Interesting article but it could just as easily have been written about the UK. Justin Webb writes as if he is totally detached from it all and observing from the outside. Instead, he is part of the problem. The BBC, as much as any of the mainstream media in the UK, has been more than happy to engage in ‘panic porn’. It is happy to regurgitate Government press releases about the virus and the ‘science’ behind the Government’s decision making. It will also personalise the virus by seeking out dramatic stories focusing on individuals while at the same time printing all the Government statistics and graphs even though a lot of them are meaningless because we do not know the true figures. You only have to look at the comments that adorn the BBC’s Have Your Say sections on it’s website to see the extent of group loyalty in the UK. It was the poor quality of mainstream media reporting on the virus that turned me to Unherd, which has been a breath of fresh air. Let’s hope Justin Webb can take Unherd’s approach back to the BBC.
Although I’m not a T. fan in anyway, nor a Republican, why would the Republican party need saving from Trumpism? If you remove all the speculation, he seems to have been quite an effective president looking at the topics his voters cared about?
Andrew Best
3 years ago
Brexit has driven you and the media mad BBC stooge Your slip is showing You and your ilk have zero credibility anymore
Jean Redpath
3 years ago
The distinction between left and right revolves around the proper role of the state. The left seeks a large, benevolent, all-powerful state. The right is suspicious of state power and seeks to limit the role of the state to matters of crime and war. Most people would like the state to be something in between. But left and right have become so polarized that discussions about where exactly that middle road lies do not seem to be possible.
The problem being that when in power (which is actually most of the time in most countries) the so-called right does not actually reduce or limit the power of the state. Not even Thatcher or Reagan managed it. And I don’t suppose Trump will, either. Thus the state grows ever larger and more powerful, its denizens ever richer and more self-satisfied even as they impoverish and demoralise the productive and useful.
It is not so simple as “the distinction between left and right”. Across the world, there are many, many parties of the right that have created an “all-powerful state”. Even in the UK, the Conservatives see themselves as the party of law and order with a big role for the state and it’s trappings such as courts, police, army, etc. It is difficult for anyone in the party to challenge the power of the state. Hence, in recent times, Rory Stewart & Kenneth Clarke both lost their jobs for daring to suggest prison reform including a reduction in the number of citizens to be kept at Her Majesty’s Pleasure. And Priti Patel last week seemed to relish telling people that there would be visits & knocks at the door to check that citizens and others from abroad were following quarantine orders. The right doesn’t seem that “suspicious of state power” when it suits them.
David Bell
3 years ago
There is a certain amount of sneering about this article the “look at Trump, aren’t you glad you don’t have him as a president” but look at the UK right now, are we much better? I think the defining moment is Cummings. Not did he do anything wrong but the way there has been a media pile on and now we have the unedifying spectacle of the CofE bishops getting the boot in, just for good measure. The principle seems to be “Sod your child Mr Cummings (or Cummings as the Bishops like to call him) we want our pound of flesh”. When you look at those piling on what is the defining factor, yes they all voted Remain and spent a long time challenging the Leave vote. after the referendum. Now it’s time for revenge and you can see they are enjoying it.
john.havenhand63
3 years ago
“Self obsessed President”? Is it necessary to say that Justin? It rings my political bias warning bell! You then say “Nikki Haley, the former South Carolina Governor and ambassador to the UN who I think is likely to be the Republican best positioned for the delicate task of rescuing the GOP from Trumpism.” Political agenda warning bell number 2 has started ringing.
You then quote research undertaken by social scientists focussing on Trump (funny that!) suggesting “group loyalty more important than ideological principles” in explaining Trump voters. And just to show you are even handed you suggest it might apply to some of the left too.
This don’t impress me much. The dominant culture (yes an old Marxian concept) is progressive in the States and decidedly left here in the Uk. Timothy Leary was once asked where had all the flower children and protest singing radicals gone. He responded something to the effect that they had cut their hair and gone into the White House. But they have also gone into Universities big time. The political views of the vast majority of educationalists in the UK are anti Conservative and in the States anti Trump. Many are working hard churning out mini me closed minds by the day. But a similar political mindset dominates the group think of luvvies, news reporters, the blob or is it swamp? This has reached the point where the ordinary Deplorable working class, non university persons struggling to make a living and who’s views are being dissed, have had enough. Trump reflects their views – he does not create them. Similarly in the UK, Boris reflects the views of the Brexit voting working class.
These sad people so uncool as to oppose the virtuous left progressive agenda are patronised, dismissed as racist, rather stupid and “far right bigots”.
There is no way the bipartisan stuff will return at grass roots level and the thesis that it is down to group identity is underwhelming. There is a classic paradigm conflict but it will not be solved by appealing to evidence. The emotional underpinnings of the virtuous people, is mapped onto their world view of reality not the other way round. The views of the hard left, progressive no platforming, identity groups will not tolerate much dissent. They know they are right. There is a fundamental split in world view, values and culture. Don’t be optimistic.
John, fair comment on the preponderance of anti-Trump examples in this piece, but I think Justin has a generally good point. Unfortunately, I think his optimism is…very optimistic. Humans are tribal and instinctively follow their pack leaders. Almost all of us will sometimes ignore facts (or maybe just the opportunity to gather them) in favour of confirmation-gossip. (I do not exclude myself, either!) I don’t see that changing.
Bill Gaffney
3 years ago
Firstly, FDR was a Big C communist, JFK was a light weight, misogynistic rich kid who never had a job and Oscumba is a traitor. Second, this British writer hasn’t a real clue of what motivates Americans and those who supported Trump in 2016. Anger at a system they saw as most foul and elitist. I did not support him in 2016 and still have reservations. However, he is not Hitler nor a demon. I will this time as I stopped supporting DemocratSlaveryParty POLs in 1978.
Yes, the list of ‘great and visionary’ presidents is absurd, with the probably exception of Reagan. FDR’s communism delayed any recovery from the Depression by years and years. In fact, it was only WWII that got them out of it. Kennedy looked and sounded good but delivered little and took the US into Vietnam. Obama was similar but in power for longer and therefore able to do more damage while delivering very little of any value.
That aside, this is a reasonable article but the whole ‘group loyalty’ thing is not exactly news.
Dougie Undersub
3 years ago
The group loyalty thing explains the rise of identity politics. Who needs sound policies if you can get people to vote for you based on their colour, gender or class? Clinton’s arrogant assumption that every American woman should, would, must vote for her simply because she was also a woman, came gloriously unstuck. Biden’s recent “not really black” gaffe shows he has the same game plan. We see it here too, of course, a recent example being the attacks on Trevor Phillips, who is apparently a coconut or Uncle Tom for having the temerity to accept a commission from a Tory Government to investigate an issue that should be of pressing importance to all non-white people. Unlike Justin, I have little optimism that this will change any time soon, as it requires the media to reform itself first.
Femi __
3 years ago
I hope your optimism is well founded. I fear that the gulf between left and right (in the US context) will not be bridged by a leader of either party for some time to come. Watching America is like watching the slow decline of Rome.
Obama is mentioned as a visionary figure. I see him as an abject failure. A blown opportunity. He could have at least pretended to be centrist, at least tried to see the other side. But no, he just pushed the two sides even further apart. He could have been that guy to bridge the gulf.
Jan Koster
3 years ago
You ask for a vaccine for this political virus and fear that it will almost certainly take longer to develop than for coronavirus. But it is already there, it is called truth finding. In the words of Bertrand Russell: “When you are studying any matter, or considering any philosophy, ask yourself only: What are the facts, and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted, either by what you wish to believe, or what you think could have beneficent social effects if it were believed; but look only and solely at what are the facts.”
This is probably why most of those who are in power are trying to cook the facts. Do you have a good amount of the facts on this play? I believe not. Not even the protagonists themselves have it. They most of their power to justify their agenda and remain in control.
mgasster
3 years ago
Interesting comments, you include FDR a man who tried to stack the Supreme Court to favor the Democrats.You also talk post Trump…After the dismal performance of Barack Obama’s failed 8 years, this economic juggernaut has been incredible. The BIG mistake was “Sheltering everyone in Place.” The BIGGER MISTAKE is the Blue states continuing to do it and punishing their citizens. When the left talks Fascists, Nazis…etc, you can see it in CA, MI, NJ, and PA.
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
A reasonable article (by the standards of a BBC lackey) until Obama is included in the list of ‘great and visionary’ presidents. Whatever….
To return to the subject in hand, even the rabidly anti-Trump New York Times yesterday conceded that areas under Democrat control, across the US, had seen far more Corona deaths than areas under Republican control. Nor was this simply due to population density. No, it was due to factors such as the extraordinarily incompetent and self-aggrandizing Cuomo signing an order to say that rest homes COULD NOT REFUSE to take patients with Covid-19. The direct result? At least 5,000 deaths in New York rest homes.
Moreover, Cuomo knew on 6 May that 66% of C-19 patients were those who had stayed at home, yet he extended the order to ‘stay at home’. See also New Jersey and Michigan, where Governor Gretchen Whitmer embodies all that is worst in humanity. That woman would have been pushing the Jews into the gas ovens in Nazi Germany, make no mistake about that.
Ultimately it comes down to a form of authoritarian stupidity that now characterises the progressive left, in the US and elsewhere. Their policies have failed everywhere for over half a century. If you still believe in those policies and campaign on them you are, by definition, stupid. Thus stupid people come to power in these cities and states and mass lawlessness, hopelessness and economic destruction ensue. C-19 merely exaggerates this by adding mass death to the list of malign outcomes of progressive liberalism.
Derek M
3 years ago
By what standards was Obama a great president? What achievements does he have to his name to make that claim? I’m genuinely interested I’ll be honest and say that I think FDR and JFK in particular are both massively overrated but at least you can make a case but for Obama I don’t think so. Also it’s clear that the author doesn’t like Trump (natch, he’s BBC) but his assumption that Biden will win the election is perhaps a bit premature. Also as others have already commented the author should look at the beam in his own eye first.
Interesting article but it could just as easily have been written about the UK. Justin Webb writes as if he is totally detached from it all and observing from the outside. Instead, he is part of the problem. The BBC, as much as any of the mainstream media in the UK, has been more than happy to engage in ‘panic porn’. It is happy to regurgitate Government press releases about the virus and the ‘science’ behind the Government’s decision making. It will also personalise the virus by seeking out dramatic stories focusing on individuals while at the same time printing all the Government statistics and graphs even though a lot of them are meaningless because we do not know the true figures. You only have to look at the comments that adorn the BBC’s Have Your Say sections on it’s website to see the extent of group loyalty in the UK. It was the poor quality of mainstream media reporting on the virus that turned me to Unherd, which has been a breath of fresh air. Let’s hope Justin Webb can take Unherd’s approach back to the BBC.
You are so sadly correct..!
Although I’m not a T. fan in anyway, nor a Republican, why would the Republican party need saving from Trumpism? If you remove all the speculation, he seems to have been quite an effective president looking at the topics his voters cared about?
Brexit has driven you and the media mad
BBC stooge
Your slip is showing
You and your ilk have zero credibility anymore
The distinction between left and right revolves around the proper role of the state. The left seeks a large, benevolent, all-powerful state. The right is suspicious of state power and seeks to limit the role of the state to matters of crime and war. Most people would like the state to be something in between. But left and right have become so polarized that discussions about where exactly that middle road lies do not seem to be possible.
The problem being that when in power (which is actually most of the time in most countries) the so-called right does not actually reduce or limit the power of the state. Not even Thatcher or Reagan managed it. And I don’t suppose Trump will, either. Thus the state grows ever larger and more powerful, its denizens ever richer and more self-satisfied even as they impoverish and demoralise the productive and useful.
It is not so simple as “the distinction between left and right”. Across the world, there are many, many parties of the right that have created an “all-powerful state”. Even in the UK, the Conservatives see themselves as the party of law and order with a big role for the state and it’s trappings such as courts, police, army, etc. It is difficult for anyone in the party to challenge the power of the state. Hence, in recent times, Rory Stewart & Kenneth Clarke both lost their jobs for daring to suggest prison reform including a reduction in the number of citizens to be kept at Her Majesty’s Pleasure. And Priti Patel last week seemed to relish telling people that there would be visits & knocks at the door to check that citizens and others from abroad were following quarantine orders. The right doesn’t seem that “suspicious of state power” when it suits them.
There is a certain amount of sneering about this article the “look at Trump, aren’t you glad you don’t have him as a president” but look at the UK right now, are we much better? I think the defining moment is Cummings. Not did he do anything wrong but the way there has been a media pile on and now we have the unedifying spectacle of the CofE bishops getting the boot in, just for good measure. The principle seems to be “Sod your child Mr Cummings (or Cummings as the Bishops like to call him) we want our pound of flesh”. When you look at those piling on what is the defining factor, yes they all voted Remain and spent a long time challenging the Leave vote. after the referendum. Now it’s time for revenge and you can see they are enjoying it.
“Self obsessed President”? Is it necessary to say that Justin? It rings my political bias warning bell! You then say “Nikki Haley, the former South Carolina Governor and ambassador to the UN who I think is likely to be the Republican best positioned for the delicate task of rescuing the GOP from Trumpism.” Political agenda warning bell number 2 has started ringing.
You then quote research undertaken by social scientists focussing on Trump (funny that!) suggesting “group loyalty more important than ideological principles” in explaining Trump voters. And just to show you are even handed you suggest it might apply to some of the left too.
This don’t impress me much. The dominant culture (yes an old Marxian concept) is progressive in the States and decidedly left here in the Uk. Timothy Leary was once asked where had all the flower children and protest singing radicals gone. He responded something to the effect that they had cut their hair and gone into the White House. But they have also gone into Universities big time. The political views of the vast majority of educationalists in the UK are anti Conservative and in the States anti Trump. Many are working hard churning out mini me closed minds by the day. But a similar political mindset dominates the group think of luvvies, news reporters, the blob or is it swamp? This has reached the point where the ordinary Deplorable working class, non university persons struggling to make a living and who’s views are being dissed, have had enough. Trump reflects their views – he does not create them. Similarly in the UK, Boris reflects the views of the Brexit voting working class.
These sad people so uncool as to oppose the virtuous left progressive agenda are patronised, dismissed as racist, rather stupid and “far right bigots”.
There is no way the bipartisan stuff will return at grass roots level and the thesis that it is down to group identity is underwhelming. There is a classic paradigm conflict but it will not be solved by appealing to evidence. The emotional underpinnings of the virtuous people, is mapped onto their world view of reality not the other way round. The views of the hard left, progressive no platforming, identity groups will not tolerate much dissent. They know they are right. There is a fundamental split in world view, values and culture. Don’t be optimistic.
Totally agree with your analysis. To understand is not to endorse or agree just to see things as they actually are.
John, fair comment on the preponderance of anti-Trump examples in this piece, but I think Justin has a generally good point. Unfortunately, I think his optimism is…very optimistic. Humans are tribal and instinctively follow their pack leaders. Almost all of us will sometimes ignore facts (or maybe just the opportunity to gather them) in favour of confirmation-gossip. (I do not exclude myself, either!) I don’t see that changing.
Firstly, FDR was a Big C communist, JFK was a light weight, misogynistic rich kid who never had a job and Oscumba is a traitor. Second, this British writer hasn’t a real clue of what motivates Americans and those who supported Trump in 2016. Anger at a system they saw as most foul and elitist. I did not support him in 2016 and still have reservations. However, he is not Hitler nor a demon. I will this time as I stopped supporting DemocratSlaveryParty POLs in 1978.
Yes, the list of ‘great and visionary’ presidents is absurd, with the probably exception of Reagan. FDR’s communism delayed any recovery from the Depression by years and years. In fact, it was only WWII that got them out of it. Kennedy looked and sounded good but delivered little and took the US into Vietnam. Obama was similar but in power for longer and therefore able to do more damage while delivering very little of any value.
That aside, this is a reasonable article but the whole ‘group loyalty’ thing is not exactly news.
The group loyalty thing explains the rise of identity politics. Who needs sound policies if you can get people to vote for you based on their colour, gender or class? Clinton’s arrogant assumption that every American woman should, would, must vote for her simply because she was also a woman, came gloriously unstuck. Biden’s recent “not really black” gaffe shows he has the same game plan.
We see it here too, of course, a recent example being the attacks on Trevor Phillips, who is apparently a coconut or Uncle Tom for having the temerity to accept a commission from a Tory Government to investigate an issue that should be of pressing importance to all non-white people.
Unlike Justin, I have little optimism that this will change any time soon, as it requires the media to reform itself first.
I hope your optimism is well founded. I fear that the gulf between left and right (in the US context) will not be bridged by a leader of either party for some time to come. Watching America is like watching the slow decline of Rome.
Obama is mentioned as a visionary figure. I see him as an abject failure. A blown opportunity. He could have at least pretended to be centrist, at least tried to see the other side. But no, he just pushed the two sides even further apart. He could have been that guy to bridge the gulf.
You ask for a vaccine for this political virus and fear that it will almost certainly take longer to develop than for coronavirus. But it is already there, it is called truth finding. In the words of Bertrand Russell: “When you are studying any matter, or considering any philosophy, ask yourself only: What are the facts, and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted, either by what you wish to believe, or what you think could have beneficent social effects if it were believed; but look only and solely at what are the facts.”
This is probably why most of those who are in power are trying to cook the facts. Do you have a good amount of the facts on this play? I believe not. Not even the protagonists themselves have it. They most of their power to justify their agenda and remain in control.
Interesting comments, you include FDR a man who tried to stack the Supreme Court to favor the Democrats.You also talk post Trump…After the dismal performance of Barack Obama’s failed 8 years, this economic juggernaut has been incredible. The BIG mistake was “Sheltering everyone in Place.” The BIGGER MISTAKE is the Blue states continuing to do it and punishing their citizens. When the left talks Fascists, Nazis…etc, you can see it in CA, MI, NJ, and PA.
A reasonable article (by the standards of a BBC lackey) until Obama is included in the list of ‘great and visionary’ presidents. Whatever….
To return to the subject in hand, even the rabidly anti-Trump New York Times yesterday conceded that areas under Democrat control, across the US, had seen far more Corona deaths than areas under Republican control. Nor was this simply due to population density. No, it was due to factors such as the extraordinarily incompetent and self-aggrandizing Cuomo signing an order to say that rest homes COULD NOT REFUSE to take patients with Covid-19. The direct result? At least 5,000 deaths in New York rest homes.
Moreover, Cuomo knew on 6 May that 66% of C-19 patients were those who had stayed at home, yet he extended the order to ‘stay at home’. See also New Jersey and Michigan, where Governor Gretchen Whitmer embodies all that is worst in humanity. That woman would have been pushing the Jews into the gas ovens in Nazi Germany, make no mistake about that.
Ultimately it comes down to a form of authoritarian stupidity that now characterises the progressive left, in the US and elsewhere. Their policies have failed everywhere for over half a century. If you still believe in those policies and campaign on them you are, by definition, stupid. Thus stupid people come to power in these cities and states and mass lawlessness, hopelessness and economic destruction ensue. C-19 merely exaggerates this by adding mass death to the list of malign outcomes of progressive liberalism.
By what standards was Obama a great president? What achievements does he have to his name to make that claim? I’m genuinely interested I’ll be honest and say that I think FDR and JFK in particular are both massively overrated but at least you can make a case but for Obama I don’t think so. Also it’s clear that the author doesn’t like Trump (natch, he’s BBC) but his assumption that Biden will win the election is perhaps a bit premature. Also as others have already commented the author should look at the beam in his own eye first.