Lockdowns are tools for rich people to feel well about themselves and their “social awareness” at the expense of sacrificing the livelihoos of the poor.
In the West it’s not just the livilhoods of the poor, the lives of the poor and their quality of lives have all been sacrificed.
The deaths by occupation read pretty much like a class diagram. The relatively wealthy middle class have sat wfh in their nice large house, with nice gardens. Ordering shopping online and occasionally visiting the supermartkets. Meanwhile the poor have kept working in factories and essential retail, deliveries etc – massively increasing their risk.
Virtue signalling whilst gaining is always the best.
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Shutting down society is unworkable no matter the location. It’s not a strategy; it’s the govt maxim of “do something” to give the appearance of having a plan without bothering with one.
If there is some cause for optimism, it’s not in ordering people to stay at home again, but in the weather, and lessons learnt elsewhere, Touchton says. The northern hemisphere is coming out of summer, during which there was a drop off in infections, and now rates are going up again. It’s almost as if respiratory infections become more prevalent in colder weather. In other words, this anticipated respite will last until the weather changes again. What then?
You cannot lock people up indefinitely and you cannot insist on making masks and distancing the new norms. It’s not how people are wired. I’m sure there are govts who will try their best, much like removing shoes at airports has become standard nearly 20 years after one guy one time tried using sneakers as a bomb. That’s a policy without a purpose, and it’s not unreasonable to think that the people who came up with that one might come up with things that are even more useless.
“Shutting down society is unworkable no matter the location. It’s not a strategy…”
and your alternative is to do what…expedited mass burials and point out the upside of eliminating an entire segment of the population who are just drags on the economy anyway as detailed in the 2008 World Economic Forum’s paper “The Future of Pensions and Healthcare in a Rapidly Ageing World: Scenarios to 2030”
the opening sentences read…
“One of the most eminent challenges facing the world today is the ageing of our societies. The United Nations (2007) predicts that by 2050 the number of people aged 60 and older in developed countries will have increased from 21% today to 32%, and in the less-developed countries from 8% today to 20%.
“This will have profound implications for labour markets, aggregate demand, politics and societal structures. In addition, ageing societies will significantly challenge the affordability of traditional pension and healthcare systems.
New approaches and new solutions from both governments and the private sector are required.”
hey I know, lets unleash a virus that targets our elders…upwards of 80 percent of all deaths from the SARS-CoV-2 virus are comprised of those 65 and older.
So the only options, beyond the massive straw man you built, are wholesale lockdowns and mass deaths? Your own post points to the reality that people were aware of from the beginning – the old and the sick were always at highest risk. Please explain how shuttering businesses and schools does anything to change that.
and your alternative is to do what. Focus on areas where the problem is most acute perhaps? That’s not schools. It’s not bars and restaurants, either. It starts with elder care facilities, then moves to hospitals, and it entails a fair amount of stressing that individuals need to be pro-active in managing their own risks.
By your reckoning, the increase in overdoses, abuse cases, bankruptcies, divorces, deaths, and unemployment is worth it if grandpa gets to live six more weeks. In the US, 94% of the deaths were people who died with Covid, not because of it.
the straw man you reference is a document created by the World Economic Forum conveners of the four day orgy in Davos.
the wholesale lockdowns and increasing fatalities are result of you and your science deniers who have argued since February the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic is a fraud.
and you save the best for last”your self identification as a willfully ignorant science denier.
“In the US, 94% of the deaths were people who died with Covid, not because of it.”
It would be interesting to know what has happened in Nicaragua. Back in March and April, their strategy for limiting Covid-19 was to hold street parties rather than lockdowns (as the rest of the world scoffed). According to official statistics, however, they’ve actually come out quite well with very few deaths. Why is that? Why is the media so incurious?
You’re right about the media being incurious. I have been disturbed by the inability to look more deeply. I hadn’t heard about Nicaragua. Do you have any information you could point me to?
Not that I can’t sympathize with the Nicaraguan approach, i.e. avoiding a lockdown, but I suspect that the low figures have a rather simple explanation: not to be hypnotized by the pandemic, let live go on and not looking for a case under every stone. Life there is already difficult enough without adding on top all these destructive measures being imposed on the population in most countries worldwide, irrespective of the cost and the damage it is causing.
Admittedly I am not in Nicaragua, and maybe there is something miraculous going on there. I would certainly feel happy for them.
Having said this, I have been working in projects throughout Central America, and to my knowledge there is no difference between the countries, at least not the poorer ones, that could explain such different figures. Nicaragua does have a lower population density and is less urbanized than neighbouring countries, but that is valid as well for Belize, which does not have as optimistic figures. I could not really imagine other reasons.
stephensjpriest
3 years ago
Dear Unherd
Pfizer’s former Chief Scientific Advisor Dr Mike Yeadon believes 50% of the population was already immune to Covid-19 by the time infection rates reduced in June.
Speaking with talkRADIO’s Ian Collins, he said: “Our bodies have experience of common cold-causing coronavirus which of course the BBC didn’t bother to tell you about.”
It comes after the goal of securing a Covid-19 vaccine moved a step closer with early data showing a new jab to be almost 95% effective in protecting against the virus.
A quick and dirty calculation is to use the IFR and number of deaths. It suggests between 25-33 million infections and therefore using the higher number 50% of the population have been infected and therefore have some immunity. That’s without considering natural and cross immunity
thanks for explains why Dr Mike Yeado is Pfizer’s former Chief Scientific Advisor
Frederik van Beek
3 years ago
The only problem in Latin America are the lockdowns, the virus is peanuts. Belgium has more death per capita than Peru, Spain has more death per capita than Brazil, so what’s the perspective of this article?
said a member of an echo chamber turning up the reverb.
Daryl Jones
3 years ago
Real lockdowns work if you do them for a month straight and shoot anyone who leaves their house for any reason.
Any measure that is not 100%, such as pseudo-lockdown, masks, test and trace, simply delays the spread, and prolongs the pandemic. The longer the pandemic, the more total will die from the virus, as the vulnerable have more potential exposure. They can’t hide forever.
The current strategy is to prolong the pandemic, and expose the vulnerable in equal proportion to those who are less vulnerable. We are told everyone is at equal risk.
Ideally, you would first expose the less vulnerable, so they can no longer spread to the vulnerable, but then you are told you want to kill people. We tell college kids they are selfishly spreading the virus among themselves, when actually they are becoming immune so they can’t infect the elderly.
Rulers like to rule, and issue orders, and tell us how they saved us. Followers like to follow and feel afraid, then feel warm and fuzzy when told how their rulers saved them.
Of course, lockdowns can only happen when someone prints money to pay people to not work. The money printers love to print money, and exert their power.
And the media makes money off fear and more ratings.
Public health officials like to wage war on the virus, without considering collateral damage or unintended consequences, just like military leaders like war – it is what they do, and they want to be heroes.
The authors of the Great Barrington Declaration are seen as a threat, because their strategy would shorten the pandemic.
So expect this whole thing to continue as long as possible, and many more to die. By the time the vaccine is effective, won’t be many left that need protection.
Andy Whiteman
3 years ago
I live in Costa Rica. So far we have had 1134 deaths and 91780 cases.
Costa Rica has the 13th-most new cases per 100,000 residents over the past seven days, according to data compiled by The New York Times.
About 1.2% of people who tested positive for the coronavirus in Costa Rica have died. The deaths comprise 380 adults and 754 elderly adults.
The average age of Costa Rica’s coronavirus-related deaths is 70 years.
Our population is roughly 5M. If you compare us with say, the UK population of 60M our number of deaths would be 13608.
So we are doing OK so far. We have not had a lock down. We did close our borders for 6months to tourists. They opened again on November 1st. We have had a driving curfew and restricted driving on the weekend. The beaches were sort of closed for 6 months.
We shall have to see what happens over the next months with the arrival of Tourists. I run a small hospitality business. I’m going to be super careful as I’m 72.
and, despite what the headline suggests, Costa Rica as well as a number of other nations in South and Central America has a robust health care system.
marcellofpe
3 years ago
No, not true. The majority of us Brazilians have all kinds of jobs and not “informal jobs such as cleaning houses or selling snacks on the street” . Just google Sao Paulo to know a bit about my city. Also, Bolsonaro is a great president and his popularity is rising. Finally, the economic impact was huge, but we are recovering and it is expected positive GDP by the end of 2020.
Fran Martinez
3 years ago
And Brazil is not the one hit the hardest, Peru and Argentina have more deaths per capita.
Laura Pritchard
3 years ago
What a tragic story. One thing however, you mention the weather at the end of the article but your references to second waves etc utilise a Northern Hemisphere understanding of the rhythm of infectious diseases. I’d actually be interested to know 1) did South America get hit hard because it was going into winter 2) who is actually getting sick? It might not be those getting out of the house, staying healthy and maybe staying away from heavily air conditioned or heated environments. Whilst the effects of lock downs on the poor are pretty clear and your point about third world health systems and first world health problems is stark, communities that are used to building immunity and coping with hardship might not be the Covid statistics or at least not the death rates. Some detail without assumption would be interesting.
Phil Bolton
3 years ago
Another issue in South America is that there is far more suspicion of the hospitals and health systems there. There are many rumours of people dying in hospitals unnecessarily which makes the general public avoid hospitals and try to manage the virus from home and consequently not getting proper treatment. Healthcare workers are frequently attacked as they are seen as promoting the spread rather than preventing. All very sad.
I’m fairly sure the UK government’s policy of clearing the hospitals and sending CV19+ patients into care homes took care of the “hurry up and die already” strategy. It also helpfully created a mortality spike that can forever be pointed to as justification for more lockdowns.
A quick glance at the mortality from countries who instead protected people in care homes from the outset tells it’s own story; much, much lower mortality.
And of course, in the UK, the average age of CV19+ deaths is around 82.
Which should take us back to the matter of lockdowns; lockdowns alone do not protect the elderly. As has been seen in Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales.
Michael Cowling
3 years ago
Lockdowns do work, but only if they are short and people who need financial help get it so that they can stay at home without starving. China is an example; so are Vietnam and Victoria. Taking South American lockdowns as examples and drawing general conclusions from them is not very sound.
Nun Yerbizness
3 years ago
Again with the eye candy click bait from the publishers of Unherd.
Nun Yerbizness
3 years ago
so the author would have us believe the problem is “the lockdown” not mind numbing poverty and a complete absence of healthcare in much of South America.
What kind of genius could have foreseen this?
Lockdowns are tools for rich people to feel well about themselves and their “social awareness” at the expense of sacrificing the livelihoos of the poor.
congratulations. best job of turning reality upside down on any of these threads so far, and you are up against some stiff competition.
In the West it’s not just the livilhoods of the poor, the lives of the poor and their quality of lives have all been sacrificed.
The deaths by occupation read pretty much like a class diagram. The relatively wealthy middle class have sat wfh in their nice large house, with nice gardens. Ordering shopping online and occasionally visiting the supermartkets. Meanwhile the poor have kept working in factories and essential retail, deliveries etc – massively increasing their risk.
Virtue signalling whilst gaining is always the best.
Shutting down society is unworkable no matter the location. It’s not a strategy; it’s the govt maxim of “do something” to give the appearance of having a plan without bothering with one.
If there is some cause for optimism, it’s not in ordering people to stay at home again, but in the weather, and lessons learnt elsewhere, Touchton says.
The northern hemisphere is coming out of summer, during which there was a drop off in infections, and now rates are going up again. It’s almost as if respiratory infections become more prevalent in colder weather. In other words, this anticipated respite will last until the weather changes again. What then?
You cannot lock people up indefinitely and you cannot insist on making masks and distancing the new norms. It’s not how people are wired. I’m sure there are govts who will try their best, much like removing shoes at airports has become standard nearly 20 years after one guy one time tried using sneakers as a bomb. That’s a policy without a purpose, and it’s not unreasonable to think that the people who came up with that one might come up with things that are even more useless.
“Shutting down society is unworkable no matter the location. It’s not a strategy…”
and your alternative is to do what…expedited mass burials and point out the upside of eliminating an entire segment of the population who are just drags on the economy anyway as detailed in the 2008 World Economic Forum’s paper “The Future of Pensions and Healthcare in a Rapidly Ageing World: Scenarios to 2030”
the opening sentences read…
“One of the most eminent challenges facing the world today is the ageing of our societies. The United Nations (2007) predicts that by 2050 the number of people aged 60 and older in developed countries will have increased from 21% today to 32%, and in the less-developed countries from 8% today to 20%.
“This will have profound implications for labour markets, aggregate demand, politics and societal structures. In addition, ageing societies will significantly challenge the affordability of traditional pension and healthcare systems.
New approaches and new solutions from both governments and the private sector are required.”
hey I know, lets unleash a virus that targets our elders…upwards of 80 percent of all deaths from the SARS-CoV-2 virus are comprised of those 65 and older.
So the only options, beyond the massive straw man you built, are wholesale lockdowns and mass deaths? Your own post points to the reality that people were aware of from the beginning – the old and the sick were always at highest risk. Please explain how shuttering businesses and schools does anything to change that.
and your alternative is to do what.
Focus on areas where the problem is most acute perhaps? That’s not schools. It’s not bars and restaurants, either. It starts with elder care facilities, then moves to hospitals, and it entails a fair amount of stressing that individuals need to be pro-active in managing their own risks.
By your reckoning, the increase in overdoses, abuse cases, bankruptcies, divorces, deaths, and unemployment is worth it if grandpa gets to live six more weeks. In the US, 94% of the deaths were people who died with Covid, not because of it.
the straw man you reference is a document created by the World Economic Forum conveners of the four day orgy in Davos.
the wholesale lockdowns and increasing fatalities are result of you and your science deniers who have argued since February the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic is a fraud.
and you save the best for last”your self identification as a willfully ignorant science denier.
“In the US, 94% of the deaths were people who died with Covid, not because of it.”
By your reckoning your solution is for our elders to hurry up and die already.
Well spotted from Mt Hood.
It would be interesting to know what has happened in Nicaragua. Back in March and April, their strategy for limiting Covid-19 was to hold street parties rather than lockdowns (as the rest of the world scoffed). According to official statistics, however, they’ve actually come out quite well with very few deaths. Why is that? Why is the media so incurious?
You’re right about the media being incurious. I have been disturbed by the inability to look more deeply. I hadn’t heard about Nicaragua. Do you have any information you could point me to?
Worldometers
Nicaragua, population 6.5m, C-19 deaths 158.
Average age in Nicaragua 24, in UK 40.
Therefore fewer Coffin Dodgers perhaps.
Hurricane Iota roars onto Nicaragua as 2nd blow in 2 weeks
MARLON GONZÃLEZ,
Associated Press
Nov. 17, 2020
eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
Not that I can’t sympathize with the Nicaraguan approach, i.e.
avoiding a lockdown, but I suspect that the low figures have a rather simple explanation: not to be hypnotized by the pandemic, let live go on and not looking for a case under every stone. Life there is already difficult enough without adding on top all these destructive measures being imposed on the population in most countries worldwide, irrespective of the cost and the damage it is causing.
Admittedly I am not in Nicaragua, and maybe there is something miraculous going on there. I would certainly feel happy for them.
Having said this, I have been working in projects throughout Central America, and to my knowledge there is no difference between the countries, at least not the poorer ones, that could explain such different figures. Nicaragua does have a lower population density and is less urbanized than neighbouring countries, but that is valid as well for Belize, which does not have as optimistic figures. I could not really imagine other
reasons.
Dear Unherd
Pfizer’s former Chief Scientific Advisor Dr Mike Yeadon believes 50% of the population was already immune to Covid-19 by the time infection rates reduced in June.
Speaking with talkRADIO’s Ian Collins, he said: “Our bodies have experience of common cold-causing coronavirus which of course the BBC didn’t bother to tell you about.”
It comes after the goal of securing a Covid-19 vaccine moved a step closer with early data showing a new jab to be almost 95% effective in protecting against the virus.
YOu Tube watch?v=DZjtiqujql8
really?
A quick and dirty calculation is to use the IFR and number of deaths. It suggests between 25-33 million infections and therefore using the higher number 50% of the population have been infected and therefore have some immunity.
That’s without considering natural and cross immunity
thanks for explains why Dr Mike Yeado is Pfizer’s former Chief Scientific Advisor
The only problem in Latin America are the lockdowns, the virus is peanuts. Belgium has more death per capita than Peru, Spain has more death per capita than Brazil, so what’s the perspective of this article?
and yet another QAnon’s spokesperson weighs in.
and thanks to you down voters for self identifying as QAnon whack jobs.
Nun I can only identify one whack job on this thread. Are you drinking too much coffee again?
said a member of an echo chamber turning up the reverb.
Real lockdowns work if you do them for a month straight and shoot anyone who leaves their house for any reason.
Any measure that is not 100%, such as pseudo-lockdown, masks, test and trace, simply delays the spread, and prolongs the pandemic. The longer the pandemic, the more total will die from the virus, as the vulnerable have more potential exposure. They can’t hide forever.
The current strategy is to prolong the pandemic, and expose the vulnerable in equal proportion to those who are less vulnerable. We are told everyone is at equal risk.
Ideally, you would first expose the less vulnerable, so they can no longer spread to the vulnerable, but then you are told you want to kill people. We tell college kids they are selfishly spreading the virus among themselves, when actually they are becoming immune so they can’t infect the elderly.
Rulers like to rule, and issue orders, and tell us how they saved us. Followers like to follow and feel afraid, then feel warm and fuzzy when told how their rulers saved them.
Of course, lockdowns can only happen when someone prints money to pay people to not work. The money printers love to print money, and exert their power.
And the media makes money off fear and more ratings.
Public health officials like to wage war on the virus, without considering collateral damage or unintended consequences, just like military leaders like war – it is what they do, and they want to be heroes.
The authors of the Great Barrington Declaration are seen as a threat, because their strategy would shorten the pandemic.
So expect this whole thing to continue as long as possible, and many more to die. By the time the vaccine is effective, won’t be many left that need protection.
I live in Costa Rica. So far we have had 1134 deaths and 91780 cases.
Costa Rica has the 13th-most new cases per 100,000 residents over the past seven days, according to data compiled by The New York Times.
About 1.2% of people who tested positive for the coronavirus in Costa
Rica have died. The deaths comprise 380 adults and 754 elderly adults.
The average age of Costa Rica’s coronavirus-related deaths is 70 years.
Our population is roughly 5M. If you compare us with say, the UK population of 60M our number of deaths would be 13608.
So we are doing OK so far. We have not had a lock down. We did close our borders for 6months to tourists. They opened again on November 1st. We have had a driving curfew and restricted driving on the weekend. The beaches were sort of closed for 6 months.
We shall have to see what happens over the next months with the arrival of Tourists. I run a small hospitality business. I’m going to be super careful as I’m 72.
Pura Vida.
and, despite what the headline suggests, Costa Rica as well as a number of other nations in South and Central America has a robust health care system.
No, not true. The majority of us Brazilians have all kinds of jobs and not “informal jobs such as cleaning houses or selling snacks on the street” . Just google Sao Paulo to know a bit about my city.
Also, Bolsonaro is a great president and his popularity is rising. Finally, the economic impact was huge, but we are recovering and it is expected positive GDP by the end of 2020.
And Brazil is not the one hit the hardest, Peru and Argentina have more deaths per capita.
What a tragic story. One thing however, you mention the weather at the end of the article but your references to second waves etc utilise a Northern Hemisphere understanding of the rhythm of infectious diseases. I’d actually be interested to know
1) did South America get hit hard because it was going into winter
2) who is actually getting sick? It might not be those getting out of the house, staying healthy and maybe staying away from heavily air conditioned or heated environments. Whilst the effects of lock downs on the poor are pretty clear and your point about third world health systems and first world health problems is stark, communities that are used to building immunity and coping with hardship might not be the Covid statistics or at least not the death rates.
Some detail without assumption would be interesting.
Another issue in South America is that there is far more suspicion of the hospitals and health systems there. There are many rumours of people dying in hospitals unnecessarily which makes the general public avoid hospitals and try to manage the virus from home and consequently not getting proper treatment. Healthcare workers are frequently attacked as they are seen as promoting the spread rather than preventing. All very sad.
In the UK we are very good at keeping news of unnecessary deaths in hospital quiet
What role does natural immunity play in state plans to reduce overall health and economic impacts to countries ravaged from foolish and evil policies?
“…health and economic impacts to countries ravaged from foolish and evil policies?”
more right wing extremist provocation or have you specifics in mind?
the consensus of those commenting on this thread is clearly a message to our elders””Hurry up and die already!”
I’m fairly sure the UK government’s policy of clearing the hospitals and sending CV19+ patients into care homes took care of the “hurry up and die already” strategy. It also helpfully created a mortality spike that can forever be pointed to as justification for more lockdowns.
A quick glance at the mortality from countries who instead protected people in care homes from the outset tells it’s own story; much, much lower mortality.
And of course, in the UK, the average age of CV19+ deaths is around 82.
Which should take us back to the matter of lockdowns; lockdowns alone do not protect the elderly. As has been seen in Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales.
Lockdowns do work, but only if they are short and people who need financial help get it so that they can stay at home without starving. China is an example; so are Vietnam and Victoria. Taking South American lockdowns as examples and drawing general conclusions from them is not very sound.
Again with the eye candy click bait from the publishers of Unherd.
so the author would have us believe the problem is “the lockdown” not mind numbing poverty and a complete absence of healthcare in much of South America.