Don’t give them ideas. West Virginia will be next.
Nigel H
3 years ago
It’s not just medicine One of my areas of interest is in tribology ““ the study of lubrication and wear. The standard scientific journal for the subject is, not surprisingly called, the Journal of Tribology. 25 years ago, there would be the odd paper (1 or 2) published by academics in China in each journal ““ if that. Now a scroll through the authors and their location is at least 25% Chinese. Then there are authors with Chinese names studying abroad in collaborative research with others. So the Chinese research student takes away the fruits of the research success as they were a third/quarter/fifth of the team. So the combination of the above 2 is about 40% Chinese- and rising. Now the punchline ““ doing pre and post doctorate science and engineering research in the UK is difficult as the local/ European students tend to veer away from it, as the cost of continuing their education/ academic career is so expensive. In the UK, it’s the UK tax payer that’s helping to pay for the research, but fewer and fewer research students are from the UK. However, lots are from China, with the Chinese government paying their fees to study here. So we are approaching the point where the UK is “paying” for the Chinese students to do the UK’s research ““ yet the UK doesn’t get the deep knowledge gained by the work, and the Chinese are unlikely to honour any IP which finds its way back to their neck of the woods. It won’t surprise anyone reading this to figure out what academic research areas are covered, and which aren’t.
Identical in computing. Until a few years ago datasheets were always available in English. Today, the most hot chips have only a Chinese datasheet. It is also a long time ago that I read a computing paper that did not have Chinese looking names.
I doubt our kids are going to mind the debt they inherit that much. But I think they have a right to blame us how we’ve given away the table silver in a bizarre collusion between capitalists and and the formerly left only to get cheaper toys.
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Very interesting. This seems to be just another example of the way in which the Chinese are running rings around the West. Of course, given the pathologies that have entered and occupied the Western mind, this is not especially difficult.
“Pathologies” indeed – the perfect description of the rotting Western mind!
David Probert
3 years ago
Well, for a start it is clear the Medical Science is now more about making money than progress in science and the curing of disease. So why is anyone surprised that China uses medical science and research industries to dominate, just like all the other areas where the west has now been made totally dependent on Chinese goods ?
The arrogant stupidity of western politicians, thinking they can ‘play’ China and the greed of the Globalist companies, sacking their western workforces to make more money in China, have as a consequence the aiding of China towards total world domination in all things.
It reminds me of the squabbling self-serving European powers in 1453 – arguing with each other – Venice and Genoa – England fighting to hold on in France -and losing – all of them looking the other way while the Turks moved in and snatched the barely defended great prize of Constantinople and ended 1,000 years of the Byzantine Christian Empire…… at a stroke !
The noble Knights of Christendom could not believe what had happened under their very noses .
Here we go again. “Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake” ( Napoleon)
Alan Girling
3 years ago
Canada has been out of favour with China since it decided to detain and hold for extradition a Huawei exec on behalf of the U.S. Since then, China has been very clearly taking measures to punish Canada, including conducting retrials of Canadian citizens incarcerated in China, the new sentences being capital punishment. Then, so wisely, Canada decided to contract with a Chinese pharma for a bulk of its Covid vaccines, only to have the contract cancelled just before rollout, leaving Canada hobbled in its attempts to take care of its citizens. Draw your own conclusions.
Joe Francis
3 years ago
China is becoming the Denis Waterman of nations. Write the theme song, sing the theme song.
So let me get the maths right, in 2019: 2015 NHPs were used in experiments in the UK; 71 % non-Chinese origin, with 29% (586) from China. So we have to breed another say 600 to make up the shortfall from China. 5 years to maturity, not insurmountable I would suggest. Time to get cracking.
stephen f.
3 years ago
It is not just medical domination that the CCP is pursuing.
judykwarner
3 years ago
I wonder how much money China has invested in western animal rights groups. However much it is, they are getting a great return.
Hegemony in all areas is their stated goal! Why should this move surprise us? We must develop alternative sources to every area in which we rely on China. They means, every area!
Pierre Pendre
3 years ago
If this is part of the CCP’s masterplan, it can only be successful temporarily while the West ramps up monkey farming. Worse is the extent, after Covid, to which we discovered the West is dependent on the manufacture in China of drugs on which we rely, presumably a byproduct of short-sighted offshoring of an essential resource by Western pharmaceutical companies. We need to repatriate the manufacture of pharmaceutical products in order not to be held hostage.
Niall Quinn
3 years ago
China has already been a go-to for western scientific establishments because of its relatively lax ethical standards. Indeed, following the Obama administration’s ban on gain of function research, scientists have been using Chinese labs (including the Wuhan Institute of Virology) to carry out such research. In that context, especially with Chinese military interest in GOF work, it can be reasonably assumed that western intelligence is never far away. WIV is of course the possible source of sars cov2. Go figure.
Obama banned gain of function research here while allowing Fauci to send American tax $$$ to Wuhan to do his lousy work there. And now we’re dealing w the disastrous results.
Thanks, Obama.
Tom Fox
3 years ago
While the writer is right to flag up that we may be dangerously reliant on a single source of monkeys for research and indeed that that source may not be entirely benign, it would be perfectly possible, given some investment to source monkeys from elsewhere and easily doable for countries with a bit of motivation to breed their own monkeys. So PETA and animal rights activists would get nasty about it…. So what? Arrest them and lock them, up. Indeed, were it left to me, I’d use THEM for medical experiments.
One thing which continually disappoints me is that everything is written in apocalyptic terms. China (had it the desire to do so, which I think is questionable) can only restrict our research, if we are spineless enough and feeble enough to allow it to happen. WE are not the EU. We can very rapidly respond to problems which are existential issues. Our spectacular vaccine procurement like that of some other countries demonstrates that.
animal lover
3 years ago
If we would spend as much money on developing natural remedies and focusing on diet, we wouldn’t even need all the pharmaceutical chemicals and vaccines. Probably a tenth of what we are using now. Why don’t we do this??
Simple answer – the pharmaceutical companies don’t make a profit.
Penelope Newsome
3 years ago
I am not a violent animal rights activist, but i do support non -animal research etc. I don’t see why in this very sophisticated IT age computer modelling can’t be developed to replace these thousands of poor monkeys. Imagine if one day indeed super human robots decide that humans should now be bred for pharmaceutical research? We are taking advantage of a less developed species , so why should they not feel they can do the same to us ?
It’s obviously high time to stop all this cruelty to animals, especially to primates so near to us in evolution. I hope maybe this fear of Chinese domination will make the West see that animals are not necessary and that they are being actually very cruel and horrible to use them.
“I don’t see why in this very sophisticated IT age computer modelling can’t be developed to replace these thousands of poor monkeys”. Something tells me this is not your field of expertise. Whilst this modelling is being developed are you volunteering yourself to test if the medicines humans need are safe? Or would you prefer that they die? Which is cruel and horrible.
Because you cant make a computer model of something you dont understand. And even with things you do understand, computer models are very very simple compared to reality. They aren’t useful. Mathematical models of the brain are toy like. We dont really know very much about the brain, and what we do know we learned from animals and surgical patients. We do actually do experiments on humans when they need surgery, but we dont get enough opportunities to replace animals. Some brain regions can be invesrigated with rodents, and we do that where possible. For other regions monkeys are the only option. Computer models are not even close to being useful.
It is worth pointing out that monkeys are not little humans. They see the world differently to us. Some things that distress you might not distress a monkey, and vice versa. Clearly they do not live ideal lives in a cage, even a really large cage. But their wild lives are very brutal indeed. Rhesus macaques have large fangs which are weapons for use on other monkeys. They murder each other and each others children, and even their own children constantly is the truth.
I do agree with you totally. Having read the article, a clever idea came to my mind. In reference to our “need” to use primates in science, why don´t we promote the use of all serious criminals lying in our prison facilities as guinea pigs for experimentation? Surely we would be doing two great things for the betterment of the human species. On the one hand, we would be making use of the criminal population in a sensible and fair way, having them to pay back to society in a more fitting manner that just sitting around watching telly and smoking weed ( on our pockets). On the other hand, we would save the huge amount of money required to feed and care for this large population of criminals. The easiest way would be to strip all serious criminals (white collar ones included of course) from all of their human rights. No lawyers claiming mercy. Once a criminal one becomes automatically food for the lab. End of the problem, forever.
Computer models that the “climate emergency” is based on continually predict catastrophes that never occur as we reach the projected year of inevitable apocalypse, yet the same models when fed with all known data, cannot “predict” past events…
Starry Gordon
3 years ago
The US needs a big foreign enemy to keep its own fractious tribal culture(s) from falling apart. Periodically, old actors are given a vacation and new ones are called in. Russia played the role well for a long time, but then got tired. They came back for a bit, having been poked by the NATO stick, but weren’t really interested. The Muslims, having been harassed for generations, tried out for the part but couldn’t play it very well. The only other possibility at the moment is China. The problem with China is that they are too useful in other roles, which is essentially what this article is about. Not enough monkeys? We have plenty of monkeys in the West. Just look around.
David Bottomley
3 years ago
I suppose that at some point, we might well have to choose between the USA or China for our so called special relationship or find some way of trying to be best friends with both of them. Heave help us if we ever have to make a choice
The choice seems obvious and happily it is one we have already made. Our tolerance of China quite rightly is and will continue to go into reverse in order to preserve our way of life. The CCP are evil.
In the end it might come down to ‘He who pays the piper calls the tune’ and we will have to choose which ever one looks like the best bet for our future. I wouldn’t be quite so sure as you. To use Gove’s phrase ‘, there are going to be a few bumps in the road ‘ before we reach a smooth way ahead. God help us if Russia and China come to some sort of agreement on ‘mutual cooperation’ and God help,us if the USA loses its way.
mike otter
3 years ago
It occurs to me from the fear stoking yellow peril comments in the article and below that some credit the CCP with planning and executing the most amazing acts of commercial, intellectual and cultural warfare against other nations. They have massive problems at home with corruption, fraud, illicit drug manufacture, pollution etc. With near totalitarian control they should be as adept at solving these issues as they supposedly are at stopping our flow of monkeys for experimentation. Leaving aside the ethical questions raised by playing Mengele with monkeys surely its not so much the Chinese are cleverer than us? Its more our politicians are incredibly stupid by comparison, and hell bent on dragging our societies down to their level. The Chinese reward intellectual effort, innovation and commerce as long is doesn’t rock the CCP boat. For some reason the UK ruling party elite seem to fear learning and hard work as much as they fear imbecilic boat rockers like Piers Corbyn as if he were Mao on the Long March. That tells us all we need to know about their intellect and morals, or lack thereof.
Alan Thorpe
3 years ago
The Chinese leadership seems to be getting everything right. They are buying up mineral assets in Africa and property everywhere. I don’t know what they think about human caused climate change, but they treat it as the fraud it is. If the Chinese can live with the constraints imposed on them, it isn’t working out too badly. In comparison the west is run by idiots.
mike otter
3 years ago
I have been resisting the urge to make this comment all day but after a couple of long necks and a cone i can’t stop myself. Are we sure this guy’s name doesn’t contain a typo? I mean Bogan wisdom will always opine “you gotta watch these yella fellas mate, they’re wily oriental gentlemen”
You should have desisted; the cone must have addled your brain. The Cubans and the Venezuelans are just as bad an not “yella” and not as powerful. Nothing wrong with Chinese people just the evil CCP.
I think you’ve missed my point, i think the piece is sinophobic and for some reason thought the writer is an Aussie cos he wrote for the SCMP. He isn’t. Bogan is an Aussie term equating to Rube in US English and i think possibly Chav in UK but its not as perjorative as Chav. Bogans are salt of the earth types, often have mullets and tattoos, typically blunt of speech and fond of liquor and weed. Think Bon Scott c1976. Not sure where the LatAm stuff comes from – Communists in Cuba and Venezuela have failed to change society in any meaningful way compared to Mao and the CCP. As with most fake prejudice accusation its utter madness – my wife of nearly 40 years is Chinese and my second language is Spanish!
The author obviously isn’t a Bogan – he has teeth. Equally his words are just not sinophobic just mildly and appropriately critical of the evil CCP.
I think Cubans and Venezuelans may disagree with you that those communist regimes have not brought meaningful change. Clearly they have. Just not for the better. But at least not as murderously as Mao.
It’s not prejudice to abhor the CCP regime; its politics. My loathing is more in sympathy with the Chinese people than anything else, or at least those Chinese who live under their control. The CCP is not benign; they are seriously dangerous to the Chinese, dangerous to the Taiwanese dangerous to us and if anything we have let it go too far because our greed has trumped our morality.
John Urwin
3 years ago
In case you have not read it, “Hidden Hand” by Clive Hamilton and Mareike Ohlberg sets out how the Chinese Communist Party is manoeuvring to became the world’s leading power. The subtitle is “Exposing how the CCP is reshaping the World”…
James Moss
3 years ago
Surely the solution is to offer payment in peanuts.
Victoria Cooper
3 years ago
That is appalling on so many levels. Looking at their human rights record I dread to imagine monkeys’ rights. Another reason for becoming more self-sufficient.
Allan Edward Tierney
3 years ago
Using terms such as ‘domination’ in reference to China is irresponsible. It projects a jingoistic aim desiring a warlike stance and is wholly inappropriate. China has the most successful global economy and will soon eclipse the economic power and reach of the USA. This is at the root of the current aggressive western stance we are seeing so often these days and is a symptom of elite western paranoia rather than anything else. Our elites are convinced that only they continuing to judge, monitor and manipulate world events can assure stability and the rue of law. This stance comes from a long history that has by no means proven the above case. Genocide, slavery, colonialism and in recent years regime change justified by half-truths and outright lies have not produced a stable and just world, but in fact the opposite. It’s time to stop supporting this myopic devotion to western elitism and acknowledge that China is no enemy and her increased reach shows every sign of bringing the goal of a stable and peaceful planet to actuality rather than the constant belligerence and exceptionalism demonstrated by the West.
timjuk
3 years ago
I run a small science based marketing company. https://marketwise.co.uk. Over the last 10 years, I’ve witnessed exponential growth in the amount of researchers and institutions that are based in China. Obviously almost all are government backed. They are researching every imaginable advanced topic.
It feels like we haven’t seen anything yet, the West is asleep at the wheel, it could already be too late to keep up.
johnsmithkalk
3 years ago
COVID-19, with all its travel restrictions, had meant closed borders for different countries.In Australia, a border worker at Auckland Airport has been found to be positive for coronavirus. The airport’s employee belonged to the group of fully vaccinated border workers. The Ministry of Health has confirmed that COVID-19 protocols of contract tracing, isolating and interviewing have commenced.
johngrant4est
3 years ago
It seems odd, given the public concern over animal research (and suffering in particular) that we are not investing in research to find ex vivo and in vitro alternatives to NHPs. It doesn’t seem too far-fetched to speculate that advances in genetics and bioengineering could lead to development of an ex vivo ‘model’ of the human immune system that would 1. Give more reliable and meaningful results than infecting macaques with viruses and measuring their immune response, and 2. Cost a lot less than $10K to produce.
Carl Goulding
3 years ago
Sounds like research has become just another big business. I wonder how much of this research is actually really essential and what the so called benefits are…..apart from increasing profits of pharmaceutical companies?
The thing about research is that you don’t know it’s essential till you’ve done it, and any large advance relies on many smaller previous advances, the benefit of which is not always obvious till it’s used. For example, I am developing a new form of brain scan. This may well help detect the early phases of Alzheimer’s. I’m doing it using marmoset monkeys. My paper cites about 50 other papers. One of those, for example, was from a lab at Monash university in australia, where they mapped the motor areas of the marmoset brain, in 2008. I need that information to proceed, but in 2008 they didn’t do it to help me, they just did it because it’s the thing to do. I recently found that the woman who did that paper in 2008 was attacked by animal rights activists for doing “pointless research”. It’s not pointless just because it’s not clear exactly how it will be used. Her attackers simply lack sufficient knowledge to understand how research works in a general sense. From a scientists perspective, it’s obvious that mapping marmoset motor cortex will probably come in handy. Basically it’s sort of your attitude that’s killing medical research in the west actually. That’s the truth of it. Becuase we (academic scientists rather than commercial) are funded by general taxation. Compared to other area of public spending, we cost very little and produce rather a lot. But this naive attitude you and very many others have about what is useful and what is not, filters through into funding decisions, so that we have to show immediate benefit when we apply for money, even though everyone invloved knows that’s not how science works. It works by slowly gathering knowledge.
It has crossed my mind that there are exciting work opportunities in China. An entire department at Max Planck recently moved to China. They just put their equipment on a ship and left Germany. China a much more supportive environment. They fund it because it’s in their national interests. They don’t care what people think, they just do it. That said the Chinese population seem entirely happy with the idea that China might lead the way in making medical and other scientific adavances. In the west we used to be that way too.
Thank you for your excellent insight on research related challenges and the casual attitude of the unsuspecting public. It was Nikola Tesla who drew our attention to the ‘boldness of ignorance.’ I dare say, it’s making its round in all spheres of human endeavours; while the Chinese are quietly advancing their hegemony by exploiting the dividends of the institutions and infrastructure in the West.
We are yet to coin a world to account for a communist state that exploits both the capitalist systems and its people as well as people that live in autocratic regimes. When we do, the whole world will wake up from its deep slumber.
They are hugely exploiting the institutions and infrastructure of the west. They are plunduring us for training and expertise really. But we make no attempt to stop them. And if they want to pay scientists a good wage and give them good facilities and a good bureacratic environment for their work, then I think that is something to consider as a rational indviidual person. They have energy to succeed, like we had after the second world war. There have been many chinese friends and colleagues at my institution for many decades now, most of whom changed their first names to be more pronouncable for us. Perhaps it is time for me to learn their language instead.
Well, if the research is inessential, it can’t be used, and if it can’t be used, it can’t really help with “increasing profits of pharmaceutical companies”, can it?
Besides, what’s wrong with that anyway? The alternative is state science – Lysenko, eugenics, climatology. Those all went really well.
We basically do have state science, in terms of actual research. Its done in universities isnt it. Drug companies or private companies arent really interested in because the returns take too long. It’s one area where state funding is essential in practice. It doesnt really cost much though and it tends to sprout a lot of private enterprise nearby.
You have to remember that science and scientists have a bad name because of Covid – everyone wants someone to blame. Scientists are easy because, unlike you, they don’t join in these conversations, which are more for PPE students.
I worked in university research for about 5 years and, as you imply, there were Research Fellows there who only thought of the next two years’ grant – no ambition, no urgency. Which is why I left and went into manufacturing, which would not pay enough for research because it wanted profits NOW.
Today, if anybody makes a profit it becomes (drum roll) Big Business, a distasteful thing which is something to frighten your children with. But I have visited manufacturing sites in Asia, where they do things properly; the scientists really know their business. I guess we are frightened of them and feel more cuddly when we think of the USA – a country which is overrated science-wise, except in the development of armaments.
I didnt really know we had a bad name because of covid. We didnt cause that. There wasnt any time to figure it out and gather information and find an agreement. Science isnt really a rapid response thing. I mean the vaccine stuff has gone well, but no one knows how to handle things with lockdowns or not or whatever. How can anyone know that? No one really listens to scientists anyway, they just pick and choose what they want to hear. I live in the UK but at the moment I tele work with an american group. America is still far ahead of most places for neuroscience but it’s in terminal decline and china already won. The reasons are cultural. Europe doesnt really get a look in. Its about the use of monkeys. You have to use them in neuroscience because their brains are more like ours than those of rats. The Europeans reject that outright, Americans partially reject its and the Chinese embrace it. They see the opportunity to beat us. They are taking it.
I mostly enjoy your posts and debate points, but this constant harping on the US becomes tiresome-surely you can make your often cogent arguments without these compulsive digs…
Hilariously naive. “what the so called benefits are” …of research? of safe medicine? With attitudes like that the west is doomed. You will not have to worry about big business when the CCP runs and owns everything nor monkey testing because they will have no qualms about using humans. Oh and my granny’s pension comes from pharma dividends.
Are we sure we want to use animals anyway? SARS, MERS, COVID, AIDS are diseases that have come to us from animals. Do vaccines developed using animals not make humans more susceptible to animal born diseases. Also scientists have been creating human animal hybrids in the lab and then experimenting on them before killing them. This is like something orcs and trolls in the Lord of the Rings
GCSEs not being worth the paper they are written on. I suppose you have some though, and consequently think you are well educated.
Allan Edward Tierney
3 years ago
I am heartened to hear that China is playing an ever more dominant role globally. This can only herald a world more closely aligned with the ethos of finding mutually beneficial agreement rather than indulging in divisive aggression as we see constantly from the USA and UK. I welcome the rise of China as our world’s most hopeful sign of future unity of purpose through trade and not through the present trading of insults as generated almost exclusively by western nations. All power to the wiser heads of China I say!
We tend to be afraid of China because it is different. We love the USA (with all of its weapons) and feel cuddly when we watch all their movie stars strut their stuff. I can assure you that, except for armaments, China is about 20 years ahead of the USA in its science and development. They will win the battle and the USA will have to use its armaments and concoct reasons to step in.
Probably all the Uighers are helping in the “scientific” experiments -albeit unwillingly. Does it remind you of a similar situation in the not too distant past?
It reminds me of the constant interfering by the USA in the politics of South America, of the decision to invade Viet Nam to save the world from communism, of making Cuba an enemy of the state because it had the wrong politics, thereby making the people of Cuba suffer. It reminds me that the USA can use its technology to kill everybody, not just one group of people.
Well…the USA is not up to 100 million yet-as are the freedom loving “others” who “interfered in the politics of Cuba and the rest of the world…but we digress again, don’t we Chris?
The ‘logic’ of anti-Americanism (as opposed to valid critiques) is always, ‘the enemies of America must be fine and dandy’. No, a sharing of enmity does NOT make an ally. Look closely, be objective. Don’t be a ‘useful idiot’
No we are afraid of China because they put their people in education camps and drive tanks over protesters. The CCP killed more than Stalin and Hitler together.
Taiwan’s independence from China needs to be recognised so we do not abandon the Taiwanese as we have the people of Honk Kong.
So, this site is not a free site for discussion? If in doubt revert to name calling. See the posts below by a research scientist who will tell you what is really going on in the world as you sit in front of your computer.
It’s the perfect plan for a Bond movie to rule the world: Dr Evil’s biolabs concoct the virus and its vaccine simultaneously; then create a pandemic; supply the antidote to the rest of the world but only in exchange for trade, political and military concessions. Rinse and repeat. I think it’s a winner as a movie :-))
Oh dear. More “bipolar world” drivel from you Allen. Course the evil west rejects the “good actors” in Russia and China. Except of course the are both rotten oppressive regimes. We need less contact with them not more.
Which is it: a) your looking for a rise? b) employed by CCP? c) Your an engineer and so have dictatorial tendencies?
Can’t we substitute woke activists for NHPs, and test drugs on them? Then they’d actually be doing one useful thing in their lives.
With or without anaesthetic?
It has an excellent Classical precedent in that vivisection is thought to have been practiced in Alexandria well before the birth of Christ.
I wouldn’t insist on anaesthetic if we were talking about Monbiot.
Agreed, plus a number of other deserving candidates.
Including the current Cabinet, which could be replaced by NHPs, which would do a considerably better job at running the country.
Perhaps we can ferret out some Chinese research papers from the Uyghur medical experiments.
Don’t give them ideas. West Virginia will be next.
It’s not just medicine
One of my areas of interest is in tribology ““ the study of lubrication and wear. The standard scientific journal for the subject is, not surprisingly called, the Journal of Tribology. 25 years ago, there would be the odd paper (1 or 2) published by academics in China in each journal ““ if that. Now a scroll through the authors and their location is at least 25% Chinese.
Then there are authors with Chinese names studying abroad in collaborative research with others. So the Chinese research student takes away the fruits of the research success as they were a third/quarter/fifth of the team.
So the combination of the above 2 is about 40% Chinese- and rising.
Now the punchline ““ doing pre and post doctorate science and engineering research in the UK is difficult as the local/ European students tend to veer away from it, as the cost of continuing their education/ academic career is so expensive. In the UK, it’s the UK tax payer that’s helping to pay for the research, but fewer and fewer research students are from the UK. However, lots are from China, with the Chinese government paying their fees to study here. So we are approaching the point where the UK is “paying” for the Chinese students to do the UK’s research ““ yet the UK doesn’t get the deep knowledge gained by the work, and the Chinese are unlikely to honour any IP which finds its way back to their neck of the woods.
It won’t surprise anyone reading this to figure out what academic research areas are covered, and which aren’t.
Identical in computing. Until a few years ago datasheets were always available in English. Today, the most hot chips have only a Chinese datasheet. It is also a long time ago that I read a computing paper that did not have Chinese looking names.
I doubt our kids are going to mind the debt they inherit that much. But I think they have a right to blame us how we’ve given away the table silver in a bizarre collusion between capitalists and and the formerly left only to get cheaper toys.
Very interesting. This seems to be just another example of the way in which the Chinese are running rings around the West. Of course, given the pathologies that have entered and occupied the Western mind, this is not especially difficult.
“Pathologies” indeed – the perfect description of the rotting Western mind!
Well, for a start it is clear the Medical Science is now more about making money than progress in science and the curing of disease. So why is anyone surprised that China uses medical science and research industries to dominate, just like all the other areas where the west has now been made totally dependent on Chinese goods ?
The arrogant stupidity of western politicians, thinking they can ‘play’ China and the greed of the Globalist companies, sacking their western workforces to make more money in China, have as a consequence the aiding of China towards total world domination in all things.
It reminds me of the squabbling self-serving European powers in 1453 – arguing with each other – Venice and Genoa – England fighting to hold on in France -and losing – all of them looking the other way while the Turks moved in and snatched the barely defended great prize of Constantinople and ended 1,000 years of the Byzantine Christian Empire…… at a stroke !
The noble Knights of Christendom could not believe what had happened under their very noses .
Here we go again. “Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake” ( Napoleon)
Canada has been out of favour with China since it decided to detain and hold for extradition a Huawei exec on behalf of the U.S. Since then, China has been very clearly taking measures to punish Canada, including conducting retrials of Canadian citizens incarcerated in China, the new sentences being capital punishment. Then, so wisely, Canada decided to contract with a Chinese pharma for a bulk of its Covid vaccines, only to have the contract cancelled just before rollout, leaving Canada hobbled in its attempts to take care of its citizens. Draw your own conclusions.
China is becoming the Denis Waterman of nations. Write the theme song, sing the theme song.
So who is Arthur Daley then?
So let me get the maths right, in 2019:
2015 NHPs were used in experiments in the UK; 71 % non-Chinese origin, with 29% (586) from China.
So we have to breed another say 600 to make up the shortfall from China. 5 years to maturity, not insurmountable I would suggest. Time to get cracking.
It is not just medical domination that the CCP is pursuing.
I wonder how much money China has invested in western animal rights groups. However much it is, they are getting a great return.
… the MSS reach is a long one …
Hegemony in all areas is their stated goal! Why should this move surprise us? We must develop alternative sources to every area in which we rely on China. They means, every area!
If this is part of the CCP’s masterplan, it can only be successful temporarily while the West ramps up monkey farming. Worse is the extent, after Covid, to which we discovered the West is dependent on the manufacture in China of drugs on which we rely, presumably a byproduct of short-sighted offshoring of an essential resource by Western pharmaceutical companies. We need to repatriate the manufacture of pharmaceutical products in order not to be held hostage.
China has already been a go-to for western scientific establishments because of its relatively lax ethical standards. Indeed, following the Obama administration’s ban on gain of function research, scientists have been using Chinese labs (including the Wuhan Institute of Virology) to carry out such research. In that context, especially with Chinese military interest in GOF work, it can be reasonably assumed that western intelligence is never far away. WIV is of course the possible source of sars cov2. Go figure.
Obama banned gain of function research here while allowing Fauci to send American tax $$$ to Wuhan to do his lousy work there. And now we’re dealing w the disastrous results.
Thanks, Obama.
While the writer is right to flag up that we may be dangerously reliant on a single source of monkeys for research and indeed that that source may not be entirely benign, it would be perfectly possible, given some investment to source monkeys from elsewhere and easily doable for countries with a bit of motivation to breed their own monkeys. So PETA and animal rights activists would get nasty about it…. So what? Arrest them and lock them, up. Indeed, were it left to me, I’d use THEM for medical experiments.
One thing which continually disappoints me is that everything is written in apocalyptic terms. China (had it the desire to do so, which I think is questionable) can only restrict our research, if we are spineless enough and feeble enough to allow it to happen. WE are not the EU. We can very rapidly respond to problems which are existential issues. Our spectacular vaccine procurement like that of some other countries demonstrates that.
If we would spend as much money on developing natural remedies and focusing on diet, we wouldn’t even need all the pharmaceutical chemicals and vaccines. Probably a tenth of what we are using now. Why don’t we do this??
Simple answer – the pharmaceutical companies don’t make a profit.
I am not a violent animal rights activist, but i do support non -animal research etc. I don’t see why in this very sophisticated IT age computer modelling can’t be developed to replace these thousands of poor monkeys. Imagine if one day indeed super human robots decide that humans should now be bred for pharmaceutical research? We are taking advantage of a less developed species , so why should they not feel they can do the same to us ?
It’s obviously high time to stop all this cruelty to animals, especially to primates so near to us in evolution. I hope maybe this fear of Chinese domination will make the West see that animals are not necessary and that they are being actually very cruel and horrible to use them.
“I don’t see why in this very sophisticated IT age computer modelling can’t be developed to replace these thousands of poor monkeys”. Something tells me this is not your field of expertise. Whilst this modelling is being developed are you volunteering yourself to test if the medicines humans need are safe? Or would you prefer that they die? Which is cruel and horrible.
“Imagine if one day indeed super human robots decide that humans should now be bred for pharmaceutical research?”
You mean Josef Mengele, Unit 731 etc and our ongoing unethical testing using foetus’ It seems we have been there done that.
Because you cant make a computer model of something you dont understand. And even with things you do understand, computer models are very very simple compared to reality. They aren’t useful. Mathematical models of the brain are toy like. We dont really know very much about the brain, and what we do know we learned from animals and surgical patients. We do actually do experiments on humans when they need surgery, but we dont get enough opportunities to replace animals. Some brain regions can be invesrigated with rodents, and we do that where possible. For other regions monkeys are the only option. Computer models are not even close to being useful.
It is worth pointing out that monkeys are not little humans. They see the world differently to us. Some things that distress you might not distress a monkey, and vice versa. Clearly they do not live ideal lives in a cage, even a really large cage. But their wild lives are very brutal indeed. Rhesus macaques have large fangs which are weapons for use on other monkeys. They murder each other and each others children, and even their own children constantly is the truth.
I do agree with you totally. Having read the article, a clever idea came to my mind. In reference to our “need” to use primates in science, why don´t we promote the use of all serious criminals lying in our prison facilities as guinea pigs for experimentation?
Surely we would be doing two great things for the betterment of the human species. On the one hand, we would be making use of the criminal population in a sensible and fair way, having them to pay back to society in a more fitting manner that just sitting around watching telly and smoking weed ( on our pockets). On the other hand, we would save the huge amount of money required to feed and care for this large population of criminals. The easiest way would be to strip all serious criminals (white collar ones included of course) from all of their human rights. No lawyers claiming mercy. Once a criminal one becomes automatically food for the lab. End of the problem, forever.
Computer models that the “climate emergency” is based on continually predict catastrophes that never occur as we reach the projected year of inevitable apocalypse, yet the same models when fed with all known data, cannot “predict” past events…
The US needs a big foreign enemy to keep its own fractious tribal culture(s) from falling apart. Periodically, old actors are given a vacation and new ones are called in. Russia played the role well for a long time, but then got tired. They came back for a bit, having been poked by the NATO stick, but weren’t really interested. The Muslims, having been harassed for generations, tried out for the part but couldn’t play it very well. The only other possibility at the moment is China. The problem with China is that they are too useful in other roles, which is essentially what this article is about. Not enough monkeys? We have plenty of monkeys in the West. Just look around.
I suppose that at some point, we might well have to choose between the USA or China for our so called special relationship or find some way of trying to be best friends with both of them. Heave help us if we ever have to make a choice
The choice seems obvious and happily it is one we have already made. Our tolerance of China quite rightly is and will continue to go into reverse in order to preserve our way of life. The CCP are evil.
In the end it might come down to ‘He who pays the piper calls the tune’ and we will have to choose which ever one looks like the best bet for our future. I wouldn’t be quite so sure as you. To use Gove’s phrase ‘, there are going to be a few bumps in the road ‘ before we reach a smooth way ahead. God help us if Russia and China come to some sort of agreement on ‘mutual cooperation’ and God help,us if the USA loses its way.
It occurs to me from the fear stoking yellow peril comments in the article and below that some credit the CCP with planning and executing the most amazing acts of commercial, intellectual and cultural warfare against other nations. They have massive problems at home with corruption, fraud, illicit drug manufacture, pollution etc. With near totalitarian control they should be as adept at solving these issues as they supposedly are at stopping our flow of monkeys for experimentation. Leaving aside the ethical questions raised by playing Mengele with monkeys surely its not so much the Chinese are cleverer than us? Its more our politicians are incredibly stupid by comparison, and hell bent on dragging our societies down to their level. The Chinese reward intellectual effort, innovation and commerce as long is doesn’t rock the CCP boat. For some reason the UK ruling party elite seem to fear learning and hard work as much as they fear imbecilic boat rockers like Piers Corbyn as if he were Mao on the Long March. That tells us all we need to know about their intellect and morals, or lack thereof.
The Chinese leadership seems to be getting everything right. They are buying up mineral assets in Africa and property everywhere. I don’t know what they think about human caused climate change, but they treat it as the fraud it is. If the Chinese can live with the constraints imposed on them, it isn’t working out too badly. In comparison the west is run by idiots.
I have been resisting the urge to make this comment all day but after a couple of long necks and a cone i can’t stop myself. Are we sure this guy’s name doesn’t contain a typo? I mean Bogan wisdom will always opine “you gotta watch these yella fellas mate, they’re wily oriental gentlemen”
You should have desisted; the cone must have addled your brain. The Cubans and the Venezuelans are just as bad an not “yella” and not as powerful. Nothing wrong with Chinese people just the evil CCP.
I think you’ve missed my point, i think the piece is sinophobic and for some reason thought the writer is an Aussie cos he wrote for the SCMP. He isn’t. Bogan is an Aussie term equating to Rube in US English and i think possibly Chav in UK but its not as perjorative as Chav. Bogans are salt of the earth types, often have mullets and tattoos, typically blunt of speech and fond of liquor and weed. Think Bon Scott c1976. Not sure where the LatAm stuff comes from – Communists in Cuba and Venezuela have failed to change society in any meaningful way compared to Mao and the CCP. As with most fake prejudice accusation its utter madness – my wife of nearly 40 years is Chinese and my second language is Spanish!
..
The author obviously isn’t a Bogan – he has teeth. Equally his words are just not sinophobic just mildly and appropriately critical of the evil CCP.
I think Cubans and Venezuelans may disagree with you that those communist regimes have not brought meaningful change. Clearly they have. Just not for the better. But at least not as murderously as Mao.
It’s not prejudice to abhor the CCP regime; its politics. My loathing is more in sympathy with the Chinese people than anything else, or at least those Chinese who live under their control. The CCP is not benign; they are seriously dangerous to the Chinese, dangerous to the Taiwanese dangerous to us and if anything we have let it go too far because our greed has trumped our morality.
In case you have not read it, “Hidden Hand” by Clive Hamilton and Mareike Ohlberg sets out how the Chinese Communist Party is manoeuvring to became the world’s leading power. The subtitle is “Exposing how the CCP is reshaping the World”…
Surely the solution is to offer payment in peanuts.
That is appalling on so many levels. Looking at their human rights record I dread to imagine monkeys’ rights. Another reason for becoming more self-sufficient.
Using terms such as ‘domination’ in reference to China is irresponsible. It projects a jingoistic aim desiring a warlike stance and is wholly inappropriate. China has the most successful global economy and will soon eclipse the economic power and reach of the USA. This is at the root of the current aggressive western stance we are seeing so often these days and is a symptom of elite western paranoia rather than anything else. Our elites are convinced that only they continuing to judge, monitor and manipulate world events can assure stability and the rue of law. This stance comes from a long history that has by no means proven the above case. Genocide, slavery, colonialism and in recent years regime change justified by half-truths and outright lies have not produced a stable and just world, but in fact the opposite. It’s time to stop supporting this myopic devotion to western elitism and acknowledge that China is no enemy and her increased reach shows every sign of bringing the goal of a stable and peaceful planet to actuality rather than the constant belligerence and exceptionalism demonstrated by the West.
I run a small science based marketing company. https://marketwise.co.uk. Over the last 10 years, I’ve witnessed exponential growth in the amount of researchers and institutions that are based in China. Obviously almost all are government backed. They are researching every imaginable advanced topic.
It feels like we haven’t seen anything yet, the West is asleep at the wheel, it could already be too late to keep up.
COVID-19, with all its travel restrictions, had meant closed borders for different countries.In Australia, a border worker at Auckland Airport has been found to be positive for coronavirus. The airport’s employee belonged to the group of fully vaccinated border workers. The Ministry of Health has confirmed that COVID-19 protocols of contract tracing, isolating and interviewing have commenced.
It seems odd, given the public concern over animal research (and suffering in particular) that we are not investing in research to find ex vivo and in vitro alternatives to NHPs. It doesn’t seem too far-fetched to speculate that advances in genetics and bioengineering could lead to development of an ex vivo ‘model’ of the human immune system that would 1. Give more reliable and meaningful results than infecting macaques with viruses and measuring their immune response, and 2. Cost a lot less than $10K to produce.
Sounds like research has become just another big business. I wonder how much of this research is actually really essential and what the so called benefits are…..apart from increasing profits of pharmaceutical companies?
The thing about research is that you don’t know it’s essential till you’ve done it, and any large advance relies on many smaller previous advances, the benefit of which is not always obvious till it’s used. For example, I am developing a new form of brain scan. This may well help detect the early phases of Alzheimer’s. I’m doing it using marmoset monkeys. My paper cites about 50 other papers. One of those, for example, was from a lab at Monash university in australia, where they mapped the motor areas of the marmoset brain, in 2008. I need that information to proceed, but in 2008 they didn’t do it to help me, they just did it because it’s the thing to do. I recently found that the woman who did that paper in 2008 was attacked by animal rights activists for doing “pointless research”. It’s not pointless just because it’s not clear exactly how it will be used. Her attackers simply lack sufficient knowledge to understand how research works in a general sense. From a scientists perspective, it’s obvious that mapping marmoset motor cortex will probably come in handy. Basically it’s sort of your attitude that’s killing medical research in the west actually. That’s the truth of it. Becuase we (academic scientists rather than commercial) are funded by general taxation. Compared to other area of public spending, we cost very little and produce rather a lot. But this naive attitude you and very many others have about what is useful and what is not, filters through into funding decisions, so that we have to show immediate benefit when we apply for money, even though everyone invloved knows that’s not how science works. It works by slowly gathering knowledge.
It has crossed my mind that there are exciting work opportunities in China. An entire department at Max Planck recently moved to China. They just put their equipment on a ship and left Germany. China a much more supportive environment. They fund it because it’s in their national interests. They don’t care what people think, they just do it. That said the Chinese population seem entirely happy with the idea that China might lead the way in making medical and other scientific adavances. In the west we used to be that way too.
Thanks Anne, very useful contribution. If you need EARA’s support, you can catch me here [email protected]
Thanks for that Kirk.
Thank you for your excellent insight on research related challenges and the casual attitude of the unsuspecting public. It was Nikola Tesla who drew our attention to the ‘boldness of ignorance.’ I dare say, it’s making its round in all spheres of human endeavours; while the Chinese are quietly advancing their hegemony by exploiting the dividends of the institutions and infrastructure in the West.
We are yet to coin a world to account for a communist state that exploits both the capitalist systems and its people as well as people that live in autocratic regimes. When we do, the whole world will wake up from its deep slumber.
They are hugely exploiting the institutions and infrastructure of the west. They are plunduring us for training and expertise really. But we make no attempt to stop them. And if they want to pay scientists a good wage and give them good facilities and a good bureacratic environment for their work, then I think that is something to consider as a rational indviidual person. They have energy to succeed, like we had after the second world war. There have been many chinese friends and colleagues at my institution for many decades now, most of whom changed their first names to be more pronouncable for us. Perhaps it is time for me to learn their language instead.
Well, if the research is inessential, it can’t be used, and if it can’t be used, it can’t really help with “increasing profits of pharmaceutical companies”, can it?
Besides, what’s wrong with that anyway? The alternative is state science – Lysenko, eugenics, climatology. Those all went really well.
We basically do have state science, in terms of actual research. Its done in universities isnt it. Drug companies or private companies arent really interested in because the returns take too long. It’s one area where state funding is essential in practice. It doesnt really cost much though and it tends to sprout a lot of private enterprise nearby.
You have to remember that science and scientists have a bad name because of Covid – everyone wants someone to blame. Scientists are easy because, unlike you, they don’t join in these conversations, which are more for PPE students.
I worked in university research for about 5 years and, as you imply, there were Research Fellows there who only thought of the next two years’ grant – no ambition, no urgency. Which is why I left and went into manufacturing, which would not pay enough for research because it wanted profits NOW.
Today, if anybody makes a profit it becomes (drum roll) Big Business, a distasteful thing which is something to frighten your children with. But I have visited manufacturing sites in Asia, where they do things properly; the scientists really know their business. I guess we are frightened of them and feel more cuddly when we think of the USA – a country which is overrated science-wise, except in the development of armaments.
I didnt really know we had a bad name because of covid. We didnt cause that. There wasnt any time to figure it out and gather information and find an agreement. Science isnt really a rapid response thing. I mean the vaccine stuff has gone well, but no one knows how to handle things with lockdowns or not or whatever. How can anyone know that? No one really listens to scientists anyway, they just pick and choose what they want to hear. I live in the UK but at the moment I tele work with an american group. America is still far ahead of most places for neuroscience but it’s in terminal decline and china already won. The reasons are cultural. Europe doesnt really get a look in. Its about the use of monkeys. You have to use them in neuroscience because their brains are more like ours than those of rats. The Europeans reject that outright, Americans partially reject its and the Chinese embrace it. They see the opportunity to beat us. They are taking it.
I mostly enjoy your posts and debate points, but this constant harping on the US becomes tiresome-surely you can make your often cogent arguments without these compulsive digs…
Hilariously naive. “what the so called benefits are” …of research? of safe medicine? With attitudes like that the west is doomed. You will not have to worry about big business when the CCP runs and owns everything nor monkey testing because they will have no qualms about using humans. Oh and my granny’s pension comes from pharma dividends.
What a ridiculous and utterly stupid comment.
Are we sure we want to use animals anyway? SARS, MERS, COVID, AIDS are diseases that have come to us from animals. Do vaccines developed using animals not make humans more susceptible to animal born diseases. Also scientists have been creating human animal hybrids in the lab and then experimenting on them before killing them. This is like something orcs and trolls in the Lord of the Rings
“Do vaccines developed using animals not make humans more susceptible to animal born diseases”
Astounding!
3 science GCSE’s should be a minimum requirement for eligibility to vote.
GCSEs not being worth the paper they are written on. I suppose you have some though, and consequently think you are well educated.
I am heartened to hear that China is playing an ever more dominant role globally. This can only herald a world more closely aligned with the ethos of finding mutually beneficial agreement rather than indulging in divisive aggression as we see constantly from the USA and UK. I welcome the rise of China as our world’s most hopeful sign of future unity of purpose through trade and not through the present trading of insults as generated almost exclusively by western nations. All power to the wiser heads of China I say!
Is this irony? If not, I agree with you.
We tend to be afraid of China because it is different. We love the USA (with all of its weapons) and feel cuddly when we watch all their movie stars strut their stuff. I can assure you that, except for armaments, China is about 20 years ahead of the USA in its science and development. They will win the battle and the USA will have to use its armaments and concoct reasons to step in.
Probably all the Uighers are helping in the “scientific”
experiments -albeit unwillingly. Does it remind you of a similar situation in the not too distant past?
It reminds me of the constant interfering by the USA in the politics of South America, of the decision to invade Viet Nam to save the world from communism, of making Cuba an enemy of the state because it had the wrong politics, thereby making the people of Cuba suffer. It reminds me that the USA can use its technology to kill everybody, not just one group of people.
Well…the USA is not up to 100 million yet-as are the freedom loving “others” who “interfered in the politics of Cuba and the rest of the world…but we digress again, don’t we Chris?
The ‘logic’ of anti-Americanism (as opposed to valid critiques) is always, ‘the enemies of America must be fine and dandy’. No, a sharing of enmity does NOT make an ally. Look closely, be objective. Don’t be a ‘useful idiot’
I mostly prefer British movie stars-who rarely strut.
No we are afraid of China because they put their people in education camps and drive tanks over protesters. The CCP killed more than Stalin and Hitler together.
Taiwan’s independence from China needs to be recognised so we do not abandon the Taiwanese as we have the people of Honk Kong.
Troll
So, this site is not a free site for discussion? If in doubt revert to name calling. See the posts below by a research scientist who will tell you what is really going on in the world as you sit in front of your computer.
Read Allan’s other comments on Disqus. David is correct.
Discussion, yes, state sponsored propaganda, no.
It’s the perfect plan for a Bond movie to rule the world: Dr Evil’s biolabs concoct the virus and its vaccine simultaneously; then create a pandemic; supply the antidote to the rest of the world but only in exchange for trade, political and military concessions. Rinse and repeat. I think it’s a winner as a movie :-))
And as world domination.
5 comments, all praising China and criticising the USA. Transparent or what? Up your game mate, you are fooling no-one.
you are heartened at becoming a subject? Okay, but I doubt you’ll like it much.
Go and discuss that with some Uighur’s (if you can find them).
Oh dear. More “bipolar world” drivel from you Allen. Course the evil west rejects the “good actors” in Russia and China. Except of course the are both rotten oppressive regimes. We need less contact with them not more.
Which is it: a) your looking for a rise? b) employed by CCP? c) Your an engineer and so have dictatorial tendencies?