“And that leaves the English with a sense of national identity that has been sold in myth and legend for 800 years, but no government of their own”
Who says our identity is based on myth and legend? The English State is over 1000 years old, the creation of the Wessex kings who spearheaded a 10th century reconquista of the lands conquered by the Danes(with Mercian assistance of course). The Chronicler in 1016 writes of “all the people of England”, the whole English nation when referring to resistance to further Danish incursions.
English identity survived the dreadful trauma of the Norman Conquest, and re-emerged during the 14th Century flowering in the Elizabethan Age – that’s no legend, no myth
Andrew Wood
3 years ago
‘It might even have stayed in the European Union.’ A confederation as described would not have had the means to win the world wars in the 20th century, so there would have been no European Union to join, just Greater Germany managing everyone.
Imagine then that a German-ruled UK would have had less than 8000 of its citizen having died of Covid-19 instead of 44 000.:-)
Louise Henson
3 years ago
John wasn’t England’s worst ever King. That was Edward II who did nothing good, caused a civil war, left nothing of value and has the unique distinction of having been defeated by the Scots. John fought the barons but gave justice to those who were no threat to him and gave many towns their charters which allowed them to grow rich and influential.
This is a bit pointless. Coulda, woulda, shoulda………In the last 800 years all sorts of things could have happened to your hypothetical Union of the British Isles, it might for example have been conquered by foreign powers, it might have engaged in endless wars between its members, who knows? It’s impossible to say
I agree. All these speculative attempts at alternative histories are always rather pointless.
K Jam
3 years ago
Ms. MacKenzie’s writing is longer than the Magna Carta itself, while still missing the entire point of the document. Very specifically, the Magna Carta ” in its first 10 clauses ” states the Church, the King, and Jewish lenders should not impoverish middle-class people. In 1215 terms, this entailed orphans and widows, and further serves as the foundation of modern Anglo concepts of freedom.
The Magna Carta is a perfect metaphor for our usurious times, where younger, middle-class people are financially destroyed by the establishment before the age of twenty-two.
It is a testament how revolutionary the Magna Carta was. It didn’t devolve into philosophical debates about freedom. Rather, it articulated the fundamental nature of freedom ” the ability to be free from hereditary usury, in all of its forms. Go ahead, try reading it for yourself sometime, Brits.
Peter KE
3 years ago
The woke left are anarchist and criminals bent on the destruction of our normal society. We need to strip all funding for the places at learning institutions and reduce access. Universities should be there for the general benefit of society not for a small self serving group bent on criminality.
Oh yes.. refund the pol—- the the universities. Cancel the institutions.😂
Seb Dakin
3 years ago
This article calls to mind the CS Lewis quote about tyranny:
‘Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals’
In fact, this whole ‘woke’ spasm society seems to be going through calls this quote to mind. CS Lewis hit the nail on the head, good and true.
Agree, entirely. 60 years ago I was exposed to the same sort of ideological nonsense but as a graduate student of what was then called political science I learned that, when attempts to change the way things are done by overthrowing the existing system, many lives are lost and it can take generations before sanity and political. justice are restored.
Vivek Rajkhowa
3 years ago
Seems a bit like wishful thinking, England hadn’t been divided since Anglo-Saxon times, why would the barons have decided to divide it now? Plus there isn’t any guarantee that no Magna Carta means some sort of baron confederacy, eventually the barons would push too far and there’d be a backlash against them, giving the Crown more power.
ray.wacks
3 years ago
An admirable analysis of the state of higher education and its malodorous influence on a generation of misguided, sanctimonious dunderheads.
jim payne
3 years ago
How glad am I to be an ordinary bloke! Uni sounds like one big drag. When I left school (1962) sex drugs and rock n roll was the thing.(Not much sex tho’). I use my phone to text/talk and occasionally get stupid stuff taking the rise out of everyone and every thing. How much simpler it is to be 74 and having as much fun as I can.
Colin Elliott
3 years ago
Thought-provoking hypothesising, but unlikely. I don’t actually see that England did dominate Wales and Scotland, the contributions from both of which are remarkable given their smaller size. Ireland, well, that’s more complicated….
stuuey
3 years ago
The academic establishment that has fomented this problem is no longer fit for purpose or even salvageable by normal management principles. My guess is that ‘the market’ will eventually come to the rescue with some new grass roots places of learning which might have to step back a century or so to pick up foundational education tenets like the old style universities. A quality education is now at a premium like never before…
Adrian Smith
3 years ago
All the young people I talk to seem to be interested in is drinking and shagging in exactly the same way I was when I was their age. When I mention BLM and cancel culture they are aware of it but don’t care about it.
I think the whole thing is just a small group of sad tossers, as Tobias now confesses he once was, making a disproportionate amount of noise.
“And that leaves the English with a sense of national identity that has been sold in myth and legend for 800 years, but no government of their own”
Who says our identity is based on myth and legend? The English State is over 1000 years old, the creation of the Wessex kings who spearheaded a 10th century reconquista of the lands conquered by the Danes(with Mercian assistance of course). The Chronicler in 1016 writes of “all the people of England”, the whole English nation when referring to resistance to further Danish incursions.
English identity survived the dreadful trauma of the Norman Conquest, and re-emerged during the 14th Century flowering in the Elizabethan Age – that’s no legend, no myth
‘It might even have stayed in the European Union.’ A confederation as described would not have had the means to win the world wars in the 20th century, so there would have been no European Union to join, just Greater Germany managing everyone.
Imagine then that a German-ruled UK would have had less than 8000 of its citizen having died of Covid-19 instead of 44 000.:-)
John wasn’t England’s worst ever King. That was Edward II who did nothing good, caused a civil war, left nothing of value and has the unique distinction of having been defeated by the Scots. John fought the barons but gave justice to those who were no threat to him and gave many towns their charters which allowed them to grow rich and influential.
Henry VI not far behind him!
This is a bit pointless. Coulda, woulda, shoulda………In the last 800 years all sorts of things could have happened to your hypothetical Union of the British Isles, it might for example have been conquered by foreign powers, it might have engaged in endless wars between its members, who knows? It’s impossible to say
I agree. All these speculative attempts at alternative histories are always rather pointless.
Ms. MacKenzie’s writing is longer than the Magna Carta itself, while still missing the entire point of the document. Very specifically, the Magna Carta ” in its first 10 clauses ” states the Church, the King, and Jewish lenders should not impoverish middle-class people. In 1215 terms, this entailed orphans and widows, and further serves as the foundation of modern Anglo concepts of freedom.
The Magna Carta is a perfect metaphor for our usurious times, where younger, middle-class people are financially destroyed by the establishment before the age of twenty-two.
It is a testament how revolutionary the Magna Carta was. It didn’t devolve into philosophical debates about freedom. Rather, it articulated the fundamental nature of freedom ” the ability to be free from hereditary usury, in all of its forms. Go ahead, try reading it for yourself sometime, Brits.
The woke left are anarchist and criminals bent on the destruction of our normal society. We need to strip all funding for the places at learning institutions and reduce access. Universities should be there for the general benefit of society not for a small self serving group bent on criminality.
Oh yes.. refund the pol—- the the universities. Cancel the institutions.😂
This article calls to mind the CS Lewis quote about tyranny:
‘Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals’
In fact, this whole ‘woke’ spasm society seems to be going through calls this quote to mind. CS Lewis hit the nail on the head, good and true.
Agree, entirely. 60 years ago I was exposed to the same sort of ideological nonsense but as a graduate student of what was then called political science I learned that, when attempts to change the way things are done by overthrowing the existing system, many lives are lost and it can take generations before sanity and political. justice are restored.
Seems a bit like wishful thinking, England hadn’t been divided since Anglo-Saxon times, why would the barons have decided to divide it now? Plus there isn’t any guarantee that no Magna Carta means some sort of baron confederacy, eventually the barons would push too far and there’d be a backlash against them, giving the Crown more power.
An admirable analysis of the state of higher education and its malodorous influence on a generation of misguided, sanctimonious dunderheads.
How glad am I to be an ordinary bloke! Uni sounds like one big drag. When I left school (1962) sex drugs and rock n roll was the thing.(Not much sex tho’). I use my phone to text/talk and occasionally get stupid stuff taking the rise out of everyone and every thing. How much simpler it is to be 74 and having as much fun as I can.
Thought-provoking hypothesising, but unlikely. I don’t actually see that England did dominate Wales and Scotland, the contributions from both of which are remarkable given their smaller size. Ireland, well, that’s more complicated….
The academic establishment that has fomented this problem is no longer fit for purpose or even salvageable by normal management principles.
My guess is that ‘the market’ will eventually come to the rescue with some new grass roots places of learning which might have to step back a century or so to pick up foundational education tenets like the old style universities. A quality education is now at a premium like never before…
All the young people I talk to seem to be interested in is drinking and shagging in exactly the same way I was when I was their age. When I mention BLM and cancel culture they are aware of it but don’t care about it.
I think the whole thing is just a small group of sad tossers, as Tobias now confesses he once was, making a disproportionate amount of noise.