February 12, 2025 - 1:30pm
After a few short weeks of peace, a return to war in Gaza appears imminent. Hamas announced on Monday that it was suspending the return of Israeli hostages, claiming that Israel was breaking the ceasefire agreement by firing on civilians.
Meanwhile in Israel, there has been growing anger at the humiliating handover ceremonies, where hostages are paraded in front of baying mobs by ranks of smartly-dressed and very much still alive Hamas fighters.
It always looked as though the ceasefire would struggle to get past the first stage, given the proposed Israeli military concessions and the serious crimes committed by Palestinian prisoners due to be released under the second stage. Israeli ministers who reluctantly accepted the first phase, such as Bezalel Smotrich, had already made it clear they could not accept the second stage.
Now that the female hostages have been returned â apart from Shiri Bibas and her two children, who are feared dead â and considering the emaciated condition of the last three hostages, with a dwindling number believed to remain alive, there is fresh pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu to return to war. Yesterday, the Israeli Prime Minister threatened to end the ceasefire if the hostages are not returned by Saturday.
Ominously, there has been a return of the anonymous briefings from the infamous âsource close to the Israeli governmentâ which played an important role in undermining negotiations last year â and which was blamed for collapsing the proposed ceasefire in April.
When the current ceasefire was announced in mid-January, much was made of how pressure from Donald Trump had succeeded where Joe Biden had failed. But the way the US President is talking now suggests he would be happy to wipe out Hamas â or have Israel do it for him.
Hamas leaders are obviously listening to what Trump is saying. Since the hostages are one of the very few means they have to protect themselves, given Trump’s rhetoric, it makes sense that Hamas is determined to hang on to them.
There are some who argue that Trump is a strategic genius, making outrageous statements to apply pressure, adapting Richard Nixonâs âmadmanâ theory to Israel-Palestine. Alternatively, there are those who accept the prima facie case that he is ignorant and just says whatever comes into his head, even if it contradicts what he said the previous day. Whichever interpretation you subscribe to, itâs near-impossible to predict what Trump will do or say, and pointless to try.
But we can look at the facts on the ground. For as long as Netanyahu remains in office, a Palestinian state is a non-starter, and the current circumstances suggest that he has more chance of staying in office through resuming the war.
Meanwhile, Trumpâs appointments of staunch supporters of Israel â such as Secretary of State Marco Rubio, UN Ambassador Elise Stefanik, and Israeli Ambassador Mike Huckabee â all suggest that he is happy for Bibi to return to war with a vengeance. The US President has seemingly concluded that if he is to secure the long-term end of the war in Gaza, reach a deal with Saudi Arabia, and secure his place in the history books as the man who brought peace to the Middle East, Hamas needs to be eliminated.
Speaking to Fox News yesterday, Rubio said that âHamas is breaking the deal.â He added: âthe President is tired of the drip, drip, drip [and] he wants people out […] If these guys donât go through with their deal on Saturday, then I think weâre back to where we were a few months ago where Hamas is going to be eliminated and the Israelis are going to go in and take care of that problem.â
When one combines this with Trumpâs remarks over the past few weeks and the suspension of the hostage deal, the omens do not look good. All signs indicate an imminent return to bloodshed.
David Swift is a historian and author. His next book, Scouse Republic, is available to pre-order now.
davidswift87
What a shock!! A return to war on that plot of ground??
Is there any bit of news that is more predictable than this? So long as one side lives only to kill Jews, the other side will defend itself. And the beat goes on.
Yep. Itâs all about killing Jews. Not the stealing of land, not about colonialism at all. Itâs hatred of Jews. Simple. Is any issue with Israelâs actions not hatred of Jews or âanti semitismâ?
Students in universities in the US – 30% Jewish students by the way – journalists, Ireland, Amsterdam soccer fans, Jewish intellectuals. All of them. Hatred of Jews.
What are your thoughts on ethnic cleansing? You approve of it, like Hitler?
What would you do if a country was suddenly created and you were pushed out and made to live in an open air prison?
Roll over? Hamas are a result of the failure and corruption of the Palestinian authority.
Iâve never seen such de humanising and racist comments in these Unherd comment section. Anti -Palestinian just doesnât have the same PR though does it.
The hostages looked gaunt when they came out. Wonder why? The Palestinians look well fed to you? Thereâs no food getting in. And the accounts of Israeli hostages saying they were treated well? And what about the Palestinian âprisonersâ appearance? Emaciated and with evidence of torture. It doesnât matter does it. Israel are moral, the other side are savages. And the West Bank? Just take that too? And if the locals resist then they are simply terrorists.
Gullible simpleton.
Students in universities in the US â 30% Jewish students by the way â journalists, Ireland, Amsterdam soccer fans, Jewish intellectuals. All of them. Hatred of Jews.
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No. They are simply idiots. Just for your information – revolutionaries were extremely popular in Russia in 1870-1917 among the public you mentioned, academics and even many capitalists.
Then the Bolsheviks seized power and it began…
The public is always unhappy with the existing state of affairs and admires Robin Hoods until the public starts to be slaughtered, but by that time it is usually too late.
You too will scream “Why me?” when the followers of the religion of peace will start to cut you you. And they will, do not doubt its.
Anti semite!!
The Bolshevikâs were 70-80% Jewish.
So you think a group who have backyard rockets and kites and knives are a threat to Israel and the west?
Oh my pearls!!
I donât think the is is a love of revolutionaries there el, itâs the witnessing of war crimes. Is there such things as war crimes? Destroying infrastructure and punishing the civilians, targeting children are what? War? You donât believe in having a motion of war crimes?
You know this didnât start on Oct 7.
How many innocents have died in the mowing the lawn ops for years before this?
You have it in ur head that one side is savage and the other are peace loving leaders who just want two states.
You are naive and have been propagandised.
So, when these Arab armies come and cut me, and you too I imagine, will you fight back when they call you a terrorist?
You have an unhealthy fear of Islam.
What if we spoke that way about Jewish tropes?
This is an ethnic cleansing and always was. And if i said this a year ago people said I was a look and, sigh, an anti semite . Look at Gaza, for the love of truth, look at it. Look like Israeli AI targets ops to you. They lie el. They lie. Its ok. I get it. Theyâve conned a lot of people. Even the great El Uro!!
In the first Soviet Government the only Jew was Leon Trotzki.
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Learn history, bro đ đ đ
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Chairman of the Council of People’s Commissars – Vladimir Ulyanov (Lenin)
People’s Commissar for Internal Affairs – A.I. Rykov
People’s Commissar for Agriculture – V.P. Milyutin
People’s Commissar for Labor – A.G. Shlyapnikov
People’s Commissariat for Military and Naval Affairs – a committee consisting of: V.A. Ovseenko (Antonov), N.V. Krylenko and P.E. Dybenko
People’s Commissar for Trade and Industry – V.P. Nogin
People’s Commissar for Public Education – A.V. Lunacharsky
People’s Commissar for Finance – I.I. Skvortsov (Stepanov)
People’s Commissar for Foreign Affairs – L.D. Bronstein (Trotsky)
People’s Commissar for Justice – G.I. Oppokov (Lomov)
People’s Commissar for Food – I.A. Teodorovich
People’s Commissar for Posts and Telegraphs – N.P. Avilov (Glebov)
.
By nationality:
Rykov, Milyutin, Shlyapnikov, Nogin, Lunacharsky, Skvortsov (Stepanov), Oppokov (Lomov), Avilov (Glebov) – Russians
Ovseenko, Krylenko and Dybenko – Ukrainians
Dzhugashvili (Stalin) – Ossetian
I. Teodorovich – Polish.
Trotsky (Bronstein) – Jewish
Your side used organized rape and targeted family killings as a weapon of war. While additional empathy belongs with civilians in Gaza who are also living and dying in hell, itâs a hell of Hamas creation. Apart from civilians who are being used by Hamas as pawns, your side has no moral leg to stand on as it is plain Hamas barbarians would do they same to all citizens of the West if they could⌠I have no doubt you are ashamed of their actions on October 7th but will not concede to that shame as it is counter to your cause⌠Never Again. (Next time, take the money and build a society instead of tunnels)âŚ.
My side? Infant.
This ainât a game.
Have you seen Palestinian prisoners appearance? Heard about the beatings and rapes? Held without charge.
So all of Gaza is ripe to be bombed because Hamas used human shields.
Look at Gaza.
What an adorable innocent you are.
My side is humanity.
You only know Zionist side, how about hearing the other side:
1947-48 Israel was created by ethnic cleansing of people who had lived there by massacre and terrorism.
E.G. Deir Yassin: Zionist militias killed every Man, Woman and Child in that village. They wanted Palestinians to flee for their lives.
âMy mother escaped with my 2 small brothers, who were 1 and 2.
My aunts and their small children were also with her.
When the Jews met them on the road, they wanted to kill my small brother and my cousins.
My mother and my aunts started to beg them and said: âWe will give you all the gold and the money we have, but do not kill our childrenâ The Jews did not listen to their pleas and killed my brothers and cousins in cold blood and told them: âNow , go away and tell everyone what you have seenââ
â Told to a Palestinian man by his mother, (who is the child in the story).
Also in 48, Zionists assassinated Count Bernadotte, who in the winter of 44-45 had using his Diplomatic status, had rescued many Jews from the death camps.
As UN peace commissioner, his peace plan included the right of return, to allow the civilians who had fled for their lives, to be able to return.
-This list goes on, but that’s enough for starters.
It is you who are totally ignorant!
Zionism – not a military conquest but purchasing land legally. Just as many Jews driven out of their homes in 1948 (in fact most Palestinians were not, but it is true that most were not allowed to return. Violence almost always instigated by the Arab side, starting in 1929.
All Palestinians actually HAD citizenship of a state – mostly Jordanian – between 1948 and 1967 and the entire area now envisaged for a Palestinian state was under Arab (Jordanian or Egyptian) sovereignty. Jordan was by the larger geographic part of the original British mandate of Palestine, though later administered separately. This was scuppered by Jordan involving itself in the 1967 war. Also, all the Jews expelled for East Jerusalem and the Old City, and certainly no allowance of Jews to worship at the Western Wall, in stark contrast to Israeli practice for Muslims.
Israel had social democratic governments for decades: did that bring it peace? No it did not. The Arab / Muslim / Palestinians side has endlessly resorted to pogrom, war, his jackings, murder (eg of Israeli athletes), terror and even alliance to Nazi Germany. Anything to destroy any Jewish state in whatever boundaries at all. Then of course belated the “international community” to reverse the consequences of their own aggression, so that they can have another go later.
It is true that the Palestinians have suffered, but also that they have been authors of their own misfortune. Truly terrible political leadership. The Arab states of course don’t really care about them.
So much more to say, but none of the things you are outraged about suddenly changed on 7 October 2023. Then you could see as clearly as would be possible, the true nature of Hamas: who did and would kill, rape, torture and abduction as many Jews as possible. They have received billions of pounds of aid by the way which they could have used to buildup civil society but instead spent on military infrastructure (deeply embedded by design) among the Gazan population.
“The US President has seemingly concluded that if he is to secure the long-term end of the war in Gaza, reach a deal with Saudi Arabia, and secure his place in the history books as the man who brought peace to the Middle East, Hamas needs to be eliminated.”
Rephrased for clarity….The surgeon has seemingly concluded that if he is to secure the long-term health of the patient, reach a deal with the insurance company, and secure his place in the medical journals as the man who cured his patients, the cancer needs to be eliminated.
Even if you killed every single member of Hamas it would not solve anything. A new organisation with the same goals would form quickly, and have plenty of volunteers.
To get a peace you have to get to where both sides accept that they are better off sticking to what they have rather than take the risk and cost of reopening the war and hope to get something better. The Palestinians have very little to lose, no other home to go to, plenty of justified grievances, and no reason to trust the Israelis. As long as Israel is an island in a sea of Muslims and all their fellow Muslims are on their side you cannot get them to give up hope – and unless you are willing to go for explicit genocide you are unlikely to scare them into compliance. Peace would take a deal that gave the Palestinians a decent life and something to lose while at the same time preventing Hamas or their successors from reopening the war. That is hard, or maybe impossible, but facile stuff about ‘cutting out the cancer’ can only led to pointless slaughter.
Had Hamas used all the aid to improve lives, rather than build tunnels and rockets, they might have had a deal that gave âPalestinians a decent life and something to lose.â
True enough – but the problem is exactly that not only Hamas but (I believe) a majority of Palestinians refuse to accept any deal that requires them to give up their claim to getting all the land back. You negotiate with the enemy you’ve got, not the one you would like to have.
And therein lies the problem. Israel isn’t giving the land back and it would be incredibly difficult to take it by force, even if they had the support of the entire Muslim world. That has already been attempted unsuccessfully on more than one occasion and given the relatively subdued reaction from Muslim governments towards the present conflict, there is little appetite for another attempt, accept maybe from Iran, who faces the problem that they don’t actually share a border with Israel and are limited to fighting through proxies. As long as the Palestinians cling to this suicidal notion of evicting the Israelis, the Israelis have no recourse but to keep punishing them in hopes that at some point, they’ll give up. There’s no solution to be found two state or otherwise, that doesn’t end with either the Palestinians willingly abandoning their claim to everything but the West Bank and Gaza strip or their complete destruction. Those are the choices, and they’ve consistently chosen the latter.
Does that mean Israel is now free to kill or evict the Palestinians and annex Gaza and the West Bank for Israeli settlers?
In principle, I’d say no, and I’d rather they didn’t, but this is war, and Israel can’t unilaterally declare peace. They’ve tried that and it hasn’t worked. They have offered to return to the pre-1967 boundaries on more than one occasion and each time the Palestinians have refused, demanding ‘the river to the sea’. It doesn’t matter whether you or I or any other American or European thinks that’s fair or not because at the end of the day, this is a series of wars that has been going on for nearly eight decades now. The Palestinians have lost every single time, and Israel still offered to return to the 1967 boundaries in exchange for peace and the same concession that every loser of every war has had to make when they sue for peace, that whatever land they’ve lost is lost and they’re not getting it back. This was and is the best deal the Palestinians will ever get, and they have consistently rejected it and implicitly chosen further warfare. When the Palestinians want peace badly enough to accept the reality that they are never getting back the lands that constitute modern day Israel, that’s when peace will be possible. Otherwise, the war will continue until the Palestinians are utterly destroyed, evicted, or forced to flee, or it will continue on forever, and there’s not much we westerners can do but leave them to it. It’s not our war, and none of our intervention to this point has brought it any closer to resolution.
Actually, Israel never offered any such thing except in there propaganda. And actually, the Palestinians have accepted half a loaf only to find that their were more and more strings attached. You really need to hear the other side of the story of Zionism. The entire world knows the Israeli version of events. If you bothered to find out the other side, you might be very shocked.
Oh I don’t deny there’s two sides of the story. Zionism was basically invasion by legal, purposeful immigration. They purposefully crowded out the people living there at the time and are in fact still doing so. I am aware of the facts. They did this legally and with the permission of the Ottoman and then British governments. The movement became so popular that the Jews soon outnumbered the natives. This is basically how America exists at all, by the way. The lands that constitute the present USA were sparsely inhabited by natives, but they were inhabited, and many European colonists moved into the area and developed the land, so many that they far outnumbered the natives. They did this under the law at the time and were not doing anything ‘wrong’ by the moral or legal standards of that era. It isn’t until much more recently that we got this idea that the land ‘belongs’ to native people regardless of how many there are and somehow those who move into this land are ‘colonizers’ or ‘occupiers’. There is no logical, historical, objective reason for this to be the case, as there are many examples of how people moved about and lived in different areas at different times. No, that is a moral judgement based on our modern notions of fairness. If you’re going to make moral judgements about things that happened before the moral in question actually existed, then we have nothing to discuss rationally.
The facts are that the Jews did settle in the area of modern Israel and did come to outnumber the inhabitants. In 1948, the Arabs fought a war to evict them and lost, and there are consequences for losing a war. They tried again on several more occasions and mostly lost those as well. They did not succeed in evicting the Jews and the Jews built a modern, functional, civil society and a government that is trustworthy, organized, and can be trusted to keep civil order and not commit unprovoked acts of war against neighbors. They have since made peace with Egypt and honored that treaty. They have established a de facto peace with most of the Islamic world by generally being a decent neighbor and not causing trouble. The Palestinians are still trying to do what they were doing in 1948, evict the Jews and retake ‘their’ land from the river to the sea. One side is being reasonable and pragmatic. The other is not. Who has the right to what land under which system of morality modern or ancient is beside the point. The Palestinians may have a legitimate claim to the lands that now constitute Israel, but it’s over. They fought, they lost, and it’s over. Israel is there now, and unlikely to leave voluntarily, or submit to outside pressure to allow a large number of the former occupants back into the country that they now consider to belong to them. It may or may not be fair, but the reality is that the odds of the Palestinians on their own defeating Israel are basically zero. If any other Arab nation was going to come to their aid, surely they would have by now. No help is coming. It makes zero sense to continue to hold the hostages and continue the conflict. All it will gain is further destruction, and they don’t care because they’re fighting a suicidal holy war. You can pity them if you like, but you can no more get them to abandon their terrorist ways or their stated desire to evict the Jews and concede ‘their lands’ are lost forever because of the outcome of a war than the Israelis can.
Ask Clinton, dummy
Yeah thatâs a good point El.
Clinton wouldnât lie.
Ask him.
“Had Hamas used all the aid to improve lives,”
Gaza has been an open air prison/concentration camp for at least 30 years if not more. It would be impossible to improve the conditions of the people in such a situation.
Also, Israel gets a lot of aid. A vast amount of that aid goes to weapons and other such things. Why is it that it is right and just for Israel to arm, but everyone else must be defenseless?
In 47-48, the Zionists ethnically cleansed what is now “green line” Israel. People who had lived in the area for generations were driven out by terrorism, murder and massacre. Those in the WB and Gaza are where they ended up. In 67 Israel conqured the rest of Palestine and forced those who had already been kicked off their land once, into abject subjegation.
You sound like a souther slave owner justifying slavery because the black folk are incapable of civilization and need to be treated in such a manner.
Why is âpointless slaughterâ only a one way proposition? Why does killing Jews have a point?
Because the pointless slaughter – check the numbers of women and children slaughtered – along with the universities and all infrastructure.
Warren, if you donât think that the complete obliteration of Gaza was the point from the start then listen to the great improviser Donald. He knows – he had a 100 million to convince him from the Zionist Vegas widow- and he has the child like innocence not to dress it up.
Yes, precisely. That is what LOSING a war is all about, for heaven’s sake. Why would Hamas allow this to happen to their own people? Is there anyone on planet earth that believes Hamas can eliminate Israel militarily? They are bloodthirsty, medieval barbarians and even their own people don’t want them. Plenty of women and children have perished in wars since the beginning of time, including this conflict, which is about 5000 years old now.
One can pretend reality doesn’t exist, do nothing different and this tragedy can go on for another 5000 years, or a different solution can be tried.
The solution is two states warren. Like the rest of the world has been calling for. Maybe try that? Or one state. But apartheid fans, like you, wouldnât go for that because the Zionist cause would be finished. All ur language of Barbarism and savagery. Because knives and kites were used instead of drones and AI? It isnât a war. Itâs an ethnic cleansing. 300 innocent Palestinians – women and children among them – were killed in the year leading up to Oct 7. Should they keep calm and carry on in their prison as the colonisers take more land and kill more people? What would you do? âTerrorismâ is a result of oppression.
Yaa just like 9/11 was terrorism born of the oppression of one of the richest men in the world who was educated in Western universities. He was so oppressed that he had no choice but to take 3000 innocent lives⌠Say what you will, so many of us in the West see October 7th for the barbarism that it was. It was a disaster for your side and your reaping the results which is horrible for the civilians caught up in the fightingâŚ
I, for one, haven’t forgotten 9/11. I think there’s probably a silent majority of Americans, the ones old enough to remember where they were on 9/11, who do sympathize with Israel and understand the necessity of punishing acts like this so they are never repeated. A lot of the people protesting Gaza are young enough they don’t remember 9/11 or don’t remember it very well but do remember the colossal mistakes that followed in the Iraq war and the occupation. Perhaps Martin is one of these. We are all to an extent prisoners of the moment, shaped by our own experiences, and for those of us who lived through it, 9/11 was a trauma that simply could not go unanswered or unpunished. Israel is in the same position now as the US was then.
There is no two-state solution, for the glaringly obvious reason that the Palestinian Arabs do not actually want a state of their own. What they want is to destroy the Jewish one and slaughter the Jews who live there. Until that idea is beaten out of them there can be no progress or peace.
Obviously you’ve been drinking plenty of kool-aid. Would you believe that before the Zionist project began, Moslems, Jews and Christians lived in this land in relative harmony and mutual respect. The problems began with outsiders from Europe started immigrating in, in ever increasing numbers. These foriegners were looking to create a “Jewish State”. The native Christians and Moslems found themselves being disposessed of their land. (Yes, the Jews bought the land, but not from them, British policies which favored the newcomers, taxed the natives exhorbitantly and their land was then siezed and sold for back taxes).
Many of the native Jews didn’t like what was going on, (after all, they had more in common with the other natives than these Europeans, but they found out it was “tow the line”, or else.
I grew up, only knowing the Zionist version of events. But I’m the sort of person who knows that there are two sides to every story and I found out what the other side is. If you value peace and have any humanity, you should too.
You are correct. For peace to work, both sides have to acknowledge the other’s right to exist, or at least acknowledge that they can’t destroy the other side. Israel withdrew from Gaza a decade and a half ago. In so doing, they have effectively recognized that Gaza belongs to the Palestinians. Despite that recognition, on Oct 7th 2023, Hamas launched an unprovoked attack against Israel, targeting civilians, taking hostages, and ignoring all the established rules of modern warfare. Israel responded by attempting to destroy Hamas, but more fundamentally, what has to happen is as you say, both sides have to agree that peace is better than war. If all the Palestinians do after Israel’s withdraw is put another copy of Hamas in charge and they continue to demand Israel’s extinction, from the river to the sea, then the situation has not improved, and a state of war still exists. For that state of war to end, both sides must be committed to peace and be willing to accept that they won’t get everything they want. Israel has already defeated the Palestinians and their Muslim neighbors several times, and indeed made peace with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and others. Yet some fight on, still clamoring for the destruction of Israel, and Israel has little choice but to fight them. The only solution is to continue the war and continue to kill Palestinians until they agree to acknowledge that Israel is not going to be destroyed and there will never be a Palestine from the river to the sea. The only other solution would be for some neutral third party to intervene and administer Gaza and act to govern the area and suppress terrorism to keep the peace by force, but who? Egypt could have tried to annex an unoccupied Gaza at any point since Israel’s withdrawal, yet they did not. Other middle eastern nations who might be acceptable as occupiers to the Palestinians have likewise failed to intervene. There is nothing to be done but continue to fight the war to its conclusion and continue to fight the Palestinians until they voluntarily give up, or there are no more Palestinians. War is hell, and those who make war like Hamas would do well to remember that in war there are winners, and there are losers, and the winners write the history and decide what was fair and what was justified.
I agree
“Israel withdrew from Gaza a decade and a half ago. In so doing, they have effectively recognized that Gaza belongs to the Palestinians”.
The IDF withdrew from Gaza, but only in the sence that prison guards withdraw from the cell blocks during lock down. Also they did not withdraw because the recognized the right of the Palestinians to rule themselves. Gaza had become too hot to handle, so it was a retreat, not a withdrawal.
Israel controlled all egress into and out of Gaza. It controlled all utilities. Sometime lookup the “March of Return” which took place in 2019. The Palestinians protested their prison by demonstrating at the prison wall. The IDF responce was snipers.
You only know one side of the story. You should learn what the other side is.
âThe cancer needs to be eliminatedâ?
You get that from mein kampf?
No, it’s a simple analogy that is very apropos. Only one side in this very long saga exists solely to kill. Hamas is not like the Mormons or the Amish.
They are more like Zionists?
Religious nutcases?
I agree.
Look at the numbers killed warren.
It used to be Israel couldnât make peace because the Palestinians wouldnât recognise and Jewish state. Then they did. Thereâs always an excuse and Bibi and his psychopathy, his narcissism, and his wanting to be remembered as the Zionist Lion of Judea has seduced you and frazzled yr ability to reason.
The big problem now is still that there is no sign that the Palestinian side will stop fighting for more even if they get a state. Who will prevent Hams from re-running october 7th once they have their own state to do it from – with open borders where they can import weapons and advisors? There are people on the Israeli side too who do not want peace because they insist on getting all the land for themselves, but for the rest: why would they do a land-for-peace deal if the peace is not on offer?
What you don’t understand is that since the Nakbah, (literally catastrophe), when the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from land they had lived on for generations. These people have lived in regugee camps. Those that were already in the WB and Gaza were overwhelmed with refugees from “Green Line” Israel. After 67, they were occupied people and treated like dirt by the conqueres.
What do you think of Nat Turner’s rebellion. It was nasty and horrible. But anyone who expects slaves to not do something like that given a chance does not understand human nature.
Israel has consistantly given the natives of this land nothing to lose. And then Israel wonders why they just don’t say “Yes, massa, we just love it that massa is so kind to us”.
Hamas would be nothing more than a fringe group if the Palestinians actually had a stake. Hamas is not a cause of the plight of the Palestinians, it is a symptom.
Actually, I do understand that. There is nothing in your post that I could disagree with. But where do you want to go from here? Do you want peace? The only peace that could possibly hold would be a variant of the two-state solution, and that requires the Palestinians to swallow the injustice and the loss, stop fighting and give up the right of return, once they have their statelet. If they do not want to do that, that is perfectly understandable, but that means that the war will continue forever, or until one side or the other is too destroyed to keep going. All that is left then is who you want to win. And here I root for Israel – even a Nakbah-2 would be a lot less bloody than having Hamas in power and re-running October 7 ‘from the river to the sea’. How do you expect this to end?
What to do is a tricky situation. The original Zionists expected that after they had demonstrated to the “natives” that the could not win, that they would accept the inevitable and either leave or Kow-Tow. Many did. Many more did not.
As demonstrated by the croweds of Palestinians returning to the north of the Gaza strip once the cease file took effect. These people are not going to bend. The 47-48 Nakbah was against peaceful villagers, the majority of whom wanted to live at let live. The current Palestinians have been hardened by 75 years of living under the foot of an oppressor. Removing them will be practically impossible. Moreover, while the rulers of the Arab nations would like to cut a deal and throw the Pals under the bus, their subjects do not see it that way. Every regime in the ME is built upon shifting sand. Expelling the Pals would guarantee the collapse of all “Moderate” governments and their replacement by governments truely commited to throwing all Israelis into the sea.
As Sherlock once famously said, “When you have eliminated what is impossible, what is left, no matter how improbably is . . . “. There are only 5 solutions. Extermination of one or the other sides. A two state solution. A democratic one state solution. Or what we have now, a repressive apartheid one state solution. To my way of thinking. The only solutions that have a possibility of working are the democratic one state, or the two-state.
Actually though I would favor what I call the two-and a half state solutin. 3 states, one Pal, one Jew, one both. A federated system more on line with the original partition plan which called for a central area to be administered by some umbrella organization. Jerusalem itself would be governed by the 3rd, with UN peace keepers added to the mix. The other areas would vote for which of the 3 they wanted to be in. Granularity would be a major issue.
Rasmus,
Thanks for the clarification and for the acknowledgement of what the West now confronts. And my apology for misunderstanding your position. The question you ask is the one we’re all asking since only a few crazy people actually want genocide, except for Hamas and Hezbollah. I certainly don’t want anything to do with mass murder, or even moving people to another location.
Still my complaint takes the form of projecting forward the likely consequence of not defeating Hamas. It seem abundantly clear they have NO interest in a two state solution, something they’ve rejected over and over again. And, it is also just as clear that Israel cannot continue to be on guard forever against their indefensible and horrific warfare. Thus we now confront a dilemma, for which I can only see ugly outcomes. But if that be the case, I too root for the only democracy in the MI, for a country that does not commit and approve of the raping and slaughtering of human beings, after which they celebrate their dirty work.
Whenever I read people wanting to justify such inhumanity by blaming Israel for the butchery of Hamas, I can only conclude they support Hamas no matter what. Their feeble condemnation of Hamas followed by their strident attacks on Israeli defending itself from those butchers, reveals a lot about their judgment, perhaps about what they take to be the history of what they are pleased to call western colonialism, imperialism, and the like. So sad is the one dimensionality of their analysis that they cannot bring themselves to condemn unequivocally, unconditionally the thugs that Hamas represents. There’s always a “but Israel” that follows, which is to reveal where they really stand on the question of Israel’s right to exist.
So I surely would rather have the “Palestinians” living side-by-side with Israel, acknowledging the serious disaster that will befall them unless they do. But I can’t see that happening ever, nor can I see any other way ahead try as I might.
Thanks again for your response.
To Mark,
So you choose not to acknowledge the various olive leafs offered to the “Palestinians” over the past 77 years, including Israel’s withdrawing from Gaza completely, including multiple offers of a two state solution which owing to the slaughtering of women and children on October 7, is forever off the table.
You blame Israel for everything then which should strike any reasonable person as wrong headed, as legitimizing any tactics by Hamas, their anti-West pronouncements, and their desire to see Islam dominate the world. Everything they do would indicate a very dangerous, murderous and unyielding group of fanatics. And your best account suggests they only exist because of everything Israel has done. Until you at least acknowledge what Israel has offered and why you think those offers were not enough, your judgement should appear to rational thinkers as deeply flawed.
Oh Martin, calling into question Warren’s ability to reason and claiming he has been seduced by Bibi suggests you have no arrows left in your quiver and must resort to pointless insults. There are many reasonable people who have long memories, one of which is the “Palestinians” continual rejection of a two state solution, offered multiple times by Israel.
Perhaps you’ve been seduced by the many false claims that they actually accepted one of those offers. They haven’t, and while you claim falsely that Bibi never wanted that solution, the Palestinians only want the blood of Jews, the radical Islamists being antisemites and not surprisingly, anti-western civilization.
So look at who’s being seduced by a disgusting horde of radical Islamists. For goodness sake, try reading their literature, examine what they teach in their schools, see how they manage their political control, how they place their people directly in the path of Israeli bombs in hospitals and schools. Using all the monies they’ve received even from the U.S. indirectly to build those tunnels should suggest to you they aren’t at all serious about a two state solution. You should believe them.
Oh Ralph, I am no fan of Hamas.
Yes, they are nutters. Have you listened to what the Israelis are saying? Kill every last one? They say it on tv for Effs sake. They say out loud what they think. No innocents in Gaza.
Do you object to that sentiment?
Yes, Iâm sure there are Hamas kids books that are insane. Do you not think that there are some bloodthirsty and genocidal maniacs in Israel? Smotrich and Ben Giver? Listen to them. Look at Gaza. Look at it. All because of human shields? The Israelis want to move them out and now at least trump has said the quiet part out loud. This was the plan all along. Did you object when Israel âmow the lawnâ every year or so before Oct 7? What do you expect the response to be? terrorism. And the original Zionists, who blew up buildings and terrorised the native population. Terrorists?
To Martin Kane:
Why do you insist on inserting one line descriptions into explanations that are far more complex and which explanations detail the problematic that confronts the combatants in the region. Your responses continue to provide a far left account of why it is Hamas operates the way they do: The creation of the state of Israel is responsible for the theft of land that obviously according to you belonged to the “Palestinians”. It’s all Israel’s fault along with the colonizing West. That far left account doesn’t consider any other factors, any historical facts about their status, about the radical jihadists who see the rise of Islam as more important than humanity itself.
So you point to “colonisation” as the basis for the horrific acts of violence directed against Israel, to the theft of land belonging to what the Islamists call “the Palestinian Peoples”, to the brutalization by Israel of them after winning the multiple wars against those attempting to commit genocide against the jews.
So you appear like many leftists to gave only lip service to Israel’s right to survive, yet give one excuse after another to the monsters who rape women and children, committing war crimes while their people cheer them on, celebrating their inhumanity. Thus do you expose yourself as a phony who claims to support a two state solution but who really wishes Israel would just go away, or worse that Hamas would defeat them and in the process commit genocide against them. Does the phrase “Never Again” mean anything to you?
Never again ? Back yard rockets and kites? Never again. Look at Gaza. Is this an attack on Hamas? All the wreckage was an obvious attempt at ethnic cleansing. Would you agree or not? Every building had Hamas? . The hospitals and universities blown up. Hamas? Do you think – like nearly all the world, Sans Israel,US and the great Micronesia – that a two state solution is the only answer? Should Israel just take the West Bank too? Hamas in West Bank? Are you ok with Mobs of religious nuts taking land and burning houses in the West Bank? Will the Palestinians even graduate to say â never againâ?
Itâs a common tactic from those on the âfar rightâ to always bring up the holocaust. The Europeans did the holocaust, and it was the European countries who refused to take in Jews when the pogroms were in full flight.
It was the Europeans who debated where to send the Jews. You can read about the whole deal of how the Palestine area was chosen, and who in Europe was for it.
Im not far left at all. Itâs a stupid and easy way to paint me as having an agenda. Some of the best historians and intellectuals who have educated me on this have been Israelis and American Jews.
What is left and right anymore?
The whole world has been up in arms over this. All anti semites yeah?
The intention was ethnic cleansing.
Donald bluntly states it at least.
This essay does capture the situation in a nutshell. Over the past 8 years Donald Trump has sometimes shown genius in negotiations, like his brilliant years-long back and forth with Kim Jong Un of North Korea. But he has also sometimes shown stupidity in negotiations, almost Chauncey Gardiner-like stupidity, like with his Gaza Plaza harebrained scheme. Sadly, his aging seems to be muting the genius and strengthening the stupidity.
Hamas in Gaza does seem like an intractable problem that must be eliminated one way or another. But a return to war will just be a return to the barbaric slaughter of Gazans who had finally just returned to their homes (or in most cases returned to where their homes had been, to find only rubble). Yet war is as unlikely to eliminate Hamas this time as last.
We need a solution of genius but maybe there isn’t one for this complex problem. Sadly, there are plenty of solutions of stupidity, and it looks we’ll get one of those. You can count on Hamas in particular to be as stupid as can be.
Before they shadowban me yet again: We disagree on a lot, but you seem to be one of very few commentators here who deals with the real world and does not live in fantasyland. Thanks for your contributions.
To Carlos and Rasmus:
Giving Hamas and by extension the majority of their people/slaves any justification for the slaughter they have committed, for their consistent demands to destroy the country of Israel, for their barbarism, and for their attacks on western civilization, is both foolish and dangerous. Hardly anyone would have thought the Nazis, if offered the Sudetenland, could be convinced to lay down their weapons (See the history of the “appeaser-in-chief” Neville Chamberlain).
The only way the situation in Gaza will be resolved is after the complete destruction of Hamas and ALL of its supporters. Thinking there might be another solution to the “Palestinian” problem is the problem, especially while the tunnels beneath Gaza have not been destroyed along with those who built them.
Worrying about the entrance of others wishing to destroy Israel only signals weakness to the Islamist hordes. If you’re going to fight a war against a barbaric tribe of malcontents, you should fight to destroy them such that they either surrender or are exterminated. There really isn’t anything in between so those who call for restraint out of fear of stirring up additional enemies reveal only weakness to the other barbarians in the region.
OK, let us try to go through the consequences:
That worked for the Roman empire: If an area rebelled, the inhabitants would be either massacred or sold into slavery. People submitted. It would take that level of repression to terrorise the Palestinians into submission, though – note that the current war in Gaza has not been enough. I really do not think that the Israelis would be willing to do that much killing (personally I would reject it as immoral and I suspect most Israelis would agree), and even if they did do it they would lose diplomatic and military support they depend on.
That leaves one alternative: Israel reoccupies Gaza, saturates it with police, and suppresses Hamas close up. They have tried that, but they gave it up – they lost too many policemen, I guess. Not a solution either.
How about you: Will you come out in favour of exterminating the Palestinians until they submitted? Solve the conflict by mass murder? If you do, then let us hear you say it.
Why would you use the term mass murder? Did you think dropping two nuclear bombs on the crazy emperor of Japan was mass murder or the consequence of a suicidal leader refusing to surrender? We were in a war, just like Israel is, and thus it was vital to defeat them anyway they could. While the dropping of those two bombs was most unfortunate, the surrender came quickly afterwards, sparing possibly hundreds of thousands Allied soldiers from fighting house to house. I needn’t tell you how that conflict ended, and what our relation is to Japan is now, right?
The Palestinians aren’t interested in peace or two state solutions. They want the destruction of Israel and all its citizens (note there is no concept of citizens among the Gazans. They’re just tools being used by the anti-western forces including Iran and elsewhere in the MI).
I have no interest in getting the Gazans to submit. I only care to make it plainly obvious that what they’ve done and continue to do will result in their annihilation, leading to their own futile efforts to seek refuge somewhere else in the region. Pity that no other country wants them. Have you asked yourself why that is?
Just so we’re clear about the question of what to do, you haven’t actually offered a way out of what will be a defeat for the Gazans. How do you imagine it will end? No answer from you would indicate things won’t end well for the miscreants in the tunnels, just as those Japanese soldiers in the caves in the South Pacific theater refused to surrender and were killed. How is that different from the position I took. Does Israel really have a choice when confronted with those specific barbarians? Really?
As for the Roman Empire, surely you don’t believe in monocausal explanations for a very complicated decline in an empire, something that has generally happened to all empires. So trying to make the case that it was futile to try to defeat those barbarians at the gates of Rome needs clarification that would reveal the many other factors that prevented the Romans finally succeeding in defending their empire. Simplistic comparisons don’t offer historical lessons for us. They never do.
You misunderstand me. The Roman empire was extremely successful in keeping the subject populations down, If any local act of rebellion can mean having the entire local population killed or sold as slaves, the locals will submit in terror and dob in would-be rebels to escape the retribution.If Israel, say, deliberately killed 100000 people for every cross-border attack, the attacks might well stop- or if they did not there would soon be no more Gazans. It would take something like that, though, since even the current war with up to 50000 dead is not enough to get the Gazan population to rebel against Hamas and help their invaders. The trouble is, I reject that kind of tactics as evil, and so do most of Israel’s allies and (I am sure) most of Israel’s citizens. It is called genocide for a reason. Are you in favour of that?
As for defeating the Gazans, if 50000 dead and 80% o the buildings destroyed is not enough for you, what would be?
Reply to Rasmus Fogh and Carlos and Rasmus:
Giving Hamas and by extension the majority of their people/slaves any justification for the slaughter they have committed, for their consistent demands to destroy the country of Israel, for their barbarism, and for their attacks on western civilization, is both foolish and dangerous. Hardly anyone would have thought the Nazis, if offered the Sudetenland, could be convinced to lay down their weapons (See the history of the âappeaser-in-chiefâ Neville Chamberlain).
The only way the situation in Gaza will be resolved is after the complete destruction of Hamas and ALL of its supporters. Thinking there might be another solution to the âPalestinianâ problem is the problem, especially while the tunnels beneath Gaza have not been destroyed along with those who built them.
Worrying about the entrance of others wishing to destroy Israel only signals weakness to the Islamist hordes. If youâre going to fight a war against a barbaric tribe of malcontents, you should fight to destroy them such that they either surrender or are exterminated. There really isnât anything in between so those who call for restraint out of fear of stirring up additional enemies reveal only weakness to the other barbarians in the region.
If Trumps wants Hamas âeliminatedâ, then he needs to remove Palestinian civilians to the Sinai peninsula. Provide, fully resourced refugee camps, for a clearly defined set period of time. Anyone left In Gaza is a target, PERIOD.
Six months should do itâŚâŚ.
Problem solved.
Next problem: Keeping those Palestinians (or just the more aggressive ones) from overthrowing the Egyptian government, starting a civil war in Egypt – and firing rockets at the Gaza Plaza resort. Moving them to Alaska or Alabama would at least protect Israel and Gaza Plaza, but would still leave you with suppressing the terrorist organisations of the future – not to mention finding a way of maintaining peace with their new neighbours.
No matter how immensely complicated a problem is there is always a simple straightforward solution – that is inevitably wrong.
Have you read history?
You sound like Europeans talking about what to do with the Jews. Do you get it? Shall we find a find a land without a people for a people without a land?
One inconvenient difference there. The Jews of Europe didn’t exist to kill all their neighbors. Hamas does.
You miss the point. What was the reason that the Europeans didnât want to take in any Jews?
Sharpen your antennae a bit: My point was that ethnic cleansing would not work, not that it should be tried.There has been places where it did work – the Greeks are not going to war to take back Smyrna, and the Germans will not be going back to East Prussia or the Sudetenland. But in those places the displaced people had a homeland to go to and in Palestine they do not. You could have a moral discussion whether ‘population exchange’ is worth it if it is the only way to get peace. But since in this case it would not work it would just be a senseless crime. No need to discuss that.
Psychopath.
Ethnic cleansing fan.
Genius idea Tom.
Howâd you come up with that?
I wonder if theyâll leaveâŚ.
Hmm, Me trump has already said they wonât be allowed back. Yes, he tried to walk it back a little, but the Palestinians heard it.
Problem solved indeed.
No one seems to have any idea how Gaza could be rebuilt and although Trump,is laughed at,he has a point. Build,what Hamas certainly donât want, housing ofa good standard and bring in development and there might be a chance . Hamas has played the hostage game well and it might get others following but surely two can play at that game ,like Putin does.Two state solution is dead.
If a two state solution is a non starter, then give those living in a single state full voting rights to the Knesset, including Gaza and the West Bank.
If the Israelis were in danger of losing a Jewish majority perhaps theyâd be more inclined to give the Palestinians a country of their own to prevent it happening, perhaps with a Korean style DMZ between them
Brilliant suggestion there BB. Perhaps you should move to Gaza and open up a gay bar that only serves bacon.
I could do the same amongst the ultra Orthodox Jews, although Im not sure what that has to do with anything Iâve said
And here with have the anti Muslim animus. Bacon and sodomy. Ask the Orthodox Jews about that too.
Plenty of Christians in Gaza too Wazza.
What do want to do with them?
The big problem is not giving the Palestinians a (small) country of their own. The problem is making sure that they do not use it to rearm and re-fight the wars of 1948 or 1967 from a better starting point.
Re fight the wars??
Just accept colonisation then?
You seem to be a good example – clearly you will not accept anything less than total victory for the Palestinians. Unfortunately throwing around words like ‘colonisation’ does not make a difference. You have two peoples here. Both have solid reasons to think that all the land is theirs by right, neither have anywhere else to go, and they have very good reason to hate and fear and distrust each other. There are no nice solutions here. Either there is a compromise that both sides accept – unjust as it may be – or the war keeps going till one side or the other ends it by the total and final destruction of the other. In the latter case my money is on the Israelis to win, but one way or the other those are the choices.
The two state solution has been accepted by the Palestinians. What are those two states though? Look at what Israel are doing in the West Bank. Do you think they are serious actors here? I mean the current government especially. Israel has the support and weaponry of the UK and US to back them up. They simply want the Palestinians to go away. They want the greater Israel that their religious bible quoting nuts want. What will the Palestinians do? Accept a nice house in the Sinai? Me thinks not. Israel donât want two states. Would you agree with that?
A lot of Israelis want all the land for themselves with the foreigners all pushed out (as do a majority of Palestinians, BTW). A lot of others would give up part of their claim for a stable peace, but can see nothing like that on offer. I cannot put numbers on the two groups – but October 7 surely convinced many Israelis that there can never be peace with the Palestinians. Still, a credible offer of peace with a two-state solution could get a lot of traction in Israel. It is the Palestinian who are not willing to offer it, IMHO.
‘The two-state solution has been accepted by the Palestinians‘ as a permanent solution? Or just as a useful step towards the final goal of victory? Can you point me to what exactly they have accepted? Peace requires some kind of guarantee that the Palestinians will not just start the war again when they are ready, and that they will keep their more intemperate brethren from doing it on their behalf.
Back when Arafat was negotiating with Rabin I seem to remember that when the proposal for a final peace came up, Arafat raised the demand for the right of return. And a number of Palestinians said that the right of return was an individual right, that no one could give away on their behalf. Now, very obviously, as long as the Palestinians demand the right of return there will be no lasting peace. If they get to return, they have the vote in Israel which will no longer be a state where the Jews feel safe and can be expected to shortly erupt in a civil war.And if they do not get to return they will not accept the situation and will concentrate their energies on trying get back, rather than making the best of the situation they are in.
Iâd argue the Israelis are just as untrustworthy as the Palestinians though. You just have to look at the West Bank where the PA donât launch attacks, allow Israel to carry out raids and even hand over suspected terrorists and their reward for doing so is to have an ever increasing number of Palestinians violently evicted from their land by Israeli settlers.
No one is going gain anything from this.
Give the Gaza Strip back to the Egyptians as it was until 1967.
Israel by design built into the ceasefire deal
That it would collapse at a juncture
Of Israeli choosing
Why because the very last thing Israel must avoid is Free and Total
Access to the Worlds Press and journalists to discover and reveal the Awful truth with regards the War crimes commited by Israel
And the complicity of US and others enabling these crimes by way of the supply of weaponry and
Ordnance to facilitate such destruction and criminality
Hard to argue with any of that Brian.
So they wonât.
To Brian Doyle:
It would be difficult to impossible for you to claim that the world doesn’t know “the Awful truth with regards [to] the War crimes commited by Israel” when a large number of newspapers, cable news sites and other medi around the world were busy announcing the daily death toll from Israel’s war in Gaza. Of course the only data they have generally comes from the monsters themselves who have forced Gazans to remain in harm’s way there to increase the “victims” and the world’s ire against Israel hoping to thereby secure world opinion against it.
By the way, what percentage of those killed in Gaza are the murderers hiding in the tunnels, do you know? Oh I guess you never thought of the fact that Hamas has what they are pleased to call the soldiers of Islam and they are deservedly the actual targets of Israel’s war, not the so called innocent civilians. You do know that Israel goes well out of their way to avoid killing innocents, while Hamas goes well out of theirs to target them, or any other infidels. But don’t let a silly distinction stand in your way to condemning Israel and the entire West for that matter.
Hamas treats their people as useful canon fodder, and their attack on Israel is not forced by the oppression they’ve supposedly suffered at their hands. Simply identify the West and all their allies as the culprits here. That’s a nice simple message, which should identify you as the extreme leftist you are.
You obviously don’t think Israel has the right every country does to defend itself against the MI’s version of Nazis, the Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya (Islamic Resistance Movement). You’ll notice that name for their “organization” isn’t the same as Palestinians for a free state, or for an independent entity in the MI. Thus you must also think the state of Israel is a colonial power, supported by other colonial powers who have committed terrible crimes against humanity. You justify that view without regard for everything Israel has done to make peace with their neighbors who are on an entirely other mission, the defeat of the West with you as one of the apologists for the murderers.
Trump wants a one state solution, which means (without him saying it) one man one vote for whoever lives in the one state. He backs Israel to the hilt because he knows that if they win they lose.
May Hamas reap the whirlwind. They are solely to blame for the deaths of their âmartyrsâ. They have in the words of Johnny Rotten,
âNo Futureâ.