I think that it is most unjust to blame the monkey, as it was that blasted Alsatian dog that started it. Another good reason to hate Alsatian dogs.
Also, it is indeed a great pity that Ataturk won the battle of Sakarya River, as it would be of great benefit to the world if modern Turkey didn’t exist.
They are some of the best dogs I’ve had. Perhaps if you don’t have the capacity to properly train an intelligent and active dog it is likely to be a source of problems.
There is plenty of time for that benefit to be achieved and will be reflected to and for the entire world. Such a perspective will lift to the highest ever seen cultural value of the area which is being deprived year after year. The problem is always with those who plan and although they claim strategy, the results are short-sighted and then the long-awaited fair actions hopefully bring far more greater advantages.
Don‘t blame the poor German Shepherd. They are such a wonderful breed and perfect police and military dogs: fearless and loyal. They need to be properly trained.
I’ve no opinion on your comment but you are correct to refer to the dog as Alsatian. During and after WW! the anti-German sentiment meant that anything with a German reference was renamed. German shepherd became Alsatian. Battenburg became Mountbatten. The German royal family became British :o)
I think that’s a very simplistic view – as Churchill’s was a very short term view. Haven’t you learnt anything from Ulster’s troubles?
Modern Turkey exists because most of its citizens want it to exist, not just because of the outcome of one battle. If Greece had won the battle, it would have faced years of rebellion from people who saw themselves as Turkish and resented being under Greek rule. Ataturk blew on glowing embers. A Greek state in Asia Minor was only ever a grandiose dream of unrealistic Greek patriots.
The only possible long term different outcome might have been a larger Armenian state and a Kurdish state but both of them would have required a level of statesmanship and altruism from a victorious Greece that nothing in modern Greece’s history makes likely.
Certainly it would have been better had an independent Kurdistan and Armenia come about. It seems that Prince Andrew embodied a trait prized by the people of Glucksberg, “Nordsee Aussicht”. Some dismiss it as pervasive pessimism, but correctly used it means it means making a worst case analysis in matters of dubious outcome. A touch of that was not a bad thing to pass along.
Last edited 3 years ago by Liz Walsh
Jim le Messurier
3 years ago
Top article, revealing the mother of balkan intrigues. Superbly written, if I may say so.
What a splendid, pithy account of the tribulations suffered by Greece at the hands of the so called Allies during the Great War.Thank you Mr Roussinos.
The unprovoked attack on ‘neutral’ Athens in December 1916 that you speak of, was primarily a French affair. Astonishingly Admiral du Fournet had the Battleship Mirabeau shell the city, most of the rounds landing close to the recently completed Olympic Stadium. Built in 1896 due to the inspiration of another Frenchman, it was meant to symbolise the rebirth of the Classical World, a rather hopeless enterprise as it turned out, and even Admiral du Fournet was subsequently sacked for not completely destroying the city!
It also recalls the barbarism of 1687 when a besieging Venetian army commanded by a German lunatic, one, Otto Wilhelm Konigsmarck lobbed a mortar bomb into the Parthenon, virtually blowing it to bits. It had stood virtually intact for two thousand two hundred years, bar for some minor desecration when it had been turned into a church.
Lord Elgin later retrieved the pieces, which ultimately ended up in the British Museum.
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Very interesting. A lot of history there that I didn’t know. As for the Queen’s Consort he was born in Greece, given a Greek name, and his father was commanding Greek troops at the time of this birth, so ‘Phil the Greek’ remains good enough for me.
Far too simplistic. He had no Greek blood, was a Dane/German by birth, and was only part of that Danish family that was imposed as a Royal Family on Greece. Where you are born is completely irrelevant, ask all those Middle-Eastern middle class mothers who give birth on the free NHS before returning home…. Phillip had to leave Greece only a few months after his birth, and settled in Paris…..”Phil the Great Dane” works for me.
A fascinating history of the area and time. Completely new to me. Thank you.
Andre Lower
3 years ago
Great article, and a far cry from the banality of some recent ones I saw here. Proof that Unherd can be worth our time, provided it favours its best writers/true journalists over the identity politic ideologues of late…
Last edited 3 years ago by Andre Lower
Charles Stanhope
3 years ago
For anyone interested, a ‘sister ship’ of H.M.S Calypso, is moored in Belfast harbour. She is H.M.S. Caroline, launched in 1914, fought at Jutland in 1916, and still in excellent condition.
Now that Lockdown is easing perhaps a visit is in order. For ‘after dark’ entertainment one could also take in a bit of traditional rioting on the Shankill Road.
Sorry, I don’t want to be petty, but this house’s name is Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. But thank you for this informative piece about a rather neglected part of European history!
On behalf of lunatics, I ask that you retract that slur
cjhartnett1
3 years ago
This is a really interesting, fully developed and lucid piece of writing that rewards close reading . Makes a complex,( Byzantine?) narrative both entertaining and compelling as you read along.
Top teaching sir, thank you.
Rob Mort
3 years ago
Great piece thanks mate..beautiful and succinct. Rob
mac mahmood
3 years ago
Reminds you of what Daniel O’Connell said about Wellington: “just because you are born in a stable does not make you a horse”. Phil the Greek was from Greece, but he was not of Greece.
To be honest, he should have been called “Phil the Great Dane” – much more impressive !
Julia Waugh
3 years ago
Wonderful article; historically informative on a subject made fascinating by an engaging writing style Aris Roussinos wields to impressive effect.
Ferrusian Gambit
3 years ago
Interesting to reflect what would have happened if Greece had accepted the offer of Cyprus during WW1 from Britain for entry into the war. It seems likely the Turkish population would have been exchanged after the war and Northern Cyprus and the conflict that exists there would probably never have happened.
advocatessa
3 years ago
It would help to know if Prince Andrew really was correct to refuse the order. Would his troops have made a difference or been slaughtered?
Except that he was not ex-Greek. He never was Greek!
Stephanie Surface
3 years ago
Very interesting historical article. The only problem is that you misspelt Prince Philip’s German/Danish name. It is Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. The German family still own the Glücksburg castle in the most Northern Part of Germany.
Maurice Austin
3 years ago
“King Alexander’s septic leg, like the rest of the Greek royal family, possessed not a drop of Hellenic blood” Here is where I must interpose a gentle correction. It was indeed against the wishes of his family and without the permission of the Church, but King Alexander had secretly married a Greek citizen with tons of Greek blood before he died. Aspasia Manos, descendant of quite prominent and influential Greek families within the Ottoman Empire going back centuries, married the King secretly, and was four months pregnant at the time of the monkey-bite. As things settled down in Greece after Alexander’s death, she slowly climbed from being “Madame Manos”, the mother of a princess, to being recognised as a princess herself. Their daughter (Alexandra) eventually married King Peter II of Yugoslavia, and the son of that marriage is the current pretender to the throne of Serbia, another Alexander. So Princess Alexandra (she only died in 1993) was indeed a member of the “rest of the Greek royal family”, and had more than just a drop of Hellenic blood in her veins.
Philip Clayton
3 years ago
I found this article fascinating. But I would love to know how despite all the tribulations of his family and his early life it is clear that none of the family were ever poor. In the same way that despite the French revolution descendants of the monarchy never seem to be found sweeping the streets or even forced to work for a living.How do these people manage to hang on to their status and wealth as they clearly do?
Readers may not know that two other celebrated characters had gripping escapes from the Turkish destruction of Smyrna at that time – one was Aristotle Onassis (who lived a few doors from my grandfather’s family home) and the other was the future designer of the Mini and Morris Minor, Alec Issigonis. Smyrna was known as the most cosmopolitan city in the Mediterranean, with long established British, French and Italian communities.
Last edited 3 years ago by Alexei A
Paul Marks
3 years ago
Prince Philip also visited the Greek Orthodox monasteries – indeed he privately stayed in them for periods of time. He may have been more Greek than he said – at least in his attraction to Greek Orthodoxy.
James Major
3 years ago
I may have missed something, but Alexander was Philip’s cousin, not his uncle, surely? Alexander was the son of Constantine, Philip’s uncle.
Kelvin Rees
3 years ago
‘Boys Own’ adventure.
mohsinallarakhia
3 years ago
This was a succinct and very interesting account, thank you. One special thing I did appreciate about this article was that the author did not aim to whitewash any of the participants in the grisly battles between the Greeks and the Turks, which ultimately led to the establishment of modern Turkey.
Dave Snell
3 years ago
Regnal name not regal
Roger Inkpen
3 years ago
Interesting piece. But I’m not sure why the absence of Prince Philip should mean we’d not get Charles or his sons. Admittedly in 1947 it would be tricky finding another European royal for Princess Elizabeth to marry, but surely not impossible?
Great article. A period of history i know little about but brought to life through one person’s family history.
Dougie Undersub
3 years ago
A fascinating article.
David Menashy
3 years ago
Really interesting and illuminating. Thanks!
LCarey Rowland
3 years ago
Thanks for your informative historical report. I suppose that any future counsel to the Royals would include the admonition: Beware of Greeks bearing sons.
Although, to be fair, Prince Philip’s allegiance to his Windsor wife has proven to be quite admirable, and even inspirational in its selflessly steadfast constancy.
Jos Haynes
3 years ago
An excellent pithy account by an author who usually annoys more than he informs. BTW, Mr Roussinos, you refer to your great grandfather and great grandmother as if you only had one – but you had four of both. Where did the others come from?
I just don’t like people picking out the particular ancesters that suit their purpose. Family history nuts are very good at this – all their inconsequential, humdrum ancestors never get a mention
Terry Needham
3 years ago
” How many are aware, for example, that if Ataturk had lost the 1921 Battle of the Sakarya River, outside Ankara, not only would modern Turkey not exist, but neither would Princes Charles, William and Harry? “ I am a sucker for a bit of alternative history, but I take consolation from the thought that the alternative future might have panned out worse than the real one.
Alan Thorpe
3 years ago
Phil the Greek was never Phil Mountbatten either, but he wanted to force the name on the Royal Family. It was just the Mountbatten’s doing social climbing.
Why read it and then display your couldnt give a toss post? Why not move on to another topic? I suppose a decent history lesson is casting pearls amongst swine to Ray – eh Ray?
Your comment says more about you than the article. Personally, I felt wiser after reading it, interested in the many echoes down the years, and saddened, because much as the Turks have things to be proud about, Asia Minor was truly Greece, perhaps the most influential culture which ever existed.
I still find it remarkable that the Greeks retained a sense of nationality after decades of subjugation under the Turks, which separated them so much from their cultural heirs in Europe.
A very interesting and scholarly article. Kudos to the author.
Excellent historical narrative and very easy to read. Thankyou.
‘very easy to read.’
And that is the real skill. Excellent piece.
I think that it is most unjust to blame the monkey, as it was that blasted Alsatian dog that started it. Another good reason to hate Alsatian dogs.
Also, it is indeed a great pity that Ataturk won the battle of Sakarya River, as it would be of great benefit to the world if modern Turkey didn’t exist.
They are some of the best dogs I’ve had. Perhaps if you don’t have the capacity to properly train an intelligent and active dog it is likely to be a source of problems.
A German started it all. A German shepherd.
There is plenty of time for that benefit to be achieved and will be reflected to and for the entire world. Such a perspective will lift to the highest ever seen cultural value of the area which is being deprived year after year. The problem is always with those who plan and although they claim strategy, the results are short-sighted and then the long-awaited fair actions hopefully bring far more greater advantages.
Bot alert.
or at least written in another language and put through an online translator then posted with no edit
Don‘t blame the poor German Shepherd. They are such a wonderful breed and perfect police and military dogs: fearless and loyal. They need to be properly trained.
Agreed. We’ve had two, plus a Great Dane, in the past, and all were loyal, friendly and laid-back dogs. Very intelligent too.
I’ve no opinion on your comment but you are correct to refer to the dog as Alsatian. During and after WW! the anti-German sentiment meant that anything with a German reference was renamed. German shepherd became Alsatian. Battenburg became Mountbatten. The German royal family became British :o)
My comments on this topic have disappeared!
Yes it is the new system since the demise of Disqus.
Delayed censorship would be the best description.
I think that’s a very simplistic view – as Churchill’s was a very short term view. Haven’t you learnt anything from Ulster’s troubles?
Modern Turkey exists because most of its citizens want it to exist, not just because of the outcome of one battle. If Greece had won the battle, it would have faced years of rebellion from people who saw themselves as Turkish and resented being under Greek rule. Ataturk blew on glowing embers. A Greek state in Asia Minor was only ever a grandiose dream of unrealistic Greek patriots.
The only possible long term different outcome might have been a larger Armenian state and a Kurdish state but both of them would have required a level of statesmanship and altruism from a victorious Greece that nothing in modern Greece’s history makes likely.
Certainly it would have been better had an independent Kurdistan and Armenia come about. It seems that Prince Andrew embodied a trait prized by the people of Glucksberg, “Nordsee Aussicht”. Some dismiss it as pervasive pessimism, but correctly used it means it means making a worst case analysis in matters of dubious outcome. A touch of that was not a bad thing to pass along.
Top article, revealing the mother of balkan intrigues. Superbly written, if I may say so.
Agreed, superb article, many thanks to the author.
An excellent article, capturing both the historical driving forces and the arbitrary chances of history which affect events
Well said.
What a splendid, pithy account of the tribulations suffered by Greece at the hands of the so called Allies during the Great War.Thank you Mr Roussinos.
The unprovoked attack on ‘neutral’ Athens in December 1916 that you speak of, was primarily a French affair. Astonishingly Admiral du Fournet had the Battleship Mirabeau shell the city, most of the rounds landing close to the recently completed Olympic Stadium. Built in 1896 due to the inspiration of another Frenchman, it was meant to symbolise the rebirth of the Classical World, a rather hopeless enterprise as it turned out, and even Admiral du Fournet was subsequently sacked for not completely destroying the city!
It also recalls the barbarism of 1687 when a besieging Venetian army commanded by a German lunatic, one, Otto Wilhelm Konigsmarck lobbed a mortar bomb into the Parthenon, virtually blowing it to bits. It had stood virtually intact for two thousand two hundred years, bar for some minor desecration when it had been turned into a church.
Lord Elgin later retrieved the pieces, which ultimately ended up in the British Museum.
Very interesting. A lot of history there that I didn’t know. As for the Queen’s Consort he was born in Greece, given a Greek name, and his father was commanding Greek troops at the time of this birth, so ‘Phil the Greek’ remains good enough for me.
Does anyone know if he had an opinion on souvlaki?
I’d never heard of souvlaki until I went on holiday to Greece a couple of years ago. I’m now in favour of it.
Far too simplistic. He had no Greek blood, was a Dane/German by birth, and was only part of that Danish family that was imposed as a Royal Family on Greece. Where you are born is completely irrelevant, ask all those Middle-Eastern middle class mothers who give birth on the free NHS before returning home…. Phillip had to leave Greece only a few months after his birth, and settled in Paris…..”Phil the Great Dane” works for me.
Or perhaps “Phil the hun.”?
A fascinating history of the area and time. Completely new to me. Thank you.
Great article, and a far cry from the banality of some recent ones I saw here. Proof that Unherd can be worth our time, provided it favours its best writers/true journalists over the identity politic ideologues of late…
For anyone interested, a ‘sister ship’ of H.M.S Calypso, is moored in Belfast harbour. She is H.M.S. Caroline, launched in 1914, fought at Jutland in 1916, and still in excellent condition.
Now that Lockdown is easing perhaps a visit is in order. For ‘after dark’ entertainment one could also take in a bit of traditional rioting on the Shankill Road.
Not so much traditional as recreational I think.
Sorry, I don’t want to be petty, but this house’s name is Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. But thank you for this informative piece about a rather neglected part of European history!
How wonderfully guttural, particularly that last ‘Glucksburg’.
Like something from Balzac or Voltaire.
Yes, sort of a tongue twister. I’m used to it 😉
“variously described as either a socialist or a lunatic ”
The terms are surely synonymous?
A causal link, I would have said…
On behalf of lunatics, I ask that you retract that slur
This is a really interesting, fully developed and lucid piece of writing that rewards close reading . Makes a complex,( Byzantine?) narrative both entertaining and compelling as you read along.
Top teaching sir, thank you.
Great piece thanks mate..beautiful and succinct. Rob
Reminds you of what Daniel O’Connell said about Wellington: “just because you are born in a stable does not make you a horse”. Phil the Greek was from Greece, but he was not of Greece.
To be honest, he should have been called “Phil the Great Dane” – much more impressive !
Wonderful article; historically informative on a subject made fascinating by an engaging writing style Aris Roussinos wields to impressive effect.
Interesting to reflect what would have happened if Greece had accepted the offer of Cyprus during WW1 from Britain for entry into the war. It seems likely the Turkish population would have been exchanged after the war and Northern Cyprus and the conflict that exists there would probably never have happened.
It would help to know if Prince Andrew really was correct to refuse the order. Would his troops have made a difference or been slaughtered?
He probably has a book to sell you if you want to know.
What a very well-written article! I was especially moved by the story of the catastrophe at Smyrna.
Phil the ex-Greek and an immigrant refugee in UK. All because of a monkey and a dog. An article written with humor worth reading
Except that he was not ex-Greek. He never was Greek!
Very interesting historical article. The only problem is that you misspelt Prince Philip’s German/Danish name. It is Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. The German family still own the Glücksburg castle in the most Northern Part of Germany.
“King Alexander’s septic leg, like the rest of the Greek royal family, possessed not a drop of Hellenic blood”
Here is where I must interpose a gentle correction. It was indeed against the wishes of his family and without the permission of the Church, but King Alexander had secretly married a Greek citizen with tons of Greek blood before he died.
Aspasia Manos, descendant of quite prominent and influential Greek families within the Ottoman Empire going back centuries, married the King secretly, and was four months pregnant at the time of the monkey-bite. As things settled down in Greece after Alexander’s death, she slowly climbed from being “Madame Manos”, the mother of a princess, to being recognised as a princess herself.
Their daughter (Alexandra) eventually married King Peter II of Yugoslavia, and the son of that marriage is the current pretender to the throne of Serbia, another Alexander.
So Princess Alexandra (she only died in 1993) was indeed a member of the “rest of the Greek royal family”, and had more than just a drop of Hellenic blood in her veins.
I found this article fascinating. But I would love to know how despite all the tribulations of his family and his early life it is clear that none of the family were ever poor. In the same way that despite the French revolution descendants of the monarchy never seem to be found sweeping the streets or even forced to work for a living.How do these people manage to hang on to their status and wealth as they clearly do?
They hang on to their status and usually live as hangers-on to the weathy relatives. But many did work.
Both surely?
but not all lunatics are socialists
Readers may not know that two other celebrated characters had gripping escapes from the Turkish destruction of Smyrna at that time – one was Aristotle Onassis (who lived a few doors from my grandfather’s family home) and the other was the future designer of the Mini and Morris Minor, Alec Issigonis. Smyrna was known as the most cosmopolitan city in the Mediterranean, with long established British, French and Italian communities.
Prince Philip also visited the Greek Orthodox monasteries – indeed he privately stayed in them for periods of time. He may have been more Greek than he said – at least in his attraction to Greek Orthodoxy.
I may have missed something, but Alexander was Philip’s cousin, not his uncle, surely? Alexander was the son of Constantine, Philip’s uncle.
‘Boys Own’ adventure.
This was a succinct and very interesting account, thank you. One special thing I did appreciate about this article was that the author did not aim to whitewash any of the participants in the grisly battles between the Greeks and the Turks, which ultimately led to the establishment of modern Turkey.
Regnal name not regal
Interesting piece. But I’m not sure why the absence of Prince Philip should mean we’d not get Charles or his sons. Admittedly in 1947 it would be tricky finding another European royal for Princess Elizabeth to marry, but surely not impossible?
Genetics matter.
Great article. A period of history i know little about but brought to life through one person’s family history.
A fascinating article.
Really interesting and illuminating. Thanks!
Thanks for your informative historical report. I suppose that any future counsel to the Royals would include the admonition: Beware of Greeks bearing sons.
Although, to be fair, Prince Philip’s allegiance to his Windsor wife has proven to be quite admirable, and even inspirational in its selflessly steadfast constancy.
An excellent pithy account by an author who usually annoys more than he informs. BTW, Mr Roussinos, you refer to your great grandfather and great grandmother as if you only had one – but you had four of both. Where did the others come from?
Skegness?
I just don’t like people picking out the particular ancesters that suit their purpose. Family history nuts are very good at this – all their inconsequential, humdrum ancestors never get a mention
” How many are aware, for example, that if Ataturk had lost the 1921 Battle of the Sakarya River, outside Ankara, not only would modern Turkey not exist, but neither would Princes Charles, William and Harry? “
I am a sucker for a bit of alternative history, but I take consolation from the thought that the alternative future might have panned out worse than the real one.
Phil the Greek was never Phil Mountbatten either, but he wanted to force the name on the Royal Family. It was just the Mountbatten’s doing social climbing.
interesting enough but … so what?
Why read it and then display your couldnt give a toss post? Why not move on to another topic? I suppose a decent history lesson is casting pearls amongst swine to Ray – eh Ray?
That can be said of anything by a person who has no interest.
Fk you poms are funny! Lol
I take it that you are a British-descended Antipodean?
Only on his Father’s side. His Mother’s side was pure Kangaroo ! Those Aussies, they’re so funny !
Ray Thomson is not a very interesting individual… so what?
I think Ray would have been more “engaged” if the author had written his opinions on the latest “Eastenders” story-line….
Your comment says more about you than the article. Personally, I felt wiser after reading it, interested in the many echoes down the years, and saddened, because much as the Turks have things to be proud about, Asia Minor was truly Greece, perhaps the most influential culture which ever existed.
I still find it remarkable that the Greeks retained a sense of nationality after decades of subjugation under the Turks, which separated them so much from their cultural heirs in Europe.