Always enjoy reading Douglas Murray essays but I disagree with him on the idea that Marxism is on the far-Left and Fascism represents the far-Right. Both Marxism and Fascism are on the Left. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany (National Socialists) are contrasted as being polar opposites but that is false, they both represented authoritarianism, war-mongering (The Pact Of Steel) a centrally-planned economy and a deep hatred for the Jewish people. Where the two States differed was in their nationalist identity. Marxists are internationalists generally and the Nazi’s were jingoistic nationalists. But, nationalism is not an indicator of the Left / Right divide. Gandhi was a nationalist. FDR was a nationalist. Churchill was a nationalist. Mandela was a nationalist. Chavez was a nationalist. The proper distinction should be authoritarian State collectivists on the Left and Democratic Republic Individualists on the Right.
Agreed. I think the Right is better exemplified by Popper, Friedman and Hayek; people who worked as philosophers, historians and economists and never set up a concentration camp. They also had a sense of humour rather than being driven by hatred.
The trouble is that the left-right single scale is a very poor way of classifying political beliefs. Despite this, it has become the accepted scale, thereby causing endless problems, particularly as far as the extremes are concerned.
Maybe the aging ‘left-right’ terminology Is the problem here. Like Trump, I’m totally opposed to leftism, but does that mean I’m primarily ‘on the right’, or primarily anti-leftist? I’d say the latter. I can negate leftist policy and dogma without offering alternatives, just as scientists can falsify current scientific theory without proposing greater truths. The term ‘non-leftist’ is also useful for describing all those free of said ideology, perhaps the silent majority. Other useful terms to frame and guide our thinking in these confusing times are globalist vs patriot and ‘somewhere vs anywhere people’.
Thank you! @Perry Widhalm! You nailed it so well!!
Fraser Bailey
4 years ago
Salvini can be a little brash or uncouth but I see no evidence of any fascistic beliefs. He simply wants Italy’s borders to be respected, and Italian traditions to be maintained. And it wasn’t he who took Italy into the euro, or who oversaw decades of corruption across Italian politics and industry.
Not just political ideologies but religious ideologies too should be under the scanner!! When you kill or defraud others to convert/join some faith, it’s also fascism!! When you don’t allow other belief systems to exist just because they are different, that is fascism too and yet! underrated in public discourse!! Political correctness/fear of backlash and left wing hypocrisy are perhaps the major culprits of this malaise!!
tekyo.pantzov
4 years ago
Douglas Murray writes: “on top of the sheer weight of numbers, most [immigrants] came from culturally and religiously very different societies … Salvini addressed the issue, and his arguments resonated with the Italian public … his insistence that the new arrivals did not share the traditions or ways of life of the Italian people.” Most immigrants to Europe come from nearby continents, because shorter travel routes are cheaper. As a result of this, immigrants to Europe tend to belong to cultures very different from European cultures. Since immigration is necessary, Europe should encourage immigrants from compatible cultures, even though they may be further away than Algeria or Turkey. There is a large reservoir of potential immigrants with compatible cultures in Latin America, who speak Indo-European languages also spoken in Europe and whose religious beliefs are largely European in origin. Europe should discourage immigration from the countries that currently provide the bulk of immigration to Europe and instead actively recruit and pay for immigration from Latin America.
To adopt your wise advice, Europe will first need freedom from EU immigration policy, its progressive-globalist ideology, and its control over European nations’ political sovereignty.
@Nick Hunt: Every civilization & culture has the duty & right to protect itself!! However, you as most Europeans are confused about immigration & cultures!!
Muslim incompatibility with European & ANY other culture is a reality which west Europeans somehow refuse to acknowledge!!
LatinAmerica is source of immigration but non Muslim, Asia & India are significant pools of talent, Europe should definitely encourage!! Varied perspectives which are not brainwashed by ideology & religion are sure to offer greater opportunities for Europeans!!
It isn’t, on the whole. To the extent that it is necessary in Italy it is because Italy has a very low birthrate. This is because Italy has been an economic, political and institutional basket case for many decades. Thus people see little future in the country, and many of its educated young leave the country. These problems will not be solved by importing people from places that are even more backwards than Italy.
WHY are these countries backward should be the question! which Europeans rarely, if ever answered honestly!!
Also, WHY are so many Italians/Europeans in social, economic, political, philosophical or spiritual malaise & backwardness are the other questions which need to haunt Europeans!!
@Tekyo Pantzov: What you say is only partially correct!! You as most Europeans are confused about immigration & cultures!! Muslim incompatibility with European & ANY other culture is a reality which west Europeans somehow refuse to acknowledge!!
Latin America is source of immigration but non Muslim, Asia & India are significant pools of talent, Europe should definitely encourage!! Varied perspectives which are not brainwashed by ideology & religion are sure to offer greater opportunities for Europeans!!
Will D. Mann
4 years ago
Any future malignant political movements are unlikely to look very much like the totalitarian movements of the 20th century. They will have to disguise themselves as western democracies have been inoculated to some degree and will resist overtly Nazi or Fascist anti Semitic movements.
Elements of Fascism are apparent in some of today’s political movements. Some political discourse attempts a conflation of “The People” and ” The Nation” into one entity. We have heard rather alarming calls to heed ” the will of the people”, with the implication that dissent or disagreement is somehow illegitimate. Alarm bells should ring when any would be leader makes exclusive claims to interpret the people’s will.
The other thing to watch out for are attempts to define citizenship along ethnic lines. Today’s Far Right movements have abandoned the crude genetic racism of the 20th century and usually talk about “different cultures”, this enables them to send out xenophobic messages while dodging accusations of crude racism. ( Foreign immigrants could be tolerated, so long as they become just like “us”)
The new Populist Right might well be different in many ways to the Nazi and Fascist movements of the past but they are exploiting the same insecurity and fears, it could all end just as badly as last time.
Always enjoy reading Douglas Murray essays but I disagree with him on the idea that Marxism is on the far-Left and Fascism represents the far-Right. Both Marxism and Fascism are on the Left. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany (National Socialists) are contrasted as being polar opposites but that is false, they both represented authoritarianism, war-mongering (The Pact Of Steel) a centrally-planned economy and a deep hatred for the Jewish people. Where the two States differed was in their nationalist identity. Marxists are internationalists generally and the Nazi’s were jingoistic nationalists. But, nationalism is not an indicator of the Left / Right divide. Gandhi was a nationalist. FDR was a nationalist. Churchill was a nationalist. Mandela was a nationalist. Chavez was a nationalist. The proper distinction should be authoritarian State collectivists on the Left and Democratic Republic Individualists on the Right.
Agreed. I think the Right is better exemplified by Popper, Friedman and Hayek; people who worked as philosophers, historians and economists and never set up a concentration camp.
They also had a sense of humour rather than being driven by hatred.
The trouble is that the left-right single scale is a very poor way of classifying political beliefs. Despite this, it has become the accepted scale, thereby causing endless problems, particularly as far as the extremes are concerned.
Agreed. It is more a horseshoe or a bird’s wing tips mid-flap.
The biaxial left right/ authoritarian libertarian square is better.
Maybe the aging ‘left-right’ terminology Is the problem here. Like Trump, I’m totally opposed to leftism, but does that mean I’m primarily ‘on the right’, or primarily anti-leftist? I’d say the latter. I can negate leftist policy and dogma without offering alternatives, just as scientists can falsify current scientific theory without proposing greater truths. The term ‘non-leftist’ is also useful for describing all those free of said ideology, perhaps the silent majority. Other useful terms to frame and guide our thinking in these confusing times are globalist vs patriot and ‘somewhere vs anywhere people’.
Thank you! @Perry Widhalm! You nailed it so well!!
Salvini can be a little brash or uncouth but I see no evidence of any fascistic beliefs. He simply wants Italy’s borders to be respected, and Italian traditions to be maintained. And it wasn’t he who took Italy into the euro, or who oversaw decades of corruption across Italian politics and industry.
Not just political ideologies but religious ideologies too should be under the scanner!! When you kill or defraud others to convert/join some faith, it’s also fascism!! When you don’t allow other belief systems to exist just because they are different, that is fascism too and yet! underrated in public discourse!! Political correctness/fear of backlash and left wing hypocrisy are perhaps the major culprits of this malaise!!
Douglas Murray writes: “on top of the sheer weight of numbers, most [immigrants] came from culturally and religiously very different societies … Salvini addressed the issue, and his arguments resonated with the Italian public … his insistence that the new arrivals did not share the traditions or ways of life of the Italian people.”
Most immigrants to Europe come from nearby continents, because shorter travel routes are cheaper. As a result of this, immigrants to Europe tend to belong to cultures very different from European cultures.
Since immigration is necessary, Europe should encourage immigrants from compatible cultures, even though they may be further away than Algeria or Turkey. There is a large reservoir of potential immigrants with compatible cultures in Latin America, who speak Indo-European languages also spoken in Europe and whose religious beliefs are largely European in origin.
Europe should discourage immigration from the countries that currently provide the bulk of immigration to Europe and instead actively recruit and pay for immigration from Latin America.
To adopt your wise advice, Europe will first need freedom from EU immigration policy, its progressive-globalist ideology, and its control over European nations’ political sovereignty.
@Nick Hunt: Every civilization & culture has the duty & right to protect itself!! However, you as most Europeans are confused about immigration & cultures!!
Muslim incompatibility with European & ANY other culture is a reality which west Europeans somehow refuse to acknowledge!!
LatinAmerica is source of immigration but non Muslim, Asia & India are significant pools of talent, Europe should definitely encourage!! Varied perspectives which are not brainwashed by ideology & religion are sure to offer greater opportunities for Europeans!!
Why is immigration necessary ?
It isn’t, on the whole. To the extent that it is necessary in Italy it is because Italy has a very low birthrate. This is because Italy has been an economic, political and institutional basket case for many decades. Thus people see little future in the country, and many of its educated young leave the country. These problems will not be solved by importing people from places that are even more backwards than Italy.
WHY are these countries backward should be the question! which Europeans rarely, if ever answered honestly!!
Also, WHY are so many Italians/Europeans in social, economic, political, philosophical or spiritual malaise & backwardness are the other questions which need to haunt Europeans!!
@Fraser Bailey: You are confusing poor political & econonimic system backwardness with people!!
@Tekyo Pantzov: What you say is only partially correct!! You as most Europeans are confused about immigration & cultures!! Muslim incompatibility with European & ANY other culture is a reality which west Europeans somehow refuse to acknowledge!!
Latin America is source of immigration but non Muslim, Asia & India are significant pools of talent, Europe should definitely encourage!! Varied perspectives which are not brainwashed by ideology & religion are sure to offer greater opportunities for Europeans!!
Any future malignant political movements are unlikely to look very much like the totalitarian movements of the 20th century. They will have to disguise themselves as western democracies have been inoculated to some degree and will resist overtly Nazi or Fascist anti Semitic movements.
Elements of Fascism are apparent in some of today’s political movements. Some political discourse attempts a conflation of “The People” and ” The Nation” into one entity. We have heard rather alarming calls to heed ” the will of the people”, with the implication that dissent or disagreement is somehow illegitimate. Alarm bells should ring when any would be leader makes exclusive claims to interpret the people’s will.
The other thing to watch out for are attempts to define citizenship along ethnic lines. Today’s Far Right movements have abandoned the crude genetic racism of the 20th century and usually talk about “different cultures”, this enables them to send out xenophobic messages while dodging accusations of crude racism. ( Foreign immigrants could be tolerated, so long as they become just like “us”)
The new Populist Right might well be different in many ways to the Nazi and Fascist movements of the past but they are exploiting the same insecurity and fears, it could all end just as badly as last time.