Remember the ‘comedian’ Kathy Griffin holding up for the cameras a bloodied severed head of Trump just after he was elected? Or Madonna on TV saying she wanted to blow up the White House? And Maxine Waters exhorting her followers to take to the streets and revolt? I guess that sort of thing is acceptable to the media elite.
Interesting that you ignore calls for violence – and for some reason, skate right past those calls from elected members of Congress – while unable to show where Trump’s words precipitated the Capitol event.
The principle of free speech does not include different guidelines for politicians, celebrities, and common folks. But, yes; when someone with name recognition is actively calling for violence, it might worthy of discussion.
Yes, I did skate right past the Maxine Waters comment, because the media *did* make a big deal about that. A simple google search would show that.
And surely you can see the absurdity of saying “what about what Madonna said” on a discussion about the leader of the free world’s rhetoric and actions leading up to a deadly riot at America’s seat of power.
And calm down mate no one’s talking about limiting free speech. That explains big tech doing the bidding of the Dem party in going after opponents. And it explains AOC’s notion of a commission to ‘rein in’ the media.
It’s not just Waters. It was also the House Speaker. It was also the incoming VP, who also championed a bail fund for arrested protesters. No one suggested that any of these three be stripped of office. No one even suggested a meaningless censure.
You really are missing the point. Apart from anything else, it is sending a signal that will encourage the rioters. You can do what you like and there will be no consequences.
Good – about time someone pointed that out! It does not matter which side you are – if you cannot understand why Trump’s stirring of the simpletons’ mob creates a “clear and present danger” of precedent, you are being partial enough to deserve being ignored in constructive discussion.
Everyone has the right to speak in a free democracy, and before the left progressive censor cancel cult arrived , good and bad speech in the free market of ideas usually met a just fate.Free speech served the democracies who observed it well, to become places all in the world wanted to be.The totalitarian tyrannies that imposed their thought monopolies o humanity…many have failed and fallen, and the human traffic is escape from them to free democracies of the more stable, prosperous…and free west.
Don, imagine that I would stir up a psychopatic neighbour of yours with bald lies, convincing him that you are the sole cause of his personal misery and that by right he should break into your house and hang you from a noose. Would you defend my actions under the guise of “freedom of speech”? How about I complain that you are trying to “cancel” my opinion? I am sorry if this comes across as harsh, but it is a direct and fair comparison to your argument above. Think about it for a moment – Trump stirring simpletons to commit crimes has no relation whatsoever with freedom of expression in any shape or form.
Andre, you are making the sounds and rationales of the liberal left progressives , who have incited and condoned violent insurrectionist revoloution mobs with scores killed and estimated 2 billion dollars in damage, as well as in incite hate , persecution , censorship, ,impoverishment to any and all noncompliant dissenting citizens.As usual, you and the left are far more verifiably guilty of your accusations than your targets. In your hypothetical example, both the individual who incited violence and the one who committed it are subject to existing criminal.law and due process …no need for a free democracy to have you appoint yourself monitor ,police, judge , jury and executioner in your hypothesis Suppresing free speech is the act of totalitarian tyrannies.
and that by right he should break into your house and hang you from a noose
You would probably find yourself facing a charge of incitement. If you had only told the guy that his neighbour was the cause of all his problems, you wouldn’t.
The problem with your scenario is that Trump didn’t actually tell his fans to hang anyone. He told them to walk to the Capitol and make a lot of noise. Awkwardly for you, he even told them to do it peacefully, twice I think.
How are you going to find Trump guilty of incitement when he specifically instructed the demonstrators to be peaceful? I’m sure you and lots of other people are convinced that Trump didn’t really mean that – but how are you going to prove it?
Nobody who brought a noose to the Capitol tried to hang anyone from it, just like none of the BLM/Antifa or assorted leftist anti-Trump activists who set up a guillotine at one of their protests tried to actually behead anyone. In both causes the objects were being used as symbols, albeit very tasteless ones, but maybe that was the point.
But you do not have the right to shout ‘Fire’ in a crowded theatre. This is the simple and inviolable principle that bears on the words and actions of Trump and Hawley.
I believe that the actual quote from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. is to “falsely yell fire”. Now, of course it would be better to quietly point out such a conflagration to police or staff so they can assist people out before the danger of lost human life. But a proper and necessary allowance for human frailty must be nurtured if we’re not to become a police state. Some people will inevitably panic when they see a fire. That’s just the way it is.
Now, whatever you think of the above, how are Trump and Hawley’s words and actions so much worse than those of Waters, Pelosi, and Harris, or of a number of blue state governors and big city mayors?
Again, genuine request; point me to the speeches or other means by which he incited the riot. Preferably something as glaring obvious as the speeches and actions of the Democrats inspiring up the preceding four years of rioting, looting, burning and killing.
Let me help you with the English: “We are going to the capitol”. ” If you don’t fight like hell you’re not going to have a country anymore”. “We will stop the steal”. Out of sheer fanaticism you may try to “interpret” these phrases as innocent or peaceful, but such interpretation does not really matter. What counts is that Trump lost the election (and this is beyond dispute), his words above will get him impeached and delusional “interpretations” cannot change the facts. But feel free to believe whatever you wish – as long as you respect the law, you’re free to believe in Trump’s victory, Santa Claus or whatever else that rocks your boat.
This seems fairly mild, and requiring of far more reading between the lines, than the vicious incitement by the Dems over the last (4) year(s), but you, too, are free to read into it what you want. And I have made no comment, as far as I can remember, on whether he won or lost the election; your attribution to me of sentiments I have not expressed weakens your arguments.
But feel free to believe whatever you wish – as long as you respect the law
My concern is also that the law is respected. But that means Trump doesn’t get convicted of incitement, because he did not instruct or encourage anyone to break the law and he specifically told the demonstrators to go “peacefully” to the Capitol.
To get someone convicted of a crime, there needs to be solid proof: in this case you need words spoken by Trump that cannot reasonably be interpreted in any other way than inciting lawless behaviour.
If you want Trump’s words to be enough to get him locked up, you need vaguer laws and broader restrictions, the kind that exist in tyrannies like the Soviet Union or China, where a wide range of actions can be interpreted as criminal or antisocial or anti-state in order to silence any opposition.
“Go to the Capitol” (a public place all Americans have the right to go to); ” fight like hell” (something politicians tell their supporters all the time), “the election was stolen” (something Hillary still moans about)…and if you were to apply the same standards to speech that frequently came out of the mouths of Democrats this past year, you would have to convict them for incitement too. Don’t get me wrong; I wish Trump had tempered his speech more. But standards need to be applied equally.
It does not matter which side you are – if you cannot understand why Trump’s stirring of the simpletons’ mob creates a “clear and present danger” of precedent, you are being partial enough to deserve being ignored in constructive discussion.
But if “clear and present danger” were all that was required, without any reference to “imminent lawless behaviour”, you could prosecute anyone who calls for a demonstration or protest where violence is likely to break out – like the BLM demonstrations or Occupy demonstrations, anti-Trump marches and even the civil rights marches from the 1960s.
As I understand it, the “clear and present danger” refers specifically to the danger of “imminent lawless behaviour” that is incited. Saying “the election was stolen” is not incitement – it might be reckless and unstatesmanlike and irresponsible and inflammatory, but that is not the same as incitement.
Give me a break; the left with its MSM allies had been “stirring the simpleton’s [sic] mob” , fanning the flames of disorder and instability for nine months before that, with no repercussions. I don’t know where people get this idea that the US Capitol is any more sacred or worthy of protection than any other federal building. Or did the lives of terrorized federal employees in Portland matter less than those of Members of Congress in D.C.? Riots of any kind are disgusting, but brazen and rank hypocrisy is equally disgusting.
As a matter of interest, can you point me to the speech(es) in which he incited these actions please? This is a genuine request; I have been unable to find any and would like to see the evidence upon which this charge is based.
As I have asked, politely and genuinely, where will I find the speech(es)? It will be so damning that it must be all over the internet but I am unable to find it, which might be solely due to my incompetence so, please, post a reference.Your non-response detracts from your plausibility.
Sorry J A, you are not unable to locate Trump’s phrases (“fight like hell”, etc.) which are all over the press for the whole planet to read. What you are trying is to “interpret” Trump’s vile words as something other than an incitement to the violence that followed. And if you refuse to acknowledge the connection, it is pointless for me to point it out. Good night.
“Fight like hell” is NOT an incitement to violence. You can “fight” (“like hell” or otherwise) by speaking in public, writing letters or emails (as here on Unherd), attending rallies, marching peaceably, even chanting in rhythm. And I’m pretty sure you’d recognize that fact if it was someone you liked who said or wrote the phrase.
Tom, as I wrote in response to J A ‘s similar “argument” in another thread, I am glad that your playing-down of Trump’s stirring up of the mob is inconsequential. The people who will decide Trump’s fate are not married to the illusions you guys keep “arguing”. But go ahead “fighting like hell” as you wish, provided you don’t break the law. Trump did, and will now pay for it. Regardless of whatever interpretation you may have of the facts.
Instead of ‘fight like hell’ he should have said ‘protest peacefully’ as the TDS MSM is able to make anything mean anything they wish. (and as we know Peaceful Protesting can mean anything up to and including killing, looting, arson, vandalism, and violence)
I was interested in finding out what proof the left liberal Democrats were presenting to support their accusation of incitement of violent mob insurrection against their political rival President Trump.It seems to centered on the line,”If you not going to fight like hell, you are not going to have a country anymore.” Rhetoric like this and far more pointedly violent mob inciting and insurrectionist has launched many actual left mobs violence, destruction , assaults, deaths in the multitude of left riots all last year during the pandemic. I do not think that line would be proof of the charge, but we are living in a world where the left is falsely accusing dissenters of things are more guilty of to silence and persecute them. When Jan 21 comes and passes , the Democrats obsessive spiteful hate of hurrying the lynching and humiliation of Trump and Democrat Pelosi wide eyed fear mongering we have to get him out before he nukes will be seen as more false defamatory alarms and they will have failed to remove him as he finishes his term, their rush to impeachment failed , and their reason for haste unnecessary and false. Americans and the world will see a unjustly persecuted Trump,and the delayed impeachment long after the horse left the barn will.be seen as hateful spite and a moot point ,even if it does pass to guilty , which it may not. Really looks like the newly governing liberal Democrats mostly shot themselves in the foot on this one, their first act in.power.
IT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID, BUT WHAT HE WAS THINKING. Speech is free, it is wrong thought which is punishable. Dorsey and Zukerberg and Pilosi and all the MSM understand this, why can’t you?
Alex point is that there plenty of left wing voices that have incited violence and gives specific examples and evidence , yet the left are currently silencing, deplatforming , destroying and impoverishing only their political rivals with this hypocritical , virtue signaling accusation. Even when given verifiable evidence of incitement to violence , woke censor trollsclike yourself evade that truth with irrelevant segues. Your posts prove the left is guilty of everything they falsely accuse and smear their targets with to silence dissent.
“Deadly riot”? Lol, after all the deaths in the riots of last summer…exactly one person was definitely and deliberately killed, and that was an unarmed protester, by police. And since when did “America’s seat of power” acquire the sacredness of the Forbidden City? Most of the people who entered the US Capitol were allowed in by security. A minority of them engaged in wanton violence and vandalism, and were rightly arrested and charged for it. Strangely, though, they set nothing on fire (maybe burning down buildings something only the left like to do when they riot). Also interesting that a major participant and instigator in the riot, who has since been arrested, was a former well-known BLM member and agitator. Did Trump’s “rhetoric and actions” incite him, too? Police got all the intruders out of the building within an hour or two. I’m not disagreeing it was a riot, but as riots go, it was a pretty tame one.
Maxine Waters and the VP elect also said far more specific speech that encouraged violence. The actors have a high profile opportunity that regular citizens don’t have and endorsed more specific violence against the President of the US. So yes, they are grouped in there.
I fear that opinions of pop stars – and late night “comedians” are very relevant. Since the first day of Trump’s election, the likes of Stephen Colbert, etc who have huge audiences amongst the bi-coastal elites have done nothing but make fun of Trump and his supporters in the most demeaning of ways. They didn’t even need writers – just riff off the daily headlines. Talk about incitement –they are masters of the art.
It got so bad that I gave up years ago and longed for the return of the best – and a-political nighttime host – Johnny Carson.
Johnny Carson was wonderful, and the kind of comedians who provide us with entertainment are arguably a necessary part of our lives. But there always have been those comedians who are social and political satirists and comedians who provide us with perspectives that are often taboo in some way. Charlie Chaplin and Lenny Bruce immediately come to mind as well as George Carlin. Showing the other side of “truth” is not incitement. It is wisdom.
I quite agree, but the days of the comedian who makes fun of anyone and everything without bias, have given way to comedians who have only one stance and appear blind to anything which runs counter to their narrative, no matter how ‘funny’ that thing may be. No-one has laughed at Kamala, Nancy or AOC, or Joe, regardless of how ludicrous they have been – and, my god, have they been ludicrous. You do not need script, a straight recitation of some of their behaviour would have anyone in stitches – if it were not so deeply worrying!
George Carlin hated All Governments ,Banks,politicians See his ”politicians” If youtube hasn’t removed it..Thanks to Woke ”Comedians” in uk programmes purporting to be ”Funny” are risible ..especially iTV,BBC
Mark Russell and Mort Sahl are/were other even-handed satirists. (I believe that both are still alive, but haven’t from either in quite some time, hence the “are/were”.) Incidentally, Sahl’s career is an indication that Left or liberal hypocrisy about speech is not an entirely new thing. He rose to fame making jokes about President Eisenhower and Veep Nixon during the 1950s. But, when the Democrat John F. Kennedy was elected to succeed Ike as POTUS, he found that the nightclubs and other venues that had previously engaged him became far fewer in number. He remarked in a later interview with Playboy Magazine that such people were very dangerous. I’d have to agree, and say sadly that little has changed in 60 years.
Yeah, you would have a point if Trump made a video where he displayed something purporting to be the bloody severed head of Creepy Joe Biden or Crazy Nancy Pelosi. He didn’t, so you really don’t have a point to make.
Of course. The points about Madonna and Kathy Griffin is preposterous and laughable whataboutery.
Imagine trying to make a parallel between something an entertainer says to get a weak laugh and Trump telling the Proud Boys – a wannabe Freikorps – to ‘Stand by’? FFS.
They really are a bunch of pathetic, self-piteous, whiny losers. Just like their President! They deserve one another.
Unfortunately, in these times, that sort of people are the first stop of a large proportion of the population when it comes to looking for information or, rather, advice on how and what to think.
Wasn’t there a coven of witches that put a curse on Trump when he won the 2016 election? And didn’t the so-called “Democrats” start work on an attempt to bring about his fall right away? They failed again and again and I believe that whatever they try now Donald Trump will become a popular hero among people who have resisted the brainwashing attempts of the Main Stream Media hyenas.
Blimey Unherd is toxic, 12 upticks to 3 the other way to a statement without a shred of evidence. Trump is the most antiAmerican president to date – no respect for the rule of law, (don’t actually think he understands what the rule of law is – he has the attention of a toddler ) or respect for all court decisions. Thank God polls in the U.K. say that not one U.K. constituency would have voted for Trump. Every single on would support Biden. Bet that’s the same for every European country.
“Thank God polls in the U.K. say that not one U.K. constituency would have voted for Trump. “……… is the comment by Martin Butler that I am replying to – nothing to do with any US polls.
Actually, they did, didn’t they? Well, if you guess something often enough you are bound to have the odd success; still would not trust them to tell me the time, much like the BBC etc from whom a large number of those who will have been polled will have received their relentless anti-Trump indoctrination. Those of us who take the time to look beyond the legacy media and the Beeb may have a more nuanced view of the situation. Don’t get me wrong, I am not sure Trump would be a guest at my all time dinner party (although it could be interesting), but the Orange-man bad hysteria over here is almost as bad as it is with a section of the American public. And, on the most generous view of Joe, I fail to see why anyone would vote for someone who has done nothing in forty plus years. That he has any support from the black community is staggering considering the damage he has been complicit in visiting on their communities; remember, Kamala Harris had a lot against him until offered a place on the ticket, when all that was conveniently swept under the carpet.
OK, but I still think the understanding of the average UK citizen of what is happening in America is highly distorted by the BBBc and the legacy media. The hypocrisy of the media (and the Democrats in general) is breathtaking.
I love most of the content on Unherd, but I agree most of the comments here have a disappointing lack of focus on the main issue. An incumbent president, facing defeat at the polls, built a false narrative of a stolen election, and his actions in pursuit of remaining in power led to a riot. This should be what people keep in mind when they comment about whether or not they like Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden or the Democrat agenda.
Maxine Walter is a liberal Democrat political leader on proven record of inciting violence, and is currently rushing to try to impeach a political rival and President of something she is guilty of.
Splitting hairs a bit, there. She’s still a political leader, a LAWMAKER, and as obligated by her position and her oath to uphold law and order as the President is. She instead used her position and influence to encourage her followers to break the law. And so what if the media covered it? The media obsessively covered everything Trump did or said for four years, too. Lack of coverage is not the point; the point is how much criticism and backlash she received from the MSM, which was very little.
Elvis Costello once told a journalist he wanted “Michael Howard’s head on a platter with an apple in it’s mouth”. Wonder how this would go down if some hero of the right said the same thing about Biden.
You would hear the squealing from outer space, I should think. Or imagine if someone on the right pulled a stunt like Kathy Griffin’s, holding up a severed head of the President like a member of ISIS. Such antics are disgusting no matter which side does them.
Fantastic picture of the Pilosi standing on a massive dais flanked by two huge Fasces on each side of her! How utterly perfectly it shows her true self and purpose. Only thing wrong is the American Flag directly behind her, which should be changed for a flag with a black, raised, fist.
Not to mention a British comedian who shall remain nameless urging people on national ratio to attack Nigel Farage with acid.
G Harris
3 years ago
America has been, as somebody once described, in the grip of a low level civil war for sometime, and actions such as this are so obviously purely and cynically politically motivated.
Only a fool would claim that this piece of political theatre will pour oil on the troubled waters of the toxic climate that persists in the US at the moment.
Few would condone the storming of the Capitol that day but, equally, one wonders who would condone the ironically named Democrats’ near insatiable, interminable, all consuming efforts to remove the previously elected president of the United States over the last five years by any spurious means possible rather than, god forbid, actually do their job and put forward any genuine, considered political alternative to his political agenda over that time.
“rather than, god forbid, actually do their job and put forward any genuine, considered political alternative to his political agenda over that time.” The Democrats have done so unceasingly. However their proposals have generally been blocked by the Republican-held Senate.
“…the Republican-held Senate.” Which was elected. I can view the attack on Trump as being catastrophically stupid without being a Trump supporter. I am neutral and cannot imagine voting for either the Democrats or the Republicans – When civil war beckons then don’t expect sweet reason to come to the fore.
Not low level civil war. But a full scale CULTURAL war. United States of America is in reality three regions or blocks of States. The Regions are: 1 – East Coast is liberal and radical. 2 – West Coast is liberal and debt laden. 3 – Central States are very conservative. 1+2 believe CNN, NY Times; Washington Post; 3 believes Fox News. Will the 3 regions agree on the cultural future? No chance IMHO.
Well said. It is not only the geographic blocks that divide the US. It is the reality that groups of people have been made invisible and have little to no voice, regardless of where they may live. Much of what it going on has to do with the disenfranchisement felt by blue collar workers and service workers, and the low level hum of racial hatred against black people, those perceived as minorities, and the virtual nonexistence in discourse of American Indians. As long as government is not focused on all the people, there will always be an undercurrent of dissatisfaction fueling the kinds of things we are seeing now.
I have said before, America’s Trump was Britains Brexit; a cry from the heart of those masses neglected and despised by the people who were supposed to be looking after their interests. I find the parallels between the Brexit process and the polarisation it has caused (or brought out into the open) and the Trump saga quite remarkable.
I’m with you for the first part, JT. However, there the parallels end; the polarisation in the UK over Brexit is a typically understated irritated piss-taking. Whereas the level of visceral hatred between the two wings in the US is palpably frightening – even from 3,600 miles away.
If it teaches us, in the UK, anything; it is that we must resist the advance of American style polarising politics with every means we have. There are many things to be admired out of American culture, but their politics isn’t one of them.
Yes. To do that we need to not adopt their polarising critical race theories. There has been some movement on that. We need to not adopt their extreme libertarianism or jump onboard their their neo conservative wars.
Thank you. I agree entirely that the temperature of the debate here is much lower than in the US (thank god). In fact, I nearly made that point in my original comment. I’m reminded of Victoria Wood who, apropos of something she had commented on said “there will be a riot….all over England (or it may have been Solihull) people will be going …” at which point she shrugged her shoulders, rolled her eyes and sighed. Very funny (one of the comedians I wish there were more of now!) We tolerate a hell of a lot before we take to the streets, but if the present situation continues, I do wonder if even we will eventually be driven to it. I am 72 but would be prepared to join in if it became the only option. However, as with the Capitol event, open rebellion could be just what ‘they’ intend in order to facilitate even more crackdowns on our freedoms. We are in one hell of a dilemma.
Agreed Chicago is liberal and its large population wins the State. However rural Illinois is conservative in its cultural views. Similar voting pattern/views as NY NY and New York State.
They are illiberal Liberals.. Trump wanted Less Taxes for Blue collar workers,;,cheap energy.. Senile Biden &his sheep have Accepted Paris Protocol,already Energy prices are rising from 4 years of below inflation rises!
A good calm read – I’ve been waiting many days for this.
Having seen the first hour of the Capitol disturbance, it became obvious that no calm or impartial coverage would follow on any U.K. MSM channel, and they would be just re-running excitable US coverage uncritically, without analysis – and without end.
Yet another reason not to trust or watch BBC News …
None of the “news” outlets carried the peaceful protest that was taking place the majority of the day, nor the videos of Trump supporters trying to stop the ones trying to break in. After the impeachment the fbi admits they have arrested an Antifa member and that this was a planned event thus Trump not the one who instigated the breach of the capital. Are they going to overturn this disgusting rush to impeachment?
It’s not clear if the impeachment can be reversed. Irrational emotional responses coupled with actual hatred produced the impeachment; regret may come after the next election. We expect representative leaders to be measured in their deliberations. Treating impeachment so casually will have long term consequences. Pelosi herself may represent more of a threat to democracy than Trump.
The entire leadership of the Democratic party represents a threat to freedom of speech and the freedom to vote for and support a political candidate they do not approve of. There are those who want a list of Trump supporters and enablers to be compiled so that punitive action can be taken against them; this includes the 70million plus who voted for him. They are prepared to punish half the electorate for having the temerity to have an opinion contrary to theirs and act upon it. They make MCarthy look sane. (Given how the left have marched through the institutions of the West to the point where we are today, I am beginning to wonder if Mcarthy did not have the right idea, even if it was badly executed)
It was Pelosi herself that called Trump a racist when he shutdown flights from China in late January in an attempt belatedly to stop the virus. Clearly she has no foresight.
No need Impeaching an outgoing president is illegal in the Constitution,I know Democrats like changing Voting procedures in Swing states ..
Alex Mitchell
3 years ago
The hypocrisy is jarring. The rhetoric in some outlets has been as if a highly trained private army was callously marching through the building slaughtering politicians with high powered assault weapons. But there are videos out there of the ‘mob’ keeping behind the ropes like they were on a guided tour. Compared to the ‘justified and mostly peaceful’ protests last year. Biden stated he was going to try to heal divisions within the US but before he’s even in power the Dems are stoking the fire with hyperbole. As I stated on another thread, someone needs to be the bigger person here to make.some progress. Trump failed in that over the last few weeks. Biden is not doing any better.
As I stated on another thread, someone needs to be the bigger person here to make.some progress. Trump failed in that over the last few weeks. Biden is not doing any better.
You are correct – but what price should the Republican members of Congress and Senate pay for supporting Trump’s claims that the “election was stolen”. I would pardon trump if Cruz, Hawley and Co resign from Congress/Senate. Otherwise you are asking the Democrats to be the bigger party (that is what you are asking!) while Republicans party – institutionally – supports and elects nutjobs.
“lack of evidence” – Nonsense. Evidence has not been heard. Cases were dismissed on procedural grounds without witnesses being called. The evidence remains nebulous at best but investigations are likely to continue for years. At issue is what to do if organized widespread fraud is revealed?
I can believe the Swamp considered their cause so noble that they would steal an election to stop Trump. You’ll need more than a few bits of grainy video footage to convince me that they did. It’s a country of 330million, you can probably prove aliens stole the election if you look hard enough.
The first rule of handling customer complaints is to acknowledge that the complaint exists not just deny it.
Thank you! This was what I said right from the start with Brexit, when the concerns of ordinary people were not even denied by the political class, but simply dismissed as the voicing of xenophobic racism.
The evidence is considerable that there was computer fraud carried out in the 2020 Presidential election (it could even be seen on TV recordings) it was massively over and above the usual endemic degree of voter fraud present in USA elections.
The Dems complained about fraud in 2016 election when Trump won, now it does not exist because they won.
Truth will not prevail in the present febrile atmosphere of a corrupt system, so there remains little point in debating it, until voters demand change, which may end up in revolution and/or the breakup of the Americian Federal State system, creating a much more dangerous world.
Republics do not last indefinitely,they eventually fail due to corruption, history stands in evidence of that.
But it wasn’t stolen. Trump had 61 court cases REJECTED for the lack of evidence. Members of congress have the right to free speech they also have the RESPONSIBILITY to manage the affairs’ of the state.
No, the courts didn’t hear the cases. I listened to the 4 hours of evidence presented to Georgia judiciary subcommittee- overwhelming, but nothing done. No one wanted to be responsible for overturning the election as they were afraid of the civil unrest. They took the path of least resistance. Every one deserves their day in court. If you have nothing to his, then prove it.
In a separate state case in Montgomery County, Pa., a judge asked Trump lawyer Jonathan S. Goldstein whether he was alleging fraud. “Your honor, accusing people of fraud is a pretty big step,” Goldstein said. “And it is rare that I call somebody a liar, and I am not calling the Board of the [Democratic National Committee] or anybody else involved in this a liar. Everybody is coming to this with good faith.” The judge pressed Goldstein to answer the specific question: “Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these 592 disputed ballots?” To which Goldstein replied: “To my knowledge at present, no.”
It is easy to call fraud when it supports your candidate. But what about the many years of voter suppression in the South and some other places where black people and poor people have been prevented from voting? This has been an ongoing problem that has never been fully resolved. The incompetence and dangerous actions by the outgoing president need to be the focus, along with finding and holding accountable those who enabled, encouraged and helped him because they are still sitting in their seats undermining the system of government.
How do you know it was not stolen? There were 2 kinds of fraud, paper fraud and computer fraud. The main fraud was via voting machines which were decommissioned immediately after the vote to destroy evidence. Only a few remained, when they were examined by independent analysts it was confirmed that the voting numbers had been manipulated. The outstanding point made was that votes were taken off Trump and added to Biden. In a closed system it would not be possible to subtract votes from any candidate only to add them. In addition the machines were capable of being connected to the internet and therefore open to hacking both domestically and possibly through foreign interference, for real this time; no wonder many voters feel they have been disenfranchised.
The final problem was created by SCOTUS refusing to take the case, had they done so the decision win or lose would have been final and some of the disharmony might have been avoided.
Confirmed by who, where? The head of Homeland security said there wasn’t fraud and that there was a paper trail on 95% of the votes. Bill Barr said there wasn’t significant fraud. The Republican governor and Republican head of elections in Georgia said there was no fraud. All the judges, including Trump appointed ones said there was no evidence of fraud presented. Only…. only Mr. Trump said there was fraud and he was famous as a liar before he did a cameo as a liar in Home Alone 2.
Globalists ONLY claim elections/ Referendums/referenda are Stolen if they dont like the result…..Only good to come out of SARS2 is the growing mistrust of News media,Worldwide.in UK BBC,ch4,ch5,ITV,Sky ….ineptitude of MPs who are qualified,classics scholars,or barristers but Cannot handle logistics..
There’s an assumption there that all the fault is on the republican side, which I would dispute. But yes, if you want to take it forward someone has to get away with something for the greater good. There are plenty who would argue, for example, that the IRA never got their just desserts in Northern Ireland, but the long term improvement made it worth it. Breaking the cycle includes breaking the blame/revenge part of it. Hard as that may be. I worry that the US politicians don’t have the maturity.
Forcing democratically elected Republicans to resign with a smear by association is an attack on democracy and those Americans voters democratic legal choices…and part of the the now obvious Purge of political opponents.. historically the act of totalitarian tyrannies.
BBC did here in Summer (Mostly peaceful) with Blm injuring 27 police and defacing statues..
David Probert
3 years ago
Trump was never really dangerous – Pelosi and those who backher are.
JR Stoker
3 years ago
Not to excuse Trump’s overheated rhetoric and inappropriate remarks, the bigger threat to the US system of government is Speaker Pelosi, who by her childish and arrogant conduct has heated things up and set an appalling example. Tearing up the President’s State of the Union speech in full public view whilst standing behind him says everything there is to say about this petulant politician and her contempt for American democracy. It is she who should be impeached.
No is the short answer. If they happen to be from opposite ‘party’ to the President, they are in effect Leader of the Opposition, as ‘we’ would say.
It is however a Constitutional requirement that they suffer as much plastic surgery and Botox as is humanly possible. On this count alone the present incumbent should be awarded a gold medal forthwith.
You’re seriously comparing Pelosi tearing up a speech to a president insisting at rally after rally and tweet after tweet that the election was rigged, all with zero evidence?
That’s like saying, Sure, Stalin was a bit rum, but the guy who fixed his car was an absolute monster.
Quit the “where’s the evidence” BS. There were thousands of affidavits and video footage of strange goings on in the counting rooms. What happened is the courts decided against hearing that evidence and forming a judgement based on it. Why? Well, depending on your point of view, either the evidence was too weak to prosecute, or the courts didn’t have the guts to take on such a momentous thing as overturning an election result, however fraudulently reached. There was, and is, “evidence” and it was taken through the appropriate legal channels. Pelosi and AOC are a more clear and present danger to American democracy than Trump. Their ridiculous exaggerations, assertions and the hypocrisy about his “incitements” make their own similar statements seem even worse, given the context. How are they allowed on social media?
Pelosi is a rank hypocrite; I don’t know how anyone can still respect her or take her seriously after the hair salon fiasco. Even after she was caught out she refused to just fess up and take ownership of it, instead playing the victim. Why do these people think they’re entitled, unlike their lowly minions, to break their own rules, just to get their damn hair done?
Joseph Berger
3 years ago
To summarize, for purely political purposes the democrats have hysterically over-reacted to a rioting that was mild in comparison to the destruction, looting, thuggery, thieveing, destruction of police cars, invasion of state capitols, that went on for weeks and months last summer – during the time of the pandemic.
No, I don’t think President Trump will risk his reputation – what is left of it – to run again in 2024, and more important, I think the Republicans have some excellent younger more moderate candidates who might very well run in 2024.
If, as we expect, the biden administration will essentially be the 3rd obama administration, then in 2022 the democrats may lose control of both houses, or if the time frame for them to totally screw up domestic policy and foreign policy is too short, then by 2024 without a doubt – when Harris will be their presidential candidate and the unbelievable stacy abrams VP candidate – then they will lose very heavily.
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Well, let’s see: since the impeachment, a known BLM guy has been arrested for his involvement in the Capitol fracas; so has the son of a Brooklyn judge, both of them Dems; and, separate news reports in print and broadcast include timelines that show things going wrong before Trump spoke.
The impeachment was personal, the opposition’s last act at piling on while also trying to send a message to the rest of us. Meantime, AOC is talking about a commission to “rein in” the media, whatever that means.
David Bell
3 years ago
I wonder if this process will be used against those politicians who support BML and Antifa protests?
The Democrats will live to regret what they have done. They have taken their revenge on Trump (and that is what it is) but the method of doing so has opened themselves to the same treatment!
kecronin1
3 years ago
Thank you for writing thoughtful journalism. I thought it had been all but extinct. I watched Trump’s speech. Nothing but slick marketing that we haven’t seen before, but it did not incite violence. It was obvious that the attack was pre-planned. By whom, I don’t know, but they looked like caricatures from a movie. That Pelosi jumped on the impeach bandwagon while our state is disintegrating before my eyes demonstrates what a reprehensible figure she is. Weeks ago I saw AOC giving skin care tips. In disbelief, I thought, ‘what would Anne Richards and Barbara Jordan – heroes when I was a kid – think of this?” Good God. That AOC gives nonsense that her life was in danger is as believable as the Netflix documentary giving rise to her fame. The only good thing coming out of all this is hopefully we stop looking to Washington for moral guidance as there is none. We need to vote in responsible local officials. Fortunately in LA, Janice Hand and Kathryn Barger are finally getting the attention they deserve. These women, one democrat and one republican, remember whom they serve.
You make an interesting point when you say: “It was obvious that the attack was pre-planned. By whom, I don’t know …”. Trump’s call for the rioters to cease and go home looked pre-recorded – released during twilight hours but apparently filmed in full daylight. I agree with the author of this article that Trump’s words, taken out of context, were not incitement. But, given the context, I think he knowingly incited the mob violence that followed.
But, given the context, I think he knowingly incited the mob violence that followed. How did he do that? I keep seeing that claim and it is no more than article of faith from people who either hate the man to start with or believe every word that comes from a media that also hates him. CNN and others are reporting that the incident looks to have been pre-planned, which is curious because CNN is among his staunchest haters. Yesterday, a BLM activist was arrested for his role in the fracas. You cannot say Trump’s words were taken out of context but blame him for the event anyway.
Absolutely not- most people at this rally had attended of trump rally’s which were all peaceful patriotic events. His speech was the same as his other speeches
Joel Birkeland
3 years ago
Consider that Trump is not impeached. He will likely run in 2024, he won’t have a chance at the Republican nomination, so he will run as a third party candidate, guaranteeing a Democratic Presidential victory. For this reason, and several others, the Republican party stands to gain the most from a Trump impeachment. Nancy Pelosi is not stupid. She knew she had to push impeachment through, but I suspect she knows there’s a very good chance it won’t come to a Senate trial. It’s so much better for the Democrats to have a bogeyman like Trump to drag out to energize their troops. Like Eric Hoffer said in The True Believer (paraphrasing here) “You can have a mass movement without God, but you can’t have one without The Devil.”
‘Consider that Trump is not impeached. He will likely run in 2024, he won’t have a chance at the Republican nomination, so he will run as a third party candidate, guaranteeing a Democratic Presidential victory. For this reason, and several others, the Republican party stands to gain the most from a Trump impeachment.’
Spot-on. I’m amazed that the numerous Trump-impeachment cheerleaders can’t see this.
That’s not the point. The Republicans stand to gain the most from a Trump impeachment because it could help them win next time. The argument is as follows:
If Trump is NOT impeached, he could run for President again. The Republican Party almost certainly could not accept him as their candidate at the next election; they would field an alternative candidate. However, given the size of his following, Trump might well stand again as an independent – and thus split the Republican vote.
With the right-wing vote split, the Democrats would almost certainly win.
If Trump IS impeached, he can’t run again, there is no risk of him splitting the Republican vote at the next election, and so the Republicans would have a vastly improved chance of winning.
The chance of Trump being anointed again by the Republican Party, after the damage he has already inflicted on it, is about the same as the chance of the Ancient Mariner scraping the dead albatross off the deck and draping it around his own neck.
Nancy Pelosi has not planned for the Trump Supporters(75 million votes) reaction to the House Motion. Stupid in my view, as it will solidify their resolve to back the next Republican Presidential Candidate supported by Trump.
I don’t think Trump will run again- he can do much more without the constraints of the out of control government
7882 fremic
3 years ago
I was just watching an episode of ‘El Chapo’ on Netflix, the one where the President of Mexico office is stolen by vote buying, harvesting, and intimidation, and thus a pro-Narco party takes control from the one which was anti Cartel. From beginning to end, less the shooting parts, it could read as an allegorical dramatization of the recent election in USA. The Dems are obviously the party of ‘pro’, and instead of cartel it is the six horsemen, Bezos, Gates, Zuckerberg, Dorsey, and Google, and the MSM, the global monopolies/oligarchs families.
The end was encouraging though, after using the El Chapo forces to win the shady election – the new President decides Chapo has outlived his usefulness so sets out to capture and extradite him. I guess this is where the Squad had the 6 cancel Trump and his side, manipulate the algorithms, and bury the ‘wrong’ stories and shovel out the right stories, till victorious, then will turn on them, and break such a dangerous tool, less it later be used on themselves.
So, yes, the Democrats are proving themselves much more dangerous than Trump ever could have been, but also that they will likely be equally dangerous to friend and foe alike, the Swamp always being what it is, the scorpion cannot help being a scorpion.
The Dems are obviously the party of ‘pro’, and instead of cartel it is the six horsemen, Bezos, Gates, Zuckerberg, Dorsey, and Google, and the MSM, the global monopolies/oligarchs families.
Historically it was the Republican party that relied on the rich people and corporations. Plenty of billionaires (Adelson, Schwartzman, Griffin) have donated money to Trump. He lost because more Americans hate him than adore him. Just like he lost the popular vote in 2016 and the mid-terms in 2018. He also lost the 2 seats in Georgia for senate.
No, he lost because more people wanted him out. He has lost 61 court cases
On Thursday, Fox News host Tucker Carlson lambasted Trump campaign lawyer Sidney Powell for claiming without evidence that glitches in electronic voting machines had improperly favored Biden. “She never demonstrated that a single actual vote was moved illegitimately by software from one candidate to another,” Carlson said. “Not one.”
In terms of factors that might affect an election, 2020 was not found wanting.
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
A fair minded and accurate article, for once. One of the people already arrested for the so-called Storming of the Capitol – which was really a Stroll Around the Capitol – is a far leftist. Or, essentially, a fifth columnist within the Trump supporters. And there were probably others like him.
Everybody should watch Jimmy Dore’s latest podcast with Chris Hedges to understand the true evil of the corporate Democrats.
The bozo rioters at the Capitol were undoubtedly inflamed by a barrage of lies and conspiratorial delusions that Trump churned out on an almost hourly basis since losing the election ” that’s beyond dispute.
How does the above fit your view that the election was stolen?
Everybody should watch Jimmy Dore’s latest podcast with Chris Hedges to understand the true evil of the corporate Democrats.
The evil democrats have pushed across the country for higher minimum wages and delivered (warts and all) Obamacare. If i was working class (and I am not) I take that evil any day. Especially since TrumpCare (Better, cheaper with more choice) is not coming anytime soon….
Leave off of “Obamacare” it was and is a bait and switch scheme that has made insurance more expensive or unavailable to most…evil indeed-“every family will save $2000.00” a lie, “if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor” a lie.
I did last night before going to bed and it kept me awake all night. I have no idea how many are in Dore’s audience,but I suspect not as many as those who watch Don Lemon or Rachel Maddow.
vince porter
3 years ago
Rioting, trashing businesses, theft, removing decent people from their homes, commandeering whole city blocks, etc. can now be done with impunity when the appropriate progressive agenda is invoked. Ideology speaks louder than actions which used to be criminal. The thugs who stormed the Capitol would have been well served if they had invoked Black Lives Matter which seems to have superceded Civilized Behavior Matters as the ultimate virtue.
J A Thompson
3 years ago
I have engaged in exchanges with various Americans via youtube in the past couple of weeks as well as looking at a number of videos. I have come to the conclusion that the most prominent members of the Democratic party and their most vociferous supporters are seriously deranged, and I do not use the term lightly. Nancy Pelosi, AOC, Kamala and Joe himself do not live in the real world. The violence being acted out seems to be coming entirely from the ‘left’ (there is some evidence that there were people from Antifa and BLM involved in the Capitol events, though I am not saying that Republicans were not involved at all) and the Democrat leaders on record as inciting and supporting that violence are many. Many Antifa and BLM rioters who were arrested were bailed, I am informed, using a fund set up by Harris and were later released without charges being pressed. And yet the media show nothing of that and their supporters will openly tell you that they were peaceful demonstrations and nobody was hurt and get very angry when you show them evidence to the contrary – evidence easily available to them if they were to look. The blind hypocrisy that I have seen during my attempts to engage with these people has left me breathless. As a, more minor, example of the insanity, with all that is going on, all the problems facing the US, the Democrats have chosen to introduce a bill outlawing the use of gender specific language in the house, i.e. no use of words like, mother, daughter, son, father – this is what is occupying their minds at this juncture. And then, in a speech on the impeachment, Nancy Pelosi rode a coach and horses through her own bill, using a myriad of gendered terms in her first few sentences. We are in for some seriously interesting times!
I have no doubt that there was a great deal of fraud in the recent presidential election, but it would only be marginal in its effect if there were not a vast reservoir of extreme stupidity in the USA.
How do you know any fraud ‘would only be marginal in its effect’ ? You have no way of knowing and nor does any one.
What I do know is that the Election was riddled with fraud and there needs to be a forensic audit. There are far too many coincidences for there not to have been some coordination in the fraud. The statistical data does not look plausible and requires a deep and independent investigation. But it seems that Biden is a usurper and Pelosi is a Traitor.
My point exactly. It doesn’t take much to turn an intensely stupid minority (just) into a “majority”.
Andy Yorks
3 years ago
All the bed wetting that is going on from the Democrats suggests all is not what it seems. Reminds one of the Turkish attempted ‘Coup’ the other year – oh so ‘convenient’ and oh so incompetent when the one thing the Turkish Army is good at is a Coup. Similarly none of this smells right. As the FBI had monitored some of the chat on Facebook & Twitter (Parler were not involved apparently) one is bound to ask why the building was virtually undefended. The hag Pelosi likes to play games, but I would have thought it was stupid beyond belief to allow any sort of incursion of the building lest you give others a few ideas. A small group of well armed terrorists could easily have taken almost the entire House & Senate hostage and murdered the lot of ’em. For Pelosi et all their hate of Trump is such that they show they have sh*t for brains.
G Harris
3 years ago
Not sure, but I think it was Theodore Roosevelt who said something like, ‘the rock of democracy founders when we come to see those who disagree with us simply as ‘the others’.
Despite the half-arsed, lame rhetoric coming thick and fast from Biden’s Democrats about healing and unifying the nation this impeachment can only have the effect of inflaming the already high passions of ‘the others’ many so clearly despise.
It’s not just plain stoopid, it’s bad politics quite frankly.
Simon H
3 years ago
“The bozo rioters at the Capitol were undoubtedly inflamed by a barrage of lies and conspiratorial delusions that Trump churned out on an almost hourly basis since losing the election ” that’s beyond dispute.”…?
Is it?
State prosecutors are already processing the vote riggers with the first already convicted, and without exception, all were processing in favour of Biden. Thousands more under investigation.
Biden is effectively PINO. His time will be short and chaotic. Im sorry for him. The blame lies with Pelosi, Clinton, Obama et al..
The US is behaving like a banana Republic. I personally don’t blame Trump.
100%. Completely agree. One of the few sensible articles around at the moment that have examined the shenanigans on Capitol. The Democrats have shot themselves in both feet.
Don Gaughan
3 years ago
Intolerance , hate, social division, racism( the blatantly racial scapegoating of the fabricated left Critical Race Theory dogma), mob incitement of violent insurectionist revoloution all last year during the pandemic, systemic suppresion of dissent and human rights violation, forced political indocrination of children, students and workers, purging and destroying political rivals…the truthless hypocritical left progressive tyranny is verifiably guilty of everything they falsely accuse , and are the real vandal and threat to democracy, reported in every free democracy in the west they operate in. Truth and justice will prevail over the truthless tyrannies in our world , but not before they inflict their damages and harms. Humanity needs to recognize them in time, and liberate themselves from the marxist left progressive tyranny.
There’s something truly disgusting and Orwellian about it – that’s so infuriating, that it’s difficult to even put one’s finger on it – to know exactly, what to call it – and yet, it’s used as a CONSTANT, DELIBERATE TACTIC (even though – it also resembles psychological projection, and a psychosis). So – let me put it, this way…
Let’s say – that you cold-bloodedly plan, to murder someone – by firearm – only, you want to get away with it. So – what you do is – you preemptively, before they even thought that there was any hostility between you at all, in either direction – accuse THEM, of plotting to murder YOU – and, THEN, you shoot them – and before the murder has even been reported or investigated, start loudly claiming that it was in “self-defense”…
Michael North
3 years ago
As Cardinal Pell said ; “Trump is a bit of a barbarian, but he’s our barbarian”. Millions of Americans feel the same. He was the last chance for the United States as it has been known.
. …
William Gladstone
3 years ago
Yes you have worked out that the globalists are Fascist (or if that term offends you totalitarians) who will use any pretext to be authoritarian. Well done, perhaps you and the rest of the left should have worked this out 25 years ago and our liberal democracies would not be totally illiberal and technocratic at this point. but then the left work for and want the revolution despite history showing that every single time it leads to death and destruction.
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
For A start A president cannot be impeached a 2nd time when leaving office ..secondly peolosi & her corrupt cohorts are Terrified trump will Spill the beans on Twitter,Youtube,Facebook anti-trust Laws violations…Pelosi Like Biden has dubious dealings ,how Can she have accumulated $150million + by being speaker ?..Trump should concentrate on Nailing Biden and other corrupt Democrats..
And, he’s going to. They can “Cancel” him – but they can’t actually literally VANISH him. I just have to suspect that, as short-sighted as they are – they probably haven’t even figured that out, yet.
(They can’t actually Cancel, around 50 percent of the voting population, either – and I doubt that recognition of that fact, has even strayed into their dim little totalitarian minds…)
Christopher Barclay
3 years ago
Curious how the agenda preceded the riot. How many of the ‘insurrectionists’ came armed? Could the security around the building have done better? If the answers are ‘none or few’ and ‘yes’, then the event may have been allowed to take place. The purpose was obvious. To stop Trump from running in 2024. After 9/11 no one who had been ‘asleep on duty’ was subsequently punished. Time will tell whether it is the same in this case.
Paul Marks
3 years ago
If saying “peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard” is a crime – then having nasal hair is a crime.
Donald John Trump is constantly the subject of disinformation and smear campaigns – for example after the confrontation in Virginia in 2017 over the removal of the statue of General Lee the VERY FIRST WORDS that President Trump said were to condemn neo Nazis who tried to hijack the conflict (who are, after all, a threat to his Jewish daughter – the Trump family has always been very close to the Jewish community of New York City, even as far back as the 1950s and 1960s), having condemned the neo Nazis, President Trump then said (quite correctly) that there were good people on both sides of the conflict over the statue. The media EDITED OUT the condemnation of neo Nazis and pretended that President Trump was saying they were “good people”. The media do this all the time – they lie and smear constantly and even some people on this comment thread believe the lies and smears of the media against Donald John Trump.
As for January 6th – it is now clear that Antifa Marxist activists (supporters of Biden/Harris) manipulated events (and manipulated some people) and created the riot. But this will not be reported in the “mainstream media” which will continue to lie and smear. There was a lot of, quite justified, anger over the massive Election Rigging in November (what happened in States such as Pennsylvania was farcical in the crudeness and extent of the election fraud), but the anger was manipulated and pushed in a violent direction NOT by President Trump – but by professional leftist (yes leftist) activists planted in the crowds, some of these people have already been arrested – so it is not a “Conspiracy Theory”.
You are right that Trump has been smeared repeatedly by the media using quotes out of context. And the behavior of the Democrats has been appalling. However, antifa did not create the riot. It was created by the hundreds, maybe thousands, of the most extreme of Trump’s supporters who breached the police lines and stormed the Capitol. Indeed there were a few antifa types – wannabe revolutionaries and riot groupies – in the crowd and they may have helped whip up the crowd. But not very many. The names and backgrounds of those who stormed the Capitol are coming out and most are hyperactive Trump supporters, including police, teachers, local administrators, and others.
An important point is that the breach of the police lines was initiated DURING Trump’s speech. So Trump could hardly be rationally accused of inciting the riot, since cause precedes effect. Nevertheless the Dems are making hay with the help of the sycophantic media. Sad, yes, but also evil and dangerous.
I was being sarcastic. Apparently it’s only fraud when Trump loses. When he wins it’s a completely legitimate outcome. The fact that tens of millions of people can make this claim with a straight face is quite something.
There was no mail-in balloting in 2016. Real people, actually living in the present, actually voted. The only problem, is that in Fantasyland – you had already Coronated, your Queen – Successor, to America’s First Black Pharaoh. So it couldn’t possibly have been real.
(Even though, in Real World Land {which – some people still at least visit, from time to time} – in most respects, Trump is pretty much just like any ordinary Republican President {except – a bit better – and I guess that’s what makes it, all the worse}.)
Trump started the “civil war”? Who attempted to negate the election, before it was finished – and has been living in denial of its reality constantly, for the entire four years since? Who called, during the election season, itself – repeatedly, in any number of public performances before, mostly, wealthy Northeastern “liberal” audiences – an entire half, at least, of the U.S. citizenry, a newly-coined noun – “Deplorables”? Was that, Donald Trump?
Did Trump start the war? Looks to me like the democrats did with efforts to impeach him before he ever took office. You can’t wipe out the last four years.
The Queen isn’t sacrosanct in the US regardless of what her subjects would like to see. In any case, “Queen” in this case refers to herself, Hillary Rodham Clinton. And it’s not meant as a compliment.
Good point. The Clinton canal started the whole fraud pretense with the phony Russian collusion stunt. I guess it’s only fraud when Trump wins.
Andrew Thompson
3 years ago
Remind me again how many homes, businesses and livelihoods were burned to the ground last summer please. This episode was a walk in the park FGS, had Trump retained power then America certainly would have burned; hundreds of deaths, total mayhem would have ensued.
Trump is the President of USA. The man has been lying for the last 4 years about stole elections (2016 and 2020). He is not the mayor or Portland or a woke social activist. It shouldn’t be hard for (even?) you to see the difference!
How am I interfering with his right to free speech – Exactly? He is at liberty to post here and those, like you, who want to read his fatuous contributions are at liberty to do so – I can’t stop you and wouldn’t even if I could. I merely advised that other contributors might find this forum more interesting when he is blocked from view. There are days when every other comments is from this hyperactive teenager.
Sorry Nigel there is no “and yet”. If it was destructive (and it was) to riot for Lloyd George it is much much worst for the President of USA to spread lies/conspiracies and turn on a mob against the institutions of USA. We (as I speak as an American) expect more from elected officials – especially from the President of USA.
Except the president did not do what you claim. The New York Times has a nice timeline of the event, showing the perimeter was breeched before Trump spoke. CNN has a piece on how this looks to have been coordinated ahead of time. Unlike past accusations against Trump, the bandwagon cannot use ignorance here. The left’s own media sources are reporting things that do not support the ‘blame Orange McBadman’ theory.
You still won’t see… The riots were an attempt to goad Trump in to some sort of armed reaction, it didn’t occur, but they kept on and on and on…, read some of the comments below and above from the people who live in Portland. Ask them if they think a few hundred unarmed people breaking in to the Capitol disturbed them as much as weeks of rioting, looting, burning, theft and murder.
If you want more from your elected officials…then elect some with backbones…but you won’t.
Iliya Kuryakin
3 years ago
The more fundamental problem with the incitement charge is Trump’s words in his speech: “I know everyone will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”
I’m glad that you caught that! I didn’t notice it, at first – really great choice of photograph. I had no idea those things were up there, in the House chamber – how many people do?
In ancient times, this was a neutral, or positive, symbol of state authority – of course.
Please accept my apologies for bollocking you about the C-19 nonsense. I was, to use the vernacular, a ‘bit pissed’ to note your satire. Anyway jolly well done, I think we ‘sing from the same hymn sheet’?
Isn’t it nuts – that you so constantly see so many purportedly sane, purportedly balanced – prominent, people – carrying on, as if they thought that President Trump, himself, had brewed the disease up in a laboratory – or that he had some kind of magical power to just stop it – if he just wanted to?
In, the superstitious Middle Ages – it was believed that kings could sometimes cure diseases, simply by laying their hands on afflicted persons – and in fact, there were whole traditions around that – there was one day out of the year when people afflicted with certain diseases before the King, and ask to be magically cured of them. I guess – something or another like that must be what Anderson Cooper, and whoever else, all seem to have in mind… The President is either, an Evil Sorcerer, who created the disease in the first place – or he’s an uncaring tyrant, who withholds the magical cure that he could otherwise bestow on the entire nation – if he only, just “cared” to do so…
kecronin1
3 years ago
Noam Chomksy’s book Manufacturing Dissent is a real eye opener. Written decades ago, it unfolds what we are experiencing today. Strip away references to foreign countries and insert the US and you will understand what we are experiencing. If it is Karma so be it. That would make it much more logical than the bs handed out by the media since the pandemic started.
Correct, and Chomsky’s co-author was Edward Herman. Credit where credit is due.
Henry Barth
3 years ago
This man has just been federally indicted for his involvement in the riot. Jayden X is hardly a Trump supporter: https://www.rollingstone.co…
Victor Newman
3 years ago
Mmh. Reichstag fire, anyone?
leznikm8
3 years ago
Reichstag fire
PB Storyman
3 years ago
Thank you, Michael. A well-stated and interesting analogy. This is one of only a very few articles that have challenged the pitchfork bearing hordes that seek to stifle debate.
Mark Walker
3 years ago
United States of America is in reality three regions or blocks of States. The Regions are: 1 – East Coast is liberal and radical.
2 – West Coast is liberal and debt laden. 3 – Central States are very conservative. 1+2 believe CNN, NY Times; Washington Post; 3 believes Fox News. Will the 3 regions agree on the future? No chance IMHO.
Not quite. Florida is an east coast state, a very populated one and it isn’t radical and not really liberal. North and South Carolina aren’t liberal or radical. New England has become increasingly liberal and radical but not the east coast.
Central states include Illinois which no one would call conservative. Minnesota isn’t conservative either. Michigan either. Illinois is one of the most debt laden states in the country but it’s not west coast.
You’re correct that the west coast is liberal and debt laden. Radical too.
That’s net debt, not total debt. Be careful with statistics.
From the World Atlas…..
California is the most indebted state with an outstanding debt of $152.80 billion during the 2019 fiscal year. New York comes second with an outstanding debt of $139.20 billion.
Yep, Illinois is very liberal and very deep in debt indeed.
Paul Goodman
3 years ago
Listening to Arnie talk about Kristallnacht in his think Austrian accent gave me cognitive dissonance. But then I remembered that he is an actor and concluded that he was merely rehearsing for the crass B movie that is his life. Please Kristallnacht!?! Why are Americans so puffed up? Is it because they all think they are in a film? After Ragan, Arnie and Trump I recon Jonny Depp, being a self declared southern gentleman could bring that country together. I am guessing there will be 20 Timothy McVeighs created by this twisted over reaction.
Am I alone in fearing an extreme false flag operation during the inauguration? I do not want to be accused of inciting violence, but if I were leading the (underground) left, I would be planning something pretty spectacular to attempt to drive another nail into the Republican coffin.
Well plan B might involve the use of an aeroplane, “Kamikaze style”. The airport at DC is very close to Capitol as I recall.
I would also be astonished if some “collectors” were not in possession of an 81mm. I gather over a million were produced.
G Harris
3 years ago
According to the UK FT, thus far, a situation echoed to a not dissimilar degree across other US state capitals, there are 25k troops approved for deployment by the Pentagon on the streets of Washington for the ‘scaled down’ inauguration, many downtown busineses in the immediate area are boarded up and Mr Biden intends to stress the importance of unity in his inaugural address as House Speaker Ms Pelosi apparently sits on the fateful legislation, legislation intended to impeach the man who 74m Americans recently voted for and is yet clearly intended to stop him forever running for high office ever again, on the grounds that its introduction might slow up the swearing in of the Democrats’ own officials.
Yep, looks like the good ship USS Democracy is well on course to me.
Aye, for the rocks. She’ll sink with the loss of all hands.
Daniel Björkman
3 years ago
I witnessed countless instances of political speech expressed by activists, journalists, and others during last summer’s protests and riots which under the same standard could have been deemed to have “foreseeably resulted” in “lawless action”, such as attacks on police or destruction of property.
Yes, and here’s the thing – they should have been arrested also.
Now that things are for once, just for freaking once going against the savages, they keep trying to scare me with, “but don’t you realise that cracking down on uncivilised behaviour will affect your side too?!” And my answer to that is, yes, I jolly well hope so! Do you know how many left-wingers should be kicked off social media for spewing hatred and bigotry? Do you know how many left-wing goons should be thrown in jail for acting like shit-flinging monkeys? Of course you know, you obsess about them constantly! Why is it so surprising for you that I despise them also?
People are complaining that 2021 is starting badly, but I think it’s showing great promise so far. For the first time in years, we are seeing people facing actual consequences for acting like subhuman pieces of filth. Perhaps civilisation hasn’t quite given up the ghost yet.
Do you know how many left-wingers should be kicked off social media for spewing hatred and bigotry? And yet, few if any are being kicked off. The silencing tilts in one direction, with a private business doing the bidding of govt. Free speech is not just a legal principle; it’s a broadly held social value and if it is not treated as such, then it becomes meaningless. Team Biden has hired numerous big tech people. That’s not happenstance.
There were those there who did act like subhuman filth. But most of them remind me more of a Children’s Crusade. (A surprising number seem to have actually come there with their Moms.)
What a toerag you show yourself to be. You agree that leftists should be given the same treatment for the same type of “offences”, but once this virtue-signal of your equanimity is out the system, you return to the usual liberal smearing and sneering of those “on the other side”. You know full well people on the left are completely safe from the censoring happening to conservatives. Big tech is massively left-wing. Why are “liberals “a) so intolerant of free speech b) so quick to label massive numbers of people “savages” / “deplorables” etc. Aren’t you supposed to be the tolerant and caring ones? Where do you get your cockeyed moral superiority from, and please do come down off your wretched high horse before someone has to pull you down.
Alison Houston
3 years ago
I’m really looking forward to the articles in UnHerd next week examining the declassification and release of all the Russiagate files. It will be particularly interesting to hear about British interference in an American election during the time of a Conservative government. The article by Harvey Schlanger of the Schiller Institute should be particularly interesting.
Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a single mainstream neutral, site with real investigative journalism, prepared to take the long view of history. Thank God for UK Column News.
Neil John
3 years ago
Watching some independent US news aggregators it would appear a lot of the real damage done at the capitol wasn’t done by Trump supporters, in the main they simply treated it as a grand day out taking selfies walking inside the velvet roped visitor walkways, but by Antifa members/associates dressed in MAGA/Trump gear. The Police officer who died was reportedly hit from behind with a fire extinguisher, typical of Antifa associate attacks on others, Trump supporters also seem to support law and order especially the Police. Was the rally infiltrated by Agent Provocateurs (Antifa or ‘state’ actors) with the intent of gifting an opportunity to further smear Trump and his supporters and prevent him ever standing again, something the Democrats truly fear, I doubt we’ll ever really know.
Those that disagree with what was admittedly a rushed impeachment need to state what alternative measures should have been, or should still be, applied against an incumbent president who thought he could find a way to stay in power despite defeat at the polls. Trump had it planned in advance. He told his supporters not to vote early, with the full intention of decrying the validity of postal votes after the event. He was ready with his excuses on election night, claiming speciously that because he was ahead at 10pm he had to be the winner. His legal team was primed and ready to go. And the stolen election legend led inexorably to the results seen on 6 Jan, a day of infamy that shames the United States. Your ability to condemn election malpractice around the world is tarnished and weakened – I hope not irreparably. My American friends here need to realise that no matter what their view is of Pelosi, Biden or the Democrat agenda, this main issue should not be forgotten. The President has brought his country, as well as his party, into disrepute, and there are no shortage of accomplices that tried to help him succeed.
Complete and utter twaddle. And don’t clutch your pearls so hard: you’ll break the string or choke yourself.
Patrick Chevallereau
3 years ago
Don’t prosecute the mafia boss, because if you do so, the mafia will come after you. Can we stop this stupid kind of reasoning?
steve horsley
3 years ago
trump himself said the other day that they ve been after him since day one and he s right.pelosi is a first class b***h who is finally getting her wish.if i were the american people i wouldn t be too happy having people like her running things.
Hilary Arundale
3 years ago
Cynical rubbish
Paul Booth
3 years ago
A good example of an article that started with a fixed opinion and then tried to bolster it with feeble arguments, the sort that are all too common on all points of the political spectrum now. Try thinking for a change. It’s had, but worth it.
Simon H
3 years ago
See the hangman’s noose outside the Whitehouse? The press gleefully filming…
Adrian Smith
3 years ago
The correct response to this is to relegate Trump to the joke and irrelevance he is post Jan 20. What is being done will achieve the exact opposite.
Agreed, but whatever your personal opinion of Trump might be, this particular ‘joke and irrelevance’ managed to garner 74m American votes, I’m afraid, and this politically motivated, vengeful impeachment is potentially an affront to many of them, let alone self-serving recklessness in the extreme.
I agree with you that what Pelosi is doing will only keep the focus on Trump. I almost feel sorry for Biden because he won’t be able to compete for the public’s attention. He doesn’t sell papers or media either. Plus this will go all the way to SCOTUS so it’s going to take awhile. I’d say a year or more if SCOTUS agrees to hear an expedited case on whether you can convict a private citizen.
Vilde Chaye
3 years ago
Pelosi’s hifalutin’ BS about Trump posing a “clear and present danger” to the country, and therefore had to be removed immediately is nonsense, given that there is no way this “impeachment” was ever going to result in the president’s removal before his term in office ended, and of course she knew that. It was purely symbolic, and purely spiteful and yet another waste of time of the House of Representatives, which surely had more important things to do. Two impeachments, neither of which had a hope in hell of resulting in the removal of the president, have politicized the process of impeachment (already begun by the vain and useless Republican impeachment of Clinton in 1998) to the point where it’s lost whatever symbolism it had during the Nixon era. In short, these two spiteful impeachments will look worse on the Democrats than it will on Trump. With 7 days to go in his term, a well-deserved censure would have been enough.
Michael Cowling
3 years ago
“Britain genuinely leads the world at sequencing the viral genome. Something like 60% of all Covid genetic sequencing worldwide was carried out in the UK.”
I can see that if case numbers are small, then genetic sequencing can play a part in the tracking and tracing, and help this work better. But once the virus is everywhere, how does it help?
Viruses mutate all the time and the reason behind sequencing a coronavirus ilike covid is that it can effectively become a new virus with each mutation, potentially rendering it more infectious, more deadly and less likely to be affected by existing treatments and recently developed vaccines.
‘Know your enemy’ type thang.
Richard Blaine
3 years ago
The danger is never the actual event; it is always the ends to which the event’s interpretation will be used; indeed, it is the interpretation itself of that very same event. In this instance, the media, the Democrat Party, Academia and the Chatting Class have given America its Reichstag Moment and the Brownshirts of Silicon Valley and the Bureaucracy will run with it and impose restrictions on speech, movement and if possible, thought, just as was done in 1933. Mr. Trump, through his unfiltered narcissism- and uncontrollable mouth has inflicted grievous harm upon the very people he purported to represent. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves.
You got it in one. You can see this developing if you watch carefully. For example President Trump had only just begun to speak when trouble began at the Capitol – it takes 15 minutes to walk between the two locations. And, knowing that there was due to be a large demonstration, why was the Capitol so lightly defended ? This all smells wrong. The more you study this the more it seems that Biden has his Reichstag moment. And now for the Enabling Act.
The militant Democrat Party, the partisan mainstream media and the blatant censorship of the BigTech is a deeply troubling mixture and will result in Fascism, for that is how it starts. The irregularities in the General Election were many and various, and I can clearly see there will never be another free and fair election held again – just as there wasn’t in Germany in the 30s.
My lefty friends use to rage at the ‘industrial/military complex’ – the deep state – but curiously they are silent on the topic these days. But the Deep State was taken by surprise by Trumps election in 2016 (as they were with Brexit) and have spent 4 years seeking to control him and destroy him (ditto Brexit). In 2020 they made sure he lost. While many on here cheer wildly, they ought to remember that the end never justifies the means. The wheel always turns and while it is conservatives being persecuted now the day will dawn when there are none left and the self righteous Fascist Left will come for you.
Kathryn Markel
3 years ago
I think you’re wrong. Yes, there’s tons of double standard – and I don’t blame anyone for being mad about it, BUT Trump=Chaos. He’s always been a sh-t-stirrer and will continue to be. He lost Georgia – almost on purpose, and is just too dangerous. Has to be dumped.
Terence Fitch
3 years ago
Psychopaths never never stop. Germans let Hitler off the hook after the Putsch. And then…
Many laws of physics can be restated, in more than one way… As an alternative formulation – “generally speaking, everybody you don’t like is Hitler – unless otherwise notified…”
J A Thompson
3 years ago
I do not wish to be accused of inciting violence but does anyone else fear an extreme false flag operation during the inauguration? If I were running the left’s operations, I would be planning something fairly spectacular in the hope of driving another nail into the Republican coffin. Now would also be a good time to put money on Biden not completing aterm.
Simon Ault
3 years ago
An Unherd piece, defending Trump from consequences. What a shocker!
A person with Trump Derangement Syndrome not appreciating the nuances of vital issues in a dangerously polarised time, perhaps?
Joel Pickup
3 years ago
Proceedings for Nixon’s impeachment included reference to his making “false and misleading public statements,” which were “contrary to his trust as president and subversive of constitutional government.”
Debate all you want on the definition of “incitement”, his “barrage of lies and conspiratorial delusions” clearly and obviously are grounds for impeachment, especially given what transpired.
Please show where his speech included a call to violence. Because the comments of numerous Dems, to include the House Speaker and incoming VP, are documented in their support of the summer of mayhem. Kamala was even pushing a bail fund for any protesters who were arrested.
this rather strongly seeks to establish a causal link: his “barrage of lies and conspiratorial delusions” clearly and obviously are grounds for impeachment, especially given what transpired.
It’s not whataboutism to point out obvious hypocrisy.
Yes, I believe there is a causal link between his words and the actions of those that stormed the capitol. So does the writer of the article we are both commenting on. I don’t need to point to him calling for violence for that to be true.
I am saying his rhetoric and his consistent, flagrant and delusional lies that he has been pushing on his supporters since before even a single vote was cast is enough to impeach him. And there is precedent for that.
Strike out the “especially given what transpired” part of my argument if you want, the point still stands. But this stuff doesn’t occur in a vacuum, as the President well knows.
then you will have no problem showing which words in the speech caused the incident. Of course, you’ll have to ignore the timeline showing where the perimeter was breached before he spoke. Or the evidence of this having been a planned event.
The last impeachment stemmed from a second-hand whistleblower, so your point made be getting lost in that. That the effort was led by people who have accused their opponents of racism, white supremacy, and being nazis only underscores the foolishness of the campaign. And knowing there is no two-thirds majority to be had in the Senate for conviction exposes the plan’s cynicism.
So, again, nothing that actually refutes that this impeachment was valid or appropriate. Whether or not this impeachment will lead to his removal from office – whilst clearly sought after – is immaterial.
You have offered nothing to substantiate it beyond repeating what you’ve been told about his speech. Never mind that the problem was unfolding even before he spoke, or stories suggesting this was planned well in advance by someone, or yesterday’s arrest of a known BLM agitator. What happens in the Senate is very much material; that’s the whole point, silly as the point is since even Nancy has to know the two-thirds majority needed for conviction won’t happen.
Read the first comment I made that you engaged with.
Of course what happens in the senate matters. I’m saying whether or not he is convicted has no bearing on whether or not his actions merit impeachment.
False and misleading statements are the apparent domain of politicians. Nixon was charged with statements related to an underlying criminal act. The distinction matters in context. Trying to muddy the Trump impeachment with Nixon’s is an argument too far. At least there was a hearing for Nixon, none so for Trump as evidence builds that would question the rush. Waiting a week, rushing to judgement to remove someone because of “immediate danger” that the Senate refused to agree on the immediacy. Politics of destruction to end a personal vendetta of one party.
Joe Bolser
3 years ago
It’s interesting to read the number of delusional voices BTL who still believe the election was somehow stolen. Because that’s the real context here. Not institutional overreach (though that’s probably true), nor corporate ‘censorship’ (as though anyone has a ‘right’ to a Twitter account or a place on Amazon’s servers), but downright collective phantasy and group-based, cognitive dissonance.
In functioning democracies political parties have the power to self-correct. To fix themselves. They shift to where the votes are. Even Labour has managed it a couple of times, despite the best efforts of their leftist wreckers (AOC would fit in nicely).
But when the group narrative is a fiction, a big lie, those self-correcting mechanisms break. The echo chambers of the internet and the draw of conspiracy theories to the poorly educated and weak-minded have brought us here.
It needs to be fought. What alternatives are there? I don’t read any above the line here.
That’s why Trump needed to be impeached. That’s why the Capitol interlopers need to be prosecuted. That’s why platforms that spread lies and hate need to be challenged and, if necessary, marginalised. The auto-immune system of the body politic must dispel delusion. Or it risks being overrun.
Mark Robertson
3 years ago
Trump might be restrained via-Ã -vis pardons etc., by the fact that the impeachment trial will be looming over him after he has left office.
C M
3 years ago
Ahaha, so the real danger is AOC and not Trump and the fascists? Given the irrational hatred that she inspires in the vast majority of Anglo-Saxon white men, as proven once again by this article and its comments, no wonder AOC feared for her life during the assault on Capitol!
Come off it, she is just another wretched “attention seeker”. The only threat to her life would have been from that panicky policeman who shot Ms Babbitt.
We must all grow up very quickly and cease recklessly throwing around words like “fascist” and “Nazi”, especially when one of the most fascist of all present movements is so-called Antifa, or “Anti-fascists”. We are disempowering these once very powerful words, and thus making meaningful discussion impossible.
We must all grow up very quickly and cease recklessly throwing around words like “fascist” and “N*z*”, especially when one of the most fascist of all present movements is so-called Antifa, or “Anti-fascists”. We are disempowering these once very powerful words, and thus making meaningful discussion impossible.
That’s VERY DANGEROUS RHETORIC. In fact – it might be classified as legally prohibited Hate Speech, before very long. What are you trying to do – abolish present-day “liberalism”, or the Dimocratic Party?
Yes – the real danger is actually, literally – in the real world – the political party, who still in some truly bizarre irony of history, call themselves the “Democrats” (but they’re getting one of the vowels wrong – more accurately, that should be an “i” instead of an “e”). And its two Paramilitary Wings.
What the commentator, “C M”, means (like all other “identitards”, of course), is that all human beings are really actually robots – manufactured, according to a limited number of exactly identical specifications. Each particular unit of whatever specific model, all run exactly the same software – so, if one robot of Model x, hates a robot of Model y – we can be pretty certain that all the other robots of Model x do, also – and that this is entirely something having to do with their make, model, and factory-installed software.
(Also, I’m just wondering – are all white people “Anglo-Saxons”, now? Only about 8% of the U.S. population in surveys, designates itself as being of English descent – and Donald Trump, for instance, isn’t one of them. How does the unit that designates itself as “C M”, know? Does it have all of the design specs?)
There’s an odd twisting of race and nationality that some here have indicated they believe appropriate. One poster averred that all Spaniards are considered white in the UK. Which must be very odd if you’re a black Spaniard. English descent would include lots of influences in addition to Anglo-Saxon, for example Normans even Vikings, Picts, etc they all blended in along with Roman influences so English is sort of a hodgepodge. And then of course you have black English people and Asian English and middle eastern English.
I completely agree. On the other hand – “Anglo-Saxon” is usually used, as synonym for English – even though that’s not at all historically accurate. The words, “England” and “English” after all, come from the word “Angle”. In reality, of course – Angles and Saxons became predominant in Southern Scotland, as early as they did in England… And, you could go on and on…
In reality, of course – there are in the present day, no Angles, Saxons, or Jutes – but the word “Anglo-Saxon” is often just used as a synonym for “English” {ethnically, speaking} – I guess, just because those particular ethnic groups of ancient or early-medieval times left a lasting cultural and social influence – even though they were far from being the first, and far from being the last, to do so…
(And, then, of course – as you point out – there’s “English”, as in – citizens of the UK, who live in England – which which is an entirely different, though equally important matter…)
The comment, though, is about U.S. politics. And I feel pretty certain that the attempt to use “Anglo-Saxon”, as a slur – is really meant to imply, all white people (as if, they were all, the same, boring, stiff – and, prejudiced – thing – and it can all be blamed, on the British historical roots of America). If the commentator had written, “Anglophone” – that might be one thing… All non-Hispanic American whites, are often referred to as “Anglos” – by, some Hispanics… It’s obviously, absurd – but a big deal is made, of whether one has a Spanish-derived last name, or not (entirely regardless, of whether one speaks Spanish or not – and I would guess that probably a majority of Hispanics in the U.S., certainly quite an enormous number of them, do not).
There are some real quandaries around this, in the U.S. – they’re not really acute, or painful ones – but they kind of stand out, for their illogic. “Hispanic” is treated, as if it were an “ethnic group” – whereas it is not more practically speaking, actually any one ethnic group (the same, of course, could be said for “white”). Various kinds of forms make a distinction between “non-Hispanic white” – “Hispanic white” – “non-white Hispanic” – and categories, such as those… What it really ultimately just comes down to (the category, “Hispanic”) – is just, whether one has a Spanish-derived last name, or not. But – many people do make a conflation, between “Hispanic” and “non-white”…
(To me – AOC, or the “Occasional Cortex”, as some have humorously called her – looks, pretty much “white” – in exactly the same sense that most people from Spain, are “white”. But, in a sense, I guess – who really cares?)
(Actually, I have to correct myself. I think, if I’m not mistaken {but it’s been a long time since I’ve been there} – that members of ethnic minorities who are citizens of the UK, and live in England – generally speaking, refer to themselves and are referred to, as “British” – but, not – as “English”??)
A great deal of the conflation, no doubt – comes from the fact that quite a lot of U.S. Hispanics, in terms of the “racial appearance” – would appear to be “racially”, “mestizo”. “Mestizo” is the word that’s actually used, in most Latin American countries – certainly, not all of whose inhabitants are “mestizo” (some, are Spanish, and white – others, are Spanish-speaking – but ethnically, “American Indian” – or “indio”).
There isn’t really, an enormous difference. There’s essentially no difference, culturally – between “mestizo” {although the word is never used, in the U.S.}, and white, Hispanics. The difference in “racial appearance” sort of occurs, along a spectrum. Even the native inhabitants of Spain are at least slightly darker-complected, on average, than the native inhabitants of Northern Europe are – and that’s probably the only basis, on which the Occasional Cortex calls herself a “Person of Color” (or the only real justification, for it).
Simply, whether you have a Spanish last name, or not – is perceived (if you do have a Spanish last name), as constituting an “ethnic group”. In reality, of course – it makes a big difference, whether you are of for instance, Puerto Rican – Mexican – or whatever else, descent… Those are actually, different cultures {in addition – most Mexicans or people of Mexican descent, are “mestizo” {which only describes, an appearance} – whereas, almost no Puerto Ricans, for instance – are}. It makes an enormous difference – whether, you are of Mexican for instance, descent – but your family has lived here for generations {some, but generally few of whom, speak Spanish – unless it’s only to a slight degree, as a second-language} – or, whether you are a first-generation immigrant – or, whether you just sneaked across the border yesterday, illegally – and, the latter category of people are looked down upon and not regarded as legitimate, by quite a lot of Hispanics – just as they are looked down upon and not regarded as legitimate, by quite a lot of people of whatever other backgrounds – differing quite a lot, though, in regard to those attitudes, from state to state…
And – speaking of IdPol, in general (all of it – because by this point, I’m ever so slightly sick of it) –
Identitard Politics
(with sincere apologies, to Langston Hughes {“Harlem”})
What happens to a politics, absurd?
Does it cry its woketard tears up forever, without a reason under the sun? Or fester like a totalitarian bore – And yet keep having fun? Does it stink like rotten meat? Or keep selling itself well (and lucratively), by crusting and sugaring over – like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just keeps bragging that it’s Tom Joad.
Or does it implode?
J J
3 years ago
Trump is more dangerous than Impeachment
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
The bozo rioters at the Capitol were undoubtedly inflamed by a barrage of lies and conspiratorial delusions that Trump churned out on an almost hourly basis since losing the election ” that’s beyond dispute.
Institutionally supported by the Republican party across the country!
Institutionally supported by the Republican party across the country! Not really. Across the country, Repubs condemned the violence. Many also noticed how the suddenly pearl-clutching left was silent during a summer of mayhem that included arson, billions in damage, and a couple of dozen murders.
It’s a scary thought, but I suspect the attempt to impeach trump is not just political. Perhaps there is a genuine concern he may attempt to order the military to keep himself in power. Presumably he remains in charge of the military until he steps down. Can the military refuse to follow his orders?
When Trump suggested reducing troop numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan, General Milley, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that the US military would follow its own assessment of troop requirements, ie ignore the President’s instructions. Together with the arms industry, the US military wanted Trump gone and to have Biden back in the White House where he and Obama had started 5 new wars.
You’re equating left and right with democrats and republicans. They are not the same. Democrats are far more likely to be pro mob violence. Vocally. You’re also overlooking libertarians. The “centre” is not a party in the US. It does not equate to the UK.
True. However, they will get as much money or more under Biden. Remember under Obama/Biden 5 new wars were started in the Middle East and at one point literally ran out of bombs, see the report from the reliable source CNN below (LOL):
You really are clutching at straws if you are trying to sell Trump as a ‘man of peace’.
Trump was treated appallingly by the MSM, but he gave as good as he got. However he did not come out of nowhere. Even his friends conceded he is an egomaniac totally unsuited to the office of President. He would start a war at the drop of a hat if he thought he could hold to the Presidency.
I never said Trump was a ‘man of peace’. All I pointed out was that his political opponents removed the power he had (and did not use) to reduce troop numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan and that Obama maintained the shameful record of Nobel Peace Prize winners by starting several wars.
Nonsense. It is all about seeking to destroy him politically. Impeachment is used and is framed to remove an individual from office. As far as I am aware, certainly under English Law, you cannot be ‘tried’ on Impeachment once you no longer hold the office. What the Democrats are seeking to do is bring forward a Bill of Attainder, again copied from England and used to destroy powerful individuals by the state. It was used for Laud and Stafford I think. It is totally and utterly unlawful in the USA, prohibited by the Constitution.
You’re right that it’s not political. It is personal and directed not just at Trump, but anyone supportive of him. This is The Club speaking loudly to those who are not members, letting them know that they are unwelcome.
The military can always refuse what are considered unlawful orders. Funny, though, how no one asks that question when the left talks about gun confiscation.
I was talking about a real individual, whom a large portion of America believe is psychologically disturbed, and is the commander in chief of the largest military in the world.
You are talking about some ill defined, fictional sounding concept called ‘The Club’
“Presumably he remains in charge of the military until he steps down.”
I think we have a true constitutional scholar here.
simon lamb
3 years ago
I’m astonished by the complacency of some people. The “whataboutism” is like equating flea bites to sharks’. Is it that they have been so inured to Trumpian excess – his blatant lies, his absurd posturing, his vanity, his bigotry, his bullying, his jutting, Mussolinian expressions, his racism, sexism and obvious incitements of violence, that even the shocking events of Jan 6th deserve merely a “motion of censure”? The real hard nuts had prepared before, for sure, but where would they have got without the thousands that went with them as instructed, providing momentum through numbers and shrouding the real intent for as long as possible? Is anyone so naive as to think Trump wasn’t fully aware of what was gong to happen? It had been coming for weeks. Every day I looked to see, but no – despite the daily tirades and lies about the election – despite the calls to ‘stop the steal’ and ‘take our country back’ – all was eerily quiet. We now know why. Trump was priming the pressure cooker for the big event – an 11th hour attempt to jam the wheels of democracy with an assault on the Capitol. With the benefit of time I suspect we will see – not some hysterical over-reaction by Trump-hating Dems, but shocked American patriots (yes – the great majority in the country, conservative and liberal, are the real pariots) declaring for history through the only legal means at hand “enough, we will no longer tolerate hate, fascism and fear eating away at our body politic”.
I also suspect we will see the uncovering of a conspiracy that goes very deep. The big question is – how high does it go?
nuts. tracey is right to talk about the reaction. And there is no “whataboutism” in the article.
Robert Malcolm
3 years ago
Lies breed distrust. Distrust breed rhetoric. Rhetoric breeds fear. Fear breeds violence. Trump isn’t a child, He knew this. I think this was a genuine if utterly farcical ‘Hitlerbunker’ last ditch attempt by Trump to intimidate Democracy by a show of force and overthrow the election result: and I think he deserves everything being thrown at him..
please show where Trump tried to “intimidate” anyone, let alone democracy itself. The same Capitol that witnessed this event was back in business later that same day. There are numerous stories showing that the fracas appears to have been planned ahead of time, as in long before Trump said whatever you’re told he said. A timeline shows the perimeter being breeched before he said a word to marchers. You are making accusations bereft of even the slightest evidence.
Sorry, but are you actually being serious? A President who in 2020 constantly questioned elections and basically said that if he did not win the election then it must be rigged. Please try and keep some perspective. A year windup for Trumpists, and constant questioning of Judges who threw out 60 court cases about a rigged election-many state elections were certified by Republican election officials. What happened when Republicans were elected-as even Mitch was smart enough to recognise, if you question the validity of these elections results then it will never end, especially if Republicans lose close elections. Trump incited his supporters to storm the Capitol, and even a lot of Republications accept this. As for impeachment, I am doubtful if it was a useful gambit at this point.
Trump incited his supporters to storm the Capitol, and even a lot of Republications accept this. Again, show where he did this. Because it’s not in the speech. It does not comport with news reports suggesting this was planned ahead of time, and it does not line up a timeline of the events.
Also, judges dismissed cases over procedural matters, not the evidence itself. Not one of those case has actually been heard and adjudicated. Polls here show that 30% of Dems think that fraud occurred. When multiple statistical anomalies and red flags are ignored, that’s not a very convincing case that the election was above board.
As Dawkins would posit-“proof by repeated assertion” is still not proof! For more than a year Trump would pump his supporters up to believe the election would be stolen. 7 million more Americans did not believe him. This is why constantly questioning election results, even in Republican states, is so dangerous-given the level of information on social media by simply repeating demonstrably false information, eg the election was “stolen”, that democratic elections become severely undermined-you do see that do you not? Hence every election must be rigged. In this case many Republican states checked all signatures, and as Lindsay Graham no less asked-show me 10 names of people who voted when they were dead or under 18. He did not get a single name-many of these rumours are exactly that as the senior Georgian election official went through item by item. The deaths turned out to sometimes true of different people with the same name. As for the under 18s-yes people who did ask for ballots when they were 17 had turned 18 by election day and hence were eligible to vote. There was absolutely minimal “corruption” in this election
They questioned statistical anomalies. They questioned how Biden could under perform Hillary in EVERY Dem enclave except the ones in the swing states. They questioned how places with 90% Dem votes suddenly jumped to 98%. They questioned how massive vote dumps favored Biden each time and did so in the states where it mattered. And they questioned how a man who barely left his basement managed to win more votes than his old boss by taking fewer counties.
Apparently it would have been physically impossible for anyone present at Trump’s speech to have got to the Capitol in time for when it kicked off. Any truth in this?
If so, the incitement charge looks a little flimsy…
Miguelito
3 years ago
This article is hysterical. It would be funny if it wasn’t trying to justify an attempt by a bunch of traitors to overthrow American democracy. The election wasn’t even close. there was no fraud, according to the Republicans running the elections. The votes were then verified, sometimes repeatedly. Trump tried over and over to change the result of a legal election. Then he incited his followers to violence to do that. No one said the threat from Iraq was imminent. They said they invaded Kuwait. Oh yeah, the “WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION”. That was all just another right wing boogey man. You have to expect that from them. They thrive on made up stories to incite fear to drive their base since their policies generally suck. d**k Cheney may be one of the worst criminals in American history in terms of damage he did to America. Seriously, Iraq was way over there. Trump is right here. So the flaw in this impeachment proceeding is that Pelosi waited a week to serve the articles? She’s not that worried about a violent coup as the rioters at the Capitol mostly looked like losers and the National Guard will cover the rest until the FBI gets them into jail. Those fines are going to sting! The Articles of Impeachment are about the most obvious law – Sedition. It was obviously the law to invoke against someone that instigated an attack on Congress to force them to overturn a legal election. Oh, you couldn’t “actually sit down and read it”? It was just a couple pages. I like short laws. Incitement is when you tell a crowd to go surround Congress and they immediately go do it. That is exactly what happened. It was the last step in months of incitement with Trump dishonestly claiming the election was stolen. It doesn’t matter that Trump might or might not have known they were going there to execute Congressional Representatives and overthrow the outcome of the Electoral College. They were going to reverse the outcome of the American Election. That is overthrowing the government. Attempting to do that is called Sedition. He told them to go there to “take back the country – that is overturn the election. Could, would have, might have, might not have… are all out weighted by what they did do. They attacked Congress! It was Sedition and they shall pay painfully. Hopefully they will be rooted out of all American Institutions. My parents fought the NAZIs in WWII. They would fight these fascists too.
Jesus. The protestors at the Capitol broke a window. One of their own number was shot dead on very little provocation. If she’d been black / disabled / lesbian would she have been a freedom fighter in your eyes? They made no noticeable attempts to overturn the government. You’ve succumbed utterly to the bumgas narrative of idiots like Pelosi and AOC. Trump simply asked people to turn out, he didn’t tell them to invade the building, bring weapons or try to overturn the government. Your whole argument runs off the fumes of your own Trump derangement and MSM brainwashing. With such a fearsome imagination and projection you must be scared to leave the house most days.
Nicholas Staveley STANLEY MBE
3 years ago
Michael, with all due respect, you are attempting to defend the indefensible! Trump polarises opinion and more people hate him than those who love him right now! The problem is not related to Freedom of Speech becoming eroded – in the USA. The problem is Trump himself. It is as simple as this; He is just not a very nice man – and an extremely lazy President!Him, Donald Trump the person and not the Republican Party. Republicans do the best they can, as do the Democrats and, whichever party is in power, good governance depends on strong opposition and welcomes differing opinions!
Perhaps you should notify Twitter and Facebook that strong opposition and differing opinions are necessary ingredients for good governance.
Anton van der Merwe
3 years ago
The level of motivated reasoning in this article is astonishing. A typical Trump apologist who uses specious comparisons very cleverly. The experience of reading this is much like listening to that other right wing ‘intellectual’ Jordan Peterson. Ugh. One wants to shower for weeks…..
Jaunty Alooetta
3 years ago
The author attempts to equate political speech by activists and journalists in the summer to what Trump did on 6 January. This is a false equivalence. Sure, lots of people said incendiary stuff. But the difference is that Trump is the most powerful man in the world, who was peddling an outrageous lie to falsely stoke grievance to overturn an election and criminally remain in power. That demands a robust response.
What did Trump do? Please point to the words or actions; don’t simply repeat what you’ve been told. And this summer was just a bit more than “speech by activists or journalists.” It caused billions in damage and a few dozen deaths.
What lie was peddled? About a third of Dems believe the election was not on the up and up. Evidence has been produced and to date, no court has bothered with an actual hearing on the matter. You being told that it’s a lie does not make it so. There are numerous statistical anomalies involved, enough to merit a closer look which, for some reason, the left refuses to consider.
Give me a break. If you’re so brainwashed and desperate that you swallow all the Trumpian falsehood hook, line and sinker, you’re free to do so. Good luck with it. You may find some unicorns, too. I’ll stick to evidence.
Tell you what. Why don’t you gather all the gold-dust evidence you want to believe is there, and get up the court case that 60 others failed to do. Then we can sensibly talk.
You seem wilfully obtuse about how court systems work. The cases were not heard because the evidence put forward was deemed ridiculous by by judges. There is no evidence.
Some cases were dismissed for lack of standing and others based on the merits of the voter fraud allegations. The decisions came from both Democratic-appointed and Republican-appointed judges ““ including federal judges appointed by Trump.
Not a single case has been adjudicated on the merits of the evidence. When courts are refusing to even consider cases, some might wonder why. Especially in light of numerous statistical anomalies.
On the surface, technicalities. Beyond that, not a place they wanted to go. Imagine the loss of public trust if problems WERE proven. Instead, there is a loss of trust anyway.
You can ponder that if you like. Most people will be correctly impressed by the fact that Lying Team Trump threw warehouses full of doodoo at the wall and none of it stuck, because it was just dishonest doodoo.
Except it’s not what “most people” are doing. When a third of Dems believe something screwy happened, you can ignore it, but it does not change that people are skeptical.
It means basically ‘the ability of a party to demonstrate to the court sufficient connection to and harm from the law or action challenged to support that party’s participation in the case’ e.g. if someone calls you an idiot I can’t sue them for libel.
You should say there were statistical aberrations and causes for concern. However, there is no evidence of a planned attempt to rig the election by a malign actor. Current evidence of fraud would not overturn the result.
However, there is no evidence of a planned attempt to rig the election by a malign actor. There is plenty of evidence, in the form of signed affidavits and more than a few videos, that suggest something improper may have occurred. The statistical aberrations are just one more thing that should have merited a closer look. If that second look reveals the result as an honest one, so be it. But dismissing all of the above out of hand is bad faith, and it bodes poorly for the system.
Affidavits amount to testimony and are done under penalty of perjury. When a court refuses to hear a case, that’s not justice. Again, if a second look only confirms the result, then that’s what happens. But when people fight this hard to prevent a closer look, it raises a eyebrow or two.
The courts have rejected the cases because of flimsy evidence. That is not suppression. The Trump campaign have failed in 60 court cases. If you just blame any event you don’t like on the deep state no one can help you.
The courts have not considered the evidence. They relied on procedural issues and technicalities. There has yet to a hearing that pondered the evidence.
I am not a legal expert but I am fairly certain that is not how the law works. You have provide evidence that your case is worth hearing in relation to the allegation. The Trump campaign have failed in this task, therefore, their cases have been rejected. If you can’t explain those technicalities maybe you should defer to a legal expert rather than defaulting to conspiracies. Just a thought.
You can have all the evidence you want. If the judge decides some procedural matter is in question, the evidence is not heard. Was the TX lawsuit misguided? No one knows. Because the Supreme Court used ‘standing’ as the means for not hearing the case at all. Multiple state legislatures had hearings where people testified about what they saw, but they’re not courts.
On Thursday, a judge rejected the Trump campaign’s attempt to throw out absentee ballots in the Bucks County case, noting, “The parties specifically stipulated in their comprehensive stipulation of facts that there exists no evidence of any fraud, misconduct, or any impropriety with respect to the challenged ballots. There is nothing in the record and nothing alleged that would lead to the conclusion that any of the challenged ballots were submitted by someone not qualified or entitled to vote in this election.”
The Courts have rejected almost every case not on ‘flimsy evidence’ – they have never heard the damned evidence for God’s sake – but on very narrow legalistic procedure grounds usually around ‘standing’.
n a separate state case in Montgomery County, Pa., a judge asked Trump lawyer Jonathan S. Goldstein whether he was alleging fraud. “Your honor, accusing people of fraud is a pretty big step,” Goldstein said. “And it is rare that I call somebody a liar, and I am not calling the Board of the [Democratic National Committee] or anybody else involved in this a liar. Everybody is coming to this with good faith.” The judge pressed Goldstein to answer the specific question: “Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these 592 disputed ballots?” To which Goldstein replied: “To my knowledge at present, no.”
I wonder if you could explain something. How is it possible for 10300+ dead people to have voted ? How is it in one county 135000 people voted and yet 106000 of those votes had to be ‘adjudicated’.
Further, as you mention Pennsylvania, I wonder how it is that the Governor, Secretary of State and the State Supreme Court where able to amend Election Law when the Constitution clear states that this is the exclusive prerogative of the State Legislature.
Please quote where Trump asked people to invade the Capitol building and overthrow the government. His efforts to change the election results all went through the appropriate legal channels. It was the embodiment of democracy in action through the judiciary.
Jaunty Alooetta
3 years ago
It is not a “rash over-reaction” to impeach a president for using brazen lies to incite a mob to march on the Capitol just as lawmakers were certifying the results of the election.
It’s called a Mostly Peaceful Protest (except – that they neglected to burn anything down). Keep up with the times – you sound like a fossil from The Sixties, or something.
Democratic side just does not listen to the other side. You simply don’t. And that is frustrating to them. You have to understand that. And remember that every time there is censorship and dominion of information from only one side.
Always listen to the other side. Otherwise, the other side has no other resource to call for your attention than a punch in the face.
You just don’t understand how utterly frustrating it is to live with your “we are the good guys and we are always right always right, so f u” attitude. I blame on violence on that.
Kerry Evans
3 years ago
Trump is a horrible, evil, hateful individual who wants nothing but power for himself. If you cannot see that, in every one of his actions and responses for the past five years, then you have as many screws loose as he does. He has sown nothing but bigotry and animosity during his entire term and the US is surely worse off for it. That ALONE warrants his removal. It was warranted day one. He is an ugly smear on this nation and on humanity in general. His association with that angry, violent and sadistic mob of terrorists is repugnant. He is getting what he deserves and I hope he gets ever more.
“Trump is a horrible, evil, hateful individual who wants nothing but power for himself.” Just like his opponents then. It wasn’t Trump who rampaged around Portland burning, looting. and assaulting people.
So you call Trump a horrible, evil person and suggest his supporters are angry and violent low-lifes, yet HE is the one sowing animosity? Do you people even hear yourselves?
The left effectively sanctioned months of rioting and murder – in its own cities, by the way – and the same people now strangling the straws either justified that violence or said nothing about it. And is the BLM guy charged in the Capitol incident part of Team Trump? How about the son of a Brooklyn judge who was also arrested?
Wow. Trump Derangement Syndrome for certain. He apparently never did exercise his extensive Presidential powers as others had done. While much of his conduct as huckster in chief was appalling, his actions were quite responsible and had public utility.
Remember the ‘comedian’ Kathy Griffin holding up for the cameras a bloodied severed head of Trump just after he was elected? Or Madonna on TV saying she wanted to blow up the White House? And Maxine Waters exhorting her followers to take to the streets and revolt? I guess that sort of thing is acceptable to the media elite.
Interesting you believe the opinions and actions of comedians and has been pop stars are as relevant as those of the President.
Interesting that you ignore calls for violence – and for some reason, skate right past those calls from elected members of Congress – while unable to show where Trump’s words precipitated the Capitol event.
The principle of free speech does not include different guidelines for politicians, celebrities, and common folks. But, yes; when someone with name recognition is actively calling for violence, it might worthy of discussion.
Yes, I did skate right past the Maxine Waters comment, because the media *did* make a big deal about that. A simple google search would show that.
And surely you can see the absurdity of saying “what about what Madonna said” on a discussion about the leader of the free world’s rhetoric and actions leading up to a deadly riot at America’s seat of power.
And calm down mate no one’s talking about limiting free speech.
That explains big tech doing the bidding of the Dem party in going after opponents. And it explains AOC’s notion of a commission to ‘rein in’ the media.
It’s not just Waters. It was also the House Speaker. It was also the incoming VP, who also championed a bail fund for arrested protesters. No one suggested that any of these three be stripped of office. No one even suggested a meaningless censure.
Raising money for jailbirds is not the same thing as pushing for a revolt.
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You really are missing the point. Apart from anything else, it is sending a signal that will encourage the rioters. You can do what you like and there will be no consequences.
Good – about time someone pointed that out!
It does not matter which side you are – if you cannot understand why Trump’s stirring of the simpletons’ mob creates a “clear and present danger” of precedent, you are being partial enough to deserve being ignored in constructive discussion.
Everyone has the right to speak in a free democracy, and before the left progressive censor cancel cult arrived , good and bad speech in the free market of ideas usually met a just fate.Free speech served the democracies who observed it well, to become places all in the world wanted to be.The totalitarian tyrannies that imposed their thought monopolies o humanity…many have failed and fallen, and the human traffic is escape from them to free democracies of the more stable, prosperous…and free west.
Don, imagine that I would stir up a psychopatic neighbour of yours with bald lies, convincing him that you are the sole cause of his personal misery and that by right he should break into your house and hang you from a noose. Would you defend my actions under the guise of “freedom of speech”? How about I complain that you are trying to “cancel” my opinion? I am sorry if this comes across as harsh, but it is a direct and fair comparison to your argument above. Think about it for a moment – Trump stirring simpletons to commit crimes has no relation whatsoever with freedom of expression in any shape or form.
So are you are trying to say that the yahoos somehow did not act of their own volition??
So you are trying to focus on something other than the question asked, which was about “freedom of expression”?
Andre, you are making the sounds and rationales of the liberal left progressives , who have incited and condoned violent insurrectionist revoloution mobs with scores killed and estimated 2 billion dollars in damage, as well as in incite hate , persecution , censorship, ,impoverishment to any and all noncompliant dissenting citizens.As usual, you and the left are far more verifiably guilty of your accusations than your targets.
In your hypothetical example, both the individual who incited violence and the one who committed it are subject to existing criminal.law and due process …no need for a free democracy to have you appoint yourself monitor ,police, judge , jury and executioner in your hypothesis
Suppresing free speech is the act of totalitarian tyrannies.
You would probably find yourself facing a charge of incitement. If you had only told the guy that his neighbour was the cause of all his problems, you wouldn’t.
The problem with your scenario is that Trump didn’t actually tell his fans to hang anyone. He told them to walk to the Capitol and make a lot of noise. Awkwardly for you, he even told them to do it peacefully, twice I think.
How are you going to find Trump guilty of incitement when he specifically instructed the demonstrators to be peaceful? I’m sure you and lots of other people are convinced that Trump didn’t really mean that – but how are you going to prove it?
Nobody who brought a noose to the Capitol tried to hang anyone from it, just like none of the BLM/Antifa or assorted leftist anti-Trump activists who set up a guillotine at one of their protests tried to actually behead anyone. In both causes the objects were being used as symbols, albeit very tasteless ones, but maybe that was the point.
But you do not have the right to shout ‘Fire’ in a crowded theatre. This is the simple and inviolable principle that bears on the words and actions of Trump and Hawley.
I believe that the actual quote from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. is to “falsely yell fire”. Now, of course it would be better to quietly point out such a conflagration to police or staff so they can assist people out before the danger of lost human life. But a proper and necessary allowance for human frailty must be nurtured if we’re not to become a police state. Some people will inevitably panic when they see a fire. That’s just the way it is.
Now, whatever you think of the above, how are Trump and Hawley’s words and actions so much worse than those of Waters, Pelosi, and Harris, or of a number of blue state governors and big city mayors?
Actually that is not true. You need to do some research.
https://www.google.com/amp/…
You certainly do if there is one.
Again, genuine request; point me to the speeches or other means by which he incited the riot. Preferably something as glaring obvious as the speeches and actions of the Democrats inspiring up the preceding four years of rioting, looting, burning and killing.
Let me help you with the English: “We are going to the capitol”. ” If you don’t fight like hell you’re not going to have a country anymore”. “We will stop the steal”. Out of sheer fanaticism you may try to “interpret” these phrases as innocent or peaceful, but such interpretation does not really matter. What counts is that Trump lost the election (and this is beyond dispute), his words above will get him impeached and delusional “interpretations” cannot change the facts. But feel free to believe whatever you wish – as long as you respect the law, you’re free to believe in Trump’s victory, Santa Claus or whatever else that rocks your boat.
This seems fairly mild, and requiring of far more reading between the lines, than the vicious incitement by the Dems over the last (4) year(s), but you, too, are free to read into it what you want.
And I have made no comment, as far as I can remember, on whether he won or lost the election; your attribution to me of sentiments I have not expressed weakens your arguments.
My concern is also that the law is respected. But that means Trump doesn’t get convicted of incitement, because he did not instruct or encourage anyone to break the law and he specifically told the demonstrators to go “peacefully” to the Capitol.
To get someone convicted of a crime, there needs to be solid proof: in this case you need words spoken by Trump that cannot reasonably be interpreted in any other way than inciting lawless behaviour.
If you want Trump’s words to be enough to get him locked up, you need vaguer laws and broader restrictions, the kind that exist in tyrannies like the Soviet Union or China, where a wide range of actions can be interpreted as criminal or antisocial or anti-state in order to silence any opposition.
“Go to the Capitol” (a public place all Americans have the right to go to); ” fight like hell” (something politicians tell their supporters all the time), “the election was stolen” (something Hillary still moans about)…and if you were to apply the same standards to speech that frequently came out of the mouths of Democrats this past year, you would have to convict them for incitement too. Don’t get me wrong; I wish Trump had tempered his speech more. But standards need to be applied equally.
But if “clear and present danger” were all that was required, without any reference to “imminent lawless behaviour”, you could prosecute anyone who calls for a demonstration or protest where violence is likely to break out – like the BLM demonstrations or Occupy demonstrations, anti-Trump marches and even the civil rights marches from the 1960s.
As I understand it, the “clear and present danger” refers specifically to the danger of “imminent lawless behaviour” that is incited. Saying “the election was stolen” is not incitement – it might be reckless and unstatesmanlike and irresponsible and inflammatory, but that is not the same as incitement.
Give me a break; the left with its MSM allies had been “stirring the simpleton’s [sic] mob” , fanning the flames of disorder and instability for nine months before that, with no repercussions. I don’t know where people get this idea that the US Capitol is any more sacred or worthy of protection than any other federal building. Or did the lives of terrorized federal employees in Portland matter less than those of Members of Congress in D.C.? Riots of any kind are disgusting, but brazen and rank hypocrisy is equally disgusting.
As a matter of interest, can you point me to the speech(es) in which he incited these actions please? This is a genuine request; I have been unable to find any and would like to see the evidence upon which this charge is based.
J A, did you notice thatTrump was speaking English?
As I have asked, politely and genuinely, where will I find the speech(es)? It will be so damning that it must be all over the internet but I am unable to find it, which might be solely due to my incompetence so, please, post a reference.Your non-response detracts from your plausibility.
Sorry J A, you are not unable to locate Trump’s phrases (“fight like hell”, etc.) which are all over the press for the whole planet to read. What you are trying is to “interpret” Trump’s vile words as something other than an incitement to the violence that followed. And if you refuse to acknowledge the connection, it is pointless for me to point it out. Good night.
“Fight like hell” is NOT an incitement to violence. You can “fight” (“like hell” or otherwise) by speaking in public, writing letters or emails (as here on Unherd), attending rallies, marching peaceably, even chanting in rhythm. And I’m pretty sure you’d recognize that fact if it was someone you liked who said or wrote the phrase.
Tom, as I wrote in response to J A ‘s similar “argument” in another thread, I am glad that your playing-down of Trump’s stirring up of the mob is inconsequential. The people who will decide Trump’s fate are not married to the illusions you guys keep “arguing”. But go ahead “fighting like hell” as you wish, provided you don’t break the law. Trump did, and will now pay for it. Regardless of whatever interpretation you may have of the facts.
I’m afraid Andre Lower is suffering from a bad case of wishful thinking.
I’ve read all his posts on this thread, and he seems not to realise that any conviction of Trump depends on incontrovertible proof.
Instead of ‘fight like hell’ he should have said ‘protest peacefully’ as the TDS MSM is able to make anything mean anything they wish. (and as we know Peaceful Protesting can mean anything up to and including killing, looting, arson, vandalism, and violence)
I was interested in finding out what proof the left liberal Democrats were presenting to support their accusation of incitement of violent mob insurrection against their political rival President Trump.It seems to centered on the line,”If you not going to fight like hell, you are not going to have a country anymore.” Rhetoric like this and far more pointedly violent mob inciting and insurrectionist has launched many actual left mobs violence, destruction , assaults, deaths in the multitude of left riots all last year during the pandemic. I do not think that line would be proof of the charge, but we are living in a world where the left is falsely accusing dissenters of things are more guilty of to silence and persecute them.
When Jan 21 comes and passes , the Democrats obsessive spiteful hate of hurrying the lynching and humiliation of Trump and Democrat Pelosi wide eyed fear mongering we have to get him out before he nukes will be seen as more false defamatory alarms and they will have failed to remove him as he finishes his term, their rush to impeachment failed , and their reason for haste unnecessary and false.
Americans and the world will see a unjustly persecuted Trump,and the delayed impeachment long after the horse left the barn will.be seen as hateful spite and a moot point ,even if it does pass to guilty , which it may not.
Really looks like the newly governing liberal Democrats mostly shot themselves in the foot on this one, their first act in.power.
IT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID, BUT WHAT HE WAS THINKING. Speech is free, it is wrong thought which is punishable. Dorsey and Zukerberg and Pilosi and all the MSM understand this, why can’t you?
Ah! I understand now. I think I love Big Brother!
Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways.
Alex point is that there plenty of left wing voices that have incited violence and gives specific examples and evidence , yet the left are currently silencing, deplatforming , destroying and impoverishing only their political rivals with this hypocritical , virtue signaling accusation.
Even when given verifiable evidence of incitement to violence , woke censor trollsclike yourself evade that truth with irrelevant segues.
Your posts prove the left is guilty of everything they falsely accuse and smear their targets with to silence dissent.
“Deadly riot”? Lol, after all the deaths in the riots of last summer…exactly one person was definitely and deliberately killed, and that was an unarmed protester, by police. And since when did “America’s seat of power” acquire the sacredness of the Forbidden City? Most of the people who entered the US Capitol were allowed in by security. A minority of them engaged in wanton violence and vandalism, and were rightly arrested and charged for it. Strangely, though, they set nothing on fire (maybe burning down buildings something only the left like to do when they riot). Also interesting that a major participant and instigator in the riot, who has since been arrested, was a former well-known BLM member and agitator. Did Trump’s “rhetoric and actions” incite him, too? Police got all the intruders out of the building within an hour or two. I’m not disagreeing it was a riot, but as riots go, it was a pretty tame one.
Maxine Waters and the VP elect also said far more specific speech that encouraged violence. The actors have a high profile opportunity that regular citizens don’t have and endorsed more specific violence against the President of the US. So yes, they are grouped in there.
I fear that opinions of pop stars – and late night “comedians” are very relevant. Since the first day of Trump’s election, the likes of Stephen Colbert, etc who have huge audiences amongst the bi-coastal elites have done nothing but make fun of Trump and his supporters in the most demeaning of ways. They didn’t even need writers – just riff off the daily headlines. Talk about incitement –they are masters of the art.
It got so bad that I gave up years ago and longed for the return of the best – and a-political nighttime host – Johnny Carson.
Johnny Carson was wonderful, and the kind of comedians who provide us with entertainment are arguably a necessary part of our lives. But there always have been those comedians who are social and political satirists and comedians who provide us with perspectives that are often taboo in some way. Charlie Chaplin and Lenny Bruce immediately come to mind as well as George Carlin. Showing the other side of “truth” is not incitement. It is wisdom.
I quite agree, but the days of the comedian who makes fun of anyone and everything without bias, have given way to comedians who have only one stance and appear blind to anything which runs counter to their narrative, no matter how ‘funny’ that thing may be. No-one has laughed at Kamala, Nancy or AOC, or Joe, regardless of how ludicrous they have been – and, my god, have they been ludicrous. You do not need script, a straight recitation of some of their behaviour would have anyone in stitches – if it were not so deeply worrying!
George Carlin hated All Governments ,Banks,politicians See his ”politicians” If youtube hasn’t removed it..Thanks to Woke ”Comedians” in uk programmes purporting to be ”Funny” are risible ..especially iTV,BBC
Mark Russell and Mort Sahl are/were other even-handed satirists. (I believe that both are still alive, but haven’t from either in quite some time, hence the “are/were”.) Incidentally, Sahl’s career is an indication that Left or liberal hypocrisy about speech is not an entirely new thing. He rose to fame making jokes about President Eisenhower and Veep Nixon during the 1950s. But, when the Democrat John F. Kennedy was elected to succeed Ike as POTUS, he found that the nightclubs and other venues that had previously engaged him became far fewer in number. He remarked in a later interview with Playboy Magazine that such people were very dangerous. I’d have to agree, and say sadly that little has changed in 60 years.
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Yeah, you would have a point if Trump made a video where he displayed something purporting to be the bloody severed head of Creepy Joe Biden or Crazy Nancy Pelosi. He didn’t, so you really don’t have a point to make.
Of course. The points about Madonna and Kathy Griffin is preposterous and laughable whataboutery.
Imagine trying to make a parallel between something an entertainer says to get a weak laugh and Trump telling the Proud Boys – a wannabe Freikorps – to ‘Stand by’? FFS.
They really are a bunch of pathetic, self-piteous, whiny losers. Just like their President! They deserve one another.
Unfortunately, in these times, that sort of people are the first stop of a large proportion of the population when it comes to looking for information or, rather, advice on how and what to think.
Wasn’t there a coven of witches that put a curse on Trump when he won the 2016 election? And didn’t the so-called “Democrats” start work on an attempt to bring about his fall right away? They failed again and again and I believe that whatever they try now Donald Trump will become a popular hero among people who have resisted the brainwashing attempts of the Main Stream Media hyenas.
He lost the midt-terms election and 2020 by 7m votes!
So who exactly are the people?
the 74M that voted Trump or the 81M that voted Biden?
I think they’re all people, don’t you?
But it’s a damn good question – which is “THE” people? You know, the by, for, and of chaps?
The vast numbers of fake votes for Mr Biden were not people. Some people did indeed vote for Mr Biden – but nothing like the numbers claimed.
Blimey Unherd is toxic, 12 upticks to 3 the other way to a statement without a shred of evidence. Trump is the most antiAmerican president to date – no respect for the rule of law, (don’t actually think he understands what the rule of law is – he has the attention of a toddler ) or respect for all court decisions. Thank God polls in the U.K. say that not one U.K. constituency would have voted for Trump. Every single on would support Biden. Bet that’s the same for every European country.
These will be the polls that consistently get our elections and so forth wrong, I presume.
The polls called the US election relatively well. Or they also part of the conspiracy
“Thank God polls in the U.K. say that not one U.K. constituency would have voted for Trump. “………
is the comment by Martin Butler that I am replying to – nothing to do with any US polls.
Okay then. The UK polls called the last GE correctly
Actually, they did, didn’t they? Well, if you guess something often enough you are bound to have the odd success; still would not trust them to tell me the time, much like the BBC etc from whom a large number of those who will have been polled will have received their relentless anti-Trump indoctrination. Those of us who take the time to look beyond the legacy media and the Beeb may have a more nuanced view of the situation. Don’t get me wrong, I am not sure Trump would be a guest at my all time dinner party (although it could be interesting), but the Orange-man bad hysteria over here is almost as bad as it is with a section of the American public. And, on the most generous view of Joe, I fail to see why anyone would vote for someone who has done nothing in forty plus years. That he has any support from the black community is staggering considering the damage he has been complicit in visiting on their communities; remember, Kamala Harris had a lot against him until offered a place on the ticket, when all that was conveniently swept under the carpet.
The UK also have a ‘Boris man bad’ narrative. And it’s been very successful.
Polling in the UK is quite good. There is always a margin of error
OK, but I still think the understanding of the average UK citizen of what is happening in America is highly distorted by the BBBc and the legacy media. The hypocrisy of the media (and the Democrats in general) is breathtaking.
I love most of the content on Unherd, but I agree most of the comments here have a disappointing lack of focus on the main issue. An incumbent president, facing defeat at the polls, built a false narrative of a stolen election, and his actions in pursuit of remaining in power led to a riot. This should be what people keep in mind when they comment about whether or not they like Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden or the Democrat agenda.
This article doesn’t dispute what you’re saying about Trump, with which I concur. It’s about aspects of the situation which are accurately described.
I do.
No one seriously believed that Joseph Biden, who struggled to get a dozen people to his events, got 81 million votes. Do not be silly Mr Smith.
How many of the 81M were, as the Irish would say “dead at the time”?
You know about those things because those things were coved by MSM.
Maxime Waters is stupid but she is a congresswoman not the President of USA.
Maxine Walter is a liberal Democrat political leader on proven record of inciting violence, and is currently rushing to try to impeach a political rival and President of something she is guilty of.
Splitting hairs a bit, there. She’s still a political leader, a LAWMAKER, and as obligated by her position and her oath to uphold law and order as the President is. She instead used her position and influence to encourage her followers to break the law. And so what if the media covered it? The media obsessively covered everything Trump did or said for four years, too. Lack of coverage is not the point; the point is how much criticism and backlash she received from the MSM, which was very little.
Elvis Costello once told a journalist he wanted “Michael Howard’s head on a platter with an apple in it’s mouth”. Wonder how this would go down if some hero of the right said the same thing about Biden.
You would hear the squealing from outer space, I should think. Or imagine if someone on the right pulled a stunt like Kathy Griffin’s, holding up a severed head of the President like a member of ISIS. Such antics are disgusting no matter which side does them.
Fantastic picture of the Pilosi standing on a massive dais flanked by two huge Fasces on each side of her! How utterly perfectly it shows her true self and purpose. Only thing wrong is the American Flag directly behind her, which should be changed for a flag with a black, raised, fist.
Not to mention a British comedian who shall remain nameless urging people on national ratio to attack Nigel Farage with acid.
America has been, as somebody once described, in the grip of a low level civil war for sometime, and actions such as this are so obviously purely and cynically politically motivated.
Only a fool would claim that this piece of political theatre will pour oil on the troubled waters of the toxic climate that persists in the US at the moment.
Few would condone the storming of the Capitol that day but, equally, one wonders who would condone the ironically named Democrats’ near insatiable, interminable, all consuming efforts to remove the previously elected president of the United States over the last five years by any spurious means possible rather than, god forbid, actually do their job and put forward any genuine, considered political alternative to his political agenda over that time.
“rather than, god forbid, actually do their job and put forward any
genuine, considered political alternative to his political agenda over
that time.”
The Democrats have done so unceasingly. However their proposals have generally been blocked by the Republican-held Senate.
“…the Republican-held Senate.”
Which was elected.
I can view the attack on Trump as being catastrophically stupid without being a Trump supporter. I am neutral and cannot imagine voting for either the Democrats or the Republicans – When civil war beckons then don’t expect sweet reason to come to the fore.
Really?
Not too big on keeping up with current events, are we, Nick?
Not low level civil war. But a full scale CULTURAL war.
United States of America is in reality three regions or blocks of States. The Regions are:
1 – East Coast is liberal and radical.
2 – West Coast is liberal and debt laden.
3 – Central States are very conservative.
1+2 believe CNN, NY Times; Washington Post;
3 believes Fox News.
Will the 3 regions agree on the cultural future?
No chance IMHO.
3) Look at Texas map. Cities (where things happen) are democrat – rural areas are Republican. It also applies to North Carolina or Georgia.
Well said. It is not only the geographic blocks that divide the US. It is the reality that groups of people have been made invisible and have little to no voice, regardless of where they may live. Much of what it going on has to do with the disenfranchisement felt by blue collar workers and service workers, and the low level hum of racial hatred against black people, those perceived as minorities, and the virtual nonexistence in discourse of American Indians. As long as government is not focused on all the people, there will always be an undercurrent of dissatisfaction fueling the kinds of things we are seeing now.
I have said before, America’s Trump was Britains Brexit; a cry from the heart of those masses neglected and despised by the people who were supposed to be looking after their interests. I find the parallels between the Brexit process and the polarisation it has caused (or brought out into the open) and the Trump saga quite remarkable.
I’m with you for the first part, JT. However, there the parallels end; the polarisation in the UK over Brexit is a typically understated irritated piss-taking. Whereas the level of visceral hatred between the two wings in the US is palpably frightening – even from 3,600 miles away.
If it teaches us, in the UK, anything; it is that we must resist the advance of American style polarising politics with every means we have. There are many things to be admired out of American culture, but their politics isn’t one of them.
All the best.
Yes. To do that we need to not adopt their polarising critical race theories. There has been some movement on that. We need to not adopt their extreme libertarianism or jump onboard their their neo conservative wars.
Thank you. I agree entirely that the temperature of the debate here is much lower than in the US (thank god). In fact, I nearly made that point in my original comment. I’m reminded of Victoria Wood who, apropos of something she had commented on said “there will be a riot….all over England (or it may have been Solihull) people will be going …” at which point she shrugged her shoulders, rolled her eyes and sighed. Very funny (one of the comedians I wish there were more of now!) We tolerate a hell of a lot before we take to the streets, but if the present situation continues, I do wonder if even we will eventually be driven to it. I am 72 but would be prepared to join in if it became the only option. However, as with the Capitol event, open rebellion could be just what ‘they’ intend in order to facilitate even more crackdowns on our freedoms. We are in one hell of a dilemma.
However Democrat young Yuppies have Left San Francisco ,New York (800,000 i know some will be Republican_) for Republican States..
Not all central states are conservative. Illinois has always been liberal; Chicago is the nation’s third largest city and very similar to New York.
Liberal left Chicago also has one of the highest murder rates in the country.
Agreed Chicago is liberal and its large population wins the State. However rural Illinois is conservative in its cultural views. Similar voting pattern/views as NY NY and New York State.
They are illiberal Liberals.. Trump wanted Less Taxes for Blue collar workers,;,cheap energy.. Senile Biden &his sheep have Accepted Paris Protocol,already Energy prices are rising from 4 years of below inflation rises!
Very well put.
A good calm read – I’ve been waiting many days for this.
Having seen the first hour of the Capitol disturbance, it became obvious that no calm or impartial coverage would follow on any U.K. MSM channel, and they would be just re-running excitable US coverage uncritically, without analysis – and without end.
Yet another reason not to trust or watch BBC News …
None of the “news” outlets carried the peaceful protest that was taking place the majority of the day, nor the videos of Trump supporters trying to stop the ones trying to break in.
After the impeachment the fbi admits they have arrested an Antifa member and that this was a planned event thus Trump not the one who instigated the breach of the capital. Are they going to overturn this disgusting rush to impeachment?
It’s not clear if the impeachment can be reversed. Irrational emotional responses coupled with actual hatred produced the impeachment; regret may come after the next election. We expect representative leaders to be measured in their deliberations. Treating impeachment so casually will have long term consequences. Pelosi herself may represent more of a threat to democracy than Trump.
The entire leadership of the Democratic party represents a threat to freedom of speech and the freedom to vote for and support a political candidate they do not approve of. There are those who want a list of Trump supporters and enablers to be compiled so that punitive action can be taken against them; this includes the 70million plus who voted for him. They are prepared to punish half the electorate for having the temerity to have an opinion contrary to theirs and act upon it. They make MCarthy look sane. (Given how the left have marched through the institutions of the West to the point where we are today, I am beginning to wonder if Mcarthy did not have the right idea, even if it was badly executed)
It was Pelosi herself that called Trump a racist when he shutdown flights from China in late January in an attempt belatedly to stop the virus. Clearly she has no foresight.
No need Impeaching an outgoing president is illegal in the Constitution,I know Democrats like changing Voting procedures in Swing states ..
The hypocrisy is jarring. The rhetoric in some outlets has been as if a highly trained private army was callously marching through the building slaughtering politicians with high powered assault weapons. But there are videos out there of the ‘mob’ keeping behind the ropes like they were on a guided tour. Compared to the ‘justified and mostly peaceful’ protests last year. Biden stated he was going to try to heal divisions within the US but before he’s even in power the Dems are stoking the fire with hyperbole. As I stated on another thread, someone needs to be the bigger person here to make.some progress. Trump failed in that over the last few weeks. Biden is not doing any better.
You are correct – but what price should the Republican members of Congress and Senate pay for supporting Trump’s claims that the “election was stolen”. I would pardon trump if Cruz, Hawley and Co resign from Congress/Senate.
Otherwise you are asking the Democrats to be the bigger party (that is what you are asking!) while Republicans party – institutionally – supports and elects nutjobs.
The first rule of handling customer complaints is to acknowledge that the complaint exists not just deny it.
Allowing an impartial investigation into Trump’s claims of vote rigging might have pacified things.
US Elections are not customer complain.
Trump has lost 61 courts cases (Federal and state) because of lack of evidence!
…
???
Morse code?
US Elections are not customer complain.
And yet the Democrats still have not, in their hearts, conceded the 2016 election!
“lack of evidence” – Nonsense. Evidence has not been heard. Cases were dismissed on procedural grounds without witnesses being called. The evidence remains nebulous at best but investigations are likely to continue for years. At issue is what to do if organized widespread fraud is revealed?
I can believe the Swamp considered their cause so noble that they would steal an election to stop Trump. You’ll need more than a few bits of grainy video footage to convince me that they did. It’s a country of 330million, you can probably prove aliens stole the election if you look hard enough.
The first rule of handling customer complaints is to acknowledge that the complaint exists not just deny it.
Thank you! This was what I said right from the start with Brexit, when the concerns of ordinary people were not even denied by the political class, but simply dismissed as the voicing of xenophobic racism.
Absolutely! It is time to purge all wrong thinking persons from government and society…bring on the mono-culture, and it’s “great revolution”.
The evidence is considerable that there was computer fraud carried out in the 2020 Presidential election (it could even be seen on TV recordings) it was massively over and above the usual endemic degree of voter fraud present in USA elections.
The Dems complained about fraud in 2016 election when Trump won, now it does not exist because they won.
Truth will not prevail in the present febrile atmosphere of a corrupt system, so there remains little point in debating it, until voters demand change, which may end up in revolution and/or the breakup of the Americian Federal State system, creating a much more dangerous world.
Republics do not last indefinitely,they eventually fail due to corruption, history stands in evidence of that.
And yet Trump lost 61 courts cases because of lack of evidence. Claiming here fraud is not the same thing as proving it in court!
…
What if the election was stolen? Why should congressmen be punished for representation of their constituents? Where is freedom of speech?
But it wasn’t stolen. Trump had 61 court cases REJECTED for the lack of evidence.
Members of congress have the right to free speech they also have the RESPONSIBILITY to manage the affairs’ of the state.
No, the courts didn’t hear the cases. I listened to the 4 hours of evidence presented to Georgia judiciary subcommittee- overwhelming, but nothing done. No one wanted to be responsible for overturning the election as they were afraid of the civil unrest. They took the path of least resistance. Every one deserves their day in court. If you have nothing to his, then prove it.
In a separate state case in Montgomery County, Pa., a judge asked Trump lawyer Jonathan S. Goldstein whether he was alleging fraud. “Your honor, accusing people of fraud is a pretty big step,” Goldstein said. “And it is rare that I call somebody a liar, and I am not calling the Board of the [Democratic National Committee] or anybody else involved in this a liar. Everybody is coming to this with good faith.” The judge pressed Goldstein to answer the specific question: “Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these 592 disputed ballots?” To which Goldstein replied: “To my knowledge at present, no.”
It is easy to call fraud when it supports your candidate. But what about the many years of voter suppression in the South and some other places where black people and poor people have been prevented from voting? This has been an ongoing problem that has never been fully resolved. The incompetence and dangerous actions by the outgoing president need to be the focus, along with finding and holding accountable those who enabled, encouraged and helped him because they are still sitting in their seats undermining the system of government.
…
How do you know it was not stolen? There were 2 kinds of fraud, paper fraud and computer fraud. The main fraud was via voting machines which were decommissioned immediately after the vote to destroy evidence. Only a few
remained, when they were examined by independent analysts it was confirmed that
the voting numbers had been manipulated. The outstanding point made was that
votes were taken off Trump and added to Biden. In a closed system it would not
be possible to subtract votes from any candidate only to add them. In addition
the machines were capable of being connected to the internet and therefore open to hacking both domestically and possibly through foreign interference, for real this time; no wonder many voters feel they have been disenfranchised.
The final problem was created by SCOTUS refusing to take the case, had they done so
the decision win or lose would have been
final and some of the disharmony might have been avoided.
Confirmed by who, where? The head of Homeland security said there wasn’t fraud and that there was a paper trail on 95% of the votes. Bill Barr said there wasn’t significant fraud. The Republican governor and Republican head of elections in Georgia said there was no fraud. All the judges, including Trump appointed ones said there was no evidence of fraud presented.
Only…. only Mr. Trump said there was fraud and he was famous as a liar before he did a cameo as a liar in Home Alone 2.
Globalists ONLY claim elections/ Referendums/referenda are Stolen if they dont like the result…..Only good to come out of SARS2 is the growing mistrust of News media,Worldwide.in UK BBC,ch4,ch5,ITV,Sky ….ineptitude of MPs who are qualified,classics scholars,or barristers but Cannot handle logistics..
There’s an assumption there that all the fault is on the republican side, which I would dispute. But yes, if you want to take it forward someone has to get away with something for the greater good. There are plenty who would argue, for example, that the IRA never got their just desserts in Northern Ireland, but the long term improvement made it worth it. Breaking the cycle includes breaking the blame/revenge part of it. Hard as that may be. I worry that the US politicians don’t have the maturity.
Forcing democratically elected Republicans to resign with a smear by association is an attack on democracy and those Americans voters democratic legal choices…and part of the the now obvious Purge of political opponents.. historically the act of totalitarian tyrannies.
Maybe if they’d burned down the Capitol CNN would have called it a “Mostly peaceful protest”
BBC did here in Summer (Mostly peaceful) with Blm injuring 27 police and defacing statues..
Trump was never really dangerous – Pelosi and those who backher are.
Not to excuse Trump’s overheated rhetoric and inappropriate remarks, the bigger threat to the US system of government is Speaker Pelosi, who by her childish and arrogant conduct has heated things up and set an appalling example. Tearing up the President’s State of the Union speech in full public view whilst standing behind him says everything there is to say about this petulant politician and her contempt for American democracy. It is she who should be impeached.
Exactly.
I had thought I had seen the nadir of a Speaker in the form of the revolting John Bercow, but Pelosi ‘takes the biscuit’ by far.
How on Earth did someone with such obvious character defects ever float to the surface of the US Administration?
The late Nikita Khrushchev when asked a similar question is reputed to have replied, “In this life gold sinks and s**t floats”.
That raises a very interesting point of comparison.
From a position of ignorance, but is the US speaker required to be impartial and effectively ‘partyless’ do you know?
No is the short answer.
If they happen to be from opposite ‘party’ to the President, they are in effect Leader of the Opposition, as ‘we’ would say.
It is however a Constitutional requirement that they suffer as much plastic surgery and Botox as is humanly possible. On this count alone the present incumbent should be awarded a gold medal forthwith.
Alas, unlike Ms Pelosi, I suspect John Bercow was long deemed beyond repair from even the keenest, most talented surgeon’s knife.
Pelosi was too.
She could actually be a stand in for the Addams Family.
You’re seriously comparing Pelosi tearing up a speech to a president insisting at rally after rally and tweet after tweet that the election was rigged, all with zero evidence?
That’s like saying, Sure, Stalin was a bit rum, but the guy who fixed his car was an absolute monster.
…
Hey, I know: why not get some of that “evidence” together and file a suit? It’s sure to go your way in court…
…
…
…
Quit the “where’s the evidence” BS. There were thousands of affidavits and video footage of strange goings on in the counting rooms.
What happened is the courts decided against hearing that evidence and forming a judgement based on it.
Why?
Well, depending on your point of view, either the evidence was too weak to prosecute, or the courts didn’t have the guts to take on such a momentous thing as overturning an election result, however fraudulently reached.
There was, and is, “evidence” and it was taken through the appropriate legal channels.
Pelosi and AOC are a more clear and present danger to American democracy than Trump. Their ridiculous exaggerations, assertions and the hypocrisy about his “incitements” make their own similar statements seem even worse, given the context. How are they allowed on social media?
Pelosi is a rank hypocrite; I don’t know how anyone can still respect her or take her seriously after the hair salon fiasco. Even after she was caught out she refused to just fess up and take ownership of it, instead playing the victim. Why do these people think they’re entitled, unlike their lowly minions, to break their own rules, just to get their damn hair done?
To summarize, for purely political purposes the democrats have hysterically over-reacted to a rioting that was mild in comparison to the destruction, looting, thuggery, thieveing, destruction of police cars, invasion of state capitols, that went on for weeks and months last summer – during the time of the pandemic.
No, I don’t think President Trump will risk his reputation – what is left of it – to run again in 2024,
and more important, I think the Republicans have some excellent younger more moderate candidates who might very well run in 2024.
If, as we expect, the biden administration will essentially be the 3rd obama administration, then in 2022 the democrats may lose control of both houses, or if the time frame for them to totally screw up domestic policy and foreign policy is too short, then by 2024 without a doubt – when Harris will be their presidential candidate and the unbelievable stacy abrams VP candidate – then they will lose very heavily.
Well, let’s see: since the impeachment, a known BLM guy has been arrested for his involvement in the Capitol fracas; so has the son of a Brooklyn judge, both of them Dems; and, separate news reports in print and broadcast include timelines that show things going wrong before Trump spoke.
The impeachment was personal, the opposition’s last act at piling on while also trying to send a message to the rest of us. Meantime, AOC is talking about a commission to “rein in” the media, whatever that means.
I wonder if this process will be used against those politicians who support BML and Antifa protests?
The Democrats will live to regret what they have done. They have taken their revenge on Trump (and that is what it is) but the method of doing so has opened themselves to the same treatment!
Thank you for writing thoughtful journalism. I thought it had been all but extinct. I watched Trump’s speech. Nothing but slick marketing that we haven’t seen before, but it did not incite violence. It was obvious that the attack was pre-planned. By whom, I don’t know, but they looked like caricatures from a movie. That Pelosi jumped on the impeach bandwagon while our state is disintegrating before my eyes demonstrates what a reprehensible figure she is. Weeks ago I saw AOC giving skin care tips. In disbelief, I thought, ‘what would Anne Richards and Barbara Jordan – heroes when I was a kid – think of this?” Good God. That AOC gives nonsense that her life was in danger is as believable as the Netflix documentary giving rise to her fame. The only good thing coming out of all this is hopefully we stop looking to Washington for moral guidance as there is none. We need to vote in responsible local officials. Fortunately in LA, Janice Hand and Kathryn Barger are finally getting the attention they deserve. These women, one democrat and one republican, remember whom they serve.
You make an interesting point when you say: “It was obvious that the attack was pre-planned. By whom, I don’t know …”. Trump’s call for the rioters to cease and go home looked pre-recorded – released during twilight hours but apparently filmed in full daylight. I agree with the author of this article that Trump’s words, taken out of context, were not incitement. But, given the context, I think he knowingly incited the mob violence that followed.
But, given the context, I think he knowingly incited the mob violence that followed.
How did he do that? I keep seeing that claim and it is no more than article of faith from people who either hate the man to start with or believe every word that comes from a media that also hates him. CNN and others are reporting that the incident looks to have been pre-planned, which is curious because CNN is among his staunchest haters. Yesterday, a BLM activist was arrested for his role in the fracas. You cannot say Trump’s words were taken out of context but blame him for the event anyway.
Absolutely not- most people at this rally had attended of trump rally’s which were all peaceful patriotic events. His speech was the same as his other speeches
Consider that Trump is not impeached. He will likely run in 2024, he won’t have a chance at the Republican nomination, so he will run as a third party candidate, guaranteeing a Democratic Presidential victory. For this reason, and several others, the Republican party stands to gain the most from a Trump impeachment.
Nancy Pelosi is not stupid. She knew she had to push impeachment through, but I suspect she knows there’s a very good chance it won’t come to a Senate trial. It’s so much better for the Democrats to have a bogeyman like Trump to drag out to energize their troops.
Like Eric Hoffer said in The True Believer (paraphrasing here) “You can have a mass movement without God, but you can’t have one without The Devil.”
‘Consider that Trump is not impeached. He will likely run in 2024, he won’t have a chance at the Republican nomination, so he will run as a third party candidate, guaranteeing a Democratic Presidential victory. For this reason, and several others, the Republican party stands to gain the most from a Trump impeachment.’
Spot-on. I’m amazed that the numerous Trump-impeachment cheerleaders can’t see this.
Totally confused – how does guaranteeing a Democratic victory mean that the Republican party stands to gain the most from a Trump impeachment?
That’s not the point. The Republicans stand to gain the most from a Trump impeachment because it could help them win next time. The argument is as follows:
If Trump is NOT impeached, he could run for President again. The Republican Party almost certainly could not accept him as their candidate at the next election; they would field an alternative candidate. However, given the size of his following, Trump might well stand again as an independent – and thus split the Republican vote.
With the right-wing vote split, the Democrats would almost certainly win.
If Trump IS impeached, he can’t run again, there is no risk of him splitting the Republican vote at the next election, and so the Republicans would have a vastly improved chance of winning.
> he won’t have a chance at the Republican nomination
that’s what everyone said in 2015.
The chance of Trump being anointed again by the Republican Party, after the damage he has already inflicted on it, is about the same as the chance of the Ancient Mariner scraping the dead albatross off the deck and draping it around his own neck.
Nancy Pelosi has not planned for the Trump Supporters(75 million votes) reaction to the House Motion. Stupid in my view, as it will solidify their resolve to back the next Republican Presidential Candidate supported by Trump.
I don’t think Trump will run again- he can do much more without the constraints of the out of control government
I was just watching an episode of ‘El Chapo’ on Netflix, the one where the President of Mexico office is stolen by vote buying, harvesting, and intimidation, and thus a pro-Narco party takes control from the one which was anti Cartel. From beginning to end, less the shooting parts, it could read as an allegorical dramatization of the recent election in USA. The Dems are obviously the party of ‘pro’, and instead of cartel it is the six horsemen, Bezos, Gates, Zuckerberg, Dorsey, and Google, and the MSM, the global monopolies/oligarchs families.
The end was encouraging though, after using the El Chapo forces to win the shady election – the new President decides Chapo has outlived his usefulness so sets out to capture and extradite him. I guess this is where the Squad had the 6 cancel Trump and his side, manipulate the algorithms, and bury the ‘wrong’ stories and shovel out the right stories, till victorious, then will turn on them, and break such a dangerous tool, less it later be used on themselves.
So, yes, the Democrats are proving themselves much more dangerous than Trump ever could have been, but also that they will likely be equally dangerous to friend and foe alike, the Swamp always being what it is, the scorpion cannot help being a scorpion.
Historically it was the Republican party that relied on the rich people and corporations. Plenty of billionaires (Adelson, Schwartzman, Griffin) have donated money to Trump.
He lost because more Americans hate him than adore him.
Just like he lost the popular vote in 2016 and the mid-terms in 2018. He also lost the 2 seats in Georgia for senate.
He had 12 million more votes than his first election. More than any sitting president. He lost because of corruption.
No, he lost because more people wanted him out.
He has lost 61 court cases
On Thursday, Fox News host Tucker Carlson lambasted Trump campaign lawyer Sidney Powell for claiming without evidence that glitches in electronic voting machines had improperly favored Biden. “She never demonstrated that a single actual vote was moved illegitimately by software from one candidate to another,” Carlson said. “Not one.”
In terms of factors that might affect an election, 2020 was not found wanting.
A fair minded and accurate article, for once. One of the people already arrested for the so-called Storming of the Capitol – which was really a Stroll Around the Capitol – is a far leftist. Or, essentially, a fifth columnist within the Trump supporters. And there were probably others like him.
Everybody should watch Jimmy Dore’s latest podcast with Chris Hedges to understand the true evil of the corporate Democrats.
How does the above fit your view that the election was stolen?
The evil democrats have pushed across the country for higher minimum wages and delivered (warts and all) Obamacare.
If i was working class (and I am not) I take that evil any day.
Especially since TrumpCare (Better, cheaper with more choice) is not coming anytime soon….
I know. Trump stole it in 2016, but the noble Dems never would do that.
That’s a “conspiracy theory”
Leave off of “Obamacare” it was and is a bait and switch scheme that has made insurance more expensive or unavailable to most…evil indeed-“every family will save $2000.00” a lie, “if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor” a lie.
Nothing stopped Trump and the republicans to deliver TrumpCare in 2016 or 2017 – where is it?
Which planet are you on? We all know McCain voted against it. We also know his wife supported Biden in the election.
You ‘re deluded.Trump delivered Wage rises for hispanics,Blacks,Blue Collar workers NOT pushing for it,he delivered …
I did last night before going to bed and it kept me awake all night. I have no idea how many are in Dore’s audience,but I suspect not as many as those who watch Don Lemon or Rachel Maddow.
Rioting, trashing businesses, theft, removing decent people from their homes, commandeering whole city blocks, etc. can now be done with impunity when the appropriate progressive agenda is invoked. Ideology speaks louder than actions which used to be criminal. The thugs who stormed the Capitol would have been well served if they had invoked Black Lives Matter which seems to have superceded Civilized Behavior Matters as the ultimate virtue.
I have engaged in exchanges with various Americans via youtube in the past couple of weeks as well as looking at a number of videos. I have come to the conclusion that the most prominent members of the Democratic party and their most vociferous supporters are seriously deranged, and I do not use the term lightly. Nancy Pelosi, AOC, Kamala and Joe himself do not live in the real world. The violence being acted out seems to be coming entirely from the ‘left’ (there is some evidence that there were people from Antifa and BLM involved in the Capitol events, though I am not saying that Republicans were not involved at all) and the Democrat leaders on record as inciting and supporting that violence are many.
Many Antifa and BLM rioters who were arrested were bailed, I am informed, using a fund set up by Harris and were later released without charges being pressed.
And yet the media show nothing of that and their supporters will openly tell you that they were peaceful demonstrations and nobody was hurt and get very angry when you show them evidence to the contrary – evidence easily available to them if they were to look.
The blind hypocrisy that I have seen during my attempts to engage with these people has left me breathless.
As a, more minor, example of the insanity, with all that is going on, all the problems facing the US, the Democrats have chosen to introduce a bill outlawing the use of gender specific language in the house, i.e. no use of words like, mother, daughter, son, father – this is what is occupying their minds at this juncture. And then, in a speech on the impeachment, Nancy Pelosi rode a coach and horses through her own bill, using a myriad of gendered terms in her first few sentences.
We are in for some seriously interesting times!
I have no doubt that there was a great deal of fraud in the recent presidential election, but it would only be marginal in its effect if there were not a vast reservoir of extreme stupidity in the USA.
How do you know any fraud ‘would only be marginal in its effect’ ? You have no way of knowing and nor does any one.
What I do know is that the Election was riddled with fraud and there needs to be a forensic audit. There are far too many coincidences for there not to have been some coordination in the fraud. The statistical data does not look plausible and requires a deep and independent investigation. But it seems that Biden is a usurper and Pelosi is a Traitor.
A strategic switch of fewer than 43,000 votes in 3 states would have changed the result.
Very little fraud would be needed to achieve that.
My point exactly.
It doesn’t take much to turn an intensely stupid minority (just) into a “majority”.
All the bed wetting that is going on from the Democrats suggests all is not what it seems. Reminds one of the Turkish attempted ‘Coup’ the other year – oh so ‘convenient’ and oh so incompetent when the one thing the Turkish Army is good at is a Coup. Similarly none of this smells right. As the FBI had monitored some of the chat on Facebook & Twitter (Parler were not involved apparently) one is bound to ask why the building was virtually undefended. The hag Pelosi likes to play games, but I would have thought it was stupid beyond belief to allow any sort of incursion of the building lest you give others a few ideas. A small group of well armed terrorists could easily have taken almost the entire House & Senate hostage and murdered the lot of ’em. For Pelosi et all their hate of Trump is such that they show they have sh*t for brains.
Not sure, but I think it was Theodore Roosevelt who said something like, ‘the rock of democracy founders when we come to see those who disagree with us simply as ‘the others’.
Despite the half-arsed, lame rhetoric coming thick and fast from Biden’s Democrats about healing and unifying the nation this impeachment can only have the effect of inflaming the already high passions of ‘the others’ many so clearly despise.
It’s not just plain stoopid, it’s bad politics quite frankly.
“The bozo rioters at the Capitol were undoubtedly inflamed by a barrage of lies and conspiratorial delusions that Trump churned out on an almost hourly basis since losing the election ” that’s beyond dispute.”…?
Is it?
State prosecutors are already processing the vote riggers with the first already convicted, and without exception, all were processing in favour of Biden. Thousands more under investigation.
Biden is effectively PINO. His time will be short and chaotic. Im sorry for him. The blame lies with Pelosi, Clinton, Obama et al..
The US is behaving like a banana Republic. I personally don’t blame Trump.
What vote riggers are you talking about?
Does he have a name, this convicted vote rigger?
I think you’re just making things up … like Trump.
Raquel Rodriguez
100%. Completely agree. One of the few sensible articles around at the moment that have examined the shenanigans on Capitol. The Democrats have shot themselves in both feet.
Intolerance , hate, social division, racism( the blatantly racial scapegoating of the fabricated left Critical Race Theory dogma), mob incitement of violent insurectionist revoloution all last year during the pandemic, systemic suppresion of dissent and human rights violation, forced political indocrination of children, students and workers, purging and destroying political rivals…the truthless hypocritical left progressive tyranny is verifiably guilty of everything they falsely accuse , and are the real vandal and threat to democracy, reported in every free democracy in the west they operate in.
Truth and justice will prevail over the truthless tyrannies in our world , but not before they inflict their damages and harms.
Humanity needs to recognize them in time, and liberate themselves from the marxist left progressive tyranny.
There’s something truly disgusting and Orwellian about it – that’s so infuriating, that it’s difficult to even put one’s finger on it – to know exactly, what to call it – and yet, it’s used as a CONSTANT, DELIBERATE TACTIC (even though – it also resembles psychological projection, and a psychosis). So – let me put it, this way…
Let’s say – that you cold-bloodedly plan, to murder someone – by firearm – only, you want to get away with it. So – what you do is – you preemptively, before they even thought that there was any hostility between you at all, in either direction – accuse THEM, of plotting to murder YOU – and, THEN, you shoot them – and before the murder has even been reported or investigated, start loudly claiming that it was in “self-defense”…
As Cardinal Pell said ; “Trump is a bit of a barbarian, but he’s our barbarian”.
Millions of Americans feel the same.
He was the last chance for the United States as it has been known.
.
…
Yes you have worked out that the globalists are Fascist (or if that term offends you totalitarians) who will use any pretext to be authoritarian. Well done, perhaps you and the rest of the left should have worked this out 25 years ago and our liberal democracies would not be totally illiberal and technocratic at this point. but then the left work for and want the revolution despite history showing that every single time it leads to death and destruction.
For A start A president cannot be impeached a 2nd time when leaving office
..secondly peolosi & her corrupt cohorts are Terrified trump will Spill the beans on Twitter,Youtube,Facebook anti-trust Laws violations…Pelosi Like Biden has dubious dealings ,how Can she have accumulated $150million + by being speaker ?..Trump should concentrate on Nailing Biden and other corrupt Democrats..
And, he’s going to. They can “Cancel” him – but they can’t actually literally VANISH him. I just have to suspect that, as short-sighted as they are – they probably haven’t even figured that out, yet.
(They can’t actually Cancel, around 50 percent of the voting population, either – and I doubt that recognition of that fact, has even strayed into their dim little totalitarian minds…)
Curious how the agenda preceded the riot. How many of the ‘insurrectionists’ came armed? Could the security around the building have done better? If the answers are ‘none or few’ and ‘yes’, then the event may have been allowed to take place. The purpose was obvious. To stop Trump from running in 2024. After 9/11 no one who had been ‘asleep on duty’ was subsequently punished. Time will tell whether it is the same in this case.
If saying “peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard” is a crime – then having nasal hair is a crime.
Donald John Trump is constantly the subject of disinformation and smear campaigns – for example after the confrontation in Virginia in 2017 over the removal of the statue of General Lee the VERY FIRST WORDS that President Trump said were to condemn neo Nazis who tried to hijack the conflict (who are, after all, a threat to his Jewish daughter – the Trump family has always been very close to the Jewish community of New York City, even as far back as the 1950s and 1960s), having condemned the neo Nazis, President Trump then said (quite correctly) that there were good people on both sides of the conflict over the statue. The media EDITED OUT the condemnation of neo Nazis and pretended that President Trump was saying they were “good people”. The media do this all the time – they lie and smear constantly and even some people on this comment thread believe the lies and smears of the media against Donald John Trump.
As for January 6th – it is now clear that Antifa Marxist activists (supporters of Biden/Harris) manipulated events (and manipulated some people) and created the riot. But this will not be reported in the “mainstream media” which will continue to lie and smear. There was a lot of, quite justified, anger over the massive Election Rigging in November (what happened in States such as Pennsylvania was farcical in the crudeness and extent of the election fraud), but the anger was manipulated and pushed in a violent direction NOT by President Trump – but by professional leftist (yes leftist) activists planted in the crowds, some of these people have already been arrested – so it is not a “Conspiracy Theory”.
You are right that Trump has been smeared repeatedly by the media using quotes out of context. And the behavior of the Democrats has been appalling. However, antifa did not create the riot. It was created by the hundreds, maybe thousands, of the most extreme of Trump’s supporters who breached the police lines and stormed the Capitol. Indeed there were a few antifa types – wannabe revolutionaries and riot groupies – in the crowd and they may have helped whip up the crowd. But not very many. The names and backgrounds of those who stormed the Capitol are coming out and most are hyperactive Trump supporters, including police, teachers, local administrators, and others.
An important point is that the breach of the police lines was initiated DURING Trump’s speech. So Trump could hardly be rationally accused of inciting the riot, since cause precedes effect. Nevertheless the Dems are making hay with the help of the sycophantic media. Sad, yes, but also evil and dangerous.
Yes, there was so much election rigging in November that 63 complaints came before courts and 62 were dismissed or abndoned by the lying plaintiffs.
Nasal and ear hair are as pleasant to see as a dog pupping. You never want to see those things, but, eh, s happens!
The real Crime, was winning the 2016 election, in the first place. St. Hillary Clinton, had already been Appointed.
He didn’t win it. It was a fraud.
Really? Well, win by fraud, loose by fraud, such is the USA today!
Sadly the USA is looking more like a Banana Republic every day.
‘You’ used to say ” In God we trust.”
Not anymore it seems, and God has moved on to a less ambitious project, saving the Irish Republic from itself.
I was being sarcastic. Apparently it’s only fraud when Trump loses. When he wins it’s a completely legitimate outcome. The fact that tens of millions of people can make this claim with a straight face is quite something.
There was no mail-in balloting in 2016. Real people, actually living in the present, actually voted. The only problem, is that in Fantasyland – you had already Coronated, your Queen – Successor, to America’s First Black Pharaoh. So it couldn’t possibly have been real.
(Even though, in Real World Land {which – some people still at least visit, from time to time} – in most respects, Trump is pretty much just like any ordinary Republican President {except – a bit better – and I guess that’s what makes it, all the worse}.)
Trump is pretty much just like any ordinary Republican President {except – a bit better –
Yes, he has certainly been a raving success, apart from starting a civil war (but no one is perfect).
And don’t insult the Queen, ever.
Trump started the “civil war”? Who attempted to negate the election, before it was finished – and has been living in denial of its reality constantly, for the entire four years since? Who called, during the election season, itself – repeatedly, in any number of public performances before, mostly, wealthy Northeastern “liberal” audiences – an entire half, at least, of the U.S. citizenry, a newly-coined noun – “Deplorables”? Was that, Donald Trump?
And – which “Queen”, exactly, do you mean?
(And – you’ll, or else, what?)
Did Trump start the war? Looks to me like the democrats did with efforts to impeach him before he ever took office. You can’t wipe out the last four years.
The Queen isn’t sacrosanct in the US regardless of what her subjects would like to see. In any case, “Queen” in this case refers to herself, Hillary Rodham Clinton. And it’s not meant as a compliment.
“Coronated”?
Don’t you mean Crowned?
Incidentally Emperor might fit better than Pharaoh don’t you think?
The Senile Emperor biden &Empress Harris have ”No Clothes” globalists bilge….
Yes indeed, wonderful word ‘bilge’ by the way!
Good point. The Clinton canal started the whole fraud pretense with the phony Russian collusion stunt. I guess it’s only fraud when Trump wins.
Remind me again how many homes, businesses and livelihoods were burned to the ground last summer please. This episode was a walk in the park FGS, had Trump retained power then America certainly would have burned; hundreds of deaths, total mayhem would have ensued.
Trump is the President of USA. The man has been lying for the last 4 years about stole elections (2016 and 2020). He is not the mayor or Portland or a woke social activist.
It shouldn’t be hard for (even?) you to see the difference!
And yet…
“There are none so blind as those who will not see, and none so deaf as those who will not hear”
He is best blocked.
Haha…free speech except for those we want to block
Fair enough if you want to, but then don’t comment about free speech.
How am I interfering with his right to free speech – Exactly?
He is at liberty to post here and those, like you, who want to read his fatuous contributions are at liberty to do so – I can’t stop you and wouldn’t even if I could.
I merely advised that other contributors might find this forum more interesting when he is blocked from view. There are days when every other comments is from this hyperactive teenager.
Block Him!
Ah yes, that well known cry of the Free Speech supporter.
Or do you still not see?
“Or do you still not see?”
No I don’t
Because I cannot force you, or anyone else, to block him.
Do you still not see?
Did I trigger you?
It is you that clearly are triggered whenever TRUMP! comes into a discussion.
Sorry Nigel there is no “and yet”.
If it was destructive (and it was) to riot for Lloyd George it is much much worst for the President of USA to spread lies/conspiracies and turn on a mob against the institutions of USA.
We (as I speak as an American) expect more from elected officials – especially from the President of USA.
Except the president did not do what you claim. The New York Times has a nice timeline of the event, showing the perimeter was breeched before Trump spoke. CNN has a piece on how this looks to have been coordinated ahead of time. Unlike past accusations against Trump, the bandwagon cannot use ignorance here. The left’s own media sources are reporting things that do not support the ‘blame Orange McBadman’ theory.
You still won’t see…
The riots were an attempt to goad Trump in to some sort of armed reaction, it didn’t occur, but they kept on and on and on…, read some of the comments below and above from the people who live in Portland. Ask them if they think a few hundred unarmed people breaking in to the Capitol disturbed them as much as weeks of rioting, looting, burning, theft and murder.
If you want more from your elected officials…then elect some with backbones…but you won’t.
The more fundamental problem with the incitement charge is Trump’s words in his speech: “I know everyone will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”
Well that’s OBVIOUSLY, a call for Revolution!
(Which is only a good thing, if liberals and/or left-wing radicals do it.)
Interesting to see that the Pelosi creature is flanked by the ‘Fasces’ in the caption photo.
How apposite in view of her deplorable conduct.
I’m glad that you caught that! I didn’t notice it, at first – really great choice of photograph. I had no idea those things were up there, in the House chamber – how many people do?
In ancient times, this was a neutral, or positive, symbol of state authority – of course.
Please accept my apologies for bollocking you about the C-19 nonsense.
I was, to use the vernacular, a ‘bit pissed’ to note your satire. Anyway jolly well done, I think we ‘sing from the same hymn sheet’?
I think you’re thinking about someone else – I haven’t written anything about covid-19…
I was referring to your reply to the arrant nonsense of NS Stanley MBE.
I don’t remember that one. Let me look for it…
Oh, right – I found it…
Isn’t it nuts – that you so constantly see so many purportedly sane, purportedly balanced – prominent, people – carrying on, as if they thought that President Trump, himself, had brewed the disease up in a laboratory – or that he had some kind of magical power to just stop it – if he just wanted to?
In, the superstitious Middle Ages – it was believed that kings could sometimes cure diseases, simply by laying their hands on afflicted persons – and in fact, there were whole traditions around that – there was one day out of the year when people afflicted with certain diseases before the King, and ask to be magically cured of them. I guess – something or another like that must be what Anderson Cooper, and whoever else, all seem to have in mind… The President is either, an Evil Sorcerer, who created the disease in the first place – or he’s an uncaring tyrant, who withholds the magical cure that he could otherwise bestow on the entire nation – if he only, just “cared” to do so…
Noam Chomksy’s book Manufacturing Dissent is a real eye opener. Written decades ago, it unfolds what we are experiencing today. Strip away references to foreign countries and insert the US and you will understand what we are experiencing. If it is Karma so be it. That would make it much more logical than the bs handed out by the media since the pandemic started.
Add Naomi Klein’s Shock Doctrine to the list.
Chomsky’s book was ‘Manufacturing Consent’. ‘Manufacturing Dissent’ was a documentary panning Michael Moore, which riffed on Chomsky’s title.
Correct, and Chomsky’s co-author was Edward Herman. Credit where credit is due.
This man has just been federally indicted for his involvement in the riot. Jayden X is hardly a Trump supporter: https://www.rollingstone.co…
Mmh. Reichstag fire, anyone?
Reichstag fire
Thank you, Michael. A well-stated and interesting analogy. This is one of only a very few articles that have challenged the pitchfork bearing hordes that seek to stifle debate.
United States of America is in reality three regions or blocks of States. The Regions are:
1 – East Coast is liberal and radical.
2 – West Coast is liberal and debt laden.
3 – Central States are very conservative.
1+2 believe CNN, NY Times; Washington Post;
3 believes Fox News.
Will the 3 regions agree on the future?
No chance IMHO.
The same NY Post whose story about Hunter, the laptop, and China was silenced by the East Coast media? Maybe you meant the NY Times.
Thanks. I meant both NY Times and Washington Post but misnamed them.
Not quite. Florida is an east coast state, a very populated one and it isn’t radical and not really liberal. North and South Carolina aren’t liberal or radical. New England has become increasingly liberal and radical but not the east coast.
Central states include Illinois which no one would call conservative. Minnesota isn’t conservative either. Michigan either. Illinois is one of the most debt laden states in the country but it’s not west coast.
You’re correct that the west coast is liberal and debt laden. Radical too.
California may be “liberal”, but to call it “debt laden” relative to other states is rather misleading.
As recently reported by Forbes, the states with the most net debt in 2020 in fact are, starting with most debt:
1. Illinois
2. New Jersey
3. Connecticut
4. Massachusetts
5. New York
6. Delaware
7. Maryland
8. Kentucky
9. California
10. Hawaii
11. Rhode Island
12. Vermont
13. Pennsylvania
Washington State and Oregon are well down the list. A “debt laden” West Coast it is not.
That’s net debt, not total debt. Be careful with statistics.
From the World Atlas…..
California is the most indebted state with an outstanding debt of $152.80 billion during the 2019 fiscal year. New York comes second with an outstanding debt of $139.20 billion.
Precisely, it is net debt because that gives the more accurate financial picture!
As any investor or economist or accountant will tell you, what matters is total liabilities to total assets, ie net debt/debt ratio.
And yet California has the most debt of any state.
I think you’re missing the point about net and gross, and the debt ratio.
The US has more debt in absolute terms than the UK or any EU country. But that’s hardly an indicator of their relative economic strength.
Perhaps you should go back and review my original statement. There’s not a thing about it that was untrue.
Yep, Illinois is very liberal and very deep in debt indeed.
Listening to Arnie talk about Kristallnacht in his think Austrian accent gave me cognitive dissonance. But then I remembered that he is an actor and concluded that he was merely rehearsing for the crass B movie that is his life. Please Kristallnacht!?! Why are Americans so puffed up? Is it because they all think they are in a film? After Ragan, Arnie and Trump I recon Jonny Depp, being a self declared southern gentleman could bring that country together. I am guessing there will be 20 Timothy McVeighs created by this twisted over reaction.
He has been living in California too long.
Am I alone in fearing an extreme false flag operation during the inauguration? I do not want to be accused of inciting violence, but if I were leading the (underground) left, I would be planning something pretty spectacular to attempt to drive another nail into the Republican coffin.
Not with all of those troops – security checkpoints, etc. – there.
Perhaps a mortar (81mm) from three miles out, with a well positioned ‘spotter’ (FOO) a bit closer?
Probably a little bit unlikely – wouldn’t you think? You can’t exactly pick up military hardware, at a gun show.
Well plan B might involve the use of an aeroplane, “Kamikaze style”. The airport at DC is very close to Capitol as I recall.
I would also be astonished if some “collectors” were not in possession of an 81mm.
I gather over a million were produced.
According to the UK FT, thus far, a situation echoed to a not dissimilar degree across other US state capitals, there are 25k troops approved for deployment by the Pentagon on the streets of Washington for the ‘scaled down’ inauguration, many downtown busineses in the immediate area are boarded up and Mr Biden intends to stress the importance of unity in his inaugural address as House Speaker Ms Pelosi apparently sits on the fateful legislation, legislation intended to impeach the man who 74m Americans recently voted for and is yet clearly intended to stop him forever running for high office ever again, on the grounds that its introduction might slow up the swearing in of the Democrats’ own officials.
Yep, looks like the good ship USS Democracy is well on course to me.
Aye, for the rocks. She’ll sink with the loss of all hands.
Yes, and here’s the thing – they should have been arrested also.
Now that things are for once, just for freaking once going against the savages, they keep trying to scare me with, “but don’t you realise that cracking down on uncivilised behaviour will affect your side too?!” And my answer to that is, yes, I jolly well hope so! Do you know how many left-wingers should be kicked off social media for spewing hatred and bigotry? Do you know how many left-wing goons should be thrown in jail for acting like shit-flinging monkeys? Of course you know, you obsess about them constantly! Why is it so surprising for you that I despise them also?
People are complaining that 2021 is starting badly, but I think it’s showing great promise so far. For the first time in years, we are seeing people facing actual consequences for acting like subhuman pieces of filth. Perhaps civilisation hasn’t quite given up the ghost yet.
Do you know how many left-wingers should be kicked off social media for spewing hatred and bigotry?
And yet, few if any are being kicked off. The silencing tilts in one direction, with a private business doing the bidding of govt. Free speech is not just a legal principle; it’s a broadly held social value and if it is not treated as such, then it becomes meaningless. Team Biden has hired numerous big tech people. That’s not happenstance.
That deserves my +10 upvote of the day.
There were those there who did act like subhuman filth. But most of them remind me more of a Children’s Crusade. (A surprising number seem to have actually come there with their Moms.)
What a toerag you show yourself to be.
You agree that leftists should be given the same treatment for the same type of “offences”, but once this virtue-signal of your equanimity is out the system, you return to the usual liberal smearing and sneering of those “on the other side”. You know full well people on the left are completely safe from the censoring happening to conservatives. Big tech is massively left-wing.
Why are “liberals “a) so intolerant of free speech b) so quick to label massive numbers of people “savages” / “deplorables” etc. Aren’t you supposed to be the tolerant and caring ones?
Where do you get your cockeyed moral superiority from, and please do come down off your wretched high horse before someone has to pull you down.
I’m really looking forward to the articles in UnHerd next week examining the declassification and release of all the Russiagate files. It will be particularly interesting to hear about British interference in an American election during the time of a Conservative government. The article by Harvey Schlanger of the Schiller Institute should be particularly interesting.
Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a single mainstream neutral, site with real investigative journalism, prepared to take the long view of history. Thank God for UK Column News.
Watching some independent US news aggregators it would appear a lot of the real damage done at the capitol wasn’t done by Trump supporters, in the main they simply treated it as a grand day out taking selfies walking inside the velvet roped visitor walkways, but by Antifa members/associates dressed in MAGA/Trump gear. The Police officer who died was reportedly hit from behind with a fire extinguisher, typical of Antifa associate attacks on others, Trump supporters also seem to support law and order especially the Police. Was the rally infiltrated by Agent Provocateurs (Antifa or ‘state’ actors) with the intent of gifting an opportunity to further smear Trump and his supporters and prevent him ever standing again, something the Democrats truly fear, I doubt we’ll ever really know.
The trial should be a lot of fun.
Evidently she will be publicly working through this “trauma” on Instagram.
Indeed. Poor lickle Alexandria Occasional-Cortex. Chief Cretin-in-Woke.
Those that disagree with what was admittedly a rushed impeachment need to state what alternative measures should have been, or should still be, applied against an incumbent president who thought he could find a way to stay in power despite defeat at the polls. Trump had it planned in advance. He told his supporters not to vote early, with the full intention of decrying the validity of postal votes after the event. He was ready with his excuses on election night, claiming speciously that because he was ahead at 10pm he had to be the winner. His legal team was primed and ready to go. And the stolen election legend led inexorably to the results seen on 6 Jan, a day of infamy that shames the United States. Your ability to condemn election malpractice around the world is tarnished and weakened – I hope not irreparably. My American friends here need to realise that no matter what their view is of Pelosi, Biden or the Democrat agenda, this main issue should not be forgotten. The President has brought his country, as well as his party, into disrepute, and there are no shortage of accomplices that tried to help him succeed.
Complete and utter twaddle. And don’t clutch your pearls so hard: you’ll break the string or choke yourself.
Don’t prosecute the mafia boss, because if you do so, the mafia will come after you. Can we stop this stupid kind of reasoning?
trump himself said the other day that they ve been after him since day one and he s right.pelosi is a first class b***h who is finally getting her wish.if i were the american people i wouldn t be too happy having people like her running things.
Cynical rubbish
A good example of an article that started with a fixed opinion and then tried to bolster it with feeble arguments, the sort that are all too common on all points of the political spectrum now. Try thinking for a change. It’s had, but worth it.
See the hangman’s noose outside the Whitehouse? The press gleefully filming…
The correct response to this is to relegate Trump to the joke and irrelevance he is post Jan 20. What is being done will achieve the exact opposite.
Agreed, but whatever your personal opinion of Trump might be, this particular ‘joke and irrelevance’ managed to garner 74m American votes, I’m afraid, and this politically motivated, vengeful impeachment is potentially an affront to many of them, let alone self-serving recklessness in the extreme.
I agree with you that what Pelosi is doing will only keep the focus on Trump. I almost feel sorry for Biden because he won’t be able to compete for the public’s attention. He doesn’t sell papers or media either. Plus this will go all the way to SCOTUS so it’s going to take awhile. I’d say a year or more if SCOTUS agrees to hear an expedited case on whether you can convict a private citizen.
Pelosi’s hifalutin’ BS about Trump posing a “clear and present danger” to the country, and therefore had to be removed immediately is nonsense, given that there is no way this “impeachment” was ever going to result in the president’s removal before his term in office ended, and of course she knew that. It was purely symbolic, and purely spiteful and yet another waste of time of the House of Representatives, which surely had more important things to do. Two impeachments, neither of which had a hope in hell of resulting in the removal of the president, have politicized the process of impeachment (already begun by the vain and useless Republican impeachment of Clinton in 1998) to the point where it’s lost whatever symbolism it had during the Nixon era. In short, these two spiteful impeachments will look worse on the Democrats than it will on Trump. With 7 days to go in his term, a well-deserved censure would have been enough.
“Britain genuinely leads the world at sequencing the viral genome. Something like 60% of all Covid genetic sequencing worldwide was carried out in the UK.”
I can see that if case numbers are small, then genetic sequencing can play a part in the tracking and tracing, and help this work better. But once the virus is everywhere, how does it help?
Viruses mutate all the time and the reason behind sequencing a coronavirus ilike covid is that it can effectively become a new virus with each mutation, potentially rendering it more infectious, more deadly and less likely to be affected by existing treatments and recently developed vaccines.
‘Know your enemy’ type thang.
The danger is never the actual event; it is always the ends to which the event’s interpretation will be used; indeed, it is the interpretation itself of that very same event. In this instance, the media, the Democrat Party, Academia and the Chatting Class have given America its Reichstag Moment and the Brownshirts of Silicon Valley and the Bureaucracy will run with it and impose restrictions on speech, movement and if possible, thought, just as was done in 1933. Mr. Trump, through his unfiltered narcissism- and uncontrollable mouth has inflicted grievous harm upon the very people he purported to represent. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves.
You got it in one. You can see this developing if you watch carefully. For example President Trump had only just begun to speak when trouble began at the Capitol – it takes 15 minutes to walk between the two locations. And, knowing that there was due to be a large demonstration, why was the Capitol so lightly defended ? This all smells wrong. The more you study this the more it seems that Biden has his Reichstag moment. And now for the Enabling Act.
The militant Democrat Party, the partisan mainstream media and the blatant censorship of the BigTech is a deeply troubling mixture and will result in Fascism, for that is how it starts. The irregularities in the General Election were many and various, and I can clearly see there will never be another free and fair election held again – just as there wasn’t in Germany in the 30s.
My lefty friends use to rage at the ‘industrial/military complex’ – the deep state – but curiously they are silent on the topic these days. But the Deep State was taken by surprise by Trumps election in 2016 (as they were with Brexit) and have spent 4 years seeking to control him and destroy him (ditto Brexit). In 2020 they made sure he lost. While many on here cheer wildly, they ought to remember that the end never justifies the means. The wheel always turns and while it is conservatives being persecuted now the day will dawn when there are none left and the self righteous Fascist Left will come for you.
I think you’re wrong. Yes, there’s tons of double standard – and I don’t blame anyone for being mad about it, BUT Trump=Chaos. He’s always been a sh-t-stirrer and will continue to be. He lost Georgia – almost on purpose, and is just too dangerous. Has to be dumped.
Psychopaths never never stop. Germans let Hitler off the hook after the Putsch. And then…
Phew!
Reassuring words.
My worries about the imminent demise of Godwin’s Law on the internet were clearly unfounded.
Many laws of physics can be restated, in more than one way… As an alternative formulation – “generally speaking, everybody you don’t like is Hitler – unless otherwise notified…”
I do not wish to be accused of inciting violence but does anyone else fear an extreme false flag operation during the inauguration? If I were running the left’s operations, I would be planning something fairly spectacular in the hope of driving another nail into the Republican coffin.
Now would also be a good time to put money on Biden not completing aterm.
An Unherd piece, defending Trump from consequences. What a shocker!
The point implied by the name, I think – is not thinking, with a herd-like mentality.
“Consequences” of what, exactly?
A person with Trump Derangement Syndrome not appreciating the nuances of vital issues in a dangerously polarised time, perhaps?
Proceedings for Nixon’s impeachment included reference to his making “false and misleading public statements,” which were “contrary to his trust as president and subversive of constitutional government.”
Debate all you want on the definition of “incitement”, his “barrage of lies and conspiratorial delusions” clearly and obviously are grounds for impeachment, especially given what transpired.
Please show where his speech included a call to violence. Because the comments of numerous Dems, to include the House Speaker and incoming VP, are documented in their support of the summer of mayhem. Kamala was even pushing a bail fund for any protesters who were arrested.
Please show where I said that he did.
I said his actions are grounds for impeachment. But you carry on with your “what-about-the-democrats” narrative.
this rather strongly seeks to establish a causal link: his “barrage of lies and conspiratorial delusions” clearly and obviously are grounds for impeachment, especially given what transpired.
It’s not whataboutism to point out obvious hypocrisy.
Yes, I believe there is a causal link between his words and the actions of those that stormed the capitol. So does the writer of the article we are both commenting on. I don’t need to point to him calling for violence for that to be true.
I am saying his rhetoric and his consistent, flagrant and delusional lies that he has been pushing on his supporters since before even a single vote was cast is enough to impeach him. And there is precedent for that.
Strike out the “especially given what transpired” part of my argument if you want, the point still stands. But this stuff doesn’t occur in a vacuum, as the President well knows.
then you will have no problem showing which words in the speech caused the incident. Of course, you’ll have to ignore the timeline showing where the perimeter was breached before he spoke. Or the evidence of this having been a planned event.
What an absurd hill to die on, that rhetoric has to very clearly and deliberately be phrased in a way to cause someone to act in any way.
You’re still dodging my main point about impeachment.
The last impeachment stemmed from a second-hand whistleblower, so your point made be getting lost in that. That the effort was led by people who have accused their opponents of racism, white supremacy, and being nazis only underscores the foolishness of the campaign. And knowing there is no two-thirds majority to be had in the Senate for conviction exposes the plan’s cynicism.
So, again, nothing that actually refutes that this impeachment was valid or appropriate. Whether or not this impeachment will lead to his removal from office – whilst clearly sought after – is immaterial.
You have offered nothing to substantiate it beyond repeating what you’ve been told about his speech. Never mind that the problem was unfolding even before he spoke, or stories suggesting this was planned well in advance by someone, or yesterday’s arrest of a known BLM agitator. What happens in the Senate is very much material; that’s the whole point, silly as the point is since even Nancy has to know the two-thirds majority needed for conviction won’t happen.
Read the first comment I made that you engaged with.
Of course what happens in the senate matters. I’m saying whether or not he is convicted has no bearing on whether or not his actions merit impeachment.
In US constitution, You cannot Impeach someone who has left office..
False and misleading statements are the apparent domain of politicians. Nixon was charged with statements related to an underlying criminal act. The distinction matters in context. Trying to muddy the Trump impeachment with Nixon’s is an argument too far. At least there was a hearing for Nixon, none so for Trump as evidence builds that would question the rush. Waiting a week, rushing to judgement to remove someone because of “immediate danger” that the Senate refused to agree on the immediacy. Politics of destruction to end a personal vendetta of one party.
It’s interesting to read the number of delusional voices BTL who still believe the election was somehow stolen. Because that’s the real context here. Not institutional overreach (though that’s probably true), nor corporate ‘censorship’ (as though anyone has a ‘right’ to a Twitter account or a place on Amazon’s servers), but downright collective phantasy and group-based, cognitive dissonance.
In functioning democracies political parties have the power to self-correct. To fix themselves. They shift to where the votes are. Even Labour has managed it a couple of times, despite the best efforts of their leftist wreckers (AOC would fit in nicely).
But when the group narrative is a fiction, a big lie, those self-correcting mechanisms break. The echo chambers of the internet and the draw of conspiracy theories to the poorly educated and weak-minded have brought us here.
It needs to be fought. What alternatives are there? I don’t read any above the line here.
That’s why Trump needed to be impeached. That’s why the Capitol interlopers need to be prosecuted. That’s why platforms that spread lies and hate need to be challenged and, if necessary, marginalised. The auto-immune system of the body politic must dispel delusion. Or it risks being overrun.
Trump might be restrained via-Ã -vis pardons etc., by the fact that the impeachment trial will be looming over him after he has left office.
Ahaha, so the real danger is AOC and not Trump and the fascists?
Given the irrational hatred that she inspires in the vast majority of Anglo-Saxon white men, as proven once again by this article and its comments, no wonder AOC feared for her life during the assault on Capitol!
They are each as “out there” as the other. I recommend a Harry Hill style fight!
There is nothing irrational about fearing the fascist far left.
Come off it, she is just another wretched
“attention seeker”.
The only threat to her life would have been from that panicky policeman who shot Ms Babbitt.
We must all grow up very quickly and cease recklessly throwing around words like “fascist” and “Nazi”, especially when one of the most fascist of all present movements is so-called Antifa, or “Anti-fascists”. We are disempowering these once very powerful words, and thus making meaningful discussion impossible.
We must all grow up very quickly and cease recklessly throwing around words like “fascist” and “N*z*”, especially when one of the most fascist of all present movements is so-called Antifa, or “Anti-fascists”. We are disempowering these once very powerful words, and thus making meaningful discussion impossible.
That’s VERY DANGEROUS RHETORIC. In fact – it might be classified as legally prohibited Hate Speech, before very long. What are you trying to do – abolish present-day “liberalism”, or the Dimocratic Party?
Yes – the real danger is actually, literally – in the real world – the political party, who still in some truly bizarre irony of history, call themselves the “Democrats” (but they’re getting one of the vowels wrong – more accurately, that should be an “i” instead of an “e”). And its two Paramilitary Wings.
It’s hardly just men or white people who hate her.
What the commentator, “C M”, means (like all other “identitards”, of course), is that all human beings are really actually robots – manufactured, according to a limited number of exactly identical specifications. Each particular unit of whatever specific model, all run exactly the same software – so, if one robot of Model x, hates a robot of Model y – we can be pretty certain that all the other robots of Model x do, also – and that this is entirely something having to do with their make, model, and factory-installed software.
(Also, I’m just wondering – are all white people “Anglo-Saxons”, now? Only about 8% of the U.S. population in surveys, designates itself as being of English descent – and Donald Trump, for instance, isn’t one of them. How does the unit that designates itself as “C M”, know? Does it have all of the design specs?)
There’s an odd twisting of race and nationality that some here have indicated they believe appropriate. One poster averred that all Spaniards are considered white in the UK. Which must be very odd if you’re a black Spaniard. English descent would include lots of influences in addition to Anglo-Saxon, for example Normans even Vikings, Picts, etc they all blended in along with Roman influences so English is sort of a hodgepodge. And then of course you have black English people and Asian English and middle eastern English.
I completely agree. On the other hand – “Anglo-Saxon” is usually used, as synonym for English – even though that’s not at all historically accurate. The words, “England” and “English” after all, come from the word “Angle”. In reality, of course – Angles and Saxons became predominant in Southern Scotland, as early as they did in England… And, you could go on and on…
In reality, of course – there are in the present day, no Angles, Saxons, or Jutes – but the word “Anglo-Saxon” is often just used as a synonym for “English” {ethnically, speaking} – I guess, just because those particular ethnic groups of ancient or early-medieval times left a lasting cultural and social influence – even though they were far from being the first, and far from being the last, to do so…
(And, then, of course – as you point out – there’s “English”, as in – citizens of the UK, who live in England – which which is an entirely different, though equally important matter…)
The comment, though, is about U.S. politics. And I feel pretty certain that the attempt to use “Anglo-Saxon”, as a slur – is really meant to imply, all white people (as if, they were all, the same, boring, stiff – and, prejudiced – thing – and it can all be blamed, on the British historical roots of America). If the commentator had written, “Anglophone” – that might be one thing… All non-Hispanic American whites, are often referred to as “Anglos” – by, some Hispanics… It’s obviously, absurd – but a big deal is made, of whether one has a Spanish-derived last name, or not (entirely regardless, of whether one speaks Spanish or not – and I would guess that probably a majority of Hispanics in the U.S., certainly quite an enormous number of them, do not).
There are some real quandaries around this, in the U.S. – they’re not really acute, or painful ones – but they kind of stand out, for their illogic. “Hispanic” is treated, as if it were an “ethnic group” – whereas it is not more practically speaking, actually any one ethnic group (the same, of course, could be said for “white”). Various kinds of forms make a distinction between “non-Hispanic white” – “Hispanic white” – “non-white Hispanic” – and categories, such as those… What it really ultimately just comes down to (the category, “Hispanic”) – is just, whether one has a Spanish-derived last name, or not. But – many people do make a conflation, between “Hispanic” and “non-white”…
(To me – AOC, or the “Occasional Cortex”, as some have humorously called her – looks, pretty much “white” – in exactly the same sense that most people from Spain, are “white”. But, in a sense, I guess – who really cares?)
(Actually, I have to correct myself. I think, if I’m not mistaken {but it’s been a long time since I’ve been there} – that members of ethnic minorities who are citizens of the UK, and live in England – generally speaking, refer to themselves and are referred to, as “British” – but, not – as “English”??)
Spot on. There is a huge difference between English and British, which I am certain you are aware of.
A great deal of the conflation, no doubt – comes from the fact that quite a lot of U.S. Hispanics, in terms of the “racial appearance” – would appear to be “racially”, “mestizo”. “Mestizo” is the word that’s actually used, in most Latin American countries – certainly, not all of whose inhabitants are “mestizo” (some, are Spanish, and white – others, are Spanish-speaking – but ethnically, “American Indian” – or “indio”).
There isn’t really, an enormous difference. There’s essentially no difference, culturally – between “mestizo” {although the word is never used, in the U.S.}, and white, Hispanics. The difference in “racial appearance” sort of occurs, along a spectrum. Even the native inhabitants of Spain are at least slightly darker-complected, on average, than the native inhabitants of Northern Europe are – and that’s probably the only basis, on which the Occasional Cortex calls herself a “Person of Color” (or the only real justification, for it).
Simply, whether you have a Spanish last name, or not – is perceived (if you do have a Spanish last name), as constituting an “ethnic group”. In reality, of course – it makes a big difference, whether you are of for instance, Puerto Rican – Mexican – or whatever else, descent… Those are actually, different cultures {in addition – most Mexicans or people of Mexican descent, are “mestizo” {which only describes, an appearance} – whereas, almost no Puerto Ricans, for instance – are}. It makes an enormous difference – whether, you are of Mexican for instance, descent – but your family has lived here for generations {some, but generally few of whom, speak Spanish – unless it’s only to a slight degree, as a second-language} – or, whether you are a first-generation immigrant – or, whether you just sneaked across the border yesterday, illegally – and, the latter category of people are looked down upon and not regarded as legitimate, by quite a lot of Hispanics – just as they are looked down upon and not regarded as legitimate, by quite a lot of people of whatever other backgrounds – differing quite a lot, though, in regard to those attitudes, from state to state…
And – speaking of IdPol, in general (all of it – because by this point, I’m ever so slightly sick of it) –
Identitard Politics
(with sincere apologies, to Langston Hughes {“Harlem”})
What happens to a politics, absurd?
Does it cry its woketard tears up forever,
without a reason under the sun?
Or fester like a totalitarian bore –
And yet keep having fun?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or keep selling itself well (and lucratively), by crusting and sugaring over –
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just keeps bragging
that it’s Tom Joad.
Or does it implode?
Trump is more dangerous than Impeachment
Institutionally supported by the Republican party across the country!
Institutionally supported by the Republican party across the country!
Not really. Across the country, Repubs condemned the violence. Many also noticed how the suddenly pearl-clutching left was silent during a summer of mayhem that included arson, billions in damage, and a couple of dozen murders.
Most definitely disputable- pretty bold to say your opinion is beyond dispute
I am quoting the article. DId you read it?
It’s a scary thought, but I suspect the attempt to impeach trump is not just political. Perhaps there is a genuine concern he may attempt to order the military to keep himself in power. Presumably he remains in charge of the military until he steps down. Can the military refuse to follow his orders?
When Trump suggested reducing troop numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan, General Milley, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that the US military would follow its own assessment of troop requirements, ie ignore the President’s instructions. Together with the arms industry, the US military wanted Trump gone and to have Biden back in the White House where he and Obama had started 5 new wars.
Why would the military want Trump gone? Didn’t he increase the military budget to the highest on record?
Because he is anti-war.
Anti war but pro mob violence? Interesting (not really)
If he had ever said anything pro mob violence, you’d have a point. But since we have him on record so often being against it, not so much.
Yes, he is against it once it’s happened. What a guy
Wish the democrats were also against it.
Indeed. The Left are as bad as the Right. The centre needs to take back control..
You’re equating left and right with democrats and republicans. They are not the same. Democrats are far more likely to be pro mob violence. Vocally. You’re also overlooking libertarians. The “centre” is not a party in the US. It does not equate to the UK.
True. However, they will get as much money or more under Biden. Remember under Obama/Biden 5 new wars were started in the Middle East and at one point literally ran out of bombs, see the report from the reliable source CNN below (LOL):
https://edition.cnn.com/201…
You really are clutching at straws if you are trying to sell Trump as a ‘man of peace’.
Trump was treated appallingly by the MSM, but he gave as good as he got. However he did not come out of nowhere. Even his friends conceded he is an egomaniac totally unsuited to the office of President. He would start a war at the drop of a hat if he thought he could hold to the Presidency.
I never said Trump was a ‘man of peace’. All I pointed out was that his political opponents removed the power he had (and did not use) to reduce troop numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan and that Obama maintained the shameful record of Nobel Peace Prize winners by starting several wars.
Nonsense. It is all about seeking to destroy him politically. Impeachment is used and is framed to remove an individual from office. As far as I am aware, certainly under English Law, you cannot be ‘tried’ on Impeachment once you no longer hold the office. What the Democrats are seeking to do is bring forward a Bill of Attainder, again copied from England and used to destroy powerful individuals by the state. It was used for Laud and Stafford I think. It is totally and utterly unlawful in the USA, prohibited by the Constitution.
You’re right that it’s not political. It is personal and directed not just at Trump, but anyone supportive of him. This is The Club speaking loudly to those who are not members, letting them know that they are unwelcome.
The military can always refuse what are considered unlawful orders. Funny, though, how no one asks that question when the left talks about gun confiscation.
‘The Club’ oh dear
‘Your ridiculous paranoia about Trump and a military coup’ oh dear
I was talking about a real individual, whom a large portion of America believe is psychologically disturbed, and is the commander in chief of the largest military in the world.
You are talking about some ill defined, fictional sounding concept called ‘The Club’
“Presumably he remains in charge of the military until he steps down.”
I think we have a true constitutional scholar here.
I’m astonished by the complacency of some people. The “whataboutism” is like equating flea bites to sharks’. Is it that they have been so inured to Trumpian excess – his blatant lies, his absurd posturing, his vanity, his bigotry, his bullying, his jutting, Mussolinian expressions, his racism, sexism and obvious incitements of violence, that even the shocking events of Jan 6th deserve merely a “motion of censure”? The real hard nuts had prepared before, for sure, but where would they have got without the thousands that went with them as instructed, providing momentum through numbers and shrouding the real intent for as long as possible? Is anyone so naive as to think Trump wasn’t fully aware of what was gong to happen? It had been coming for weeks. Every day I looked to see, but no – despite the daily tirades and lies about the election – despite the calls to ‘stop the steal’ and ‘take our country back’ – all was eerily quiet. We now know why. Trump was priming the pressure cooker for the big event – an 11th hour attempt to jam the wheels of democracy with an assault on the Capitol. With the benefit of time I suspect we will see – not some hysterical over-reaction by Trump-hating Dems, but shocked American patriots (yes – the great majority in the country, conservative and liberal, are the real pariots) declaring for history through the only legal means at hand “enough, we will no longer tolerate hate, fascism and fear eating away at our body politic”.
I also suspect we will see the uncovering of a conspiracy that goes very deep. The big question is – how high does it go?
nuts. tracey is right to talk about the reaction. And there is no “whataboutism” in the article.
Lies breed distrust. Distrust breed rhetoric. Rhetoric breeds fear. Fear breeds violence.
Trump isn’t a child, He knew this. I think this was a genuine if utterly farcical ‘Hitlerbunker’ last ditch attempt by Trump to intimidate Democracy by a show of force and overthrow the election result: and I think he deserves everything being thrown at him..
please show where Trump tried to “intimidate” anyone, let alone democracy itself. The same Capitol that witnessed this event was back in business later that same day. There are numerous stories showing that the fracas appears to have been planned ahead of time, as in long before Trump said whatever you’re told he said. A timeline shows the perimeter being breeched before he said a word to marchers. You are making accusations bereft of even the slightest evidence.
Sorry, but are you actually being serious? A President who in 2020 constantly questioned elections and basically said that if he did not win the election then it must be rigged. Please try and keep some perspective. A year windup for Trumpists, and constant questioning of Judges who threw out 60 court cases about a rigged election-many state elections were certified by Republican election officials. What happened when Republicans were elected-as even Mitch was smart enough to recognise, if you question the validity of these elections results then it will never end, especially if Republicans lose close elections. Trump incited his supporters to storm the Capitol, and even a lot of Republications accept this. As for impeachment, I am doubtful if it was a useful gambit at this point.
Trump incited his supporters to storm the Capitol, and even a lot of Republications accept this.
Again, show where he did this. Because it’s not in the speech. It does not comport with news reports suggesting this was planned ahead of time, and it does not line up a timeline of the events.
Also, judges dismissed cases over procedural matters, not the evidence itself. Not one of those case has actually been heard and adjudicated. Polls here show that 30% of Dems think that fraud occurred. When multiple statistical anomalies and red flags are ignored, that’s not a very convincing case that the election was above board.
As Dawkins would posit-“proof by repeated assertion” is still not proof! For more than a year Trump would pump his supporters up to believe the election would be stolen. 7 million more Americans did not believe him. This is why constantly questioning election results, even in Republican states, is so dangerous-given the level of information on social media by simply repeating demonstrably false information, eg the election was “stolen”, that democratic elections become severely undermined-you do see that do you not? Hence every election must be rigged. In this case many Republican states checked all signatures, and as Lindsay Graham no less asked-show me 10 names of people who voted when they were dead or under 18. He did not get a single name-many of these rumours are exactly that as the senior Georgian election official went through item by item. The deaths turned out to sometimes true of different people with the same name. As for the under 18s-yes people who did ask for ballots when they were 17 had turned 18 by election day and hence were eligible to vote. There was absolutely minimal “corruption” in this election
They questioned statistical anomalies. They questioned how Biden could under perform Hillary in EVERY Dem enclave except the ones in the swing states. They questioned how places with 90% Dem votes suddenly jumped to 98%. They questioned how massive vote dumps favored Biden each time and did so in the states where it mattered. And they questioned how a man who barely left his basement managed to win more votes than his old boss by taking fewer counties.
How come Trump got 11m more votes than 2016?
Apparently it would have been physically impossible for anyone present at Trump’s speech to have got to the Capitol in time for when it kicked off. Any truth in this?
If so, the incitement charge looks a little flimsy…
This article is hysterical. It would be funny if it wasn’t trying to justify an attempt by a bunch of traitors to overthrow American democracy. The election wasn’t even close. there was no fraud, according to the Republicans running the elections. The votes were then verified, sometimes repeatedly. Trump tried over and over to change the result of a legal election. Then he incited his followers to violence to do that.
No one said the threat from Iraq was imminent. They said they invaded Kuwait. Oh yeah, the “WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION”. That was all just another right wing boogey man. You have to expect that from them. They thrive on made up stories to incite fear to drive their base since their policies generally suck. d**k Cheney may be one of the worst criminals in American history in terms of damage he did to America.
Seriously, Iraq was way over there. Trump is right here.
So the flaw in this impeachment proceeding is that Pelosi waited a week to serve the articles? She’s not that worried about a violent coup as the rioters at the Capitol mostly looked like losers and the National Guard will cover the rest until the FBI gets them into jail. Those fines are going to sting!
The Articles of Impeachment are about the most obvious law – Sedition. It was obviously the law to invoke against someone that instigated an attack on Congress to force them to overturn a legal election.
Oh, you couldn’t “actually sit down and read it”? It was just a couple pages. I like short laws.
Incitement is when you tell a crowd to go surround Congress and they immediately go do it. That is exactly what happened. It was the last step in months of incitement with Trump dishonestly claiming the election was stolen. It doesn’t matter that Trump might or might not have known they were going there to execute Congressional Representatives and overthrow the outcome of the Electoral College. They were going to reverse the outcome of the American Election. That is overthrowing the government. Attempting to do that is called Sedition. He told them to go there to “take back the country – that is overturn the election. Could, would have, might have, might not have… are all out weighted by what they did do. They attacked Congress! It was Sedition and they shall pay painfully. Hopefully they will be rooted out of all American Institutions. My parents fought the NAZIs in WWII. They would fight these fascists too.
Jesus. The protestors at the Capitol broke a window. One of their own number was shot dead on very little provocation.
If she’d been black / disabled / lesbian would she have been a freedom fighter in your eyes?
They made no noticeable attempts to overturn the government. You’ve succumbed utterly to the bumgas narrative of idiots like Pelosi and AOC.
Trump simply asked people to turn out, he didn’t tell them to invade the building, bring weapons or try to overturn the government.
Your whole argument runs off the fumes of your own Trump derangement and MSM brainwashing.
With such a fearsome imagination and projection you must be scared to leave the house most days.
Michael, with all due respect, you are attempting to defend the indefensible!
Trump polarises opinion and more people hate him than those who love him right now!
The problem is not related to Freedom of Speech becoming eroded – in the USA.
The problem is Trump himself. It is as simple as this; He is just not a very nice man – and an extremely lazy President!Him, Donald Trump the person and not the Republican Party. Republicans do the best they can, as do the Democrats and, whichever party is in power, good governance depends on strong opposition and welcomes differing opinions!
Perhaps you should notify Twitter and Facebook that strong opposition and differing opinions are necessary ingredients for good governance.
The level of motivated reasoning in this article is astonishing. A typical Trump apologist who uses specious comparisons very cleverly. The experience of reading this is much like listening to that other right wing ‘intellectual’ Jordan Peterson. Ugh. One wants to shower for weeks…..
The author attempts to equate political speech by activists and journalists in the summer to what Trump did on 6 January. This is a false equivalence. Sure, lots of people said incendiary stuff. But the difference is that Trump is the most powerful man in the world, who was peddling an outrageous lie to falsely stoke grievance to overturn an election and criminally remain in power. That demands a robust response.
What did Trump do? Please point to the words or actions; don’t simply repeat what you’ve been told. And this summer was just a bit more than “speech by activists or journalists.” It caused billions in damage and a few dozen deaths.
He peddled an outrageous lie to falsely stoke grievance to overturn an election and criminally remain in power, is what he did.
What lie was peddled? About a third of Dems believe the election was not on the up and up. Evidence has been produced and to date, no court has bothered with an actual hearing on the matter. You being told that it’s a lie does not make it so. There are numerous statistical anomalies involved, enough to merit a closer look which, for some reason, the left refuses to consider.
Give me a break. If you’re so brainwashed and desperate that you swallow all the Trumpian falsehood hook, line and sinker, you’re free to do so. Good luck with it. You may find some unicorns, too. I’ll stick to evidence.
So you are unable to answer and are left with sputtering insults. How typical.
Tell you what. Why don’t you gather all the gold-dust evidence you want to believe is there, and get up the court case that 60 others failed to do. Then we can sensibly talk.
None of the courts considered the evidence. That is one point you persist in ignoring. Among others.
You seem wilfully obtuse about how court systems work. The cases were not heard because the evidence put forward was deemed ridiculous by by judges. There is no evidence.
That is simply not true. Not one case was adjudicated based on evidence. They were kicked over technicalities.
Some cases were dismissed for lack of standing and others based on the merits of the voter fraud allegations. The decisions came from both Democratic-appointed and Republican-appointed judges ““ including federal judges appointed by Trump.
Not a single case has been adjudicated on the merits of the evidence. When courts are refusing to even consider cases, some might wonder why. Especially in light of numerous statistical anomalies.
Ah, so you think there’s a conspiracy among judges in the United States? Even among Trump-appointed judges?
That’s a neat trick for conspiracy theorists. When your conspiracy theory is so evidently weak … invent more conspiracies!
More things I didn’t say.
Okay, then, why do you think the judges rejected the cases?
On the surface, technicalities. Beyond that, not a place they wanted to go. Imagine the loss of public trust if problems WERE proven. Instead, there is a loss of trust anyway.
You can ponder that if you like. Most people will be correctly impressed by the fact that Lying Team Trump threw warehouses full of doodoo at the wall and none of it stuck, because it was just dishonest doodoo.
Except it’s not what “most people” are doing. When a third of Dems believe something screwy happened, you can ignore it, but it does not change that people are skeptical.
What were the “technicalities”?
For example, the Supreme Court refused ot hear a lawsuit brought by Texas over ‘standing.’ Are you really this ill-informed.
And what does “standing” mean?
you are going to have do a bit of research.
Ah, so you don’t know. You’re just regurgitating the drivel spewed by Trump mouthpieces.
I’m not the one asking what it is.
It means basically ‘the ability of a party to demonstrate to the court sufficient connection to and harm from the law or action challenged to support that party’s participation in the case’ e.g. if someone calls you an idiot I can’t sue them for libel.
Usually ‘standing’. Another was ‘time’.
You should say there were statistical aberrations and causes for concern. However, there is no evidence of a planned attempt to rig the election by a malign actor. Current evidence of fraud would not overturn the result.
However, there is no evidence of a planned attempt to rig the election by a malign actor.
There is plenty of evidence, in the form of signed affidavits and more than a few videos, that suggest something improper may have occurred. The statistical aberrations are just one more thing that should have merited a closer look. If that second look reveals the result as an honest one, so be it. But dismissing all of the above out of hand is bad faith, and it bodes poorly for the system.
This amounts to hearsay and not evidence.
Affidavits amount to testimony and are done under penalty of perjury. When a court refuses to hear a case, that’s not justice. Again, if a second look only confirms the result, then that’s what happens. But when people fight this hard to prevent a closer look, it raises a eyebrow or two.
When people fight this hard to push a narrative that has flimsy evidence one suspects more sinister motives.
When people fight this hard to suppress evidence and similarly fight hard to ignore the aberrations, you may be right about sinister motives.
The courts have rejected the cases because of flimsy evidence. That is not suppression. The Trump campaign have failed in 60 court cases. If you just blame any event you don’t like on the deep state no one can help you.
The courts have not considered the evidence. They relied on procedural issues and technicalities. There has yet to a hearing that pondered the evidence.
I am not a legal expert but I am fairly certain that is not how the law works. You have provide evidence that your case is worth hearing in relation to the allegation. The Trump campaign have failed in this task, therefore, their cases have been rejected. If you can’t explain those technicalities maybe you should defer to a legal expert rather than defaulting to conspiracies. Just a thought.
You can have all the evidence you want. If the judge decides some procedural matter is in question, the evidence is not heard. Was the TX lawsuit misguided? No one knows. Because the Supreme Court used ‘standing’ as the means for not hearing the case at all. Multiple state legislatures had hearings where people testified about what they saw, but they’re not courts.
On Thursday, a judge rejected the Trump campaign’s attempt to throw out absentee ballots in the Bucks County case, noting, “The parties specifically stipulated in their comprehensive stipulation of facts that there exists no evidence of any fraud, misconduct, or any impropriety with respect to the challenged ballots. There is nothing in the record and nothing alleged that would lead to the conclusion that any of the challenged ballots were submitted by someone not qualified or entitled to vote in this election.”
But what was testified before various committees in various States was on Oath.
The Courts have rejected almost every case not on ‘flimsy evidence’ – they have never heard the damned evidence for God’s sake – but on very narrow legalistic procedure grounds usually around ‘standing’.
n a separate state case in Montgomery County, Pa., a judge asked Trump lawyer Jonathan S. Goldstein whether he was alleging fraud. “Your honor, accusing people of fraud is a pretty big step,” Goldstein said. “And it is rare that I call somebody a liar, and I am not calling the Board of the [Democratic National Committee] or anybody else involved in this a liar. Everybody is coming to this with good faith.” The judge pressed Goldstein to answer the specific question: “Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these 592 disputed ballots?” To which Goldstein replied: “To my knowledge at present, no.”
I wonder if you could explain something. How is it possible for 10300+ dead people to have voted ? How is it in one county 135000 people voted and yet 106000 of those votes had to be ‘adjudicated’.
Further, as you mention Pennsylvania, I wonder how it is that the Governor, Secretary of State and the State Supreme Court where able to amend Election Law when the Constitution clear states that this is the exclusive prerogative of the State Legislature.
Can you explain ‘standing’ to me, please?
And what response should the actual incitement to actual violence perpetrated by Pelosi, Waters at all receive ?
What are you referring to?
Please quote where Trump asked people to invade the Capitol building and overthrow the government.
His efforts to change the election results all went through the appropriate legal channels. It was the embodiment of democracy in action through the judiciary.
It is not a “rash over-reaction” to impeach a president for using brazen lies to incite a mob to march on the Capitol just as lawmakers were certifying the results of the election.
It’s called a Mostly Peaceful Protest (except – that they neglected to burn anything down). Keep up with the times – you sound like a fossil from The Sixties, or something.
Democratic side just does not listen to the other side. You simply don’t. And that is frustrating to them. You have to understand that. And remember that every time there is censorship and dominion of information from only one side.
Always listen to the other side. Otherwise, the other side has no other resource to call for your attention than a punch in the face.
You just don’t understand how utterly frustrating it is to live with your “we are the good guys and we are always right always right, so f u” attitude. I blame on violence on that.
Trump is a horrible, evil, hateful individual who wants nothing but power for himself. If you cannot see that, in every one of his actions and responses for the past five years, then you have as many screws loose as he does. He has sown nothing but bigotry and animosity during his entire term and the US is surely worse off for it. That ALONE warrants his removal. It was warranted day one. He is an ugly smear on this nation and on humanity in general. His association with that angry, violent and sadistic mob of terrorists is repugnant. He is getting what he deserves and I hope he gets ever more.
“Trump is a horrible, evil, hateful individual who wants nothing but power for himself.”
Just like his opponents then. It wasn’t Trump who rampaged around Portland burning, looting. and assaulting people.
And New york,Michigan,San Francisco etc..
🊠man BAD!!
So you call Trump a horrible, evil person and suggest his supporters are angry and violent low-lifes, yet HE is the one sowing animosity? Do you people even hear yourselves?
The left effectively sanctioned months of rioting and murder – in its own cities, by the way – and the same people now strangling the straws either justified that violence or said nothing about it. And is the BLM guy charged in the Capitol incident part of Team Trump? How about the son of a Brooklyn judge who was also arrested?
He invaded no countries and started no wars during his term.
Wow. Trump Derangement Syndrome for certain. He apparently never did exercise his extensive Presidential powers as others had done. While much of his conduct as huckster in chief was appalling, his actions were quite responsible and had public utility.