It’s interesting that you mention availability bias. The media is daily bombarding us with news and stories about coronavirus which is a prime case of availability bias. Every year we go about our lives normally and don’t see the 10,000-30,000 people who die of flu in the UK. The government doesn’t announce even limited social distancing measures each flu season to protect the vulnerable.
If the government is prepared to deliberately tank the economy and then bail it out to the tune of several hundred billion then why can’t they spend a few billion more each year on social care and the NHS to improve the nation’s health?
Only the future will show what the human costs of panic over coronavirus were, and whether the cure was better or worse than the disease.
perrywidhalm
4 years ago
I suspect most of the people who are not following the State’s demands realize the SARS COVID-19 virus is the same virus that gives us colds. In time, everyone will go back to their lives and the virus will continue spreading throughout the world’s population. The virus is here to stay. We might as well accept the inevitable outcomes. Of course, we should all help protect the very young, the very old and the infirm. Most likely, this time next year when the media attention has faded, most people will carry on as if nothing happened.
Yep, just like we accept thousands of deaths from flu every year without any social distancing rules.
Fraser Bailey
4 years ago
Too many of the same old writers popping up on a site that is surely supposed to give a voice to the ‘UnHerd’. That aside, the H1N1 virus of 2010 killed at least 12,500 people in the US and the world did not come to a stop. The whole thing is madness. And no, the only thing that will kill off libertarianism is surrender to China, a country whose threat is equivalent to 20 Nazi Germanys.
Bryan Dale
4 years ago
The possibility not mentioned is that the concern over the pandemic is overblown and hysterical, while the people who go to a pub to enjoy a pint are the rational ones.
Samuel Turner
4 years ago
Very few people were going out to start with last week. Hardly anyone is ignoring the health advice. The media is frantically trying to create a sensation rather than looking at things in perspective. Cool heads are needed, not condemnation.
Alison Houston
4 years ago
With libertarianism the idea is not that the choices people are free to make will somehow be naturally beneficial to society, because a person perceives them to be beneficial to themselves, it is that nobody else has the right to judge on anyone else’s behalf what is the most beneficial course of action for them. Liberty is more important than one’s own life or anyone else’s life because life is by its nature finite. Liberty by its nature is only liberty if it is infinite. When you make a decision to do something selfless you are not making a libertarian choice, but a Christian one, you are deciding to love your neighbour as yourself. And yet the best way to love your neighbour as yourself in the long run, is to fight for your neighbour’s infinite liberty to make the right choice for himself.
Roger Armstrong
4 years ago
Perhaps the people in the pubs have come to a very arguable view (no matter what the lying politicians say) that this virus can not be eradicated and that it must be faced down at some stage by all populations with an inevitable but not particularly high death rate. To self maximise you either get it early whilst the health system can cope, late when drug treatment regimes have been developed, or very late when a vaccine has been developed. Selfish, maybe a little, but not necessarily stupid.
Paul Marks
4 years ago
Libertarians are not defined by an “optimistic view of human nature” – libertarians are defined by a realistic view of government. A realism that James Kirkup sadly lacks. Governments are made up of human beings to – just human beings using force and fear (“nudging” with threats of fines and prison) rather than the voluntary cooperation. And the idea that government can be made up of wise philosopher kings is a delusion that should have died with Plato. Indeed rule by “intellectuals” is one of the worst forms of government, due to their false view of what they can achieve by “nudging” people.
Whether the virus was created by a government (the government of the People’s Republic of China) is not yet known – but what is known is that government regulations in the United States and other nations greatly held up testing and treatment (equipment, transport, hospitals – everything). Both the Federal and the State governments have had to waive many regulations that should not have been passed in the first place. It was not libertarians who passed these regulations James Kirkup. And the regulations were waived far-too-late.
As for the United Kingdom – there was indeed something that government could have done. It could have closed the borders months ago – instead it left the borders of the nation open to the virus (for months).
Thomas Laird
3 years ago
I’m a Libertarian and you never met a greater misanthrope. I do not believe that human beings are inherently good, or even rational. What I do think is that they are self interested. Over time, enough people enough of the time will make decisions that are in their rational self interest because the consequences of the wrong decisions are abundantly manifest. What government does is shield and protect people from the natural consequences of their irrational actions. Bailing out banks because they are “too big to fail” is a perfect example. Why wouldn’t they now continue to be irrational and reckless with other peoples money?
David Bottomley
4 years ago
Two things. In reply to a comment below, Coronavirus 19 is not the same virus as the one that gives us the common cold. Far, from it! It is similar to the cold and flu virus in so far as its from the same group or family but that is in the same way that your pet cat is in the same family as lions and tigers. The main problem is that it spreads quickly and easily and no half decent government should be willing to accept the very real possibility that it’s health care service will have to select who to try and treat and who to leave to die.
On more general point about people seemingly being selfish, I think another factor in all this is that very unfortunately, the messages coming from Johnson were mixed, ever changing and conflicting from day to day. It’s really not that long ago since he was telling us all that of course he was shaking hands with NHS staff and others, and that our response has to be ‘proportionate to the risk’. For some sections of society, no excuse is needed for ignoring government advice ‘one day it’s this, the next it’s that, we’ve heard that sort of rubbish with healthy eating,alcohol etc, they are always changing their advice’.
A different tone and direct, clear messages to us could well have seen a totally different behaviour amongst the pub going population and others .
David Bottomley
4 years ago
I’m a little depressed and alarmed to hear the view , often repeated in various circles and contexts, that this is just like the flu, we don’t worry too much about that, it kills many each year but we don’t get the government telling us what to do.
In fact, of course, the situations with flu and Covid19 are completly different.
The Government and the NHS do in fact tell , or should I say, advise us what to do about flu I.e get yourself vaccinated. It’s free for the older amongst us and only £10 (?) for the rest of us. I am pretty sure that if we all followed this advice then every winter, the number of deaths, the number of hospitalisation and the demand on the NHS would fall dramatically. Similarly, the number of days off work would fall.
Coronavirus is somewhat different : a it is more lethal and virulent than flu and b) there is no vaccine.
No, flu is more lethal **as statistics stand at the moment** than coronavirus. The unknown with cv19 as that we don’t know if it will keep on running, or die down as the weather warms in the same way as flu. And there is no vaccine… yet.
I think an important question is why the government doesn’t enforce social distancing measures during flu season if, as they claim, saving human life is a priority? Flu vaccines help but are something like 50-60% effective, and AFAIK that reduces over time.
Is there a tacit agreement between the government and people that the thousands of flu deaths every year are just collateral damage to allow society to function normally?!
justanothercountry
4 years ago
At the end of the day, outside their everyday experiences and areas where they have specialist knowledge people don’t have enough information or the time or inclination to acquire it in order to make fully rational decisions.
That’s always seemed to me the fundamental flaw in any theory that assumes the existence of rational actors.
Actions based on what information you have are rational. The government has no more information than the rest of us. Why should we assume their orders are more rational than our own plans?
spaarks
4 years ago
For heaven’s sake, it is nothing to do with civil liberties. The reason the pubs weren’t closed was because the government was blindly following the theory of HERD IMMUNITY (against the advice of the W.H.O. and most world experts). The Chief Scientific Officer said “we need 60% of the population to become infected”. Yes he said those very words in a press conference. They even produced a standard distribution curve to explain it to the herd. Anybody with school days knowledge of statistics can see that it theoretic. Unfortunately the COVID19 virus don’t know what a binomial is, and will refuse to follow it. The government’s measured approach was an attempt to manage HERD IMMUNITY. I think they are still trying that approach, but nobody is questioning it. It would be unpatriotic, wouldn’t it?
nickandyrose
4 years ago
And there is societal pressure, as well as employer pressure, to “tough it” when ill, instead of staying at home. And, biggest cause of all, is the media frenzy linked to this outbreak. Instead of sticking to the facts, lurid headlines abound to sell newspapers, stoking the mass-hysteria bordering on panic. We will have to wait until the end of the outbreak before we can be certain, but some sort of rein is needed – of the media, not us.
R Malarkey
4 years ago
Uh, they might have crowded into pubs in London, but out here in Somerset the pubs completely died before they were shut down. I went in for a ‘final pint’ and I didn’t feel at risk at all, because I was almost the only one there.
I would hazard there is more of a community feeling here than there is in London though.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there. I lived in London for many years, and in Somerset for the last 20, and that is my experience too. No wonder – it is hard to have a feeling of community amongst a population of millions, where you very likely have never even spoken to most of your neighbours. It’s pretty hard even to feel empathy for them, frankly….even though there are no doubt some wonderful people amongst them.
Teleconferencing with some colleagues who live in Bath today, they mentioned that they didn’t know their neighbours either – and that is a relatively small and relaxed city.
Simon Humphries
4 years ago
There is much in this article that needs to be pulled apart and analysed in greater detail. I will mention two. Firstly, while classical economics may be based on the idea of the rational actor, classical liberal views do not require that all decisions be rational. Hayek, for example, particularly stressed the subjectivity of choices. Secondly, this form of liberalism does not suggest that everybody organises, themselves in an optimal manner. There is no suggestion, for instance, that some form of policing and criminal justice will not be required. Greenspan would have been wiser had he understood this. Perhaps we should refer back to Mill’s Harm Principle. Negative externalities are a form of harm that would fall foul of this principle and it is reasonable to think that infecting others is a form of harm. It is a pity that this article fails to properly understand libertarianism and therefore fails to address the issue in an informed manner. Misconstruing the issue does not lead to informed debate – it is just a form of propaganda, really.
J Cor
4 years ago
“In short, this suggests that when people are left to their own devices, they will, in the end, do sensible, collaborative and even kind things.”
At risk of being piled on as a libtard cuck snowflake or whatever the insult du jour is, I’ve always wondered why it wasn’t obvious why libertarianism is so popular among white dudes: because no matter how low, high, or closely or distantly spaced the shelves of society were, they were always on the top one. Even when most humans lived in a mud puddle, they could always take comfort in the fact that it was slightly higher around everyone else. So of course they could reach these conclusions. Ask anyone else, and the answer would be very different.
Thing is, a virus doesn’t care. When the next in line to the British throne comes down with it, libertarianism goes right out the window.
facebook
4 years ago
The issue of the lockdown is within the libertarian ideology, if it is taken as being public safety rather than being government throwing its weigh around. Rather than the danger of a virus, imagine it as a gun control issue. Anyone get’s to own and carry a gun, as part of the libertarian ideal. However, wave your loaded gun around in a public place, and you’ll be shot. Get too close to others and be considered a threat, and again, you will be shot. This is an issue of public threat, and in that mindset, libertarians are happy to let the state take control. The main problem as I see it is a misunderstanding of the concept of freedom and rational actors. People are free to do as they want, but that doesn’t mean we have no rules or limits. We need a level playing field for it to work, and someone unbiased to enforce it. The alternative is anarchy, where people will cheat to win, and that is not libertarianism.
Gerry Fruin
4 years ago
Everyone can have an opinion and to be able to express them and discuss is a wonderful thing. A myriad of different angles can be put forward ,all reasoning why one of our groups does not wish to listen to advice given. Jesus wept and no wonder. I’m convinced that it’s because then and now we have a large number of ignorant, stupid, moronic cretins who couldn’t give a fig for anybody but themselves. That is until they need the services of the very people they deliberately put at risk. No need to guess who will squeal loudest.
katrinaangus
3 years ago
This didn’t age well did it? The tories have shown that they do not have an ounce of libertarianism in them. They are the crony capitalists that I thought they were. Not been impressed by libertarians this year. I do have faith in the philosophy. A libertarian society would protect private property from threats and that includes virus. Without patents to make money for big pharma, being 1st with the best treatments would be the only option without the government indemnity of course. I cannot see the government giving up too much of it’s power anytime soon and joe public has shown the deaths of WW2 were in vain.
It’s interesting that you mention availability bias. The media is daily bombarding us with news and stories about coronavirus which is a prime case of availability bias. Every year we go about our lives normally and don’t see the 10,000-30,000 people who die of flu in the UK. The government doesn’t announce even limited social distancing measures each flu season to protect the vulnerable.
If the government is prepared to deliberately tank the economy and then bail it out to the tune of several hundred billion then why can’t they spend a few billion more each year on social care and the NHS to improve the nation’s health?
Only the future will show what the human costs of panic over coronavirus were, and whether the cure was better or worse than the disease.
I suspect most of the people who are not following the State’s demands realize the SARS COVID-19 virus is the same virus that gives us colds. In time, everyone will go back to their lives and the virus will continue spreading throughout the world’s population. The virus is here to stay. We might as well accept the inevitable outcomes. Of course, we should all help protect the very young, the very old and the infirm. Most likely, this time next year when the media attention has faded, most people will carry on as if nothing happened.
Yep, just like we accept thousands of deaths from flu every year without any social distancing rules.
Too many of the same old writers popping up on a site that is surely supposed to give a voice to the ‘UnHerd’. That aside, the H1N1 virus of 2010 killed at least 12,500 people in the US and the world did not come to a stop. The whole thing is madness. And no, the only thing that will kill off libertarianism is surrender to China, a country whose threat is equivalent to 20 Nazi Germanys.
The possibility not mentioned is that the concern over the pandemic is overblown and hysterical, while the people who go to a pub to enjoy a pint are the rational ones.
Very few people were going out to start with last week. Hardly anyone is ignoring the health advice. The media is frantically trying to create a sensation rather than looking at things in perspective. Cool heads are needed, not condemnation.
With libertarianism the idea is not that the choices people are free to make will somehow be naturally beneficial to society, because a person perceives them to be beneficial to themselves, it is that nobody else has the right to judge on anyone else’s behalf what is the most beneficial course of action for them. Liberty is more important than one’s own life or anyone else’s life because life is by its nature finite. Liberty by its nature is only liberty if it is infinite. When you make a decision to do something selfless you are not making a libertarian choice, but a Christian one, you are deciding to love your neighbour as yourself. And yet the best way to love your neighbour as yourself in the long run, is to fight for your neighbour’s infinite liberty to make the right choice for himself.
Perhaps the people in the pubs have come to a very arguable view (no matter what the lying politicians say) that this virus can not be eradicated and that it must be faced down at some stage by all populations with an inevitable but not particularly high death rate. To self maximise you either get it early whilst the health system can cope, late when drug treatment regimes have been developed, or very late when a vaccine has been developed. Selfish, maybe a little, but not necessarily stupid.
Libertarians are not defined by an “optimistic view of human nature” – libertarians are defined by a realistic view of government. A realism that James Kirkup sadly lacks. Governments are made up of human beings to – just human beings using force and fear (“nudging” with threats of fines and prison) rather than the voluntary cooperation. And the idea that government can be made up of wise philosopher kings is a delusion that should have died with Plato. Indeed rule by “intellectuals” is one of the worst forms of government, due to their false view of what they can achieve by “nudging” people.
Whether the virus was created by a government (the government of the People’s Republic of China) is not yet known – but what is known is that government regulations in the United States and other nations greatly held up testing and treatment (equipment, transport, hospitals – everything). Both the Federal and the State governments have had to waive many regulations that should not have been passed in the first place. It was not libertarians who passed these regulations James Kirkup. And the regulations were waived far-too-late.
As for the United Kingdom – there was indeed something that government could have done. It could have closed the borders months ago – instead it left the borders of the nation open to the virus (for months).
I’m a Libertarian and you never met a greater misanthrope. I do not believe that human beings are inherently good, or even rational. What I do think is that they are self interested. Over time, enough people enough of the time will make decisions that are in their rational self interest because the consequences of the wrong decisions are abundantly manifest. What government does is shield and protect people from the natural consequences of their irrational actions. Bailing out banks because they are “too big to fail” is a perfect example. Why wouldn’t they now continue to be irrational and reckless with other peoples money?
Two things. In reply to a comment below, Coronavirus 19 is not the same virus as the one that gives us the common cold. Far, from it! It is similar to the cold and flu virus in so far as its from the same group or family but that is in the same way that your pet cat is in the same family as lions and tigers. The main problem is that it spreads quickly and easily and no half decent government should be willing to accept the very real possibility that it’s health care service will have to select who to try and treat and who to leave to die.
On more general point about people seemingly being selfish, I think another factor in all this is that very unfortunately, the messages coming from Johnson were mixed, ever changing and conflicting from day to day. It’s really not that long ago since he was telling us all that of course he was shaking hands with NHS staff and others, and that our response has to be ‘proportionate to the risk’. For some sections of society, no excuse is needed for ignoring government advice ‘one day it’s this, the next it’s that, we’ve heard that sort of rubbish with healthy eating,alcohol etc, they are always changing their advice’.
A different tone and direct, clear messages to us could well have seen a totally different behaviour amongst the pub going population and others .
I’m a little depressed and alarmed to hear the view , often repeated in various circles and contexts, that this is just like the flu, we don’t worry too much about that, it kills many each year but we don’t get the government telling us what to do.
In fact, of course, the situations with flu and Covid19 are completly different.
The Government and the NHS do in fact tell , or should I say, advise us what to do about flu I.e get yourself vaccinated. It’s free for the older amongst us and only £10 (?) for the rest of us. I am pretty sure that if we all followed this advice then every winter, the number of deaths, the number of hospitalisation and the demand on the NHS would fall dramatically. Similarly, the number of days off work would fall.
Coronavirus is somewhat different : a it is more lethal and virulent than flu and b) there is no vaccine.
No, flu is more lethal **as statistics stand at the moment** than coronavirus. The unknown with cv19 as that we don’t know if it will keep on running, or die down as the weather warms in the same way as flu. And there is no vaccine… yet.
I think an important question is why the government doesn’t enforce social distancing measures during flu season if, as they claim, saving human life is a priority? Flu vaccines help but are something like 50-60% effective, and AFAIK that reduces over time.
Is there a tacit agreement between the government and people that the thousands of flu deaths every year are just collateral damage to allow society to function normally?!
At the end of the day, outside their everyday experiences and areas where they have specialist knowledge people don’t have enough information or the time or inclination to acquire it in order to make fully rational decisions.
That’s always seemed to me the fundamental flaw in any theory that assumes the existence of rational actors.
Actions based on what information you have are rational. The government has no more information than the rest of us. Why should we assume their orders are more rational than our own plans?
For heaven’s sake, it is nothing to do with civil liberties. The reason the pubs weren’t closed was because the government was blindly following the theory of HERD IMMUNITY (against the advice of the W.H.O. and most world experts). The Chief Scientific Officer said “we need 60% of the population to become infected”. Yes he said those very words in a press conference. They even produced a standard distribution curve to explain it to the herd. Anybody with school days knowledge of statistics can see that it theoretic. Unfortunately the COVID19 virus don’t know what a binomial is, and will refuse to follow it.
The government’s measured approach was an attempt to manage HERD IMMUNITY. I think they are still trying that approach, but nobody is questioning it. It would be unpatriotic, wouldn’t it?
And there is societal pressure, as well as employer pressure, to “tough it” when ill, instead of staying at home. And, biggest cause of all, is the media frenzy linked to this outbreak. Instead of sticking to the facts, lurid headlines abound to sell newspapers, stoking the mass-hysteria bordering on panic. We will have to wait until the end of the outbreak before we can be certain, but some sort of rein is needed – of the media, not us.
Uh, they might have crowded into pubs in London, but out here in Somerset the pubs completely died before they were shut down. I went in for a ‘final pint’ and I didn’t feel at risk at all, because I was almost the only one there.
I would hazard there is more of a community feeling here than there is in London though.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there. I lived in London for many years, and in Somerset for the last 20, and that is my experience too. No wonder – it is hard to have a feeling of community amongst a population of millions, where you very likely have never even spoken to most of your neighbours. It’s pretty hard even to feel empathy for them, frankly….even though there are no doubt some wonderful people amongst them.
Teleconferencing with some colleagues who live in Bath today, they mentioned that they didn’t know their neighbours either – and that is a relatively small and relaxed city.
There is much in this article that needs to be pulled apart and analysed in greater detail. I will mention two. Firstly, while classical economics may be based on the idea of the rational actor, classical liberal views do not require that all decisions be rational. Hayek, for example, particularly stressed the subjectivity of choices. Secondly, this form of liberalism does not suggest that everybody organises, themselves in an optimal manner. There is no suggestion, for instance, that some form of policing and criminal justice will not be required. Greenspan would have been wiser had he understood this. Perhaps we should refer back to Mill’s Harm Principle. Negative externalities are a form of harm that would fall foul of this principle and it is reasonable to think that infecting others is a form of harm. It is a pity that this article fails to properly understand libertarianism and therefore fails to address the issue in an informed manner. Misconstruing the issue does not lead to informed debate – it is just a form of propaganda, really.
“In short, this suggests that when people are left to their own devices, they will, in the end, do sensible, collaborative and even kind things.”
At risk of being piled on as a libtard cuck snowflake or whatever the insult du jour is, I’ve always wondered why it wasn’t obvious why libertarianism is so popular among white dudes: because no matter how low, high, or closely or distantly spaced the shelves of society were, they were always on the top one. Even when most humans lived in a mud puddle, they could always take comfort in the fact that it was slightly higher around everyone else. So of course they could reach these conclusions. Ask anyone else, and the answer would be very different.
Thing is, a virus doesn’t care. When the next in line to the British throne comes down with it, libertarianism goes right out the window.
The issue of the lockdown is within the libertarian ideology, if it is taken as being public safety rather than being government throwing its weigh around.
Rather than the danger of a virus, imagine it as a gun control issue. Anyone get’s to own and carry a gun, as part of the libertarian ideal. However, wave your loaded gun around in a public place, and you’ll be shot. Get too close to others and be considered a threat, and again, you will be shot. This is an issue of public threat, and in that mindset, libertarians are happy to let the state take control.
The main problem as I see it is a misunderstanding of the concept of freedom and rational actors. People are free to do as they want, but that doesn’t mean we have no rules or limits. We need a level playing field for it to work, and someone unbiased to enforce it. The alternative is anarchy, where people will cheat to win, and that is not libertarianism.
Everyone can have an opinion and to be able to express them and discuss is a wonderful thing. A myriad of different angles can be put forward ,all reasoning why one of our groups does not wish to listen to advice given. Jesus wept and no wonder. I’m convinced that it’s because then and now we have a large number of ignorant, stupid, moronic cretins who couldn’t give a fig for anybody but themselves. That is until they need the services of the very people they deliberately put at risk. No need to guess who will squeal loudest.
This didn’t age well did it? The tories have shown that they do not have an ounce of libertarianism in them. They are the crony capitalists that I thought they were. Not been impressed by libertarians this year. I do have faith in the philosophy. A libertarian society would protect private property from threats and that includes virus. Without patents to make money for big pharma, being 1st with the best treatments would be the only option without the government indemnity of course. I cannot see the government giving up too much of it’s power anytime soon and joe public has shown the deaths of WW2 were in vain.