Related to all this, one story the MSM studiously ignored was that of a Chinese person attempting to smuggle various SARS viruses into the US a couple of years ago. He was caught at the airport after initially denying that he had any vials in his luggage. He then admitted that he was taking them to a scientific colleague at a US college. For every one of these people that is caught, I would imagine there are plenty more getting through.
The virus originated from the only city in China with a Biosafety level 4 laboratory. If it occurred naturally, consider the probability that it would happen to arise in that location. I don’t think you need to look any further than that.
Kenneth MacKillop
3 years ago
One thing that still puzzles me a bit is how there could have been so many cases associated with the wet market if the initial contagion did not originate there.
That is, unless all of that was indeed a fraudulent fabrication on the part of the CCP after all. Since the recently publicized notion (out of Harvard, of all places) that SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in Aug. 2019 in Wuhan, it seems more plausible that the entire wet-market thing was fab’d, but I had been initially surprised how well accepted this claim appeared to be by CCP critics.
I will have to take a look at the MIT/Harvard study, but I do not see how it could possibly “disprove” that the wet market was a source of the virus. It could “suggest”, but not disprove, based upon genetic analysis of known bat viruses and human CoVs, etc.
One thing is for certain — any individual, regardless of credentials, that has ever made a claim that a lab origin is not possible is either an ignoramus or a fraud. And there have been many who have made such statements. There have been too many experts shooting off their self-interested mouths with this pandemic, be they epidemiologists or virologists or whatever. There have been very, very few truly knowledgeable and honest or disinterested people speaking publicly about any aspect of this pandemic — it is been remarkable in that respect I think. Both leaders and experts have been shown to be fools or worse IMO, but I reserve a special disdain for the so-called experts.
When the USA, France, Georgia, Italy, Switzerland… are all in bed doing gain of function research, who in the know is going to tell tales? It takes a bravely foolish person to do that.
The media (if the BBC is anything to go by) has been playing a propaganda game, which suggests that at some level there is more knowledge than is in the public domain. Even today the BBC was poo pooing the idea that this was not of animal origin, though it did not say “not of laboratory animal origin”.
Why are the media not making good in depth investigative programmes that explore gain of function research and the ethics and validity of performing such research? Why are educated, knowledgeable, dissenting voices not heard on mainstream media?
Very good point Kenneth …… The Chinese economic miracle has been impressive, but many of them are still dirt poor. The daughter of my neighbour has been working in China, Speaks mandarin, and shared a story gaining some traction – that animals used for experiments in the laboratory were irresponsibly discarded …. then sold to wet markets. God knows what the truth is, but it seems that the situation in that country is still primitive enough to allow conditions, where this MIGHT happen.
Kenneth MacKillop
3 years ago
It took many years to collect most of what is known about SARS-1. It will be the same for SARS-2, but there is likely to be far more deception and interference and lack of cooperation from the CCP this time. Evidence from within mainland China is likely to be covered up or destroyed or otherwise lacking.
After what I would think should be several years, individuals will be able to form their own opinions as to origin. I doubt any comparable evidence to that of the civets and horseshoe bats found in Guangdong will ever emerge in this case. The CCP has been lying and covering up since early on for sure. But this is not evidence of a lab origin in and of itself. They sure did seem to be taken by surprise by the spread in late 2019, but maybe some of the commies were just overconfident earlier that it could be contained.
The CCP will act in a dishonest and immoral manner without reservation, regardless. That is the nature of such a communist party — its preservation, and monopoly, of power towers over all other considerations. The CCP is a malign entity for the world at large, but if the new virus was at least partly engineered in the virology lab this seems like an unfortunate and very damaging but understandable accident. The behavior of the CCP has been selfish and evil regardless of what the virus’s origins were, but I would expect nothing else. The rest of the world probably could have been given many months more of preparation time if not for the CCP. Possibly few, if any, countries and leaders would have heeded an earlier warning anyway.
No! You can form any opinion you like just as long as you identify it as an opinion!
Lindsay Gatward
3 years ago
China’s hugely successful and brilliantly stealthy takeover of so much of the World has been so exposed by this virus – A key moment was the attack on Australia for asking for an investigation – That attack was surely a strategic error of growing magnitude and domino effect – You have to wonder if one of the dominoes is the collapse of the Chinese economy and would the next one be the CCP and what would be the collateral damage of its writhing demise?
Raymond Hayes
3 years ago
There is no mention in the article of Nobel laureate Luc Montagnier who accused biologists of having created SARS-CoV-2 in a lab.
Luc Montagnier, won the Nobel Prize in 2008 for his work on HIV said that “the virus has come out of a laboratory in Wuhan, which has been specialising in these types of coronaviruses since the beginning of the 2000s”.
Dave Smith
3 years ago
Me i just do not believe in coincidences. Started in Wuhan. Labs in Wuhan. Join the dots.
Why not..? This looks like a very true co-incidence..! As in co-ops..! No..?
Kenneth MacKillop
3 years ago
As a technical comment, SARS-CoV-2 seems to have chimeric characteristics. And these could very plausibly have been derived from typical lab work that is known to have been done at the Wuhan lab for many years, and indeed with collaboration by researchers from several Western countries including the US at times.
But a chimera could also have been generated in wild host species (including humans, quite possibly), and this is common as a general phenomenon. One can argue, at the detailed level of the RNA features, about likelihoods or probabilities. But nobody can absolutely rule out a natural cause — nobody in the world knows enough to do this.
Careful and truly knowledgeable scientists will frame any of their statements appropriately. But so many have not — they are not to be trusted under any circumstances.
Until you know, you don’t know and even if a wild animal with the original virus was found, you would not know if it had been intentionally infected. It is indeed strange that everything originated from one zoonotic infection and that there has not been more seep from a wild (or domesticated) population.
robertbutterwick
3 years ago
As the virus spreads it mutates, thanks to which it’s possible to track back the source of any infection. The UK now knows that of the 1356 patient zero’s in the UK only 1 came from China. The main sources appear to be from Spain, Italy and France. Of course all the infections ultimately originate from China, so it should be possible to establish who was the original patient zero. The reluctance of China to be transparent speaks volumes. I’m sure patient zero has already been identified, but will now never be revealed.
slorter
3 years ago
This all happened during a global trade war between a declining empire and a rising economic power ! It is a politically charged environment and most media play to that theme!
The world is a global one movement of people is unprecedented and the west has fallen in love with the cheap labor they have opened up with the globalization under neoliberalism. Capitalists had no problem neglecting and abandoning their own work force for the global party and should bare a significant responsibility for the world they thrust their own people.
These pandemics can start anywhere as the swine and Spanish flu started in North America. The latter being transported by American soldiers during the first world war.
I read an interesting piece of historical research recently that suggested that the Spanish Flu may have had its origin in a vaccination delivered to troops before they set out to Europe. I am however wary of believing anything nowadays without sight of hard empirical evidence and even then I want to be able to dissect it.
Gilles Demaneuf
3 years ago
If someone just awoke from a 6 months coma today and was told about the whole covid19 story, most likely their first reaction would be: ‘What, you are telling me that nobody knows where it comes from, even the Chinese? Seriously!’
– The official Chinese story is that it happened and nobody knows how. And thanks but don’t ask, or something bad may happen to you. – The Western reaction is too often that even hinting that the virus could be the result of an accident must be a conspiracy theory pushed out by some kind of crazed Trump worshipper.
There is no need to be defensive. Nor is there any need to bring everything back to Trump. But what we can do is just crunch a few probabilities.
What we know for sure is that (1) the outbreak started in Wuhan, (2) the market does not seem to be the source, (3) there is no horseshoe bats colony in Hubei and (4) there were no bats sold at the market.
This leaves us with a few possibilities: a. Some bat to human transmission happened in Wuhan b. Some animal (not bat) to human transmission happened in Wuhan. c. Some bat to human transmission happened in South China (where the bat colonies are) d. Some animal (not bat) to human transmission happened somewhere else than Wuhan
Let’s look at these: a. Since there are no population of bats in Wuhan and none were sold at the market, what were the bats doing there? How did they get there?
Clearly they must have been transported. If it was for food then the chance of these bats to go infectious in Wuhan and only Wuhan is rather small ““ they are many other cities were you would expect bats to be sold. Wuhan has 1% of China’s population, so 1% is a good probability to start with. Hence most likely not transported for food. So most likely transported for lab work. And since Wuhan is the Chinese were the lab work is concentrated, it would make sense.
b. Same argument as above. If the animals are transported for food, then why Wuhan of all Chinese cities? The probability of such an event is small. So most likely not-for-food. Which means lab animals. Likely animals collected close to South China bat caves.
c. If the bat-to-human transmission happened in South China, then why did the outbreak happened in Wuhan only of all Chinese cities? The probability of such an event is very small. The only thing that would select Wuhan as likely end destination is again lab work. So that would be someone collecting bats getting infected at the collection point.
d. Same argument as above. Why would again the infected human then pop up exclusively in Wuhan of all Chinese cities? Most likely scenario: because the animals, rodent, whatever were part of a study in pathogenes ““ where Wuhan was again having a leading role.
Conclusion: Whatever way you look at it, the fact that it happened in Wuhan and only in Wuhan ““ where there is no bat population ““ points back to a collection, transport or lab accident.
Tony Edwards
3 years ago
I saw myself the proximity of chickens being killed close to vegetable stalls in Guangzou city some years ago blood probably on the vegetables. As Dr Greger in an article at nutrition.org has at length described factory farming is dangerous (as well as inhumane) a very high risk for the transfer of diseases. The meticulous levels of bio security needed in huge communities of poultry kept indoors are unlikely to be met in developing countries, difficult even here. Wild meat so prized in SE Asia is frequently coming from crudely caged animals kept in appalling conditions in the African bush, maybe carrying disease. Foods with anti viral benefits in particular raw garlic may be protective unfortunately there is no profit in the thorough testing of this. In times of plague in China mixtures of garlic and wormwood and other herbs have been consumed for protection as did the four grave robbers at the time of the black death in French city.
Lee Johnson
3 years ago
Too many coincidences.
Charles Rogerson
3 years ago
I highly recommend this article by Yuri Deigin on the genealogy of Covid-19. It is long and difficult, but I think many educated laymen could understand his argument, which is that it appears that a bit of DNA from another virus, which made the virus ‘spike’ much more effective against humans, was inserted, either through evolution in the wild or in a lab, into Covid-19.
The article is very, very detailed, and you will learn a lot about virology. Deigin’s conclusion is that the ‘lab origin’ hypothesis cannot be dismissed, but that, although there are several indications of lab involvement, it cannot be proven.
Another note: if the edit/addition were artificial, it would likely be lost during mutation rather quickly, which might account for the observations that Covid-19 seems to be becoming less virulent. The rate of new deaths seems to be dropping rapidly worldwide.
chris j
3 years ago
Until the guilty party raise their hands and admit their wrongdoing (highly unlikely to happen) the issue will continue to grow. China’s sabre rattling at Australia I think is evidence of some smoke trails, possibly from the Covid gun. I think we’re being set up for the third and final world war. And I so wanted to go out blasting the alien bugs (a la Starship Troopers) rather than at the behest of the grey men in power here on earth. Still, Ma nature won’t miss the human race when we’ve smited all the creeds and colours that make up the hairless apes.
jonathan21s
3 years ago
So this virus has suddenly evolved to a state of such sophistication that it is enabled it to efficiently and effortlessly envade not only the human body but many different human organs in the human body and also to multiply within the human body with lethal efficiency. Would natural evolution in nature have suddenly pulled off something like this?? If so which virus is next going to suddenly achieve such highly specific changes targetting itself specifically on the human body?
I think I prefer this version of events but then again it probably won’t play well on here given the knee jerk reaction to anything MSM which is ironic really, given the list of contributors to UnHerd. Back in the mid-70’s when I was doing a History degree, there was talk of two ways of looking at the subject. The c**k-up approach or the conspiracy approach. I have always believed the former to be the most likely and definitely more interesting.
Well, I’m with you, Philip, re the c**k-up theory of history, although The Guardian seems very wedded to the idea that everything is a wicked Tory conspiracy, preferably traceable back to Dominic Cummings.
c**k-up I hope, but what was the aim of gain of function research? If the intention was to make a vaccine, then was there an intention to control by only making the vaccine available to conformers, or just a simple money spinning exercise? What sort of c**k-up are we looking at?
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
well Wuhan happens to have most ”Artificial Virus” Biologists on the planet .If it isn’t a Bioweapon,Why 1) did China have Genome within 7 days 2) Why haven’t they shared their Genome Map with Western Scientists? 3) Anyone having pangolin &chips I dont buy it spread that Gateway. 4) West wouldn’t have been told anything without South korea, Taiwan detecting SARS2 in early January. a good documentary Was on ”Russia today”….If SARS3 happens at end of this Year ,will we be told it was ”An Accident” Again. China has bought up Rainforests and Western companies under the smokescreen ..Time will tell
Andrew Martin
3 years ago
Listen to Chris Martenson on You tube Coronavirus: are our Scientists lying to us. You’ll be a virologist after this. He goes through things methodically. For instance did you know they can make a synthetic version of the virus? Despite many America scientists claim it was natural Chris has taken them to task to know how that Furin cleavage site appeared in this virus as it does not exist in any in any other member of the Coronavirus family.
Bill Bolwell
3 years ago
Look up Chimera in Wikipedia. It is a mix of genetics. If you have a bone marrow transplant you become a chimera of your DNA and the donor’s DNA. They say Bill Gates RNA vaccine will turn people into chimeras. SCAREY. An article I read said the recipient became virually all the donor’s DNA.
Tests for COVID-19 aim to detect the causative virus, SARS-CoV-2, or an immune response to SARS-CoV-2.
The reliability of COVID-19 tests is uncertain due to the limited evidence base. Available evidence mainly comes from symptomatic patients, and their clinical role in detecting asymptomatic carriers is unclear.
andysocial21
3 years ago
Well there is no Conspiracy involved in this one – I totally recommend a ridiculously researched history of electricity – ‘Invisible Rainbow’ – it would be criminal to avoid this though! (No, it is NOT 5g)
The author of that book comes across as sonething of a krank unfortunately…
stuuey
3 years ago
I’d like to know why the US were funding research on Corona viruses in Chinese labs?
Neil John
3 years ago
Working in a class 2 lab, with potential class 3 pathogens in unscreened cadaver samples being a possibility, I’ve had enough conflict with lazy, ‘it’s beneath me’, Chinese s-too-dense who refuse to clean up after themselves in the past. Leaving samples that by law must be autoclaved before disposal for others to clean up is bad enough, but some simply rinsed the lab ware out in the lab sink relying on the sewerage plant down the road to deal with anything nasty, that said Pirbright’s class 4 labs were leaking pathogens like a sieve for years too…
Bill Bolwell
3 years ago
If SARS2 is from the Wuhan lab, it came from USA originally. Bill Gates and Fauci are from USAnot China.
Bill Bolwell
3 years ago
There are two types of test. They don’t seem to be accurate. So what is the point? They seem to rely on symptons then say people often don’t have symptoms. Some people say the virus has never been truly identified and hence discovered. It seems to me they know you have it if you get the bad symptons.
carolstaines8
3 years ago
So, several questions have not made it to the public forum: Q what were the scientists trying to do when they were tampering with, probably, an existing virus? Q to what end were they working on it? Who was funding the research?
Neil Colledge
3 years ago
This is a complex and dirty business, the truth of which will probably take years to unravel. In April of this year, I contracted a moderate manifestation of Covid-19. Mercifully I survived but because of what happened to my own physiognomy, find it very difficult to believe that this is a naturally evolved coronavirus. As in many (alleged) 9/11-type, false-flag operations, the truth will always end up more complicated than (one-trick pony) conspiracy theories from Alex Jones, David Icke and Russel Brand.. The Chinese are subtle, clever, devious, sensitive and proud and will want to avoid having to pay billions in reparations to families who lost loved ones to the virus. American virologists would have wanted to be involved in research at Wuhan, just in order to keep an eye on The Chinese (which is understandable). Predictably, mainstream media will publish whatever information is desirable to those who sponsor them (or grant their annual broadcasting licences). The whole thing is a filthy cesspool of right/left wing opinionated dogma, quite deliberate misinformation, watered down truthfulness or downright lies – from ALL parties. My own reaction to this multitude of information on the web is to focus on the writings, thoughts of, and youtube interviews with just three people ….. Yannis Varoufakis, Noam Chomsky and Johann Galtung. This struck me as a reasonably good way of distilling information & simplifying understanding of what now invades people’s minds, souls, perceptions and bodies.
Neil Colledge
3 years ago
The recovery from Covid-19 became in my case, the most interesting part of it’s unwelcome twelve-week invasion. It took two full months for the cough to depart, two months for taste, smell, appetite to return. Although grateful for the resulting weight-loss, an unpleasant salty taste lingers in the mouth, stubbornly refusing to depart. There was a small published piece (subsequently buried) by a group of young scientists, comparing the Covid virus to the HIV virus. The immune system is weakened, lung tissues are gratuitously destroyed & coughed up by bucket-fulls. Whatever disease your body is prone to, the Covid will act as a conduit for this disease, helping the body to turn against it’s host. This (at any rate) is exactly what it felt like for me. This experience was entirely new in manifestation, infection & departure, I’ve never experienced anything like it. A viral bouillabaisse this clever and sophisticated was created in a laboratory. How could it possibly be perceived otherwise? One of the reasons for stepping back from other discussion channels, is the fast developing rabid, anti-China, warmongering rhetoric, pointing the finger of blame uniquely on them for cursing us with this virus. To aggressively & belligerently challenge China in this way would be counter-productive and will produce terrible results. They are a proud and sensitive race and their recent economic achievements are nothing short of miraculous. They are plagued by an Achilles Heel of poor food hygiene and inadequate food distribution. The paradigm shift of taking home a tortured dead squirrel covered in it’s own excrement or bringing home a Labrador’s head for a family meal …….. to bringing home a vacuum packed joint of beef or chicken, hygienically wrapped, stamped with a trusted seal of approval from a government agency, trusted & verified, is a huge cultural reincarnation but it HAS to be done. The world cannot afford to get sick every year because it hasn’t … With all our faults & failings, the west has achieved this paradigm shift. Notwithstanding the odd dumb idea concerning chlorinated chicken (non merci), our food hygiene is world-class. We can gently teach the Chinese how to achieve a tremendous health benefit, that would be a win-win for all parties. Considering their current situation, it would not be too much to ask that they cough-up an eight-figure sum for advice from us, priceless to their future. All we need is a diplomatic genius, non-judgmental, fluent in mandarin, with the ability to sell this idea to them. The old-guard is far too set in their ways for this. Trump is unquestionably NOT the man ….. Smart money should be on a woman perhaps? The question …. is who? Unless I’ve got this backwards – the food hygiene/food health/sustainable hygiene card, is among the strongest we have to play in dealing with China. We should find one of our very smartest negotiators and play this card brilliantly, respectfully, perceptively, with love and respect.
mlipkin
3 years ago
Good piece but in fact circumstantial evidence for a laboratory leak is overwhelming.
viz The outbreak is in Wuhan and is similar to a bat coronavirus
In a 2018 study by batwoman Shi et al, 218 villagers living near bat caves in Yunnan had blood tests for bat coronaviruses: 6 individuals were positive for (non pandemic) coronaviruses. There was a negative set of controls: 240 people from Wuhan – why Wuhan? – there are no bats there and so the researchers considered it impossible they would have been exposed to bat coronaviruses.
“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” Orwell
So yes, there is evidence for the leak theory. It is just so simple that no one can see it.
Richard Slack
3 years ago
5 minutes of my life I will not get back. At the end of it all we know is that we do not know yet. It will not help us fight the virus though it might help Trump’s reelection prospect to continue speculating, if that is your intention
andysocial21
3 years ago
The incredibly well researched history of electricity called ‘The Invisible Rainbow’ will give you a completely different view of the current crisis there’s no conspiracy just intellectual neglect
Gio Con
3 years ago
You cite nothing but coincidences–no new scientific studies. The vast majority of virologists and epidemiologists are in agreement with Kristian G. Andersen, et al, (The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2) that the virus originated, not in, but near the Wuhan market, that it was transmitted from bats via an intermediary animal, and that it was neither created nor manipulated in a lab.
Related to all this, one story the MSM studiously ignored was that of a Chinese person attempting to smuggle various SARS viruses into the US a couple of years ago. He was caught at the airport after initially denying that he had any vials in his luggage. He then admitted that he was taking them to a scientific colleague at a US college. For every one of these people that is caught, I would imagine there are plenty more getting through.
But why?
The virus originated from the only city in China with a Biosafety level 4 laboratory. If it occurred naturally, consider the probability that it would happen to arise in that location. I don’t think you need to look any further than that.
One thing that still puzzles me a bit is how there could have been so many cases associated with the wet market if the initial contagion did not originate there.
That is, unless all of that was indeed a fraudulent fabrication on the part of the CCP after all. Since the recently publicized notion (out of Harvard, of all places) that SARS-CoV-2 was already spreading in Aug. 2019 in Wuhan, it seems more plausible that the entire wet-market thing was fab’d, but I had been initially surprised how well accepted this claim appeared to be by CCP critics.
I will have to take a look at the MIT/Harvard study, but I do not see how it could possibly “disprove” that the wet market was a source of the virus. It could “suggest”, but not disprove, based upon genetic analysis of known bat viruses and human CoVs, etc.
One thing is for certain — any individual, regardless of credentials, that has ever made a claim that a lab origin is not possible is either an ignoramus or a fraud. And there have been many who have made such statements. There have been too many experts shooting off their self-interested mouths with this pandemic, be they epidemiologists or virologists or whatever. There have been very, very few truly knowledgeable and honest or disinterested people speaking publicly about any aspect of this pandemic — it is been remarkable in that respect I think. Both leaders and experts have been shown to be fools or worse IMO, but I reserve a special disdain for the so-called experts.
There is too much Grant money involved to get the truth.
When the USA, France, Georgia, Italy, Switzerland… are all in bed doing gain of function research, who in the know is going to tell tales? It takes a bravely foolish person to do that.
The media (if the BBC is anything to go by) has been playing a propaganda game, which suggests that at some level there is more knowledge than is in the public domain. Even today the BBC was poo pooing the idea that this was not of animal origin, though it did not say “not of laboratory animal origin”.
Why are the media not making good in depth investigative programmes that explore gain of function research and the ethics and validity of performing such research? Why are educated, knowledgeable, dissenting voices not heard on mainstream media?
Very good point Kenneth …… The Chinese economic miracle has been impressive, but many of them are still dirt poor. The daughter of my neighbour has been working in China, Speaks mandarin, and shared a story gaining some traction – that animals used for experiments in the laboratory were irresponsibly discarded …. then sold to wet markets. God knows what the truth is, but it seems that the situation in that country is still primitive enough to allow conditions, where this MIGHT happen.
It took many years to collect most of what is known about SARS-1. It will be the same for SARS-2, but there is likely to be far more deception and interference and lack of cooperation from the CCP this time. Evidence from within mainland China is likely to be covered up or destroyed or otherwise lacking.
After what I would think should be several years, individuals will be able to form their own opinions as to origin. I doubt any comparable evidence to that of the civets and horseshoe bats found in Guangdong will ever emerge in this case. The CCP has been lying and covering up since early on for sure. But this is not evidence of a lab origin in and of itself. They sure did seem to be taken by surprise by the spread in late 2019, but maybe some of the commies were just overconfident earlier that it could be contained.
The CCP will act in a dishonest and immoral manner without reservation, regardless. That is the nature of such a communist party — its preservation, and monopoly, of power towers over all other considerations.
The CCP is a malign entity for the world at large, but if the new virus was at least partly engineered in the virology lab this seems like an unfortunate and very damaging but understandable accident. The behavior of the CCP has been selfish and evil regardless of what the virus’s origins were, but I would expect nothing else. The rest of the world probably could have been given many months more of preparation time if not for the CCP. Possibly few, if any, countries and leaders would have heeded an earlier warning anyway.
individuals will be able to form their own opinions as to origin.
That is part of the problem!
I don’t get your point. Are you really implying that individuals should not be able to form their own opinions..?
No! You can form any opinion you like just as long as you identify it as an opinion!
China’s hugely successful and brilliantly stealthy takeover of so much of the World has been so exposed by this virus – A key moment was the attack on Australia for asking for an investigation – That attack was surely a strategic error of growing magnitude and domino effect – You have to wonder if one of the dominoes is the collapse of the Chinese economy and would the next one be the CCP and what would be the collateral damage of its writhing demise?
There is no mention in the article of Nobel laureate Luc Montagnier who accused biologists of having created SARS-CoV-2 in a lab.
Luc Montagnier, won the Nobel Prize in 2008 for his work on HIV said that “the virus has come out of a laboratory in Wuhan, which has been specialising in these types of coronaviruses since the beginning of the 2000s”.
Me i just do not believe in coincidences. Started in Wuhan. Labs in Wuhan. Join the dots.
Why not..? This looks like a very true co-incidence..! As in co-ops..! No..?
As a technical comment, SARS-CoV-2 seems to have chimeric characteristics. And these could very plausibly have been derived from typical lab work that is known to have been done at the Wuhan lab for many years, and indeed with collaboration by researchers from several Western countries including the US at times.
But a chimera could also have been generated in wild host species (including humans, quite possibly), and this is common as a general phenomenon. One can argue, at the detailed level of the RNA features, about likelihoods or probabilities. But nobody can absolutely rule out a natural cause — nobody in the world knows enough to do this.
Careful and truly knowledgeable scientists will frame any of their statements appropriately. But so many have not — they are not to be trusted under any circumstances.
Until you know, you don’t know and even if a wild animal with the original virus was found, you would not know if it had been intentionally infected. It is indeed strange that everything originated from one zoonotic infection and that there has not been more seep from a wild (or domesticated) population.
As the virus spreads it mutates, thanks to which it’s possible to track back the source of any infection. The UK now knows that of the 1356 patient zero’s in the UK only 1 came from China. The main sources appear to be from Spain, Italy and France. Of course all the infections ultimately originate from China, so it should be possible to establish who was the original patient zero. The reluctance of China to be transparent speaks volumes. I’m sure patient zero has already been identified, but will now never be revealed.
This all happened during a global trade war between a declining empire and a rising economic power ! It is a politically charged environment and most media play to that theme!
The world is a global one movement of people is unprecedented and the west has fallen in love with the cheap labor they have opened up with the globalization under neoliberalism. Capitalists had no problem neglecting and abandoning their own work force for the global party and should bare a significant responsibility for the world they thrust their own people.
These pandemics can start anywhere as the swine and Spanish flu started in North America. The latter being transported by American soldiers during the first world war.
I read an interesting piece of historical research recently that suggested that the Spanish Flu may have had its origin in a vaccination delivered to troops before they set out to Europe. I am however wary of believing anything nowadays without sight of hard empirical evidence and even then I want to be able to dissect it.
If someone just awoke from a 6 months coma today and was told about the whole covid19 story, most likely their first reaction would be: ‘What, you are telling me that nobody knows where it comes from, even the Chinese? Seriously!’
– The official Chinese story is that it happened and nobody knows how. And thanks but don’t ask, or something bad may happen to you.
– The Western reaction is too often that even hinting that the virus could be the result of an accident must be a conspiracy theory pushed out by some kind of crazed Trump worshipper.
There is no need to be defensive. Nor is there any need to bring everything back to Trump. But what we can do is just crunch a few probabilities.
What we know for sure is that (1) the outbreak started in Wuhan, (2) the market does not seem to be the source, (3) there is no horseshoe bats colony in Hubei and (4) there were no bats sold at the market.
This leaves us with a few possibilities:
a. Some bat to human transmission happened in Wuhan
b. Some animal (not bat) to human transmission happened in Wuhan.
c. Some bat to human transmission happened in South China (where the bat colonies are)
d. Some animal (not bat) to human transmission happened somewhere else than Wuhan
Let’s look at these:
a. Since there are no population of bats in Wuhan and none were sold at the market, what were the bats doing there? How did they get there?
Clearly they must have been transported. If it was for food then the chance of these bats to go infectious in Wuhan and only Wuhan is rather small ““ they are many other cities were you would expect bats to be sold. Wuhan has 1% of China’s population, so 1% is a good probability to start with.
Hence most likely not transported for food. So most likely transported for lab work. And since Wuhan is the Chinese were the lab work is concentrated, it would make sense.
b. Same argument as above. If the animals are transported for food, then why Wuhan of all Chinese cities? The probability of such an event is small. So most likely not-for-food. Which means lab animals. Likely animals collected close to South China bat caves.
c. If the bat-to-human transmission happened in South China, then why did the outbreak happened in Wuhan only of all Chinese cities?
The probability of such an event is very small. The only thing that would select Wuhan as likely end destination is again lab work. So that would be someone collecting bats getting infected at the collection point.
d. Same argument as above. Why would again the infected human then pop up exclusively in Wuhan of all Chinese cities?
Most likely scenario: because the animals, rodent, whatever were part of a study in pathogenes ““ where Wuhan was again having a leading role.
Conclusion:
Whatever way you look at it, the fact that it happened in Wuhan and only in Wuhan ““ where there is no bat population ““ points back to a collection, transport or lab accident.
I saw myself the proximity of chickens being killed close to vegetable stalls in Guangzou city some years ago blood probably on the vegetables. As Dr Greger in an article at nutrition.org has at length described factory farming is dangerous (as well as inhumane) a very high risk for the transfer of diseases. The meticulous levels of bio security needed in huge communities of poultry kept indoors are unlikely to be met in developing countries, difficult even here. Wild meat so prized in SE Asia is frequently coming from crudely caged animals kept in appalling conditions in the African bush, maybe carrying disease. Foods with anti viral benefits in particular raw garlic may be protective unfortunately there is no profit in the thorough testing of this. In times of plague in China mixtures of garlic and wormwood and other herbs have been consumed for protection as did the four grave robbers at the time of the black death in French city.
Too many coincidences.
I highly recommend this article by Yuri Deigin on the genealogy of Covid-19. It is long and difficult, but I think many educated laymen could understand his argument, which is that it appears that a bit of DNA from another virus, which made the virus ‘spike’ much more effective against humans, was inserted, either through evolution in the wild or in a lab, into Covid-19.
The article is very, very detailed, and you will learn a lot about virology. Deigin’s conclusion is that the ‘lab origin’ hypothesis cannot be dismissed, but that, although there are several indications of lab involvement, it cannot be proven.
https://medium.com/@yuridei…
Another note: if the edit/addition were artificial, it would likely be lost during mutation rather quickly, which might account for the observations that Covid-19 seems to be becoming less virulent. The rate of new deaths seems to be dropping rapidly worldwide.
Until the guilty party raise their hands and admit their wrongdoing (highly unlikely to happen) the issue will continue to grow. China’s sabre rattling at Australia I think is evidence of some smoke trails, possibly from the Covid gun.
I think we’re being set up for the third and final world war.
And I so wanted to go out blasting the alien bugs (a la Starship Troopers) rather than at the behest of the grey men in power here on earth.
Still, Ma nature won’t miss the human race when we’ve smited all the creeds and colours that make up the hairless apes.
So this virus has suddenly evolved to a state of such sophistication that it is enabled it to efficiently and effortlessly envade not only the human body but many different human organs in the human body and also to multiply within the human body with lethal efficiency. Would natural evolution in nature have suddenly pulled off something like this?? If so which virus is next going to suddenly achieve such highly specific changes targetting itself specifically on the human body?
https://www.theguardian.com…
I think I prefer this version of events but then again it probably won’t play well on here given the knee jerk reaction to anything MSM which is ironic really, given the list of contributors to UnHerd. Back in the mid-70’s when I was doing a History degree, there was talk of two ways of looking at the subject. The c**k-up approach or the conspiracy approach. I have always believed the former to be the most likely and definitely more interesting.
Well, I’m with you, Philip, re the c**k-up theory of history, although The Guardian seems very wedded to the idea that everything is a wicked Tory conspiracy, preferably traceable back to Dominic Cummings.
Lab leak is a cockup
c**k-up I hope, but what was the aim of gain of function research? If the intention was to make a vaccine, then was there an intention to control by only making the vaccine available to conformers, or just a simple money spinning exercise? What sort of c**k-up are we looking at?
well Wuhan happens to have most ”Artificial Virus” Biologists on the planet .If it isn’t a Bioweapon,Why 1) did China have Genome within 7 days 2) Why haven’t they shared their Genome Map with Western Scientists? 3) Anyone having pangolin &chips I dont buy it spread that Gateway. 4) West wouldn’t have been told anything without South korea, Taiwan detecting SARS2 in early January. a good documentary Was on ”Russia today”….If SARS3 happens at end of this Year ,will we be told it was ”An Accident” Again. China has bought up Rainforests and Western companies under the smokescreen ..Time will tell
Listen to Chris Martenson on You tube Coronavirus: are our Scientists lying to us. You’ll be a virologist after this. He goes through things methodically. For instance did you know they can make a synthetic version of the virus? Despite many America scientists claim it was natural Chris has taken them to task to know how that Furin cleavage site appeared in this virus as it does not exist in any in any other member of the Coronavirus family.
Look up Chimera in Wikipedia. It is a mix of genetics. If you have a bone marrow transplant you become a chimera of your DNA and the donor’s DNA. They say Bill Gates RNA vaccine will turn people into chimeras. SCAREY. An article I read said the recipient became virually all the donor’s DNA.
Australian government information:
https://www.tga.gov.au/covi…
Tests for COVID-19 aim to detect the causative virus, SARS-CoV-2, or an immune response to SARS-CoV-2.
The reliability of COVID-19 tests is uncertain due to the limited evidence base. Available evidence mainly comes from symptomatic patients, and their clinical role in detecting asymptomatic carriers is unclear.
Well there is no Conspiracy involved in this one – I totally recommend a ridiculously researched history of electricity – ‘Invisible Rainbow’ – it would be criminal to avoid this though! (No, it is NOT 5g)
The author of that book comes across as sonething of a krank unfortunately…
I’d like to know why the US were funding research on Corona viruses in Chinese labs?
Working in a class 2 lab, with potential class 3 pathogens in unscreened cadaver samples being a possibility, I’ve had enough conflict with lazy, ‘it’s beneath me’, Chinese s-too-dense who refuse to clean up after themselves in the past. Leaving samples that by law must be autoclaved before disposal for others to clean up is bad enough, but some simply rinsed the lab ware out in the lab sink relying on the sewerage plant down the road to deal with anything nasty, that said Pirbright’s class 4 labs were leaking pathogens like a sieve for years too…
If SARS2 is from the Wuhan lab, it came from USA originally. Bill Gates and Fauci are from USAnot China.
There are two types of test. They don’t seem to be accurate. So what is the point? They seem to rely on symptons then say people often don’t have symptoms. Some people say the virus has never been truly identified and hence discovered. It seems to me they know you have it if you get the bad symptons.
So, several questions have not made it to the public forum: Q what were the scientists trying to do when they were tampering with, probably, an existing virus? Q to what end were they working on it? Who was funding the research?
This is a complex and dirty business, the truth of which will probably take years to unravel. In April of this year, I contracted a moderate manifestation of Covid-19. Mercifully I survived but because of what happened to my own physiognomy, find it very difficult to believe that this is a naturally evolved coronavirus.
As in many (alleged) 9/11-type, false-flag operations, the truth will always end up more complicated than (one-trick pony) conspiracy theories from Alex Jones, David Icke and Russel Brand..
The Chinese are subtle, clever, devious, sensitive and proud and will want to avoid having to pay billions in reparations to families who lost loved ones to the virus. American virologists would have wanted to be involved in research at Wuhan, just in order to keep an eye on The Chinese (which is understandable).
Predictably, mainstream media will publish whatever information is desirable to those who sponsor them (or grant their annual broadcasting licences).
The whole thing is a filthy cesspool of right/left wing opinionated dogma, quite deliberate misinformation, watered down truthfulness or downright lies – from ALL parties.
My own reaction to this multitude of information on the web is to focus on the writings, thoughts of, and youtube interviews with just three people ….. Yannis Varoufakis, Noam Chomsky and Johann Galtung. This struck me as a reasonably good way of distilling information & simplifying understanding of what now invades people’s minds, souls, perceptions and bodies.
The recovery from Covid-19 became in my case, the most interesting part of it’s unwelcome twelve-week invasion. It took two full months for the cough to depart, two months for taste, smell, appetite to return. Although grateful for the resulting weight-loss, an unpleasant salty taste lingers in the mouth, stubbornly refusing to depart. There was a small published piece (subsequently buried) by a group of young scientists, comparing the Covid virus to the HIV virus. The immune system is weakened, lung tissues are gratuitously destroyed & coughed up by bucket-fulls. Whatever disease your body is prone to, the Covid will act as a conduit for this disease, helping the body to turn against it’s host. This (at any rate) is exactly what it felt like for me. This experience was entirely new in manifestation, infection & departure, I’ve never experienced anything like it.
A viral bouillabaisse this clever and sophisticated was created in a laboratory. How could it possibly be perceived otherwise?
One of the reasons for stepping back from other discussion channels, is the fast developing rabid, anti-China, warmongering rhetoric, pointing the finger of blame uniquely on them for cursing us with this virus. To aggressively & belligerently challenge China in this way would be counter-productive and will produce terrible results. They are a proud and sensitive race and their recent economic achievements are nothing short of miraculous.
They are plagued by an Achilles Heel of poor food hygiene and inadequate food distribution. The paradigm shift of taking home a tortured dead squirrel covered in it’s own excrement or bringing home a Labrador’s head for a family meal …….. to bringing home a vacuum packed joint of beef or chicken, hygienically wrapped, stamped with a trusted seal of approval from a government agency, trusted & verified, is a huge cultural reincarnation but it HAS to be done. The world cannot afford to get sick every year because it hasn’t …
With all our faults & failings, the west has achieved this paradigm shift. Notwithstanding the odd dumb idea concerning chlorinated chicken (non merci), our food hygiene is world-class. We can gently teach the Chinese how to achieve a tremendous health benefit, that would be a win-win for all parties. Considering their current situation, it would not be too much to ask that they cough-up an eight-figure sum for advice from us, priceless to their future.
All we need is a diplomatic genius, non-judgmental, fluent in mandarin, with the ability to sell this idea to them. The old-guard is far too set in their ways for this. Trump is unquestionably NOT the man ….. Smart money should be on a woman perhaps? The question …. is who?
Unless I’ve got this backwards – the food hygiene/food health/sustainable hygiene card, is among the strongest we have to play in dealing with China.
We should find one of our very smartest negotiators and play this card brilliantly, respectfully, perceptively, with love and respect.
Good piece but in fact circumstantial evidence for a laboratory leak is overwhelming.
viz The outbreak is in Wuhan and is similar to a bat coronavirus
In a 2018 study by batwoman Shi et al, 218 villagers living near bat caves in Yunnan had blood tests for bat coronaviruses: 6 individuals were positive for (non pandemic) coronaviruses. There was a negative set of controls: 240 people from Wuhan – why Wuhan? – there are no bats there and so the researchers considered it impossible they would have been exposed to bat coronaviruses.
“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” Orwell
So yes, there is evidence for the leak theory. It is just so simple that no one can see it.
5 minutes of my life I will not get back. At the end of it all we know is that we do not know yet. It will not help us fight the virus though it might help Trump’s reelection prospect to continue speculating, if that is your intention
The incredibly well researched history of electricity called ‘The Invisible Rainbow’ will give you a completely different view of the current crisis there’s no conspiracy just intellectual neglect
You cite nothing but coincidences–no new scientific studies. The vast majority of virologists and epidemiologists are in agreement with Kristian G. Andersen, et al, (The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2) that the virus originated, not in, but near the Wuhan market, that it was transmitted from bats via an intermediary animal, and that it was neither created nor manipulated in a lab.