Why not look at the only country that never closed the schools? The children in Sweden are doing fine and the teachers are not more sick than the average workforce.
If you are referring to Sweden, only schools for those up to age 16 were kept open. Nevertheless, for people under 20, it appears so far only 1 virus death in Sweden. Fewer than 180 deaths for those under 60, so far.
Likewise, in the UK there has been 1 death linked to Covid in the age group 5-14, which fully covers Primary school. Just 1, out of 35,000.
And half the country is afraid to send their children back to school, because it is too risky. How is it possible that so many people are unable to think rationally about this ? What have we done ?
Super answer. Her in Canada the same stupidity prevails esp in Ontario…children are not dying of covid and are not spreading it. The reaction is emotional and ignorant.
I think we agree that the younger you are, the less you are affected by covid-19. I think where there is contradictory science, is, how ‘good’ children are at passing it on. Remember, govt says social distancing impossible in primary schools.
Of course it’s safe. More to the point, it was never ‘unsafe’. On the plus side, the sickening attitude of the (state) teachers and their unions is laid bare once again for all to see. Happy to stay home on full pay while private school pupils continue to be educated and get ahead. As we have known forever, they have no integrity whatsoever.
Hmm. A comment seemingly lifted from the front page of the Daily Mail. I’m not a teacher, I know lots of teachers. The two who live opposite have been at school every day since the schools “closed”, they were in all of the Easter holidays. They are at a state school. The local public school has been closed, not taking “key worker” children.
I am sorry to be a bit ad hominem in my reply but you really dont seem to know that of which you speak – though maybe you are just feeling a bit grumpy. Schools have been open throughout with teachers rostered to go in and look after children of other key workers including in some cases toddlers in nappies. The same teachers are also setting and marking work, keeping on touch with school students and their parents, buying food for many whose vouchers aren’t working, trying to figure out how to minimise risk. Oh and also dying.
Michael Dawson
4 years ago
Before the lockdown began, I remember telling a friend who has a 7 year old child that it was mad that schools had not been closed already. I think that was a fair call at the time, applying a precautionary approach. But there is now a lot of evidence that the risks involved for children and teachers are very small and I think Tom has not gone far enough in stressing this evidence.
Unfortunately, the government’s published stats on virus inflections are so high level as to be useless for any real analysis. But the authorities should be able to look at the occupations of people with the virus, whether they are parents of young children etc, and reach conclusions about the risks, in addition to looking at other countries and what has already happened there – not very much actually – after schools have reopened.
Tony Hay
4 years ago
Sooooo … completely ignoring the “is it safe” question, and definitely ignoring the “state teachers are left-wing, unionised, lazy, good-for-nothing” garbage below … unless the government introduces some more practical guidelines for schools, it’s going to be a fiasco.
At a primary school I know well, the school gate opens directly onto the street. Parents may not be admitted onto school premises. Does this include playgrounds or just buildings – no guidelines – so this school will open part of the playground. Parents must physically distance themselves by 2m. So there’s likely to be a 270m queue (135 children across three year groups) stretching around the block. How long will it take to drop off the pupils one by one in the morning? At 15 second intervals it will take 30 minutes. You think that’s possible? Really? I reckon it will take up to 90 minutes. It will be even harder in the evening: “Jones the parent is here for Jones the pupil! Where’s little Jones? JONES!!” And so on.
During the day, the teachers of 4, 5, 6, 10 & 11 year olds (reception, year 1, year 6) are expected to physically distance themselves from pupils (go on, think about it). And the children themselves are expected to do the same in class, at play and at lunch. Pull the other one!
As a parent of a four year old and a six year old, you’re likely to be hanging around the school gate for a looooong time every day. Meanwhile, your little darlings will receive almost zero meaningful education. Having said that, the Swedes (and don’t we love them for their anti-lockdown sense of perspective) reckon that formal education pre-7 is a waste of time anyway.
Is it safe to reopen schools? For whom? For children, almost certainly, plus it is less safe for them not to be at school. For parents, teachers and other adult family members of the household? “The bottom line is we really just don’t know” So the answer is “yes” for children or “don’t know” for the adults they are in contact with; many less well off children live with elderly and vulnerable relatives.
lewismoonie
4 years ago
This is an excellent overview of the risks we face going forward. I have a slight qualm every time I see the phrase “Is it safe?” With an infection that is potentially fatal, “safety” is effectively unachievable. What we are aiming for is an acceptable level of risk as a society. That is where public discussion should focus, not on some spurious notion of “safety”
hari singh virk
4 years ago
Who say’s private schools are happy to open up any sooner? They seem remarkably unenthusiastic on the matter of reopening too. At best they flog some limited online teaching yet expect parents to pay fees. So let’s not look at public schools for integrity on this one either.
Robin Bury
3 years ago
One question seems unanswered. Children are not dying and in 22 European countries elementary schools are open and there has been no increase in spread of virus So why is Doug Ford in Ontario and his advisers NOT opening schools for young children? Because they are not paying attention to what is happening in Europe
David Bell
4 years ago
Unfortunately the group that appears to be least interested in return to school is the teachers unions. They are currently doing a very good job of playing up safety concerns because the scientific advice can never be as solid as they demand.
I am willing to bet the teachers will be fighting about going back in September never mind June!
Michael McVeigh
4 years ago
Tom has left out a further benefit of children in schools – this is where they pick up most of their immunity from all sorts of bugs & that immunity is part of their whole life. Some may die in a decade or two because their ‘natural’ immunity was not developed.
Simon Adams
4 years ago
“ªThe article misses the main point that I don’t think anyone is questioning whether its safe for children. The question is whether its safe for teachers, teaching assistants etc who are older, pregnant, have diabetes etc. to be seperating fights, sneezed on, changing nappies etc”¬
Peter KE
4 years ago
Get a grip. The risk for children is much lower than the general population. As for teachers they need appropriate ppe but then if they do not want to work they can resign. Enough of the public sector not getting on with life.
sonya.vaccaro
3 years ago
I live and teach in Italy, luckily we have been able to teach throughout this period with all the joys and pitfalls it brings.
I have a slightly different take on this. The truth is no-one knows completely how the virus and the impact it has will be, it would appear that what is happening in one country is not happening in another so each country’s situation needs to be looked at with caution. So I am reluctant to give snap judgements and decisions.
I believe that getting the children back to school is important……waiting for September I believe for many children is going to cause extra anxiety because they have effectively not been in the usual routine for potential 6 months. So a return before the summer is good especially if they have to adapt to new measures. Where I disagree is on the need for more school work. I would say that the focus before the summer should be about socialising, debriefing over events and giving the students space to process away from their parents.
James Brennan
4 years ago
Schools seem epidemiologically a mirror image of care-homes, except that the inmates don’t spend all their time in them, so whatever they might transmitting is more widely spread. The reasons for re-opening them seem to be social and economic, more than educational, but (speaking as a former teacher) the folk making themselves heard on the educational case for re-opening are more likely than not to be teachers themselves. The current secretary of state isn’t a very good substitute. Everyone should be clear that this is a gamble (until we know more it can’t be anything else), but fixing the odds in the way now being used doesn’t reflect any rational risk assessment. Or even sensible educational management. The immense curricular problems now facing secondary pupils aren’t even being addressed.
Mark Smith
4 years ago
The normal rubbish about the terrible unions. My wife is a reception and special needs teacher and works close to minimum wage.. She has been working throughout the pandemic and wants the best for all the children in her care. Calling the children every day and having classroom zoom meetings. Including chats with the parents. I would trust her, her colleges and the parents over the government. Is it safe for children to return, probably. (Although, it is impossible to socially distance reception children and special needs children, which is what schools are being asked to do). Is it safe for all the people the children will come into contact with afterwards. Probably not. Her school has taken the decision to allow year 6 to return, but not any staff or children with underlying conditions. So perhaps, it’s time the teacher bashing idiots stopped swallowing the MSM/Government narrative and visit a school instead to see what great work they are doing and the efforts they are going to, to educate children during this time.
Saphié Ashtiany
4 years ago
I am so sad about this debate which really encapsulates so much of what is wrong we our approach to covid. Many teachers are working really hard going into school at least once a week to look after children of other key workers while setting and marking work for their classes, keeping some contact time via Zoom, WhatsApp and other technologies with both students and parents, making special efforts to engage and support the ones they’re not seeing so much of and planning for a mass return on whenever. They’ve been telling us about the pedagogical and epidemiological issues for weeks. Some of them have done huge amounts to support vulnerable kids, inc paying for their food. We know, have known for ever, what makes for widening inequalities. And we also know what helps spread a disease which is predictably awful for some. We now that children from BAME, multigenerational homes, often the ones where extra support would help, are the ones whose return to school will be at once a pedagogical benefit and, potentially, an epidemiological disaster. We could have done so much to support children in so many ways. There are some good examples very local of people coming together to provide learning support. But for our leaders it’s just a ram-it-into-one model approach with some hygiene and distancing at the edges. And meanwhile in the private schools around us – no question of re-opening till September. I feel we’ve missed an opportunity to address some fundamentals of disadvantage, even though we really do know the answers.
Robert Ward
4 years ago
Simple answer No. Not right now,but not because of Coronavirus. Because with schools being shut for a while and especially with this weather there is every possible chance of legionella in water supplies. I would think a good clean up of that along with a good deep clean and disinfect will be needed first before they can reopen.I say give it 2 weeks to allow for this and other maintenance to be carried out.
Tyler H
3 years ago
A couple of points in this article may need editing. For one, infection and antibodies are not synonymous. People may have been exposed to the disease and fought it off with other defense Systems Prior to their body creating antibodies. Unherd has presented good discussion on this in the past.
For two: “interesting study which found that in the Netherlands, 6.5% of people who turned up at their GP with flu-like symptoms tested positive for Covid-19 ” except for young people. The under-20s actually did have the flu.” That suggests that up to 93.5% of adults over 20 may also have just had the flu.
Malcolm Ripley
3 years ago
To everyone who keep harping on about “safe”. A quick reminder. The Coronavirus is NOT new it accounts for 15% of common colds from the dawn of time. Since we have never tested for it in the past it is more than likely it has been overlooked as a flu. we specifically noticed SARS and MERS because of their severity. But how the hell would we have ever noticed a virus in the past that didn’t affect 90% of the population (DUH!) and was a problem to the old and sick who were already dying ? We would never have noticed this as being different to Flu.
Let’s apply some logic to this now shall we. The fact is a Coronavirus strain only last for 2 years (hence no more SARS no more MERS). So even if a vaccine was developed (which they didn’t manage for SARS or MERS) it will be useless 2 years from now, oops, you mean the MSM never told you that. Viruses mutate constantly so we are absolutely guaranteed to have a.n.other Covid in the future. Given the prevelance of this variety it is exceedingly likely new variants will appear due to the millions of people and their pets acting as viral mutation hosts! We have two choices :
1. Lockdown every year or two for 6 months for the rest of Human existence. No more playtime, no more sports, no more school plays etc etc etc or 2. Recognise number 1 is an irrational kneejerk response to the problem that totally ignores the Human immune system and how it works. We need to manage these outbreaks, including seasonal Flu, MUCH better.
End social distancing, re-open everything and make sure we protect the elderly in care homes EVERY year from ALL respiratory viruses. That means spending money on elderly care.
John Church
4 years ago
The article gives the impression that there is an analysis to be done, with lots of different factors to be considered, trade-offs to be worked out etc. But this is false. There is absolutely NO RISK to children from this virus. End of story.
I agree with you, evidence clearly indicates least risk to children. That isn’t the risk though. The risk is to teachers, support staff and the families of the children attending school. The children may be spreading the disease. That is where evidence is not in agreement. It then becomes an argument about how safe is a school in terms of transmission, when you can’t have effective social distancing.
My reasoning is that, as per the Office of National Statistics information, there has so far (at least to end April) only been 1 death of a child associated with Covid19 in the 5-14 age bracket. Out of 35,000 deaths. Maybe I am wrong, but isn’t that effectively ‘No Risk’ ?
Why not look at the only country that never closed the schools?
The children in Sweden are doing fine and the teachers are not more sick than the average workforce.
If you are referring to Sweden, only schools for those up to age 16 were kept open. Nevertheless, for people under 20, it appears so far only 1 virus death in Sweden. Fewer than 180 deaths for those under 60, so far.
Likewise, in the UK there has been 1 death linked to Covid in the age group 5-14, which fully covers Primary school. Just 1, out of 35,000.
And half the country is afraid to send their children back to school, because it is too risky. How is it possible that so many people are unable to think rationally about this ? What have we done ?
Super answer. Her in Canada the same stupidity prevails esp in Ontario…children are not dying of covid and are not spreading it. The reaction is emotional and ignorant.
I think we agree that the younger you are, the less you are affected by covid-19. I think where there is contradictory science, is, how ‘good’ children are at passing it on. Remember, govt says social distancing impossible in primary schools.
Q.E.D!
Of course it’s safe. More to the point, it was never ‘unsafe’. On the plus side, the sickening attitude of the (state) teachers and their unions is laid bare once again for all to see. Happy to stay home on full pay while private school pupils continue to be educated and get ahead. As we have known forever, they have no integrity whatsoever.
Useful analysis. Surely Mr Chivers deserves better?
Hmm. A comment seemingly lifted from the front page of the Daily Mail. I’m not a teacher, I know lots of teachers. The two who live opposite have been at school every day since the schools “closed”, they were in all of the Easter holidays. They are at a state school. The local public school has been closed, not taking “key worker” children.
I am sorry to be a bit ad hominem in my reply but you really dont seem to know that of which you speak – though maybe you are just feeling a bit grumpy. Schools have been open throughout with teachers rostered to go in and look after children of other key workers including in some cases toddlers in nappies. The same teachers are also setting and marking work, keeping on touch with school students and their parents, buying food for many whose vouchers aren’t working, trying to figure out how to minimise risk. Oh and also dying.
Before the lockdown began, I remember telling a friend who has a 7 year old child that it was mad that schools had not been closed already. I think that was a fair call at the time, applying a precautionary approach. But there is now a lot of evidence that the risks involved for children and teachers are very small and I think Tom has not gone far enough in stressing this evidence.
Unfortunately, the government’s published stats on virus inflections are so high level as to be useless for any real analysis. But the authorities should be able to look at the occupations of people with the virus, whether they are parents of young children etc, and reach conclusions about the risks, in addition to looking at other countries and what has already happened there – not very much actually – after schools have reopened.
Sooooo … completely ignoring the “is it safe” question, and definitely ignoring the “state teachers are left-wing, unionised, lazy, good-for-nothing” garbage below … unless the government introduces some more practical guidelines for schools, it’s going to be a fiasco.
At a primary school I know well, the school gate opens directly onto the street. Parents may not be admitted onto school premises. Does this include playgrounds or just buildings – no guidelines – so this school will open part of the playground. Parents must physically distance themselves by 2m. So there’s likely to be a 270m queue (135 children across three year groups) stretching around the block. How long will it take to drop off the pupils one by one in the morning? At 15 second intervals it will take 30 minutes. You think that’s possible? Really? I reckon it will take up to 90 minutes. It will be even harder in the evening: “Jones the parent is here for Jones the pupil! Where’s little Jones? JONES!!” And so on.
During the day, the teachers of 4, 5, 6, 10 & 11 year olds (reception, year 1, year 6) are expected to physically distance themselves from pupils (go on, think about it). And the children themselves are expected to do the same in class, at play and at lunch. Pull the other one!
As a parent of a four year old and a six year old, you’re likely to be hanging around the school gate for a looooong time every day. Meanwhile, your little darlings will receive almost zero meaningful education. Having said that, the Swedes (and don’t we love them for their anti-lockdown sense of perspective) reckon that formal education pre-7 is a waste of time anyway.
There is no evidence that children spread covid
Is it safe to reopen schools? For whom? For children, almost certainly, plus it is less safe for them not to be at school. For parents, teachers and other adult family members of the household? “The bottom line is we really just don’t know” So the answer is “yes” for children or “don’t know” for the adults they are in contact with; many less well off children live with elderly and vulnerable relatives.
This is an excellent overview of the risks we face going forward. I have a slight qualm every time I see the phrase “Is it safe?” With an infection that is potentially fatal, “safety” is effectively unachievable. What we are aiming for is an acceptable level of risk as a society. That is where public discussion should focus, not on some spurious notion of “safety”
Who say’s private schools are happy to open up any sooner? They seem remarkably unenthusiastic on the matter of reopening too. At best they flog some limited online teaching yet expect parents to pay fees. So let’s not look at public schools for integrity on this one either.
One question seems unanswered. Children are not dying and in 22 European countries elementary schools are open and there has been no increase in spread of virus So why is Doug Ford in Ontario and his advisers NOT opening schools for young children? Because they are not paying attention to what is happening in Europe
Unfortunately the group that appears to be least interested in return to school is the teachers unions. They are currently doing a very good job of playing up safety concerns because the scientific advice can never be as solid as they demand.
I am willing to bet the teachers will be fighting about going back in September never mind June!
Tom has left out a further benefit of children in schools – this is where they pick up most of their immunity from all sorts of bugs & that immunity is part of their whole life. Some may die in a decade or two because their ‘natural’ immunity was not developed.
“ªThe article misses the main point that I don’t think anyone is questioning whether its safe for children. The question is whether its safe for teachers, teaching assistants etc who are older, pregnant, have diabetes etc. to be seperating fights, sneezed on, changing nappies etc”¬
Get a grip. The risk for children is much lower than the general population. As for teachers they need appropriate ppe but then if they do not want to work they can resign. Enough of the public sector not getting on with life.
I live and teach in Italy, luckily we have been able to teach throughout this period with all the joys and pitfalls it brings.
I have a slightly different take on this. The truth is no-one knows completely how the virus and the impact it has will be, it would appear that what is happening in one country is not happening in another so each country’s situation needs to be looked at with caution. So I am reluctant to give snap judgements and decisions.
I believe that getting the children back to school is important……waiting for September I believe for many children is going to cause extra anxiety because they have effectively not been in the usual routine for potential 6 months. So a return before the summer is good especially if they have to adapt to new measures. Where I disagree is on the need for more school work. I would say that the focus before the summer should be about socialising, debriefing over events and giving the students space to process away from their parents.
Schools seem epidemiologically a mirror image of care-homes, except that the inmates don’t spend all their time in them, so whatever they might transmitting is more widely spread. The reasons for re-opening them seem to be social and economic, more than educational, but (speaking as a former teacher) the folk making themselves heard on the educational case for re-opening are more likely than not to be teachers themselves. The current secretary of state isn’t a very good substitute. Everyone should be clear that this is a gamble (until we know more it can’t be anything else), but fixing the odds in the way now being used doesn’t reflect any rational risk assessment. Or even sensible educational management. The immense curricular problems now facing secondary pupils aren’t even being addressed.
The normal rubbish about the terrible unions. My wife is a reception and special needs teacher and works close to minimum wage.. She has been working throughout the pandemic and wants the best for all the children in her care. Calling the children every day and having classroom zoom meetings. Including chats with the parents. I would trust her, her colleges and the parents over the government. Is it safe for children to return, probably. (Although, it is impossible to socially distance reception children and special needs children, which is what schools are being asked to do). Is it safe for all the people the children will come into contact with afterwards. Probably not. Her school has taken the decision to allow year 6 to return, but not any staff or children with underlying conditions. So perhaps, it’s time the teacher bashing idiots stopped swallowing the MSM/Government narrative and visit a school instead to see what great work they are doing and the efforts they are going to, to educate children during this time.
I am so sad about this debate which really encapsulates so much of what is wrong we our approach to covid. Many teachers are working really hard going into school at least once a week to look after children of other key workers while setting and marking work for their classes, keeping some contact time via Zoom, WhatsApp and other technologies with both students and parents, making special efforts to engage and support the ones they’re not seeing so much of and planning for a mass return on whenever. They’ve been telling us about the pedagogical and epidemiological issues for weeks. Some of them have done huge amounts to support vulnerable kids, inc paying for their food. We know, have known for ever, what makes for widening inequalities. And we also know what helps spread a disease which is predictably awful for some. We now that children from BAME, multigenerational homes, often the ones where extra support would help, are the ones whose return to school will be at once a pedagogical benefit and, potentially, an epidemiological disaster. We could have done so much to support children in so many ways. There are some good examples very local of people coming together to provide learning support. But for our leaders it’s just a ram-it-into-one model approach with some hygiene and distancing at the edges. And meanwhile in the private schools around us – no question of re-opening till September. I feel we’ve missed an opportunity to address some fundamentals of disadvantage, even though we really do know the answers.
Simple answer No.
Not right now,but not because of Coronavirus.
Because with schools being shut for a while and especially with this weather there is every possible chance of legionella in water supplies.
I would think a good clean up of that along with a good deep clean and disinfect will be needed first before they can reopen.I say give it 2 weeks to allow for this and other maintenance to be carried out.
A couple of points in this article may need editing. For one, infection and antibodies are not synonymous. People may have been exposed to the disease and fought it off with other defense Systems Prior to their body creating antibodies. Unherd has presented good discussion on this in the past.
For two: “interesting study which found that in the Netherlands, 6.5% of people who turned up at their GP with flu-like symptoms tested positive for Covid-19 ” except for young people. The under-20s actually did have the flu.” That suggests that up to 93.5% of adults over 20 may also have just had the flu.
To everyone who keep harping on about “safe”. A quick reminder. The Coronavirus is NOT new it accounts for 15% of common colds from the dawn of time. Since we have never tested for it in the past it is more than likely it has been overlooked as a flu. we specifically noticed SARS and MERS because of their severity. But how the hell would we have ever noticed a virus in the past that didn’t affect 90% of the population (DUH!) and was a problem to the old and sick who were already dying ? We would never have noticed this as being different to Flu.
Let’s apply some logic to this now shall we. The fact is a Coronavirus strain only last for 2 years (hence no more SARS no more MERS). So even if a vaccine was developed (which they didn’t manage for SARS or MERS) it will be useless 2 years from now, oops, you mean the MSM never told you that. Viruses mutate constantly so we are absolutely guaranteed to have a.n.other Covid in the future. Given the prevelance of this variety it is exceedingly likely new variants will appear due to the millions of people and their pets acting as viral mutation hosts! We have two choices :
1. Lockdown every year or two for 6 months for the rest of Human existence. No more playtime, no more sports, no more school plays etc etc etc
or
2. Recognise number 1 is an irrational kneejerk response to the problem that totally ignores the Human immune system and how it works. We need to manage these outbreaks, including seasonal Flu, MUCH better.
End social distancing, re-open everything and make sure we protect the elderly in care homes EVERY year from ALL respiratory viruses. That means spending money on elderly care.
The article gives the impression that there is an analysis to be done, with lots of different factors to be considered, trade-offs to be worked out etc. But this is false. There is absolutely NO RISK to children from this virus. End of story.
More, well reasoned discussion….
Why would anyone think there is a risk to children ? What information do you have that indicates this ?
I agree with you, evidence clearly indicates least risk to children. That isn’t the risk though. The risk is to teachers, support staff and the families of the children attending school. The children may be spreading the disease. That is where evidence is not in agreement. It then becomes an argument about how safe is a school in terms of transmission, when you can’t have effective social distancing.
My reasoning is that, as per the Office of National Statistics information, there has so far (at least to end April) only been 1 death of a child associated with Covid19 in the 5-14 age bracket. Out of 35,000 deaths. Maybe I am wrong, but isn’t that effectively ‘No Risk’ ?