Sounds like more chance of dying from a Verruca.
This has NEVER been all about the death stats. In the UK the real problem was how a creaking NHS was going to cope with the disease burden on top of all the other stuff it is supposed to be doing.
From a VA study in the US :
“Notably, compared with patients with influenza, patients with COVID-19 had 2 times the risk for pneumonia, 1.7 times the risk for respiratory failure, 19 times the risk for ARDS, and 3.5 times the risk for pneumothorax, underscoring the severity of COVID-19 respiratory illness relative to that of influenza.”
and
“The percentage of COVID-19 patients admitted to an ICU (36.5%) was more than twice that of influenza patients (17.6%); the percentage of COVID-19 patients who died while hospitalized (21.0%) was more than five times that of influenza patients (3.8%); and the duration of hospitalization was almost three times longer for COVID-19 patients (median 8.6 days; IQR = 3.9â18.6 days) than that for influenza patients (3.0 days; 1.8â6.5 days) (p<0.001 for all).”
And as anyone who has been in an ICU – this is no picnic for anyone.
I bought a 540 fitting medical oxygen regulator for $20 from E-bay, 2 cannula from Walmart at 10$ each, put my 80l O2 Welding Cylinder in the bedroom as soon as they showed the (I think fake) videos of Chinese collapsing in the streets in Jan 2020. (a 540 valve is what welding O2 tanks use)
By the way a full O2 cylinder, 80 L, is about $320 at my local welding supply, (in case you want home Oxygen for late night welding), with regulator and cannula under $400, and Is something I would think prudent to keep, it is not very expensive to swap every few years as the bottle is the most expensive part and the old bottle is credited against the new bottle – choose a cylinder with the most years left on its certificating stamp.
But then I have always been self reliant, like ‘Fish Antibiotics’ which I DO NOT RECOMEND (fish antibiotics are the same as human and vet ones, but require no prescription, but if you are remote extended times can be taken along in case your fish get sick) Clindamycin is for staff infections and things…. https://fishmoxfishflex.com/collections/clindamycin-fish-cin-fish-antibiotic/products/fish-aid-clindamycin-150-mg-100-count-fish-cin-equivalent.
Just like I always build my own house, fix my own vehicles, and so on, I like to take care of things myself.
Covid 19 is a multi-organ, endothelial thrombotic disease.
Unless you have the capability of measuring D-dimer, renal function, cardiac function, a smorgasboard of cytokines, coagulation in all it’s various flavours and a raft of other parameters you will be dead meat if you get really sick.
As for oxygen, what sort of oxygen support you would need (nasal canula, simple face mask, reservoir mask, nasal high flow O2 – up to 70L/minute, CPAP, venturi mask, variable positive airway pressure) would depend in part on your arterial blood gases – this involves sticking a needle into an artery to get the sample, not a vein. See the BMJ Respiratory failure and non-invasive respiratory support during the covid-19 pandemic: an update for re-deployed hospital doctors and primary care physiciansfor an easy to follow guide with pretty pictures.
Some patients can theoretically be managed at home with supplementary oxygen of one sort or another. Others can’t and that’s where the disease burden for hospitals comes from.
Antibiotics are absolutely contra indicated unless there is a proven secondary bacterial pneumonia – only diagnosable with repeated positive blood / sputum culture and for that you need a lab that can culture both anaerobic and anaerobic bacteria.
Good luck with all that.
Prednisolone in very large quantities proved efficacious in my case.
(Entire self-administered).
Yep, steroids appear to be useful if you give them at the right time – hugely unhelpful if you take them at the wrong time.
You were in luck !
What you just described is a worst-case-scenario case of Covid-19, i.e., what happens in the tiny minority of cases in which it kills or causes permanent damage because the patient was already highly compromised.
Your fear porn has passed its sell-by date.
Of the two of you, one seems to know what she’s talking about – and the other seems to be repeating conspiracy theories from the internet. You may not know which is which, but most people reading this will.
Nope.
The BMJ article and crib sheet covers all the bases from those who can be and have been managed just in a home setting up to those you are desperately trying to keep off a ventilator.
The thromboses problem can occur in anyone. We know that Sars Cov 2 can latch on to almost any part of the body because of the ubiquity of ACE2 and TMPRSS receptors and from clinical observation – everything from brain fog to gut ache to muscle pains to myocarditis.
Nasty complications CAN result from many different viruses. As any medical professional would know. Read up on what chicken pox could do to an adult unfortunate to catch it, pre-vaccine.
All I am interested in is how frequently they do.
The fact is, no matter how you spin is, the virus causing Covid-19 causes neither death nor long-term health issues in the vast majority of people who get it.
Its level of danger simply does not justify the extreme and destructive measures taken in the name of controlling it.
An apt metaphor is burning down a house to get rid of rats.
Do you have any figures showing how many admitted to hospital vs how many needing ICU?
Our World in Data have some nice linear and log graphs – you can select for country and the statistic you want to look at – they have a list of about 160 to choose from !
However, from Gov.uk looking at the
12 April 2020 peak – 21,687 Covid patients in hospital 3,036 in ICU
19 January 2021 peak – 38,838 Covid patients in hospital 3,947 in ICU
Critical care beds, however include more than just the really very ill in ICU.
Someone on Twitter abstracted the total critical care numbers Jan – Nov 2020 and did a lovely histogram of all this but I have lost the link. Looking at the image I copied:
April : aprox 4200 Covid + 800 non elective and non Covid + 100 elective and non Covid
Sept : aprox 200 Covid + 2000 non elective and non Covid + 300 elective and non Covid.
so … a moveable feast.
JUST WAIT!!!! Crypto is coming from all the central banks, and soon all will have a digital wallet on their phone using National digital Fiat money through the central banks, and your entire life will be an open book!
This is why Bitcoin and eythurium have trillion $ caps – people want their digital wallets not just to have the crypto Renmibi (Chinese) potentially costing the USA the Reserve currency (And that is very bad) but IMF Crypto SDR, Fed $ crypto, ECB Crypto, and so on, but it may also have Bitcoin/Ether to conduct annononmyious buying. Just imagine, everyone having a digital wallet with half a dozen crypto’s on it! The Banking industry will be toast, as will paypall, credit cards, the world upside down – in a decade. The world economy may shatter, and lockdown moved it forward decades, so will happen suddenly rather than gradually. May be really bad. Go to your local coin shop and buy some silver bars with your stimulus money.
Have you lost your marbles or have you just had lobotomia? Both lobes?
Idazbiro – I guess you are the sort of ignorant person with nothing to say so comes here to say it – I was responding to the bright poster Kathleen Car’s post
“Theres the potential for everything to cause some sort of harm-the reason it is not usually exaggerated by the media or the medical profession is economic. It would therefore seem that there is an enormous commercial value to some (helped by the medical and scientific community ) to panic people about this particular virus. An obvious change has been the virtual end of cash as a means of exchange and the cards that we use can be easily tracked.People have also had their lives controlled and limited in ways unseen outside wartime, using a medical emergency as the reason.”
Try to keep up, this whole shutting of the world is for control over money – look up blockchain, check out the Chinese digital currency, check out Bit-Coin, check out what is Banking and how it works, your ignorance is not reason informed people should not talk.
This is a pure conspiracy theory. SAGE etc trying to abolish cash?
There is a pandemic, every government in the world has taken measures against it, technology for the first time enabled us to replace face to face interactions, however imperfectly. That’s it.
Some big businesses have done very well, far more, who also by the way vigorously lobby governments, and, who knows even donate funds to the Conservative Party!) extremely badly e.g.the huge hospitality industry.
The Pandemic response is purely to for ever ‘reset’ the Globe, it has very little to do with the virus. Gates and Fauci have their finger prints all over the Wuhan Lab (a quick google will show) The virus was the ‘Excuse’ for the response, the response means utterly changing the whole world, to the detriment of all free people, and destruction of the Middle class, who are the only engine for democracy.
I suspect they hadn’t expected the vaccines to be rolled out so quickly, and that the original plan was to keep us in successive waves of “outbreaks” and lockdowns for years until all the fight had been beaten out of us.
The vaccines themselves present all kinds of other issues, not least being the way they are now aggressively promoted for people who don’t need them in the least (i.e. the young and healthy and people who have had and recovered from Covid) but I really have doubts they were part of the original plan, at least not this soon. Maybe they overestimated how “novel” this virus actually was. From what I can understand, it’s not a hell of a lot different from the one that caused the SARS outbreak in 2003. And coronoviruses themselves are nothing new.
Personally I hate small businesses that don’t accept cash, and avoid them. I’ve heard it argued that it’s not fair to expect employees in the service industry to handle cash all day because of Covid, but I say bollocks. How many cases have actually been traced to someone handling a dirty banknote or coin? It’s ridiculous. They can spray their hands with sanitiser after every transaction, if it makes them feel better.
Some very restrictive measures were taken to keep pedestrians safe in the early days of motorised transport. Have you forgotten the 4mph speed limit and the man with the red flag who had to proceed every vehicle?
Over time, we learnt how to manage the risk with a mixture of public awareness, infrastructure and regulation. Something similar is happening with Covid in a very short timescale.
Whilst I’m old I’m not old enough to personally remember it. I wonder how much of the change was simply because cars could go faster and rules were ignored. Is there a book about it?
Your general point about risk is completely valid; we talk too much as if there is such a thing as absolute safry. But there is a difference with infectious diseases. One road accident does not (except in a few cases) lead to another. Or falls off ladders, or drownings. Pandemics however do spread exponentially, without some measures, compulsory or voluntary, to inhibit the spread.
What? I couldn’t hear you through your face diaper
Who is stupid and arrogant?
Yes, many were willing to sacrifice liberties for others. But it was all based on a lie, and was imposed, not chosen.
Correct Terry.
I think that the real joke, as you put it, is that those that have given up their freedoms willingly did so out of fear and they still cannot admit to themselves that that is why they did it.
Yes. Fear of doing something to cause death and illness in others. Same reason we donât normally fire machine guns into crowds of people.
.?
They never will admit it – how can they? Their conceit of themselves as morally and intellectually superior would fall apart at the seams and they so love to feel superior.
Just stop Lee, you’re comments are embarrassing.
The real joke is they destroyed the West’s economy, the education of the youth, the freedoms of Man, the health of the public, millions of jobs, pensions, home ownership by lockdown – but you couldn’t even realize that fact!
Lee is probably a well pampered Public Sector Employee, possibly even in the sainted NHS, and thus complete inured from the tsunami of grief, despair and violence that will soon overwhelm the Western World.
Vae victis!
Got any facts/data to back up your claims, other than your concerns about MMT? Latest US growth figures and stock market donât support your claim. Fine, you may be right there is trouble down the road. But you undermine your argument with the hysterical claim that âthey destroyed the Westâs economyâ. It is just as possible that Western countries including the US will build back with a stronger social safety net, improving living standards. We shall see. In the meantime, a sense of balance wouldnât go amiss.
I don’t agree with Sanford’s scenario but I am expecting some sort of crash within what’s left of my lifetime. Mainly because of the insane stock market valuations of companies who when one of them fails after chomping its way through several billion pound funding rounds has roughly zero assets to pay creditors and all the vapor money evaporates.
The value of your investment may go down as well as up…
Almost as certainly as the earth will continue to orbit the sun, there will be another crash. Whether we’ll be alive to see it is anyone’s guess!
No need, however, to wish for it in order to prove one’s point that lockdowns or whatever were a bad idea.
No joke. Those who needed to be protected weren’t.
I remember being at a backwater Patti Smith concert and she read some (of her?) poems, and the one which stuck in my mind ended with the very memorable: ‘And the stupid Bi* ches didn’t even realize they were being F* ck ed Up The A* s!!!
If ever, a parable for us public in the covid times, I think that one fits.
I don’t believe most people who diligantly mask everywhere, even outdoors and far from others (and force their children to do so as well) really do it “for others”. They don’t really believe that, even if they have no symptoms and feel fine, they could be harbouring some of those dreaded Covid cooties and may pass them on to someone else if they don’t wear their face nappies. They are just irrationally afraid of catching the less than 1 percent fatality rate plague themselves. Framing their obsessive behaviour as altruistic makes it sound better than what it actually is.
The initial response to the virus in March of 2020 seemed reasonable given the many unknowns. What was not reasonable was the continuing shutdowns as we learned more about its spread and who was at risk. Now as the vaccine rolls out the continuing insistence by some to mask, keep businesses closed or limited, and other restrictions are out of touch with what science is showing.
But the authors point goes to the fear mongering and shaming that is used to get people to acquiesce to restrictions far beyond their usefulness and to press for other dubious social policies.
It is an abuse of science and the term ‘scientism’ is appropriate.
It sort of makes you think about ‘people’ really. But how do you do it without sounding cruel? Nietzsche started this when he said that only about 0.1% of people could think and the rest just followed. But after WW2 nobody quotes Nietzsche.
Good – he was a very negative force in the world! His Nihilism was a great tool of both the Marxists AND the Fascists. Once you can utterly disregard Morality you are open to unspeakable evil. “God is Dead’ he said, and so anything goes, and as you know, his influence on the great evil philosophies contributed to hundreds of millions of deaths in Russia, China, Cambodia, WWI and WWII, and still shake the West through Frankfurt School. F – Him and Sartre.
..why thank you Chris, I must be in that 0.1% because I’ve been trying to get people to see the truth since March last year. What amazes me is the push-back and resistance i get, from those who know absolutely nothing about it. They haven’t done an ounce of research,their knowledge is zero, but they claim I’m the fool. Stockholm syndrome I wonder?
My experience exactly; I have long since given up trying and so just nod and smile and go ‘mmm really, mmm, how awful.’ Stress levels have gone way down, very liberating really.
Nietzsche ended up in a âLoony Binâ didnât he?
..and how myopic. If nothing else, this virus pandemic hoax has exposed all those who didn’t pay attention in science and biology.
Rambling, every point qualified and circled around, thoughts put out for the listener to make into ideas, sort of like any legal folk taking where CYA is first, so the topic hinted at, examples given, vague trends… I wish these guys would just tell it as it is, 10 minutes of him just giving a lecture on the topic and how it went would be 10X better than this sort of ‘conversation’.
But Here is the answer in a nut shell, one he completely missed, as did Freddy, as it is so close to them they cannot even see it: Smart Phones.
Smart phones have rendered the entire populations into scared bunnies. From childhood everyone tracks and keeps with everyone, People terrified to be out of communication for a minute – phone clutching where it is carried in the hand at all times so a second out of touch is not had to be endured, no one thinks for themselves, every risk monitored, judged, discussed to death, every bad thing warned about, exaggerated, googled, fallowed, and feared, twisted.
Smart phones created a new human, one utterly not self reliant, always seeking consensus, asking friends/family, googling, MSM leading everyone around like pigs with a ring in their noses,telling you why to fear, how to fear, how much to fear, everything you should have fear about, and thus how to run and hide from the real world. Homofearusphonus.
I don’t often agree with you but on this one you are absolutely 100% right. It’s as if the life force has been taken away from people and all of their personal thoughts and experiences have gone.
It reminds me of the fake app which somebody was trying to sell. They said that there was a danger of falling over as you were walking along looking at your phone so there was this app which could pinpoint your position exactly and would project an image of the pavement (sidewalk) onto the screen so that you could see what was in front of you.
Oh bravo! quite so – not forgetting the all-day brainwash and wipe that is TV and radio with it’s ‘news’ 24x7x365 keeping the panic levels high.
If the environmental lobby was honestly motivated they would be campaigning for the banning of smartphones and social media given that in the next 10 years it is predicted that at electricity use by ICT could exceed 20% of the global total.
Fear is a strong motivator. The constant refrain from the press was the case count, then the death count. By inference many who hardly attend the news fully, believed the cases would all become deaths. And reputable scientists (most with a stake in pandemic research) demonised the Great Barrington Declaration as pushing people into death. Of course the Declaration did no such thing and was the way previous pandemics had been managed. But politicians and scientist joined hand to keep the public in fear. Treating us like children incapable of acting with caution. Climate change is another topic for the science-politics partnership is attempting to create the same fear. But it’s not really working with the public who cares about next week not 2050.
Fantastic essay. Well done UnHerd for giving authors like this a proper voice. This type of writing is why I am so pleased to have discovered UnHerd.
I like Unherd, but find so many of the ‘Conversations’ tame in that the experts are way too cautions (likely an academic trait, but fear of SJW too) and do not just say what they need to say, but qualify and lead the topic, and hint, and circle, less they say something which will be used against them.
I would like some more ranters, the sort who would stand on a box at Speakers Corner and shout at the crowd. Get David Icke, Piers Corbyn, get some fun guys. Get that crazy American running for London mayor, I would love some hing quality loons mixed with these tame academics.
That sounds really, really bad. Let’s not do that.
The problem is the conspiracy loons are the only ones who spot the disasters looming, but no one lets them get on the mainstream. The fact that for every loon who is correct there are several who are just crazy should not prevent us from getting exposure to such thinkers.
David Icke has been proven to be correct that a cabal of Lizards does indeed run the world, and he should be given the chance to tell us more.
Rose, the guy running for Mayor of London, (London Real) and David Icke (who says G5 is the problem and that covid-19 does not exist) were banned from youtube. Unherd needs to take up the ethical story….
Maybe there’s an ethical story there about free speech. However:
“The fact that for every loon who is correct there are several who are just crazy should not prevent us from getting exposure to such thinkers.”
I think quality of thought matters, and I spend time thinking about who to listen to. I don’t necessarily trust a third party to get it right, and if they promoted Icke I’d trust them even less.
I am stopped in my construction work due to the 400%, yes 400% increase in Lumber from a year ago, so sit here way too much. But I really like to hear the fringe, it does stimulate you by having to figure out the problems in their thinking. The Traditional Jewish way of education involves arguing, or strong discussion, as only by defending, or attacking some thought you may, or may not, believe in, do you see all the permutations and logic in why something is more likely true and false. The echo-chamber of ideas teaches little.
Unherd is not really ‘News’ or Journalism, it is discussion, so the wider the arena the better to me.
An excellent essay, that proves that Bertrand Russell was correct when he said: âMost people would rather die than think and most doâ.
Russell also thought that we should welcome Hitler if he invaded the UK.
Bertrand actually.
Good to see you’re paying attention.
Yes well spotted, thanks. 0-15
There seems to be a small gremlin lurking in the bowels of my mini I-pad who makes unauthorised remarks, which I fail to notice.
More haste less speed perhaps!
I think it’s ‘less haste, more speed’. đ
Apologies….a feeble joke!
A magnificent article and I also watched the interview with Freddie on YT last night. Every word, of course, is true. A malignant combination of the politicians, the media, the so-called scientists and various others are leading us towards a horrible, horrible future.
A huge proportion of the population is quite happy with this because they don’t really want or value freedom anyway, and much of the rest of the population is unable to see it. And when 29% of the population are so unintelligent and uninformed as to think that between 6 and 10% of the population has died of Covid, you know that there is no hope and that the power-creatures can do whatever they like.
People in this country plain flat do not understand stats, cannot visualise scale, and cannot assess risk, even at the simplest level. This includes our politicians: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19801666.amp
I don’t exactly know where the problem stems from, but I sure as hell can see why our governing class make so many poor quality decisions.
I agree with you that people do not understand stats but that also includes people who use stats to prove things in papers. If you read ‘False Positive’ by Theodore Dalrymple, the author follows articles in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine for one year. He picks on a series of influential papers where the authors have misused stats and proven a point which was just wrong. All of this in a journal which uses peer-reviewing heavily.
It is a common fault in UnHerd essays. An author picks a series of stats, produces a graph and proves what he knows the contributors of UnHerd will want to hear. Conveniently, he forgets to mention that there are other variables which count against his ‘proof’.
Understanding stats to the point where you make second order mistakes, or even attempt deliberate manipulation of what the numbers tell you, is fine. I’m complaining about the situation where most people look at a bunch of presented numbers with blank incomprehension. As Terry M has alluded, we need this taught in schools, from a young age in a way where kids are naturally comfortable with numbers.
When education reform is discussed, this is NEVER included as a suggestion. Instead we get gender and race studies that are false and divisive, but provide politicians with votes and phony moralism.
I’d be ever so grateful if you can suggest a country where people do understand stats, can visualise scale, etc. These things are not intuitive, and Kahneman and Tversky have shown that failure to understand these things is not only universal, but is frequently exhibited by university level teachers and researchers.
https://www.trendfollowing.com/daniel-kahneman/
I take your point, perhaps I’m being over harsh.
I agree with you but I am confused (in general, not with your contribution). To me, whatever the recent Covid issues, the thing which is leading us to disaster faster than anything else is the rush to decarbonise. Nobody seems to care about it.
So a future of limited land travel, presumably no caravans (good to me but some actually like caravans), perhaps reduced or no flying, limited imports, winter days huddled around a cosy heat pump, growing our own vegetables in the garden, a few chickens in the kitchen, getting together at night for a singsong. What does this remind me of? Oh, yes – the PAST.
If I remember, there was one group of scientists who believed in Anthropomorphic Global Warming and another group who didn’t. The government said, ‘Stop!!’. So now there is no argument or discussion allowed, and people like me have become ‘Deniers’ (to be translated as Go And Find Another Planet). But even in all of this environmentalism, who is doing anything about plastic?
This is where scientists are actually needed – but it is not sexy and no money is available. As I say below, science today has come to mean ‘Social Science’ – something which I do not recognise as science at all. But who am I?
Stonkingly good piece. I had a similar upbringing since my dad designed the blades of aeroplane engines. Kitchen table physics and critical thinking was very much part of it.
Iâve been horrified in my sector too, that emotions trump everything else, anecdote is rebranded as lived experience so cannot be challenged, and the intertwining of mind and body has been repeatedly refuted by a particularly interested lobby, when discussing long covid.
Wonderful piece that says it all.
Could you expand on that? I do not know what you mean, and it sounds interesting.
Long covid looks to be a variety of different post viral illnesses. Some of it autoimmune, some a prolonged clearing of residual virus. It can include ME/CFS symptoms, (PEM) but lung problems and anxiety is a regularly reported symptom, along with brain fog etc. ME/CFS patients have often been told that their illness is entirely psychological, and they have long battled for research to show a biomedical origin for their illness. Thus they reject any notion of there being a psychological component to long covid.
Iâm a musculoskeletal physio, and we have been long taught to consider psychosocial stressors in patientsâ lives which may be a barrier to their recovery. We treat holistically, since a patient with a disc problem will recover differently if, for example, they are a new mother and lifting a baby, or a single office worker. This does not belittle the legitimacy of the physical complaint, but allows us to plan treatment and advise according to a patientâs needs, not their diagnosis.
Thus the clash. ME/CFS sufferers feel an affinity with long covid sufferers (some of whom may go on to develop ME, but certainly not all) and reject any notion of holistic treatment, since many were given CBT / GET and nothing else, and told everything was in their head.
But there are lots of different types of long covid, so we need to be open to everything that may adversely affect it, and on the other side, what can help recovery.
Thanks.
Just interested to know whether you heard Dr Pierre Kory saying to Dr Mobeen Syed (“Drbeen Medical Lectures” on YouTube) that he’s found Ivermectin helps some patients with long covid? (Video from 26 Feb).
Itâs fascinating stuff. Plus the vaccine relieving symptoms in others. Often the worst sufferers are those who had the mildest disease. Some fully recover, then get hit six months later. More seem to have a week or so feeling better after the illness, then get sick again.
so the latest research being done by petrino lab, suggesting that there may be up to 10 different syndromes, seems ever more likely.
Fabulous.
Pushing climate and Covid issues to one side, I have called myself a scientist for the last 45 years – working in the field of new materials. It became obvious to me in about 1995 that science was not about proofs and counter proofs, or right and wrong – but about money. If you went to a conference about a certain issue one guy would say that Process A was the answer. A year later another conference about a completely different thing would bring the same guy promoting Process A. Of course, his company was marketing Process A. It was usually rubbish.
About this time all of the useful and meaningful science came from China. 95% of the useful research was in China. Today, that is still the case. Of course, they don’t follow all of the rules of the west and some of their trials would not be ‘ethical’ in our world.
USA still leads the science. The Chinese just refine it.
The US leads the science of warfare. No others.
âWar is the father of all thingsâ.*
(*Heraclitus)