There is one area where modern observers have a distinct advantage over observers living in Classical antiquity. It is the ability to clearly interpret the genetic record, extending through the Bronze Age Collapse into the Copper Age, where Classical oral histories stop.
Several thousand years in retrospect, the genetic record is obvious: the story of the Bronze Age is one of Indo-Europeans (and off-shoot Anatolian cultures) descending on the highly-coveted Mediterranean Basin, and either creating, conquering or co-opting every civilization in the region.
The Persians and Greeks were two Indo-European offshoots, each worshiping their respective “King among King” Sky Gods, and were products from different migrations and local admixtures. Since Christianity was mentioned in the comments, it is worth noting the Bible is basically the recounting of an early, regional Levantine people ” the Jews ” being steadily washed over by the Indo-European migrations, until their culture and religion was completely transformed.
If the Greeks had been subjugated by the Persians, it would have created a power vacuum for other Indo-European groups to fill. It’s likely that the Central Mediterranean cultures would have developed earlier. Not sure the end result would be that different.
This is an amazing article, and it’s always cool to imagine alternative realities. But, the account of what actually happened is missing one key element: the “hand of God” (at the risk of being dramatic) on and over everything that has ever happened in the world He created. *It’s significant that the absence of Christianity and Judaism in the alt-reality is barely mentioned in passing, especially since the Jews were spread all over the Mediterranean region, and since Persia had a significant part in restoring the Jews to their homeland of Israel. All of this set the stage for the birth of Jesus Christ at the “zero” point between BC and AD, and then, as the Gospel message of His death and resurrection spread in the Mediterranean world (and further), the impact on every nation and culture was profound. 2020 years later we take the presence of Christian faith for granted (even if some scoffers try to negate the actual existence of Jesus). ***So I’ll simply repeat that the great story told in this article is horribly incomplete without a mention of the impact of Jesus.
Surely, no Christian would deny the debt that Christianity owes to the Ancient world. The existence of the Roman Empire made the rapid spread of Christianity within it possible. The New Testament is written, not in Hebrew like the Old Testament, but in Greek. For that matter, the Greeks didn’t build their civilization up from nothing, but recognized their own debt to ancient Egypt. Rick was just making the point that Tom, when considering an alternative history, might have made some mention of the Holy Land.
” Surely, no Christian would deny the debt that Christianity owes to the Ancient world. “
I agree with what you say, but it is interesting that the first five books of The Bible were written down 1200 – 800 BC and were probably passed on orally for hundreds of years before that. I am not an expert on Ancient History or the Classics by any means, but I cannot help wondering if the Greeks were influenced by Jewish sacred thought to some degree. Perhaps it is only possible to speculate, I don’t know.
I am sorry but I don’t agree. The first five lines of Mr Ludwig’s rant/polemic told me he was a religious nutter!
Mr Holland’s piece has nothing to do with Christianity and Faith, and everything to do with Athens and Reason (logos).
Frankly counter factual history is the land of fantasy and very little else.
Mark Melvin
3 years ago
Really great article, thanks very much. This is why I read Unherd. Cheers!
david bewick
3 years ago
The standard of politician is worrying and in the opposition party frightening. I can’t imagine any circumstances where I would consider joining the ranks. The media is absolutely responsible for much of it and in particular broadcast media where we see journalistic pygmies with a sensationalist and gotcha agenda. It’s worrying when we see the likes of Cathy Newman from Channel 4 say that her job is “to nail politicians.” It is also absolutely true that a lot of responsibility lies with the first Blair administration. Much of how they operated was brought back from a visit to the Clinton campaign by Blair, Campbell and Mandelson and disappointingly no subsequent government has seen fit to decentralise. Ken Clarke’s memoirs are interesting on the differences from being a cabinet minister under Thatcher and later under Cameron. Replace these names with Johnson, Cummings and Gove perhaps? Much of what they want to do with the civil service was touted by the Labour three.
aemiliuspaullus
3 years ago
Very interesting article. Have always thought that geography and the structure of the polis must have played a role in the development of Greek democracy. Can’t imagine a political system like Athens developing in China or India as the distances were too vast and Greek style democracy depended on face to face contact.
What a fascinating article, thank you.
There is one area where modern observers have a distinct advantage over observers living in Classical antiquity. It is the ability to clearly interpret the genetic record, extending through the Bronze Age Collapse into the Copper Age, where Classical oral histories stop.
Several thousand years in retrospect, the genetic record is obvious: the story of the Bronze Age is one of Indo-Europeans (and off-shoot Anatolian cultures) descending on the highly-coveted Mediterranean Basin, and either creating, conquering or co-opting every civilization in the region.
The Persians and Greeks were two Indo-European offshoots, each worshiping their respective “King among King” Sky Gods, and were products from different migrations and local admixtures. Since Christianity was mentioned in the comments, it is worth noting the Bible is basically the recounting of an early, regional Levantine people ” the Jews ” being steadily washed over by the Indo-European migrations, until their culture and religion was completely transformed.
If the Greeks had been subjugated by the Persians, it would have created a power vacuum for other Indo-European groups to fill. It’s likely that the Central Mediterranean cultures would have developed earlier. Not sure the end result would be that different.
Interesting, thank you.
This is an amazing article, and it’s always cool to imagine alternative realities. But, the account of what actually happened is missing one key element: the “hand of God” (at the risk of being dramatic) on and over everything that has ever happened in the world He created. *It’s significant that the absence of Christianity and Judaism in the alt-reality is barely mentioned in passing, especially since the Jews were spread all over the Mediterranean region, and since Persia had a significant part in restoring the Jews to their homeland of Israel. All of this set the stage for the birth of Jesus Christ at the “zero” point between BC and AD, and then, as the Gospel message of His death and resurrection spread in the Mediterranean world (and further), the impact on every nation and culture was profound. 2020 years later we take the presence of Christian faith for granted (even if some scoffers try to negate the actual existence of Jesus). ***So I’ll simply repeat that the great story told in this article is horribly incomplete without a mention of the impact of Jesus.
If you want the ‘God stuff’ you should refer to Mr Holland’s recent tome ‘Dominion’.
For the rest of us ‘Devout Sceptics’ or “scoffers” as you would have it, all this happened nearly five centuries before the arrival of JC & Co.
Athens and later Rome were the founders of “Western Civilisation”, JC and his Hebrew chums were somewhat parvenu, in the scheme of things.
Surely, no Christian would deny the debt that Christianity owes to the Ancient world. The existence of the Roman Empire made the rapid spread of Christianity within it possible. The New Testament is written, not in Hebrew like the Old Testament, but in Greek. For that matter, the Greeks didn’t build their civilization up from nothing, but recognized their own debt to ancient Egypt. Rick was just making the point that Tom, when considering an alternative history, might have made some mention of the Holy Land.
” Surely, no Christian would deny the debt that Christianity owes to the Ancient world. “
I agree with what you say, but it is interesting that the first five books of The Bible were written down 1200 – 800 BC and were probably passed on orally for hundreds of years before that. I am not an expert on Ancient History or the Classics by any means, but I cannot help wondering if the Greeks were influenced by Jewish sacred thought to some degree. Perhaps it is only possible to speculate, I don’t know.
I am sorry but I don’t agree. The first five lines of Mr Ludwig’s rant/polemic told me he was a religious nutter!
Mr Holland’s piece has nothing to do with Christianity and Faith, and everything to do with Athens and Reason (logos).
Frankly counter factual history is the land of fantasy and very little else.
Really great article, thanks very much. This is why I read Unherd. Cheers!
The standard of politician is worrying and in the opposition party frightening. I can’t imagine any circumstances where I would consider joining the ranks. The media is absolutely responsible for much of it and in particular broadcast media where we see journalistic pygmies with a sensationalist and gotcha agenda. It’s worrying when we see the likes of Cathy Newman from Channel 4 say that her job is “to nail politicians.”
It is also absolutely true that a lot of responsibility lies with the first Blair administration. Much of how they operated was brought back from a visit to the Clinton campaign by Blair, Campbell and Mandelson and disappointingly no subsequent government has seen fit to decentralise. Ken Clarke’s memoirs are interesting on the differences from being a cabinet minister under Thatcher and later under Cameron.
Replace these names with Johnson, Cummings and Gove perhaps? Much of what they want to do with the civil service was touted by the Labour three.
Very interesting article. Have always thought that geography and the structure of the polis must have played a role in the development of Greek democracy. Can’t imagine a political system like Athens developing in China or India as the distances were too vast and Greek style democracy depended on face to face contact.