Eliminating the effects of ageing will not bring immortality. We will also have to eliminate all fatal diseases. Of course, that is still not enough. There are many ways of dying. We will have to eliminate all accidental causes of death as well. At the top of this list is automobile related fatalaties.
The list goes on and on. In the end, what are we left with? Murder and suicide. And given that we will have infinite lifespans it’s almost a certainty that the rate of murder plus suicide will near 100%. Yikes!
Well said. I also liked the post that noted that death is part of natural selection.
To me it would be a nightmarish world and the right to have children would have to be severely limited. Think of a world without kids …. Or teenagers. Think of a world where women look permanently 25yrs old and men in their mid 40’s. Think of the rich, narcissistic folks and “academics” who will want to live forever …
Wow! A nightmare. And who would fight the wars?
Living beyond a century would certainly be a conundrum for public sector pensions.
Although a market place in years of life could be set up. You could be offered a tax free life but you would be euthanized at 75. Or perhaps do this the other way round – if you claim state benefits you lose one year per life.
Horror story. Heaven on earth is not possible.
Frederick Foster
3 years ago
Ah death – the pause that refreshes! before your next incarnation, and so too with this incarnation, all previous incarnations, and all future incarnations too.
The real man or woman learns to live by becoming willing and able to die. Such a one is able to confront the difficult barriers and frustrations of this always threatening world and, yet, remain capable of ecstasy in every moment..
Therefore, the primary initiation that leads to human maturity is the necessary confrontation with mortal fear. Only when the ultimate frustration that is death has been fully considered and felt and understood as a process can the individual live without self protective and self destructive fears. Only in intuitive freedom from the threat and fear of death is the (apparent) individual capable of constant love of Truth and Reality, and also capable of transcending the frustrating and self-binding effects of daily experience (whether positive or negative). Only in freedom from mortal recoil from Truth and Reality is the (apparent) individual capable of ecstasy under all conditions.
Therefore, be alive – but learn right life by first dealing with your death. Become aware that you do not live, but that you are Lived by Reality Itself. Become willing to die in any moment, and maintain no inward armor against it. Die in every moment – by not holding on to your (apparent) separate life.
Dave H
3 years ago
I like life, and being healthy, and learning about the universe. I’d like all those things to carry on
And friends and family and good times. But yes, very much this.
I’m about halfway through life’s journey, hopefully less than half, but either way I’m about there. I still can’t imagine ever being ready for life’s journey to end, certainly not in about the same time I’ve already had. There’s so much world, so much universe there. I want to be there as humanity continues to develop.
Yes, longer life would involve massive changes to society. But we could change and adapt, as humanity always has.
Halfway? You might not live out this day. Always be prepared for your death at any moment. The constant acknowledgement of your impending death is what unfastens the chains of your life.
Whether I live out the day is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion. I hope to live a lot longer because I enjoy life. I can hold that hope whilst also knowing that life is precarious and may end unexpectedly.
You can acknowledge death every day if you like, but that sounds pretty morbid to me. And I used to be a goth…
As you grow older, hopefully, you will grow wiser. Have you ever read Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse? It’s a good place to begin. There is nothing morbid about being totally aware of your impending death. It is what makes life sweet and potentially meaningful. Yes? Have a good day …..
That almost sounds like expectation that I’ll live longer, which apparently we’ve already established is wrong, regardless of how statistically likely.
And no, life is not made meaningful by knowledge of death. If indefinite life extension ever is possible then I shall embrace it and still find meaning. It’s a facile, apologist view that without death, life would be meaningless.
If you live your life well, you will be prepared for death every moment of your life. It matters not if we pass from this world when we’re 10 or 50 or 100 years of age. Every moment we spend worrying and fretting about the inevitable outcome to our lives is one less moment of life lived well.
D Glover
3 years ago
You’re telling us that methylation is the mechanism of ageing. A few years back a flurry of articles said that losing telemeres from the ends of chromosomes was the reason cells became senile. Could Tom Chivers tell us if the ‘no telemeres left’ explanation is still accepted, or does this theory supersede it?
Auberon Linx
3 years ago
I know this is just a popular summary of recent research, but the idea that we would be able to extend lifespan by manipulating DNA methylation sounds deeply unconvincing. It is akin to suggesting that, as hair gets white or lost with age, hair dyeing and hair transplantation would be viable life-extending treatments.
While the author notes that there has already been some progress in life extension, highlighting that we “can already expect several decades more than could 99% of humans who have ever lived”, this is rather less than it appears. There have been huge advances in reducing infant mortality, but the oldest people today are no older than the oldest people several thousand years ago. This is not what most people would consider meaningful extension of the biological lifespan.
As for the trans-humanist fantasies of living forever, the technologies that would allow this to happen have supposedly been round the corner for a couple of centuries now. The current crop does not appear any more likely to happen than the previous ones. For the people interested in the subject, I strongly recommend John Gray’s survey of more recent dreams of ending death, “The Immortalisation Commission”. The focus is mostly on the Bolsheviks’ hopes of living forever, but he may as well have been writing about the Silicon Valley tech bros.
Given the almost certain impossibility of living forever, personally I find frivolous contemplating whether it would be a good thing or not (although it might be an interesting premise for a science fiction or fantasy work). The life we have is short, and we, and all those we know will die. What do we do with the time that we were given?
Jon Walmsley
3 years ago
“I like getting older. Mainly, I like how little I care about what other people think about me, now.” Caring about what other people think of you or not has little to do with age and much more to do with perspective. Over time, sheer experience of life gives you a certain increase in perspective on life, but it’s nothing you can’t learn in your youth either with enough openness.
As to this whole notion of extending life, it’s a fascinating philosophical and even moral question – overpopulation is already a thing, and I can’t imagine how excerbated the environmental and social problems would be by even more of has hanging around even longer. Still, if aging was slowed and our propensity to catch disease decreased along with it, it might allow people to worry a little less about ‘being somebody’ due to the more impending nature of the ticking clock, and more focused on ‘being themselves’ to the general betterment of all, though first this insight needs to be understood itself.
Even so, suffering, including suffering from disease and ageing and ultimately death, offers its own lessons and perspective on life that we can draw strength from and so to take them away without a commensurate increase in the spiritual maturity of our species would I fear turn is unto an even harder people.
Extended lives and health just means human beings would only have more to lose, and our grasping after life may simply only increase and cause greater suffering as a result. By putting these very real and ultimately unchangeable things off even longer, I worry human beings would only turn even more outwards for their sense of self rather than inwards, and cast the world into a very deep shadow indeed.
If this scenario became reality, as the fear of natural death would recede, at least in a more impending sense, so the fear of early death would increase, and the fear of losing self along with it. Whereas to ultimately live life to the full, however long or short, requires a complete embrace of death in oneself and an end to self-made suffering, and human beings as a species are a long way off this collective understanding as is now. Simply increasing their lifespans may only make things worse, for health and long life is not the source of self-nourishment but wisdom and self-understanding.
Lindsay Gatward
3 years ago
A species that ages and dies soon after successful reproduction will quickly out evolve one whose natural selection is constantly polluted by ancients – But you have to build to perfection and then self destruct – So having achieved the process of always building to perfection it is probably very hard to achieve the reverse but with difficulty it was achieved so it may turn out easy to correct it?
Robert Flack
3 years ago
Would we want Stalin or Hitler to live forever? If not who judges who lives and dies?
I know such a sense of morbidity well – as a late-teens music student, what could be more cliché than a constant bout of depression? I don’t know if this is helpful, but I realised that such a constant awareness of death is purely aesthetic, entirely structural – it’s the same concern I have for my music. Just as a symphony might be said to have an inherent length, or a colour a certain size of canvas, so we perceive life as having inherent immortality. Does Tom Chivers honestly care how many more Dairy Milk bars he eats (?), of course not. What he’s dwelling on is our lack of control and the paradox of finite cognizant creatures such as ourselves.
Eliminating the effects of ageing will not bring immortality. We will also have to eliminate all fatal diseases. Of course, that is still not enough. There are many ways of dying. We will have to eliminate all accidental causes of death as well. At the top of this list is automobile related fatalaties.
The list goes on and on. In the end, what are we left with? Murder and suicide. And given that we will have infinite lifespans it’s almost a certainty that the rate of murder plus suicide will near 100%. Yikes!
Well said. I also liked the post that noted that death is part of natural selection.
To me it would be a nightmarish world and the right to have children would have to be severely limited. Think of a world without kids …. Or teenagers. Think of a world where women look permanently 25yrs old and men in their mid 40’s. Think of the rich, narcissistic folks and “academics” who will want to live forever …
Wow! A nightmare. And who would fight the wars?
Living beyond a century would certainly be a conundrum for public sector pensions.
Although a market place in years of life could be set up. You could be offered a tax free life but you would be euthanized at 75. Or perhaps do this the other way round – if you claim state benefits you lose one year per life.
Horror story. Heaven on earth is not possible.
Ah death – the pause that refreshes! before your next incarnation, and so too with this incarnation, all previous incarnations, and all future incarnations too.
The real man or woman learns to live by becoming willing and able to die.
Such a one is able to confront the difficult barriers and frustrations of this always threatening world and, yet, remain capable of ecstasy in every moment..
Therefore, the primary initiation that leads to human maturity is the necessary confrontation with mortal fear.
Only when the ultimate frustration that is death has been fully considered and felt and understood as a process can the individual live without self protective and self destructive fears.
Only in intuitive freedom from the threat and fear of death is the (apparent) individual capable of constant love of Truth and Reality, and also capable of transcending the frustrating and self-binding effects of daily experience (whether positive or negative).
Only in freedom from mortal recoil from Truth and Reality is the (apparent) individual capable of ecstasy under all conditions.
Therefore, be alive – but learn right life by first dealing with your death.
Become aware that you do not live, but that you are Lived by Reality Itself.
Become willing to die in any moment, and maintain no inward armor against it.
Die in every moment – by not holding on to your (apparent) separate life.
And friends and family and good times. But yes, very much this.
I’m about halfway through life’s journey, hopefully less than half, but either way I’m about there. I still can’t imagine ever being ready for life’s journey to end, certainly not in about the same time I’ve already had. There’s so much world, so much universe there. I want to be there as humanity continues to develop.
Yes, longer life would involve massive changes to society. But we could change and adapt, as humanity always has.
Halfway? You might not live out this day. Always be prepared for your death at any moment. The constant acknowledgement of your impending death is what unfastens the chains of your life.
Whether I live out the day is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion. I hope to live a lot longer because I enjoy life. I can hold that hope whilst also knowing that life is precarious and may end unexpectedly.
You can acknowledge death every day if you like, but that sounds pretty morbid to me. And I used to be a goth…
As you grow older, hopefully, you will grow wiser. Have you ever read Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse? It’s a good place to begin. There is nothing morbid about being totally aware of your impending death. It is what makes life sweet and potentially meaningful. Yes? Have a good day …..
“As I grow older” ?
That almost sounds like expectation that I’ll live longer, which apparently we’ve already established is wrong, regardless of how statistically likely.
And no, life is not made meaningful by knowledge of death. If indefinite life extension ever is possible then I shall embrace it and still find meaning. It’s a facile, apologist view that without death, life would be meaningless.
Good luck in all that you do ……
If you live your life well, you will be prepared for death every moment of your life. It matters not if we pass from this world when we’re 10 or 50 or 100 years of age. Every moment we spend worrying and fretting about the inevitable outcome to our lives is one less moment of life lived well.
You’re telling us that methylation is the mechanism of ageing.
A few years back a flurry of articles said that losing telemeres from the ends of chromosomes was the reason cells became senile.
Could Tom Chivers tell us if the ‘no telemeres left’ explanation is still accepted, or does this theory supersede it?
I know this is just a popular summary of recent research, but the idea that we would be able to extend lifespan by manipulating DNA methylation sounds deeply unconvincing. It is akin to suggesting that, as hair gets white or lost with age, hair dyeing and hair transplantation would be viable life-extending treatments.
While the author notes that there has already been some progress in life extension, highlighting that we “can already expect several decades more than could 99% of humans who have ever lived”, this is rather less than it appears. There have been huge advances in reducing infant mortality, but the oldest people today are no older than the oldest people several thousand years ago. This is not what most people would consider meaningful extension of the biological lifespan.
As for the trans-humanist fantasies of living forever, the technologies that would allow this to happen have supposedly been round the corner for a couple of centuries now. The current crop does not appear any more likely to happen than the previous ones. For the people interested in the subject, I strongly recommend John Gray’s survey of more recent dreams of ending death, “The Immortalisation Commission”. The focus is mostly on the Bolsheviks’ hopes of living forever, but he may as well have been writing about the Silicon Valley tech bros.
Given the almost certain impossibility of living forever, personally I find frivolous contemplating whether it would be a good thing or not (although it might be an interesting premise for a science fiction or fantasy work). The life we have is short, and we, and all those we know will die. What do we do with the time that we were given?
“I like getting older. Mainly, I like how little I care about what other people think about me, now.” Caring about what other people think of you or not has little to do with age and much more to do with perspective. Over time, sheer experience of life gives you a certain increase in perspective on life, but it’s nothing you can’t learn in your youth either with enough openness.
As to this whole notion of extending life, it’s a fascinating philosophical and even moral question – overpopulation is already a thing, and I can’t imagine how excerbated the environmental and social problems would be by even more of has hanging around even longer. Still, if aging was slowed and our propensity to catch disease decreased along with it, it might allow people to worry a little less about ‘being somebody’ due to the more impending nature of the ticking clock, and more focused on ‘being themselves’ to the general betterment of all, though first this insight needs to be understood itself.
Even so, suffering, including suffering from disease and ageing and ultimately death, offers its own lessons and perspective on life that we can draw strength from and so to take them away without a commensurate increase in the spiritual maturity of our species would I fear turn is unto an even harder people.
Extended lives and health just means human beings would only have more to lose, and our grasping after life may simply only increase and cause greater suffering as a result. By putting these very real and ultimately unchangeable things off even longer, I worry human beings would only turn even more outwards for their sense of self rather than inwards, and cast the world into a very deep shadow indeed.
If this scenario became reality, as the fear of natural death would recede, at least in a more impending sense, so the fear of early death would increase, and the fear of losing self along with it. Whereas to ultimately live life to the full, however long or short, requires a complete embrace of death in oneself and an end to self-made suffering, and human beings as a species are a long way off this collective understanding as is now. Simply increasing their lifespans may only make things worse, for health and long life is not the source of self-nourishment but wisdom and self-understanding.
A species that ages and dies soon after successful reproduction will quickly out evolve one whose natural selection is constantly polluted by ancients – But you have to build to perfection and then self destruct – So having achieved the process of always building to perfection it is probably very hard to achieve the reverse but with difficulty it was achieved so it may turn out easy to correct it?
Would we want Stalin or Hitler to live forever? If not who judges who lives and dies?