This article displays a real problem we have when thinking about this virus. People – like the author – can’t except as scientific any explanation for the virus behaviour that doesn’t involve human behaviour. Hence the vaccine has saved lives and whatever was happening already to cases before the lockdown or the existence of similar outcomes in nations/jurisdictions with minimal vaccine role out (South Africa) or light lockdown (Sweden, Florida) is ignored. It’s terrific that we have vaccines so soon, a real feat of engineering (regardless of your view of them), but ignoring natural causes we have no control over is not scientific. It also leads to the second problem – those obsessed with the virus will continue to be unapologetic in their brutalisation of their fellow man in suppression of it – safe in their belief it will work and be all that matters (like Tom here).
We’re never going to get out of this with out a change in attitude. It’s not acceptable to treat humanity like variables in an experiment to control a virus and mold all of human life around that aim.
Releasing everything slowly and once at a time is fine – if you were working with inanimate objects in a laboratory. This glacial pace of opening things up is callous when applied to human societies – regardless of what the science says. It’s also not true that there would be anything inevitable about locking down again if we go too fast and cases surge. It’s worth remembering, nothing we have done since March is ‘part of the script’ for dealing with these things and the scientific basis for these is almost as deficient as the moral case. Lockdown was a political choice, not a necessity based on prior pandemic preparation.
If we want to spare the blushes of a failing bureaucracy and the incompetents that run it(protect our NHS), then maybe we use a period of low infections to do something more constructive around increasing capacity and preventing hospital transmission, rather than lock everyone away.
Very well put. Mathematical modellers are not scientists, they are technocratic soothsayers. Their callous immorality and insoucient inhumanity has led to the dehumanisation of society under the guise of saving life.
My god ‘technocratic soothsayers’ , callous immorality’ ‘dehumanisation of society ‘. A bit overboard . If anything, we have become more ‘human’ and caring over the last year, showing care and appreciation for each other and those who work in the NHS and care homes
Really? My daughter had a seizure by the side of the road recently and many cars drove by pretending not to notice.
I see children fearful of mere people and the avoidance of the usual pleasantries that used to be part of every day life.
Au contraire. Wearing masks & supporting lockdown is supremely selfish. This new normal will destroy tens of millions of lives in Canada and the UK. Smug, virtue-signalling mask-wearing social-distancers are self-centred, short-sighted, and oblivious to the bigger picture and to the fate of all those in travel and entertainment, and oblivious to the fate of entire countries who depend on tourism.
And as more than one scientist has remarked: Modelling is the poorest form of science. Neither life, or anything in this universe can be reduced to the mere material, let alone ever be understood by number-crunching.
Science can only ever understand what it can measure, and so scientists, mere mortals, must choose what they measure, or what they are allowed or capable of measuring, and decide how it will be measured – what goes into the counting.
How could they ever get it wrong?
Brilliantly said. This article is nothing more than an extension of a narrative based on myth – that asymptomatic ‘cases’ are somehow relevant, and that the virus affects many people at all (1000 X worse for old v. sick people). It’s sobering to see how little correlation there is between blanket lockdowns and virus movement – even worse, it’s counter intuitive. The damage (death/illness from all causes/etc.) from lockdowns far outweighs the so-called good (? what ‘good’?). The NHS has been so run down for so long that it’s not fit for purpose (we knew that well before all this), and you are right, maybe we should fix it, systemically (and not privatise it by stealth, which we are doing). And how about preparing a few fever hospitals for future (and potentially) real threats. These policies have been a disaster and this kind of passive journalism adds more fat to the thickness of it all.
Funny, each lockdown is followed by a drop in cases. Funny how that happens across the world – regardless of whether they have, in your words a rundown NHS.
More accurately, each lockdown has been preceeded by a drop in cases; and countries who have not locked down have had similar viral curves to those that did, irrespective of the quality of their healthcare systems.
The lockdown in Wales was followed by an increase in cases. In fact, Merthyr Tydfyl became the most infected place in the UK. Not surprising when you lock people in their homes all day when they could be outside, where the virus doesn’t spread, getting vitamin D and fresh air.
Don’t forget “and harder”.
I think Lockdowns are so successful that we could use them to cure cancer and heart disease, a utopia led by modellers (guesswork).
Indeed, frankly I even think letting people out to get food has been a grave indulgence – sure we could have had a few million starvations, but think of the lower Covid rates.
Oh, phew! I see your sarcasm now…..your first comment was a little off-putting LOL. The intended tone went right over my head, and that of others given the downvotes ; )
People have said such preposterous things about this issue, in earnest, that it’s getting more and more difficult to detect sarcasm. My favourites are the “Covid Karens” – not always female, mind you – who insist that the failure of every lockdown is due to some people not “following the rules” and that if 100 percent of us would just submit to the tyranny, all would be well.
I think one mask is acceptable, if you live alone on a remote Island and keep your windows shut. Obviously if you phone someone you should wear 2 masks, and 3 if it’s a video call.
There are over 30 peer reviewed papers by eminent experts (not modellers or journalists) that prove conclusively that Lockdowns have no effect on mortality.
And how do they prove conclusively that a reduction in human to human transmission opportunities has no impact on transmission and therefore mortality?
Victoria had a highly successful lockdown and still 3 to 1 Covid to Seasonal Influenza deaths.
There is a core inner group who die whatever you do. In the West with obese and elderly frail populations the only major country with a sizeable population that has not ended up with a 3 to 1 death rate is Germany and there is a question there about counting methods not being symmetrical. I called 120,000 deaths six months ago and here we are its not clever its just a three times ratio. The other outlier is the US with 10 times the death rate but with 100,000,000 obese I am surprised its not more than 500,000.
South Africa has just had a second wave which plummeted down with no hard lockdown. I hate to use the phrase follow the science, so I will say follow the facts and the data. It is all out there.
Brilliant Lesley their LD is Laissez faire to say the least and they were supposed to be dealing with the highly contagious variant. It strikes me that whilst in laboratory conditions some of these variants are more sticky and capable of cellular attachment the reality is they do not defeat the same cautious approach that many people take. Otherwise how do the facts square up with both variants case numbers in England and SA plummeting and in the latter its nothing to do with a hard lockdown or in the former highly observant society.
Well naturally lockdowns lead to “a drop in cases”, of all kinds of transmissible illness; I haven’t had even a mild cold in over a year because I’ve gone almost nowhere (no travel, everything I like doing – singing in my choir, going to concerts, volunteering, taking community centre art classes – not happening) and have been mostly working from home, but that doesn’t necessarily mean lockdowns are a good thing. I don’t miss getting colds, they’re nasty, but they don’t kill me, and nor does COVID-19 kill the overwhelming majority of people who get it. It seems apparent that many people who “get” it don’t get sick at all. Isolating ourselves from each other is bad for us in the long run, bad for our immune systems and bad for us psychologically. And there’s still no evidence that any of these lockdowns made a difference in the death rate from COVID-19. A similar or lower death rate in places that had few or no lockdowns or restrictions suggests they were completely futile, but caused – and are still causing – long term damage, not just to the economy, which can recover, but to human communities and individual lives.
Quite right Lock down no lock down cases high, case low 800 excess deaths at home a week since May with only 2% Sars CoV 2 related thats how successful the strategy is. Thats before we get onto the other disastrous consequences.
ive tried hard to discern your point but other than that your don’t like scientists and lockdowns I can’t see what it is unless your are saying it’s not morally acceptable for politicians to do what they can to protect the health and lives of people?
Are the health and lives of people and the suppression of the virus necessarily the same thing? At what point does doing whatever necessary to achieve the latter cause unreasonable damage itself to the former? If the suppression of a virus must always take primacy in our considerations, why has it never done so before march 2020? Were we all just callous and stupid back then?
I actually have great admiration for scientists (less so for journalists) and a great hope that the scientific method will improve all our lives for a long time to come. Unfortunately, the science that supports lockdown risks ending that hope. A science that perpetuates dystopia is regressive and may as well be an instruction to go back to medieval times.
How is it scaremongering when no one knows the long-term results of these injections, that are not “vaccines” according to the medical definition of such? I would call that common sense evaluation. It is the government propaganda machine that is scaring people into getting the “vaccine” for something that is equivalent to the flu (which also kills some people). According to the manufacturers it doesn’t guarantee being infected, re-infected or stop transmission; so what’s the point?
Well said. It is astonishing how many people know the facts and yet still we are pushed along by hysterical vaccine-obsessed governments and so-called medical and scientific experts.
What are we missing? Is Covid manmade and they know potentially disastrous outcomes? Something is not right.
More than one science-medical expert has said the same thing.
Professor Dolores Cahill, Professor of Translational Research and Molecular genetics, School of Medicine, University College Dublin, may be a controversial figure but she has the ‘street cred’ to comment on the issue and others have said the same. Professor Dolores Cahill, speaking about RNA vaccines “I suppose there are potentially three adverse reactions (from messenger RNA vaccines—MODERNA, PFIZER). Beginning with anaphylaxis (severe, potentially life-threatening allergic reaction) in the first week. Therefore, these vaccines shouldn’t be given in the 2nd dose. Then the real adverse events will happen, against whatever is the real mRNA in the vaccines, and when the person vaccinated comes across (this coronavirus) sometime later …. what happened in the animal studies, 20% or 50% or 100% of the animals died!”
I am happier trusting the US and UK regulators on the matter of vaccine safety than a bunch of conspiratorial vaccine deniers. Perhaps I am a foolish stooge; I’m taking the vaccine so we will see.
No one is forcing you to take the vaccine. Please do not as you worry that you might drop dead. (Although of course covid itself is harmless…)
Private businesses and employers will increasingly make their own decisions on whether to require people on their premises to have been vaccinated. I have no problem with that.
There are global studies following people post covid infection which show it is extremely unlikely to get reinfection. They are at around the 9 month stage. Israel is not vaccinating people currently who were infected on the basis of this research. T cell immunity appears to be involved which confers at least medium term protection. Natural immunity also is better at dealing with variants.
We don’t like people lying to us. Trying to profit off us like did in 2009 with the swine flu. They nearly did it that time. It died in summer but they were still pushing cases with the PCR tests. It just didn’t take.
“Morally acceptable” or not, things politicians do rarely have any positive outcome. From my own personal point of view, the only action governments have any business doing in a situation like this is to halt international travel and to close the borders, or at least subject them to stringent controls, letting in people only who have citizenship or permanent residency status, because their first responsibility is to their own citizens, not to the convenience of international travelers or potential immigrants or asylum seekers. The UK government did none of these things, at the beginning of the pandemic. How does it make sense, to close down businesses and virtually lock people in their homes, while thousands of people are still entering the country every single day?
The government’s response to border quarantine was far too slow and I don’t think they are doing enough still. But the virus is now widespread in the UK and far outstrips the introduction of new virus from outside, so you can hardly ignore the internal circulation.
The UK Pandemic Preparedness Strategy never envisaged closing borders because “the UK generally has a high level of international connectivity…” and “…modelling suggests that imposing a 90% restriction on all air travel to the UK at the point a pandemic emerges would only delay the peak of a pandemic wave by one to two weeks. Even a 99.9% travel restriction might delay a pandemic wave by only two months”. The same would logically apply to variants.
Name me one MD/ medical officer who is competent to assess the long and medium term effects on mortality and morbidity of destroying the livelihoods of tens of millions and of forcing retail and transit employees and others into fuggy facemasks for entire day-long shifts. These stupid measures do nothing but postpone for a short while exposure to the virus.
Spot on, David. The focus has changed over the past year.
Initially, we were told that we would shoot for “herd immunity”. Then, as that fraud, Ferguson admitted, the SAGE crew saw Italy get away with a Chinese-style Social Control experiment and realised that they might just get away with it in the UK. Unfortunately, they did, and by the brilliant move of putting the salaried people on 80% pay indefinitely, they got huge buy-in from the UK population who were quite happy to stay at home binge-watching Netflix and getting pissed. The “I’m okay, Jack” mentality took over and it was easy to ignore the 3 to 3.5 million who were unlawfully told to close their businesses and given no compensation in return.
It started with a 2 to 3 week period of quarantining the entire population (minus the “essential workers” of course, hence nullifying the quarantine) to “flatten the curve and save the NHS”. Then it gradually became a grand experiment. From a position of accepting that there was risk and that some people would die, we went to the “whatever it takes” position where no deaths at all were acceptable.
Except that, of course, the lockdown itself generated excess deaths that were not caused by the virus. Two out of every five, according to the government. So, 40 000+ who died because of the lockdown.
Now, we’re told that if we don’t do the millimeter-by-millimeter reduction of restrictions, we’ll kill another 50 000 people. Again, Covid-19 deaths are unacceptable, but it’s okay to ensure that the entire population will have their lives shortened because of this, and the estimate from SAGE is an additional 500 000 deaths in the years to come. All because of the lockdown. But they won’t be counted as “Covid-19 deaths” so that’s all okay.
The government is supposed to weigh up the Scientific advice and balance that with the other factors, such as the cost in terms of mental health, increased use of alcohol and other drugs, the destruction of businesses and the resultant unemployment and homelessness. So far, its claimed that 7000 households have been made homeless because of the lockdown. How many will that be once the full effects kick in? It’s well known that poverty, and especially, homelessness, have a hugely negative effect on health.
The single-issue focus on ONE virus, to the exclusion of all other diseases, all the economic effects, a callous disregard of the mental health of children and adults and total disregard of the health of the millions of people who have not received the care that they needed from the NHS means that the harm done by the virus has been amplified and displaced to the 50+ million people under 65 who were at virtually zero risk from the virus.
Has a cost/benefit analysis been done for continuing to quarantine the healthy? No risk assesment was done for ANY of the lockdown regulations.
Who authorised Johnson, Hancock, Whitty, Valance and the SAGE group to perform a huge social experiment on the people of Britain?
No cost benefit analysis has been done, possibly because it would not come out favourably for the Government. We have already spent more than double the annual budget of the NHS on fighting this virus and I’m not sure we’ve got value for money, particularly if you use NICE Quality Adjusted Life Years as a guide. Nonetheless, the spending, and all the other associated costs of lockdown, continue at an alarming rate. As you say, people were quite happy to get paid to stay at home binge-watching Netflix and getting pissed, but I’m sure once payback time comes we’ll struggle to find anyone who admits they were pro-lockdown. To quote Dr John Lee: “you don’t improve the health of a country by making it poorer”.
It isn’t just Florida. Life outside the big cities in the USA haven’t changed much and most are back to normal. I live in a supposed “lockdown” state. It isn’t true. You can go to Ellensburg in Washington state and sit inside restaurants and bars and largely go on your way unmolested by the psychopathic big pharma totalitarians and their paid off government agents. You can even go into grocery stores without a mask! I was in a jam packed bar in Coeur D’Alene Idaho with people elbow to elbow at the bar and others playing pool. You can still get a haircut there without wearing a damn mask. You go into Seattle and Tacoma and it is a ghost town. You go into any store without a mask and people at first gasp and then yell at you. I live on the Kitsap Peninsula where it was in between at the worst but opening up now. At peak stupid there was only a couple establishments I didn’t have to wear a mask in (one of them turned into a speakeasy during our only full lockdown last Spring). Now I don’t wear a mask in the majority of bars and restaurants I go to. They are still wearing masks in the grocery stores here. I am not even sure any of this was real. The average age of death was over life expectancy. The had abandoned healthcare outside of covid and focused more on stopping virus spread than helping patients. The care in elderly homes appears to have been criminal. How many of these deaths would have been prevented if we didn’t shutdown our healthcare system and didn’t abandon our nursing home elderly? Are less people dying because we are starting to open up our healthcare system again? They are letting at least one family person into hospitals with the person being cared for now where I am at. This alone will improve health care. There is at least check on care and an advocate for the family member being treated again. How many people have they killed for poor care? I work with over 400 people and have two family run businesses I’m involved in. I come across a lot of people. I know a lot of people who tested positive for covid. In fact a younger couple and their baby all tested positive for covid. Wife and child had a light cough and low grade fever for 3 days and the father never had any symptoms. They all laugh about it now. Oh… the dreaded covid!!! I read one “study” that suggested most people die within the year once they’ve had covid. I guess this family only has 5 months to live now? LMAO. I ask the fear mongers what the average age of the deaths are and they tell me I’m a covid denier. This is the extent of the “science” as far as I can tell. We literally have all lost our minds. I’m not getting the vaccine. I’m not doing the health passport. In fact. For the rest of my life I’m just going to assume I’m being lied to by big pharma and the “experts”. I think I’ll be living a lot closer to the truth at that point. .
Amen. Unbelievable that they continue pushing flu vaccines year after year, knowing full well the real-world efficacy is 10-15% at best (due to obesity, diabetes, pre-existing conditions, poor diet, poor sleep, the fact that we know of 200+ variants of the flu with likely 1000s more out there and have zero clue as to which one will manifest strongest in the upcoming season, etc.). But ya know, Merck and GSK gotta eat I guess?
Flu vaccines have certainly reduced the rate of flu deaths, even if only by 10 or 15 percent. But there’s a theory that most of the people who have (supposedly) died of COVID were people who had their lives artificially extended by flu vaccines. Put another way, without the flu vaccines, they likely would have died of flu before 2020. It’s a brutally cold way of looking at it; obviously these were still people whose families mourned their loss greatly. But still, they were very elderly, frail, and already in very poor health. COVID-19, a disease for which there was no vaccine and to which they had no natural immunity, took advantage of a vacuum, a large population of very vulnerable people.
Well, there is a theory, just a theory, that the many Italian elderly who died of Covid early last year all had, a few months earlier, a certain flu vaccine that was possibly contaminated with some coronavirus. Not sure where I read this. Could have been Cahill, but I think there was more than one.
Google Byram Bridle, Magic Talk Radio New Zealand, for an interview in which he discusses his concerns about the Covid-19 vaccines. Byram is a viral immunologist at the University of Guelph.
As C.J. Hopkins, an award-winning American playwright, novelist and political satirist based in Berlin, said:
The important thing at the moment is to defeat this common-flu-like pestilence that has no significant effect on age-adjusted death rates, and the mortality profile of which is more or less identical to the normal mortality profile, but which has nonetheless left the global corporatocracy no choice but to “lock down” the entire planet, plunge millions into desperate poverty, order everyone to wear medical-looking masks, unleash armed goon squads to raid people’s homes, and otherwise transform society into a pathologized-totalitarian nightmare.
And, of course, the only way to do that (i.e., save humanity from a flu-like bug) is to coercively vaccinate every single human being on the planet Earth!
OK, you’re probably thinking that doesn’t make much sense, this crusade to vaccinate the entire species against a relatively standard respiratory virus, but that’s just because you are still thinking critically.
You really need to stop thinking like that. As The New York Times just pointed out:
critical thinking isn’t helping.”
Robert Camplin
3 years ago
Given the rushed nature of these vaccines and genetic treatments, surely for the sake of humanity it would be wise to leave the children alone until enough time has passed to validate claims of safety?
Some medical experts have said adverse effects may not be seen for many months, if not a few years. If we get this wrong then at least the children should be kept safe.
If the health of otherwise young, healthy individuals is potentially at stake it would seem like a no-brainer, wouldn’t it?
The Sanofi Dengvaxia case in the Philippines, where the vaccine for Dengue Fever in healthier subjects was suspected in promoting a latter more deadly response in a not inconsiderable number of its recipients, should certainly act as a warning to those who seem so keen plough on regardless.
Definitely do not vaccinate children with this experimental agent. It is ludicrous to do so. We have no long term studies showing what this jab may do and not many short-term revelations either. This author is out to lunch on this article. Just sounds like more fear mongering to me.
America’s FrontLine Doctors are recommending against offering the vaccine to either children or women of child-bearing age.
LUKE LOZE
3 years ago
Another article from Tom Chivers that is pro lockdown, without ever questioning it, or and here’s a crazy idea looking at real world facts.
Cases peaked prior to lockdown 3 by about a week (this is backed up by tested, admission and death data).
The well recorded facts that the correlation between lockdowns, cases and deaths is weak. Researching this and understanding it and where the value is, is key.
We also know from last year when cases began receding (again before lockdown) that huge crowds of peaceful rioting thugs did not cause any rise in cases. Nor the crowded beaches etc.
By some measures we’re the 3rd most locked down country in the world, we’ve been restricted for nearly a year. The result is in the top 5 death rates.
I suppose I’ve got to hand it to the UK lockdown marketing department, its a tough sell – but they’ve done a remarkable job.
I can’t help but think that focused protection of the known vulnerable would have saved 70%+ of the lives, for a lot less damage to society. And I still look grimly forward to finding out who signed off killing 20,000+ care home residents.
This discussion has now become a bit of an old chestnut. Everyone has a theory and a solution and all lack real knowledge. Mr Revealed, (who now has changed his name to TR, I suspect) comes in with a lot of pro-lockdown ‘facts’.
To criticise what you have written: Yes, a lot of analysis is needed to look at the correlation between lockdown, cases and deaths. The crowds of rioting people and beach-goers is an opinion which is colourful but not very meaningful. We are in the top 5 death rates but we need to look at fitness of the population in general. Fitness for life has to be important for not dying. “I can’t help but think……” is exactly that – thoughts.
Since the very first lockdown I have been against lockdown on principle. I have said this a lot to my family and now would not be invited around for tea, even if lockdown went away. I am fit, run about 30 miles a week (a 145lb weakling) and feel very strong so I don’t feel vulnerable. So, to be against lockdowns and to protect the vulnerable seems the natural thing to do.
There is a caveat coming. I’m not sure that the vulnerable can be protected, even if they want to be safe. During the first lockdown many people tried breaking into care homes to be with their mother/father – they thought that being close was more important – the younger people needed the support.
I have since seen older, heavier, people chatting as normal in supermarket queues as if there was no virus. I have seen man and wife dawdling around supermarkets and she says, “What do you fancy for tea tonight?” They stop and discuss it and lose all idea of who is around them. The point is that they have had this same discussion for the last 30 years or more.
At the beginning my wife was getting very close to people to talk, maybe a metre away, because this just felt normal. She even believed that family members were relatively safe because they were trusted whereas non-family could not be trusted – this is a sort of natural feeling which is in our genes.
So, in fact, I don’t believe it is possible to protect the vulnerable, which really brings us back to one question, “Is using a lockdown worth taking away the freedom of the younger generation and, if not, should the lives of hundreds of thousands of older people be sacrificed for those young people.?” I am still anti-lockdown but every time I go out I waiver.
I understand where you’re coming from. There’s also a couple of key points/admissions:
A huge proportion of the benefit of lockdown happens naturally – people don’t want to catch nasty viruses or pass them on, rules or no rules. A significant proportion of the economic damage of lockdown happens naturally – without lockdown the economy would have taken a big hit anyway.
I just don’t think we would be sacrificing 100,000s of older peoples lives with a more focused lockdown, we could be saving some. There’s just no evidence worldwide to back up lockdowns save huge numbers. Look at the also terribly unhealthy US, the wide difference in lockdowns doesn’t show in the death stats.
I’m also dissapointed though not suprised that the author is worried about protecting vaccine refuseniks. Nope sorry, if my own parents had refused vaccinations I’d still want my freedom back. People who have refused vaccination are frankly foolish, and should not hold others to ransom.
“I can’t help but think……” is exactly that – thoughts”. Well of course, because thoughts (hopefully based on data) are all we have. I’m not in a position to perform massive RCTs on lockdowns and focused protection. I suppose I could happily sit here and create a model (not that hard) – then like SAGE et al not really know a huge number of the variables to input, so come up with meaningless figures. “The crowds of rioting people and beach-goers is an opinion which is colourful but not very meaningful.” Again we were told that this would cause massive outbreaks, yet it didn’t. SAGE and co seem to completely ignore any fact that doesn’t match their models.
We have all lived without lockdowns and health passports for all our lives. If the government and big pharma are going to go full scale totalitarian on us they better provide ample proof that what they are doing works and that the billionaire class isn’t profiting from our loss of freedoms. Pretty clear what is going on and what the real danger is from where I am sitting. Great times to be an oligarch.
Do we even know if they properly fed and kept the elderly well hydrated? God knows how the dementia patients were treated without their family members being allowed in to check on them. What happened is not OK.
John Stone
3 years ago
Many will be familiar with business models (and Gates certainly is) where you sell more products just because they are defective. The scandal is the way the PTB have sabotaged other interventions (vitamins, zinc, HCQ, Ivermectin etc while sinking all our money into junk tech solutions – track and trace which doesn’t work and hit or miss vaccines). Vaccinating children who are mostly not at risk is immoral (but that won’t worry our politicians).
Or more to the point: sell fast before anyone notices the built-in faults. The classic “Hype Graph” comes to mind, where sales ramp up to start with, then decline, might recover a bit, then level off. Most industrialists, including the pharmaceutical trade, will be familiar with this economic effect.
Unfortunately the consequences of mass vaccination going wrong are much more frightening than the disease itself. Especially for the under 60s with no underlying health issues.
BTW unrecorded by the MSM the MHRA have listed 150 fatal reactions from about 5m doses of the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine as opposed to 173 from 7.5m doses of the Pfizer (Oxford AZ fatality rate about 20% higher). This is as distinct from the many thousands of deaths of elderly people dismissed as coincidental.
I can’t find any of these figures on the MHRA site. I can see that there have been 151 and 60 allergic reactions to vaccine ingredients, but none are reported as fatal. Fact checks on DW and on Full Fact can’t substantiate the stories circualting about deaths. Where is your information coming from?
Should we vaccinate children? NO.
Should we make children wear masks? NO
Should we force social distancing on children NO.
Should we put the fear of death in innocent children, over a non-existent “deadly” virus? NO.
What is wrong with you people? Seriously?
Yes, sadly Alex that is why. Let children develop an immune system and stop trying to interject with all these vaccines. Stopping some diseases while creating chronic disease and auto immune diseases is not better.
I teach kids and work with young special needs people and they are all unfortunately showing the effects of a year of relentless media brainwashing. COVID injects itself constantly into their conversations. They’re told to accept it as the reason their social lives have been basically halted, the reason they couldn’t see their friends or exchange gifts, candy, or cookies for Valentine’s Day, couldn’t go out trick or treating for Halloween, couldn’t have sleepovers, playdates, spontaneous socializing, Christmas parties, birthday parties, etc, the reason there were no visits to water parks or fairs or carnivals this past summer…but still, there are plenty of diversions available for them on their screens, 2021’s version of Brave New World’s Soma drug. But they know it’s an inadequate substitute for what they really need, which is physical freedom, the basic and fundamental right to explore their world and to encounter potential risks and dangers and to learn and grow from these experiences. They’ve all been taught to fear the world immensely and to accept that the adults in their lives know what’s best for them, and that some day, hopefully not too far in the future, everything will be “safe” again so they can have freedom again. But the world has never been safe, in the sense of being completely free of dangers. It never will be.
I agree; it’s crazy to even talk about vaccinating children against a disease almost none of them even get, let alone die from. Even apart from the potential risks of the vaccine, it’s a waste of resources. The vaccine should go to the ones who are vulnerable, like my elderly mother who has been stoically suffering semi-imprisonment for the past year, unable to do anything she loves and that makes her life worth living. Once they’re protected, life can get back to normal.
What we have witnessed in 2020 is the greatest crime ever committed on mankind, and I for one will not rest until every single one of these criminal medical mafia, (and evil) politicians are brought to justice.
Athena Jones
3 years ago
The safety of these vaccines will NOT be known for at least another year or two. If the fears of deadly auto-immune disease are valid, then future generations will have been sacrificed on the altar of vaccine obsession.
When will we ever ‘know’ though? Why in a year or two? Perhaps whatever is bad in the vaccine will take 2 decades to kill people, perhaps instead it will affect your great, great, great grandchildren? Or perhaps all 10 million people who caught Covid will drop dead in 5 years time?
In France and Germany even large numbers of medics are refusing the AZ vaccine – with reports of illnesses caused by it. Meanwhile in the UK probably 15 million have had that vaccine, with no known serious side effects. The efficency rating so far is exceeding all expectations.
It’s kind of interesting to watch educated Europeans to act in idiotic xenophobia/nationalistic ways. It reminds us if nothing else that idiocy is universal. Perhaps the UK should have some small pride that when it comes to vaccines we’ve not only produced one and rolled them out fast – we as a people are also sensible enough to take them.
This is the reason why, under ordinary circumstances, vaccine approval takes several years. Long-term side effects are expected to emerge within a few years’ time and the only way to monitor for them and be certain is literal trial and error.
In France and Germany they are experiencing the nocebo effect.
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
I don’t know what it’s like in England, but in the US, the number of mandatory vaccines for children is already at three dozen or so. Contrast that to when I was a kid and the number was fewer than ten. We had the usual boosters: measles/mumps/rubella, and diptheria/tetanus/polio. Somehow we survived and we did not have the exotic allergies that are so prevalent today. Now, people want to add another shot? At what point does a child’s immune system have the chance to develop?
This is a virus, which means it is never ever going to go away. Just like the flu never will, or HIV, or the common cold. Ever. And we already know that covid is least harmful to the young. As the song said, leave them kids alone.
Parents and children are punished for not complying with schedules and in some States cannot go to school. That is close enough to mandatory, at least for the workers who have no other option but to get to work. They cannot home school.
Nick Faulks
3 years ago
Testing an experimental vaccine on children who are not even affected by the disease against which it protects them is wrong. I think that was established at Nuremberg, and people who did it were hanged.
Totally agree. Usual childhood vaccines that protect against diseases that harm or kill children are not mandatory so as a paediatrician, I will reject any move to make Covid 19 vaccine mandatory in a population that is not at risk.
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
As Katie Hopkins said in her excellent video yesterday, it’s not a roadmap, it’s a death march, especially for shop keepers and the hospitality industry.
Talking sense on most issues? Does this include calling migrants vermin and cockroaches. The woman is a nasty piece of work devoid of any compassion for anyone less fortunate than her.
I think we should. She has done some very hard hitting documentaries and many of her pronouncements are now staring us in the face. She warned USA about letting The Democrats in. She warned about Boris being pro amnesty for illegals. She also warned about three weeks to flatten the curve turning into Project Fear to vaccinate the population …last May…..
Your memory is faulty. It was never three weeks to flatten the curve, it was 12 weeks. Which turned out to be pretty accurate.
The three week period was the interval demanded, rightly, by Parliament before the measures had to be formally reviewed.
‘Katie Hopkins’ and ‘excellent’ is it even possible to have one with the other ! Terrible and largely ignorant woman
Martin Price
3 years ago
Tom I realise you are trying to trigger your readership with the teasing “just a thought- let’s vaccinate children” shtick. If I’m wrong please take a long hard look in the mirror.
I think he actually asked the question should we vaccinate children. To which I say, unless someone comes up with some well evidenced case to show that it would harm them, and if it would help in massively reducing the number of cases in adults , then yes we should
Thanks for your reply David. Let me be clear I am not against vaccination as I have taken all the vaccinations that were necessary and offered to me in my lifetime. My resistance to child vaccination is based on the fact that Covid 19 poses no threat to this age range and that although the millions of people already vaccinated have shown only minor reaction we cannot guarantee it’s long term safety yet. The point I would challenge you on strongly is that we should provide evidence that it is safe for children long term (which we can’t) rather than provide the negative that you demand which is it seems to do no harm (which we can’t). To insist children take any risk when covid19 does not harm them is immoral.
As it is children are part of the biggest medical experiment in human history – vaccination, and are the major labrats. If we are getting it wrong as more and more vaccinations are added to the list, we will have no-one to blame but ourselves. If enough humans survive the experiment.
Happily, you’re not in any way able to influence paediatric practice. You should be ashamed of that comment.
Rob Cameron
3 years ago
The article started well and then the last 3 paragraphs are flippant, probably to generate a response. I’m over 50 and will happily take the vaccine when it is offered to me. My children are of school age and have had all the ‘jabs’ including MMR. However, I can’t see the sense in vaccinating children against something that does them no harm. There have been 4 corona viruses circulating in humanity for hundreds of years. Our ancestors built up a natural immunity to those corona viruses. Our kids will build up a natural immunity to SARS-Covid-2 and pass that on to their children. Vaccines are good but are we getting a little bit carried away with our scientists being the masters of the universe? Could we in any way be holding back future generations ability to develop natural immunities and protect themselves? Do they become increasingly reliant on medical interventions as their own immune responses have been diminished?
What about the point that the more virus circulates the more likely a new mutation will evolve which is either more fatal or has a greater impact on children?
There is no reason to assume that’s likely, or any more likely than another type of corona virus that has been circulating amongst the young and healthy population for decades suddenly mutating into something far more dangerous. Viruses naturally mutate all the time, but how often does a benign one mutate into a deadly one? Has it ever happened?
Humans are subjected to trillions of viruses every day. They are all around us. They are part of our normal biological function. Anyone who thinks a vaccine or so can counter that is delusional. Anyone who thinks viruses should be targeted and wiped out is insane.
The virus has the opportunity to mutate a lot when the host is poorly and can’t fight it off. That is it has a host for weeks rather than the usual week. I therefore think we should be using the vaccine for all vulnerable people round the world rather than for first world fit people.
Yes Rob exactly. Natural immunity following infection is much better at fighting variants. I worry that the vaccination frenzy will weaken the herd for the future
mike otter
3 years ago
Adding to the general pile on here, this article makes neither acknowledgement or allowance for the fact that SARS-CoV2 is a virus. The writer seems to think its some demoniacal phenomena in the same way people saw the black death in the middle ages. As a virus it can only behave like a virus. If it has a CFR over 50% it will become extinct very quickly. It appears to have a CFR of about 1%, so a very bad flu but not H5N1. So it will become a successful virus in evolutionary terms and will survive to become an archeovirus in time. People with sever risk factors – age, compromised immunity etc will continue to die from SARS-CoV2 as they do from HKU1. I accept the manufactured panic was a good way to hide the overdue recession/adjustment without giving Occupy/BLM/Ecoloons etc cause to riot against capitalism. However i think the authorities, and their cheerleaders like Chivers, have taken this way too far.
If it’s ok, I’d like to either give you a whole upvote for the first half of that, or half a vote for the whole thing.
Sandra Barwick
3 years ago
No. If you support vaccinating children, Chivers, with vaccines whose long term effects are unknown, first put your house and life savings into a trust, and your income, and future income, and pledge them in case a minority of children – let alone a higher proportion – have serious long term side effects.
There is no other cover for them.
This plan, which you support, is based on “modelling” whic assumes the virus is not seasonal.
What is your response to that?
To what degree is natural immunity accounted for in the models?
How long does immunity last from vaccines?
How long does natural immunity last on current evidence, see the last summary in Cell?
Do you have any conflicts of interest, Chivers?
Jonathan Jones
3 years ago
We have no idea if the vaccines are AmAziNGLy SaFe because they have not been tested for long-term side effects or the effects female fertility.
If one is old and/or has significant co-morbidity factors then factoring in the fatality rates of Covid-19 for their cohort it will likely be that the risks of the vaccine are less for them than the risks of the virus. For anyone under 50/60 with no health issues and who is not obese, the opposite is true.
The NHS is borderline worthless. I have never had a satisfactory experience using its “services”. The one time in my life I actually needed a medical test (an ultrasound – not even anything major) the waiting list was so long I ended up paying for it privately. I am fortunate that I had the money to do so, unlike many others. If it had been run properly and those in government were in any way competent, ensuring it was ready for an event like this and that planning was there for it to scale up when needed would have been in place already. It needs to be torn down and reformed from the ground up.
And yes, I am more than willing to give up the right to treatment by this tarnished golden calf organization due to my opinions – just as soon as I am issued a cheque for the full amount of what I have paid into it via taxation.
Last edited 3 years ago by Jonathan Jones
Anjela Kewell
3 years ago
Everyone seems to be pushing this untested vaccine as the panacea to freedom. Helloooooo we lost our freedom last February when this scam was turned into Globalist Project Fear to bring Trump down.
When will a decent journalist starting asking about the Care Home scandal. The job losses and the lack of new startup businesses. All coming down the road as the next year unfolds. Not to mention the huge death toll from illnesses ignored over the last year.
The next round of lockdowns, and they will come, will be to hide the deaths from the second dose vaccines, the unprecedented number of cancer and related illnesses hitting the funeral parlours, not to mention the suicides from those businesses unable to pay furlough back AND pay salaries.
People are being primed with the first pathogen. Some have succumbed but the majority will find next winter will be the cliff hanger. Not one sensible journalist is asking searching questions.
I agree Anjela. The mainstream media must be owned by big pharma, government etc because they aren’t asking some very obvious questions. This experimental jab is just that and the human population largely are guinea pigs. Just wait until next year when the virus speaks up again; then the consequences will be better known.
And vaccine death and injury will be blamed on Covid. We already see that where people with co-morbidities died it was blamed on Covid, now, if they die after being vaccinated, it is blamed on co-morbidities. Neat trick. How many will fall for it.
Jo Jones
3 years ago
Little has angered me recently more than this article. I’m a senior consultant Paediatrician and I abhor the throwaway comment that it’s ‘safe’ for children to be vaccinated to make it even safer for adults. Many adults die of Covid 19 because they have come to the end of their natural life. Their age is not the only factor here but how lucky they have been in life with health, their genes and sometimes how carefully (or lack thereof) they have looked after their health. Children are not at risk from this virus and I do NOT believe that they are wandering around symptomless but pouring out virus particles to a hapless adult population. A year in a child’s life feels like forever and their social , emotional and learning opportunities have been utterly decimated. I see desperate children every day, the commonest cause of death aged 10-19 is suicide and my patients’ lives have been dismissed as irrelevant in the search to rid a population of a virus which will always be with us.
A revolting end to a pointless article. I’m so angry.
My question is, why do so few medical professionals speak the truths you cite? Some do and are mocked and removed from online access.
We need medical professionals to stand up and speak out against the insanely hysterical response to a virus which is no threat to the vast majority and to raise valid concerns about experimental vaccines being pushed/forced on everyone.
It beggars belief that medical professionals can go along with this idea of using a poorly tested, potentially life and health-destroying vaccine or genetic treatment against a virus which is no risk to 99.9% of people.
Your voice is better than none but we need more.
I completely agree. I know one of the Sage members as I studied with him. Some months ago, I asked some very pointed questions and he obfuscated, skirting away from the truth. I wasn’t going to let him get away with that so I drilled down and in the end, he agreed with me. I have no idea how he sleeps at night.
Athena there have been drs who have spoken out. Some lost their jobs. One eminent dr of respiratory disease was arrested and detained for 6 days. In a European country! Just heard him speak. I will find the link if anyone asks.
Thank you Jo. My exact sentiments. I can’t believe people want to use an experimental vaccine on children when at the very least it has no benefits for them
Last edited 3 years ago by Laure Levy
Stephen Collins
3 years ago
It’s not baffling that it is “irreversible”, it is a sign that finally the penny has dropped with certain key players in government that actually, the country and the world has to get on with things and suck up whatever the health impacts of further potential COVID outbreaks are, simply to avoid becoming a failed state and/or incurring worse health and economic outcomes. Even Hancock has been quoted recently as saying that next winter, COVID will be an endemic respiratory virus. That doesn’t mean no-one catches it and no-one dies from (or even with) it, but it does mean the death rate is back within its normal (ie, not statistically significantly different from the average) range. It could also be a sign that government has realised that the ridiculous charade the world has been playing for the last year has had next to no effect on transmission/outbreak/reductions in infections, and it has finally found a way it thinks it can sell the de-escalation plan to the general public without committing political suicide.
The next thing to come up is the renewal of the legislation in a month’s time. Which could be interesting.
Sean L
3 years ago
Globalist capo di tutti capi, CEO BlackRock Inc & Agenda Contributor, World Economic Forum, Larry Fink recently spoke of the holy trinity of “Covid, Climate, Racial Justice: the three great issues of our time”.
In other words media / officialdom are bought and paid for. Covid truth tellers such as Reiner Fuellmich, Robert Kennedy Jr, Dr Mike Yeadon censored from public discourse entirely.
So-called media ‘sceptics’ are lying by omission, maintaining the pretence that restrictions are a disproportionate response to a ‘pandemic’. Akin to those who used to be condemned as “useful idiots” serving interests they ostensibly oppose.
Fuellmich calls Covid “organised crime”. His detailed allegations implicating Media/Tech/Pharma plutocrats and their lackeys, like this author and this site, citing official figures contradicting their own propaganda, cannot be rebutted and must be regarded as noises off: discredited as “anti-vax” “conspiracy theories” and so on.
But the facts are in the public domain. The network of scientists, lawyers and other professionals is gathering strength as official lies are exposed. Whatever resources big tech and media cartels muster they can’t suppress the truth. It’s only a matter of time before the tide turns.
UK government agency MRHA put out a tender months ago for AI software to handle ADR (adverse reactions) to a vaccine. Whistleblower footage from care homes is now emerging showing not only the reactions of victims but of staff forcing the vaccine on their patients. Apparently they’re on commission per vaccination. Just like a VAR (Value Added Reseller) selling Microsoft products.
They’re even resorting to telesales. I took a call last week inviting me to book my “high priority” vaccine appointment. When I said “no thank you”, she replied that “we all need to be vaccinated to get out of lockdown”. Look forward to UnHerd article about Nuremberg Code on voluntary consent. Not.
“Covid truth tellers such as Reiner Fuellmich, Robert Kennedy Jr, Dr Mike Yeadon”. Lol – these people are lying grifters, charlatans, opportunists and narcissists. Yeadon in particular has not been “censured”; he has chosen to desist from his increasingly ridiculous tweeting and delete his social media accounts after becoming very embarassed by some of his earlier narratives on other subjects. Just before departing, he lied about this too – claimed he was hacked. By time travellers it seems. I saw an episode of Star Trek with a similar plot and maybe he should write for the next series of it. Fuellmich is just out to find some litigation angle out of which to make a buck. Kennedy is spokesman for “Childrens Health” (sic) – nuff said.
The so-called Nuremberg Code btw, though it is far from applicable here and is thus irrelevant, is a theoretical construct which has not been incorporated into the legislative system of any country of which I am aware.
Your post is exactly what you accuse the truth-tellers of doing. The truth is obviously not what we’re being sold by a pack of liars. Since when do we trust the people that benefit from perpetrating a crime? It’s clear what’s going on, and it’s not that the people you mentioned are risking their careers, future, and perhaps lives to be “grifters, charlatans, opportunists and narcissists” peddling lies. No, they’re speaking the truth, and you’re participating in their demonization. But this game is close to being over. Many of us, and increasingly more of us, are awake to the corruption rampant at high levels of society in this world. Let me tell you something: you will be taken down, you will not hide the truth, you will not perpetrate your diabolical insanity on the world. You will fail.
Adam C
3 years ago
If someone had given Tom Chivers a dangerously rushed vaccine with no understanding of the possible side-effects when he was an infant, maybe he wouldn’t be around to day to write such drivel
Daisy D
3 years ago
So many good rebuttals to Mr. Chivers cold blooded analysis, I’ll only add this: What’s being called a vaccine is not a vaccine. It’s a wholly new – and largely untested – shot that involves changing RNA messaging.
When I pulled the foil off my yogurt this morning, it contained the reassuring message: Made w/milk from non-GMO fed cows. Ah, if only we were cows and not humans being genetically modified by this so called vaccine.
I’ll emphasize that this thing – in the very unlikely event that it end up reducing harm from the Covid-19 plague – ought not be given any child. Why? Because children are not getting sick w/Covid (they’ve been exposed to lots of other Covid viruses and have built up immunity) and so, they cannot spread what they do not have. And while we’re at, toss the magical masks .. and w/it a potent virtue symbol, which is entirely ineffective at preventing anything but proper respiration and intake of fresh air.
Mike Finn
3 years ago
The reason children aren’t included is because the vaccine trials on children have not yet completed. As with all medicines, it is considered highly ethically unsound to test on children at low risk until safety is proven on a higher risk adult group. The trials on children are currently underway, and so would be very strange if the government were to put dates on vaccinating children when we don’t know when this will be possible. Also, since the evidence seems to indicate that young children are much less likely to spread the disease even without a vaccine, it seems we should get around to this once we have the trial data to show that vaccinating children is necessary, safe and effective.
Vaccinating children to protect adults is not acceptable.
Andrew Crisp
3 years ago
So disappointing to see the government propaganda line so heartily pushed here without an iota of inspection of the data (put out by the ONS).
How can you talk of vaccine success? The “vaccine” (It is not a vaccine by pre-covid definition of the word) experiment is NOT over according to the manufacturers, who say they need till 2023 to be able to evaluate the results. The overall death rate for 2020 is within the 5 year average. The excess deaths appear AFTER lockdown (probably from those that could not get treatment) and is not significantly different than a “normal” flu year. The PCR is unreliable and gives false results and was not intended for diagnosis of infections. The “covid” will come again next winter just like the flu. There is no end to the invention of new mutations that require yet another vaccine. We do not need this vaccine. When you reach the end of your body’s life span it will be in a weakened state. Your immune system will succumb to a virus or infection, that is the natural ending of a body. It is mostly the elderly that are affected by this flu-like virus, the same as it is every year, only this time it has been monetized to the hilt and has justified (wrongly) the totalitarian health dictats from the government and a loss of human rights. This will only get worse if it is not resisted. The more the government narrative is validated by articles like this, the easier it becomes for the hoodwinking to continue.
Jeremy Rolls
3 years ago
Boris’s road out of lockdown is most certainly not sensible and my heart sank when I heard more decisions had been made based on (unpublished and no doubt un-peer reviewed) modelling from Imperial College which, according to the BBC at least, does not even take into account the seasonal effect (i.e. reduction post-winter) in respiratory illnesses. All the data shows that the vaccination programme is having a very positive impact and what always gets forgotten is that probably at least 30% of the population have had the virus and there are several studies showing immunity lasts for many months. Put all that in the mix and taking an overall view of public health and well being (not a narrow one based on one disease) we should be opening up society much more quickly.
In the above context vaccinating children is a sideshow and irrelevance. The number of people under 18 who have died or become seriously ill is thankfully very small. Sure they may contribute to transmission but given we have already vaccinated enough people to reduce significantly the impact on the NHS (which after all was allegedly the point of lockdown in the first place) vaccinating children will have little impact and certainly should not distract from ensuring we have vaccinated all the vulnerable groups and progressed with the programme of second doses.
Peter Whitehead
3 years ago
There seems to be an assumption that we have a limitless supply of susceptible people. This thinking probably grew from assumptions a year ago that not one person had any natural defence. Both assumptions, as with many assumptions, are wrong.
Chris Clark
3 years ago
In answer to the headline: No.
Last edited 3 years ago by Chris Clark
david bewick
3 years ago
We can’t expect the vaccine to be entirely successful, he said, because even if it’s 80% effective, we’re only vaccinating 80% of the population – adults – and 80% of 80% is only about 65%. Completely ignores the ~30% of the population that have infected/recovered immunity or natural/cross immunity.
All while ignoring the fact that children don’t get sick w/Covid.
Simon Latham
3 years ago
Typical conformity with the Gov’t line from Chivers – the Telegraph was more illuminating on Saturday when it published a piece by Prof David Livermore. His advice was to come out of lockdown swiftly: the vulnerable have been vaccinated and the virus needs to pass through the population when their defences are in good shape in Spring and Summer. Continued lockdown forces the virus to mutate, eventually it will get around the vaccines or lead to a more deadly version.
Oh and of course we shouldn’t mess up our children further by vaccinating then. Young immune systems are up to the job of dealing with coronaviruses. It has also been demonstrated to Devi Sridhar’s satisfaction that primary school age children (Norway) do not contribute to spread of infection.
Of course, it’s not about people’s health. That was pretty clear about a year ago from where I’m sitting.
Last edited 3 years ago by allthingscandid
Frederik van Beek
3 years ago
Wouldn’t it be a good idea for Unherd to totally ignore TC, with his utter nonsensical strategy which is in fact a zero-covid-derivation. I wonder if he has children and if so I pity them.
Last edited 3 years ago by Frederik van Beek
G Harris
3 years ago
The simple fact is that people, and by that I mean those most vulnerable to covid, can’t die twice and hence the natural, gradual slowdown in death rates.
Given its ubiquity, the disease is unlikely to ever disappear and flame out completely and will become endemic, much like its cousin, flu, picking off most of its most vulnerable, hapless victims in the winter months.
In terms of those who we’ve neglected over the last year, instead throwing seemingly anything and everything we’ve got at fighting covid and ‘saving the NHS’ in the process, given that the precedent has now been set, should we now expect the many, many liberated millions fully expected to deluge our newly ‘saved’, severely depleted healthcare system, now with nothing like the previously healthy economy and taxbase to support it, to pretend that they’re really not that ill with a view to doing much the same thing over again?
Last edited 3 years ago by G Harris
Richard Lord
3 years ago
Did you not see that last week some children in Oxford were given the Oxford Astrazenica vaccine as part of a formal trial. If you’re going to write you need to keep up.
Jeff Andrews
3 years ago
Johnson and therefore the entire country is a victim of him being persuaded into a 3 week lockdown he never wanted. There’s no escape now, it will ruin us.
John Ottaway
3 years ago
I am a 66 year old man, with heart disease. I had a triple heart bypass 5 years ago and a minor stroke 15 months ago. Therefore theoretically classed as a vulnerable person.
But I would never ask or expect my children or grandchildren to be vaccinated to protect grandma and grandad. I ‘ve lived my life and when my time is up that’s it.
We were all given immune systems developed over millions of years and we must all do our best to protect our own immune system. Eat healthily, take some outdoor exercise regularly, perhaps take some supplements, C, D , perhaps zinc.
And if we look after our immune system it will look after us. Be extremely careful what you allow to bypass that immune system. Which is exactly what a vaccine does.
We all know people of have had the vaccine. Most are ok with some mild discomfort. But that is for now. Some effects may not be known for a while. Like the vaccine for the Sars 1 virus after which many children around Europe developed Narcolepsy.
Our children are precious and we must look after them at all costs. There is a lot of evil in this world.
Now I would like to talk about the virus. It’s been ravaging for year now. But just think for a moment, really think and consider. Aside from on the TV and in the newspapers do you see any signs of a pandemic as you go about your daily business. In the streets, in the supermarkets etc.
I go walking 2 or 3 hours every day. I’ve never seen any signs of anyone been distressed, coughing and spluttering, seemingly in difficulty. Certainly nothing like the early scenes from Wuhan where people were laying in the streets. How real was that? Do you trust the CCP.?
An example of distressed people in the street. About 15 years ago when I was a much younger man working in Holland I caught a serious bout of flu. I had to walk from the railway station to my apartment , a distance of 1 kilometer , with my holdall. On that short journey I literally had to keep stopping every few meters, putting my bag down and holding onto the street railings to support myself while I was coughing and drying my eyes. I’ve seen nothing vaguely resembling that anywhere over the past year.
One of the leaders of the Hamish people was asked why the people did not fear the virus or wear face masks. He replied ‘because they did not have TV or read newspapers’.
The Lockdowns are not about stemming the virus. Ivor Cummins has proved conclusively many times that whatever the lockdown measures implemented or released, it has absolutely no impact on the direction or shape of the curve. None at all. Same all over the world. Check out all his great research by searching for Ivor Cummins Viral Issue, and watch any of his podcasts. He’s been proving this stuff since last September.
No, the Lockdowns are about crashing the economies so they can bring in ‘The Great Reset’. You may even have read about that in the mainstream news. Where they say something like, ‘some nut jobs think this is just about bringing in the Great Reset. But that’s just a Conspiracy Theory’.
That’s what they do. They know some people will learn the truth and try to spread it. They cannot hide it, so they label it a Conspiracy Theory. And the sheeple, they say ‘oh I heard that one but its just a Conspiracy Theory, and they dismiss it and get on with their lives, locked down to save the NHS.
Or they fact check it , and label it false or fake news. And the sheeple , they say. ‘I heard that but its fake news’. Ask yourself, who checks the fact checkers, and more importantly who owns them.
See their tricks work a treat every time. Because education has been so dumbed down that no-one has the ability to think for themselves anymore. And many don’t care because they are so comfortable in their lives , for now! Till the economy is so broken the Government can no longer pay our pensions and your benefits.
You can find out about The Great Reset many places round the internet. But one good place to find it is on Dr Mercolas website. Mercola full stop com. Ignore any warnings from Wikipedia that Dr Mercola is a quack doctor who’s been totally discredited, or any warning that visiting his website may infect your computer with a virus. That’s more tricks they use to keep you away from learning the truth.
Those that would censor own Wikipedia. Recently they changed the definition of ‘Herd Immunity’ from , ‘when enough people have immunity to a virus to prevent it spreading’ to ‘when enough people have been vaccinated against a virus to prevent it spreading’ or roughly that. Scary stuff hey?
Once enough people know the truth they can no longer maintain the lie. But the grown ups in the UK are some of the sleepiest in the world and have been asleep on their own watch. But you must all begin to wake up before it is too late. For the sake of your children and grandchildren. Us oldies, we’ve had our lives. Lived out in freedom. And we want the same for children, and their children.
While we believe the lie, Hancock and Whitty can keep us locked up virtually forever, for their New World Order. Fully let us out in June on the promise of it’s forever. Then come Autumn the virus, or a new strain will re-emerge and they can lock us down again. Simples.
As I say use your eyes, and your own intuition. Except on TV or in the newspapers, do you see any poorly people. More than normal.
I know many on here will label me another nut job, fruit cake, conspiracy theorist, whatever.
So I am going to provide you with what many will call a Conspiracy Theory. And then ask you to do the easiest piece of research. Right from your computer, right now , while you are reading this.
The Conspiracy Theory. Antifa is under the direction and Guidance and control of the Democrats and the Deep State. Now most folk will say that’s a Conspiracy theory.
The easy research. Open a new browsing tab on your computer. Directly into the browser, keyin antifa full stop com. Obviously put a proper full stop in the middle. You’ll be shocked to see it redirects you immediately to The White House with numerous pictures of Administrator Biden.
Wake up folks, before its too late.
Well said. I doubt many if any people in the risk group would want anyone vaccinated in their name let along children and young people.
allthingscandid
3 years ago
The fact that such an anti-scientific view – as this author displays – is still being promulgated goes to show how one of two things is going on.
People are so dependent on the authorities to feed them their dose of “truth” that they don’t even think about reasoning through things themselves, and God forbid a journalist from doing any work digging into the matter at all.
These people are themselves part of the cause of the problem, perhaps even part of the technocratic regime that seeks to rule all of society down to every last minutia.
The incredible blindness that one must have to not see an absolute train wreck coming from a rushed, experimental, new technology such as mRNA vaccines is just astounding! “Let’s parrot what we’re being told about the safety, safety, safety of this “miracle vaccine” by the very people who screwed us over to begin with as they sold us an obviously false narrative of a PCR test-driven “pandemic”, accompanied by anti-human, anti-social, anti-reason tyrannical governmental force, guilt, fear porn, and flat-out propaganda.” Maybe the silver lining is the peek inside their diabolical plans for the future (Bill Gates I’m looking at you), where now millions of people are waking up to the psychopaths that run the asylum.
Tom, this article is not only obvious worship at the feet of technocracy and a corrupt medical/pharma/government complex, but it is extremely lacking in terms of any sort of reason, balance, or actual concern for what could be absolutely catastrophic for the entire world. Please do better, way better.
No, we should absolutely not vaccinate children when they have no issues with the virus whatsoever, are you mad?!
Last edited 3 years ago by allthingscandid
Richard Spicer
3 years ago
Chivers ignores the age factor in children. Primary school children are at no risk nor do they spread Covid. I do not think primary schools should ever have closed. The PM probably closed them to avoid a fighrt with the unions.
Secondary schools are the ones that should be investigated by sensible trials.
Bob Ryan
3 years ago
Looking at the data here and in the USA, we are experiencing a rapid drop in cases from the January peak, with the corresponding drop in hospital admissions and deaths. Vaccination is now coming into the mix, and in two to three weeks, its full impact will be even clearer. It is also clear that the Government recognise that the issue is how we move from pandemic to endemic, where the virus is no longer a random killer but more an unwelcome addition to the small club of coronaviruses that cause the common cold. But even the common cold can be deadly when it gets into a naive population or one where susceptibility is high.
A simple calculation suggests that ‘herd immunity’ will not be achievable with CV19 and that a more controlled strategy of building ‘herd resilience’ will be more successful. Coronaviruses have vaulted species to become infectious in humans before and not just SARS and MERS. OC43 is a suspect in the Russian Flu pandemic in the early 1890s. Slowly, through infection – recovery and many deaths, it progressed down through the population to become, primarily, an infection of childhood.
A resilience strategy should then seek to mimic the virus’s natural evolution to endemic status (1), aided by vastly better medical care and vaccination. Inevitably, the move to endemic status is accompanied by mutations of the virus and new variants. This virus is no different from others – in some respects, it is better behaved than many. There is some evidence accumulating that T-cell immunity holds up well in dealing with reinfection and, indeed, that preceding infection with other CV’s reduces susceptibility to severe illness (2). So vaccinate across all susceptible groups, forget about case numbers – hospitalizations are key in deciding interventions – and slowly but decisively unlock. Lockdown becomes progressively self-defeating as all it does is defer transmission, infection, hospitalisation and death. Transmission, at some level, is inevitable. Forget elimination of the virus – it is here to stay; it will not become less virulent, but we can force the pace with which we build herd resilience.
Levine, J., Bjornstad, O.N., Antia, R, Immunological characteristics govern the transition of COVID-19 to endemicity Science 2021 Feb 12;371(6530):741-745.doi: 10.1126/science.abe6522.Epub 2021 Jan 12
Manish Sagar, Katherine Reifler, Michael Rossi, Nancy S. Miller, Pranay Sinha, Laura White, Joseph P. Mizgerd. Recent endemic coronavirus infection is associated with less severe COVID-19. Journal of Clinical Investigation, 2020; DOI: 10.1172/JCI143380
Athena Jones
3 years ago
The important facts are, this virus presents no threat to the vast majority of people. The risk group, very old and very sick is at risk from everything.
These vaccines and genetic treatments called vaccines are rushed, poorly tested and highly experimental. All the excuses in the world will never make up for the reality they were constructed in less than a year which is a ridiculously small amount of time for vaccines. And not everyone has faith in the claim that computer whizz kids could do things to study the ‘vaccines’ which old-fashioned, slow, steady research was not allowed to do.
We will not know for many months or a few years if they cause similar results as animal studies, i.e. deadly and destructive auto-immune responses or cytokine storms. Hypercytokinemia, is a physiological reaction in humans and other animals in which the innate immune system causes an uncontrolled and excessive release of pro-inflammatory signaling molecules called cytokines.
Surely until we are absolutely sure we would not go near the children? That is common sense. They cannot make a mature decision themselves and they are our future.
Good one; as usual on here more truth value below than above the line. But that’s the rule on most sites, the divide mirroring that between officialdom and the populace. They’re all bought and paid for. As my former university teacher Roger Scruton used to say, the parameters of permissible opinion were wider in Soviet era Eastern Bloc than in England today.
Athena, you say: “The important facts are, this virus presents no threat to the vast majority of people. The risk group, very old and very sick is at risk from everything.” Exactly! Who on earth decided on a global vaccination campaign, of everyone on the planet?! Instead of a proportionate and targeted response. How could this happen? Shattering our ‘liberal democracies’ in the process… Because Bill Gates is leading international vaccination policy now…a software billionaire dominates this area of public policy, with umpteen academics and associated hangers-on on his teat of cash… See: What you need to know about the COVID-19 vaccine. Bill Gates. 30 April 2020.
“We” didn’t decide anything of course, but certain people did. When you step back and look at the fact that very wealthy and capable individuals and groups did a little mock exercise (Event 201, watch it for yourself, not making this up!) for a virus outbreak a couple of months prior to it actually happening, and then somehow the entire world wasn’t prepared to deal with it, you begin to see the reality that the nonsensical nature of what’s happening is not nonsensical at all. This chaos – restructuring of society around totalitarian, technocratic aims – was completely desired, and highly likely most of it was planned.
The beauty is, many who were fast asleep are now waking out of their slumber, and we are on the edge of a new Great Awakening, the likes of which the world hasn’t seen before, ever. Keep fighting the good fight, this will not end well for them. I am sure of it.
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago
Tom Chivers says: “The vaccines are amazingly safe in adults, and I don’t know of any reason why they’d be less safe in children.” What an audacious statement… We are at the start of an unprecedented vaccination campaign for millions, potentially billions, of people of all ages…this is the biggest medical experiment in history.
Vaccines, particularly for our children, are the biggest medicl experiment in history. Sanity would have us erring on the side of caution, but no, more, more and more, up from 2-3 at older ages in the early Seventies to more than 50 vaccinations in the first five years of life, beginning within hours of birth if not in utero.
How closely will science-medicine be looking at the significant drop in Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, which appeared as the vaccine schedule ramped up, in 2020 when fewer parents complied with vaccine schedules in the US because of the fear of Covid?
Vaccines are designed to trick the immune system into reacting to a non-threat. Such confusion is unnatural. Little wonder cancer in children and auto-immune diseases have skyrocketed in the age of heavily increased vaccination.
How can so much confusion in an immature immune system ever lead to robust, normal function? A child’s system is now tricked, confused, manipulated into acting unnaturally dozens of times in the first five years of life and now they want to add a genetic treatment to the list…
It’s insanity. Thankfully many many people are waking up. Keep speaking truth, no matter what names they call you or threats they throw at you. This is not the time to be timid. Take this battle to them, put them on the defensive. We will win this war.
leonardozuid
3 years ago
Utterly immoral. Neurenberg Protocol forbids medical experiments on people who cannot (legally) express there will. Furthermore, any person should always be able to withdraw from the experiment, which is impossible when vaccinating. From the contract between the State of Israel and Pfizer it is very clear that vaccination is a medical trial ending January 31, 2023. Likewise the Helsinki committee has ruled. Vaccinating children for a disease which does not affect them is a crime against humanity. See you in court.
Kieran O'Driscoll
3 years ago
The schools have been open here in Thailand for months and life is pretty normal. No one is dying and no one is getting sick. This whole nonsense is about generations who are ignorant, ill informed, poorly educated and brain washed, who have no clue about risk and danger because they were not allowed to do anything by overprotective mollycoddling parents. This is a flu and it’s not a pandemic. The numbers speak for themselves. 2.5 million deaths (a grossly exaggerated number) globally out of 7,500 million humans =0.033% or 99.967% not dead. Get grip on reality…
Last edited 3 years ago by Kieran O'Driscoll
Lillian Fry
3 years ago
Sweden
Ray Thomson
3 years ago
I know it’s desperately unfair but these days I tend to file all material in which the PM is matily referred to ‘Boris’ in the bin.
Von Kloutlichter
3 years ago
The author states that 85% of vaccinated people do not require hospitalisation compared to unvaccinated people, out of a population of 5.4 million in Scotland. So what!!
The fact is that without the vaccine around 98% or more of the population do not require hospitalisation. Therefore you are actually talking about 85% of the people that may have needed to go to hospital ,do not now need to go. Now that is great, but it isn’t the same thing insinuated. It is a tiny amount of people.
Also children and young adults require hospitalisation so rarely ,any other time it wouldn’t even be mentioned.
The whole thing is a scam. Why? Well ask yourself WHO profits?.
Kat Kazak
3 years ago
I believe the real danger lies in mutations, if you vaccinate a person with a compromised immune system and then that person catches the virus anyway and develops a persisting covid that they battle for several months, you will invariably end up with a strain that is very far from the original and immune or resistant to the antibodies produced by the vaccination. WHO and governments around the world need to get ahead of this before it’s too late.
Read the article “Persistence and Evolution of SARS-CoV-2 in an Immunocompromised Host” in the New England journal of medicine. It was released in November 2020 and documents 20 mutations of covid that appeared inside one immunocompromised host that had persisting covid for 5 months. In december the British strain was analyzed and it was 23 mutations away from the original virus, with no “in-betweens”, so the conclusion was that it too originated from one immunocompromised host. That was before the vaccination, though. With vaccination and a compromised immune system you will create the perfect breeding ground specifically for a strain that is resistant to antibodies produced by this specific vaccine. You are welcome to read recent articles in Science and Scientific American and others (as well research the concepts of viral genetics and antigenic drift), just Google “virus mutation in compromised immune systems” and definitely check out “SARS-CoV-2 evolution and vaccines: cause for concern?” In the Lancet
(I hope you’re right and I don’t know what I’m saying and better yet I’m going crazy or hallucinating)
G Harris
3 years ago
Is the headline picture Boris’s spin on ‘This is Your Life’?
Mangle Tangle
3 years ago
Tom, good article, as usual. But I’m still uncomfortable with the idea that the only variable affecting infection rates (and deaths) in this country, and versus other countries, is the policies enacted by the government on lockdown types, timing and durations. These clearly play a role but are not the only factor. For example, it’s known that obesity is a huge risk factor for a bad outcome (both in its own right and because it predisposes to (and is a result of) hypertension, diabetes and metabolic disease. And the UK is the fattest nation in Europe. Genetic factors definitely play a role too, particularly in the tendency to develop the unpleasant cytokine storm. It may be that there are more people with those genes in this country than, for example, in Germany. I don’t know. And then there’s the age profile of a country, too. And low levels of Vitamin D in the population (now known with stone-cold certainly to predispose to severe outcomes) vary across Europe, with us being very vulnerable (being ‘oop north’) and having a terribly weak and poorly communicated public policy on this vital hormone. The whole issue of severe disease and deaths is not simply just a function of policy mistakes on lockdown. The whole thing’s more nuanced. One final moan on one big policy mistake: aerosol inhalation is a very significant way of catching the virus, but public health messages and education are all about handwashing (by far the least likely way to reduce risk) and mask-wearing/spacing. There’s nothing about aerosol risk and the need to ventilate enclosed/small spaces. Extraordinary.
Michelle Johnston
3 years ago
It’s extra ordinary how certain ideas become accepted with out question and as others have touched on natural orthodoxy is sidestepped in favour of always discussing human intervention.
This virus will be around for a long time just like every other one but its impact on society whatever we do will not. India is already a forerunner of that notion even if there is a little more uptick in a couple of states. But to the central question.
The simple answer is NO.
By all means push male secondary school teachers up the ladder whose mortality risk is higher than other working groups average and then female secondary school teachers who are slightly less at risk but a cohort who in the main are either asymptomatic or “poorly for a few days” should be allowed at the beginning of their lives to build natural immunity the effect of which with even ONS stats of nearly 20% is curiously absent from the conversation.
In Sweden the rate of infection last year was downward to children rather than up from them. Mothers congregating after school are well known to flout the SD rules and probably have contributed far more to transmission than anything else. They need to be given strict guidelines to collect children over a staggered period and not congregate.
Last edited 3 years ago by Michelle Johnston
Trish Castle
3 years ago
I think it is a little too early to describe these vaccines as “amazingly safe”. In a recent interview on an NZ radio station, Byram Bridle, viral immunologist from the University of Guelph, discusses some of his concerns. I can’t post the link, but this very interesting interview can be found by searching for Magic Talk New Zealand
Last edited 3 years ago by Trish Castle
mshawj
3 years ago
If you would like to read a more balanced article than this (Tom Chiver’s article) please read my article published in conservativewoman.co.uk on 19th February under the heading ‘ Why the vaccination roll-out shouldn’t be rushed’
Thanks. I tried to write a balanced article and get people to ask reasonable questions and not feel pressured or rushed into making a decision.
I also want the public to ask themselves whether the scientists who have made the decisions on lockdowns and vaccinations are really as wise as they think they are. The human body and it’s immune system is phenomenal beyond words. Technology may be a wonderful thing but if you give scientists the raw chemical ingredients to make a single basic cell would they be capable of doing so without using what the body already provides?
Hamish Hossick
3 years ago
“The vaccines are amazingly safe in adults”
As the Phase 1 trials of the Pfizer vaccine are due to be completed in June, it’s rather premature to proclaim success. These vaccines are radical and the time to assess what side effects there may be has some time to go yet.
After a year, a great many will have been exposed to the virus and may not require any vaccination, but, most importantly, the real threat to the young and healthy was always small, so under no circumstances should an experimental vaccine be administered to children.
Zorro Tomorrow
3 years ago
At two months (eight weeks)
6-in-one vaccine (DTaP/IPV/Hib/HepB) – this provides protection for following: diptheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), polio, Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) and hepatitis B.
Pneumococcal or pneumo jab (PCV) – this provides protection against some types of pneumococcal infection.
Rotavirus – this jab provides protection against rotavirus infection, a common cause of childhood diarrhoea and sickness.
Most people think nothing of giving these to newborn babies. It looks horrific. These must have been tested on the young. Known reactions are the same as the new Covid 19 jabs. To fuss about giving a tiny dose of the adenovirus based Oxford jab tested on the chimpanzee, a creature the closest in the animal kingdom DNA to ourselves? I can’t speak for the Pfizer but its effect on the adult poulation seems the same. On these and many other comments pages there seems to be a common seam of “whatever the government wants, I don’t.” The commentariat have poor grounds to complain, they know very little about the subject and remind me of the same consensus as those who vilified Galileo and Copernicus. Flat earthers and conspiracy nutters to one side, we weren’t free before. Wasn’t it a government plot worldwide to provide pubs, parks, gyms and concerts to keep the hoi polloi quiet? Bread and circuses before. If they’d wanted to take over the world they would have let the disease run its course and kept the vaccine for themselves. A few public figures, pub landlords and our grandparents dying tragically and we’d have locked ourselves down. And ruined the economy for them. Pathetic hysterical folk.
‘Most people think nothing of giving these to newborn babies’.
True, but aside from the well known ideal herd immunity level issues, these are jabs to primarily to protect them from serious diseases, not their aging grandparents from something even most of them won’t be vulnerable to either.
One would also like to assume that in spite of the serious conditions they’re designed to prevent or lessen, they weren’t developed and released on the public at large within a previously unprecedented short time frame either.
Finally, with this in mind, not all vaccines are necessarily considered safe. Even ones that have previously undergone years of rigorous testing. Some are withdrawn over fears that they might not be safe and that assumed benefits might not be worth the risks.
‘I can’t speak for the Pfizer, but its effect on the adult population seems the same’
An interesting choice of words there, not least because the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine is already recommended by the CDC for use on those 16 or over and yet uses a relatively novel, largely unproven, often contentious in past technology called mRNA.
A ‘delivery’ method that the Oxford vaccine does not which, I suspect, is why you chose your phrasing so carefully.
I agree, most people don’t question giving their newborn babies that cocktail of vaccines. That’s the problem!
Also, it was the majority who vilified Galileo and Copernicus – just like the majority today vilifies anyone who questions its view on vaccines.
And your phrase, ‘a tiny dose’, sounds so innocuous – in spite of the ingredients and the fact that it is intravenous and therefore bypasses the body’s natural defence mechanisms.
At what age are the measles and chicken pox vaccines usually given? I know there’s an issue with unvaccinated kids being around babies because they could catch measles from them, so presumably the vaccine is too dangerous to give to children under a certain age. Never got it myself, being 58, I and all my siblings had and recovered from measles as very young children. I had no idea it was considered such a serious disease until measles shots started becoming commonplace; I thought it was no more serious than chicken pox, which is usually no big deal when young children get it (can be horrible for adults who get it though, hence the vaccine being a good idea).
Yup, and the fact that we don’t question that is really sad. Our children do not live in their own waste, drink from contaminated sources, or experience extreme malnutrition. Vaccines didn’t save us from infectious diseases, cleaning up our immediate environment did. It is an unproven theory, and largely disproved, that vaccines have saved us from any of the diseases. There is, however, abundant evidence that they have caused, and are causing, major issues, such as the AIDS outbreak (read The River by Ed Hooper), CFS/ME (Chronic Fatigue), pathogenic priming, new variants of the very pathogens being targeted, alzheimer’s, neurological disorders, autoimmune disorders, and much more.
James Moss
3 years ago
Of course we should.
No Catch-22 applies to pediatric application of medical products any more than it does to adult application. The usual course taken is to establish safety and efficacy in adults first then to move on to children from this position of relative safety.
Whilst the risk to children from Covid-19 is happily quite low, it is higher than for other diseases which we now routinely vaccinate against – such as meningitis. Thus “anti-vaxxers” will be against this, as they are against vaccination in general, but the rest of us should not be.
In addition there are the benefits of (a) reducing the effect of children as vectors of infection spread; and (b) depriving the virus of yet another reservoir within which it has the opportunity to mutate. Ethically we should perhaps see that vaccines get to adults in poorer countries first, but children should be vaccinated too – it is virtually a no-brainer.
Only 6 children, without pre-existing illness, have died in England with a positive test for SarsCoV2. Far more are killed in road accidents. There is no case to vaccinate children with these novel products which have emergency authorization only. When the trials are complete in 2023 we can re-evaluate.
actually, the medical profession is not allowed to just use medical products on children, if they have been approved for adults . There is still a process to test safety in children, who are not just little adults. So far fewer drugs are passed for paediatric use. In particular, the longer term side effects of vaccination may be much more of a risk to children and young people than to older people, while the young are less likely to have serious infection (although certainly they are at risk). Even in the best of times, vaccine trials do not continue to monitor for months or years to look for long term impacts. Autoimmune illness is already increasing by 3-9% annually (British Society for Immunology). Many sufferers of autoimmune illnesses are ignored by the health services. The day the medical profession explain this rise is the day that I’ll believe they know everything about what causes chronic illnesses. Until then, being in a family with a history of autoimmune illnesses, I’ll consider the risks very carefully. It will be a scandal if Covid is the excuse used by the pharma industry (and Bill Gates) to get their long term aim of compulsory global vaccinations. It would be more reassuring if governments had not removed from vaccine companies any risk of claims for injury. If the government will guarantee that they will give benefits, possibly for life, to any who suffer ongoing illness from the vaccine, it would give us more confidence.
Agree your first 2-3 sentences – which is why pediatric trials are now being conducted. This fell within my words “move on to children”. Sorry I wasn’t clear about the trials.
The “long-term risks” part is largely guff as is the attempt to link a rise in autoimmune disease with vaccines. It’s anti-vaxx cut and paste rhetoric and I can’t be bothered with it.
Neither vaccinated children nor vaccinated adults will stop being vectors of infection spread.
Covid vaccines, so their manufacturers and scientists in general have been admitting from the start, are supposed to protect* from severe disease and death, not from spreading the vírus*.
What’s the point of vaccinating healthy young people when the frail and the old have been vaccinated?
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the vaccines. Reduction of severe disease and death is highly unlikely not to be associated with a reduction in the period and amount of viral shedding. Transmission reduction was for good reason not the primary endpoint of the trials so far conducted, but if data doesn’t go on to show that, I’ll eat one of my masks.
As to your “what’s the point” question, none of “immunity gained from vaccination”, “frailty” or “age” are either binary or time-independent variables, hence the point in vaccinating young so-called “healthy” people.
Is an ‘anti vaxxer’ a person who believes you shouldn’t inject children with experimental medication for a virus that is less harmful to them than the flu?
If it is, I am an anti vaxxer, but what does it make you?
Generally, to my mind, it’s someone poorly informed about matters related to vaccination who seeks to spread that misinformation to others so as to influence their behaviour, so yes, you probably are. Viz:
(i) Perjorative use of the word “experimental” in referring to the vaccines.
(ii) False claim that the SARS-Cov-2 virus is less harmful than influenza.
A study was done in the US in recent years which revealed parents questioning vaccines were, in general, vastly better informed than the average and even much better informed than doctors.
But, studies also show the group of questioners, dismissed as anti-vaxxers are also more likely to be professionals and highly educated so more than capable of doing the research required.
Good science and safe medicine require questions, or they once did. Only a fool would take on faith something which could harm themselves or their children, regardless of how well-intentioned it might appear.
Truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
Those questioning vaccines are being sensible. Those questioning Covid vaccines are being sensible and responsible. There are many doctors and scientists questioning Covid vaccines.
Semmelweiss was mocked and ridiculed for suggesting doctors needed to wash their hands in order to save the lives of birthing mothers. He was right but they drove him out anyway and went back to their dirty ways even as the kill count rocketed up again.
The doctor who first raised the alarm about Thalidomide was also mocked and many more deformed babies were born before reason took the stage.
Without the questioners we cannot have good science or safe medicine.
These are standard anti-vaxxer cut and paste arguments. I am really not interested. The Semmelweiss being laughed at one is particularly poor. They laughed at Coco the Clown too. They still do. You pick someone whose “whacky idea” turned out to be right as an argument that all your whacky ideas are going to turn out to be right. Dream on.
A study was done in the US in recent years which revealed parents questioning vaccines were, in general, vastly better informed than the average and even much better informed than doctors.
But, studies also show the group of questioners, dismissed as anti-vaxxers are also more likely to be professionals and highly educated so more than capable of doing the research required.
Good science and safe medicine require questions, or they once did. Only a fool would take on faith something which could harm themselves or their children, regardless of how well-intentioned it might appear.
Untrue. I’ve been prescribing for children for 27 years. Most medicines for children are unlicensed (lack of RCTs in children) but they will have a) passed phase trials of efficacy and safety and b) hard been around in the adult population long enough to understand late possible effects.
Your cavalier attitude to children is awful.
The awful attitude I see is in people who are happy to expose children and everyone else to both the short-term and unknown long-term effects of a virus which in a naive subject are very clearly a worse risk to that subject than any one of the vaccines so far authorised in the US and Europe..
Paul Wright
3 years ago
Masterful triggering of UnHinged’s sizeable contingent of antivaxers. Comments from the “Bill Gates microchipped my grandma” posse incoming in 5…4…3…2… 1… Go! Go! Go! Send in the clowns!
Most people’s objections to being reduced to bit actors in an unprecedented social experiment is more nuanced and humanitarian than the straw man argument of ‘they’re all hysterical anti vaxxers’ suggests.Some of them are – but that doesn’t invalidate the majority.
Even the conspiracy theorists need to have their concerns addressed – unless you deny government’s ever do things through malice, ideology or just stupidity that would be against their people’s interests in saner times (a quick glance at history is all that’s needed here).
I’m going to take my vaccine, but I’m not going to dismiss others concerns as if I’ve just had a religious conversion and I’m damning the heretics.
I think the smugness is a little misplaced there. If you support vaccines and are in a position to know, it would be better to educate than patronise.
Freedom of choice is key, and so should your right to personal privacy regarding whether you’ve had it or not.
This increasing tendency to ‘binarize’ everything and everyone nowadays, as this gentleman ably demonstrates by his comment doesn’t help, both in terms of making an informed, on balance personal decision and exercising the right to free speech.
Truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
Those questioning vaccines are being sensible. Those questioning Covid vaccines are being sensible and responsible. There are many doctors and scientists questioning Covid vaccines.
Semmelweiss was mocked and ridiculed for suggesting doctors needed to wash their hands in order to save the lives of birthing mothers. He was right but they drove him out anyway and went back to their dirty ways even as the kill count rocketed up again.
The doctor who first raised the alarm about Thalidomide was also mocked and many more deformed babies were born before reason took the stage.
Without the questioners we cannot have good science or safe medicine.
Yes, but Semmelweis was not right because he was ridiculed. It’s because he understood the emerging science of infection better that supporters of the “miasma” theory. Similarly, the fact that some people “question” vaccines does not invalidate the vaccines. There is no causal relationship in either case.
The efficacy of vaccines will be established by scientific research, as were Semmelweiss’ theories. At the moment I can’t find any sunstantiated reason not to have a vaccine. Having a wife and daughter (aged 18) who are still suffering the debilitating effects of COVID after up to 3 months, I can find excellent reasons to have one.
I received my first dose of AZ yesterday and I’m still alive.
Debilitating effects for some, nothing for others. Everyone should obviously be free to inject themselves with experimental technology if they so choose, but as a whole let’s be cautious and not so brazen about worshipping the equivalent of modern shamanistic practices.
We are playing with fire when it comes to vaccines in general, and we’re playing with nuclear weapons when it comes to this vaccine. Do you have any idea of the potential long-term (longer than 3 months) side effects of these covid vaccines? Do you have some special insight into what they can do beyond the extremely limited trials?
I don’t understand the blind faith, I cannot fathom how perfectly healthy individuals will opt to take a medical experiment, with new technology, but think that their extremely complex and capable immune systems will fare worse. Some people really do worship technology evidently.
And you do know that pathogenic priming is a real thing, right?
This article displays a real problem we have when thinking about this virus. People – like the author – can’t except as scientific any explanation for the virus behaviour that doesn’t involve human behaviour. Hence the vaccine has saved lives and whatever was happening already to cases before the lockdown or the existence of similar outcomes in nations/jurisdictions with minimal vaccine role out (South Africa) or light lockdown (Sweden, Florida) is ignored. It’s terrific that we have vaccines so soon, a real feat of engineering (regardless of your view of them), but ignoring natural causes we have no control over is not scientific. It also leads to the second problem – those obsessed with the virus will continue to be unapologetic in their brutalisation of their fellow man in suppression of it – safe in their belief it will work and be all that matters (like Tom here).
We’re never going to get out of this with out a change in attitude. It’s not acceptable to treat humanity like variables in an experiment to control a virus and mold all of human life around that aim.
Releasing everything slowly and once at a time is fine – if you were working with inanimate objects in a laboratory. This glacial pace of opening things up is callous when applied to human societies – regardless of what the science says. It’s also not true that there would be anything inevitable about locking down again if we go too fast and cases surge. It’s worth remembering, nothing we have done since March is ‘part of the script’ for dealing with these things and the scientific basis for these is almost as deficient as the moral case. Lockdown was a political choice, not a necessity based on prior pandemic preparation.
If we want to spare the blushes of a failing bureaucracy and the incompetents that run it(protect our NHS), then maybe we use a period of low infections to do something more constructive around increasing capacity and preventing hospital transmission, rather than lock everyone away.
Very well put. Mathematical modellers are not scientists, they are technocratic soothsayers. Their callous immorality and insoucient inhumanity has led to the dehumanisation of society under the guise of saving life.
My god ‘technocratic soothsayers’ , callous immorality’ ‘dehumanisation of society ‘. A bit overboard . If anything, we have become more ‘human’ and caring over the last year, showing care and appreciation for each other and those who work in the NHS and care homes
I’m not sure what world you’ve been living in
Really? My daughter had a seizure by the side of the road recently and many cars drove by pretending not to notice.
I see children fearful of mere people and the avoidance of the usual pleasantries that used to be part of every day life.
Au contraire. Wearing masks & supporting lockdown is supremely selfish. This new normal will destroy tens of millions of lives in Canada and the UK. Smug, virtue-signalling mask-wearing social-distancers are self-centred, short-sighted, and oblivious to the bigger picture and to the fate of all those in travel and entertainment, and oblivious to the fate of entire countries who depend on tourism.
And as more than one scientist has remarked: Modelling is the poorest form of science. Neither life, or anything in this universe can be reduced to the mere material, let alone ever be understood by number-crunching.
Science can only ever understand what it can measure, and so scientists, mere mortals, must choose what they measure, or what they are allowed or capable of measuring, and decide how it will be measured – what goes into the counting.
How could they ever get it wrong?
Brilliantly said. This article is nothing more than an extension of a narrative based on myth – that asymptomatic ‘cases’ are somehow relevant, and that the virus affects many people at all (1000 X worse for old v. sick people). It’s sobering to see how little correlation there is between blanket lockdowns and virus movement – even worse, it’s counter intuitive. The damage (death/illness from all causes/etc.) from lockdowns far outweighs the so-called good (? what ‘good’?). The NHS has been so run down for so long that it’s not fit for purpose (we knew that well before all this), and you are right, maybe we should fix it, systemically (and not privatise it by stealth, which we are doing). And how about preparing a few fever hospitals for future (and potentially) real threats. These policies have been a disaster and this kind of passive journalism adds more fat to the thickness of it all.
Funny, each lockdown is followed by a drop in cases. Funny how that happens across the world – regardless of whether they have, in your words a rundown NHS.
Actually, on at least two occasions in this country lockdown was preceded by a drop in cases.
This should come as no surprise when looking at the control groups of jurisdictions that had light/no lockdown and similar trajectories.
More accurately, each lockdown has been preceeded by a drop in cases; and countries who have not locked down have had similar viral curves to those that did, irrespective of the quality of their healthcare systems.
The lockdown in Wales was followed by an increase in cases. In fact, Merthyr Tydfyl became the most infected place in the UK. Not surprising when you lock people in their homes all day when they could be outside, where the virus doesn’t spread, getting vitamin D and fresh air.
The Welsh firebreak lockdown failure is just a sign that they needed more lockdown, earlier and for longer. That’s the only possible conclusion.
Don’t forget “and harder”.
I think Lockdowns are so successful that we could use them to cure cancer and heart disease, a utopia led by modellers (guesswork).
Indeed, frankly I even think letting people out to get food has been a grave indulgence – sure we could have had a few million starvations, but think of the lower Covid rates.
Oh, phew! I see your sarcasm now…..your first comment was a little off-putting LOL. The intended tone went right over my head, and that of others given the downvotes ; )
People have said such preposterous things about this issue, in earnest, that it’s getting more and more difficult to detect sarcasm. My favourites are the “Covid Karens” – not always female, mind you – who insist that the failure of every lockdown is due to some people not “following the rules” and that if 100 percent of us would just submit to the tyranny, all would be well.
And because people were wearing only one mask, rather than two or three.
Mass hysteria appears increasingly to be at work and the insanity it brews.
I think one mask is acceptable, if you live alone on a remote Island and keep your windows shut. Obviously if you phone someone you should wear 2 masks, and 3 if it’s a video call.
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There are over 30 peer reviewed papers by eminent experts (not modellers or journalists) that prove conclusively that Lockdowns have no effect on mortality.
And how do they prove conclusively that a reduction in human to human transmission opportunities has no impact on transmission and therefore mortality?
Victoria had a highly successful lockdown and still 3 to 1 Covid to Seasonal Influenza deaths.
There is a core inner group who die whatever you do. In the West with obese and elderly frail populations the only major country with a sizeable population that has not ended up with a 3 to 1 death rate is Germany and there is a question there about counting methods not being symmetrical. I called 120,000 deaths six months ago and here we are its not clever its just a three times ratio. The other outlier is the US with 10 times the death rate but with 100,000,000 obese I am surprised its not more than 500,000.
Links please
South Africa has just had a second wave which plummeted down with no hard lockdown. I hate to use the phrase follow the science, so I will say follow the facts and the data. It is all out there.
Brilliant Lesley their LD is Laissez faire to say the least and they were supposed to be dealing with the highly contagious variant. It strikes me that whilst in laboratory conditions some of these variants are more sticky and capable of cellular attachment the reality is they do not defeat the same cautious approach that many people take. Otherwise how do the facts square up with both variants case numbers in England and SA plummeting and in the latter its nothing to do with a hard lockdown or in the former highly observant society.
Is it even possible to talk about waves when the PCR test is so flawed? When limits are put on PCR cycles all of a sudden there are no cases.
Well naturally lockdowns lead to “a drop in cases”, of all kinds of transmissible illness; I haven’t had even a mild cold in over a year because I’ve gone almost nowhere (no travel, everything I like doing – singing in my choir, going to concerts, volunteering, taking community centre art classes – not happening) and have been mostly working from home, but that doesn’t necessarily mean lockdowns are a good thing. I don’t miss getting colds, they’re nasty, but they don’t kill me, and nor does COVID-19 kill the overwhelming majority of people who get it. It seems apparent that many people who “get” it don’t get sick at all. Isolating ourselves from each other is bad for us in the long run, bad for our immune systems and bad for us psychologically. And there’s still no evidence that any of these lockdowns made a difference in the death rate from COVID-19. A similar or lower death rate in places that had few or no lockdowns or restrictions suggests they were completely futile, but caused – and are still causing – long term damage, not just to the economy, which can recover, but to human communities and individual lives.
Quite right Lock down no lock down cases high, case low 800 excess deaths at home a week since May with only 2% Sars CoV 2 related thats how successful the strategy is. Thats before we get onto the other disastrous consequences.
Well said
ive tried hard to discern your point but other than that your don’t like scientists and lockdowns I can’t see what it is unless your are saying it’s not morally acceptable for politicians to do what they can to protect the health and lives of people?
Are the health and lives of people and the suppression of the virus necessarily the same thing? At what point does doing whatever necessary to achieve the latter cause unreasonable damage itself to the former? If the suppression of a virus must always take primacy in our considerations, why has it never done so before march 2020? Were we all just callous and stupid back then?
I actually have great admiration for scientists (less so for journalists) and a great hope that the scientific method will improve all our lives for a long time to come. Unfortunately, the science that supports lockdown risks ending that hope. A science that perpetuates dystopia is regressive and may as well be an instruction to go back to medieval times.
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What are your thoughts on people being injected with a highly experimental vaccine with possibly lethal side-effects?
Don’t you think that you might be repeating a bit of anti vaxers scaremongering?
How is it scaremongering when no one knows the long-term results of these injections, that are not “vaccines” according to the medical definition of such? I would call that common sense evaluation. It is the government propaganda machine that is scaring people into getting the “vaccine” for something that is equivalent to the flu (which also kills some people). According to the manufacturers it doesn’t guarantee being infected, re-infected or stop transmission; so what’s the point?
Well said. It is astonishing how many people know the facts and yet still we are pushed along by hysterical vaccine-obsessed governments and so-called medical and scientific experts.
What are we missing? Is Covid manmade and they know potentially disastrous outcomes? Something is not right.
Scaremongering? That is rather ripe coming from the lockdowners.
More than one science-medical expert has said the same thing.
Professor Dolores Cahill, Professor of Translational Research and Molecular genetics, School of Medicine, University College Dublin, may be a controversial figure but she has the ‘street cred’ to comment on the issue and others have said the same.
Professor Dolores Cahill, speaking about RNA vaccines
“I suppose there are potentially three adverse reactions (from messenger RNA vaccines—MODERNA, PFIZER).
Beginning with anaphylaxis (severe, potentially life-threatening allergic reaction) in the first week. Therefore, these vaccines shouldn’t be given in the 2nd dose.
Then the real adverse events will happen, against whatever is the real mRNA in the vaccines, and when the person vaccinated comes across (this coronavirus) sometime later …. what happened in the animal studies, 20% or 50% or 100% of the animals died!”
Dolores Cahill is, to put it politely, a maverick:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ucd-professor-asked-to-resign-from-eu-committee-over-covid-19-claims-1.4277698
I am happier trusting the US and UK regulators on the matter of vaccine safety than a bunch of conspiratorial vaccine deniers. Perhaps I am a foolish stooge; I’m taking the vaccine so we will see.
No one is forcing you to take the vaccine. Please do not as you worry that you might drop dead. (Although of course covid itself is harmless…)
Private businesses and employers will increasingly make their own decisions on whether to require people on their premises to have been vaccinated. I have no problem with that.
There are global studies following people post covid infection which show it is extremely unlikely to get reinfection. They are at around the 9 month stage. Israel is not vaccinating people currently who were infected on the basis of this research. T cell immunity appears to be involved which confers at least medium term protection. Natural immunity also is better at dealing with variants.
Questions are critical to good science and safe medicine.
We don’t like people lying to us. Trying to profit off us like did in 2009 with the swine flu. They nearly did it that time. It died in summer but they were still pushing cases with the PCR tests. It just didn’t take.
Pretty sure that was a test run to prove out the main pillars for COVID-19.
“Morally acceptable” or not, things politicians do rarely have any positive outcome. From my own personal point of view, the only action governments have any business doing in a situation like this is to halt international travel and to close the borders, or at least subject them to stringent controls, letting in people only who have citizenship or permanent residency status, because their first responsibility is to their own citizens, not to the convenience of international travelers or potential immigrants or asylum seekers. The UK government did none of these things, at the beginning of the pandemic. How does it make sense, to close down businesses and virtually lock people in their homes, while thousands of people are still entering the country every single day?
The government’s response to border quarantine was far too slow and I don’t think they are doing enough still. But the virus is now widespread in the UK and far outstrips the introduction of new virus from outside, so you can hardly ignore the internal circulation.
The UK Pandemic Preparedness Strategy never envisaged closing borders because “the UK generally has a high level of international connectivity…” and “…modelling suggests that imposing a 90% restriction on all air travel to the UK at the point a pandemic emerges would only delay the peak of a pandemic wave by one to two weeks. Even a 99.9% travel restriction might delay a pandemic wave by only two months”. The same would logically apply to variants.
Name me one MD/ medical officer who is competent to assess the long and medium term effects on mortality and morbidity of destroying the livelihoods of tens of millions and of forcing retail and transit employees and others into fuggy facemasks for entire day-long shifts. These stupid measures do nothing but postpone for a short while exposure to the virus.
Spot on, David. The focus has changed over the past year.
Initially, we were told that we would shoot for “herd immunity”. Then, as that fraud, Ferguson admitted, the SAGE crew saw Italy get away with a Chinese-style Social Control experiment and realised that they might just get away with it in the UK. Unfortunately, they did, and by the brilliant move of putting the salaried people on 80% pay indefinitely, they got huge buy-in from the UK population who were quite happy to stay at home binge-watching Netflix and getting pissed. The “I’m okay, Jack” mentality took over and it was easy to ignore the 3 to 3.5 million who were unlawfully told to close their businesses and given no compensation in return.
It started with a 2 to 3 week period of quarantining the entire population (minus the “essential workers” of course, hence nullifying the quarantine) to “flatten the curve and save the NHS”. Then it gradually became a grand experiment. From a position of accepting that there was risk and that some people would die, we went to the “whatever it takes” position where no deaths at all were acceptable.
Except that, of course, the lockdown itself generated excess deaths that were not caused by the virus. Two out of every five, according to the government. So, 40 000+ who died because of the lockdown.
Now, we’re told that if we don’t do the millimeter-by-millimeter reduction of restrictions, we’ll kill another 50 000 people. Again, Covid-19 deaths are unacceptable, but it’s okay to ensure that the entire population will have their lives shortened because of this, and the estimate from SAGE is an additional 500 000 deaths in the years to come. All because of the lockdown. But they won’t be counted as “Covid-19 deaths” so that’s all okay.
The government is supposed to weigh up the Scientific advice and balance that with the other factors, such as the cost in terms of mental health, increased use of alcohol and other drugs, the destruction of businesses and the resultant unemployment and homelessness. So far, its claimed that 7000 households have been made homeless because of the lockdown. How many will that be once the full effects kick in? It’s well known that poverty, and especially, homelessness, have a hugely negative effect on health.
The single-issue focus on ONE virus, to the exclusion of all other diseases, all the economic effects, a callous disregard of the mental health of children and adults and total disregard of the health of the millions of people who have not received the care that they needed from the NHS means that the harm done by the virus has been amplified and displaced to the 50+ million people under 65 who were at virtually zero risk from the virus.
Has a cost/benefit analysis been done for continuing to quarantine the healthy? No risk assesment was done for ANY of the lockdown regulations.
Who authorised Johnson, Hancock, Whitty, Valance and the SAGE group to perform a huge social experiment on the people of Britain?
No cost benefit analysis has been done, possibly because it would not come out favourably for the Government. We have already spent more than double the annual budget of the NHS on fighting this virus and I’m not sure we’ve got value for money, particularly if you use NICE Quality Adjusted Life Years as a guide. Nonetheless, the spending, and all the other associated costs of lockdown, continue at an alarming rate. As you say, people were quite happy to get paid to stay at home binge-watching Netflix and getting pissed, but I’m sure once payback time comes we’ll struggle to find anyone who admits they were pro-lockdown.
To quote Dr John Lee: “you don’t improve the health of a country by making it poorer”.
It isn’t just Florida. Life outside the big cities in the USA haven’t changed much and most are back to normal. I live in a supposed “lockdown” state. It isn’t true. You can go to Ellensburg in Washington state and sit inside restaurants and bars and largely go on your way unmolested by the psychopathic big pharma totalitarians and their paid off government agents. You can even go into grocery stores without a mask! I was in a jam packed bar in Coeur D’Alene Idaho with people elbow to elbow at the bar and others playing pool. You can still get a haircut there without wearing a damn mask. You go into Seattle and Tacoma and it is a ghost town. You go into any store without a mask and people at first gasp and then yell at you. I live on the Kitsap Peninsula where it was in between at the worst but opening up now. At peak stupid there was only a couple establishments I didn’t have to wear a mask in (one of them turned into a speakeasy during our only full lockdown last Spring). Now I don’t wear a mask in the majority of bars and restaurants I go to. They are still wearing masks in the grocery stores here. I am not even sure any of this was real. The average age of death was over life expectancy. The had abandoned healthcare outside of covid and focused more on stopping virus spread than helping patients. The care in elderly homes appears to have been criminal. How many of these deaths would have been prevented if we didn’t shutdown our healthcare system and didn’t abandon our nursing home elderly? Are less people dying because we are starting to open up our healthcare system again? They are letting at least one family person into hospitals with the person being cared for now where I am at. This alone will improve health care. There is at least check on care and an advocate for the family member being treated again. How many people have they killed for poor care? I work with over 400 people and have two family run businesses I’m involved in. I come across a lot of people. I know a lot of people who tested positive for covid. In fact a younger couple and their baby all tested positive for covid. Wife and child had a light cough and low grade fever for 3 days and the father never had any symptoms. They all laugh about it now. Oh… the dreaded covid!!! I read one “study” that suggested most people die within the year once they’ve had covid. I guess this family only has 5 months to live now? LMAO. I ask the fear mongers what the average age of the deaths are and they tell me I’m a covid denier. This is the extent of the “science” as far as I can tell. We literally have all lost our minds. I’m not getting the vaccine. I’m not doing the health passport. In fact. For the rest of my life I’m just going to assume I’m being lied to by big pharma and the “experts”. I think I’ll be living a lot closer to the truth at that point. .
Amen. Unbelievable that they continue pushing flu vaccines year after year, knowing full well the real-world efficacy is 10-15% at best (due to obesity, diabetes, pre-existing conditions, poor diet, poor sleep, the fact that we know of 200+ variants of the flu with likely 1000s more out there and have zero clue as to which one will manifest strongest in the upcoming season, etc.). But ya know, Merck and GSK gotta eat I guess?
Flu vaccines have certainly reduced the rate of flu deaths, even if only by 10 or 15 percent. But there’s a theory that most of the people who have (supposedly) died of COVID were people who had their lives artificially extended by flu vaccines. Put another way, without the flu vaccines, they likely would have died of flu before 2020. It’s a brutally cold way of looking at it; obviously these were still people whose families mourned their loss greatly. But still, they were very elderly, frail, and already in very poor health. COVID-19, a disease for which there was no vaccine and to which they had no natural immunity, took advantage of a vacuum, a large population of very vulnerable people.
Or the Flu vaccine made them vulnerable. There have been studies showing that Flu vaccines predisposed people to other respiratory diseases.
Well, there is a theory, just a theory, that the many Italian elderly who died of Covid early last year all had, a few months earlier, a certain flu vaccine that was possibly contaminated with some coronavirus. Not sure where I read this. Could have been Cahill, but I think there was more than one.
Google Byram Bridle, Magic Talk Radio New Zealand, for an interview in which he discusses his concerns about the Covid-19 vaccines. Byram is a viral immunologist at the University of Guelph.
As C.J. Hopkins, an award-winning American playwright, novelist and political satirist based in Berlin, said:
The important thing at the moment is to defeat this common-flu-like pestilence that has no significant effect on age-adjusted death rates, and the mortality profile of which is more or less identical to the normal mortality profile, but which has nonetheless left the global corporatocracy no choice but to “lock down” the entire planet, plunge millions into desperate poverty, order everyone to wear medical-looking masks, unleash armed goon squads to raid people’s homes, and otherwise transform society into a pathologized-totalitarian nightmare.
And, of course, the only way to do that (i.e., save humanity from a flu-like bug) is to coercively vaccinate every single human being on the planet Earth!
OK, you’re probably thinking that doesn’t make much sense, this crusade to vaccinate the entire species against a relatively standard respiratory virus, but that’s just because you are still thinking critically.
You really need to stop thinking like that. As The New York Times just pointed out:
critical thinking isn’t helping.”
Given the rushed nature of these vaccines and genetic treatments, surely for the sake of humanity it would be wise to leave the children alone until enough time has passed to validate claims of safety?
Some medical experts have said adverse effects may not be seen for many months, if not a few years. If we get this wrong then at least the children should be kept safe.
If the health of otherwise young, healthy individuals is potentially at stake it would seem like a no-brainer, wouldn’t it?
The Sanofi Dengvaxia case in the Philippines, where the vaccine for Dengue Fever in healthier subjects was suspected in promoting a latter more deadly response in a not inconsiderable number of its recipients, should certainly act as a warning to those who seem so keen plough on regardless.
Young, healthy individuals do not die of COVID. So there is no reason for them to get the vaccine.
Definitely do not vaccinate children with this experimental agent. It is ludicrous to do so. We have no long term studies showing what this jab may do and not many short-term revelations either. This author is out to lunch on this article. Just sounds like more fear mongering to me.
America’s FrontLine Doctors are recommending against offering the vaccine to either children or women of child-bearing age.
Another article from Tom Chivers that is pro lockdown, without ever questioning it, or and here’s a crazy idea looking at real world facts.
Cases peaked prior to lockdown 3 by about a week (this is backed up by tested, admission and death data).
The well recorded facts that the correlation between lockdowns, cases and deaths is weak. Researching this and understanding it and where the value is, is key.
We also know from last year when cases began receding (again before lockdown) that huge crowds of peaceful rioting thugs did not cause any rise in cases. Nor the crowded beaches etc.
By some measures we’re the 3rd most locked down country in the world, we’ve been restricted for nearly a year. The result is in the top 5 death rates.
I suppose I’ve got to hand it to the UK lockdown marketing department, its a tough sell – but they’ve done a remarkable job.
I can’t help but think that focused protection of the known vulnerable would have saved 70%+ of the lives, for a lot less damage to society. And I still look grimly forward to finding out who signed off killing 20,000+ care home residents.
This discussion has now become a bit of an old chestnut. Everyone has a theory and a solution and all lack real knowledge. Mr Revealed, (who now has changed his name to TR, I suspect) comes in with a lot of pro-lockdown ‘facts’.
To criticise what you have written:
Yes, a lot of analysis is needed to look at the correlation between lockdown, cases and deaths.
The crowds of rioting people and beach-goers is an opinion which is colourful but not very meaningful.
We are in the top 5 death rates but we need to look at fitness of the population in general. Fitness for life has to be important for not dying.
“I can’t help but think……” is exactly that – thoughts.
Since the very first lockdown I have been against lockdown on principle. I have said this a lot to my family and now would not be invited around for tea, even if lockdown went away. I am fit, run about 30 miles a week (a 145lb weakling) and feel very strong so I don’t feel vulnerable. So, to be against lockdowns and to protect the vulnerable seems the natural thing to do.
There is a caveat coming. I’m not sure that the vulnerable can be protected, even if they want to be safe. During the first lockdown many people tried breaking into care homes to be with their mother/father – they thought that being close was more important – the younger people needed the support.
I have since seen older, heavier, people chatting as normal in supermarket queues as if there was no virus. I have seen man and wife dawdling around supermarkets and she says, “What do you fancy for tea tonight?” They stop and discuss it and lose all idea of who is around them. The point is that they have had this same discussion for the last 30 years or more.
At the beginning my wife was getting very close to people to talk, maybe a metre away, because this just felt normal. She even believed that family members were relatively safe because they were trusted whereas non-family could not be trusted – this is a sort of natural feeling which is in our genes.
So, in fact, I don’t believe it is possible to protect the vulnerable, which really brings us back to one question, “Is using a lockdown worth taking away the freedom of the younger generation and, if not, should the lives of hundreds of thousands of older people be sacrificed for those young people.?” I am still anti-lockdown but every time I go out I waiver.
I understand where you’re coming from. There’s also a couple of key points/admissions:
A huge proportion of the benefit of lockdown happens naturally – people don’t want to catch nasty viruses or pass them on, rules or no rules. A significant proportion of the economic damage of lockdown happens naturally – without lockdown the economy would have taken a big hit anyway.
I just don’t think we would be sacrificing 100,000s of older peoples lives with a more focused lockdown, we could be saving some. There’s just no evidence worldwide to back up lockdowns save huge numbers. Look at the also terribly unhealthy US, the wide difference in lockdowns doesn’t show in the death stats.
I’m also dissapointed though not suprised that the author is worried about protecting vaccine refuseniks. Nope sorry, if my own parents had refused vaccinations I’d still want my freedom back. People who have refused vaccination are frankly foolish, and should not hold others to ransom.
“I can’t help but think……” is exactly that – thoughts”. Well of course, because thoughts (hopefully based on data) are all we have. I’m not in a position to perform massive RCTs on lockdowns and focused protection. I suppose I could happily sit here and create a model (not that hard) – then like SAGE et al not really know a huge number of the variables to input, so come up with meaningless figures.
“The crowds of rioting people and beach-goers is an opinion which is colourful but not very meaningful.” Again we were told that this would cause massive outbreaks, yet it didn’t. SAGE and co seem to completely ignore any fact that doesn’t match their models.
We have all lived without lockdowns and health passports for all our lives. If the government and big pharma are going to go full scale totalitarian on us they better provide ample proof that what they are doing works and that the billionaire class isn’t profiting from our loss of freedoms. Pretty clear what is going on and what the real danger is from where I am sitting. Great times to be an oligarch.
Do we even know if they properly fed and kept the elderly well hydrated? God knows how the dementia patients were treated without their family members being allowed in to check on them. What happened is not OK.
Many will be familiar with business models (and Gates certainly is) where you sell more products just because they are defective. The scandal is the way the PTB have sabotaged other interventions (vitamins, zinc, HCQ, Ivermectin etc while sinking all our money into junk tech solutions – track and trace which doesn’t work and hit or miss vaccines). Vaccinating children who are mostly not at risk is immoral (but that won’t worry our politicians).
Or more to the point: sell fast before anyone notices the built-in faults. The classic “Hype Graph” comes to mind, where sales ramp up to start with, then decline, might recover a bit, then level off. Most industrialists, including the pharmaceutical trade, will be familiar with this economic effect.
Unfortunately the consequences of mass vaccination going wrong are much more frightening than the disease itself. Especially for the under 60s with no underlying health issues.
BTW unrecorded by the MSM the MHRA have listed 150 fatal reactions from about 5m doses of the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine as opposed to 173 from 7.5m doses of the Pfizer (Oxford AZ fatality rate about 20% higher). This is as distinct from the many thousands of deaths of elderly people dismissed as coincidental.
I can’t find any of these figures on the MHRA site. I can see that there have been 151 and 60 allergic reactions to vaccine ingredients, but none are reported as fatal. Fact checks on DW and on Full Fact can’t substantiate the stories circualting about deaths. Where is your information coming from?
Unfortunately, links tend not to be welcome here. This part one:
coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting
Should we vaccinate children? NO.
Should we make children wear masks? NO
Should we force social distancing on children NO.
Should we put the fear of death in innocent children, over a non-existent “deadly” virus? NO.
What is wrong with you people? Seriously?
it is much easier to condition people at a young age.
Yes, sadly Alex that is why. Let children develop an immune system and stop trying to interject with all these vaccines. Stopping some diseases while creating chronic disease and auto immune diseases is not better.
I teach kids and work with young special needs people and they are all unfortunately showing the effects of a year of relentless media brainwashing. COVID injects itself constantly into their conversations. They’re told to accept it as the reason their social lives have been basically halted, the reason they couldn’t see their friends or exchange gifts, candy, or cookies for Valentine’s Day, couldn’t go out trick or treating for Halloween, couldn’t have sleepovers, playdates, spontaneous socializing, Christmas parties, birthday parties, etc, the reason there were no visits to water parks or fairs or carnivals this past summer…but still, there are plenty of diversions available for them on their screens, 2021’s version of Brave New World’s Soma drug. But they know it’s an inadequate substitute for what they really need, which is physical freedom, the basic and fundamental right to explore their world and to encounter potential risks and dangers and to learn and grow from these experiences. They’ve all been taught to fear the world immensely and to accept that the adults in their lives know what’s best for them, and that some day, hopefully not too far in the future, everything will be “safe” again so they can have freedom again. But the world has never been safe, in the sense of being completely free of dangers. It never will be.
I agree, Kathy. It’s a travesty.
Children. Adults. Anyone seemingly healthy. God bless you
I agree; it’s crazy to even talk about vaccinating children against a disease almost none of them even get, let alone die from. Even apart from the potential risks of the vaccine, it’s a waste of resources. The vaccine should go to the ones who are vulnerable, like my elderly mother who has been stoically suffering semi-imprisonment for the past year, unable to do anything she loves and that makes her life worth living. Once they’re protected, life can get back to normal.
What we have witnessed in 2020 is the greatest crime ever committed on mankind, and I for one will not rest until every single one of these criminal medical mafia, (and evil) politicians are brought to justice.
The safety of these vaccines will NOT be known for at least another year or two. If the fears of deadly auto-immune disease are valid, then future generations will have been sacrificed on the altar of vaccine obsession.
When will we ever ‘know’ though? Why in a year or two? Perhaps whatever is bad in the vaccine will take 2 decades to kill people, perhaps instead it will affect your great, great, great grandchildren? Or perhaps all 10 million people who caught Covid will drop dead in 5 years time?
In France and Germany even large numbers of medics are refusing the AZ vaccine – with reports of illnesses caused by it. Meanwhile in the UK probably 15 million have had that vaccine, with no known serious side effects. The efficency rating so far is exceeding all expectations.
It’s kind of interesting to watch educated Europeans to act in idiotic xenophobia/nationalistic ways. It reminds us if nothing else that idiocy is universal. Perhaps the UK should have some small pride that when it comes to vaccines we’ve not only produced one and rolled them out fast – we as a people are also sensible enough to take them.
This is the reason why, under ordinary circumstances, vaccine approval takes several years. Long-term side effects are expected to emerge within a few years’ time and the only way to monitor for them and be certain is literal trial and error.
In France and Germany they are experiencing the nocebo effect.
I don’t know what it’s like in England, but in the US, the number of mandatory vaccines for children is already at three dozen or so. Contrast that to when I was a kid and the number was fewer than ten. We had the usual boosters: measles/mumps/rubella, and diptheria/tetanus/polio. Somehow we survived and we did not have the exotic allergies that are so prevalent today. Now, people want to add another shot? At what point does a child’s immune system have the chance to develop?
This is a virus, which means it is never ever going to go away. Just like the flu never will, or HIV, or the common cold. Ever. And we already know that covid is least harmful to the young. As the song said, leave them kids alone.
Are the US vaccinations actually mandatory or simply advised?
Parents and children are punished for not complying with schedules and in some States cannot go to school. That is close enough to mandatory, at least for the workers who have no other option but to get to work. They cannot home school.
Testing an experimental vaccine on children who are not even affected by the disease against which it protects them is wrong. I think that was established at Nuremberg, and people who did it were hanged.
Totally agree. Usual childhood vaccines that protect against diseases that harm or kill children are not mandatory so as a paediatrician, I will reject any move to make Covid 19 vaccine mandatory in a population that is not at risk.
As Katie Hopkins said in her excellent video yesterday, it’s not a roadmap, it’s a death march, especially for shop keepers and the hospitality industry.
Ha ha ha – We should all take notice of what Hopkins has to say, shouldn’t we….
Well I don’t see why not. She seems to talk sense on most issues, and her video yesterday was an entertaining impersonation of Boris.
Talking sense on most issues? Does this include calling migrants vermin and cockroaches. The woman is a nasty piece of work devoid of any compassion for anyone less fortunate than her.
I think we should. She has done some very hard hitting documentaries and many of her pronouncements are now staring us in the face. She warned USA about letting The Democrats in. She warned about Boris being pro amnesty for illegals. She also warned about three weeks to flatten the curve turning into Project Fear to vaccinate the population …last May…..
Your memory is faulty. It was never three weeks to flatten the curve, it was 12 weeks. Which turned out to be pretty accurate.
The three week period was the interval demanded, rightly, by Parliament before the measures had to be formally reviewed.
‘Katie Hopkins’ and ‘excellent’ is it even possible to have one with the other ! Terrible and largely ignorant woman
Tom I realise you are trying to trigger your readership with the teasing “just a thought- let’s vaccinate children” shtick. If I’m wrong please take a long hard look in the mirror.
I think he actually asked the question should we vaccinate children. To which I say, unless someone comes up with some well evidenced case to show that it would harm them, and if it would help in massively reducing the number of cases in adults , then yes we should
Thanks for your reply David. Let me be clear I am not against vaccination as I have taken all the vaccinations that were necessary and offered to me in my lifetime. My resistance to child vaccination is based on the fact that Covid 19 poses no threat to this age range and that although the millions of people already vaccinated have shown only minor reaction we cannot guarantee it’s long term safety yet. The point I would challenge you on strongly is that we should provide evidence that it is safe for children long term (which we can’t) rather than provide the negative that you demand which is it seems to do no harm (which we can’t). To insist children take any risk when covid19 does not harm them is immoral.
When ever, have we made children responsible for the health of adults?
Amen amen! I couldn’t agree more. Atrocious bit of ‘journalism’ in terms of integrity.
As it is children are part of the biggest medical experiment in human history – vaccination, and are the major labrats. If we are getting it wrong as more and more vaccinations are added to the list, we will have no-one to blame but ourselves. If enough humans survive the experiment.
Happily, you’re not in any way able to influence paediatric practice. You should be ashamed of that comment.
The article started well and then the last 3 paragraphs are flippant, probably to generate a response. I’m over 50 and will happily take the vaccine when it is offered to me. My children are of school age and have had all the ‘jabs’ including MMR. However, I can’t see the sense in vaccinating children against something that does them no harm. There have been 4 corona viruses circulating in humanity for hundreds of years. Our ancestors built up a natural immunity to those corona viruses. Our kids will build up a natural immunity to SARS-Covid-2 and pass that on to their children. Vaccines are good but are we getting a little bit carried away with our scientists being the masters of the universe? Could we in any way be holding back future generations ability to develop natural immunities and protect themselves? Do they become increasingly reliant on medical interventions as their own immune responses have been diminished?
What about the point that the more virus circulates the more likely a new mutation will evolve which is either more fatal or has a greater impact on children?
There is no reason to assume that’s likely, or any more likely than another type of corona virus that has been circulating amongst the young and healthy population for decades suddenly mutating into something far more dangerous. Viruses naturally mutate all the time, but how often does a benign one mutate into a deadly one? Has it ever happened?
Humans are subjected to trillions of viruses every day. They are all around us. They are part of our normal biological function. Anyone who thinks a vaccine or so can counter that is delusional. Anyone who thinks viruses should be targeted and wiped out is insane.
The virus has the opportunity to mutate a lot when the host is poorly and can’t fight it off. That is it has a host for weeks rather than the usual week. I therefore think we should be using the vaccine for all vulnerable people round the world rather than for first world fit people.
Yes Rob exactly. Natural immunity following infection is much better at fighting variants. I worry that the vaccination frenzy will weaken the herd for the future
Adding to the general pile on here, this article makes neither acknowledgement or allowance for the fact that SARS-CoV2 is a virus. The writer seems to think its some demoniacal phenomena in the same way people saw the black death in the middle ages. As a virus it can only behave like a virus. If it has a CFR over 50% it will become extinct very quickly. It appears to have a CFR of about 1%, so a very bad flu but not H5N1. So it will become a successful virus in evolutionary terms and will survive to become an archeovirus in time. People with sever risk factors – age, compromised immunity etc will continue to die from SARS-CoV2 as they do from HKU1. I accept the manufactured panic was a good way to hide the overdue recession/adjustment without giving Occupy/BLM/Ecoloons etc cause to riot against capitalism. However i think the authorities, and their cheerleaders like Chivers, have taken this way too far.
If it’s ok, I’d like to either give you a whole upvote for the first half of that, or half a vote for the whole thing.
No. If you support vaccinating children, Chivers, with vaccines whose long term effects are unknown, first put your house and life savings into a trust, and your income, and future income, and pledge them in case a minority of children – let alone a higher proportion – have serious long term side effects.
There is no other cover for them.
This plan, which you support, is based on “modelling” whic assumes the virus is not seasonal.
What is your response to that?
To what degree is natural immunity accounted for in the models?
How long does immunity last from vaccines?
How long does natural immunity last on current evidence, see the last summary in Cell?
Do you have any conflicts of interest, Chivers?
We have no idea if the vaccines are AmAziNGLy SaFe because they have not been tested for long-term side effects or the effects female fertility.
If one is old and/or has significant co-morbidity factors then factoring in the fatality rates of Covid-19 for their cohort it will likely be that the risks of the vaccine are less for them than the risks of the virus. For anyone under 50/60 with no health issues and who is not obese, the opposite is true.
The NHS is borderline worthless. I have never had a satisfactory experience using its “services”. The one time in my life I actually needed a medical test (an ultrasound – not even anything major) the waiting list was so long I ended up paying for it privately. I am fortunate that I had the money to do so, unlike many others. If it had been run properly and those in government were in any way competent, ensuring it was ready for an event like this and that planning was there for it to scale up when needed would have been in place already. It needs to be torn down and reformed from the ground up.
And yes, I am more than willing to give up the right to treatment by this tarnished golden calf organization due to my opinions – just as soon as I am issued a cheque for the full amount of what I have paid into it via taxation.
Everyone seems to be pushing this untested vaccine as the panacea to freedom. Helloooooo we lost our freedom last February when this scam was turned into Globalist Project Fear to bring Trump down.
When will a decent journalist starting asking about the Care Home scandal. The job losses and the lack of new startup businesses. All coming down the road as the next year unfolds. Not to mention the huge death toll from illnesses ignored over the last year.
The next round of lockdowns, and they will come, will be to hide the deaths from the second dose vaccines, the unprecedented number of cancer and related illnesses hitting the funeral parlours, not to mention the suicides from those businesses unable to pay furlough back AND pay salaries.
People are being primed with the first pathogen. Some have succumbed but the majority will find next winter will be the cliff hanger. Not one sensible journalist is asking searching questions.
I agree Anjela. The mainstream media must be owned by big pharma, government etc because they aren’t asking some very obvious questions. This experimental jab is just that and the human population largely are guinea pigs. Just wait until next year when the virus speaks up again; then the consequences will be better known.
And vaccine death and injury will be blamed on Covid. We already see that where people with co-morbidities died it was blamed on Covid, now, if they die after being vaccinated, it is blamed on co-morbidities. Neat trick. How many will fall for it.
Little has angered me recently more than this article. I’m a senior consultant Paediatrician and I abhor the throwaway comment that it’s ‘safe’ for children to be vaccinated to make it even safer for adults. Many adults die of Covid 19 because they have come to the end of their natural life. Their age is not the only factor here but how lucky they have been in life with health, their genes and sometimes how carefully (or lack thereof) they have looked after their health. Children are not at risk from this virus and I do NOT believe that they are wandering around symptomless but pouring out virus particles to a hapless adult population. A year in a child’s life feels like forever and their social , emotional and learning opportunities have been utterly decimated. I see desperate children every day, the commonest cause of death aged 10-19 is suicide and my patients’ lives have been dismissed as irrelevant in the search to rid a population of a virus which will always be with us.
A revolting end to a pointless article. I’m so angry.
I wish I could give you ten upticks Jo. Thank you for your comment.
Well said. We’re being lied to on a colossal scale, but these media lickspittles will eventually get their comeuppance.
My question is, why do so few medical professionals speak the truths you cite? Some do and are mocked and removed from online access.
We need medical professionals to stand up and speak out against the insanely hysterical response to a virus which is no threat to the vast majority and to raise valid concerns about experimental vaccines being pushed/forced on everyone.
It beggars belief that medical professionals can go along with this idea of using a poorly tested, potentially life and health-destroying vaccine or genetic treatment against a virus which is no risk to 99.9% of people.
Your voice is better than none but we need more.
I completely agree. I know one of the Sage members as I studied with him. Some months ago, I asked some very pointed questions and he obfuscated, skirting away from the truth. I wasn’t going to let him get away with that so I drilled down and in the end, he agreed with me. I have no idea how he sleeps at night.
Athena there have been drs who have spoken out. Some lost their jobs. One eminent dr of respiratory disease was arrested and detained for 6 days. In a European country! Just heard him speak. I will find the link if anyone asks.
Thank you Jo. My exact sentiments. I can’t believe people want to use an experimental vaccine on children when at the very least it has no benefits for them
It’s not baffling that it is “irreversible”, it is a sign that finally the penny has dropped with certain key players in government that actually, the country and the world has to get on with things and suck up whatever the health impacts of further potential COVID outbreaks are, simply to avoid becoming a failed state and/or incurring worse health and economic outcomes. Even Hancock has been quoted recently as saying that next winter, COVID will be an endemic respiratory virus. That doesn’t mean no-one catches it and no-one dies from (or even with) it, but it does mean the death rate is back within its normal (ie, not statistically significantly different from the average) range. It could also be a sign that government has realised that the ridiculous charade the world has been playing for the last year has had next to no effect on transmission/outbreak/reductions in infections, and it has finally found a way it thinks it can sell the de-escalation plan to the general public without committing political suicide.
The next thing to come up is the renewal of the legislation in a month’s time. Which could be interesting.
Globalist capo di tutti capi, CEO BlackRock Inc & Agenda Contributor, World Economic Forum, Larry Fink recently spoke of the holy trinity of “Covid, Climate, Racial Justice: the three great issues of our time”.
In other words media / officialdom are bought and paid for. Covid truth tellers such as Reiner Fuellmich, Robert Kennedy Jr, Dr Mike Yeadon censored from public discourse entirely.
So-called media ‘sceptics’ are lying by omission, maintaining the pretence that restrictions are a disproportionate response to a ‘pandemic’. Akin to those who used to be condemned as “useful idiots” serving interests they ostensibly oppose.
Fuellmich calls Covid “organised crime”. His detailed allegations implicating Media/Tech/Pharma plutocrats and their lackeys, like this author and this site, citing official figures contradicting their own propaganda, cannot be rebutted and must be regarded as noises off: discredited as “anti-vax” “conspiracy theories” and so on.
But the facts are in the public domain. The network of scientists, lawyers and other professionals is gathering strength as official lies are exposed. Whatever resources big tech and media cartels muster they can’t suppress the truth. It’s only a matter of time before the tide turns.
UK government agency MRHA put out a tender months ago for AI software to handle ADR (adverse reactions) to a vaccine. Whistleblower footage from care homes is now emerging showing not only the reactions of victims but of staff forcing the vaccine on their patients. Apparently they’re on commission per vaccination. Just like a VAR (Value Added Reseller) selling Microsoft products.
They’re even resorting to telesales. I took a call last week inviting me to book my “high priority” vaccine appointment. When I said “no thank you”, she replied that “we all need to be vaccinated to get out of lockdown”. Look forward to UnHerd article about Nuremberg Code on voluntary consent. Not.
it’s the holy trinity of something, but not anything useful to regular folks. In its own way, each of those “problems” intentionally fosters division.
“Covid truth tellers such as Reiner Fuellmich, Robert Kennedy Jr, Dr Mike Yeadon”. Lol – these people are lying grifters, charlatans, opportunists and narcissists. Yeadon in particular has not been “censured”; he has chosen to desist from his increasingly ridiculous tweeting and delete his social media accounts after becoming very embarassed by some of his earlier narratives on other subjects. Just before departing, he lied about this too – claimed he was hacked. By time travellers it seems. I saw an episode of Star Trek with a similar plot and maybe he should write for the next series of it. Fuellmich is just out to find some litigation angle out of which to make a buck. Kennedy is spokesman for “Childrens Health” (sic) – nuff said.
The so-called Nuremberg Code btw, though it is far from applicable here and is thus irrelevant, is a theoretical construct which has not been incorporated into the legislative system of any country of which I am aware.
Your post is exactly what you accuse the truth-tellers of doing. The truth is obviously not what we’re being sold by a pack of liars. Since when do we trust the people that benefit from perpetrating a crime? It’s clear what’s going on, and it’s not that the people you mentioned are risking their careers, future, and perhaps lives to be “grifters, charlatans, opportunists and narcissists” peddling lies. No, they’re speaking the truth, and you’re participating in their demonization. But this game is close to being over. Many of us, and increasingly more of us, are awake to the corruption rampant at high levels of society in this world. Let me tell you something: you will be taken down, you will not hide the truth, you will not perpetrate your diabolical insanity on the world. You will fail.
If someone had given Tom Chivers a dangerously rushed vaccine with no understanding of the possible side-effects when he was an infant, maybe he wouldn’t be around to day to write such drivel
So many good rebuttals to Mr. Chivers cold blooded analysis, I’ll only add this: What’s being called a vaccine is not a vaccine. It’s a wholly new – and largely untested – shot that involves changing RNA messaging.
When I pulled the foil off my yogurt this morning, it contained the reassuring message: Made w/milk from non-GMO fed cows. Ah, if only we were cows and not humans being genetically modified by this so called vaccine.
I’ll emphasize that this thing – in the very unlikely event that it end up reducing harm from the Covid-19 plague – ought not be given any child. Why? Because children are not getting sick w/Covid (they’ve been exposed to lots of other Covid viruses and have built up immunity) and so, they cannot spread what they do not have. And while we’re at, toss the magical masks .. and w/it a potent virtue symbol, which is entirely ineffective at preventing anything but proper respiration and intake of fresh air.
The reason children aren’t included is because the vaccine trials on children have not yet completed. As with all medicines, it is considered highly ethically unsound to test on children at low risk until safety is proven on a higher risk adult group. The trials on children are currently underway, and so would be very strange if the government were to put dates on vaccinating children when we don’t know when this will be possible. Also, since the evidence seems to indicate that young children are much less likely to spread the disease even without a vaccine, it seems we should get around to this once we have the trial data to show that vaccinating children is necessary, safe and effective.
Thank you!
“ The vaccines are amazingly safe in adults,…..”
I genuinely hope that comment doesn’t come back to bite you. Safe vs amazingly safe? Hmmm, what is the difference?
Can you let these people know?
https://www.openvaers.com/
Vaccinating children to protect adults is not acceptable.
So disappointing to see the government propaganda line so heartily pushed here without an iota of inspection of the data (put out by the ONS).
How can you talk of vaccine success? The “vaccine” (It is not a vaccine by pre-covid definition of the word) experiment is NOT over according to the manufacturers, who say they need till 2023 to be able to evaluate the results.
The overall death rate for 2020 is within the 5 year average. The excess deaths appear AFTER lockdown (probably from those that could not get treatment) and is not significantly different than a “normal” flu year. The PCR is unreliable and gives false results and was not intended for diagnosis of infections.
The “covid” will come again next winter just like the flu. There is no end to the invention of new mutations that require yet another vaccine. We do not need this vaccine. When you reach the end of your body’s life span it will be in a weakened state. Your immune system will succumb to a virus or infection, that is the natural ending of a body.
It is mostly the elderly that are affected by this flu-like virus, the same as it is every year, only this time it has been monetized to the hilt and has justified (wrongly) the totalitarian health dictats from the government and a loss of human rights. This will only get worse if it is not resisted.
The more the government narrative is validated by articles like this, the easier it becomes for the hoodwinking to continue.
Boris’s road out of lockdown is most certainly not sensible and my heart sank when I heard more decisions had been made based on (unpublished and no doubt un-peer reviewed) modelling from Imperial College which, according to the BBC at least, does not even take into account the seasonal effect (i.e. reduction post-winter) in respiratory illnesses. All the data shows that the vaccination programme is having a very positive impact and what always gets forgotten is that probably at least 30% of the population have had the virus and there are several studies showing immunity lasts for many months. Put all that in the mix and taking an overall view of public health and well being (not a narrow one based on one disease) we should be opening up society much more quickly.
In the above context vaccinating children is a sideshow and irrelevance. The number of people under 18 who have died or become seriously ill is thankfully very small. Sure they may contribute to transmission but given we have already vaccinated enough people to reduce significantly the impact on the NHS (which after all was allegedly the point of lockdown in the first place) vaccinating children will have little impact and certainly should not distract from ensuring we have vaccinated all the vulnerable groups and progressed with the programme of second doses.
There seems to be an assumption that we have a limitless supply of susceptible people. This thinking probably grew from assumptions a year ago that not one person had any natural defence. Both assumptions, as with many assumptions, are wrong.
In answer to the headline: No.
We can’t expect the vaccine to be entirely successful, he said, because even if it’s 80% effective, we’re only vaccinating 80% of the population – adults – and 80% of 80% is only about 65%.
Completely ignores the ~30% of the population that have infected/recovered immunity or natural/cross immunity.
All while ignoring the fact that children don’t get sick w/Covid.
Typical conformity with the Gov’t line from Chivers – the Telegraph was more illuminating on Saturday when it published a piece by Prof David Livermore. His advice was to come out of lockdown swiftly: the vulnerable have been vaccinated and the virus needs to pass through the population when their defences are in good shape in Spring and Summer. Continued lockdown forces the virus to mutate, eventually it will get around the vaccines or lead to a more deadly version.
Oh and of course we shouldn’t mess up our children further by vaccinating then. Young immune systems are up to the job of dealing with coronaviruses. It has also been demonstrated to Devi Sridhar’s satisfaction that primary school age children (Norway) do not contribute to spread of infection.
Of course, it’s not about people’s health. That was pretty clear about a year ago from where I’m sitting.
Wouldn’t it be a good idea for Unherd to totally ignore TC, with his utter nonsensical strategy which is in fact a zero-covid-derivation. I wonder if he has children and if so I pity them.
The simple fact is that people, and by that I mean those most vulnerable to covid, can’t die twice and hence the natural, gradual slowdown in death rates.
Given its ubiquity, the disease is unlikely to ever disappear and flame out completely and will become endemic, much like its cousin, flu, picking off most of its most vulnerable, hapless victims in the winter months.
In terms of those who we’ve neglected over the last year, instead throwing seemingly anything and everything we’ve got at fighting covid and ‘saving the NHS’ in the process, given that the precedent has now been set, should we now expect the many, many liberated millions fully expected to deluge our newly ‘saved’, severely depleted healthcare system, now with nothing like the previously healthy economy and taxbase to support it, to pretend that they’re really not that ill with a view to doing much the same thing over again?
Did you not see that last week some children in Oxford were given the Oxford Astrazenica vaccine as part of a formal trial. If you’re going to write you need to keep up.
Johnson and therefore the entire country is a victim of him being persuaded into a 3 week lockdown he never wanted. There’s no escape now, it will ruin us.
I am a 66 year old man, with heart disease. I had a triple heart bypass 5 years ago and a minor stroke 15 months ago. Therefore theoretically classed as a vulnerable person.
But I would never ask or expect my children or grandchildren to be vaccinated to protect grandma and grandad. I ‘ve lived my life and when my time is up that’s it.
We were all given immune systems developed over millions of years and we must all do our best to protect our own immune system. Eat healthily, take some outdoor exercise regularly, perhaps take some supplements, C, D , perhaps zinc.
And if we look after our immune system it will look after us. Be extremely careful what you allow to bypass that immune system. Which is exactly what a vaccine does.
We all know people of have had the vaccine. Most are ok with some mild discomfort. But that is for now. Some effects may not be known for a while. Like the vaccine for the Sars 1 virus after which many children around Europe developed Narcolepsy.
Our children are precious and we must look after them at all costs. There is a lot of evil in this world.
Now I would like to talk about the virus. It’s been ravaging for year now. But just think for a moment, really think and consider. Aside from on the TV and in the newspapers do you see any signs of a pandemic as you go about your daily business. In the streets, in the supermarkets etc.
I go walking 2 or 3 hours every day. I’ve never seen any signs of anyone been distressed, coughing and spluttering, seemingly in difficulty. Certainly nothing like the early scenes from Wuhan where people were laying in the streets. How real was that? Do you trust the CCP.?
An example of distressed people in the street. About 15 years ago when I was a much younger man working in Holland I caught a serious bout of flu. I had to walk from the railway station to my apartment , a distance of 1 kilometer , with my holdall. On that short journey I literally had to keep stopping every few meters, putting my bag down and holding onto the street railings to support myself while I was coughing and drying my eyes. I’ve seen nothing vaguely resembling that anywhere over the past year.
One of the leaders of the Hamish people was asked why the people did not fear the virus or wear face masks. He replied ‘because they did not have TV or read newspapers’.
The Lockdowns are not about stemming the virus. Ivor Cummins has proved conclusively many times that whatever the lockdown measures implemented or released, it has absolutely no impact on the direction or shape of the curve. None at all. Same all over the world. Check out all his great research by searching for Ivor Cummins Viral Issue, and watch any of his podcasts. He’s been proving this stuff since last September.
No, the Lockdowns are about crashing the economies so they can bring in ‘The Great Reset’. You may even have read about that in the mainstream news. Where they say something like, ‘some nut jobs think this is just about bringing in the Great Reset. But that’s just a Conspiracy Theory’.
That’s what they do. They know some people will learn the truth and try to spread it. They cannot hide it, so they label it a Conspiracy Theory. And the sheeple, they say ‘oh I heard that one but its just a Conspiracy Theory, and they dismiss it and get on with their lives, locked down to save the NHS.
Or they fact check it , and label it false or fake news. And the sheeple , they say. ‘I heard that but its fake news’. Ask yourself, who checks the fact checkers, and more importantly who owns them.
See their tricks work a treat every time. Because education has been so dumbed down that no-one has the ability to think for themselves anymore. And many don’t care because they are so comfortable in their lives , for now! Till the economy is so broken the Government can no longer pay our pensions and your benefits.
You can find out about The Great Reset many places round the internet. But one good place to find it is on Dr Mercolas website. Mercola full stop com. Ignore any warnings from Wikipedia that Dr Mercola is a quack doctor who’s been totally discredited, or any warning that visiting his website may infect your computer with a virus. That’s more tricks they use to keep you away from learning the truth.
Those that would censor own Wikipedia. Recently they changed the definition of ‘Herd Immunity’ from , ‘when enough people have immunity to a virus to prevent it spreading’ to ‘when enough people have been vaccinated against a virus to prevent it spreading’ or roughly that. Scary stuff hey?
Once enough people know the truth they can no longer maintain the lie. But the grown ups in the UK are some of the sleepiest in the world and have been asleep on their own watch. But you must all begin to wake up before it is too late. For the sake of your children and grandchildren. Us oldies, we’ve had our lives. Lived out in freedom. And we want the same for children, and their children.
While we believe the lie, Hancock and Whitty can keep us locked up virtually forever, for their New World Order. Fully let us out in June on the promise of it’s forever. Then come Autumn the virus, or a new strain will re-emerge and they can lock us down again. Simples.
As I say use your eyes, and your own intuition. Except on TV or in the newspapers, do you see any poorly people. More than normal.
I know many on here will label me another nut job, fruit cake, conspiracy theorist, whatever.
So I am going to provide you with what many will call a Conspiracy Theory. And then ask you to do the easiest piece of research. Right from your computer, right now , while you are reading this.
The Conspiracy Theory. Antifa is under the direction and Guidance and control of the Democrats and the Deep State. Now most folk will say that’s a Conspiracy theory.
The easy research. Open a new browsing tab on your computer. Directly into the browser, keyin antifa full stop com. Obviously put a proper full stop in the middle. You’ll be shocked to see it redirects you immediately to The White House with numerous pictures of Administrator Biden.
Wake up folks, before its too late.
Well said. I doubt many if any people in the risk group would want anyone vaccinated in their name let along children and young people.
The fact that such an anti-scientific view – as this author displays – is still being promulgated goes to show how one of two things is going on.
The incredible blindness that one must have to not see an absolute train wreck coming from a rushed, experimental, new technology such as mRNA vaccines is just astounding! “Let’s parrot what we’re being told about the safety, safety, safety of this “miracle vaccine” by the very people who screwed us over to begin with as they sold us an obviously false narrative of a PCR test-driven “pandemic”, accompanied by anti-human, anti-social, anti-reason tyrannical governmental force, guilt, fear porn, and flat-out propaganda.” Maybe the silver lining is the peek inside their diabolical plans for the future (Bill Gates I’m looking at you), where now millions of people are waking up to the psychopaths that run the asylum.
Tom, this article is not only obvious worship at the feet of technocracy and a corrupt medical/pharma/government complex, but it is extremely lacking in terms of any sort of reason, balance, or actual concern for what could be absolutely catastrophic for the entire world. Please do better, way better.
No, we should absolutely not vaccinate children when they have no issues with the virus whatsoever, are you mad?!
Chivers ignores the age factor in children. Primary school children are at no risk nor do they spread Covid. I do not think primary schools should ever have closed. The PM probably closed them to avoid a fighrt with the unions.
Secondary schools are the ones that should be investigated by sensible trials.
Looking at the data here and in the USA, we are experiencing a rapid drop in cases from the January peak, with the corresponding drop in hospital admissions and deaths. Vaccination is now coming into the mix, and in two to three weeks, its full impact will be even clearer. It is also clear that the Government recognise that the issue is how we move from pandemic to endemic, where the virus is no longer a random killer but more an unwelcome addition to the small club of coronaviruses that cause the common cold. But even the common cold can be deadly when it gets into a naive population or one where susceptibility is high.
A simple calculation suggests that ‘herd immunity’ will not be achievable with CV19 and that a more controlled strategy of building ‘herd resilience’ will be more successful. Coronaviruses have vaulted species to become infectious in humans before and not just SARS and MERS. OC43 is a suspect in the Russian Flu pandemic in the early 1890s. Slowly, through infection – recovery and many deaths, it progressed down through the population to become, primarily, an infection of childhood.
A resilience strategy should then seek to mimic the virus’s natural evolution to endemic status (1), aided by vastly better medical care and vaccination. Inevitably, the move to endemic status is accompanied by mutations of the virus and new variants. This virus is no different from others – in some respects, it is better behaved than many. There is some evidence accumulating that T-cell immunity holds up well in dealing with reinfection and, indeed, that preceding infection with other CV’s reduces susceptibility to severe illness (2). So vaccinate across all susceptible groups, forget about case numbers – hospitalizations are key in deciding interventions – and slowly but decisively unlock. Lockdown becomes progressively self-defeating as all it does is defer transmission, infection, hospitalisation and death. Transmission, at some level, is inevitable. Forget elimination of the virus – it is here to stay; it will not become less virulent, but we can force the pace with which we build herd resilience.
The important facts are, this virus presents no threat to the vast majority of people. The risk group, very old and very sick is at risk from everything.
These vaccines and genetic treatments called vaccines are rushed, poorly tested and highly experimental. All the excuses in the world will never make up for the reality they were constructed in less than a year which is a ridiculously small amount of time for vaccines. And not everyone has faith in the claim that computer whizz kids could do things to study the ‘vaccines’ which old-fashioned, slow, steady research was not allowed to do.
We will not know for many months or a few years if they cause similar results as animal studies, i.e. deadly and destructive auto-immune responses or cytokine storms. Hypercytokinemia, is a physiological reaction in humans and other animals in which the innate immune system causes an uncontrolled and excessive release of pro-inflammatory signaling molecules called cytokines.
Surely until we are absolutely sure we would not go near the children? That is common sense. They cannot make a mature decision themselves and they are our future.
Good one; as usual on here more truth value below than above the line. But that’s the rule on most sites, the divide mirroring that between officialdom and the populace. They’re all bought and paid for. As my former university teacher Roger Scruton used to say, the parameters of permissible opinion were wider in Soviet era Eastern Bloc than in England today.
Athena, you say: “The important facts are, this virus presents no threat to the vast majority of people. The risk group, very old and very sick is at risk from everything.”
Exactly! Who on earth decided on a global vaccination campaign, of everyone on the planet?! Instead of a proportionate and targeted response. How could this happen? Shattering our ‘liberal democracies’ in the process…
Because Bill Gates is leading international vaccination policy now…a software billionaire dominates this area of public policy, with umpteen academics and associated hangers-on on his teat of cash…
See: What you need to know about the COVID-19 vaccine. Bill Gates. 30 April 2020.
“We” didn’t decide anything of course, but certain people did. When you step back and look at the fact that very wealthy and capable individuals and groups did a little mock exercise (Event 201, watch it for yourself, not making this up!) for a virus outbreak a couple of months prior to it actually happening, and then somehow the entire world wasn’t prepared to deal with it, you begin to see the reality that the nonsensical nature of what’s happening is not nonsensical at all. This chaos – restructuring of society around totalitarian, technocratic aims – was completely desired, and highly likely most of it was planned.
The beauty is, many who were fast asleep are now waking out of their slumber, and we are on the edge of a new Great Awakening, the likes of which the world hasn’t seen before, ever. Keep fighting the good fight, this will not end well for them. I am sure of it.
Tom Chivers says: “The vaccines are amazingly safe in adults, and I don’t know of any reason why they’d be less safe in children.”
What an audacious statement… We are at the start of an unprecedented vaccination campaign for millions, potentially billions, of people of all ages…this is the biggest medical experiment in history.
Vaccines, particularly for our children, are the biggest medicl experiment in history. Sanity would have us erring on the side of caution, but no, more, more and more, up from 2-3 at older ages in the early Seventies to more than 50 vaccinations in the first five years of life, beginning within hours of birth if not in utero.
How closely will science-medicine be looking at the significant drop in Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, which appeared as the vaccine schedule ramped up, in 2020 when fewer parents complied with vaccine schedules in the US because of the fear of Covid?
Vaccines are designed to trick the immune system into reacting to a non-threat. Such confusion is unnatural. Little wonder cancer in children and auto-immune diseases have skyrocketed in the age of heavily increased vaccination.
How can so much confusion in an immature immune system ever lead to robust, normal function? A child’s system is now tricked, confused, manipulated into acting unnaturally dozens of times in the first five years of life and now they want to add a genetic treatment to the list…
It’s insanity. Thankfully many many people are waking up. Keep speaking truth, no matter what names they call you or threats they throw at you. This is not the time to be timid. Take this battle to them, put them on the defensive. We will win this war.
Utterly immoral. Neurenberg Protocol forbids medical experiments on people who cannot (legally) express there will. Furthermore, any person should always be able to withdraw from the experiment, which is impossible when vaccinating. From the contract between the State of Israel and Pfizer it is very clear that vaccination is a medical trial ending January 31, 2023. Likewise the Helsinki committee has ruled. Vaccinating children for a disease which does not affect them is a crime against humanity. See you in court.
The schools have been open here in Thailand for months and life is pretty normal. No one is dying and no one is getting sick. This whole nonsense is about generations who are ignorant, ill informed, poorly educated and brain washed, who have no clue about risk and danger because they were not allowed to do anything by overprotective mollycoddling parents. This is a flu and it’s not a pandemic. The numbers speak for themselves. 2.5 million deaths (a grossly exaggerated number) globally out of 7,500 million humans =0.033% or 99.967% not dead. Get grip on reality…
Sweden
I know it’s desperately unfair but these days I tend to file all material in which the PM is matily referred to ‘Boris’ in the bin.
The author states that 85% of vaccinated people do not require hospitalisation compared to unvaccinated people, out of a population of 5.4 million in Scotland. So what!!
The fact is that without the vaccine around 98% or more of the population do not require hospitalisation. Therefore you are actually talking about 85% of the people that may have needed to go to hospital ,do not now need to go. Now that is great, but it isn’t the same thing insinuated. It is a tiny amount of people.
Also children and young adults require hospitalisation so rarely ,any other time it wouldn’t even be mentioned.
The whole thing is a scam. Why? Well ask yourself WHO profits?.
I believe the real danger lies in mutations, if you vaccinate a person with a compromised immune system and then that person catches the virus anyway and develops a persisting covid that they battle for several months, you will invariably end up with a strain that is very far from the original and immune or resistant to the antibodies produced by the vaccination. WHO and governments around the world need to get ahead of this before it’s too late.
You’re confusing the way a vaccine stimulates an immune response against a virus with the way bacteria evolve to achieve resistance to antibiotics.
Read the article “Persistence and Evolution of SARS-CoV-2 in an Immunocompromised Host” in the New England journal of medicine. It was released in November 2020 and documents 20 mutations of covid that appeared inside one immunocompromised host that had persisting covid for 5 months. In december the British strain was analyzed and it was 23 mutations away from the original virus, with no “in-betweens”, so the conclusion was that it too originated from one immunocompromised host. That was before the vaccination, though. With vaccination and a compromised immune system you will create the perfect breeding ground specifically for a strain that is resistant to antibodies produced by this specific vaccine. You are welcome to read recent articles in Science and Scientific American and others (as well research the concepts of viral genetics and antigenic drift), just Google “virus mutation in compromised immune systems” and definitely check out “SARS-CoV-2 evolution and vaccines: cause for concern?” In the Lancet
(I hope you’re right and I don’t know what I’m saying and better yet I’m going crazy or hallucinating)
Is the headline picture Boris’s spin on ‘This is Your Life’?
Tom, good article, as usual. But I’m still uncomfortable with the idea that the only variable affecting infection rates (and deaths) in this country, and versus other countries, is the policies enacted by the government on lockdown types, timing and durations. These clearly play a role but are not the only factor. For example, it’s known that obesity is a huge risk factor for a bad outcome (both in its own right and because it predisposes to (and is a result of) hypertension, diabetes and metabolic disease. And the UK is the fattest nation in Europe. Genetic factors definitely play a role too, particularly in the tendency to develop the unpleasant cytokine storm. It may be that there are more people with those genes in this country than, for example, in Germany. I don’t know. And then there’s the age profile of a country, too. And low levels of Vitamin D in the population (now known with stone-cold certainly to predispose to severe outcomes) vary across Europe, with us being very vulnerable (being ‘oop north’) and having a terribly weak and poorly communicated public policy on this vital hormone. The whole issue of severe disease and deaths is not simply just a function of policy mistakes on lockdown. The whole thing’s more nuanced. One final moan on one big policy mistake: aerosol inhalation is a very significant way of catching the virus, but public health messages and education are all about handwashing (by far the least likely way to reduce risk) and mask-wearing/spacing. There’s nothing about aerosol risk and the need to ventilate enclosed/small spaces. Extraordinary.
It’s extra ordinary how certain ideas become accepted with out question and as others have touched on natural orthodoxy is sidestepped in favour of always discussing human intervention.
This virus will be around for a long time just like every other one but its impact on society whatever we do will not. India is already a forerunner of that notion even if there is a little more uptick in a couple of states. But to the central question.
The simple answer is NO.
By all means push male secondary school teachers up the ladder whose mortality risk is higher than other working groups average and then female secondary school teachers who are slightly less at risk but a cohort who in the main are either asymptomatic or “poorly for a few days” should be allowed at the beginning of their lives to build natural immunity the effect of which with even ONS stats of nearly 20% is curiously absent from the conversation.
In Sweden the rate of infection last year was downward to children rather than up from them. Mothers congregating after school are well known to flout the SD rules and probably have contributed far more to transmission than anything else. They need to be given strict guidelines to collect children over a staggered period and not congregate.
I think it is a little too early to describe these vaccines as “amazingly safe”. In a recent interview on an NZ radio station, Byram Bridle, viral immunologist from the University of Guelph, discusses some of his concerns. I can’t post the link, but this very interesting interview can be found by searching for Magic Talk New Zealand
If you would like to read a more balanced article than this (Tom Chiver’s article) please read my article published in conservativewoman.co.uk on 19th February under the heading ‘ Why the vaccination roll-out shouldn’t be rushed’
I’d like a piece title “Why the vaccination roll-out shouldn’t happen at all” preferably. But any push towards truth is better than none. Thank you.
Thanks. I tried to write a balanced article and get people to ask reasonable questions and not feel pressured or rushed into making a decision.
I also want the public to ask themselves whether the scientists who have made the decisions on lockdowns and vaccinations are really as wise as they think they are. The human body and it’s immune system is phenomenal beyond words. Technology may be a wonderful thing but if you give scientists the raw chemical ingredients to make a single basic cell would they be capable of doing so without using what the body already provides?
“The vaccines are amazingly safe in adults”
As the Phase 1 trials of the Pfizer vaccine are due to be completed in June, it’s rather premature to proclaim success. These vaccines are radical and the time to assess what side effects there may be has some time to go yet.
After a year, a great many will have been exposed to the virus and may not require any vaccination, but, most importantly, the real threat to the young and healthy was always small, so under no circumstances should an experimental vaccine be administered to children.
At two months (eight weeks)
Most people think nothing of giving these to newborn babies. It looks horrific. These must have been tested on the young. Known reactions are the same as the new Covid 19 jabs. To fuss about giving a tiny dose of the adenovirus based Oxford jab tested on the chimpanzee, a creature the closest in the animal kingdom DNA to ourselves? I can’t speak for the Pfizer but its effect on the adult poulation seems the same. On these and many other comments pages there seems to be a common seam of “whatever the government wants, I don’t.” The commentariat have poor grounds to complain, they know very little about the subject and remind me of the same consensus as those who vilified Galileo and Copernicus. Flat earthers and conspiracy nutters to one side, we weren’t free before. Wasn’t it a government plot worldwide to provide pubs, parks, gyms and concerts to keep the hoi polloi quiet? Bread and circuses before. If they’d wanted to take over the world they would have let the disease run its course and kept the vaccine for themselves. A few public figures, pub landlords and our grandparents dying tragically and we’d have locked ourselves down. And ruined the economy for them. Pathetic hysterical folk.
‘Most people think nothing of giving these to newborn babies’.
True, but aside from the well known ideal herd immunity level issues, these are jabs to primarily to protect them from serious diseases, not their aging grandparents from something even most of them won’t be vulnerable to either.
One would also like to assume that in spite of the serious conditions they’re designed to prevent or lessen, they weren’t developed and released on the public at large within a previously unprecedented short time frame either.
Finally, with this in mind, not all vaccines are necessarily considered safe. Even ones that have previously undergone years of rigorous testing. Some are withdrawn over fears that they might not be safe and that assumed benefits might not be worth the risks.
‘I can’t speak for the Pfizer, but its effect on the adult population seems the same’
An interesting choice of words there, not least because the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine is already recommended by the CDC for use on those 16 or over and yet uses a relatively novel, largely unproven, often contentious in past technology called mRNA.
A ‘delivery’ method that the Oxford vaccine does not which, I suspect, is why you chose your phrasing so carefully.
I agree, most people don’t question giving their newborn babies that cocktail of vaccines. That’s the problem!
Also, it was the majority who vilified Galileo and Copernicus – just like the majority today vilifies anyone who questions its view on vaccines.
And your phrase, ‘a tiny dose’, sounds so innocuous – in spite of the ingredients and the fact that it is intravenous and therefore bypasses the body’s natural defence mechanisms.
At what age are the measles and chicken pox vaccines usually given? I know there’s an issue with unvaccinated kids being around babies because they could catch measles from them, so presumably the vaccine is too dangerous to give to children under a certain age. Never got it myself, being 58, I and all my siblings had and recovered from measles as very young children. I had no idea it was considered such a serious disease until measles shots started becoming commonplace; I thought it was no more serious than chicken pox, which is usually no big deal when young children get it (can be horrible for adults who get it though, hence the vaccine being a good idea).
Reply waiting approval….
Yup, and the fact that we don’t question that is really sad. Our children do not live in their own waste, drink from contaminated sources, or experience extreme malnutrition. Vaccines didn’t save us from infectious diseases, cleaning up our immediate environment did. It is an unproven theory, and largely disproved, that vaccines have saved us from any of the diseases. There is, however, abundant evidence that they have caused, and are causing, major issues, such as the AIDS outbreak (read The River by Ed Hooper), CFS/ME (Chronic Fatigue), pathogenic priming, new variants of the very pathogens being targeted, alzheimer’s, neurological disorders, autoimmune disorders, and much more.
Of course we should.
No Catch-22 applies to pediatric application of medical products any more than it does to adult application. The usual course taken is to establish safety and efficacy in adults first then to move on to children from this position of relative safety.
Whilst the risk to children from Covid-19 is happily quite low, it is higher than for other diseases which we now routinely vaccinate against – such as meningitis. Thus “anti-vaxxers” will be against this, as they are against vaccination in general, but the rest of us should not be.
In addition there are the benefits of (a) reducing the effect of children as vectors of infection spread; and (b) depriving the virus of yet another reservoir within which it has the opportunity to mutate. Ethically we should perhaps see that vaccines get to adults in poorer countries first, but children should be vaccinated too – it is virtually a no-brainer.
Only 6 children, without pre-existing illness, have died in England with a positive test for SarsCoV2. Far more are killed in road accidents. There is no case to vaccinate children with these novel products which have emergency authorization only. When the trials are complete in 2023 we can re-evaluate.
Well, everyone’s entitled to an opinion. I’ve got mine. You do what you like as regards your own children.
actually, the medical profession is not allowed to just use medical products on children, if they have been approved for adults . There is still a process to test safety in children, who are not just little adults. So far fewer drugs are passed for paediatric use. In particular, the longer term side effects of vaccination may be much more of a risk to children and young people than to older people, while the young are less likely to have serious infection (although certainly they are at risk). Even in the best of times, vaccine trials do not continue to monitor for months or years to look for long term impacts. Autoimmune illness is already increasing by 3-9% annually (British Society for Immunology). Many sufferers of autoimmune illnesses are ignored by the health services. The day the medical profession explain this rise is the day that I’ll believe they know everything about what causes chronic illnesses. Until then, being in a family with a history of autoimmune illnesses, I’ll consider the risks very carefully. It will be a scandal if Covid is the excuse used by the pharma industry (and Bill Gates) to get their long term aim of compulsory global vaccinations. It would be more reassuring if governments had not removed from vaccine companies any risk of claims for injury. If the government will guarantee that they will give benefits, possibly for life, to any who suffer ongoing illness from the vaccine, it would give us more confidence.
Agree your first 2-3 sentences – which is why pediatric trials are now being conducted. This fell within my words “move on to children”. Sorry I wasn’t clear about the trials.
The “long-term risks” part is largely guff as is the attempt to link a rise in autoimmune disease with vaccines. It’s anti-vaxx cut and paste rhetoric and I can’t be bothered with it.
“children as vectors of infection spread”.
Neither vaccinated children nor vaccinated adults will stop being vectors of infection spread.
Covid vaccines, so their manufacturers and scientists in general have been admitting from the start, are supposed to protect* from severe disease and death, not from spreading the vírus*.
What’s the point of vaccinating healthy young people when the frail and the old have been vaccinated?
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the vaccines. Reduction of severe disease and death is highly unlikely not to be associated with a reduction in the period and amount of viral shedding. Transmission reduction was for good reason not the primary endpoint of the trials so far conducted, but if data doesn’t go on to show that, I’ll eat one of my masks.
As to your “what’s the point” question, none of “immunity gained from vaccination”, “frailty” or “age” are either binary or time-independent variables, hence the point in vaccinating young so-called “healthy” people.
Is an ‘anti vaxxer’ a person who believes you shouldn’t inject children with experimental medication for a virus that is less harmful to them than the flu?
If it is, I am an anti vaxxer, but what does it make you?
Generally, to my mind, it’s someone poorly informed about matters related to vaccination who seeks to spread that misinformation to others so as to influence their behaviour, so yes, you probably are. Viz:
(i) Perjorative use of the word “experimental” in referring to the vaccines.
(ii) False claim that the SARS-Cov-2 virus is less harmful than influenza.
A study was done in the US in recent years which revealed parents questioning vaccines were, in general, vastly better informed than the average and even much better informed than doctors.
But, studies also show the group of questioners, dismissed as anti-vaxxers are also more likely to be professionals and highly educated so more than capable of doing the research required.
Good science and safe medicine require questions, or they once did. Only a fool would take on faith something which could harm themselves or their children, regardless of how well-intentioned it might appear.
Truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
Those questioning vaccines are being sensible. Those questioning Covid vaccines are being sensible and responsible. There are many doctors and scientists questioning Covid vaccines.
Semmelweiss was mocked and ridiculed for suggesting doctors needed to wash their hands in order to save the lives of birthing mothers. He was right but they drove him out anyway and went back to their dirty ways even as the kill count rocketed up again.
The doctor who first raised the alarm about Thalidomide was also mocked and many more deformed babies were born before reason took the stage.
Without the questioners we cannot have good science or safe medicine.
These are standard anti-vaxxer cut and paste arguments. I am really not interested. The Semmelweiss being laughed at one is particularly poor. They laughed at Coco the Clown too. They still do. You pick someone whose “whacky idea” turned out to be right as an argument that all your whacky ideas are going to turn out to be right. Dream on.
A study was done in the US in recent years which revealed parents questioning vaccines were, in general, vastly better informed than the average and even much better informed than doctors.
But, studies also show the group of questioners, dismissed as anti-vaxxers are also more likely to be professionals and highly educated so more than capable of doing the research required.
Good science and safe medicine require questions, or they once did. Only a fool would take on faith something which could harm themselves or their children, regardless of how well-intentioned it might appear.
Untrue. I’ve been prescribing for children for 27 years. Most medicines for children are unlicensed (lack of RCTs in children) but they will have a) passed phase trials of efficacy and safety and b) hard been around in the adult population long enough to understand late possible effects.
Your cavalier attitude to children is awful.
The awful attitude I see is in people who are happy to expose children and everyone else to both the short-term and unknown long-term effects of a virus which in a naive subject are very clearly a worse risk to that subject than any one of the vaccines so far authorised in the US and Europe..
Masterful triggering of UnHinged’s sizeable contingent of antivaxers. Comments from the “Bill Gates microchipped my grandma” posse incoming in 5…4…3…2… 1… Go! Go! Go! Send in the clowns!
Most people’s objections to being reduced to bit actors in an unprecedented social experiment is more nuanced and humanitarian than the straw man argument of ‘they’re all hysterical anti vaxxers’ suggests.Some of them are – but that doesn’t invalidate the majority.
Even the conspiracy theorists need to have their concerns addressed – unless you deny government’s ever do things through malice, ideology or just stupidity that would be against their people’s interests in saner times (a quick glance at history is all that’s needed here).
I’m going to take my vaccine, but I’m not going to dismiss others concerns as if I’ve just had a religious conversion and I’m damning the heretics.
I think the smugness is a little misplaced there. If you support vaccines and are in a position to know, it would be better to educate than patronise.
Very well said.
Freedom of choice is key, and so should your right to personal privacy regarding whether you’ve had it or not.
This increasing tendency to ‘binarize’ everything and everyone nowadays, as this gentleman ably demonstrates by his comment doesn’t help, both in terms of making an informed, on balance personal decision and exercising the right to free speech.
Not sure this is a particularly helpful comment
Yes, not wanting children to be guinea pigs = anti-vaxxers, mostly in the feebles minds of those unburdened by critical thinking.
Children are not at risk and do not transmit according to the RCPCH
They arrive slowly on account of the square wheels on their clown cars.
Bill is up to a lot worse than chipping your Granny.
Truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
Those questioning vaccines are being sensible. Those questioning Covid vaccines are being sensible and responsible. There are many doctors and scientists questioning Covid vaccines.
Semmelweiss was mocked and ridiculed for suggesting doctors needed to wash their hands in order to save the lives of birthing mothers. He was right but they drove him out anyway and went back to their dirty ways even as the kill count rocketed up again.
The doctor who first raised the alarm about Thalidomide was also mocked and many more deformed babies were born before reason took the stage.
Without the questioners we cannot have good science or safe medicine.
Yes, but Semmelweis was not right because he was ridiculed. It’s because he understood the emerging science of infection better that supporters of the “miasma” theory. Similarly, the fact that some people “question” vaccines does not invalidate the vaccines. There is no causal relationship in either case.
The efficacy of vaccines will be established by scientific research, as were Semmelweiss’ theories. At the moment I can’t find any sunstantiated reason not to have a vaccine. Having a wife and daughter (aged 18) who are still suffering the debilitating effects of COVID after up to 3 months, I can find excellent reasons to have one.
I received my first dose of AZ yesterday and I’m still alive.
Debilitating effects for some, nothing for others. Everyone should obviously be free to inject themselves with experimental technology if they so choose, but as a whole let’s be cautious and not so brazen about worshipping the equivalent of modern shamanistic practices.
We are playing with fire when it comes to vaccines in general, and we’re playing with nuclear weapons when it comes to this vaccine. Do you have any idea of the potential long-term (longer than 3 months) side effects of these covid vaccines? Do you have some special insight into what they can do beyond the extremely limited trials?
I don’t understand the blind faith, I cannot fathom how perfectly healthy individuals will opt to take a medical experiment, with new technology, but think that their extremely complex and capable immune systems will fare worse. Some people really do worship technology evidently.
And you do know that pathogenic priming is a real thing, right?