I would make a distinction between sartorial selection and manners. Wearing a business suit when all around you are similarly attired smacks of convention rather than manners.
As the twin ructions of Brexit and the Covid lockdown have managed inadvertently to divide British society I rather naively decided to do my microscopic bit for national unity by giving a wave or a “good morning” to everyone I passed on my morning bike ride. Responses range from total blanking to sheepish half smiles to a full wave and a “good morning” back. So far so what you may say.
What I hadn’t bargained for has been the feeling of immense well-being and connection I have whenever someone responds and I can see that goodwill reflected in their eyes. Far from being a chore this simple act brightens my day and hopefully theirs too.
Modern perceptions that manners are a throwback to a bygone age couldn’t be further from the truth. They are needed more than ever to bind us together as people in an increasingly remote and disconnected world.
I’m still working on one particular curmudgeon who turns away as I pass but resistance is futile.
Mark Corby
3 years ago
“Manners maketh man”, is attributed to the great fourteenth century Bishop of Winchester, William of Wykeham. Today we say either ” doesn’t know how to behave”, or amusingly ” not potty trained”. Without these rebukes, society, such as it is, would rapidly descend into the ‘feral wonderland’ of the “Shriekers”.
However for Michael Gove to attempt to guilt trip’ trip’ us into this mask nonsense, by appealing to our sense of good manners, is disingenuous, to say the very least. This has nothing to do with manners and everything to do with ‘virtue signalling’, perhaps the worst scourge of modern society. A truly revolting pastime that Gove, as he well knows, should not pander to.
Your castigation of the Judiciary is long overdue. Nearly twenty years ago it was Lennie Hoffmann, now it’s Hale and the UK Supreme Court, setting a low standard of behaviour and then failing to achieve even that. Do we really wish to follow the US where Capital sentences are handed down by ill dressed men and women? O for the days of the Sentencing Cap, or Black Hat as it was known colloquially.
I seem to recall reading about an interview with JFK where he was asked what he could do to make America a better place if he became President? He is purported to have replied “shoot the lawyers”. I don’t know whether this story is true but it did make me smile. Today the list of candidates for the firing squad would, for me at least, be far larger.
My commiserations, you have obviously had a sense of humour bypass?
benbow01
3 years ago
Good manners means you shouldn’t impose on others or expect others to serve your interests because you don’t or can’t be bothered.
Leaving aside effectiveness of masks in general use – they are not – but anyway infection control requires single barrier. If A wears a mask B need not. If A is infectious they cannot infect B, if B is infectious they cannot infect A.
Good manners would be if bedwetters wore masks, so others don’t have to.
If Mr Gove understood good manners he would know that good manners would be for individuals to take care of their own health not expect others to do so, and not put upon others.
Also if Mr Gove had any manners he would not have insulted our intelligence by trying to manipulate us with propaganda dressed up as a lesson in ‘manners’ to make us feel guilty for not obeying the tyrant. That’s right out of Mao’s Little Red Book.
annescarlett
3 years ago
Why do people always mention ‘the youth of today’ 60 years ago when I was a youth they said the same thing, and likely 60 years before that. Manners is also respecting individuals autonomy, sensibility and ability to make decisions regarding their own health. Gove et al., have shown excellent manners and judgement throughout this ‘flu’ have they not? Well no they have not, they have killed a large proportion of the elderly population, they have sentenced others to isolation impacting on their physical and emotional wellbeing. Others have no employment and are facing poverty, others cannot get their treatment for cancer, heart disease or other serious health problems. Masks symbolise a person who is submissive and has no voice and nothing worth saying, so please spare me from Michael Gove and his ilk because I for one intend to continue to shout and to shout loud.
Dennis Wheeler
3 years ago
Generalized mask wearing outside a medical context with properly fitted and trained use of masks is not about politeness – it’s about social and political control and conformity. It’s a mind control device designed to inducing a perpetual state of fear and paranoia amongst the population. It’s as useless and arbitrary as the “social distancing” BS, for which there is also no scientific basis and no objective standard (WHO recommends 3 feet, some countries have gone with 1 meter, some 2, most idiot governors here in the US are recommending – again arbitrarily – 6 feet. The distance is beside the point – the goal is to control social interactions and induce fear).
Mark Cole
3 years ago
Very good – but I am afraid that not just the youth of today but people in general have largely forgotten manners as they have Civic duty. Leaving trash on trains or in parks, at beaches or wherever the “rave” is. We need some “Civic education and it should include basic manners – after all this used to be the essence of the British Gentleman respected by all and something white and BAME alike should cherish
Most people do take their litter with them, pick up their dog’s poo etc. The trouble is, it does not take many people to be inconsiderate to give the impression that it is an overwhelming problem.
A Spetzari
3 years ago
Great reference to Band of Brothers. So many examples of leadership (good and bad) moral courage (good and bad), loyalty and service in one show.
There’s a very good reason it’s still used as a teaching aide in most leadership academies.
Michael Baldwin
3 years ago
I very much agree that manners and a code of conduct generally is a very good and desirable thing in a society that wishes to aspire to civilised, peaceful and harmonious behaviour, but the problem is there is currently the most enormous row about what such acceptable manners and code of conduct is or should be.
For example, I personally consider swearing to be bad manners, as do I discussion with non-intimate persons (such as husbands/wives) about either their or your sexual tendencies and conduct, but a now enormous part of the population and indeed media, considers it “their right”, and it seems in fact especially (and how ironically therefore) the part that calls itself “politically correct.”
For example again, the picture above shows a frail looking elderly gentleman wearing a union jack face mask.
The question that concerns me is why he is wearing it.
Is he wearing it because he is being good mannered; or because he has been made to believe it will protect him from what he is told by the authorities is a dangerous disease?
Or because he fears others may target him if he refuses to wear one?
Some already vicious examples of which demonisation and harassment of those who refuse to wear face masks have occurred of the most outrageous kind, such as one woman motorist screaming at a nearby male motorist in the next lane accusing him of not social distancing.
So it appears likely that he is not wearing the mask out of good manners, but because he has been frightened into doing so by one of several factors, none of which may be justified.
Especially because the science apparently says that face masks do not much or at all protect the wearer from this kind of virus, but only allegedly protect others from you, if you have the virus.
If he actually wants to protect himself from the virus, apparently the only safe way to do that is not leave his home and not associate with any family members or other strangers entering his home.
The fact he is on the street at all however means either he has no choice but to go out, for example for food, or he wants to go out despite the risk, in which case he is quite likely being forced to wear a mask against his will, a mask which may very well cause him distress or difficulties breathing.
The government has taken measures regarding this virus, firstly forcing masks on all using public transport, which is very heavily used by elderly men and women like himself, and then forcing masks on these same vulnerable and often fragile older people now even in shops.
Such elderly men like him have also been denied access to their pubs, social clubs, libraries and possibly places of worship too.
So in short their lives have been made hell and filled with fear, when these are the sort of very vulnerable people who it is claimed the government is most trying to protect, but instead has forcibly put them under house arrests disconnected them from their families, friends and social lives and even general medical support and access to pastoral care, and all the government and authorities talk about is how they are saving and protecting lives, when they are torturing and destroying the lives of men and women like the one above in their millions.
So I think not only does this show massive disrespect and indeed cruelty by the government and authorities upon these older people, both men and women of course, but I think we could safely describe it as a very outstanding display of bad manners.
I think the best definition of manners is as suggested above, actions which lead to others being respected or disrespected.
Of course it is even worse manners when so many younger and healthier people angrily demand that older and not so healthy people, who simple find it uncomfortable and unduly restricting of their breathing, should wear masks to protect those same younger people who are very little at risk.
There seems to be a general lack of good manners from the young towards the old, including the largely young government members, who have been trampling all over the lives of the something like 12 million over 65s and 20 million over 55s in this country, all of whom it seems to have been forgotten by these same authorities who have acted with such poor manners and disrespect, are all voters.
Which incidentally brings us to the fact the elderly man in the photo is wearing a union jack mask, which would rather suggest he is a nationalist and a Brexit voter; and there are numerous bad mannered comments visible on various websites from presumably younger persons who have even overtly expressed their hopes that all such older Brexit voters will soon die off, having in their view “ruined the futures” of the younger people, who seem oblivious to the fact it is successive governments who have ruined their lives by taking away all the freedoms that the older people once enjoyed, not the older people, who almost without exception wished the young to have not only what they had, but even more.
Many older people are well aware of the contempt the younger ones on the Remain side of the referendum have for them, which is rude to say the least.
As a final thought, let us in this discussion of manners ask if for example, it was not the government who was asking us to wear masks to protect others, but our neighbour over the garden fence, who said “I have heard you coughing and sneezing lately, would you please wear a face mask in future (maybe with an “or else” in his tone) as I don’t want my family catching your disease?”
I wonder how many neighbours would find it acceptable for their neighbour to seek to mask them in such a way, for example while they are mowing the lawn?
(so if they wouldn’t, why would they find it acceptable either when the government does?)
I rather think there would be a great many fights and likely even murders if neighbours generally tried to exert that policy on one another.
But now the government has created a situation in which millions of such conflicts may now take place, leading sooner or later to countless such violent conflicts and almost certainly murders too.
Will they be counting all this terrorisation of and murder of one’s neighbour in their covid-19 death statistics one wonders?
While good manners are always preferable when possible, perhaps when governments behave in such a bad mannered way, there is a time to be rude, or perhaps they will not get the message that what they have done is unacceptable and outrageous.
By behaving as they’ve done over this virus, and especially over the mask issue, they’ve reignited the existing Brexit war between the two sides of the population, and taken it to a new level of conflict which is quite likely to lead to serious violence and actual murder in possibly very numerous cases.
Perhaps when a government acts this unwisely, we are then entitled to tell them “where to go” in as explicit terms as necessary, especially when they try to muzzle our faces as if we were all dangerous dogs, on account of a disease that is officially admitted to be only dangerous to the old and those with serious underlying health issues, which has been the case since the beginning of time regarding all respiratory viruses such as the common cold or flu.
That is to say, while good manners are good for society, if they are being used to make bad mannered decisions, by hypocritical persons hiding behind superficial good manners, they actually betray the whole ethos of manners, if they are used to mask decisions which are actually brutal and tyrannical, thus showing a false appearance of being civilised to deceive everyone.
I am sorry to say, that is very much the status quo regarding officials and authorities in general right now, including the medical authorities and scientific advisors who have ordered this repression of public life and freedom – acting civilised, but not actually being it, and hence mass rebellion is ready to erupt everywhere at this shameless hypocrisy and display of authoritarian bad manners, and deservedly so.
ursus262
3 years ago
Manners is also an awareness of our own behaviour out of respect for others.
Brian Dorsley
3 years ago
Manner is very much a cultural phenomenon.
I lived for a while in The Netherlands where exhibiting manners is seen as participating in class distinctions. As an Englishman it drove me mad when people pushed through queues or cursed rudely at you for inadvertently being in their way, whereas the tendency in England is to apologize when someone else accidentally steps on your foot. Basically, being polite in The Netherlands means you will get walked all over. Overtime I taught myself to become more assertive and ‘taking’ which helps immensely. Fortunately, the Dutch, although verbally aggressive, usually don’t let things devolve into physical violence.
When I lived in the US South, I had to relearn politeness and manners, because the Dutch way of interacting doesn’t get you very far there. However, I did feel that there was a lot of unspoken underlying anger and resentment among Americans that could easily erupt into terrible bouts of murderous rage, hence the many shootings we often hear about.
I can’t say which is better. While I appreciate the Dutch outspokenness it does get wearisome after a while, particularly in a work setting. On the other hand, while people deal with me very politely in the US, it’s not always easy to tell if someone genuinely likes me or if they are merely humoring me, but secretly hate me.
Manner is certainly cultural. As a half Englishman born and raised in the Netherlands I recognise your experiences. As manners and speech are concerned I tend to be more English than Dutch, and so tend to wait a lot because nobody gives met the courtesy I give. The south of the country (Brabant & Limburg) is much more into manners though. Some southerners prefer commuting to the west where business communication is more businesslike, while continuing to live in the south because the people there are more laid back and the pubs are beter :-).
At the same time, my experience in the UK (at least in London, which is not representative of the rest of the country) is that they will politely say ‘excuse me’ as they shove you aside in their hurry. Form without content is not manners to me.
Silke David
3 years ago
I like manners, to an extent. Not the extent you describe. I am German, where we talk quite straight. We respect people who deserve respect, not because they have a title. I used to work in an establishment here in England, where I met titled people, either inherited or given by the Queen. I treat everyone the same. You respect me, I respect you. And please can the English learn the basic manner of saying a greeting when they enter a room, for example entering the office in the morning which is already full of their colleagues. I often enter my workplace with a cheerful “Good Morning” to be met with ….ignorance.
Mike Young
3 years ago
Please and thank you are good manners, but what you describe is a harking back to the past where people did not leave home without a hat, gave excessive deference to those in high societal positions; judges, MPs, Lords, Gentleman etc.
Quite frankly, most of what I have read here seems a lot of guff. If we travel down the path you suggest we will soon be back where we started, with those in higher positions in society controlling those at the lower end.
I thought this kind of view was consigned to the dustbin with the ‘class sketch’ on The Frost Report in 1966. The fact this kind of view is getting traction again in an era of COVID does not surprise me and should be a warning to us all.
Mike Young
3 years ago
Apparently this comment was marked as spam. Trying to post again…
Please and thank you are good manners, but what you describe is a harking back to the past where people did not leave home without a hat, gave excessive deference to those in high societal positions; judges, MPs, Lords, Gentleman etc.
Quite frankly, most of what I have read here seems a lot of guff. If we travel down the path you suggest we will soon be back where we started, with those in higher positions in society controlling those at the lower end.
I thought this kind of view was consigned to the dustbin with the ‘class sketch’ on The Frost Report in 1966. The fact this kind of view is getting traction again in an era of COVID does not surprise me and should be a warning to us all.
Michael Baldwin
3 years ago
NOTE TO MODERATORS: I had an earlier comment placed in the spam folder which I do not believe was spam. Could you please review it and restore it if appropriate. It appears that if somebody flags a comment as spam there is no redress, and it is possible therefore that certain members are simply flagging comments as spam that they don’t like, which appears to be a form of unjust and malicious censorship which the victims of this behaviour appear to be unable to protest about.
It may be that the software automatically bins something flagged as spam.
If so, that function should be disabled.
Reminds me of some blogs where anyone expressing dissent, no matter how reasonably, is labeled a troll. I guess that is quicker than actually responding to the points.
I would make a distinction between sartorial selection and manners. Wearing a business suit when all around you are similarly attired smacks of convention rather than manners.
As the twin ructions of Brexit and the Covid lockdown have managed inadvertently to divide British society I rather naively decided to do my microscopic bit for national unity by giving a wave or a “good morning” to everyone I passed on my morning bike ride. Responses range from total blanking to sheepish half smiles to a full wave and a “good morning” back. So far so what you may say.
What I hadn’t bargained for has been the feeling of immense well-being and connection I have whenever someone responds and I can see that goodwill reflected in their eyes. Far from being a chore this simple act brightens my day and hopefully theirs too.
Modern perceptions that manners are a throwback to a bygone age couldn’t be further from the truth. They are needed more than ever to bind us together as people in an increasingly remote and disconnected world.
I’m still working on one particular curmudgeon who turns away as I pass but resistance is futile.
“Manners maketh man”, is attributed to the great fourteenth century Bishop of Winchester, William of Wykeham. Today we say either ” doesn’t know how to behave”, or amusingly ” not potty trained”.
Without these rebukes, society, such as it is, would rapidly descend into the ‘feral wonderland’ of the “Shriekers”.
However for Michael Gove to attempt to guilt trip’ trip’ us into this mask nonsense, by appealing to our sense of good manners, is disingenuous, to say the very least. This has nothing to do with manners and everything to do with ‘virtue signalling’, perhaps the worst scourge of modern society. A truly revolting pastime that Gove, as he well knows, should not pander to.
Your castigation of the Judiciary is long overdue. Nearly twenty years ago it was Lennie Hoffmann, now it’s Hale and the UK Supreme Court, setting a low standard of behaviour and then failing to achieve even that. Do we really wish to follow the US where Capital sentences are handed down by ill dressed men and women?
O for the days of the Sentencing Cap, or Black Hat as it was known colloquially.
I seem to recall reading about an interview with JFK where he was asked what he could do to make America a better place if he became President? He is purported to have replied “shoot the lawyers”.
I don’t know whether this story is true but it did make me smile. Today the list of candidates for the firing squad would, for me at least, be far larger.
Yes indeed, we may run out of ammunition.
What a maoist thing to say…
My commiserations, you have obviously had a sense of humour bypass?
Good manners means you shouldn’t impose on others or expect others to serve your interests because you don’t or can’t be bothered.
Leaving aside effectiveness of masks in general use – they are not – but anyway infection control requires single barrier. If A wears a mask B need not. If A is infectious they cannot infect B, if B is infectious they cannot infect A.
Good manners would be if bedwetters wore masks, so others don’t have to.
If Mr Gove understood good manners he would know that good manners would be for individuals to take care of their own health not expect others to do so, and not put upon others.
Also if Mr Gove had any manners he would not have insulted our intelligence by trying to manipulate us with propaganda dressed up as a lesson in ‘manners’ to make us feel guilty for not obeying the tyrant. That’s right out of Mao’s Little Red Book.
Why do people always mention ‘the youth of today’ 60 years ago when I was a youth they said the same thing, and likely 60 years before that. Manners is also respecting individuals autonomy, sensibility and ability to make decisions regarding their own health. Gove et al., have shown excellent manners and judgement throughout this ‘flu’ have they not? Well no they have not, they have killed a large proportion of the elderly population, they have sentenced others to isolation impacting on their physical and emotional wellbeing. Others have no employment and are facing poverty, others cannot get their treatment for cancer, heart disease or other serious health problems. Masks symbolise a person who is submissive and has no voice and nothing worth saying, so please spare me from Michael Gove and his ilk because I for one intend to continue to shout and to shout loud.
Generalized mask wearing outside a medical context with properly fitted and trained use of masks is not about politeness – it’s about social and political control and conformity. It’s a mind control device designed to inducing a perpetual state of fear and paranoia amongst the population. It’s as useless and arbitrary as the “social distancing” BS, for which there is also no scientific basis and no objective standard (WHO recommends 3 feet, some countries have gone with 1 meter, some 2, most idiot governors here in the US are recommending – again arbitrarily – 6 feet. The distance is beside the point – the goal is to control social interactions and induce fear).
Very good – but I am afraid that not just the youth of today but people in general have largely forgotten manners as they have Civic duty. Leaving trash on trains or in parks, at beaches or wherever the “rave” is. We need some “Civic education and it should include basic manners – after all this used to be the essence of the British Gentleman respected by all and something white and BAME alike should cherish
Most people do take their litter with them, pick up their dog’s poo etc. The trouble is, it does not take many people to be inconsiderate to give the impression that it is an overwhelming problem.
Great reference to Band of Brothers. So many examples of leadership (good and bad) moral courage (good and bad), loyalty and service in one show.
There’s a very good reason it’s still used as a teaching aide in most leadership academies.
I very much agree that manners and a code of conduct generally is a very good and desirable thing in a society that wishes to aspire to civilised, peaceful and harmonious behaviour, but the problem is there is currently the most enormous row about what such acceptable manners and code of conduct is or should be.
For example, I personally consider swearing to be bad manners, as do I discussion with non-intimate persons (such as husbands/wives) about either their or your sexual tendencies and conduct, but a now enormous part of the population and indeed media, considers it “their right”, and it seems in fact especially (and how ironically therefore) the part that calls itself “politically correct.”
For example again, the picture above shows a frail looking elderly gentleman wearing a union jack face mask.
The question that concerns me is why he is wearing it.
Is he wearing it because he is being good mannered; or because he has been made to believe it will protect him from what he is told by the authorities is a dangerous disease?
Or because he fears others may target him if he refuses to wear one?
Some already vicious examples of which demonisation and harassment of those who refuse to wear face masks have occurred of the most outrageous kind, such as one woman motorist screaming at a nearby male motorist in the next lane accusing him of not social distancing.
So it appears likely that he is not wearing the mask out of good manners, but because he has been frightened into doing so by one of several factors, none of which may be justified.
Especially because the science apparently says that face masks do not much or at all protect the wearer from this kind of virus, but only allegedly protect others from you, if you have the virus.
If he actually wants to protect himself from the virus, apparently the only safe way to do that is not leave his home and not associate with any family members or other strangers entering his home.
The fact he is on the street at all however means either he has no choice but to go out, for example for food, or he wants to go out despite the risk, in which case he is quite likely being forced to wear a mask against his will, a mask which may very well cause him distress or difficulties breathing.
The government has taken measures regarding this virus, firstly forcing masks on all using public transport, which is very heavily used by elderly men and women like himself, and then forcing masks on these same vulnerable and often fragile older people now even in shops.
Such elderly men like him have also been denied access to their pubs, social clubs, libraries and possibly places of worship too.
So in short their lives have been made hell and filled with fear, when these are the sort of very vulnerable people who it is claimed the government is most trying to protect, but instead has forcibly put them under house arrests disconnected them from their families, friends and social lives and even general medical support and access to pastoral care, and all the government and authorities talk about is how they are saving and protecting lives, when they are torturing and destroying the lives of men and women like the one above in their millions.
So I think not only does this show massive disrespect and indeed cruelty by the government and authorities upon these older people, both men and women of course, but I think we could safely describe it as a very outstanding display of bad manners.
I think the best definition of manners is as suggested above, actions which lead to others being respected or disrespected.
Of course it is even worse manners when so many younger and healthier people angrily demand that older and not so healthy people, who simple find it uncomfortable and unduly restricting of their breathing, should wear masks to protect those same younger people who are very little at risk.
There seems to be a general lack of good manners from the young towards the old, including the largely young government members, who have been trampling all over the lives of the something like 12 million over 65s and 20 million over 55s in this country, all of whom it seems to have been forgotten by these same authorities who have acted with such poor manners and disrespect, are all voters.
Which incidentally brings us to the fact the elderly man in the photo is wearing a union jack mask, which would rather suggest he is a nationalist and a Brexit voter; and there are numerous bad mannered comments visible on various websites from presumably younger persons who have even overtly expressed their hopes that all such older Brexit voters will soon die off, having in their view “ruined the futures” of the younger people, who seem oblivious to the fact it is successive governments who have ruined their lives by taking away all the freedoms that the older people once enjoyed, not the older people, who almost without exception wished the young to have not only what they had, but even more.
Many older people are well aware of the contempt the younger ones on the Remain side of the referendum have for them, which is rude to say the least.
As a final thought, let us in this discussion of manners ask if for example, it was not the government who was asking us to wear masks to protect others, but our neighbour over the garden fence, who said “I have heard you coughing and sneezing lately, would you please wear a face mask in future (maybe with an “or else” in his tone) as I don’t want my family catching your disease?”
I wonder how many neighbours would find it acceptable for their neighbour to seek to mask them in such a way, for example while they are mowing the lawn?
(so if they wouldn’t, why would they find it acceptable either when the government does?)
I rather think there would be a great many fights and likely even murders if neighbours generally tried to exert that policy on one another.
But now the government has created a situation in which millions of such conflicts may now take place, leading sooner or later to countless such violent conflicts and almost certainly murders too.
Will they be counting all this terrorisation of and murder of one’s neighbour in their covid-19 death statistics one wonders?
While good manners are always preferable when possible, perhaps when governments behave in such a bad mannered way, there is a time to be rude, or perhaps they will not get the message that what they have done is unacceptable and outrageous.
By behaving as they’ve done over this virus, and especially over the mask issue, they’ve reignited the existing Brexit war between the two sides of the population, and taken it to a new level of conflict which is quite likely to lead to serious violence and actual murder in possibly very numerous cases.
Perhaps when a government acts this unwisely, we are then entitled to tell them “where to go” in as explicit terms as necessary, especially when they try to muzzle our faces as if we were all dangerous dogs, on account of a disease that is officially admitted to be only dangerous to the old and those with serious underlying health issues, which has been the case since the beginning of time regarding all respiratory viruses such as the common cold or flu.
That is to say, while good manners are good for society, if they are being used to make bad mannered decisions, by hypocritical persons hiding behind superficial good manners, they actually betray the whole ethos of manners, if they are used to mask decisions which are actually brutal and tyrannical, thus showing a false appearance of being civilised to deceive everyone.
I am sorry to say, that is very much the status quo regarding officials and authorities in general right now, including the medical authorities and scientific advisors who have ordered this repression of public life and freedom – acting civilised, but not actually being it, and hence mass rebellion is ready to erupt everywhere at this shameless hypocrisy and display of authoritarian bad manners, and deservedly so.
Manners is also an awareness of our own behaviour out of respect for others.
Manner is very much a cultural phenomenon.
I lived for a while in The Netherlands where exhibiting manners is seen as participating in class distinctions. As an Englishman it drove me mad when people pushed through queues or cursed rudely at you for inadvertently being in their way, whereas the tendency in England is to apologize when someone else accidentally steps on your foot. Basically, being polite in The Netherlands means you will get walked all over. Overtime I taught myself to become more assertive and ‘taking’ which helps immensely. Fortunately, the Dutch, although verbally aggressive, usually don’t let things devolve into physical violence.
When I lived in the US South, I had to relearn politeness and manners, because the Dutch way of interacting doesn’t get you very far there. However, I did feel that there was a lot of unspoken underlying anger and resentment among Americans that could easily erupt into terrible bouts of murderous rage, hence the many shootings we often hear about.
I can’t say which is better. While I appreciate the Dutch outspokenness it does get wearisome after a while, particularly in a work setting. On the other hand, while people deal with me very politely in the US, it’s not always easy to tell if someone genuinely likes me or if they are merely humoring me, but secretly hate me.
Manner is certainly cultural. As a half Englishman born and raised in the Netherlands I recognise your experiences. As manners and speech are concerned I tend to be more English than Dutch, and so tend to wait a lot because nobody gives met the courtesy I give. The south of the country (Brabant & Limburg) is much more into manners though. Some southerners prefer commuting to the west where business communication is more businesslike, while continuing to live in the south because the people there are more laid back and the pubs are beter :-).
At the same time, my experience in the UK (at least in London, which is not representative of the rest of the country) is that they will politely say ‘excuse me’ as they shove you aside in their hurry. Form without content is not manners to me.
I like manners, to an extent. Not the extent you describe. I am German, where we talk quite straight. We respect people who deserve respect, not because they have a title. I used to work in an establishment here in England, where I met titled people, either inherited or given by the Queen. I treat everyone the same. You respect me, I respect you. And please can the English learn the basic manner of saying a greeting when they enter a room, for example entering the office in the morning which is already full of their colleagues. I often enter my workplace with a cheerful “Good Morning” to be met with ….ignorance.
Please and thank you are good manners, but what you describe is a harking back to the past where people did not leave home without a hat, gave excessive deference to those in high societal positions; judges, MPs, Lords, Gentleman etc.
Quite frankly, most of what I have read here seems a lot of guff. If we travel down the path you suggest we will soon be back where we started, with those in higher positions in society controlling those at the lower end.
I thought this kind of view was consigned to the dustbin with the ‘class sketch’ on The Frost Report in 1966. The fact this kind of view is getting traction again in an era of COVID does not surprise me and should be a warning to us all.
Apparently this comment was marked as spam. Trying to post again…
Please and thank you are good manners, but what you describe is a harking back to the past where people did not leave home without a hat, gave excessive deference to those in high societal positions; judges, MPs, Lords, Gentleman etc.
Quite frankly, most of what I have read here seems a lot of guff. If we travel down the path you suggest we will soon be back where we started, with those in higher positions in society controlling those at the lower end.
I thought this kind of view was consigned to the dustbin with the ‘class sketch’ on The Frost Report in 1966. The fact this kind of view is getting traction again in an era of COVID does not surprise me and should be a warning to us all.
NOTE TO MODERATORS: I had an earlier comment placed in the spam folder which I do not believe was spam. Could you please review it and restore it if appropriate. It appears that if somebody flags a comment as spam there is no redress, and it is possible therefore that certain members are simply flagging comments as spam that they don’t like, which appears to be a form of unjust and malicious censorship which the victims of this behaviour appear to be unable to protest about.
Hello, moderators!
Please restore the comment!
Now I want to see it.
It may be that the software automatically bins something flagged as spam.
If so, that function should be disabled.
Reminds me of some blogs where anyone expressing dissent, no matter how reasonably, is labeled a troll. I guess that is quicker than actually responding to the points.
Same issue