How could anyone truly even consider that this cartoon is not a slam-dunk classic freedom of speech case? Remember, nothing is above satire if free speech truly exists – nothing. As for the transgender lobby: one could call their bluff here and ask, if you so want to be seen as “equal normal every-day” members of our society, when are you going to allow us to include you in our dialogue (and jokes) as a peripheral part that serves to illustrate that “normality” but doesn’t warrant comment?
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
The cartoon caption seems to be a perfectly reasonable question that anyone – penguin or otherwise – might ask, and not remotely controversial or even particularly amusing.
it is almost impossible for most adults – except those of very sound mind and possessed of a deep knowledge of historical parallels and an ability to identify BS and its consequences — to make sense of all the stuff that swirls around us. So, as you say, the kids have no chance, which is probably why so many kids are struggling with their ‘mennal ‘elf’, although of course the Mental Health Industrial Complex is also playing a major role here.
I’ve heard some great comic stories from French people told with a completely straight face about how they liberated Paris and defeated the Nazis. They had me rolling around in laughter and yet they didn’t even show the hint of a smile. And then there’s the one about Johnny Holiday being better than the Beatles.
Ah Fraser! Blasphemy! Surely so many of their movies are masterpieces of humour?
Dan Poynton
3 years ago
Interesting that I couldn’t easily find any sign of the actual cartoon anywhere, even by clicking on all links (has Le Monde now expunged it?). Is Unherd unable to publish it here because of copyright, or do they too lack the courage to do so? [Great article btw – not criticising the author]
Yes, I thought it was wonderfully pitched from the point of view of humour (although I’m not French), was relatively tame, and made the point perfectly.
Thanks Stuart. Is Google braver than Unherd here? I doubt it actually, and I would suspect that both the ready availability of it on Google and the lack of an image here is due to it being in French. Is it time to make all our kids learn French again?
No, it is invigorating…outrage and moral posturing are the stimulant drugs of choice for many in our confused present.
William Cameron
3 years ago
I increasingly observe that merely mentioning any group of people is racist/sexist/otherist . Referring to Trans people at all – immediate offence. Referring to Black people at all- racist . Referring to [ choose any religion} -intolerant. Wrong. Referring to things or groups genders ethnicities etc has to be possible – how else can you discuss anything ?
Agreed. To simply mention a race or even the possibility of a race is immediately shut down as “racist”, while the regressive left are obsessed with race, both Blackness and whiteness (and please remember, “whiteness” must have no capital). In fact their fervour in regard to race means we are never allowed to forget it for a moment, while we all must pretend its very existence is a figment of our imaginations.
Christopher Barclay
3 years ago
Glad to see our woke warriors have their priorities right and are offended by a cartoon and not by the sexual abuse of a 14 year old boy by his stepfather or by the fact that every adult who knew about it did nothing.
Exactly the cartoonist’s point. All the froth over the “offence” obscures this point. The newspaper reacted too quickly and too cowardly.
larry tate
3 years ago
Breaking News! Due to a world wide shortage of inhibitors hormones, the transgender community has been wiped out of the planet. No drugs, no trans. Some commentators have stressed the point that Nature cannot be fooled.
Free speech matters. As soon as denial of free speech arises -you have to ask “Who Decides” ? (Jordan Petersen) . Are the left / Trans Gender/ etc -content to let a right of centre Govt decide what is permitted ? Of course not . So why shoulda country be content that the Left decide what is permitted ?The Left have no majority of morality- their history has as much if not more blood on its hands as the Right. All extremist are bad -and free speech is our only defence against extremists.
vince porter
3 years ago
Fear is the food of mobs. When appeased, they are emboldened, rather than satiated.
Nicolas Jouan
3 years ago
Let’s remember that these Twitter-generated “conflagrations” simply wooosh above the head of 98% of the population. Fortunately.
It’s a good point. However I fear it’s recently become quite a lot lower than 98%, due to the militancy of the regressive left. Even my 90 yr old uncle and aunt are at least aware of the egg-shell nature of these issues and know to guard their speech over certain issues.
That is not true. The mass media and social media have an incestuous relationship. The media mainstreams twitter outrage and can create entire stories just from the social media reaction. So unless 98% of the population lives in a cave, these furores reach them.
Margaret Tudeau-Clayton
3 years ago
For those of you who understand French (:)) here is a recently posted interview with Xavier Gorce: https://www.youtube.com/wat…
Alas cowardice and narcissism appear to be the prime values of our ‘elites’ today, yet another illustration of this.
The West is in trouble
Pete Kreff
3 years ago
“which could be read as a minimisation of the gravity of incest, at a time when society is just facing up to its extent”
It sounds almost as if Mr Fenoglio is afraid this cartoon might tip the potentially incestuous over the edge.
Frank Freeman
3 years ago
I have googles “Xavier Gorce”,but have still not been able to find the cartoon, or an English translation. If someone could put in a link I would be grateful.
Geoff Allen
3 years ago
What’s next for the Twitter and Woke folks – are they going to suggest we all stop having a laugh- or are they going to suggest we start giving hormone drugs to penguins. It’s hilarious to even contemplate responding to this shit.
Robert Montgomery
3 years ago
As I said at the time about the cartoons mocking Islam and the murder of Charlie Hebdo staff(which I condemned unreservedly) would it still be funny if a cartoon of Jesus with a missile inserted in his a**s was published? Because that was one of the cartoons Hebdo published featuring Muhammad. How was that funny?
It may or not be funny; surely that is not the question. the question is whether the press is free to offend. With Charlie, apparently yes, with Le Monde apparently No.
Was there obscenity? Was there comething more than a reference to a particularly form of sexual relations? The uncensored version of that is not an obscenity.
It’s a very important question Robert, but I’ve seen many Charlie cartoons also mocking Christianity (and anything else). One was of the Son having an*l int*rco*rse with the Father while having the Holy Ghost do the same to him – I trust that satisfies the criteria.
Howard Medwell
3 years ago
I’ll miss those penguins… perhaps M. Gorce could be offered a job on this side of the Channel (joke)…
How could anyone truly even consider that this cartoon is not a slam-dunk classic freedom of speech case? Remember, nothing is above satire if free speech truly exists – nothing.
As for the transgender lobby: one could call their bluff here and ask, if you so want to be seen as “equal normal every-day” members of our society, when are you going to allow us to include you in our dialogue (and jokes) as a peripheral part that serves to illustrate that “normality” but doesn’t warrant comment?
The cartoon caption seems to be a perfectly reasonable question that anyone – penguin or otherwise – might ask, and not remotely controversial or even particularly amusing.
For me the cartoon cleverly highlights the near impossibility for a child to make sense of all this stuff that increasingly swirls around them.
I also wonder at what age it is fair and responsible to expose children to this type of conversation ?
it is almost impossible for most adults – except those of very sound mind and possessed of a deep knowledge of historical parallels and an ability to identify BS and its consequences — to make sense of all the stuff that swirls around us. So, as you say, the kids have no chance, which is probably why so many kids are struggling with their ‘mennal ‘elf’, although of course the Mental Health Industrial Complex is also playing a major role here.
I find much French humor not “particularly amusing”…but that is not unusual. I mean, Jerry Lewis?
No, the French don’t really seem to do humour, although the Maginot Line was quite funny.
I’ve heard some great comic stories from French people told with a completely straight face about how they liberated Paris and defeated the Nazis. They had me rolling around in laughter and yet they didn’t even show the hint of a smile. And then there’s the one about Johnny Holiday being better than the Beatles.
Ah Fraser! Blasphemy! Surely so many of their movies are masterpieces of humour?
Interesting that I couldn’t easily find any sign of the actual cartoon anywhere, even by clicking on all links (has Le Monde now expunged it?). Is Unherd unable to publish it here because of copyright, or do they too lack the courage to do so?
[Great article btw – not criticising the author]
It’s in the first five Google Images result for “Xavier Gorce”.
Thanks, I found it. It’s completely innocuous – as you would expect given the hair-trigger sensitivity of trans activists.
Yes, I thought it was wonderfully pitched from the point of view of humour (although I’m not French), was relatively tame, and made the point perfectly.
Thank you very much, Stuart. I couldn’t find it either. You’re a buddy. It was good to see the great French cartoonist Plantu defending Gorce on Gorce’s Twitter feed. Plantu thought Gorce’s cartoon was brilliant (génial).
Thanks Stuart. Is Google braver than Unherd here? I doubt it actually, and I would suspect that both the ready availability of it on Google and the lack of an image here is due to it being in French. Is it time to make all our kids learn French again?
https://www.bing.com/images…
It must be exhausting to be perpetually offended by something.
No, it is invigorating…outrage and moral posturing are the stimulant drugs of choice for many in our confused present.
I increasingly observe that merely mentioning any group of people is racist/sexist/otherist . Referring to Trans people at all – immediate offence. Referring to Black people at all- racist . Referring to [ choose any religion} -intolerant.
Wrong.
Referring to things or groups genders ethnicities etc has to be possible – how else can you discuss anything ?
Agreed. To simply mention a race or even the possibility of a race is immediately shut down as “racist”, while the regressive left are obsessed with race, both Blackness and whiteness (and please remember, “whiteness” must have no capital). In fact their fervour in regard to race means we are never allowed to forget it for a moment, while we all must pretend its very existence is a figment of our imaginations.
Glad to see our woke warriors have their priorities right and are offended by a cartoon and not by the sexual abuse of a 14 year old boy by his stepfather or by the fact that every adult who knew about it did nothing.
Exactly the cartoonist’s point. All the froth over the “offence” obscures this point. The newspaper reacted too quickly and too cowardly.
Breaking News! Due to a world wide shortage of inhibitors hormones, the transgender community has been wiped out of the planet. No drugs, no trans. Some commentators have stressed the point that Nature cannot be fooled.
No…only people, it seems.
Free speech matters. As soon as denial of free speech arises -you have to ask “Who Decides” ? (Jordan Petersen) .
Are the left / Trans Gender/ etc -content to let a right of centre Govt decide what is permitted ? Of course not . So why shoulda country be content that the Left decide what is permitted ?The Left have no majority of morality- their history has as much if not more blood on its hands as the Right. All extremist are bad -and free speech is our only defence against extremists.
Fear is the food of mobs. When appeased, they are emboldened, rather than satiated.
Let’s remember that these Twitter-generated “conflagrations” simply wooosh above the head of 98% of the population. Fortunately.
It’s a good point. However I fear it’s recently become quite a lot lower than 98%, due to the militancy of the regressive left. Even my 90 yr old uncle and aunt are at least aware of the egg-shell nature of these issues and know to guard their speech over certain issues.
That is not true. The mass media and social media have an incestuous relationship. The media mainstreams twitter outrage and can create entire stories just from the social media reaction. So unless 98% of the population lives in a cave, these furores reach them.
For those of you who understand French (:)) here is a recently posted interview with Xavier Gorce: https://www.youtube.com/wat…
thanks but not allowed in our country;
Why am I not surprised by any of this?
Alas cowardice and narcissism appear to be the prime values of our ‘elites’ today, yet another illustration of this.
The West is in trouble
It sounds almost as if Mr Fenoglio is afraid this cartoon might tip the potentially incestuous over the edge.
I have googles
“Xavier Gorce”,but have still not been able to find the cartoon, or an English translation. If someone could put in a link I would be grateful.
What’s next for the Twitter and Woke folks – are they going to suggest we all stop having a laugh- or are they going to suggest we start giving hormone drugs to penguins. It’s hilarious to even contemplate responding to this shit.
As I said at the time about the cartoons mocking Islam and the murder of Charlie Hebdo staff(which I condemned unreservedly) would it still be funny if a cartoon of Jesus with a missile inserted in his a**s was published? Because that was one of the cartoons Hebdo published featuring Muhammad. How was that funny?
It may or not be funny; surely that is not the question. the question is whether the press is free to offend. With Charlie, apparently yes, with Le Monde apparently No.
This comment has been edited above for “obscenity”.
Was there obscenity? Was there comething more than a reference to a particularly form of sexual relations? The uncensored version of that is not an obscenity.
Exactly Andrew. Just to be clear: my comment was an ironic jab at the rather Victorian Unherd censoring algorithm.
It’s a very important question Robert, but I’ve seen many Charlie cartoons also mocking Christianity (and anything else). One was of the Son having an*l int*rco*rse with the Father while having the Holy Ghost do the same to him – I trust that satisfies the criteria.
I’ll miss those penguins… perhaps M. Gorce could be offered a job on this side of the Channel (joke)…