He did indeed die primarily of a drug overdose. Moreover, my understanding is that he forced his way out of the cop car on the grounds of something between suffocation and claustrophobia. Apparently this is when he said ‘I can’t breathe’, but I am not 100% sure on that. He then asked the the cops to lay him on the ground. Perhaps the cop – and this particular cop should probably have been fired some time ago, but he was in a Democrat city so uselessness is the governing MO – should not have put his knee on this shoulder. But had he not done so, there was every chance that Floyd would have attempted to flee.
there is a video in which he says “I can’t breathe” before exiting the vehicle. On that video, onlookers can be heard saying things like “dude, stop resisting” and similar things. The deaths was totally avoidable, but that’s a separate matter from how the incident has been portrayed. And when the officers are acquitted – because charging anyone with murder guarantees that – there will be more rioting.
Nope. According to two autopsies (which I took the time to read) he died of asphyxiation – i.e. not enough oxygen to the brain. Also Floyd had 10 nanograms per ml fentanyl in his blood which would have been enough to anaesthetise not kill.
Watching the bodycam footage it is possible either the knee on the neck or the pressure on the chest plus some effect from the drugs in his system or a combination of all three was responsible for the asphyxiation.
Virtually all of the footage comes with some commentators lurid misinterpretation, but looking past all that you see much more than the viral video. I can’t give you a blow-by-blow account because I’d be typing all night. There is huge amounts of misinformation though, which simply reading the autopsies will disabuse you of.
At the same time you can make up your own mind how much pain an anaesthetised man was in, or how claustrophobic he was when just got out of another car was. Still, his distress is palpable, and apart from going stiff and making like a cat refusing to go through a catflap he doesn’t get violent. He is not a well or organised individual, but neither am I sometimes, and I don’t want to be crushed to death by law enforcement.
Although the bodycam footage is revealing about the behaviour of Floyd and the officers, it is impossible to divine motive from all of the video put together. Chauvin’s behaviour in particular is odd, he seems to be intently concentrating on a medical case and making really bad calls despite intervention from his fellow officers. The crowd were definitely complicating affairs, possibly causing time dilation, and at one crucial point we go from the crowd talking rubbish having made up their mind about stuff they don’t know, and then actually haveing more information about Floyd’s state than the police but not being able to get it across. Most people have made up their minds based on one particular onlooker’s voice over on the original viral video to decide motive, and that onlooker had decided motive within seconds of Floyd being laid on the ground, and with no real picture of the entire situation.
However, either the police practice was woefully inadequate due to departmental policy or policy wasn’t followed. They should have gotten their weight off him the moment he became unresponsive, in fact one officer suggests that they roll him on his side at about 6 minutes in, and Chauvin says no. Very bad decision. Two minutes later the ambulance turns up.
So either the police department through bad policy or Chauvin from not following policy was responsible for Floyd’s death. I can’t divine motive or lack of it.
Mark Corby
3 years ago
On the 18th November last, BBC 1 broadcast a much heralded interview between the black TV Historian, Professor David Olusoga and the sainted one, President emeritus, Obama.
Early in the interview Obama referred to the “murder of “George Floyd”. Olusoga did not challenge that as yet unproven allegation, and in bovine fashion, said nothing.
If such blatant falsehoods past unchallenged, by these two individuals what hope is there?
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Floyd George knew my father, my father knew Floyd George.
‘The forces of reason, pluralism, legality and democracy are fractured’.
For 15 years now I have described modern Britain as a land devoid of all reason, morality or justice. With each passing day, my diagnosis is further vindicated.
There isn’t one. Periodically sceptics, such as myself, who prefer to reserve judgment as far as possible, are overwhelmed by ‘people of faith’. We are living through such a time now (cue the comparisons of Jeremy Corbyn with followers of ‘Jesus’ e.g. in the ‘Morning Star’).
It is, almost certainly, far too late for any ‘solution’.
Mark M
3 years ago
The ‘martyrdom’ of militant Islamism is not *actively* rejected by the majority of Muslims. I do not see massive street demonstrations by Muslims around the world against these martyrs ““ I am more likely to see demonstrations in support. But the majority of Muslims in western countries, when asked, will express disagreement with the martyrdom concept so, yes, they could be *passively* rejecting it. Or they could be unwilling to express their thoughts publicly in a society that is hostile to those ideas, in the same way that many right-wingers feel they cannot openly express their opinions in western societies. It seems to me that there is a large pool of support out there and we are not going to see the end of this sort of martyrdom soon.
That the ‘martyrdom’ of islamist terrorists is rejected by their community is an idea continuously being pushed around by Western ‘experts’ who believe they know islam better than the islamists. On the contrary- islamist terrorists are universally revered by their families and acquire celebrity status in their communities. I am as yet to see the family of a muslim terrorist refer to him as a murderer of innocents rather than as a martyr defending his righteous faith. The recent cases from Pakistan, where islamic fanatics kill alleged blasphemers, ateists or even lawyers defending accused blasphemers in court, and who acquire celebrity status thereafter are perfect examples.
aemiliuspaullus
3 years ago
Fascinating article on a little discussed topic.
However, I find the author’s omission of any reference to Jewish martyrdom to be very peculiar. Surely, the elevation of the Christian martyr derives its power from Jewish piety/literature? Especially the critical years following the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus III (173-164 BC). At that period, immortality, let alone a resurrected afterlife, had not been the hope of the practising Jews. It was only after the revolt, that the heroes were idealized as martyrs, present in heaven before God.
Then the Jewish war (70 AD) added the memory of thousands more Jews who preferred to die rather than betray their Jewish faith. The revolt in Judea (130’s AD) added further martyrs to Jewish history, especially heroic scholars/teachers. In due course, the deaths of the early Jewish prophets become adorned with tales of painful martyrdom, a process which had already begun in the earliest days of Christianity.
Very interesting. I hadn’t imagined Christian Martyrdom had a precursor, but given that Christianity started with such a spectacular a martyrdom, something must have gone on before.
More like slavishly following Schürer, Fischel, Manson, and Lane Fox ! It was from my notes that I had jotted down a long time ago and IIRC he called it “the great revolt in Judaea of the 130’s”. From what I understand it has been called by several names: The Bar Kokhba revolt, Mered Bar Kokhba, the Third Jewish-Roman War, or the Third Jewish Revolt. You are right it was more severe.
Marie Morton
3 years ago
The complexity re the martyrdom of George Floyd though is that he was not the first man to die in such circumstances – knee on neck resulting in death – so when this was pointed out by many as being unique it wasn’t. Google the whiteTony Timpa.
This from the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com… “Video of Dallas police pinning a man to the ground for more than 13 minutes until he loses consciousness and dies has been made public after a years-long legal battle. Tony Timpa, 32, died in August 2016 as he was restrained by three police officers in a Dallas parking lot. Timpa had called 911 to say he had come off his medication for schizophrenia and depression and needed help. In the bodycam video, finally obtained by the Dallas Morning News, Timpa, who had been handcuffed by store security guards, is pinned to the ground in a prone position with a knee on his back as he pleads with police to release him. “You’re going to kill me!” Timpa shouts repeatedly. The three officers laugh and joke as they restrain Timpa on the ground. One officer mocks Timpa as a “roly-poly”. As he becomes unresponsive, with his face in the grass, the officers joke that he has fallen asleep. When Timpa finally stops moving, the trio continue their mockery.” and further: “Three police officers were indicted on charges of misdemeanor deadly conduct, according to the 2017 police press release and court records. The indictments were handed down more than a year after Timpa’s death and three months after The Dallas Morning News published its investigation into the death. On March 18, the Dallas County District Attorney’s office dismissed the charges, saying the decision was made following a lengthy investigation into the official cause of death and a discussion with three medical examiners.” Yet the BBC and MSM – despite knowing the comparison – never said anything. I put in a complaint – after 4 months I was given the option of taking it further but realised it wasn’t worth it. However I think that what happened to Tony Timpa should be more widely known. There were no demonstrations after what had happened to him. This should show that George Floyd was not unique and therefore not a BLM martyr.
Which really should not be such a surprise to us, after all careers as police officer, or corrections officer tend not to draw most heavily from the most altruistic and morally upstanding elements of our society. That they act brutishly to those they have power over is sad but ought not to be a complete surprise. That their misbehaviour is accepted as racist as a matter of course is both facile and unfair. We instead succumb to the superficiality of slogans and rabble rousing “activists” …
“As the questions grow harder and more complicated, people yearn for simpler answers, one-sentence answers, answers that point unhesitatingly to a culprit who can be blamed for all our suffering, answers that promise that if we only eradicate the villains, all our troubles will vanish.” “• Amos Oz,
Andrew Baldwin
3 years ago
Great post by Jenny as usual. Unfortunately, in her narrative the progress from the martyrdom of St. Ignatius and other martyrs of the early Church to the murder of Thomas à Beckett and a Polish Catholic priest by the Communist government and a definition of martyrdom by Pope Benedict gives one the impression that Christian martyrdom has been largely a Roman Catholic thing. Although the martyrdom of Coptic Christians is mentioned afterwards, there is no specific mention of the Orthodox Church (i.e. the churches that are in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople). The year 1054 is generally agreed to be the year in which the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church became distinct entities. St. Ignatius is recognized as a martyr by Orthodox Christians as well as Roman Catholics. As Jenny mentions, he was the bishop of Antioch. Antioch, along with Alexandria, Constantinople, and Jerusalem, was one of the patriarchates that would later define the Orthodox Church after the break with Rome. Vibia Perpetua and Felicity, martyrs of the early church, would also be recognized as martyrs of the Orthodox Church. Of course, Orthodox Christians do not accept Pope Benedict as an authority on who is and is not a martyr. The number of Orthodox Christians who suffered martyrdom under Communist rule following the Bolshevik Revolution absolutely dwarfed the number of early Christians who suffered the same fate. There were probably more than 130 martyr-bishops and the number of martyr-priests would be in the tens of thousands. It was like a fulfillment of the prophecy of the 17th century Archpriest Avakum: “Satan has obtained our radiant Russia from God, that she may become red with the blood of martyrs.”
Claire D
3 years ago
Interesting and timely article but “signage” in the last paragraph ? !! Should have been ‘symbolism’, or is there something unacceptable about ‘symbolism’ these days ?
Arnold Grutt
3 years ago
“the beleaguered Copts of Egypt, for example ” who can trace their Christian roots in the region back to 42 AD”
This seems an extraordinarily precise date for any event in the Christian world of the first century. What event or fact does it relate to? Most dates of events in the ‘Christian’ world at that time are no more than rough calculatons based on various timelines established by writings elsewhere e.g. those of Roman and Jewish historians, whose dates can be cross-checked against physical things like monuments, memorials etc. etc. Even the ‘crucifixion of Jesus ‘ cannot be tied down to a date. In my view there is significant doubt that Pontius PIlate was really involved, and even within Christian literature there are contrary claims e.g. one of the apocryphal Gospels claims that Jesus was ‘killed by the Jews’. This is not to say that such claims are more true, just that they exist.
As far as historians of the 1st C. are concerned Christianity is particularly difficult, because the source documents are undated (even the best calculations depend on carbon-dating, which can only narrow a dating down so much, before becoming slightly vague).
I don’t think the exact date is important. But it is certainly true that Christianity pre dates Islam in large swathes of the near east. Something to do with the Eastern Roman Empire?
Well, in some ways it can be. It can reveal obvious pastiches or forgeries, revealing developmental incompatibilities. But I agree. A ’cause’, defined as one thing causing another in a sequential way, is often the most difficult thing to find in ‘history’, if in fact it can be identified at all. Single causes of that sort really don’t exist. NT scholars have learned to live with the uncertainties of chronology.
This is a calculation. By tradition, the Coptic Church in Egypt was begun by the apostle Mark, who stands in the same relationship to it as St Peter does to Rome. The generally accepted date of his arrival was 42AD, but as you say, we’re not even 100% sure of the exact date of the Crucifixion, so these things are estimates. What’s not in question is that it is and extremely ancient church and certainly dates from the decades following the death of Christ.
Yes, Unfortunately there is an unacknowledged aspect to tradition. Most of it is completely bogus. Whenever a historical enterprise tackles tradition in detail, the entire edifice starts to totter. This is what causes political wranglings over ‘justification’ by tradition. And so we find pointless discussions about ‘What exactly happened’. No history (however recent) is capable of stating this finally.
Well, good piece of wit, but it really isn’t. What evidence is there that a person/God called ‘Jesus’ was actually crucified at all. except using the claims of ‘believers’? So how can we relate other events chronologically when the actual starting point, usually ’33 AD’ is not even provable. And was there really a person called ‘Mark’, with a biography and life history well-known to contemporaries? None of this is certain in the least.
We don’t even know what type of documents the ‘Gospels’ were intended to be taken as when written. History? Myth? Bedtime story? Plays for acting out? etc. etc.
The reason for opposing the killing of Copts is that it is inhumane and barbarous now. The supposed antiquity of their ‘faith’ is beside the point.
That’s a reason for opposing killing anyone. And if you’re a mythicist, I’m not going to waste any time convincing you of the existence of the historical personage called “Jesus Christ”. The atheist scholar Bart Ehrman did that already. Read “Did Jesus Exist”.
What does it matter, the date? As for why we know someone called Jesus was crucified it is because if you were inventing a man out of whole cloth then why would you have him die the death of a criminal? Don’t be confused by the fact that later Christianity came to cope with that theologically, it was a problem at the start. The gospels were definitely meant as history.
The most interesting question is why Pilate was such a “woke” bedwetter, letting Christ off with a Friday afternoon crucifixion? When he should done at least Sunday to Wednesday, if ‘he’ was fit and healthy.
Had the Roman Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus, not been killed in battle at the early age of 31/32, Christianity might have been put back in its box, and would now be only of passing academic interest.
Marie Morton
3 years ago
The complexity re George Floyd though is that he was not the first man to die in such circumstances – knee on neck resulting in death – so when this was pointed out by many as being unique it wasn’t. Google the whiteTony Timpa.
“Video of Dallas police pinning a man to the ground for more than 13 minutes until he loses consciousness and dies has been made public after a years-long legal battle. Tony Timpa, 32, died in August 2016 as he was restrained by three police officers in a Dallas parking lot. Timpa had called 911 to say he had come off his medication for schizophrenia and depression and needed help. In the bodycam video, finally obtained by the Dallas Morning News, Timpa, who had been handcuffed by store security guards, is pinned to the ground in a prone position with a knee on his back as he pleads with police to release him. “You’re going to kill me!” Timpa shouts repeatedly. The three officers laugh and joke as they restrain Timpa on the ground. One officer mocks Timpa as a “roly-poly”. As he becomes unresponsive, with his face in the grass, the officers joke that he has fallen asleep. When Timpa finally stops moving, the trio continue their mockery.” and further: “Three police officers were indicted on charges of misdemeanor deadly conduct, according to the 2017 police press release and court records. The indictments were handed down more than a year after Timpa’s death and three months after The Dallas Morning News published its investigation into the death. On March 18, the Dallas County District Attorney’s office dismissed the charges, saying the decision was made following a lengthy investigation into the official cause of death and a discussion with three medical examiners.” Yet the BBC and MSM – despite knowing the comparison – never said anything. I put in a complaint – after 4 months I was given the option of taking it further but realised it wasn’t worth it. However I think that what happened to Tony Timpa should be more widely known. There were no demonstrations after what had happened to him.
Starry Gordon
3 years ago
‘The elevation of martyrs in any society, however, is also a sign that the existing political conversation has broken down. The forces of reason, pluralism, legality and democracy are fractured’.
I doubt if they are any more fractured than they usually are. A considerable portion of human interaction is not and seldom if ever has been rational, pluralistic, legal, or democratic. However, the elevation of martyrs is certainly a form of political conversation and, if effective, can be called rational. In the case of George Floyd, it was certainly effective; numerous people outside his racial community went into the streets as a result of it, that is, in communicated its complaint to the public generally and probably even to the most benighted of its rulers and leaders. As a result there may be an improvement, if only temporary, in police behavior, and thousands, maybe millions of mostly young people are now attuned to the proposition that police brutality, especially along racial lines, is not a good thing. More fundamental progress will require more constructive tactics, but stepping away from a corrupt established order is a start.
As for the persecuted Christians, I suppose they are stand-ins for colonialism among the violently ignorant and stupid, of whom there seem to be many everywhere. Their martyrdom will at least accelerate the decline of Islam.
Didn’t Floyd die of a drug overdose. Rather than suffocation? Sure, the cop acted badly. But wasn’t the man already dead from 3 times a lethal dose?
He did indeed die primarily of a drug overdose. Moreover, my understanding is that he forced his way out of the cop car on the grounds of something between suffocation and claustrophobia. Apparently this is when he said ‘I can’t breathe’, but I am not 100% sure on that. He then asked the the cops to lay him on the ground. Perhaps the cop – and this particular cop should probably have been fired some time ago, but he was in a Democrat city so uselessness is the governing MO – should not have put his knee on this shoulder. But had he not done so, there was every chance that Floyd would have attempted to flee.
there is a video in which he says “I can’t breathe” before exiting the vehicle. On that video, onlookers can be heard saying things like “dude, stop resisting” and similar things. The deaths was totally avoidable, but that’s a separate matter from how the incident has been portrayed. And when the officers are acquitted – because charging anyone with murder guarantees that – there will be more rioting.
Not acquitted, 3rd degree murder charge dismissed, 2nd degree murder charge still stands.
Utter tripe, he was killed by a fat cop kneeling on his neck for close to 4 minutes.
Nope. According to two autopsies (which I took the time to read) he died of asphyxiation – i.e. not enough oxygen to the brain. Also Floyd had 10 nanograms per ml fentanyl in his blood which would have been enough to anaesthetise not kill.
Watching the bodycam footage it is possible either the knee on the neck or the pressure on the chest plus some effect from the drugs in his system or a combination of all three was responsible for the asphyxiation.
Virtually all of the footage comes with some commentators lurid misinterpretation, but looking past all that you see much more than the viral video. I can’t give you a blow-by-blow account because I’d be typing all night. There is huge amounts of misinformation though, which simply reading the autopsies will disabuse you of.
At the same time you can make up your own mind how much pain an anaesthetised man was in, or how claustrophobic he was when just got out of another car was. Still, his distress is palpable, and apart from going stiff and making like a cat refusing to go through a catflap he doesn’t get violent. He is not a well or organised individual, but neither am I sometimes, and I don’t want to be crushed to death by law enforcement.
Although the bodycam footage is revealing about the behaviour of Floyd and the officers, it is impossible to divine motive from all of the video put together. Chauvin’s behaviour in particular is odd, he seems to be intently concentrating on a medical case and making really bad calls despite intervention from his fellow officers. The crowd were definitely complicating affairs, possibly causing time dilation, and at one crucial point we go from the crowd talking rubbish having made up their mind about stuff they don’t know, and then actually haveing more information about Floyd’s state than the police but not being able to get it across. Most people have made up their minds based on one particular onlooker’s voice over on the original viral video to decide motive, and that onlooker had decided motive within seconds of Floyd being laid on the ground, and with no real picture of the entire situation.
However, either the police practice was woefully inadequate due to departmental policy or policy wasn’t followed. They should have gotten their weight off him the moment he became unresponsive, in fact one officer suggests that they roll him on his side at about 6 minutes in, and Chauvin says no. Very bad decision. Two minutes later the ambulance turns up.
So either the police department through bad policy or Chauvin from not following policy was responsible for Floyd’s death. I can’t divine motive or lack of it.
On the 18th November last, BBC 1 broadcast a much heralded interview between the black TV Historian, Professor David Olusoga and the sainted one, President emeritus, Obama.
Early in the interview Obama referred to the
“murder of “George Floyd”. Olusoga did not challenge that as yet unproven allegation, and in bovine fashion, said nothing.
If such blatant falsehoods past unchallenged, by these two individuals what hope is there?
Floyd George knew my father, my father knew Floyd George.
‘The forces of reason, pluralism, legality and democracy are fractured’.
For 15 years now I have described modern Britain as a land devoid of all reason, morality or justice. With each passing day, my diagnosis is further vindicated.
Ah, but what is the solution?
Indeed a solution that will keep everybody happy?
There isn’t one. Periodically sceptics, such as myself, who prefer to reserve judgment as far as possible, are overwhelmed by ‘people of faith’. We are living through such a time now (cue the comparisons of Jeremy Corbyn with followers of ‘Jesus’ e.g. in the ‘Morning Star’).
It is, almost certainly, far too late for any ‘solution’.
The ‘martyrdom’ of militant Islamism is not *actively* rejected by the majority of Muslims. I do not see massive street demonstrations by Muslims around the world against these martyrs ““ I am more likely to see demonstrations in support. But the majority of Muslims in western countries, when asked, will express disagreement with the martyrdom concept so, yes, they could be *passively* rejecting it. Or they could be unwilling to express their thoughts publicly in a society that is hostile to those ideas, in the same way that many right-wingers feel they cannot openly express their opinions in western societies. It seems to me that there is a large pool of support out there and we are not going to see the end of this sort of martyrdom soon.
That the ‘martyrdom’ of islamist terrorists is rejected by their community is an idea continuously being pushed around by Western ‘experts’ who believe they know islam better than the islamists. On the contrary- islamist terrorists are universally revered by their families and acquire celebrity status in their communities. I am as yet to see the family of a muslim terrorist refer to him as a murderer of innocents rather than as a martyr defending his righteous faith. The recent cases from Pakistan, where islamic fanatics kill alleged blasphemers, ateists or even lawyers defending accused blasphemers in court, and who acquire celebrity status thereafter are perfect examples.
Fascinating article on a little discussed topic.
However, I find the author’s omission of any reference to Jewish martyrdom to be very peculiar. Surely, the elevation of the Christian martyr derives its power from Jewish piety/literature? Especially the critical years following the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus III (173-164 BC). At that period, immortality, let alone a resurrected afterlife, had not been the hope of the practising Jews. It was only after the revolt, that the heroes were idealized as martyrs, present in heaven before God.
Then the Jewish war (70 AD) added the memory of thousands more Jews who preferred to die rather than betray their Jewish faith. The revolt in Judea (130’s AD) added further martyrs to Jewish history, especially heroic scholars/teachers. In due course, the deaths of the early Jewish prophets become adorned with tales of painful martyrdom, a process which had already begun in the earliest days of Christianity.
Very interesting. I hadn’t imagined Christian Martyrdom had a precursor, but given that Christianity started with such a spectacular a martyrdom, something must have gone on before.
Why the “Jewish war (70 AD)” and only the “revolt in Judea (130’s AD)”.
As I understand it, the later was more severe? Are you perhaps slavishly following Josephus?
More like slavishly following Schürer, Fischel, Manson, and Lane Fox ! It was from my notes that I had jotted down a long time ago and IIRC he called it “the great revolt in Judaea of the 130’s”. From what I understand it has been called by several names: The Bar Kokhba revolt, Mered Bar Kokhba, the Third Jewish-Roman War, or the Third Jewish Revolt. You are right it was more severe.
The complexity re the martyrdom of George Floyd though is that he was not the first man to die in such circumstances – knee on neck resulting in death – so when this was pointed out by many as being unique it wasn’t. Google the whiteTony Timpa.
This from the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com…
“Video of Dallas police pinning a man to the ground for more than 13 minutes until he loses consciousness and dies has been made public after a years-long legal battle.
Tony Timpa, 32, died in August 2016 as he was restrained by three police officers in a Dallas parking lot. Timpa had called 911 to say he had come off his medication for schizophrenia and depression and needed help.
In the bodycam video, finally obtained by the Dallas Morning News, Timpa, who had been handcuffed by store security guards, is pinned to the ground in a prone position with a knee on his back as he pleads with police to release him.
“You’re going to kill me!” Timpa shouts repeatedly.
The three officers laugh and joke as they restrain Timpa on the ground. One officer mocks Timpa as a “roly-poly”. As he becomes unresponsive, with his face in the grass, the officers joke that he has fallen asleep. When Timpa finally stops moving, the trio continue their mockery.”
and further:
“Three police officers were indicted on charges of misdemeanor deadly conduct, according to the 2017 police press release and court records. The indictments were handed down more than a year after Timpa’s death and three months after The Dallas Morning News published its investigation into the death.
On March 18, the Dallas County District Attorney’s office dismissed the charges, saying the decision was made following a lengthy investigation into the official cause of death and a discussion with three medical examiners.”
Yet the BBC and MSM – despite knowing the comparison – never said anything.
I put in a complaint – after 4 months I was given the option of taking it further but realised it wasn’t worth it.
However I think that what happened to Tony Timpa should be more widely known. There were no demonstrations after what had happened to him. This should show that George Floyd was not unique and therefore not a BLM martyr.
Which really should not be such a surprise to us, after all careers as police officer, or corrections officer tend not to draw most heavily from the most altruistic and morally upstanding elements of our society. That they act brutishly to those they have power over is sad but ought not to be a complete surprise. That their misbehaviour is accepted as racist as a matter of course is both facile and unfair. We instead succumb to the superficiality of slogans and rabble rousing “activists” …
“As the questions grow harder and more complicated, people yearn for simpler answers, one-sentence answers, answers that point unhesitatingly to a culprit who can be blamed for all our suffering, answers that promise that if we only eradicate the villains, all our troubles will vanish.”
“• Amos Oz,
Great post by Jenny as usual. Unfortunately, in her narrative the progress from the martyrdom of St. Ignatius and other martyrs of the early Church to the murder of Thomas à Beckett and a Polish Catholic priest by the Communist government and a definition of martyrdom by Pope Benedict gives one the impression that Christian martyrdom has been largely a Roman Catholic thing. Although the martyrdom of Coptic Christians is mentioned afterwards, there is no specific mention of the Orthodox Church (i.e. the churches that are in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople). The year 1054 is generally agreed to be the year in which the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church became distinct entities.
St. Ignatius is recognized as a martyr by Orthodox Christians as well as Roman Catholics. As Jenny mentions, he was the bishop of Antioch. Antioch, along with Alexandria, Constantinople, and Jerusalem, was one of the patriarchates that would later define the Orthodox Church after the break with Rome. Vibia Perpetua and Felicity, martyrs of the early church, would also be recognized as martyrs of the Orthodox Church. Of course, Orthodox Christians do not accept Pope Benedict as an authority on who is and is not a martyr.
The number of Orthodox Christians who suffered martyrdom under Communist rule following the Bolshevik Revolution absolutely dwarfed the number of early Christians who suffered the same fate. There were probably more than 130 martyr-bishops and the number of martyr-priests would be in the tens of thousands. It was like a fulfillment of the prophecy of the 17th century Archpriest Avakum: “Satan has obtained our radiant Russia from God, that she may become red with the blood of martyrs.”
Interesting and timely article but “signage” in the last paragraph ? !!
Should have been ‘symbolism’, or is there something unacceptable about ‘symbolism’ these days ?
“the beleaguered Copts of Egypt, for example ” who can trace their Christian roots in the region back to 42 AD”
This seems an extraordinarily precise date for any event in the Christian world of the first century. What event or fact does it relate to? Most dates of events in the ‘Christian’ world at that time are no more than rough calculatons based on various timelines established by writings elsewhere e.g. those of Roman and Jewish historians, whose dates can be cross-checked against physical things like monuments, memorials etc. etc. Even the ‘crucifixion of Jesus ‘ cannot be tied down to a date. In my view there is significant doubt that Pontius PIlate was really involved, and even within Christian literature there are contrary claims e.g. one of the apocryphal Gospels claims that Jesus was ‘killed by the Jews’. This is not to say that such claims are more true, just that they exist.
As far as historians of the 1st C. are concerned Christianity is particularly difficult, because the source documents are undated (even the best calculations depend on carbon-dating, which can only narrow a dating down so much, before becoming slightly vague).
I don’t think the exact date is important.
But it is certainly true that Christianity pre dates Islam in large swathes of the near east.
Something to do with the Eastern Roman Empire?
“I don’t think the exact date is important.”
Well, in some ways it can be. It can reveal obvious pastiches or forgeries, revealing developmental incompatibilities. But I agree. A ’cause’, defined as one thing causing another in a sequential way, is often the most difficult thing to find in ‘history’, if in fact it can be identified at all. Single causes of that sort really don’t exist. NT scholars have learned to live with the uncertainties of chronology.
Old nick, of TQ 9 is the authority on that.
This is a calculation. By tradition, the Coptic Church in Egypt was begun by the apostle Mark, who stands in the same relationship to it as St Peter does to Rome. The generally accepted date of his arrival was 42AD, but as you say, we’re not even 100% sure of the exact date of the Crucifixion, so these things are estimates. What’s not in question is that it is and extremely ancient church and certainly dates from the decades following the death of Christ.
Yes, Unfortunately there is an unacknowledged aspect to tradition. Most of it is completely bogus. Whenever a historical enterprise tackles tradition in detail, the entire edifice starts to totter. This is what causes political wranglings over ‘justification’ by tradition. And so we find pointless discussions about ‘What exactly happened’. No history (however recent) is capable of stating this finally.
Yes, that’s the traditional attitude.
Well, good piece of wit, but it really isn’t. What evidence is there that a person/God called ‘Jesus’ was actually crucified at all. except using the claims of ‘believers’? So how can we relate other events chronologically when the actual starting point, usually ’33 AD’ is not even provable. And was there really a person called ‘Mark’, with a biography and life history well-known to contemporaries? None of this is certain in the least.
We don’t even know what type of documents the ‘Gospels’ were intended to be taken as when written. History? Myth? Bedtime story? Plays for acting out? etc. etc.
The reason for opposing the killing of Copts is that it is inhumane and barbarous now. The supposed antiquity of their ‘faith’ is beside the point.
That’s a reason for opposing killing anyone. And if you’re a mythicist, I’m not going to waste any time convincing you of the existence of the historical personage called “Jesus Christ”. The atheist scholar Bart Ehrman did that already. Read “Did Jesus Exist”.
What does it matter, the date? As for why we know someone called Jesus was crucified it is because if you were inventing a man out of whole cloth then why would you have him die the death of a criminal? Don’t be confused by the fact that later Christianity came to cope with that theologically, it was a problem at the start. The gospels were definitely meant as history.
The most interesting question is why Pilate was such a “woke” bedwetter, letting Christ off with a Friday afternoon crucifixion? When he should done at least Sunday to Wednesday, if ‘he’ was fit and healthy.
Had the Roman Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus, not been killed in battle at the early age of 31/32, Christianity might have been put back in its box, and would now be only of passing academic interest.
The complexity re George Floyd though is that he was not the first man to die in such circumstances – knee on neck resulting in death – so when this was pointed out by many as being unique it wasn’t. Google the whiteTony Timpa.
This from the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com…
“Video of Dallas police pinning a man to the ground for more than 13 minutes until he loses consciousness and dies has been made public after a years-long legal battle.
Tony Timpa, 32, died in August 2016 as he was restrained by three police officers in a Dallas parking lot. Timpa had called 911 to say he had come off his medication for schizophrenia and depression and needed help.
In the bodycam video, finally obtained by the Dallas Morning News, Timpa, who had been handcuffed by store security guards, is pinned to the ground in a prone position with a knee on his back as he pleads with police to release him.
“You’re going to kill me!” Timpa shouts repeatedly.
The three officers laugh and joke as they restrain Timpa on the ground. One officer mocks Timpa as a “roly-poly”. As he becomes unresponsive, with his face in the grass, the officers joke that he has fallen asleep. When Timpa finally stops moving, the trio continue their mockery.”
and further:
“Three police officers were indicted on charges of misdemeanor deadly conduct, according to the 2017 police press release and court records.
The indictments were handed down more than a year after Timpa’s death and three months after The Dallas Morning News published its investigation into the death.
On March 18, the Dallas County District Attorney’s office dismissed the charges, saying the decision was made following a lengthy investigation into the official cause of death and a discussion with three medical examiners.”
Yet the BBC and MSM – despite knowing the comparison – never said anything. I put in a complaint – after 4 months I was given the option of taking it further but realised it wasn’t worth it. However I think that what happened to Tony Timpa should be more widely known. There were no demonstrations after what had happened to him.
‘The elevation of martyrs in any society, however, is also a sign that the existing political conversation has broken down. The forces of reason, pluralism, legality and democracy are fractured’.
I doubt if they are any more fractured than they usually are. A considerable portion of human interaction is not and seldom if ever has been rational, pluralistic, legal, or democratic. However, the elevation of martyrs is certainly a form of political conversation and, if effective, can be called rational. In the case of George Floyd, it was certainly effective; numerous people outside his racial community went into the streets as a result of it, that is, in communicated its complaint to the public generally and probably even to the most benighted of its rulers and leaders. As a result there may be an improvement, if only temporary, in police behavior, and thousands, maybe millions of mostly young people are now attuned to the proposition that police brutality, especially along racial lines, is not a good thing. More fundamental progress will require more constructive tactics, but stepping away from a corrupt established order is a start.
As for the persecuted Christians, I suppose they are stand-ins for colonialism among the violently ignorant and stupid, of whom there seem to be many everywhere. Their martyrdom will at least accelerate the decline of Islam.