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How the identity cult captured America Equity was born in an ideological graveyard

Rise up against what? (Stefani Reynolds / AFP via Getty)

Rise up against what? (Stefani Reynolds / AFP via Getty)


June 17, 2023   9 mins

We live in a time of ideological exhaustion. Our doctrines and ideals lie broken in pieces all around us and never fit into a whole. Jagged bits of Marxism and anarchism, nationalism and liberalism, clutter the landscape, tear at our feet and impede our way as we stagger onward in search of some promised land. Yet there can be no promised land, no future, no past, in such a psychotic jumble of first principles. All we can muster is rage at the structures around us, so inexplicably shattered, and the urge not to repair but to obliterate them totally — to negate them into dust.

Identity is the ruling orthodoxy of the day. Wesley Yang calls it the “successor ideology”, but it is less an ideology than a cockpit of grinding, wounding grievances contradicting one another: a perpetual conflict machine. Any piece of it, such as racial justice, can make perfect sense, but the whole dissolves into incoherence when it becomes clear that the highest ideal, equity, is a weasel word used to mask an inability to reconcile opposites.

Definitions of equity, whether provided by the White House or by elite universities, are baffling, I suspect intentionally so. Terms such as “fairness” and “anti-racist” are thrown around — but somehow this adds up to “investment” and “allocating resources” favouring designated grievance groups. Equity, in practice, means absolute equality of outcomes in all transactions, measured not in the liberal tradition, between individuals, but harking back to a more primitive outlook: between castes to which we have been assigned by birth and fate.

How does this work? The first step is simple enough. Government must intervene in every transaction to assure equal outcomes. If white males have an average “privilege value” of 100 and black males have an average of, say, 50, the government must take from one and give to the other until both share the identical value of 75. But what of black women — shouldn’t they receive a higher multiple than black men? And what of many Asian-American groups that have achieved a higher average than white males — should they be downranked and de-grievanced? And what of more intangible factors such as education, a good marriage and family life, raw ability at work and play, a sense of humour, happiness? Can government make the “historically underserved” laugh and the overserved cry?

The purpose of ideology is to lay down rules of the road that lead to a specific vision of the just society. Identity is the opposite of that. Equity is just a three-syllable sound. It explains nothing and resolves nothing. Put aside obvious questions about regressing to a system of lineage-based justice that throws overboard the legacy of individual rights, or about the overwhelming display of state power required to impose that system on an unwilling public. I’m talking about pure functionality.

Whatever identity is, it doesn’t do the work of an ideology. Stitched together from the bits and pieces of moribund ideas received by the educated class, identity exemplifies the contemporary preference for bowing to the applause of an imaginary audience over the hard work needed to connect two consecutive thoughts. The causes of this intellectual flabbiness are frankly puzzling. The more credentials we heap on ourselves, and the more information we gather, the less connected we seem to reality.

Unnoticed, a vast chunk of the context that once measured our well-being has crumbled away, leaving us sick at heart and disoriented. Suicide and drug overdose deaths are rising. Many who are ostensibly healthy have been sucked into the moral vacuum of digital politics, substituting vehemence for meaning, posturing for productive action. Now and then, some shallow misfit detonates into a massacre of innocent strangers. Nihilism, the will to destroy whatever stands, is the guiding instinct of the day. Ideology, let us not forget, is also a creed, a set of beliefs dependent on faith, as much as it is a system of ideas — and the sterility of our moment, of which identity is a pathological example, may be derived less from intellectual failure than from a chronic and agonising spiritual condition.

***

Every ideology worthy of the name envisions a perfect end-state: a utopia. The kingdom of God may be near at hand or far in time and distance, real or fantastic, but in every case it performs an important function: it engenders hope and faith. If only we play by the accepted rules, human relations — that cauldron of selfishness and misery — will at last be reconciled. After resurrection, Jesus preached, we will be “as the angels are in heaven”. Under pure communism, the brutal strength of the state will wither away and we will each be given according to our needs. American democracy, in its high modernist phase, aimed for the Great Society; under more conservative hands, it looked to be a shining city on a hill.

In this sense, the cult of identity is exceedingly utopian: believers judge established institutions against perfection, then reject the lot. But this is a journey without a destination — utopianism without an actual utopia. Identity is an engine that runs on rage and repudiation. Deprived of a satanic enemy to rail against, it stalls. If Donald Trump retired tomorrow to a Trappist monastery, the zealots of identity would drag him back out. If all white males and other oppressors vanished in a great culling at the end of days, the whole point of “identity” would explode in a puff of smoke. If grievance groups existed only to express their own separateness, social life would fall apart in a rush.

In the dark heart of its repudiation, identity repudiates itself, denying, by a parasitical necessity, the possibility of progress. It can thrive only so long as injustice advances. The impulse, then, is to remain implacable, irreconcilable, striking blows against anything that stands, in an ecstatic frenzy of nihilism that, when properly understood, is a form of suicide.

Reality, of course, is a tad more prosaic. I recently encountered a young man at the supermarket. He was a mass of Zoomer hair and tattoos, and when he turned, in bold white letters on the back of his black hoodie, I read a defiant message: “RISE UP. RESIST. REVOLT. REBEL.” Below that, in more modest script, a warning: “To not speak up is death.”

I considered the meaning of this apparition. Rise up, resist, revolt, rebel — against what? Everyone and everything, I suppose. Speak up — on behalf of what? That was the wrong question. You speak up to resist, revolt, strike blows. You stand forever against. Yet there he was, this would-be destroyer of worlds, at the fruit counter, contemplating the cantaloupes. Apparently, even nihilists have appetites.

***

In The Will to BelieveWilliam James observed that certain explanations about the nature of things are “live options” while others are “dead options”. James was a psychologist. He understood that history and culture condition the mind, driving many theoretically possible propositions out of consideration. Does the universe rest on the back of a turtle? That was once a live option, but no longer. Is there no God, only atoms? That statement will get you shot in Kabul but elicit yawns in Harvard Square.

There has been, in the 21st century, a great slaughter of live options. Truth and knowledge are largely mediated: we receive them from some trusted authority. But trust in the mediators has utterly collapsed and a fatal crisis of authority has spread to every subject. We now dwell in the Tower of Babel. Hope and faith, under such conditions, must dissolve into a shrieking, incomprehensible noise. The mindless contradictions of the cult of identity, and the dismal poverty of our ideological imagination, follow directly from these disasters. Religion, patriotism, love of place and family — these are dead or dying options. Conservatism and liberalism, Right and Left, are tribal stickers detached from any serious content.

The path to Communist revolution, wrote Marx in the Manifesto, “involved the most radical rupture with traditional ideas”. I was born into a world alive with hope and faith, fertilised by a running quarrel between ideas old and new. Utopia was not only possible; for many, it was inevitable. Revolution, these people thought, would purify the human race. Radical ideology was wholly oriented to that transcendent moment. In democracies, socialists and liberals believed we could get to the same place by peaceable stages. Artists and poets everywhere longed for the “bliss in that dawn” Wordsworth had experienced in Paris.

Then came the night. In December 1991, the Soviet Union went out of business. Rather abruptly, revolution became a dead option. The cry for it fell terminally quiet because faith was lost in its magical powers of transformation. Insofar as ideology had usurped the place of religion, the death of revolution was like the death of God. For radical thinkers, bereft and bewildered, deprived of direction, it felt like murder. A seething anger replaced coherent projects of political change. Pierre Rosanvallon describes the consequences of the end of “the idea of revolution”: “To be radical is to point a finger of blame every day; it is to twist a knife in each of society’s wounds. It is not to aim a cannon at the citadel of power in the preparation for a final assault.” Blaming and knife-twisting, I note, accurately describe the central rituals of the cult of identity, a post-utopian conduit for rage rather than change.

A dead zone like the present moment might be conceived of as a great silence, a darkness, an emptiness that sucks the life out of new ideas. We emerge from nowhere and have no idea which way to turn — no idea whether the world is round or flat, whether it’s run by God or atoms, what words like “justice”, “integrity”, or “happiness” mean in practice. Every option at hand is either dead or in the process of dying. To attempt a coherent explanation of such a graveyard of dreams would be an exercise in despair. Anger at least has a pulse, and if intense enough feels like a facsimile of the spiritual life.

But all this, I think, amounts to a half-truth. The graveyard isn’t quite still. Dead options and failed ideologies twitch, moan and clutch at us zombie-like, stopping us in our tracks. We haven’t broken free from the past: just the opposite, we are overwhelmed by memory, so that our best thoughts have been thought before, and thought more brilliantly, and tested and exposed in their inadequacies. We seem to lie at the bottom of a century-deep well crushed by the weight and inertia of dead time, where we can accuse one another of being Nazis or fascists or communists, revolution lingers with its impossible promises, Ronald Reagan smiles over America, Jim Crow persecutes forever, and the Beatles perpetually top the charts. We aren’t empty but overfull. The Tower of Babel isn’t a silence but an unbearable noise.

The reflex to smash blindly at society, to obliterate the present and abolish the past, must be understood on these terms. Barbarism, with its true silence and true darkness, has acquired the aspect of utopia.

***

The last surge of ideological vitality in this country took place in the Sixties. That decade witnessed the rise of modern conservatism, destined to swell into a dominant political force in the Reagan years, and of the New Left that announced its arrival in the Port Huron Statement and, after many strange mutations, has become a sort of totemic ancestor to identity. The two movements were each other’s nightmare monster, yet in hindsight it’s remarkable how many goals and assumptions they shared. Both embraced history as an ally, not an enemy, for example. Both partook of that sense of infinite possibilities associated with the American frontier. In politics, both exhibited a Jeffersonian antipathy to state power and glorified a robust, almost anarchistic, individualism.

Hippies and Goldwaterites had more in common than they knew, starting with the conviction that they were making the world over. A newborn ideology is a redrawing of the map — a radical shift in perspective. Doors suddenly swing open that have stood locked for an age. Everything is alive again, even the past, which isn’t repudiated so much as recruited and synchronised to the concerns of the present and future. No part of this need be destructive or nihilistic. It’s just a moving forward and a leaving behind.

Energy from these movements propelled American politics for many years, but inevitably the environment changed and momentum ran out. We are now stuck in the muck. We require explanations and aspirations that address the peculiar character of the digital age, and our inability to produce these is telling. Whatever their intrinsic worth, the ideologies of the Sixties were healthy attempts to change the world: they truly aimed at justice. Our sickness is that we speak of justice but we really crave meaning. We desperately wish to fill the spiritual void left by the decline of religion, community, and family, and when we engage in pseudo-ideological dabbling we are pleading on our own behalf, not that of society or the oppressed — we are praying to a silent heaven that our sickness might be healed. But that is not the province of ideology or politics.

Failure triggers blind rage and the barbaric urge to smash at the tokens of civilisation. This is our predicament, our closed loop. We begin the search for justice by gazing into the mirror of Narcissus but end it as the monster at the centre of the labyrinth.

We might ask how such a deformed and unsatisfying creed as the cult of identity has come to achieve the status of an established church. The answer isn’t hard to tease out. Identity justifies control by those who have lost authority. The institutional elites are held in contempt by the public. Their advice is rejected and their commandments ignored.

By wielding that fuzzy and mutable ideal, equity, the elites aim to regain control of policy and prosecutorial decisions — but also of the education of children, the research of scientists and scholars, the persons and opinions that will be tolerated online, the treatment of the poor and homeless, and ultimately, the words in the mouths and thoughts inside the heads of the common herd. As a bonus, they get to surf a wave of puritanical smugness. They can call dissenters “deplorables” and treat their dissent as a form of racism or homophobia. What could be better?

It may appear far-fetched to portray elite embrace of identity as a 2020s take on Invasion of the Body Snatchers — and in a way, it is. The digital realm is virtually infinite; that’s a lot of territory to conquer and hold down. My point, however, is that the ragged engine of identity has an open road ahead and will continue its suicidal rampage through American life until opposed by a coherent set of ideas.


Martin Gurri is a former CIA analyst and the author of ‘The Revolt of the Public‘.

mgurri

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polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago

“Conservatism and liberalism, Right and Left, are tribal stickers detached from any serious content.”
I came to that conclusion, gradually, over the last few years. I am surprised at the number of people who still see content where there is none.
I am old enough to be immune from the inner effects of this nihilism (because that is what it is), but I pity those too young to have any defences.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

There has been a real inversion as well. Trump supporters don’t resemble traditional republicans – they look like early 90’s left wingers. They don’t trust the media (a la Chomsky), are anti-war, are against censorship, don’t want free trade, don’t trust the CIA or FBI, and generally don’t trust any government organization

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Superficial hogwash.

MAGA supports the Judaeo-Christian beliefs of hard work, meritocracy, thrift, honesty, morality, Justice, Prosperity, rule of law, God, Patriotism, The Flag and Pledge of Allegiance, the Family, Womanhood, Manhood, Children, and moral decency.

It is Enlightenment Liberal.

It is For Decency, and against degeneracy. This is anathma to the Postmodernist Lefty/Liberal, and thus all the modern Left.

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

Great comment but I differ on the enlightenment part. It can be argued that the enlightenment was the birth of secularism.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

I do not think you ad Mr J are that far apart

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

I question your characterization of MAGA, given their slavish devotion to Donald Trump: a sleazy, self-serving, faithless scion of a wealthy family with no concern for anyone but himself. Trump is a stranger to hard work, thrift, honesty, morality, the rule of law, patriotism, etc. etc.
Other than that, I couldn’t really understand what you were attempting to say.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

Really? does Trump represent those beliefs? The prostitutes, lies, insurrection. Do you remember grab them by the pushy? Or is that a new Christian value?

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

Great comment but I differ on the enlightenment part. It can be argued that the enlightenment was the birth of secularism.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

I do not think you ad Mr J are that far apart

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

I question your characterization of MAGA, given their slavish devotion to Donald Trump: a sleazy, self-serving, faithless scion of a wealthy family with no concern for anyone but himself. Trump is a stranger to hard work, thrift, honesty, morality, the rule of law, patriotism, etc. etc.
Other than that, I couldn’t really understand what you were attempting to say.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

Really? does Trump represent those beliefs? The prostitutes, lies, insurrection. Do you remember grab them by the pushy? Or is that a new Christian value?

Paul Curtin
Paul Curtin
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Author is excellent. Pearl of an essay, though depressing as hell.
A world of uncertainty and no empirical truths or foundations.
Better stand for something or you’ll fall for anything….
At this rate are we going to end up in a Mad Max dystopia full of toxic social justice warriors. I have a leather jacket, a 650 motorbike and 12 years experience in the military so I’ll be fine.
Valid comments on the Trump supporters, Peter. The social justice warriors are the establishment and the Trump supporters and conservative types the new revolutionaries of 1968. You couldn’t make this stuff up.

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Curtin
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Curtin

How is the essay “a pearl”?! More of a convoluted swirl.
“Conservatives” who want to burn at all down and regard Trump as a decent man, force for net good, or just their favorite antihero in some real-life life-or-death dystopian spectacle–hard to make up, for sure.
Where’s the conserving in that? How do you make something great (again) by condemning it and burning it down? At least you’re unfazed by the prospect of a post-apocalyptic landscape, equipped with that motorcycle and jacket.

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You are missing the point, which is that there is no point to be missed. We are now galloping headlong into utter nothingness. Nay, we have arrived there. It is the promise of this very nothingness that drove Ivan Fyodorovich and Fredrick Nietzsche mad. “When we breathe we hope,” Pres. Obama said. “The arch of History bends toward justice.” He said that too. He was howling into the void. Pres. Trump is doing exactly not that.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

I’ve heard that noise many times and even marched to it at earlier times in my life.
The quote is from MLK: “the arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice”. Still unproven, but significantly different than your framing.
We should stop walking some of the hyper-intellectual highways of knowingness that lead to nothingness, to an unforced spiritual void. More Prince Myshkin (also a Dostoevsky character–a “holy fool”–as you may know) and Gautama Siddhartha–less Sartre and Nietzsche.
I find it interesting that you admit you believe in nothing, or even believe only in nothingness, and that Trump is your man. That’s the sad state of it for many of his supporters.

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Please, that’s not it at all. What is actually happening, and what I would have happen, are two very different things. The idea of progress, the idea that that history is a salvific force, has proved itself ruinous. Just because Pres. Trump jumped off the progress train, does not mean he found himself on the right train.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

Fair enough. I don’t believe in some Hegelian historical teleology. I just don’t want more nihilism charging through our society, whether the trains are coming from the left, right, or center.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The tree of knowledge needs to be pruned and watered to bear fruit.
I woul suggest that the massive increase in government expenditure on welfare, education police and defence post WW2 needs careful and hard pruning. If one looks at standards across government employees they are far too low, quantity replaces quality.Look at fitness and academic levels. levels required to pass finals tests for much of the Armed Forces and The Police, they are far too low. Pre WW1 people needed to pass exams in Latin and Greek to enter Harvard and Yale.
People who should leave school at sixteen years of age and enter employment go onto degrees and even post graduate courses.
The result is vast numbers of people with an inferiority complex and sense of inadequacy who seek ideological justifications for their under achievement in life. This occurs on the Left and Rigth of the political spectrum . As someone said ” The desire to be spoon fed, to have problems solved by others, to be given short snappy answers has sunk deep inot our culture”
Solzhenitsyn understood it is the spiritual decay which is the problem. The last to state this were J Kennedy and Dr M L King. The middle and wealthy classes have mostly have given up on the ideas of duty, responsibility and the need to temper the body, mind and spirit in order to overcome adversity.
The result is Biden and Trump.
3 Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn Quotes On Success In Life – OverallMotivation
In the 19th century statesmen such as Gladstone and Peel had double Firsts in Greats and Maths.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The tree of knowledge needs to be pruned and watered to bear fruit.
I woul suggest that the massive increase in government expenditure on welfare, education police and defence post WW2 needs careful and hard pruning. If one looks at standards across government employees they are far too low, quantity replaces quality.Look at fitness and academic levels. levels required to pass finals tests for much of the Armed Forces and The Police, they are far too low. Pre WW1 people needed to pass exams in Latin and Greek to enter Harvard and Yale.
People who should leave school at sixteen years of age and enter employment go onto degrees and even post graduate courses.
The result is vast numbers of people with an inferiority complex and sense of inadequacy who seek ideological justifications for their under achievement in life. This occurs on the Left and Rigth of the political spectrum . As someone said ” The desire to be spoon fed, to have problems solved by others, to be given short snappy answers has sunk deep inot our culture”
Solzhenitsyn understood it is the spiritual decay which is the problem. The last to state this were J Kennedy and Dr M L King. The middle and wealthy classes have mostly have given up on the ideas of duty, responsibility and the need to temper the body, mind and spirit in order to overcome adversity.
The result is Biden and Trump.
3 Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn Quotes On Success In Life – OverallMotivation
In the 19th century statesmen such as Gladstone and Peel had double Firsts in Greats and Maths.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

Fair enough. I don’t believe in some Hegelian historical teleology. I just don’t want more nihilism charging through our society, whether the trains are coming from the left, right, or center.

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Please, that’s not it at all. What is actually happening, and what I would have happen, are two very different things. The idea of progress, the idea that that history is a salvific force, has proved itself ruinous. Just because Pres. Trump jumped off the progress train, does not mean he found himself on the right train.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

I’ve heard that noise many times and even marched to it at earlier times in my life.
The quote is from MLK: “the arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice”. Still unproven, but significantly different than your framing.
We should stop walking some of the hyper-intellectual highways of knowingness that lead to nothingness, to an unforced spiritual void. More Prince Myshkin (also a Dostoevsky character–a “holy fool”–as you may know) and Gautama Siddhartha–less Sartre and Nietzsche.
I find it interesting that you admit you believe in nothing, or even believe only in nothingness, and that Trump is your man. That’s the sad state of it for many of his supporters.

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You don’t know anything about trump supporters that much is clear.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Kat L

I make an effort to understand people, but that effort has to be mutual for anything of value to happen. For you–as I perceive it–those who disagree with you are not just wrong but simply evil and have nothing, can have nothing, to teach you except how right you already are. Is that fair?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

And I don’t think Trump (or Biden, or whoever) supporters are all in one camp that can be fairly labelled and dismissed.

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

That is a nonsense argument and I won’t bother with it. Yes the right wants to burn it all down but only because the left has twisted it into a woke monstrosity. We don’t make any claims about Trumps decency but we do appreciate that he’s torn the mask off those who lead the culture. I don’t want him to run again but I understand why others do. De Santis would run the government better and wisely. Unfortunately emotions are running roughshod over reason.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Kat L

“My side good, their side bad”. Two sides of a corroded coin. I say: Please melt the coin and stop demonizing so many of your fellow humans. As if the far right is motivated primarily by reason! Haha!
I’m not free of intellectual passion and even emotional reactiveness, but I ain’t dumb and I know that both far wings of the political spectrum are bad for America and the world. There’s a fair argument about which is worse, but no hostile, violence-ready, self-important extreme is a net good.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Which is worse: sharing classified information about our nuclear capabilities with anyone who needs to take a piss at Mar-a-Lago, or demanding that you be called “they/them”? While both right and left have become dominated by idiot extemists, the ones on the right are the ones actively threatening insurrection and coups. Not comparable to cross-dressing.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Nona Yubiz

I’m certainly closer on average to agreement with the views I’ve seen you express you than those of Kat L. But I’d say I’m closer to the center than to either of you and the way you’ve framed your dichotomy also smacks of a bubble-dweller’s imbalance to me.
What if I said that some on the left are (rather successfully) seeking to indoctrinate teenage college students and that the far-far-left has a religion of no atonement (“Wokeism”) in which police are demonized and rioting is just an afterthought within peaceful protests during Covid, whereas the populist far right is just a band of God-loving patriots trying to save America?
Because to me, that is similar in unfairness to suggesting the extremes of the trans movement, with its cancellation attempts and advocacy for child-transitioning/surgery amounts to nothing more than “cross-dressing” or drag queen story hour at the library.
Yes, there is some silly overreaction on the right, but even some trans people are saying things are too extreme and unyielding in the militant trans-rights movement.
Against any perceived political extreme, I like to advocate moderation/consensus. One problem: I find myself getting passionate and emotional pretty often–left, right, and center!
I’m more worried about right wing extremism than left wing extremism right now–but I think both have huge disastrous potential that renders my personal preference or perception pretty unimportant. I plead for a middle path instead of ideological warmongering that threatens to become an actual bloodbath.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Nona Yubiz

I’m certainly closer on average to agreement with the views I’ve seen you express you than those of Kat L. But I’d say I’m closer to the center than to either of you and the way you’ve framed your dichotomy also smacks of a bubble-dweller’s imbalance to me.
What if I said that some on the left are (rather successfully) seeking to indoctrinate teenage college students and that the far-far-left has a religion of no atonement (“Wokeism”) in which police are demonized and rioting is just an afterthought within peaceful protests during Covid, whereas the populist far right is just a band of God-loving patriots trying to save America?
Because to me, that is similar in unfairness to suggesting the extremes of the trans movement, with its cancellation attempts and advocacy for child-transitioning/surgery amounts to nothing more than “cross-dressing” or drag queen story hour at the library.
Yes, there is some silly overreaction on the right, but even some trans people are saying things are too extreme and unyielding in the militant trans-rights movement.
Against any perceived political extreme, I like to advocate moderation/consensus. One problem: I find myself getting passionate and emotional pretty often–left, right, and center!
I’m more worried about right wing extremism than left wing extremism right now–but I think both have huge disastrous potential that renders my personal preference or perception pretty unimportant. I plead for a middle path instead of ideological warmongering that threatens to become an actual bloodbath.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Which is worse: sharing classified information about our nuclear capabilities with anyone who needs to take a piss at Mar-a-Lago, or demanding that you be called “they/them”? While both right and left have become dominated by idiot extemists, the ones on the right are the ones actively threatening insurrection and coups. Not comparable to cross-dressing.

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
10 months ago
Reply to  Kat L

You’ve threaded the needle just right.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

I didn’t know you could thread a needle with a hatchet.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

I didn’t know you could thread a needle with a hatchet.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Kat L

“My side good, their side bad”. Two sides of a corroded coin. I say: Please melt the coin and stop demonizing so many of your fellow humans. As if the far right is motivated primarily by reason! Haha!
I’m not free of intellectual passion and even emotional reactiveness, but I ain’t dumb and I know that both far wings of the political spectrum are bad for America and the world. There’s a fair argument about which is worse, but no hostile, violence-ready, self-important extreme is a net good.

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
10 months ago
Reply to  Kat L

You’ve threaded the needle just right.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

And I don’t think Trump (or Biden, or whoever) supporters are all in one camp that can be fairly labelled and dismissed.

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

That is a nonsense argument and I won’t bother with it. Yes the right wants to burn it all down but only because the left has twisted it into a woke monstrosity. We don’t make any claims about Trumps decency but we do appreciate that he’s torn the mask off those who lead the culture. I don’t want him to run again but I understand why others do. De Santis would run the government better and wisely. Unfortunately emotions are running roughshod over reason.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Kat L

I make an effort to understand people, but that effort has to be mutual for anything of value to happen. For you–as I perceive it–those who disagree with you are not just wrong but simply evil and have nothing, can have nothing, to teach you except how right you already are. Is that fair?

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You are missing the point, which is that there is no point to be missed. We are now galloping headlong into utter nothingness. Nay, we have arrived there. It is the promise of this very nothingness that drove Ivan Fyodorovich and Fredrick Nietzsche mad. “When we breathe we hope,” Pres. Obama said. “The arch of History bends toward justice.” He said that too. He was howling into the void. Pres. Trump is doing exactly not that.

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You don’t know anything about trump supporters that much is clear.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Curtin

How is the essay “a pearl”?! More of a convoluted swirl.
“Conservatives” who want to burn at all down and regard Trump as a decent man, force for net good, or just their favorite antihero in some real-life life-or-death dystopian spectacle–hard to make up, for sure.
Where’s the conserving in that? How do you make something great (again) by condemning it and burning it down? At least you’re unfazed by the prospect of a post-apocalyptic landscape, equipped with that motorcycle and jacket.

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

It’s true. To be a Trump supporter, is to be ‘revolutionary’. Rather exhilarating that.

Last edited 10 months ago by Cathy Carron
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

Yep, there was a similar guy in Germany a while back (except for the orange bit); ‘name of Adolf something or other.. ‘not sure if it worked out all that well though….

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

To compare Trump to AH is ridiculous and childish.
Washington is unbelievably corrupted.
Big corporations own the media.
Jake Tapper is in the pay of Pfizer, Rachel Maddow, the alien looking freak, is in the pay of the MIC. The Bidens are taking millions from Ukraine and China.
This is the reason the establishment seek to stop Trump.
Get real.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

No, we seek to stop Trump because he’s a traitor and an insurrectionist. Plus he’s just not a very smart one. If you’re going to have a nihilistic hero, at least pick a smart one. He shared classified information about serious national issues with anyone curious enough to open one of the boxes scattered about his vast estate in Florida. He keeps yapping publicly about his transgressions, much to the chagrin of his lawyers. Too stupid to keep his big mouth shut. Not a hero of our times, unless you admire such gross degeneracy.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

No, we seek to stop Trump because he’s a traitor and an insurrectionist. Plus he’s just not a very smart one. If you’re going to have a nihilistic hero, at least pick a smart one. He shared classified information about serious national issues with anyone curious enough to open one of the boxes scattered about his vast estate in Florida. He keeps yapping publicly about his transgressions, much to the chagrin of his lawyers. Too stupid to keep his big mouth shut. Not a hero of our times, unless you admire such gross degeneracy.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Apparently dear Adolph’s main election plank was to stop those millions of Jews trying to illegally enter Germany. Just like the orange man.

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

To compare Trump to AH is ridiculous and childish.
Washington is unbelievably corrupted.
Big corporations own the media.
Jake Tapper is in the pay of Pfizer, Rachel Maddow, the alien looking freak, is in the pay of the MIC. The Bidens are taking millions from Ukraine and China.
This is the reason the establishment seek to stop Trump.
Get real.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Apparently dear Adolph’s main election plank was to stop those millions of Jews trying to illegally enter Germany. Just like the orange man.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

To be a Trump supporter is to be a mindless nihilist. Go for it.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

Yep, there was a similar guy in Germany a while back (except for the orange bit); ‘name of Adolf something or other.. ‘not sure if it worked out all that well though….

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

To be a Trump supporter is to be a mindless nihilist. Go for it.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

In that case we’d better hope Trump wins! But seriously America, Can you not do a little better than than that? 350 million of you and that’s your best hope?

Ron Wigley
Ron Wigley
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I hope so too or da do Ron, Ron more likely the best hope.

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Open your eyes.
Look who is in power now.
A senile old kiddie sniffer
who has lied to the American people for 50 years and has no problem selling off America to China and the big corporations.
And you think that’s OK ?
Seriously ?

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Arthur G
Arthur G
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

And Trump will do exactly nothing to fight the woke establishment, just like he did nothing in his first term. He completely caved to their whims on COVID.

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

He will, you will see.
The woke agenda is already collapsing anyway.
Look at Bud Light, Target etc.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Trump is seriously off his rocker. He knows the Dems and the security state are targeting him, yet it doesn’t deter him from acting reckless and stupid. Say what you want about the classified files, if he just acted like a normal human being and exercised an ounce of good judgement, he would have a much stronger defence.

About the best thing you can say about Trump is he’s not Biden or a Dem. That’s a pretty low bar. The GOP would be better off with any random person off the street.

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

You assume that they are telling you the truth and that this isn’t at all political.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
10 months ago
Reply to  Kat L

Not at all. It’s very political. Don’t help them dig the hole.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
10 months ago
Reply to  Kat L

Not at all. It’s very political. Don’t help them dig the hole.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

He’s a fool and a traitor and deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison.

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

You assume that they are telling you the truth and that this isn’t at all political.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

He’s a fool and a traitor and deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison.

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

He will, you will see.
The woke agenda is already collapsing anyway.
Look at Bud Light, Target etc.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Trump is seriously off his rocker. He knows the Dems and the security state are targeting him, yet it doesn’t deter him from acting reckless and stupid. Say what you want about the classified files, if he just acted like a normal human being and exercised an ounce of good judgement, he would have a much stronger defence.

About the best thing you can say about Trump is he’s not Biden or a Dem. That’s a pretty low bar. The GOP would be better off with any random person off the street.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

much better to have a bone headed cretin with the vocabulary of a ten year old, regarded by the rest of the world as an embarrasing quasi comedian?… It absolutely staggers me that Trump is actually taken seriously by anyone with a shoe size plus IQ… and Biden is an equal joke?

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago

Ridiculous.
Trump is a smart man and he tells the truth. That is why the swamp creatures are terrified of him.
The Democrats will put dementia Joe up for president because he can easily be controlled.
They have an excellent candidate in Kennedy
but they won’t put him up because, like Trump, he is anti-corruption and anti-war.
The Democrats are racists and War-Mongers.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Trump is a genius in some ways, especially when it comes to marketing, but he’s an imbecile in so many other ways.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Genius is putting it strongly. Leave it at he’s got a gut instinct for the lowest common denominator.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Genius is putting it strongly. Leave it at he’s got a gut instinct for the lowest common denominator.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Trump is a genius in some ways, especially when it comes to marketing, but he’s an imbecile in so many other ways.

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago

Yes his speaking skills are not that of a politician however it’s the policies and his lack of not having to cowtow to donors that appeals. I would prefer De Santis myself but will vote trump if need be.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago

Biden is NOT an equal joke. He can speak in coherent sentences, he’s accomplished a lot of work in his time in office. He may be old, he may be a stutterer (like King George VI), but he’s not stupid and he’s not senile. He’s a skilled politician. Trump is… chaos in a bloated body with bad hair.

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago

Ridiculous.
Trump is a smart man and he tells the truth. That is why the swamp creatures are terrified of him.
The Democrats will put dementia Joe up for president because he can easily be controlled.
They have an excellent candidate in Kennedy
but they won’t put him up because, like Trump, he is anti-corruption and anti-war.
The Democrats are racists and War-Mongers.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago

Yes his speaking skills are not that of a politician however it’s the policies and his lack of not having to cowtow to donors that appeals. I would prefer De Santis myself but will vote trump if need be.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago

Biden is NOT an equal joke. He can speak in coherent sentences, he’s accomplished a lot of work in his time in office. He may be old, he may be a stutterer (like King George VI), but he’s not stupid and he’s not senile. He’s a skilled politician. Trump is… chaos in a bloated body with bad hair.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

“Kiddie sniffer”? LOL. You sound like someone who does a lot of psychological projecting.

Arthur G
Arthur G
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

And Trump will do exactly nothing to fight the woke establishment, just like he did nothing in his first term. He completely caved to their whims on COVID.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

much better to have a bone headed cretin with the vocabulary of a ten year old, regarded by the rest of the world as an embarrasing quasi comedian?… It absolutely staggers me that Trump is actually taken seriously by anyone with a shoe size plus IQ… and Biden is an equal joke?

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

“Kiddie sniffer”? LOL. You sound like someone who does a lot of psychological projecting.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The GOP actually has a couple great candidates, Vivek Ramaswamy and Tim Scott, but they won’t even get a sniff.

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Both of those are good men but it will have to be Trump.

D Walsh
D Walsh
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I’d say Tim Scott has a very good chance, Trump won’t win the primary, it will probably be a brokered convention, when that happens if you backed Scott at long odds, you will win big

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Trump is way ahead of De Santis and Scott is trailing far behind.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Yes, and at this point in 2019 it looked it was going to be Mayor Pete or Sanders for the Dems. Trump had a couple of months tag-teaming with the liberal media on DeSantis to get a big lead- now that Ron has announced he is quite able to fight back.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
10 months ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Yes, and at this point in 2019 it looked it was going to be Mayor Pete or Sanders for the Dems. Trump had a couple of months tag-teaming with the liberal media on DeSantis to get a big lead- now that Ron has announced he is quite able to fight back.

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

A brokered convention. I’ve heard that nearly every election cycle in my lifetime. It won’t happen. It requires 3 serious candidates who are regional elites and thus have geographically specific bases.

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Trump is way ahead of De Santis and Scott is trailing far behind.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
10 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

A brokered convention. I’ve heard that nearly every election cycle in my lifetime. It won’t happen. It requires 3 serious candidates who are regional elites and thus have geographically specific bases.

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Both of those are good men but it will have to be Trump.

D Walsh
D Walsh
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I’d say Tim Scott has a very good chance, Trump won’t win the primary, it will probably be a brokered convention, when that happens if you backed Scott at long odds, you will win big

Ron Wigley
Ron Wigley
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I hope so too or da do Ron, Ron more likely the best hope.

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Open your eyes.
Look who is in power now.
A senile old kiddie sniffer
who has lied to the American people for 50 years and has no problem selling off America to China and the big corporations.
And you think that’s OK ?
Seriously ?

Last edited 10 months ago by Stoater D
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The GOP actually has a couple great candidates, Vivek Ramaswamy and Tim Scott, but they won’t even get a sniff.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Stupid! Maga doesn’t like nothing like the left ever. Too white and too crazy.

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Superficial hogwash.

MAGA supports the Judaeo-Christian beliefs of hard work, meritocracy, thrift, honesty, morality, Justice, Prosperity, rule of law, God, Patriotism, The Flag and Pledge of Allegiance, the Family, Womanhood, Manhood, Children, and moral decency.

It is Enlightenment Liberal.

It is For Decency, and against degeneracy. This is anathma to the Postmodernist Lefty/Liberal, and thus all the modern Left.

Paul Curtin
Paul Curtin
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Author is excellent. Pearl of an essay, though depressing as hell.
A world of uncertainty and no empirical truths or foundations.
Better stand for something or you’ll fall for anything….
At this rate are we going to end up in a Mad Max dystopia full of toxic social justice warriors. I have a leather jacket, a 650 motorbike and 12 years experience in the military so I’ll be fine.
Valid comments on the Trump supporters, Peter. The social justice warriors are the establishment and the Trump supporters and conservative types the new revolutionaries of 1968. You couldn’t make this stuff up.

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Curtin
Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

It’s true. To be a Trump supporter, is to be ‘revolutionary’. Rather exhilarating that.

Last edited 10 months ago by Cathy Carron
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

In that case we’d better hope Trump wins! But seriously America, Can you not do a little better than than that? 350 million of you and that’s your best hope?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Stupid! Maga doesn’t like nothing like the left ever. Too white and too crazy.

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

The nihilistic mind virus/mania of identity has been set free in the UK too. Perhaps it is not yet as potent as the US. But the ideology lives and breathes in the same swamps – academe, the media/BBC and throughout the public sector and government. The explanation is very simple. The Equality Acts of 2010 and 2015 were the original Wuhan lab leak. They established the idea that blacks, women, Muslims gays – The Nine groups – needed to be ‘protected’ in law. This granted them privileged or special status and unwittingly cast white males as the aggressors the 9 needed protecting from. So extreme identitarian credo was pumped out into the bloodstream of the public sector. This is why the trans mania took off in schools. It is a State credo enshrined in a terrible law which shares the assumptions of structural inequality as America extreme Critical Race Theory. Ten years on and the BBC has mutated its mission to honour Diversity into full on 24/7 evangelical anti white/pro Nine grievance and victimhood propaganda. It besmirches all ‘white history’ and snarls permanent hostility to the structures of white patriarchy. Its Critical Race Theory has rendered the BBC – like our law – a real danger to communal harmony. The BBC will do anything to ‘protect’ its vision of multiculturalism. It covered up the story of the mass rape in the North for over a decade – it had local journalists in every town who said and did nothing. It habitually drenches London Manchester and now poor Nottingham with messages of communal love after a terror attack. But when Grenfell happened, because whiteys were the ‘killers’, it crudely and actively stoked rage on behalf of the victims. Identitarianism is a poison as this article well describes. Yet it is the one and only credo on the Left that they all believe in, hence the Liar Starmer bends his knee to BLM rioters and does not know who has vaginas. All the extraordinary organic progress the British people together have made in making multicultural UK the most open tolerant society in Europe is set to be torched and debased and trashed by our deranged elite, state media and law. The virus is running free and wild. Look at America and weep.

Phil Jones
Phil Jones
10 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Real good comment without veering of into UK & US party politics. What really surprises me is how few people of the general population & society actually believe in this crap. But like a herd of sheep getting led down the garden path & bleating about it, as opposed to just ignoring it. In time this situation will rectify itself, the manipulative groups will eat themselves up. In the meantime exciting laws are now being used. As an aside, what will certainly help in the meantime is those people who rely on the good nature of others to protect them end up being splattered on the road, left hanging over motorways or getting a good kicking from the angry public

Phil Jones
Phil Jones
10 months ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Real good comment without veering of into UK & US party politics. What really surprises me is how few people of the general population & society actually believe in this crap. But like a herd of sheep getting led down the garden path & bleating about it, as opposed to just ignoring it. In time this situation will rectify itself, the manipulative groups will eat themselves up. In the meantime exciting laws are now being used. As an aside, what will certainly help in the meantime is those people who rely on the good nature of others to protect them end up being splattered on the road, left hanging over motorways or getting a good kicking from the angry public

Douglas Proudfoot
Douglas Proudfoot
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Identity is a tool of the left. It separates the quality of governance from the voter’s decision on who to vote for. No matter how bad the goverment is, your identity never changes. So, if your identity says you vote for Democrats, then you vote for Democrats, regardless of how bad a job they do. If there’s high crime, rotten schools, pot holed streets and bankrupt corrupt government, you still vote for the same people because your identity tells you to.

Socialism is notorious for failing everywhere it’s tried. However, identity voting can keep it going despite continuing failure. See for example, Detroit or Chicago.

In reaction to identity voting on the left, the people disadvantaged by the racisim of DEI and Critical Racist Theory band together in self defense. This includes groups like white males and Asians which in times past had nothing in common. That may give the appearance of identity voting on the right, but the right is much more about individual rights and rugged individualism in general. The fact that such people tend to have democraphic factors in common is more of an accident than by design.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Since I was a teen I’ve been a far left Democrat (before they went insane), but as I’ve grown older, I’ve peeled off my tribal sticker. I now just call myself a liberal. This move closer to the moderate center was because my disenchantment with the far left and the Democratic Party. And with age I’m reading more Conservative writers (not the Trumpists or the far right) to actually understand what they stand for. I’ll never be a conservative, but I actually agree with them about certain issues ( stopping the medical transitioning of children). Funny how gray the world is now.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

There has been a real inversion as well. Trump supporters don’t resemble traditional republicans – they look like early 90’s left wingers. They don’t trust the media (a la Chomsky), are anti-war, are against censorship, don’t want free trade, don’t trust the CIA or FBI, and generally don’t trust any government organization

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

The nihilistic mind virus/mania of identity has been set free in the UK too. Perhaps it is not yet as potent as the US. But the ideology lives and breathes in the same swamps – academe, the media/BBC and throughout the public sector and government. The explanation is very simple. The Equality Acts of 2010 and 2015 were the original Wuhan lab leak. They established the idea that blacks, women, Muslims gays – The Nine groups – needed to be ‘protected’ in law. This granted them privileged or special status and unwittingly cast white males as the aggressors the 9 needed protecting from. So extreme identitarian credo was pumped out into the bloodstream of the public sector. This is why the trans mania took off in schools. It is a State credo enshrined in a terrible law which shares the assumptions of structural inequality as America extreme Critical Race Theory. Ten years on and the BBC has mutated its mission to honour Diversity into full on 24/7 evangelical anti white/pro Nine grievance and victimhood propaganda. It besmirches all ‘white history’ and snarls permanent hostility to the structures of white patriarchy. Its Critical Race Theory has rendered the BBC – like our law – a real danger to communal harmony. The BBC will do anything to ‘protect’ its vision of multiculturalism. It covered up the story of the mass rape in the North for over a decade – it had local journalists in every town who said and did nothing. It habitually drenches London Manchester and now poor Nottingham with messages of communal love after a terror attack. But when Grenfell happened, because whiteys were the ‘killers’, it crudely and actively stoked rage on behalf of the victims. Identitarianism is a poison as this article well describes. Yet it is the one and only credo on the Left that they all believe in, hence the Liar Starmer bends his knee to BLM rioters and does not know who has vaginas. All the extraordinary organic progress the British people together have made in making multicultural UK the most open tolerant society in Europe is set to be torched and debased and trashed by our deranged elite, state media and law. The virus is running free and wild. Look at America and weep.

Douglas Proudfoot
Douglas Proudfoot
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Identity is a tool of the left. It separates the quality of governance from the voter’s decision on who to vote for. No matter how bad the goverment is, your identity never changes. So, if your identity says you vote for Democrats, then you vote for Democrats, regardless of how bad a job they do. If there’s high crime, rotten schools, pot holed streets and bankrupt corrupt government, you still vote for the same people because your identity tells you to.

Socialism is notorious for failing everywhere it’s tried. However, identity voting can keep it going despite continuing failure. See for example, Detroit or Chicago.

In reaction to identity voting on the left, the people disadvantaged by the racisim of DEI and Critical Racist Theory band together in self defense. This includes groups like white males and Asians which in times past had nothing in common. That may give the appearance of identity voting on the right, but the right is much more about individual rights and rugged individualism in general. The fact that such people tend to have democraphic factors in common is more of an accident than by design.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Since I was a teen I’ve been a far left Democrat (before they went insane), but as I’ve grown older, I’ve peeled off my tribal sticker. I now just call myself a liberal. This move closer to the moderate center was because my disenchantment with the far left and the Democratic Party. And with age I’m reading more Conservative writers (not the Trumpists or the far right) to actually understand what they stand for. I’ll never be a conservative, but I actually agree with them about certain issues ( stopping the medical transitioning of children). Funny how gray the world is now.

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago

“Conservatism and liberalism, Right and Left, are tribal stickers detached from any serious content.”
I came to that conclusion, gradually, over the last few years. I am surprised at the number of people who still see content where there is none.
I am old enough to be immune from the inner effects of this nihilism (because that is what it is), but I pity those too young to have any defences.

N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago

The cult of identity can give just about everybody the opportunity they crave to be part of a plucky, unfairly treated, group standing apart from the great mass of society – which will soon (d)evolve into a vast array of such plucky groups each with their own demands for equity.
Equity, of course, is a loser’s charter which holds special appeal for those who would like the system to be rigged so their underachievement carries no cost. If you are embarrassed by your lack of merit then meritocracy must be abolished.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

“would like the system to be rigged so their underachievement carries no cost”
Nail. Head.

And I have seriously lost all respect for those groups which are so fond of “equity” – American urban blacks and college educated women being the two main ones that come to mind. Says a lot about them, really, considering (not that they would ever admit it) modern society is heavily tilted in their favour to begin with.

Last edited 10 months ago by Samir Iker
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

“would like the system to be rigged so their underachievement carries no cost”
Nail. Head.

And I have seriously lost all respect for those groups which are so fond of “equity” – American urban blacks and college educated women being the two main ones that come to mind. Says a lot about them, really, considering (not that they would ever admit it) modern society is heavily tilted in their favour to begin with.

Last edited 10 months ago by Samir Iker
N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago

The cult of identity can give just about everybody the opportunity they crave to be part of a plucky, unfairly treated, group standing apart from the great mass of society – which will soon (d)evolve into a vast array of such plucky groups each with their own demands for equity.
Equity, of course, is a loser’s charter which holds special appeal for those who would like the system to be rigged so their underachievement carries no cost. If you are embarrassed by your lack of merit then meritocracy must be abolished.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
10 months ago

The first paragraph of this essay is absolutely brilliant, a masterpiece of metaphors and active writing that richly illustrates the author’s assessment of the world today.

I think we are all trying to understand the madness that has gripped our political discourse, and the author explains some of the motivations driving identity politics today. I wish he had a more optimistic outlook for the future, but I guess that’s where we’re at right now.

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

At times it feels we’re living the scene in the ‘Game of Thrones’, fighting the iced zombie White Walkers (the woke) who just keep pouring over the Ice Wall. It all feels so overwhelming, but at once and with great violence the White walkers exhaust themselves. One just has to stand strong by believing in the ‘Wisdom of the Ages’ and all that has been learned before – history, religion, family, community, and intellect.

Last edited 10 months ago by Cathy Carron
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

Sadly, those who carry such a message are systematically cancelled or imprisoned or even murdered by those who see the 90% as mere dross, superfluous to their needs.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

Sadly, those who carry such a message are systematically cancelled or imprisoned or even murdered by those who see the 90% as mere dross, superfluous to their needs.

Apo State
Apo State
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Yes, the writing in this piece is a treat; head and shoulders above most essays, and no preachiness. It’s a pretty good summary of the tsunami of spiritual blackness that is washing through our zeitgeist now.

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

At times it feels we’re living the scene in the ‘Game of Thrones’, fighting the iced zombie White Walkers (the woke) who just keep pouring over the Ice Wall. It all feels so overwhelming, but at once and with great violence the White walkers exhaust themselves. One just has to stand strong by believing in the ‘Wisdom of the Ages’ and all that has been learned before – history, religion, family, community, and intellect.

Last edited 10 months ago by Cathy Carron
Apo State
Apo State
10 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Yes, the writing in this piece is a treat; head and shoulders above most essays, and no preachiness. It’s a pretty good summary of the tsunami of spiritual blackness that is washing through our zeitgeist now.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
10 months ago

The first paragraph of this essay is absolutely brilliant, a masterpiece of metaphors and active writing that richly illustrates the author’s assessment of the world today.

I think we are all trying to understand the madness that has gripped our political discourse, and the author explains some of the motivations driving identity politics today. I wish he had a more optimistic outlook for the future, but I guess that’s where we’re at right now.

Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
10 months ago

The most important point is the final sentence: “… the ragged engine of identity has an open road ahead and will continue its suicidal rampage through American life until opposed by a coherent set of ideas.”
I am bored of articles describing or decrying what is going on. Anyone with an open mind and reasonable intelligence grasped the dangers of current trends some time ago. What we ought to be debating instead is what “coherent set of ideas” we should deploy as a persuasive alternative to the radical progressive creed. We need practical suggestions and a positive vision not just expressions of horror or distaste.
Some of these “coherent ideas” can come from long standing Enlightenment values but we also need new ideas especially in response to the impact of social media on debate and globalisation on western economies. Previous politically destabilising technological changes e.g. printing or radio were eventually tamed. No scheme of reforms will work which does not inter alia improve the prospects of Gen Z.
Maybe UnHerd should ask for submissions and publish the five best “coherent set of ideas” on a single day. It might spark something more useful than yet more repetitive Jeremiads.

Last edited 10 months ago by Rupert Carnegie
N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago

OK Rupert Carnegie. Why wait for UnHerd? Just break the cycle of boredom yourself. Set the ball rolling now with your own coherent set of ideas and let’s see how far they go.

Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

This is too large a subject to address effectively in a comments section – and were UnHerd to solicit essay length contributions then I would be happy to provide one – but a few headline points might be: 1/ It is too easy to be defeatist or fatalistic. I am not complacent about the seriousness of the challenge – and, in particular, the way “progressive ideas” have become embedded in teacher training and the overall educational system – but there are encouraging historical parallels. In the 1930s many students and others supported Pacifism or Marxism. In the 1960s their successors embraced a variety of radical political and social ideas (as well as each other). In both cases their parents were horrified but the former cohort became the “greatest generation” and the latter the liberal if self indulgent boomers. Western society has historically progressed through facing challenges and reacting constructively. It is premature to assume we will fail this time.2/ The current reaction is gathering momentum. The “Overton window” has noticeably expanded. That said, my impression is that the main impact in the last eighteen months has been that the over 30s have woken up to what has been going on. It is far less clear if there has been as much movement amongst the under 30s. 3/ I see the central challenge as persuading Gen Z – and especially Gen Z students at the more prestigious universities – to recognise the virtues of open debate with objective truth not conformity as being the trump card. It produces better results.4/ Put another way, the core issue is about means not ends. Many people agree with – or at least accept as legitimate – many of the complaints of Gen Z. The problem is not that the Woke want tolerance for trans, less economic inequality, racial justice, more action on climate change, etc but their reluctance to debate these issues and their attempts to intimidate and delegitimise any dissent even on matters of detail. They are attacking the Enlightenment values which dominated the western approach for two hundred years. In particular, they are seeking to destroy the primacy of free debate as the route to good decisions.5/ This is not just a battle of ideas per se. It feeds off a number of structural factors as well. The impact of identity politics, social media, polarisation, ideological bubbles, etc have been widely discussed. They provide the fertile soil without which the seeds of progressive radicalism would have withered not flourished. Western society needs to adjust its legal, political and technology frameworks.6/ The area which would benefit most from informed debate is the regulation of social media. Quite apart from the psychological impact on teenagers, the status quo is unacceptable e.g. algorithms which deliberately push individuals into ideologically extreme corners of the internet may benefit the owners through increasing enraged “engagement” and thus profitability but the impact on society is pernicious. We need to accept that the public square needs agreed and transparent rules. Big subject.7/ Most people respond more forcefully to stories than abstract concepts. In addition to focussing on individual examples such as the Tavistock, trans success in women’s sports, etc certain grand historical counter narratives need to be developed and pushed e.g. depicting the “Western system” as a set of institutions and values that have rescued billions from poverty and tyranny, can be deployed beneficially anywhere – and could just as easily have arisen in the Middle East or China as in Europe – and have an inherent capacity for endless self improvement, rather than as the system of racist and patriarchal oppression unchanged in essentials since the seventeenth century as described in post colonial studies. 8/ Personally, I believe that the economic predicament of Gen Z is a much more important factor in its radicalisation than is generally accepted. If their individual prospects were less dispiriting then I suspect they would become calmer on a wide range of topics. How to achieve this is another area for debate.9/ Britain would also benefit from a declaration of psychological independence from the United States. There is a clear contrast between the British reactions to McCarthyism – horror – and to the American Social Justice movement – emulation – despite the obvious parallels. We need a renewed confidence to think for ourselves.10/ The overall point is that we need to restate the core values of the Enlightenment but also to develop new ideas as how to apply these given current society and technology e.g. it is insufficient to defend “free speech”; we also need to establish new rules for how certain speech is privileged and other speech is de-emphasised in the public square. Most would agree that the soft censorship during covid was overdone but that so are the algorithms that exacerbate polarisation and extremism.11/ Pushing a positive agenda is important but so is a relentless critique of the theory and practice of the radical progressive movement. We need to excoriate the mindset that sees everything as a power struggle between endlessly redefined privileged and marginalised categories as well as point out the practical results of individual persecutions, ill thought schemes to defund the police and DEI training sessions which turn out to increase unconscious bias.Others would stress different points. A thorough going debate – in the constructive and amiable spirit UnHerd encourages – would undoubtedly lead to richer conclusions than those produced by any one individual. 

Last edited 10 months ago by Rupert Carnegie
N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago

Thanks for that very well thought out reply. 
I’m afraid I cannot share your faith in the efficacy of debate. No matter how amiable the spirit in which debates are conducted the opposing sides will never simply admit defeat and change their ways. The true winner is he who can turn his beliefs into effective action.
Back in the mid-1990s when Labour were still licking their wounds after electoral defeat by John Major’s Tories I remember reading a piece by the late Gerald Kaufman in the London Evening Standard in which he attempted to take a hard and realistic look at Labour’s repeated failures (this was before Tony Blair became their new leader if memory serves). In Kaufman’s view Labour’s failure lay in it’s inability to understand how to build up and wield political power – concentrating instead on ‘the rightness of their cause’ if I can put it that way. At the time Labour ‘grass roots’ were seriously depleted while the Conservatives’ were in good health.
If you think that point is irrelevant just consider what has happened to our institutions. The Woke Left have certainly learned where the control points of power are. An interesting observation made by Martin Gurri:

The path to Communist revolution, wrote Marx in the Manifesto, ‘involved the most radical rupture with traditional ideas’.

That most radical rupture (not merely with ideas but but with beliefs, customs, history, cultural identity and even sexual identity) is taking place daily and is proving very effective in undermining and destabilising Western culture. If every achievement of the culture you were raised in can be denounced as moraly suspect (if not degenerate) what happens to your self-belief? Can you answer your critics with anything more than pathetic promises of atonement?
The phenomenon of transgender activism provides the latest battleground – an unlikely identity group suffering alleged injustices. As Douglas Murray said some years ago, transgender activism is being used as a kind of battering ram against capitalism. Judging by the ready capitulation to trans demands that battering ram works well. 
Hardly a week goes by without some supposed setback for one of the pet woke causes and we are supposed to believe that the tide is turning – yet the Woke keep on winning. We who believe in free speech look in anger at what ‘the long march’ is doing to our institutions yet only rarely is attention given to the actual individuals who are enforcing this Woke agenda. They need to be put clearly in the spotlight and their exploitation of their positions of power exposed. More and better investigative journalism is needed.
Anyway, to paraphrase that old NRA slogan:

Institutions don’t oppress people. People oppress people.

Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Thanks.
I accept that few individuals openly concede defeat during a debate but the audience can be persuaded one way or another. It is also true that most people adjust or tweak their views after they lose an argument if only to make them more easily defended.
To take the specific example of the Tavistock as an example, if strong internal debate had been encouraged then I doubt that the misguided policy of the automatic “affirmation” of some teenage girls’ belief that they needed to change gender would have survived unmodified.
I also entirely agree with you on that the Woke have been very skilful in quietly seizing control of key parts of the system and using those to manipulate policy on the issues that interest them. I take the view that this undemocratic modus operandi relies upon the silencing of dissenting voices which is why they are so reluctant to engage in debate and so aggressive about cancelling those who disagree.
My point is this manipulation / intimidation strategy can not not survive an open debate. Forcing progressives to defend their plans in public will make them abandon some and modify or moderate others.
A focus on this issue of an open debate is also more likely to generate public support than trying to, say, explain the nihilistic philosophical core of the “critical theory” mindset underlying most Woke campaigns.
I do not know which side will win but I believe that this approach has a better chance of success than anything else I can think of. I suppose it is a variant of the view that “sunshine is the best disinfectant”. It is not just a naive liberal reflex but is also intended to be a hard headed strategy to exploit a potential weakness in the approach of the “progressives”.

Last edited 10 months ago by Rupert Carnegie
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

Well stated. I appreciate your politeness and fair-minded approach. Buried in your mega-paragraph above (along with much else of substance) is this key point: “We need to accept that the public square needs agreed and transparent rules”. Amen.
A worthwhile exchange. Excellent series of posts.

Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thanks. Kind comment. Sorry about the “mega paragraph”. I actually typed out a series of clearly separated and indented paragraphs but for some reason the UnHerd software squished it all together.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

Understood. Cheers.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

Understood. Cheers.

Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thanks. Kind comment. Sorry about the “mega paragraph”. I actually typed out a series of clearly separated and indented paragraphs but for some reason the UnHerd software squished it all together.

N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago

I’m sorry, Rupert Carnegie, but I remain unconvinced on the debate question. Debate will see righteous minds on both sides of the issue busy with their heated exchanges (making salient points, exposing the hollowness of the opposition’s arguments etc) while the Woke continue to take over the actual centres of influence and power.
Even if you generate public support with open debate what will that ammount to in terms of effective action? We need a political force ready and willing to act. As a prime example: the debate over the rights and wrongs of mass immigration from the third world to the West is never ending even though majority public support for tight control of mass immigration has been well and truly generated – yet illegal migrants just keep on coming.
Anyway, I remain in favour of freedom of speech, freedom of information and convinced that the main forces driving unwanted cultural/political change need to be exposed and their aims and methods more widely understood.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Check back in six months from now when you’ve had time to fully integrate your exchange with Mr. Carnegie. Just kidding, kind of. Not everyone is so impervious to persuasion, not even those who imagine themselves impervious (though some truly are).
We don’t spontaneously generate all of our own opinions and principles inside our own individual minds, do we? In other words, our current beliefs–anyone’s, however they differ–are largely a synthesis of persuasive & rhetorical & argumentative inputs we’ve encountered “in the wild”. A form of long-term debate.

N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Oh Lord, AJ Mac! My attempt to get one basic point accross is really is turning into a uphill struggle against the UnHerd cosy old pals club – don’t worry, just kidding (kind of)!
I’ll try again. To repeat:

No matter how amiable the spirit in which debates are conducted the opposing sides will never simply admit defeat and change their ways. The true winner is he who can turn his beliefs into effective action.

and…

Even if you generate public support with open debate what will that ammount to in terms of effective action? 

However, I’m sure you have no interest in what I actually posted (clearly shown by that astonishingly patronising lesson on how people generate opinions) but only in my unwillingness to accept Rupert Carnegie’s view of the ultimate effectiveness of debate.
Perhaps it’s worth considering a popular sentiment political stalwarts are fond of uttering following electoral defeat: ‘We may have lost the vote but we’ve won the argument!’.
Anyway, for the commentariat opinion versus opiinion is the only battle that counts.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

At times, N. Satori, you do seem hostile to a good-faith exchange (and I can be too, but not always). If you regard your own posts as neutral, in no way patronizing in their tone, you might want to re-read them yourself.
The point you continually sidestep (of late anyway) is that while debaters rarely admit they’re wrong on the spot and almost never in full, that their opinions are very likely to be subtly altered, often significantly over time, as a result of certain exchanges, either as an audience member or participant. The framework of a classic debate often has both sides arguing an extreme and rigid case; most sensible listeners will already be positioned somewhere in the middle.
Why would you bother arguing with the UnHerd ol’ boys club if you had no hope of persuading anyone?
That said, while I disagree with you on this particular subject–and don’t plan to budge any time soon–I think you make a lot of sense and make a strong overall contribution to these often chaotic online “debates”, your exchange with Mr. Carnegie included. No condescension intended. See you on the boards, sir.

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

AJ Mac, I am about to start tearing my hair out in frustation!
Is it what I am saying really so difficult to understand? What does the subtle altering of opinion matter if he who holds it has no power to effect change?
Rupert Carnegie began by complaining about useless Jeremiads. His alternative, when challenged, was a menu of debate and discussion. I expressed my doubts about that giving my reasons.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

What a dreadful reply. It’s true there’s no possible useful debate with someone who’s convinced of their high rectitude, with lessons to teach (or shout) but nothing to learn. That’s the sort of person you appear to be right now.
I handed you an olive branch and you came back with your hair on fire. You shifted the goalposts to now argue that change in opinion or perspective is rendered meaningless unless someone has a certain amount of power to effect change. That is a bullshit pivot.
Sometimes admitting movement or change within ourselves is the only power we have–in fact, that is often only thing within our control, to the partial degree that it is in our control. Might not be a lot of power, but it is not nothing either.
I do understand your opinion, and I respect it, if not your rude insistence on how I don’t understand or can’t accept its to-you-self-evident truth.
Have a good day and don’t lose all your remaining piece of mind just because you disagree with or don’t like me.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

If you’re simply arguing that debate, by itself, won’t save society or humankind or even come close: on that we totally agree.

m3pc7q3ixe
m3pc7q3ixe
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I do not see it as an either/or situation.

1/ Debate normally has worked in western societies (as AJ Mac and I argue). Public opinion has usually led to action.

2/ The radical progressives have been successful over the last decade in part because they have avoided open debate and focussed on taking control of various institutions (as N Satori emphasises if I understand him correctly).

3/ This process is potentially vulnerable since it relies on intimidation of dissenting voices (common ground).

4/ If the intimidation loses its effect and open debate resumes then many of the more malign aspects of the various progressive campaigns will be exposed to sharp criticism or ridicule and often will be withdrawn (my point)

5/ This will still leave
“progressive” ideas and individuals embedded in various institutions but it is a step in the right direction.

6/ Forensic journalism of e.g. the Tavistock will lead to change in specific institutions (as Satori highlights). This depends, however, on a wider Overton window just as debate does. They flourish in parallel.

I may be optimistic and/or naive but I am not sure that our differences are as great as all that. Debate works but only if those who control the levers of power respect and support it. This is not currently the case for many “woke” issues but could become so once again.

Last edited 10 months ago by m3pc7q3ixe
m3pc7q3ixe
m3pc7q3ixe
10 months ago
Reply to  m3pc7q3ixe

Incidentally I am also known as Rupert or Alex Carnegie.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  m3pc7q3ixe

Well said, commenter also known as multiple Carnegies (they let you switch so freely?).
I agree that there is sizable common ground underneath, though the tone of the exchange, especially between N. Satori and myself, became disputatious.
I don’t think dissent and good-faith debate are as endangered as they may seem. Periods of open-exchange tend to alternate with those that are repressive and conformist. We are in an repressive-leaning age, and while the public square is threatened and needs defending, we’re not unable to voice our views opinions in most cases, though public speech in academia and many workplaces is stifled at present, in a major way.
N. Satori makes a valid, critical point about the diminished voice of most individuals, and the silencing power as well as ideological capture of institutions. However, that is not new, and the extremists, on both sides–though we can usually better agree to focus on and attack the far left here at UnHerd–are not winning as much, nor with as many as is rumored, in my estimation.
The loudest hard-liners are taking up too much air, and exploiting new technology for dissemination and amplification. That is also, in significant measure, a new version of a very old problem.
Thank you for your polite, sensible, and insightful comments. I could stand to steal a page or two from your calm and measured approach.

m3pc7q3ixe
m3pc7q3ixe
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

My apparent Multiple Personality Disorder on UnHerd is involuntary. I must have done something to confuse the UH software at some point.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  m3pc7q3ixe

Wow. Interesting glitch.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  m3pc7q3ixe

Wow. Interesting glitch.

m3pc7q3ixe
m3pc7q3ixe
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

My apparent Multiple Personality Disorder on UnHerd is involuntary. I must have done something to confuse the UH software at some point.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  m3pc7q3ixe

Well said, commenter also known as multiple Carnegies (they let you switch so freely?).
I agree that there is sizable common ground underneath, though the tone of the exchange, especially between N. Satori and myself, became disputatious.
I don’t think dissent and good-faith debate are as endangered as they may seem. Periods of open-exchange tend to alternate with those that are repressive and conformist. We are in an repressive-leaning age, and while the public square is threatened and needs defending, we’re not unable to voice our views opinions in most cases, though public speech in academia and many workplaces is stifled at present, in a major way.
N. Satori makes a valid, critical point about the diminished voice of most individuals, and the silencing power as well as ideological capture of institutions. However, that is not new, and the extremists, on both sides–though we can usually better agree to focus on and attack the far left here at UnHerd–are not winning as much, nor with as many as is rumored, in my estimation.
The loudest hard-liners are taking up too much air, and exploiting new technology for dissemination and amplification. That is also, in significant measure, a new version of a very old problem.
Thank you for your polite, sensible, and insightful comments. I could stand to steal a page or two from your calm and measured approach.

m3pc7q3ixe
m3pc7q3ixe
10 months ago
Reply to  m3pc7q3ixe

Incidentally I am also known as Rupert or Alex Carnegie.

m3pc7q3ixe
m3pc7q3ixe
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I do not see it as an either/or situation.

1/ Debate normally has worked in western societies (as AJ Mac and I argue). Public opinion has usually led to action.

2/ The radical progressives have been successful over the last decade in part because they have avoided open debate and focussed on taking control of various institutions (as N Satori emphasises if I understand him correctly).

3/ This process is potentially vulnerable since it relies on intimidation of dissenting voices (common ground).

4/ If the intimidation loses its effect and open debate resumes then many of the more malign aspects of the various progressive campaigns will be exposed to sharp criticism or ridicule and often will be withdrawn (my point)

5/ This will still leave
“progressive” ideas and individuals embedded in various institutions but it is a step in the right direction.

6/ Forensic journalism of e.g. the Tavistock will lead to change in specific institutions (as Satori highlights). This depends, however, on a wider Overton window just as debate does. They flourish in parallel.

I may be optimistic and/or naive but I am not sure that our differences are as great as all that. Debate works but only if those who control the levers of power respect and support it. This is not currently the case for many “woke” issues but could become so once again.

Last edited 10 months ago by m3pc7q3ixe
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

If you’re simply arguing that debate, by itself, won’t save society or humankind or even come close: on that we totally agree.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

What a dreadful reply. It’s true there’s no possible useful debate with someone who’s convinced of their high rectitude, with lessons to teach (or shout) but nothing to learn. That’s the sort of person you appear to be right now.
I handed you an olive branch and you came back with your hair on fire. You shifted the goalposts to now argue that change in opinion or perspective is rendered meaningless unless someone has a certain amount of power to effect change. That is a bullshit pivot.
Sometimes admitting movement or change within ourselves is the only power we have–in fact, that is often only thing within our control, to the partial degree that it is in our control. Might not be a lot of power, but it is not nothing either.
I do understand your opinion, and I respect it, if not your rude insistence on how I don’t understand or can’t accept its to-you-self-evident truth.
Have a good day and don’t lose all your remaining piece of mind just because you disagree with or don’t like me.

N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

AJ Mac, I am about to start tearing my hair out in frustation!
Is it what I am saying really so difficult to understand? What does the subtle altering of opinion matter if he who holds it has no power to effect change?
Rupert Carnegie began by complaining about useless Jeremiads. His alternative, when challenged, was a menu of debate and discussion. I expressed my doubts about that giving my reasons.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

At times, N. Satori, you do seem hostile to a good-faith exchange (and I can be too, but not always). If you regard your own posts as neutral, in no way patronizing in their tone, you might want to re-read them yourself.
The point you continually sidestep (of late anyway) is that while debaters rarely admit they’re wrong on the spot and almost never in full, that their opinions are very likely to be subtly altered, often significantly over time, as a result of certain exchanges, either as an audience member or participant. The framework of a classic debate often has both sides arguing an extreme and rigid case; most sensible listeners will already be positioned somewhere in the middle.
Why would you bother arguing with the UnHerd ol’ boys club if you had no hope of persuading anyone?
That said, while I disagree with you on this particular subject–and don’t plan to budge any time soon–I think you make a lot of sense and make a strong overall contribution to these often chaotic online “debates”, your exchange with Mr. Carnegie included. No condescension intended. See you on the boards, sir.

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Oh Lord, AJ Mac! My attempt to get one basic point accross is really is turning into a uphill struggle against the UnHerd cosy old pals club – don’t worry, just kidding (kind of)!
I’ll try again. To repeat:

No matter how amiable the spirit in which debates are conducted the opposing sides will never simply admit defeat and change their ways. The true winner is he who can turn his beliefs into effective action.

and…

Even if you generate public support with open debate what will that ammount to in terms of effective action? 

However, I’m sure you have no interest in what I actually posted (clearly shown by that astonishingly patronising lesson on how people generate opinions) but only in my unwillingness to accept Rupert Carnegie’s view of the ultimate effectiveness of debate.
Perhaps it’s worth considering a popular sentiment political stalwarts are fond of uttering following electoral defeat: ‘We may have lost the vote but we’ve won the argument!’.
Anyway, for the commentariat opinion versus opiinion is the only battle that counts.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Check back in six months from now when you’ve had time to fully integrate your exchange with Mr. Carnegie. Just kidding, kind of. Not everyone is so impervious to persuasion, not even those who imagine themselves impervious (though some truly are).
We don’t spontaneously generate all of our own opinions and principles inside our own individual minds, do we? In other words, our current beliefs–anyone’s, however they differ–are largely a synthesis of persuasive & rhetorical & argumentative inputs we’ve encountered “in the wild”. A form of long-term debate.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

Well stated. I appreciate your politeness and fair-minded approach. Buried in your mega-paragraph above (along with much else of substance) is this key point: “We need to accept that the public square needs agreed and transparent rules”. Amen.
A worthwhile exchange. Excellent series of posts.

N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago

I’m sorry, Rupert Carnegie, but I remain unconvinced on the debate question. Debate will see righteous minds on both sides of the issue busy with their heated exchanges (making salient points, exposing the hollowness of the opposition’s arguments etc) while the Woke continue to take over the actual centres of influence and power.
Even if you generate public support with open debate what will that ammount to in terms of effective action? We need a political force ready and willing to act. As a prime example: the debate over the rights and wrongs of mass immigration from the third world to the West is never ending even though majority public support for tight control of mass immigration has been well and truly generated – yet illegal migrants just keep on coming.
Anyway, I remain in favour of freedom of speech, freedom of information and convinced that the main forces driving unwanted cultural/political change need to be exposed and their aims and methods more widely understood.

Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Thanks.
I accept that few individuals openly concede defeat during a debate but the audience can be persuaded one way or another. It is also true that most people adjust or tweak their views after they lose an argument if only to make them more easily defended.
To take the specific example of the Tavistock as an example, if strong internal debate had been encouraged then I doubt that the misguided policy of the automatic “affirmation” of some teenage girls’ belief that they needed to change gender would have survived unmodified.
I also entirely agree with you on that the Woke have been very skilful in quietly seizing control of key parts of the system and using those to manipulate policy on the issues that interest them. I take the view that this undemocratic modus operandi relies upon the silencing of dissenting voices which is why they are so reluctant to engage in debate and so aggressive about cancelling those who disagree.
My point is this manipulation / intimidation strategy can not not survive an open debate. Forcing progressives to defend their plans in public will make them abandon some and modify or moderate others.
A focus on this issue of an open debate is also more likely to generate public support than trying to, say, explain the nihilistic philosophical core of the “critical theory” mindset underlying most Woke campaigns.
I do not know which side will win but I believe that this approach has a better chance of success than anything else I can think of. I suppose it is a variant of the view that “sunshine is the best disinfectant”. It is not just a naive liberal reflex but is also intended to be a hard headed strategy to exploit a potential weakness in the approach of the “progressives”.

Last edited 10 months ago by Rupert Carnegie
N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago

Thanks for that very well thought out reply. 
I’m afraid I cannot share your faith in the efficacy of debate. No matter how amiable the spirit in which debates are conducted the opposing sides will never simply admit defeat and change their ways. The true winner is he who can turn his beliefs into effective action.
Back in the mid-1990s when Labour were still licking their wounds after electoral defeat by John Major’s Tories I remember reading a piece by the late Gerald Kaufman in the London Evening Standard in which he attempted to take a hard and realistic look at Labour’s repeated failures (this was before Tony Blair became their new leader if memory serves). In Kaufman’s view Labour’s failure lay in it’s inability to understand how to build up and wield political power – concentrating instead on ‘the rightness of their cause’ if I can put it that way. At the time Labour ‘grass roots’ were seriously depleted while the Conservatives’ were in good health.
If you think that point is irrelevant just consider what has happened to our institutions. The Woke Left have certainly learned where the control points of power are. An interesting observation made by Martin Gurri:

The path to Communist revolution, wrote Marx in the Manifesto, ‘involved the most radical rupture with traditional ideas’.

That most radical rupture (not merely with ideas but but with beliefs, customs, history, cultural identity and even sexual identity) is taking place daily and is proving very effective in undermining and destabilising Western culture. If every achievement of the culture you were raised in can be denounced as moraly suspect (if not degenerate) what happens to your self-belief? Can you answer your critics with anything more than pathetic promises of atonement?
The phenomenon of transgender activism provides the latest battleground – an unlikely identity group suffering alleged injustices. As Douglas Murray said some years ago, transgender activism is being used as a kind of battering ram against capitalism. Judging by the ready capitulation to trans demands that battering ram works well. 
Hardly a week goes by without some supposed setback for one of the pet woke causes and we are supposed to believe that the tide is turning – yet the Woke keep on winning. We who believe in free speech look in anger at what ‘the long march’ is doing to our institutions yet only rarely is attention given to the actual individuals who are enforcing this Woke agenda. They need to be put clearly in the spotlight and their exploitation of their positions of power exposed. More and better investigative journalism is needed.
Anyway, to paraphrase that old NRA slogan:

Institutions don’t oppress people. People oppress people.

Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

This is too large a subject to address effectively in a comments section – and were UnHerd to solicit essay length contributions then I would be happy to provide one – but a few headline points might be: 1/ It is too easy to be defeatist or fatalistic. I am not complacent about the seriousness of the challenge – and, in particular, the way “progressive ideas” have become embedded in teacher training and the overall educational system – but there are encouraging historical parallels. In the 1930s many students and others supported Pacifism or Marxism. In the 1960s their successors embraced a variety of radical political and social ideas (as well as each other). In both cases their parents were horrified but the former cohort became the “greatest generation” and the latter the liberal if self indulgent boomers. Western society has historically progressed through facing challenges and reacting constructively. It is premature to assume we will fail this time.2/ The current reaction is gathering momentum. The “Overton window” has noticeably expanded. That said, my impression is that the main impact in the last eighteen months has been that the over 30s have woken up to what has been going on. It is far less clear if there has been as much movement amongst the under 30s. 3/ I see the central challenge as persuading Gen Z – and especially Gen Z students at the more prestigious universities – to recognise the virtues of open debate with objective truth not conformity as being the trump card. It produces better results.4/ Put another way, the core issue is about means not ends. Many people agree with – or at least accept as legitimate – many of the complaints of Gen Z. The problem is not that the Woke want tolerance for trans, less economic inequality, racial justice, more action on climate change, etc but their reluctance to debate these issues and their attempts to intimidate and delegitimise any dissent even on matters of detail. They are attacking the Enlightenment values which dominated the western approach for two hundred years. In particular, they are seeking to destroy the primacy of free debate as the route to good decisions.5/ This is not just a battle of ideas per se. It feeds off a number of structural factors as well. The impact of identity politics, social media, polarisation, ideological bubbles, etc have been widely discussed. They provide the fertile soil without which the seeds of progressive radicalism would have withered not flourished. Western society needs to adjust its legal, political and technology frameworks.6/ The area which would benefit most from informed debate is the regulation of social media. Quite apart from the psychological impact on teenagers, the status quo is unacceptable e.g. algorithms which deliberately push individuals into ideologically extreme corners of the internet may benefit the owners through increasing enraged “engagement” and thus profitability but the impact on society is pernicious. We need to accept that the public square needs agreed and transparent rules. Big subject.7/ Most people respond more forcefully to stories than abstract concepts. In addition to focussing on individual examples such as the Tavistock, trans success in women’s sports, etc certain grand historical counter narratives need to be developed and pushed e.g. depicting the “Western system” as a set of institutions and values that have rescued billions from poverty and tyranny, can be deployed beneficially anywhere – and could just as easily have arisen in the Middle East or China as in Europe – and have an inherent capacity for endless self improvement, rather than as the system of racist and patriarchal oppression unchanged in essentials since the seventeenth century as described in post colonial studies. 8/ Personally, I believe that the economic predicament of Gen Z is a much more important factor in its radicalisation than is generally accepted. If their individual prospects were less dispiriting then I suspect they would become calmer on a wide range of topics. How to achieve this is another area for debate.9/ Britain would also benefit from a declaration of psychological independence from the United States. There is a clear contrast between the British reactions to McCarthyism – horror – and to the American Social Justice movement – emulation – despite the obvious parallels. We need a renewed confidence to think for ourselves.10/ The overall point is that we need to restate the core values of the Enlightenment but also to develop new ideas as how to apply these given current society and technology e.g. it is insufficient to defend “free speech”; we also need to establish new rules for how certain speech is privileged and other speech is de-emphasised in the public square. Most would agree that the soft censorship during covid was overdone but that so are the algorithms that exacerbate polarisation and extremism.11/ Pushing a positive agenda is important but so is a relentless critique of the theory and practice of the radical progressive movement. We need to excoriate the mindset that sees everything as a power struggle between endlessly redefined privileged and marginalised categories as well as point out the practical results of individual persecutions, ill thought schemes to defund the police and DEI training sessions which turn out to increase unconscious bias.Others would stress different points. A thorough going debate – in the constructive and amiable spirit UnHerd encourages – would undoubtedly lead to richer conclusions than those produced by any one individual. 

Last edited 10 months ago by Rupert Carnegie
Duane M
Duane M
10 months ago

I agree completely. The shared delusion that has led us to this point in history is that we are individuals who join together in societies. That is the foundation of Liberal thinking. And it is false.
Humans are social animals by nature. We exist primarily as members of society and secondarily as individuals. I live in an area with many Amish. They put their Amish community first and their individual wishes second. And they are successful.
To give up so much of our individuality would be quite difficult for most of us. Equivalent to dropping everything and moving into a monastery. But something along that line is what we need, because an obsession with individual identity and individual desires is near the root of our problem.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Duane M

Interesting take that I partly agree with. But don’t many traditional conservatives lionize individualism too, and don’t many classical liberals argue for the common good? I understand that these terms are cloudy and subject to dispute, but your claim seems at once valid and reductive.
The Amish present an example of extreme communitarian conformity. It works for those who surrender fully, but those who don’t are, in effect, exiled, at least if they don’t settle down after Rumspringa. Then again the degree of conformity or ostracism involved would depend somewhat on the individual household or village.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Duane M

Interesting take that I partly agree with. But don’t many traditional conservatives lionize individualism too, and don’t many classical liberals argue for the common good? I understand that these terms are cloudy and subject to dispute, but your claim seems at once valid and reductive.
The Amish present an example of extreme communitarian conformity. It works for those who surrender fully, but those who don’t are, in effect, exiled, at least if they don’t settle down after Rumspringa. Then again the degree of conformity or ostracism involved would depend somewhat on the individual household or village.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
10 months ago

How about we all rally around “saving the planet”? We could hold hands, drink from paper straws and share stories of how we keep warm in winter when the sun isn’t shining or the wind stops blowing.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

A genuinely useful, plausible suggestion, and certainly worth a try. Perhaps a dynamic and varied set of competing “coherent ideas” would foster a significant break in the calcified cluster of disputes dominating these pages of late.

Rob C
Rob C
10 months ago

What set of ideas could possibly stand up against Equitarian morality? It’s clearly the highest morality and it’s hard to make a case against the highest morality. Arguing that it will lead to universal human misery won’t cut it.

N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago

OK Rupert Carnegie. Why wait for UnHerd? Just break the cycle of boredom yourself. Set the ball rolling now with your own coherent set of ideas and let’s see how far they go.

Duane M
Duane M
10 months ago

I agree completely. The shared delusion that has led us to this point in history is that we are individuals who join together in societies. That is the foundation of Liberal thinking. And it is false.
Humans are social animals by nature. We exist primarily as members of society and secondarily as individuals. I live in an area with many Amish. They put their Amish community first and their individual wishes second. And they are successful.
To give up so much of our individuality would be quite difficult for most of us. Equivalent to dropping everything and moving into a monastery. But something along that line is what we need, because an obsession with individual identity and individual desires is near the root of our problem.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
10 months ago

How about we all rally around “saving the planet”? We could hold hands, drink from paper straws and share stories of how we keep warm in winter when the sun isn’t shining or the wind stops blowing.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

A genuinely useful, plausible suggestion, and certainly worth a try. Perhaps a dynamic and varied set of competing “coherent ideas” would foster a significant break in the calcified cluster of disputes dominating these pages of late.

Rob C
Rob C
10 months ago

What set of ideas could possibly stand up against Equitarian morality? It’s clearly the highest morality and it’s hard to make a case against the highest morality. Arguing that it will lead to universal human misery won’t cut it.

Rupert Carnegie
Rupert Carnegie
10 months ago

The most important point is the final sentence: “… the ragged engine of identity has an open road ahead and will continue its suicidal rampage through American life until opposed by a coherent set of ideas.”
I am bored of articles describing or decrying what is going on. Anyone with an open mind and reasonable intelligence grasped the dangers of current trends some time ago. What we ought to be debating instead is what “coherent set of ideas” we should deploy as a persuasive alternative to the radical progressive creed. We need practical suggestions and a positive vision not just expressions of horror or distaste.
Some of these “coherent ideas” can come from long standing Enlightenment values but we also need new ideas especially in response to the impact of social media on debate and globalisation on western economies. Previous politically destabilising technological changes e.g. printing or radio were eventually tamed. No scheme of reforms will work which does not inter alia improve the prospects of Gen Z.
Maybe UnHerd should ask for submissions and publish the five best “coherent set of ideas” on a single day. It might spark something more useful than yet more repetitive Jeremiads.

Last edited 10 months ago by Rupert Carnegie
S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago

I definitely agree with the last sentence here. As someone who always has loosely identified with the “left,” it is now unrecognizable to me in all its monstrous forms; especially as it pertains to the security state and the military-industrial complex. But woke identitarianism has also been captured by the financial speculators and the very largest, most corrupt corporations on the planet. The spirit of the Old Left–an attempt to lift up the poor, the downtrodden, the working class and even the middle class, has been replaced by a mean-spirited capitalism that I would say is far more insidious than the Rockefeller kind of old–as it is cloaked and disguised the language of Wokeism and can therefore do terrible things in its name.

Rob C
Rob C
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

Haven’t they just gone global (the Left)? Tearing down the more prosperous nations will help lift up the poorer ones.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

So true. As one of the “old left” I find myself floundering because I absolutely don’t identify with “wokeism”. That label has now been attached to the left so what can one say one is?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

A fair-minded independent?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

An ex-partisan?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

An ex-partisan?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

A fair-minded independent?

Rob C
Rob C
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

Haven’t they just gone global (the Left)? Tearing down the more prosperous nations will help lift up the poorer ones.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

So true. As one of the “old left” I find myself floundering because I absolutely don’t identify with “wokeism”. That label has now been attached to the left so what can one say one is?

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago

I definitely agree with the last sentence here. As someone who always has loosely identified with the “left,” it is now unrecognizable to me in all its monstrous forms; especially as it pertains to the security state and the military-industrial complex. But woke identitarianism has also been captured by the financial speculators and the very largest, most corrupt corporations on the planet. The spirit of the Old Left–an attempt to lift up the poor, the downtrodden, the working class and even the middle class, has been replaced by a mean-spirited capitalism that I would say is far more insidious than the Rockefeller kind of old–as it is cloaked and disguised the language of Wokeism and can therefore do terrible things in its name.

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
10 months ago

We simply don’t realize who the real enemy is. It isn’t Trump supporters or woke academics or raging essayists; it is the neo-liberal multi-national corporation that wants to keep our politics mired in the muck while they rake in profits and hire cheap labor. Their idea of equity is to pauperize the working class. We are so busy dividing ourselves into tribes that we can’t even comprehend what they have done. Our rage is misplaced.

Rob C
Rob C
10 months ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

I think that’s backward. The Neo-liberal multi-national corporations are just the useful idiots of the Equitarians. In time, they will be crushed.

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
10 months ago
Reply to  Rob C

Yeah, Jamie Diamond is a useful idiot. You have it backwards. The woke have been co-opted by corporations because as long as they make virtuous noises about DEI they get to do whatever they want. It’s a game of bait and switch.
Where do you think the money to keep CNN and MSNBC on the air comes from?

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
10 months ago
Reply to  Rob C

Yeah, Jamie Diamond is a useful idiot. You have it backwards. The woke have been co-opted by corporations because as long as they make virtuous noises about DEI they get to do whatever they want. It’s a game of bait and switch.
Where do you think the money to keep CNN and MSNBC on the air comes from?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Exactly.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
10 months ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Exactly that, thankyou. All this other stuff is simply a by product of a wealth distribution bent out shape. Fix that (and it IS fixable) and most of these other issues will go away.

Rob C
Rob C
10 months ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

I think that’s backward. The Neo-liberal multi-national corporations are just the useful idiots of the Equitarians. In time, they will be crushed.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Exactly.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
10 months ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Exactly that, thankyou. All this other stuff is simply a by product of a wealth distribution bent out shape. Fix that (and it IS fixable) and most of these other issues will go away.

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
10 months ago

We simply don’t realize who the real enemy is. It isn’t Trump supporters or woke academics or raging essayists; it is the neo-liberal multi-national corporation that wants to keep our politics mired in the muck while they rake in profits and hire cheap labor. Their idea of equity is to pauperize the working class. We are so busy dividing ourselves into tribes that we can’t even comprehend what they have done. Our rage is misplaced.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
10 months ago

“equity means …” Hang on a minute.

Until seems like yesterday, equity meant the share of an asset you owned.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

According to my dictionary Equity means:
“The quality of being fair and impartial” which, I suppose is pretty elastic given the variety of possible meanings for those two terms?
The key is: Equality of inputs not outcomes. If inputs cannot be equalises then they can be compensated for but not by jumping all the way to outcomes.. so, perhaps free grinds for disadvantaged students so they can compensate for a bad education? ..but not a qota

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

You are conflating equity with equality.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

And there you have the crux of the problem – forget about equality of input / opportunity, even after tilting the scales in their favour, women, blacks, Hispanics etc are unable to deliver equality of output in many areas. Stem, business ownership, many high achieving careers…

And it’s absolutely unacceptable to consider any explanation other than racism / patriarchy.

Of course, this only works one way. Blacks in sports, women in media / medicine / teaching? Absolutely ok.
Hilariously, we have “racism” against blacks in college but those pesky white men seem ok with majority women in education.
Ditto sports, where patriarchal white males force women to run slower but are happy with blacks dominating.

Stoater D
Stoater D
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

You are conflating equity with equality.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

And there you have the crux of the problem – forget about equality of input / opportunity, even after tilting the scales in their favour, women, blacks, Hispanics etc are unable to deliver equality of output in many areas. Stem, business ownership, many high achieving careers…

And it’s absolutely unacceptable to consider any explanation other than racism / patriarchy.

Of course, this only works one way. Blacks in sports, women in media / medicine / teaching? Absolutely ok.
Hilariously, we have “racism” against blacks in college but those pesky white men seem ok with majority women in education.
Ditto sports, where patriarchal white males force women to run slower but are happy with blacks dominating.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

According to my dictionary Equity means:
“The quality of being fair and impartial” which, I suppose is pretty elastic given the variety of possible meanings for those two terms?
The key is: Equality of inputs not outcomes. If inputs cannot be equalises then they can be compensated for but not by jumping all the way to outcomes.. so, perhaps free grinds for disadvantaged students so they can compensate for a bad education? ..but not a qota

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
10 months ago

“equity means …” Hang on a minute.

Until seems like yesterday, equity meant the share of an asset you owned.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago

It is indeed like Invasion of the Bodysnatchers – the best version being the original 1950s one. I even said as much during the COVID scam when people were doing the elbow thing and double masking.

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Lizards in skin suits……

If you do not think Biden and Pilosi have full time taxidermists on their payroll you have not been listening to enough David Icke.

Jane H
Jane H
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

Have you ever read a David Icke book? He has been the most vilified author of our times but ironically the most staggeringly accurate visionary.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
10 months ago
Reply to  Jane H

I haven’t but I intend to!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Jane H
Jane H
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Wikipedia? You’ll need to do better than that as a recommended source for information/judgement.

Last edited 10 months ago by Jane H
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Jane H

Not when you are recommending a complete charlatan with grandiose delusions. What credibility or sourcing does Icke use to document–or lend any plausibility to–his special conversations with the Spirit World?

Jane H
Jane H
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Every claim made in any of David Icke’s books are meticulously researched and referenced. But then you’ve fallen at the first hurdle by never having actually read one and are a perfect example of how successful the deliberate vilification and ridicule campaign has been to discredit him. To the deep state his is an extremely dangerous man, provably and too close to the truth. Their campaign has been very successful as very few, including you, would ever bother listening to what he has/had to say.

Jane H
Jane H
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Every claim made in any of David Icke’s books are meticulously researched and referenced. But then you’ve fallen at the first hurdle by never having actually read one and are a perfect example of how successful the deliberate vilification and ridicule campaign has been to discredit him. To the deep state his is an extremely dangerous man, provably and too close to the truth. Their campaign has been very successful as very few, including you, would ever bother listening to what he has/had to say.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Jane H

Not when you are recommending a complete charlatan with grandiose delusions. What credibility or sourcing does Icke use to document–or lend any plausibility to–his special conversations with the Spirit World?

Jane H
Jane H
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Wikipedia? You’ll need to do better than that as a recommended source for information/judgement.

Last edited 10 months ago by Jane H
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
10 months ago
Reply to  Jane H

I haven’t but I intend to!

Jane H
Jane H
10 months ago
Reply to  Emil Castelli

Have you ever read a David Icke book? He has been the most vilified author of our times but ironically the most staggeringly accurate visionary.

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Lizards in skin suits……

If you do not think Biden and Pilosi have full time taxidermists on their payroll you have not been listening to enough David Icke.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago

It is indeed like Invasion of the Bodysnatchers – the best version being the original 1950s one. I even said as much during the COVID scam when people were doing the elbow thing and double masking.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
10 months ago

The author misses the most salient point. All of these changes came with the advent of the internet. The thoughts and fantasies, and the mannerisms, of adolescent/teenage (mostly) boys have become the central starting point of our relationships with the rest of the human race. The emotional instability, the violent ideations, the fear, the sexual immaturity, the desperate need of certainty…
You all know what you have to do. Don’t look at your phone unless you need it for direct communication. With another human being! It’s a phone, damn-it, not an oracle.

Last edited 10 months ago by laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
10 months ago

The author misses the most salient point. All of these changes came with the advent of the internet. The thoughts and fantasies, and the mannerisms, of adolescent/teenage (mostly) boys have become the central starting point of our relationships with the rest of the human race. The emotional instability, the violent ideations, the fear, the sexual immaturity, the desperate need of certainty…
You all know what you have to do. Don’t look at your phone unless you need it for direct communication. With another human being! It’s a phone, damn-it, not an oracle.

Last edited 10 months ago by laurence scaduto
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
10 months ago

The clown car that is equity.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
10 months ago

The clown car that is equity.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

The whole argument seemed, like so much that is American, to skim along the surface, making small points on small issues. Of course in their totality small issues add up to, or at least are indicative of, larger issues.
The ‘take aways’ (not sure I like that term) seem to me to be…
1. America (and the West) is in a state of Identity crisis, blind rage and perpetual conflict; a nihilistic state of confusion, devoid of old out of date ideological ideas, hopes, beliefs and dreams: rejecting the past, denying the present and as a consequence, devoid of a future.
2. A huge, disorganised rabble are rejecting all authority, political, scientific and spiritual, with no clue as to what might replace such “dead options”. No answers are apparent.
3. Modern society has lost ‘meaning’ unable to identify even what a Utopia might look like let alone any concept of how it might be achieved.
Societal suicide therefore seems like the only option left best achieved with a combination of ever more potent recreational drugs and WW3 with nuclear Armageddon thrown in for good measure.
So, let’s head for cliff then shall we? You go on, I’ll follow later …not! In the words of Sam Goldwin: Include me out!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

This post is in your finest mode. I’ll even brush past the reflexive, not totally unearned stab at American shallowness.(I wonder: Does Ireland, or wherever you currently reside, seem like a hopeful and well-tethered place these days?). I relate to what I’ll call your frustrated idealism. Count me in.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Decline in spirit. Without spirit mind and body cannot be tempered by adversity which is required to develop fortitude.
Nimsdai Purja achieved what was considered the impossible in climbing 8000m plus peaks so quickly. The achievement was by tempering his body and mind: first by joining the Gurkhas, next passing All Arms Ccommando Course and the passing selction for SBS and staying in for ten years.
Nirmal Purja – Wikipedia
Barnes Wallis tempered his mind by undertaking pro longed and rigorous engineering innovation.
Barnes Wallis – Wikipedia
The Dam Busters is a superb example of spirit, the spirit of Gibson VC and the aircrew and that of Wallis ; courage, skill and innovation are physical manifestations of spirit.
Guy Gibson – Wikipedia
We now have a vast , especially middle class, population who desire to be spoonfed, have their problems solved by others and an given short snappy answers.
Identity politics is a way of obtaining status without spirit and is therefore very attractive to under achieving unfit humanities graduates.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

This post is in your finest mode. I’ll even brush past the reflexive, not totally unearned stab at American shallowness.(I wonder: Does Ireland, or wherever you currently reside, seem like a hopeful and well-tethered place these days?). I relate to what I’ll call your frustrated idealism. Count me in.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Decline in spirit. Without spirit mind and body cannot be tempered by adversity which is required to develop fortitude.
Nimsdai Purja achieved what was considered the impossible in climbing 8000m plus peaks so quickly. The achievement was by tempering his body and mind: first by joining the Gurkhas, next passing All Arms Ccommando Course and the passing selction for SBS and staying in for ten years.
Nirmal Purja – Wikipedia
Barnes Wallis tempered his mind by undertaking pro longed and rigorous engineering innovation.
Barnes Wallis – Wikipedia
The Dam Busters is a superb example of spirit, the spirit of Gibson VC and the aircrew and that of Wallis ; courage, skill and innovation are physical manifestations of spirit.
Guy Gibson – Wikipedia
We now have a vast , especially middle class, population who desire to be spoonfed, have their problems solved by others and an given short snappy answers.
Identity politics is a way of obtaining status without spirit and is therefore very attractive to under achieving unfit humanities graduates.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

The whole argument seemed, like so much that is American, to skim along the surface, making small points on small issues. Of course in their totality small issues add up to, or at least are indicative of, larger issues.
The ‘take aways’ (not sure I like that term) seem to me to be…
1. America (and the West) is in a state of Identity crisis, blind rage and perpetual conflict; a nihilistic state of confusion, devoid of old out of date ideological ideas, hopes, beliefs and dreams: rejecting the past, denying the present and as a consequence, devoid of a future.
2. A huge, disorganised rabble are rejecting all authority, political, scientific and spiritual, with no clue as to what might replace such “dead options”. No answers are apparent.
3. Modern society has lost ‘meaning’ unable to identify even what a Utopia might look like let alone any concept of how it might be achieved.
Societal suicide therefore seems like the only option left best achieved with a combination of ever more potent recreational drugs and WW3 with nuclear Armageddon thrown in for good measure.
So, let’s head for cliff then shall we? You go on, I’ll follow later …not! In the words of Sam Goldwin: Include me out!

Lewis Eliot
Lewis Eliot
10 months ago

I’m freshly back from the USA; the ‘Colonies’, as Mr Stanhope (occasionally of this parish) would describe the place. It was ‘Pride’ week, with lots of lovely many-striped flags flown by lots of lovely, thoughtful people. Apparently, everyone you can think of gets their own stripe. I can see why Mr Gurri may be particularly concerned; that’s E Pluribus Unum and two hundred and fifty years of history in the bin.

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
10 months ago
Reply to  Lewis Eliot

I’d be thankful if it was only a week rather than the entire month we’re forced to endure. Previously, if you were gay, you got to go on march one Saturday afternoon then get pissed up in the local park afterwards. The gay clubs would usually put in a lot of effort in the evening. If you had friends who were gay, you were welcome to tag along and the piss up was fun. A jolly time had by all. How did this become every supermarket, department store, public building, petrol station and DIY centre becoming festooned with rainbow flags for a whole month?

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
10 months ago
Reply to  Lewis Eliot

*sigh* once again I have fallen foul of the rude word censor. This time with alternative words:

I’d be thankful if it was only a week rather than the entire month we’re forced to endure. Previously, if you were gay, you got to go on march one Saturday afternoon then get boozed up in the local park afterwards. The gay clubs would usually put in a lot of effort in the evening. If you had friends who were gay, you were welcome to tag along and the booze up was fun. A jolly time had by all. How did this become every supermarket, department store, public building, petrol station and DIY centre becoming festooned with rainbow flags for a whole month?

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
10 months ago
Reply to  Lewis Eliot

I’d be thankful if it was only a week rather than the entire month we’re forced to endure. Previously, if you were gay, you got to go on march one Saturday afternoon then get pissed up in the local park afterwards. The gay clubs would usually put in a lot of effort in the evening. If you had friends who were gay, you were welcome to tag along and the piss up was fun. A jolly time had by all. How did this become every supermarket, department store, public building, petrol station and DIY centre becoming festooned with rainbow flags for a whole month?

Alphonse Pfarti
Alphonse Pfarti
10 months ago
Reply to  Lewis Eliot

*sigh* once again I have fallen foul of the rude word censor. This time with alternative words:

I’d be thankful if it was only a week rather than the entire month we’re forced to endure. Previously, if you were gay, you got to go on march one Saturday afternoon then get boozed up in the local park afterwards. The gay clubs would usually put in a lot of effort in the evening. If you had friends who were gay, you were welcome to tag along and the booze up was fun. A jolly time had by all. How did this become every supermarket, department store, public building, petrol station and DIY centre becoming festooned with rainbow flags for a whole month?

Lewis Eliot
Lewis Eliot
10 months ago

I’m freshly back from the USA; the ‘Colonies’, as Mr Stanhope (occasionally of this parish) would describe the place. It was ‘Pride’ week, with lots of lovely many-striped flags flown by lots of lovely, thoughtful people. Apparently, everyone you can think of gets their own stripe. I can see why Mr Gurri may be particularly concerned; that’s E Pluribus Unum and two hundred and fifty years of history in the bin.

Dick Illyes
Dick Illyes
10 months ago

The new Planter Class – Academia and Government. The Planter Class lived on the stolen labor of their slaves. The new one lives on the stolen future labor of theirs by student loans and the stolen future labor of everyone by incredible public debt.
Madness Rules The Hour about the era leading to the Civil War has a remarkable parallel to today.
What to do with the crazy people trapped inside the totally opaque Blue Bubble is the real question. There doesn’t seem to be an off ramp for them. Their income levels cannot be sustained outside academia and government. They have almost no useful abilities. What was Scarlett O’Hara’s old age like?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  Dick Illyes

Brilliant insights. Your coments about a new Planter Class – Academia and Government being unable to sustain inome levesl outside of these occupations is why they are so resistant to change. In fact we have a situation like the Monasteries in England and Wales pre 1539. Vast numbers of senior clergy were living very well on income from land and financial endowments which had been gifted to the monasteries since the mid 7 th century.The solution was the Dissolution of the Monasteries. The land was sold to nearby farmers and landowners and the monks and nuns given a pension equal to labourers wage. The monks or nuns could live together in houses and with their combined pensions and income from teaching had a comfortable middle class life.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  Dick Illyes

Brilliant insights. Your coments about a new Planter Class – Academia and Government being unable to sustain inome levesl outside of these occupations is why they are so resistant to change. In fact we have a situation like the Monasteries in England and Wales pre 1539. Vast numbers of senior clergy were living very well on income from land and financial endowments which had been gifted to the monasteries since the mid 7 th century.The solution was the Dissolution of the Monasteries. The land was sold to nearby farmers and landowners and the monks and nuns given a pension equal to labourers wage. The monks or nuns could live together in houses and with their combined pensions and income from teaching had a comfortable middle class life.

Dick Illyes
Dick Illyes
10 months ago

The new Planter Class – Academia and Government. The Planter Class lived on the stolen labor of their slaves. The new one lives on the stolen future labor of theirs by student loans and the stolen future labor of everyone by incredible public debt.
Madness Rules The Hour about the era leading to the Civil War has a remarkable parallel to today.
What to do with the crazy people trapped inside the totally opaque Blue Bubble is the real question. There doesn’t seem to be an off ramp for them. Their income levels cannot be sustained outside academia and government. They have almost no useful abilities. What was Scarlett O’Hara’s old age like?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

I agree it’s a kind of nihilism because the ‘movements’ don’t seem to go anywhere.. all that is achieved is a kind of ‘membership’ to stave off an otherwise ‘meaningless’ existence..

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

I agree it’s a kind of nihilism because the ‘movements’ don’t seem to go anywhere.. all that is achieved is a kind of ‘membership’ to stave off an otherwise ‘meaningless’ existence..

Saul D
Saul D
10 months ago

Modern life is about managerialism and control. With better management we can control the outcome. Climate change? Manage energy. Racism? Manage permitted speech. Inequality? Manage opportunities. Interventions are always good, even if they restrict freedom. A controlled and compliant society will be a socially just society where everything bad is controlled and managed out of existence.
Except of course it never happens like that. Rules for crimes don’t stop muggings. Adding consent forms doesn’t stop financial fraud. Managing for diversity doesn’t increase education results.
Managerialism isn’t the panacea they seek. It creates psychopathies. Board members totally focused on money. Sales managers who will say anything for a sale. Lawyers who will bend the law to win a case. Managers who will manipulate reports in their favour. Teachers who blame the curriculum on their results. To go up in the hierarchy is all about performance and dedication 100% to the cause. Doubters do not flourish.
This is why we need more than just government by management. Someone has to balance freedom and humanity from systems of control – management says we should all have locked down, freedom and mutuality says it was a bad option. The people have to have their say, to keep the psychopaths at bay.

Saul D
Saul D
10 months ago

Modern life is about managerialism and control. With better management we can control the outcome. Climate change? Manage energy. Racism? Manage permitted speech. Inequality? Manage opportunities. Interventions are always good, even if they restrict freedom. A controlled and compliant society will be a socially just society where everything bad is controlled and managed out of existence.
Except of course it never happens like that. Rules for crimes don’t stop muggings. Adding consent forms doesn’t stop financial fraud. Managing for diversity doesn’t increase education results.
Managerialism isn’t the panacea they seek. It creates psychopathies. Board members totally focused on money. Sales managers who will say anything for a sale. Lawyers who will bend the law to win a case. Managers who will manipulate reports in their favour. Teachers who blame the curriculum on their results. To go up in the hierarchy is all about performance and dedication 100% to the cause. Doubters do not flourish.
This is why we need more than just government by management. Someone has to balance freedom and humanity from systems of control – management says we should all have locked down, freedom and mutuality says it was a bad option. The people have to have their say, to keep the psychopaths at bay.

Ben Jones
Ben Jones
10 months ago

Blimey. I’m stocking up on canned food and potable water.

Ben Jones
Ben Jones
10 months ago

Blimey. I’m stocking up on canned food and potable water.

Francis Dawson
Francis Dawson
10 months ago

Tocqueville predicted that eventually everyone in America would be either a Catholic or an atheist.

Francis Dawson
Francis Dawson
10 months ago

Tocqueville predicted that eventually everyone in America would be either a Catholic or an atheist.

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
10 months ago

I stopped reading when I got to the part about “government must intervene at every level to ensure equality of outcome”. Isn’t this egregiously impossible demand the central driver for the whole sordid mess?

Last edited 10 months ago by ben arnulfssen
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  ben arnulfssen

I’d say so. And calling for a “coherent set of ideas” at the end of a discursive and meandering text doesn’t administer any part of what it prescribes.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  ben arnulfssen

I’d say so. And calling for a “coherent set of ideas” at the end of a discursive and meandering text doesn’t administer any part of what it prescribes.

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
10 months ago

I stopped reading when I got to the part about “government must intervene at every level to ensure equality of outcome”. Isn’t this egregiously impossible demand the central driver for the whole sordid mess?

Last edited 10 months ago by ben arnulfssen
Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
10 months ago

I wouldn’t call it the cult of identity as that covers any and all possible identities. I would call it the cult of the victim.

To claim an individual or a race or a sex or a gender identity is a victim then demands recognizing that victim or victim class has “rights” that need to be protected and advanced. As well, the alleged victim’s previous suffering and loss from that lack of protection may require various forms of legal protection and financial or other compensation from the alleged oppressors.

In this worldview either or both Republicans and Democrats can be victims, oppressors or rescuers who seek to right wrongs.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Roman

Claiming victim status is all the rage – Prince Harry, Meghan Markle and Donald Trump to name but three.

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Roman

Claiming victim status is all the rage – Prince Harry, Meghan Markle and Donald Trump to name but three.

Last edited 10 months ago by Clare Knight
Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
10 months ago

I wouldn’t call it the cult of identity as that covers any and all possible identities. I would call it the cult of the victim.

To claim an individual or a race or a sex or a gender identity is a victim then demands recognizing that victim or victim class has “rights” that need to be protected and advanced. As well, the alleged victim’s previous suffering and loss from that lack of protection may require various forms of legal protection and financial or other compensation from the alleged oppressors.

In this worldview either or both Republicans and Democrats can be victims, oppressors or rescuers who seek to right wrongs.

Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
10 months ago

I think the rot started to set in when someone decided that we could take the useful tool of a fictitious heaven or utopia and actually recreate it, within our lifetimes, on Earth.

Nice essay. Chimes with lots of recent discussions I’ve been having but falls into the trap of being a nihilistic and in need of answers as it’s subject matter. Change happens. Let’s see what we make of it and enjoy everything that life brings us in the meantime, good and bad.

Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
10 months ago

I think the rot started to set in when someone decided that we could take the useful tool of a fictitious heaven or utopia and actually recreate it, within our lifetimes, on Earth.

Nice essay. Chimes with lots of recent discussions I’ve been having but falls into the trap of being a nihilistic and in need of answers as it’s subject matter. Change happens. Let’s see what we make of it and enjoy everything that life brings us in the meantime, good and bad.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
10 months ago

“In this sense, the cult of identity is exceedingly utopian: believers judge established institutions against perfection, then reject the lot.”
Well said – that’s 2023 in a nutshell.
2 things to be wary of:
people with charismapeople with solutions

Last edited 10 months ago by Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
10 months ago

“In this sense, the cult of identity is exceedingly utopian: believers judge established institutions against perfection, then reject the lot.”
Well said – that’s 2023 in a nutshell.
2 things to be wary of:
people with charismapeople with solutions

Last edited 10 months ago by Frank McCusker
Jon Hawksley
Jon Hawksley
10 months ago

An interesting article. Before the sixties you were conditioned to a longstanding quite restrictive code of behaviour, broardly based on Christian values, with politics focussed on left/right views on the sharing of material resources. The sixties replaced conformity with the right to chose what you did, but still within Christian values, you could do what you wanted provided it did not hurt others. Reducing conformity removed barriers but over time it led to a sense of being entitled to whatever you wanted. The problem with a sense of entitlement is that it does not give a sense of fulfilment. Fulfilment comes from the pattern completion of accomplishing something by your own efforts – not being handed it on a plate.

Jon Hawksley
Jon Hawksley
10 months ago

An interesting article. Before the sixties you were conditioned to a longstanding quite restrictive code of behaviour, broardly based on Christian values, with politics focussed on left/right views on the sharing of material resources. The sixties replaced conformity with the right to chose what you did, but still within Christian values, you could do what you wanted provided it did not hurt others. Reducing conformity removed barriers but over time it led to a sense of being entitled to whatever you wanted. The problem with a sense of entitlement is that it does not give a sense of fulfilment. Fulfilment comes from the pattern completion of accomplishing something by your own efforts – not being handed it on a plate.

michael harris
michael harris
10 months ago

‘The historically underserved….’ Are they a tennis ball?
Perhaps so. Hit to and fro by grifters and academics.

Last edited 10 months ago by michael harris
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  michael harris

Or perhaps bartenders kept cutting them off abruptly?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Yuk, yuk good one

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Yuk, yuk good one

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  michael harris

Good one.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  michael harris

Or perhaps bartenders kept cutting them off abruptly?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago
Reply to  michael harris

Good one.

michael harris
michael harris
10 months ago

‘The historically underserved….’ Are they a tennis ball?
Perhaps so. Hit to and fro by grifters and academics.

Last edited 10 months ago by michael harris
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

For the most part, this article is just articulate exasperation. Those who’ve endured some of my comments know I’m not above that myself, but I’m just a commenter, and I request more from a Weekend Essay.
How does Gurri cut through “the psychotic jumble of first principles” he so aptly names? In substantial measure, our fractured and inundated state of global and epistemic affairs is idiosyncratic to our times yet new only in degree. This is well-stated: “Religion, patriotism, love of place and family — these are dead or dying options. Conservatism and liberalism, Right and Left, are tribal stickers detached from any serious content”…but when was this decidedly untrue for most? When the Bible was fed to a mostly illiterate populace in a language they couldn’t comprehend?
I actually don’t believe a “coherent set of ideas” will light a collective path out of our psychosis. Sure, more coherence and more separation from self-inundation is called for. But I think more courageous, nonviolent engagement with strange and opposing points of view–and more acceptance even of seemingly enemy pluralities–if they are themselves nonviolent and amenable to engagement and opposition (yeah, a big if) will help us more.
Though we could always stand to smarten up a bit and organize our thinking and all that, our deficits are not primarily intellectual, but dispositional and spiritual. This is something Gurri himself implies with his biblical references. But if your “conversion” to a single ideology or faith tradition–however coherent–involves intense hostility and fixed un-charitableness of mind to your real-or-perceived opponents, you might just be contributing to the general psychosis.
We don’t need more apathy, nor evasive blurring of essential limits, but most of us could stand to relax our reactive hackles a bit, treating the Other Side(s) with, if anything, more respect and benefit of the doubt than they’ve earned, since we’re probably gonna need that ourselves (again) before long. Golden Rule, as a rule.
In the character of Poor Richard, Ben Franklin aptly observed that “the Golden Age was never the present age”–and our times are no exception.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

For the most part, this article is just articulate exasperation. Those who’ve endured some of my comments know I’m not above that myself, but I’m just a commenter, and I request more from a Weekend Essay.
How does Gurri cut through “the psychotic jumble of first principles” he so aptly names? In substantial measure, our fractured and inundated state of global and epistemic affairs is idiosyncratic to our times yet new only in degree. This is well-stated: “Religion, patriotism, love of place and family — these are dead or dying options. Conservatism and liberalism, Right and Left, are tribal stickers detached from any serious content”…but when was this decidedly untrue for most? When the Bible was fed to a mostly illiterate populace in a language they couldn’t comprehend?
I actually don’t believe a “coherent set of ideas” will light a collective path out of our psychosis. Sure, more coherence and more separation from self-inundation is called for. But I think more courageous, nonviolent engagement with strange and opposing points of view–and more acceptance even of seemingly enemy pluralities–if they are themselves nonviolent and amenable to engagement and opposition (yeah, a big if) will help us more.
Though we could always stand to smarten up a bit and organize our thinking and all that, our deficits are not primarily intellectual, but dispositional and spiritual. This is something Gurri himself implies with his biblical references. But if your “conversion” to a single ideology or faith tradition–however coherent–involves intense hostility and fixed un-charitableness of mind to your real-or-perceived opponents, you might just be contributing to the general psychosis.
We don’t need more apathy, nor evasive blurring of essential limits, but most of us could stand to relax our reactive hackles a bit, treating the Other Side(s) with, if anything, more respect and benefit of the doubt than they’ve earned, since we’re probably gonna need that ourselves (again) before long. Golden Rule, as a rule.
In the character of Poor Richard, Ben Franklin aptly observed that “the Golden Age was never the present age”–and our times are no exception.

Emre S
Emre S
10 months ago

I see today’s struggle in America in fairly simple terms. These are the people who left Europe 400 years to create their full-blown utopia, their shining city on the hill – no less ambitious than the Bolsheviks. 400 years on and they find themselves at the bottom of the pile with their wrongdoing considering Atlantic trade and slavery ranking only above the Nah-seas in the eyes of many. That disappointment will certainly sap the energy of the Americans. I see a society that’s desperately struggling to be pure and holy again and regain the determined spirit of 400 years ago, though I don’t think anti-racism, equity and wokeism will bring that back.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Emre S

Those terms are just too simple. The Puritans who sought to create a theocratic utopia for kneeling non-conformists are the ancestors of only a sliver of Americans, albeit an influential one.
Americans are not one thing, despite their conformist/revolutionary tendencies. 330 million of us, many divided into warring factions, but the majority are not so bellicose. No only will the Woke Mob not “restore” an American unity that never existed, they will never capture a majority of American public opinion or voters.
However, if given a (seemingly binary) choice between Nostalgic Chaos and Utopian Chaos…mobs could align themselves accordingly. The society I see from inside a California city is indeed in desperate struggle, but for cohesion and purpose, not holiness and purity. Most Americans are not that simple or zealous. (Admittedly, some are; so are what I estimate to be a smaller minority of the British).
Do you feel a personal, strong inheritance from the Imperial society of the mid-19th century? How about the Christian-plated paganism of Beowulf, from the early Middle Ages?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Emre S

Those terms are just too simple. The Puritans who sought to create a theocratic utopia for kneeling non-conformists are the ancestors of only a sliver of Americans, albeit an influential one.
Americans are not one thing, despite their conformist/revolutionary tendencies. 330 million of us, many divided into warring factions, but the majority are not so bellicose. No only will the Woke Mob not “restore” an American unity that never existed, they will never capture a majority of American public opinion or voters.
However, if given a (seemingly binary) choice between Nostalgic Chaos and Utopian Chaos…mobs could align themselves accordingly. The society I see from inside a California city is indeed in desperate struggle, but for cohesion and purpose, not holiness and purity. Most Americans are not that simple or zealous. (Admittedly, some are; so are what I estimate to be a smaller minority of the British).
Do you feel a personal, strong inheritance from the Imperial society of the mid-19th century? How about the Christian-plated paganism of Beowulf, from the early Middle Ages?

Emre S
Emre S
10 months ago

I see today’s struggle in America in fairly simple terms. These are the people who left Europe 400 years to create their full-blown utopia, their shining city on the hill – no less ambitious than the Bolsheviks. 400 years on and they find themselves at the bottom of the pile with their wrongdoing considering Atlantic trade and slavery ranking only above the Nah-seas in the eyes of many. That disappointment will certainly sap the energy of the Americans. I see a society that’s desperately struggling to be pure and holy again and regain the determined spirit of 400 years ago, though I don’t think anti-racism, equity and wokeism will bring that back.

Richard Kurth
Richard Kurth
10 months ago

Equity as Sodom’s bed, with the reassertive elites holding the tape measure?

Richard Kurth
Richard Kurth
10 months ago

Equity as Sodom’s bed, with the reassertive elites holding the tape measure?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

That was style over substance. Paid by the word?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
10 months ago

That was style over substance. Paid by the word?

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
10 months ago

It’s true, this article offers no hope. It’s true, this article is all over the place conceptually. But it purports to be nothing other than a cry of despair, and that’s enough for me right now. Sometimes, I get tired of reading about one political party after another, one election after another, one policy after another, one outrage after another. Maybe we have to hit rock bottom emotionally and “own” that pain before we can think clearly enough to find substantial sources of hope. Just a thought.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

As usual I appreciate your take, Paul, though it conflicts with my own long-post critique. The article is sincere, emerging from our zeitgeist and occasioning some interesting comments. That’s better than nothing(ness).

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

This morning, AJ, I was emoting. I didn’t have time to analyze either the article or the comments carefully. But I didn’t see a great gulf between either of your comments and mine. Now, I’m not so sure. It’s past my bedtime and I’m very tired, but I won’t sleep well unless I try to reply.
You argue that the current state of affairs is “new only in degree.” Well, that would apply to almost anything except divine revelation—and Muslims would argue that even that has been repeated many times. Besides, what’s going on now is surely new in the relative terms of recent times. By that, I mean since the rise of modernity. At no time has the Western world been without ferment. In fact, restless exploration of the unknown has been among its most distinctive characteristics since the Enlightenment. So has a tendency toward fragmentation since the Reformation. But underlying both has always been—until now—enough unity to establish dynamic but also enduring societies. In this relative context, at least, the relentless conquest of one institution after another by a truly nihilistic ideology—one that not only replaces justice with revenge but also denies the existence of objective truth (and thus the point of at least seeking it)—really is new. The only Western parallel to this collapse of civilization, of any foundation for civilization, is probably the more gradual decline of Rome. St. Augustine of Hippo read the signs of his times correctly. Roman civilization was over, but the seeds of a new one could be planted on foreign soil no matter how remote in time and space. He could make that claim, only because he believed that the Church would become a new Noah’s Ark. Where, asks Gurri with good reason, is ours?
But Gurri might be going too far by lamenting the fact that all “options” are dead, and the wokers might be going too far by celebrating it. Humans are surprisingly resilient, because some features of human nature must be hard-wired. Even in the darkest of dark ages, for instance, people continued to live interdependently within families and clans. Even in the Nazi death camps, moreover, inmates continued to experience love, hope, compassion and self-sacrifice. At least a few of them actually celebrated religious festivals and experienced the presence of God in the midst of their suffering. Maybe this is the time par excellence to read their published letters, diaries and memoirs.
In your other comment, you overstate the chaotic or heterogeneity of American history. The seventeenth-century Puritans had no interest in “diversity” or “inclusion,” it’s true. They expected to build utopia in the wilderness, but they expected also to re-enter paradise beyond the flux and chaos of history). By the late eighteenth century, however, they had joined other colonists in founding a new (modern) nation on more practical foundations than orthodoxy and theocracy. The American founders valued reason and compromise enough to ensure that their institutions could endure despite human weaknesses. And many (though not enough) of them realized, even then, that slavery was an institution that exemplified the worst of all their obvious weaknesses. Moreover, the Founders feared mobocracy, the worst danger that’s inherent in democracy itself. And mobocracy is precisely what now threatens not only the country but also (due partly to American influence) the entire Western world.
You say that Americans now seek “cohesion and purpose, not holiness and purity.” First, every community, by definition, seeks cohesion and purpose. Moreover, I suspect that many Americans do indeed seek holiness (which they’ll never find, ironically, within their highly secularized churches). Woke Americans, on the other hand, do indeed seek purity (which is why they insist on doctrinal conformity along with the punishment or expulsion of heretics and infidels).
What a mess. But it’s bedtime, so the apocalypse will have to wait until tomorrow.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

You’re taking some of my remarks out of their intended context, Paul. In my brief reply to you, I was commenting on the difference between our overall assessment of Gurri’s article, which we’re (sort of) commenting on to begin with; you defended it, I criticized it. I can see your point about its break from the “same old politics” and its emotional resonance.
By the way, I don’t think emotion should be banished from rational discourse, though I do try to limit my tantrums (with partial success). This idea that Reason can only flourish in cold isolation from the gut and heart seems to me an absurd overreach, one slightly more typical of the sociopolitical right than the left.
My “other” comment (among many, too many really) frames two current extremes as chaotic, one utopian and one nostalgic: the Wokesters vs. the MAGA crowd. Simplistic? Yes. But did you read the comment I was responding to?
Of course American history and society are heterogeneous. It’s certainly possible to overstate or understate that, especially in one multi-pronged paragraph. What is more typical however–at least on a comment board–is to make America too conveniently one thing, whether fixated on holiness, material advancement, individualism, or community/ purpose (Though few would accuse us of being too communitarian! Conformist maybe). From the beginning there were dissenters from the Dissenters; aboard the Mayflower itself there were underlings or indentured servants, leaving aside about a million native North Americans that already lived on our shared (or contested) continent.
I don’t suppose those underlings who survived the first winter felt themselves to be part of the Special Elect in the same way that the Bradfords or Mathers did. Before God, perhaps, but not while sitting in the back row of the church or being treated like a virtual slave, as indentured servants were in many households.
Sure, many Americans are fixated holiness or purity–especially at the far-far Left and far-far Right. But I don’t think that’s a majority of Americans, Californians, or residents of San Jose (my current location). Nor is that fixation something uniquely American of course, though it might, with some fairness, be called characteristically American.
I’m not in agreement with the level of novelty you assign to the denial of objective truth. “What is truth, said jesting Pilate, and would not stay for an answer” (Francis Bacon, early 1600s). Wasn’t Nietzsche (1844-1900) a nihilist? Epistemic vacuity and radical skepticism is more widespread or metastasized now, but it is not new, and not confined to the far left. There is plenty of nihilism or emptiness at the center of the extreme American right, where some self-styled “conservatives” (or whatever they call themselves) want to burn it all down or conduct a violent purge in order to Make it Great Again.
However, living in America, among Americans, and having just finished a long stretch in academia as a student and student-teacher, I think the hardcore Wokesters are in the decided minority, even among those under 25. What is your sense of things “up there” in Canada? When I visited in September, I didn’t get the sense that my birth province of Alberta, with its oil money and cowboy culture, was overrun by zealots on either side, though one of my cousins has gone “plandemic”, almost “Trudeau and Biden are lizard people” these days.
In any case, let’s postpone the apocalypse until the day after tomorrow at the earliest.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Sorry that I seem to have taken your remarks out of context. As usual, AJ, you and I will turn out the lights before leaving! Your comments are always interesting and sometimes provocative, which is why I like to go down some of the byways–that is, beyond the original context of an article.
Nihilism is a difficult notion to discuss, because it makes no sense to anyone except the suicidal. Hitler, at the very end, might well have become nihilistic; most former Nazis, however, wanted very much to get on with their lives under one of the new regimes. As for Pilate, I’m not sure that he was nihilistic. His often-quoted line itself could be understood as “nihilistic” if taken out of its political context, but I think that “cynicism” (in the modern sense) would be a better word in his case than “nihilism.” He was a powerful agent of the Roman Empire, after all, and had no interest in bringing it all down (at least not according to the gospels). For him, the gospel implies, truth not an illusion but power.
And yet the later empire might well have produced some nihilism along with the pervasive cynicism. That’s the parallel that might apply to wokism: the rage-induced sense that truth, justice, beauty, compassion, holiness are all illusions and thus suitable only for an orgy of destruction and self-destruction. If it were otherwise, they would surely produce some vision of utopia, no matter how rudimentary or hypothetical. I mean, even Marx did that. But they haven’t. Wokism is a secular religion in some ways, as many people have noted (and I must include myself), but not in all ways. Remarkably absent is a sine qua non of any religion, even fundamentalist religion, which is the possibility of atonement, redemption, or grace. As I see it after a few years of dismal research, wokism is about naked power in the service of revenge. Destruction is an end in itself. If that isn’t nihilistic, then nothing is. That’s a very high bar for measuring nihilism in history.
I don’t understand why you classify our “two current extremes as chaotic, one utopian and one nostalgic. Assuming that wokism is utopian (and I think that its not utopian at all but nihilistic), why would any utopia be chaotic? For that matter, why is nostalgia chaotic? You could be correct in both cases, but I don’t follow your reasoning. In my field, we generally see chaos as the opposite of cosmos (order). The notions of both utopia (paradise in the remote future within time) and nostalgia (paradise in the remote past, or also in the remote future, but beyond time) are clearly the products of culture and therefore of order. Maybe you and I use different vocabularies.
I don’t live in the States, of course, so I can hardly have your insight into the collective mentality of San Jose or anywhere else in that country. But I don’t really care about typical features of American life at any particular time or place. I do care, though, about what you call “characteristic” features of the American collective mentality through history. Some themes stand out.
One of them, as you say, is individualism. But even that, in the eighteenth century and the early nineteenth, was quite different from what it is now. For Jefferson, individualism did not mean license or hedonism. On the contrary, it was deeply embedded in a context of communal duty.
Similarly, though, holiness has been a characteristic feature of the American collective mentality. From the very beginning, people have seen the landscape itself as the venue of holiness or the transcendent, which were not necessarily to be found in church buildings. This was a New World, a new Eden, a theme recurs not only in seventeenth-century sermons (Jonathan Edwards) but also in eighteenth- and nineteenth-century painting (Edward Hicks and The Peaceable Kingdom, the Hudson River school of landscape painting, the Luminists and so on), nineteenth-century philosophy (Ralph Waldo Emerson and the Transcendentalists), twentieth-century photography (Ansel Adams) and cinematography (John Ford and, yes, symbolically encoded, albeit with very different connotations, in both The Wizard of Oz and Gone with the Wind). In fact, the story that Americans have long told about themselves emerges directly from the Judeo-Christian myth of return to origin. I won’t go on and on about this here, because I wrote a book about it: Over the Rainbow: The Wizard of Oz as a Secular Myth of America (State University of New York Press, 1991).
I do hope that you’re correct in saying that the wokers are not taking over the world as zombies or body-snatchers! My personality is lamentably pessimistic, but I like to be goaded into optimism! Thank you for that, AJ. We really must meet someday.
By the way, I agree wholeheartedly that both “Trudeau and Biden are lizard people.” A pox on both their houses.

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Nathanson
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

Haha! I’m still taking all of this in, but I have to applaud your prodigious reply. I think it’s best to roll most of this rolling exchange over and call it a good “afterparty”. But before the lights get cut…
Chaotic in the sense of disruptive–utopian or revolutionary frameworks willing to embrace violence and disorder, as many are–on both the left and right. The right is far more subject to the delusion of (selective) Nostalgia, the left of (reckless) Progress. But my terms, admittedly, we’re not clear and should be improved.
I regard you as highly intelligent and quite learned in your areas of expertise, and estimate you know many things about America that I don’t, especially when taking an historical long view.
By the way, do you trust A Short History of Canada by Desmond Morton? My Alberta uncle recommended it, but he is far to the left of me and I wonder what I might be getting into.
So much for the “brief” reply! I’d be delighted to meet you someday, Paul.

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I don’t know that book, AJ, because I have no interest in Canadian history. It’s all about institutions. American history, by contrast, is about ideas. Amazon reviews say that the book is primarily about Canadian political history, moreover, and I have little interest in political conflicts unless they’re over matters of moral significance.
You can reach me at [email protected]

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I don’t know that book, AJ, because I have no interest in Canadian history. It’s all about institutions. American history, by contrast, is about ideas. Amazon reviews say that the book is primarily about Canadian political history, moreover, and I have little interest in political conflicts unless they’re over matters of moral significance.
You can reach me at [email protected]

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

Haha! I’m still taking all of this in, but I have to applaud your prodigious reply. I think it’s best to roll most of this rolling exchange over and call it a good “afterparty”. But before the lights get cut…
Chaotic in the sense of disruptive–utopian or revolutionary frameworks willing to embrace violence and disorder, as many are–on both the left and right. The right is far more subject to the delusion of (selective) Nostalgia, the left of (reckless) Progress. But my terms, admittedly, we’re not clear and should be improved.
I regard you as highly intelligent and quite learned in your areas of expertise, and estimate you know many things about America that I don’t, especially when taking an historical long view.
By the way, do you trust A Short History of Canada by Desmond Morton? My Alberta uncle recommended it, but he is far to the left of me and I wonder what I might be getting into.
So much for the “brief” reply! I’d be delighted to meet you someday, Paul.

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Sorry that I seem to have taken your remarks out of context. As usual, AJ, you and I will turn out the lights before leaving! Your comments are always interesting and sometimes provocative, which is why I like to go down some of the byways–that is, beyond the original context of an article.
Nihilism is a difficult notion to discuss, because it makes no sense to anyone except the suicidal. Hitler, at the very end, might well have become nihilistic; most former Nazis, however, wanted very much to get on with their lives under one of the new regimes. As for Pilate, I’m not sure that he was nihilistic. His often-quoted line itself could be understood as “nihilistic” if taken out of its political context, but I think that “cynicism” (in the modern sense) would be a better word in his case than “nihilism.” He was a powerful agent of the Roman Empire, after all, and had no interest in bringing it all down (at least not according to the gospels). For him, the gospel implies, truth not an illusion but power.
And yet the later empire might well have produced some nihilism along with the pervasive cynicism. That’s the parallel that might apply to wokism: the rage-induced sense that truth, justice, beauty, compassion, holiness are all illusions and thus suitable only for an orgy of destruction and self-destruction. If it were otherwise, they would surely produce some vision of utopia, no matter how rudimentary or hypothetical. I mean, even Marx did that. But they haven’t. Wokism is a secular religion in some ways, as many people have noted (and I must include myself), but not in all ways. Remarkably absent is a sine qua non of any religion, even fundamentalist religion, which is the possibility of atonement, redemption, or grace. As I see it after a few years of dismal research, wokism is about naked power in the service of revenge. Destruction is an end in itself. If that isn’t nihilistic, then nothing is. That’s a very high bar for measuring nihilism in history.
I don’t understand why you classify our “two current extremes as chaotic, one utopian and one nostalgic. Assuming that wokism is utopian (and I think that its not utopian at all but nihilistic), why would any utopia be chaotic? For that matter, why is nostalgia chaotic? You could be correct in both cases, but I don’t follow your reasoning. In my field, we generally see chaos as the opposite of cosmos (order). The notions of both utopia (paradise in the remote future within time) and nostalgia (paradise in the remote past, or also in the remote future, but beyond time) are clearly the products of culture and therefore of order. Maybe you and I use different vocabularies.
I don’t live in the States, of course, so I can hardly have your insight into the collective mentality of San Jose or anywhere else in that country. But I don’t really care about typical features of American life at any particular time or place. I do care, though, about what you call “characteristic” features of the American collective mentality through history. Some themes stand out.
One of them, as you say, is individualism. But even that, in the eighteenth century and the early nineteenth, was quite different from what it is now. For Jefferson, individualism did not mean license or hedonism. On the contrary, it was deeply embedded in a context of communal duty.
Similarly, though, holiness has been a characteristic feature of the American collective mentality. From the very beginning, people have seen the landscape itself as the venue of holiness or the transcendent, which were not necessarily to be found in church buildings. This was a New World, a new Eden, a theme recurs not only in seventeenth-century sermons (Jonathan Edwards) but also in eighteenth- and nineteenth-century painting (Edward Hicks and The Peaceable Kingdom, the Hudson River school of landscape painting, the Luminists and so on), nineteenth-century philosophy (Ralph Waldo Emerson and the Transcendentalists), twentieth-century photography (Ansel Adams) and cinematography (John Ford and, yes, symbolically encoded, albeit with very different connotations, in both The Wizard of Oz and Gone with the Wind). In fact, the story that Americans have long told about themselves emerges directly from the Judeo-Christian myth of return to origin. I won’t go on and on about this here, because I wrote a book about it: Over the Rainbow: The Wizard of Oz as a Secular Myth of America (State University of New York Press, 1991).
I do hope that you’re correct in saying that the wokers are not taking over the world as zombies or body-snatchers! My personality is lamentably pessimistic, but I like to be goaded into optimism! Thank you for that, AJ. We really must meet someday.
By the way, I agree wholeheartedly that both “Trudeau and Biden are lizard people.” A pox on both their houses.

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Nathanson
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

You’re taking some of my remarks out of their intended context, Paul. In my brief reply to you, I was commenting on the difference between our overall assessment of Gurri’s article, which we’re (sort of) commenting on to begin with; you defended it, I criticized it. I can see your point about its break from the “same old politics” and its emotional resonance.
By the way, I don’t think emotion should be banished from rational discourse, though I do try to limit my tantrums (with partial success). This idea that Reason can only flourish in cold isolation from the gut and heart seems to me an absurd overreach, one slightly more typical of the sociopolitical right than the left.
My “other” comment (among many, too many really) frames two current extremes as chaotic, one utopian and one nostalgic: the Wokesters vs. the MAGA crowd. Simplistic? Yes. But did you read the comment I was responding to?
Of course American history and society are heterogeneous. It’s certainly possible to overstate or understate that, especially in one multi-pronged paragraph. What is more typical however–at least on a comment board–is to make America too conveniently one thing, whether fixated on holiness, material advancement, individualism, or community/ purpose (Though few would accuse us of being too communitarian! Conformist maybe). From the beginning there were dissenters from the Dissenters; aboard the Mayflower itself there were underlings or indentured servants, leaving aside about a million native North Americans that already lived on our shared (or contested) continent.
I don’t suppose those underlings who survived the first winter felt themselves to be part of the Special Elect in the same way that the Bradfords or Mathers did. Before God, perhaps, but not while sitting in the back row of the church or being treated like a virtual slave, as indentured servants were in many households.
Sure, many Americans are fixated holiness or purity–especially at the far-far Left and far-far Right. But I don’t think that’s a majority of Americans, Californians, or residents of San Jose (my current location). Nor is that fixation something uniquely American of course, though it might, with some fairness, be called characteristically American.
I’m not in agreement with the level of novelty you assign to the denial of objective truth. “What is truth, said jesting Pilate, and would not stay for an answer” (Francis Bacon, early 1600s). Wasn’t Nietzsche (1844-1900) a nihilist? Epistemic vacuity and radical skepticism is more widespread or metastasized now, but it is not new, and not confined to the far left. There is plenty of nihilism or emptiness at the center of the extreme American right, where some self-styled “conservatives” (or whatever they call themselves) want to burn it all down or conduct a violent purge in order to Make it Great Again.
However, living in America, among Americans, and having just finished a long stretch in academia as a student and student-teacher, I think the hardcore Wokesters are in the decided minority, even among those under 25. What is your sense of things “up there” in Canada? When I visited in September, I didn’t get the sense that my birth province of Alberta, with its oil money and cowboy culture, was overrun by zealots on either side, though one of my cousins has gone “plandemic”, almost “Trudeau and Biden are lizard people” these days.
In any case, let’s postpone the apocalypse until the day after tomorrow at the earliest.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

This morning, AJ, I was emoting. I didn’t have time to analyze either the article or the comments carefully. But I didn’t see a great gulf between either of your comments and mine. Now, I’m not so sure. It’s past my bedtime and I’m very tired, but I won’t sleep well unless I try to reply.
You argue that the current state of affairs is “new only in degree.” Well, that would apply to almost anything except divine revelation—and Muslims would argue that even that has been repeated many times. Besides, what’s going on now is surely new in the relative terms of recent times. By that, I mean since the rise of modernity. At no time has the Western world been without ferment. In fact, restless exploration of the unknown has been among its most distinctive characteristics since the Enlightenment. So has a tendency toward fragmentation since the Reformation. But underlying both has always been—until now—enough unity to establish dynamic but also enduring societies. In this relative context, at least, the relentless conquest of one institution after another by a truly nihilistic ideology—one that not only replaces justice with revenge but also denies the existence of objective truth (and thus the point of at least seeking it)—really is new. The only Western parallel to this collapse of civilization, of any foundation for civilization, is probably the more gradual decline of Rome. St. Augustine of Hippo read the signs of his times correctly. Roman civilization was over, but the seeds of a new one could be planted on foreign soil no matter how remote in time and space. He could make that claim, only because he believed that the Church would become a new Noah’s Ark. Where, asks Gurri with good reason, is ours?
But Gurri might be going too far by lamenting the fact that all “options” are dead, and the wokers might be going too far by celebrating it. Humans are surprisingly resilient, because some features of human nature must be hard-wired. Even in the darkest of dark ages, for instance, people continued to live interdependently within families and clans. Even in the Nazi death camps, moreover, inmates continued to experience love, hope, compassion and self-sacrifice. At least a few of them actually celebrated religious festivals and experienced the presence of God in the midst of their suffering. Maybe this is the time par excellence to read their published letters, diaries and memoirs.
In your other comment, you overstate the chaotic or heterogeneity of American history. The seventeenth-century Puritans had no interest in “diversity” or “inclusion,” it’s true. They expected to build utopia in the wilderness, but they expected also to re-enter paradise beyond the flux and chaos of history). By the late eighteenth century, however, they had joined other colonists in founding a new (modern) nation on more practical foundations than orthodoxy and theocracy. The American founders valued reason and compromise enough to ensure that their institutions could endure despite human weaknesses. And many (though not enough) of them realized, even then, that slavery was an institution that exemplified the worst of all their obvious weaknesses. Moreover, the Founders feared mobocracy, the worst danger that’s inherent in democracy itself. And mobocracy is precisely what now threatens not only the country but also (due partly to American influence) the entire Western world.
You say that Americans now seek “cohesion and purpose, not holiness and purity.” First, every community, by definition, seeks cohesion and purpose. Moreover, I suspect that many Americans do indeed seek holiness (which they’ll never find, ironically, within their highly secularized churches). Woke Americans, on the other hand, do indeed seek purity (which is why they insist on doctrinal conformity along with the punishment or expulsion of heretics and infidels).
What a mess. But it’s bedtime, so the apocalypse will have to wait until tomorrow.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

As usual I appreciate your take, Paul, though it conflicts with my own long-post critique. The article is sincere, emerging from our zeitgeist and occasioning some interesting comments. That’s better than nothing(ness).

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
10 months ago

It’s true, this article offers no hope. It’s true, this article is all over the place conceptually. But it purports to be nothing other than a cry of despair, and that’s enough for me right now. Sometimes, I get tired of reading about one political party after another, one election after another, one policy after another, one outrage after another. Maybe we have to hit rock bottom emotionally and “own” that pain before we can think clearly enough to find substantial sources of hope. Just a thought.

Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
10 months ago

Here’s my Narrative.
Back in the day the educated class arose and gave us the Enlightenment, that proposed that educated intellectuals were the best people and should direct traffic.
But with Marx, the idea arose that the educated class should Ally with the workers to fight the capitalists and bourgeoisie, because “immiseration.”
In our times this idea has become the saving religion that the educated are the Allies of all Oppressed Peoples in their fight against the White Oppressors.
Unfortunately the Allies have Made Things Worse, by destroying the family, and all kinds of organic social cooperation, and making Mascots of workers, women, blacks, LGBT with government largesse. And the educated class has midwifed the two biggest slave states in history.
The fact is that the Progressive God is Dead, and what follows is decadence, nihilism, the eternal recurrence of “Groundhog Day” described by the Prophet Nietzsche. Until the Revaluation of All Values.

Emre S
Emre S
10 months ago

You may find this conversation between Jordan Peterson and James Lindsay interesting which delves into the greater narrative of the Left and its origins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnrdyphape4

Last edited 10 months ago by Emre S
Emre S
Emre S
10 months ago

You may find this conversation between Jordan Peterson and James Lindsay interesting which delves into the greater narrative of the Left and its origins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnrdyphape4

Last edited 10 months ago by Emre S
Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
10 months ago

Here’s my Narrative.
Back in the day the educated class arose and gave us the Enlightenment, that proposed that educated intellectuals were the best people and should direct traffic.
But with Marx, the idea arose that the educated class should Ally with the workers to fight the capitalists and bourgeoisie, because “immiseration.”
In our times this idea has become the saving religion that the educated are the Allies of all Oppressed Peoples in their fight against the White Oppressors.
Unfortunately the Allies have Made Things Worse, by destroying the family, and all kinds of organic social cooperation, and making Mascots of workers, women, blacks, LGBT with government largesse. And the educated class has midwifed the two biggest slave states in history.
The fact is that the Progressive God is Dead, and what follows is decadence, nihilism, the eternal recurrence of “Groundhog Day” described by the Prophet Nietzsche. Until the Revaluation of All Values.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
10 months ago

Beautiful essay. To name the philosophical cul-de-sac that is the social justice and equity movement as if it were a coherent philosophy would be to do it far too much credit. It’s inventors, purveyors, and partisans are far too fragile by nature to do the soul searching and introspection that is required for the discipline of philosophy. Their wholesale rejection of religion and spirituality closes off another potential venue where they might find some solid philosophical purchase. They are, as this author correctly points out, the survivors and heirs to the fall of capital C Communism. Few seem to make this connection between the fact that the same places where support for communism was strongest, namely arts, entertainment, journalism, and academia also became strongholds for the cult of identity. There have been, as ever, many historical grievances both real and imagined between groups of people, whether those groups be based upon religion, nationality, race, familial descent, or whatever other arbitrary thing people have used to divide into ‘us’ vs. ‘them’. Marxist philosophy gave them a framework for looking at the world and a goal of converting the whole world to socialism. In this, despite Marx intending nothing of the sort, Communism became a de facto religion for anyone who found traditional options unappealing. Without that structure, without that goal, they have nothing left but the grievances themselves and the direct redress of those grievances, nonsensical and destructive though it be. They are forever tilting at whatever windmills to no ultimate purpose. I’m of the view that as a group they appear much larger and more relevant than they really are due to the opportunists using the movement for their own self-interests, namely corporations looking to win the approval of young people as customers/employees, politicians looking to win votes by holding up the identity cult purveyors as heroes or bogeymen depending on the district, and globalists of all stripes looking to distract people from a set of economic policies that systematically concentrate wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
10 months ago

Beautiful essay. To name the philosophical cul-de-sac that is the social justice and equity movement as if it were a coherent philosophy would be to do it far too much credit. It’s inventors, purveyors, and partisans are far too fragile by nature to do the soul searching and introspection that is required for the discipline of philosophy. Their wholesale rejection of religion and spirituality closes off another potential venue where they might find some solid philosophical purchase. They are, as this author correctly points out, the survivors and heirs to the fall of capital C Communism. Few seem to make this connection between the fact that the same places where support for communism was strongest, namely arts, entertainment, journalism, and academia also became strongholds for the cult of identity. There have been, as ever, many historical grievances both real and imagined between groups of people, whether those groups be based upon religion, nationality, race, familial descent, or whatever other arbitrary thing people have used to divide into ‘us’ vs. ‘them’. Marxist philosophy gave them a framework for looking at the world and a goal of converting the whole world to socialism. In this, despite Marx intending nothing of the sort, Communism became a de facto religion for anyone who found traditional options unappealing. Without that structure, without that goal, they have nothing left but the grievances themselves and the direct redress of those grievances, nonsensical and destructive though it be. They are forever tilting at whatever windmills to no ultimate purpose. I’m of the view that as a group they appear much larger and more relevant than they really are due to the opportunists using the movement for their own self-interests, namely corporations looking to win the approval of young people as customers/employees, politicians looking to win votes by holding up the identity cult purveyors as heroes or bogeymen depending on the district, and globalists of all stripes looking to distract people from a set of economic policies that systematically concentrate wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands.

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago

Huh? The sixties gave birth to this moment. You may thank the boomers and for my Gen X who took the worst lessons and ran with them and each successive gen runs further still.

Kat L
Kat L
10 months ago

Huh? The sixties gave birth to this moment. You may thank the boomers and for my Gen X who took the worst lessons and ran with them and each successive gen runs further still.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
10 months ago

I think we may be over-complicating all this. Isn’t identity politics what you get when middle class leftists get rich and no longer want to talk about money.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
10 months ago

I think we may be over-complicating all this. Isn’t identity politics what you get when middle class leftists get rich and no longer want to talk about money.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago

Which ‘God botherer’ flagged MATHEW 10:36?

ps. Some may recall it from the film ‘Breaker Morant’.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
10 months ago

I am surprised to find you quoting the Bible Charles.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago

As they say :“Every cloud has a silver lining” and for my part, I find the Bible has quite a few.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago

As they say :“Every cloud has a silver lining” and for my part, I find the Bible has quite a few.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
10 months ago

I am surprised to find you quoting the Bible Charles.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago

Which ‘God botherer’ flagged MATHEW 10:36?

ps. Some may recall it from the film ‘Breaker Morant’.

Victoria Cooper
Victoria Cooper
10 months ago

Neither man could boast being able to walk the halls of academia. And when ideology is on the wing, that is a good thing. Neither buy into it. The difference being Biden is a politician and will cave in to it. Trump is not, and won’t. He is the safer bet at the moment.

Victoria Cooper
Victoria Cooper
10 months ago

Neither man could boast being able to walk the halls of academia. And when ideology is on the wing, that is a good thing. Neither buy into it. The difference being Biden is a politician and will cave in to it. Trump is not, and won’t. He is the safer bet at the moment.

Stan Konwiser
Stan Konwiser
10 months ago

The foundation of human society is the need for collective protection against a perceived foe. In tribal cultures it was the extended family protecting itself against rival family tribes. The family concept expanded to common culture/property and ultimately formed governments to protect against common enemies.

The fall of the Soviet Union removed the Great Satan common enemy the Western World had been united against for 40 years after defeating Fascism in two World Wars.

The so-called peace dividend has been a boon to the global economy and the development of the multinational banking and corporate systems. The WEF (World Economic Forum)—formed in 1973—has coordinated that growth largely by pretending China was not a successor to the USSR.

However the WEF recognized the need for a common enemy. Thus climate change sprang from whole cloth as the ultimate existential threat to humanity that must be countered at all costs and sacrifices by the population.

Unfortunately this apparent victory of the West has not solved the societal ills of its citizens in spite of the growing wealth of the WEF members. Climate change is not an immediate enough threat to hold a restive, imbalanced society in check. So we have competing factions claiming influence and resources for their piece of the peace dividend. Add in social media to amplify those claims and the toxic stew of social discontent we are currently experiencing is the result.

A solution may come when the WEF can no longer pretend the CCP is a benign force and China emerges as a clear existential threat to the Western World.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stan Konwiser
Stan Konwiser
Stan Konwiser
10 months ago

The foundation of human society is the need for collective protection against a perceived foe. In tribal cultures it was the extended family protecting itself against rival family tribes. The family concept expanded to common culture/property and ultimately formed governments to protect against common enemies.

The fall of the Soviet Union removed the Great Satan common enemy the Western World had been united against for 40 years after defeating Fascism in two World Wars.

The so-called peace dividend has been a boon to the global economy and the development of the multinational banking and corporate systems. The WEF (World Economic Forum)—formed in 1973—has coordinated that growth largely by pretending China was not a successor to the USSR.

However the WEF recognized the need for a common enemy. Thus climate change sprang from whole cloth as the ultimate existential threat to humanity that must be countered at all costs and sacrifices by the population.

Unfortunately this apparent victory of the West has not solved the societal ills of its citizens in spite of the growing wealth of the WEF members. Climate change is not an immediate enough threat to hold a restive, imbalanced society in check. So we have competing factions claiming influence and resources for their piece of the peace dividend. Add in social media to amplify those claims and the toxic stew of social discontent we are currently experiencing is the result.

A solution may come when the WEF can no longer pretend the CCP is a benign force and China emerges as a clear existential threat to the Western World.

Last edited 10 months ago by Stan Konwiser
Frank Ott
Frank Ott
10 months ago

Really?

Last edited 10 months ago by Frank Ott
Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago

I find it impossible to tell if that was a brilliant analysis of the present situation or an Alan Sokal-style hoax. One would surely have to be an expert analyst oneself to be able to call it either way. It seems that there are plenty of those in the comments section.

Last edited 10 months ago by Keith Merrick
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago

There is equity when it comes to understanding the forces of the universe. When humans fail to understand them, people die, the sinking of the Titanic and explosion of the Challenger Space Shuttle being examples .

Michel Starenky
Michel Starenky
10 months ago

We should advocate justice for all – not diversity, not identity , not equity for a few.

Paul Blowers
Paul Blowers
9 months ago

This is one of the most incisive pieces of cultural criticism I’ve read in a long time. It nails it so far as American culture, in particular, is concerned. Nihilism actually can take on many faces. Give full rein to the self-appointed purveyors of “identity” and they will annihilate each other. There simply isn’t enough emotional or intellectual or cultural space in the room for them to dwell in utopian co-existence.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
10 months ago

Equity? as opposed to fixed- income or convertibles?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
10 months ago

ahh no.. the actors union?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
10 months ago

ahh no.. the actors union?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
10 months ago

Equity? as opposed to fixed- income or convertibles?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago

Okay.
This strikes me as a cri de coeur from someone who wishes to understand the world. It’s my opinion that he’s starting from the wrong place.
So let me start by saying there is no ‘right’ place. However, there is a place that comes from within. Forget religion, and its abandonment. Forget even, the idea that life has a meaning external to itself. The world has meaning; the meaning that each of us – as members of society, of humanity – ascribe to it.
This sense of loss of meaning encapsulated by this essay is entirely due to the initial loading of meaning onto something above us – the gods; and eventually, one god. This is where the problem started,
Of course there is no god. Of course, we wish there was. Of course, we feel discomfort with placing the value of our existence – i feel it as much as anyone else – within our own human limitations.
So, this essay. It speaks to the search for meaning. The political, societal ebb and flo is but a current manifestation of this human endeavour. I fully understand that some may disagree.
Meaning comes from within. We create it. Once this is recognised – accepted – all the world’s religions, creeds, philosophies – lose their impact. It’s not easy to accept that, but until we do, we’ll continue to struggle, as this author does.
It needn’t be this way. There is a spiritual journey we must undertake towards accepting our place in the universe.
Criticise if you must; but ask yourself – why are you afraid to confront the loss of meaning prescribed by others? Confront it – and live.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

While it may be a satisfactory path for you, you’re proselytizing atheism, asserted as a self-evident Truth: (“Of course”) in no way presents some reliable pathway to meaning for others. For many, it is a pathway to increased despair, and leads to the deification of things like Progress or Populism or Hedonism as substitute, secular dogmas.
I strongly agree that the primary and indispensable source is found within:

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)

(I’m not claiming the path–or “mirror”, or “lamp”–is monopolized by one or by any combination of faith traditions, just citing what seems to be an apt passage).
But your insistence on a hard separation between the spiritual and the religious is overstated and artificial, in my admittedly subjective view.
Life does have a meaning that exceeds the individual. One could call it Society, or Posterity–or to get even more abstract and breathy about it: Transcendence. I think you’d acknowledge at least a portion of this, but you seem to make all outward expressions of faith or references to a creator into external and superficial expressions only. For many, that is not the case: The ritual or spoken aspect of the faith is only the emanation or surface rippling of something far deeper.
Do you prescribe your own spiritual journey as the one true path for everyone else?

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

It’s not my way to prescribe what spiritual journey should be undertaken. To think that, is to misunderstand what i’ve written. I do, however, understand why people seek refuge in creeds and ideologies. This is the subject of the essay; people are entitled to disagree, but that simply leaves them in the midst of the dilemma. Quoting the bible takes us not a single step further beyond what has led to the current impasse.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve Murray
Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

No, we have forgotten the core message of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament. Without worshipping a kind, forgiving, but stern G*d, we fall into idolatry. Most people understand idolatry to mean the worship of idols like statuettes and pillars of rock, and it certainly includes those. But in a more spiritual sense, idolatry is the worship of worthless ideas, things, and people. Now that we are actively sawing away at our Christian roots, we are giving way to a world which values raw power over human kindness. Faith in a divine being offers us a way to elevate ourselves above the crude power grabs of those who practice identity politics by seeing the divine in everyone. Without it we risk devolving into the pagan practice of elevating one group at the expense of another, which is ultimately what identity politics is all about.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

You’ve identified the problem, but prescribe the solution that has failed us. I really can’t say this often enough – because the solution you prescribe has been rammed down people’s throats for so long that it’ll take a heck of a lot of rowing back from. That is the journey we should undertake; to disabuse ourselves of all creeds and ideologies. They’re not necessary, although i understand why many feel the need for adherence to one or the other.

Huw Parker
Huw Parker
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

‘ Now that we are actively sawing away at our Christian roots, we are giving way to a world which values raw power over human kindness.’
Are you familiar with the history of Christianity in the world? I’m not saying you’re wrong exactly, more that you’re about 10,000 years too late.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

I read an excellent book called ‘The Pursuit of the Millennium’ by a historian called Norman Cohn. It is about millenarian cults in Medieval Europe and the absolute anarchy created by large numbers of people full of faith and hope, convinced they were about to witness the second coming of Christ.
Much of the mayhem can be traced to the invention of the printing press in the mid 15th century and growing literacy, along with bibles in the vernacular.
The scale of the mayhem is truly staggering- thousands died. And yet they all had very vigorous spiritual lives. I like to think of this when I see all this woke nonsense. I feel we are a contradiction to ourselves and the anarchy has always been in us. It just wears the mask of its time.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

In your opinion, is the God of the OT prevailingly stern & unpredictable, or kind & forgiving? I know it’s not one or the other–nor does it stay the same throughout–but I think we’re farther off track from the face-to-face, courageous love and forgiveness of Jesus than this YHWH of Exodus 20:5:

For I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

This punishing, judging dimension of Providence is one I sense no shortage of in our current world, Christian or not.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

You’ve identified the problem, but prescribe the solution that has failed us. I really can’t say this often enough – because the solution you prescribe has been rammed down people’s throats for so long that it’ll take a heck of a lot of rowing back from. That is the journey we should undertake; to disabuse ourselves of all creeds and ideologies. They’re not necessary, although i understand why many feel the need for adherence to one or the other.

Huw Parker
Huw Parker
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

‘ Now that we are actively sawing away at our Christian roots, we are giving way to a world which values raw power over human kindness.’
Are you familiar with the history of Christianity in the world? I’m not saying you’re wrong exactly, more that you’re about 10,000 years too late.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

I read an excellent book called ‘The Pursuit of the Millennium’ by a historian called Norman Cohn. It is about millenarian cults in Medieval Europe and the absolute anarchy created by large numbers of people full of faith and hope, convinced they were about to witness the second coming of Christ.
Much of the mayhem can be traced to the invention of the printing press in the mid 15th century and growing literacy, along with bibles in the vernacular.
The scale of the mayhem is truly staggering- thousands died. And yet they all had very vigorous spiritual lives. I like to think of this when I see all this woke nonsense. I feel we are a contradiction to ourselves and the anarchy has always been in us. It just wears the mask of its time.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

In your opinion, is the God of the OT prevailingly stern & unpredictable, or kind & forgiving? I know it’s not one or the other–nor does it stay the same throughout–but I think we’re farther off track from the face-to-face, courageous love and forgiveness of Jesus than this YHWH of Exodus 20:5:

For I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

This punishing, judging dimension of Providence is one I sense no shortage of in our current world, Christian or not.

Lewis Eliot
Lewis Eliot
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

… although John 20:25 might explain at least some of the mess we’ve found ourselves in.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

That’s fair. My post was a deliberate pushback on what I read as one in a ongoing series of generalized anti-religion posts on your part, instead of any targeted response to this article (itself a series of general observations).
You claim we create meaning, as if we are kind of auto-deity. While I see an element of truth in that, I would assert that we find meaning–if we’re able to.
I quoted the Bible in concurrence with a major aspect of your own post, also echoing the well-known aphorism: “there is no new thing under the sun”. If the name of the source text causes some automatic disagreement for you, that is understandable, but none of my doing.
While it is just a disagreement, rather than a resolvable dispute with one clear winner, I’ll end with a quote from the Liverpudlian Lads: “There’s nothin’ you can know that isn’t known / Nothin’ you can see that isn’t shown”.

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

No, we have forgotten the core message of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament. Without worshipping a kind, forgiving, but stern G*d, we fall into idolatry. Most people understand idolatry to mean the worship of idols like statuettes and pillars of rock, and it certainly includes those. But in a more spiritual sense, idolatry is the worship of worthless ideas, things, and people. Now that we are actively sawing away at our Christian roots, we are giving way to a world which values raw power over human kindness. Faith in a divine being offers us a way to elevate ourselves above the crude power grabs of those who practice identity politics by seeing the divine in everyone. Without it we risk devolving into the pagan practice of elevating one group at the expense of another, which is ultimately what identity politics is all about.

Lewis Eliot
Lewis Eliot
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

… although John 20:25 might explain at least some of the mess we’ve found ourselves in.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

That’s fair. My post was a deliberate pushback on what I read as one in a ongoing series of generalized anti-religion posts on your part, instead of any targeted response to this article (itself a series of general observations).
You claim we create meaning, as if we are kind of auto-deity. While I see an element of truth in that, I would assert that we find meaning–if we’re able to.
I quoted the Bible in concurrence with a major aspect of your own post, also echoing the well-known aphorism: “there is no new thing under the sun”. If the name of the source text causes some automatic disagreement for you, that is understandable, but none of my doing.
While it is just a disagreement, rather than a resolvable dispute with one clear winner, I’ll end with a quote from the Liverpudlian Lads: “There’s nothin’ you can know that isn’t known / Nothin’ you can see that isn’t shown”.

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Mathew 10:36.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

Conversion experiences do divide households. Good to give a cup of cold water to whoever asks though, especially a true disciple.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago

Conversion experiences do divide households. Good to give a cup of cold water to whoever asks though, especially a true disciple.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

It’s not my way to prescribe what spiritual journey should be undertaken. To think that, is to misunderstand what i’ve written. I do, however, understand why people seek refuge in creeds and ideologies. This is the subject of the essay; people are entitled to disagree, but that simply leaves them in the midst of the dilemma. Quoting the bible takes us not a single step further beyond what has led to the current impasse.

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve Murray
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Mathew 10:36.

Duane M
Duane M
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Meaning in human life does not come from within. It comes from our relationship to other humans. Look at the activities that people report as meaningful and you will see this. In fact, you said it yourself in the second paragraph.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

While it may be a satisfactory path for you, you’re proselytizing atheism, asserted as a self-evident Truth: (“Of course”) in no way presents some reliable pathway to meaning for others. For many, it is a pathway to increased despair, and leads to the deification of things like Progress or Populism or Hedonism as substitute, secular dogmas.
I strongly agree that the primary and indispensable source is found within:

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)

(I’m not claiming the path–or “mirror”, or “lamp”–is monopolized by one or by any combination of faith traditions, just citing what seems to be an apt passage).
But your insistence on a hard separation between the spiritual and the religious is overstated and artificial, in my admittedly subjective view.
Life does have a meaning that exceeds the individual. One could call it Society, or Posterity–or to get even more abstract and breathy about it: Transcendence. I think you’d acknowledge at least a portion of this, but you seem to make all outward expressions of faith or references to a creator into external and superficial expressions only. For many, that is not the case: The ritual or spoken aspect of the faith is only the emanation or surface rippling of something far deeper.
Do you prescribe your own spiritual journey as the one true path for everyone else?

Last edited 10 months ago by AJ Mac
Duane M
Duane M
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Meaning in human life does not come from within. It comes from our relationship to other humans. Look at the activities that people report as meaningful and you will see this. In fact, you said it yourself in the second paragraph.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
10 months ago

Okay.
This strikes me as a cri de coeur from someone who wishes to understand the world. It’s my opinion that he’s starting from the wrong place.
So let me start by saying there is no ‘right’ place. However, there is a place that comes from within. Forget religion, and its abandonment. Forget even, the idea that life has a meaning external to itself. The world has meaning; the meaning that each of us – as members of society, of humanity – ascribe to it.
This sense of loss of meaning encapsulated by this essay is entirely due to the initial loading of meaning onto something above us – the gods; and eventually, one god. This is where the problem started,
Of course there is no god. Of course, we wish there was. Of course, we feel discomfort with placing the value of our existence – i feel it as much as anyone else – within our own human limitations.
So, this essay. It speaks to the search for meaning. The political, societal ebb and flo is but a current manifestation of this human endeavour. I fully understand that some may disagree.
Meaning comes from within. We create it. Once this is recognised – accepted – all the world’s religions, creeds, philosophies – lose their impact. It’s not easy to accept that, but until we do, we’ll continue to struggle, as this author does.
It needn’t be this way. There is a spiritual journey we must undertake towards accepting our place in the universe.
Criticise if you must; but ask yourself – why are you afraid to confront the loss of meaning prescribed by others? Confront it – and live.

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
10 months ago

Martin Gurri is a former CIA analyst and the author of ‘The Revolt of the Public”’

FFS….. What nightmarish analysis does this guy turn in at work? Because since the Dulls Brothers the CIA has been on the wrong side of every issue from Flying in Heroin on ‘Air America, and cocaine and marijuana, and one could bet fentenal, and then flying out arms to heinous war lords – to assassinating Presidents at home and afar, and spoofing WMDs, and overthrowing Mosaddegh to Kadaffi, to Euromaidan , and spying at home and goosing elections and creating Facebook, PayPal, Google to create a Social Credit Score and monitor everyone, and owning FTX, likely, to move their money in and out of every corrupt place on the planet….to every corrupt political party and human trafficker, and owning Epstein and his black books inevitably, and god knows what with the political parties, Dems especially…

Anyway – if one of you waded through that nightmarish stream of consciousness bizarre rant – you deserve a prize, and maybe some PTSD counseling…..

Emil Castelli
Emil Castelli
10 months ago

Martin Gurri is a former CIA analyst and the author of ‘The Revolt of the Public”’

FFS….. What nightmarish analysis does this guy turn in at work? Because since the Dulls Brothers the CIA has been on the wrong side of every issue from Flying in Heroin on ‘Air America, and cocaine and marijuana, and one could bet fentenal, and then flying out arms to heinous war lords – to assassinating Presidents at home and afar, and spoofing WMDs, and overthrowing Mosaddegh to Kadaffi, to Euromaidan , and spying at home and goosing elections and creating Facebook, PayPal, Google to create a Social Credit Score and monitor everyone, and owning FTX, likely, to move their money in and out of every corrupt place on the planet….to every corrupt political party and human trafficker, and owning Epstein and his black books inevitably, and god knows what with the political parties, Dems especially…

Anyway – if one of you waded through that nightmarish stream of consciousness bizarre rant – you deserve a prize, and maybe some PTSD counseling…..

Ralph Hanke
Ralph Hanke
10 months ago

I think that opening paragraph is a straw man of the worst order. And who is that “we” the author speaks of? It certainly does not include my friends and I. Nor does it include the many students I have taught over the years. Or most of the people I talk to on a day to day basis.

I grant I am currently too lazy—and busy living a decent enough life—to rip the essay apart paragraph by paragraph. And so my trivial little commentary here probably deserves to be scoffed at. But I must say, I think the essay describes a world only a few people imagine exists. And within that echo chamber, I expect it resonates quite well.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
10 months ago
Reply to  Ralph Hanke

You must only engage with a select group of people then, and not with society in general. Nor do you apparently work at a modern woke corporation, who compels employees to take online DEI courses, designed by approved woke consulting companies. Nor must you have children who have recently graduated from a woke university and have been brainwashed into hating their country and their Christian parents, like I have. Good for you.

Last edited 10 months ago by Warren Trees
Rob C
Rob C
10 months ago
Reply to  Ralph Hanke

I, too, could “rip the essay apart” but for different reasons than you. It’s not about the world as it exists today but rather where the Equitarians want to take us.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
10 months ago
Reply to  Ralph Hanke

You must only engage with a select group of people then, and not with society in general. Nor do you apparently work at a modern woke corporation, who compels employees to take online DEI courses, designed by approved woke consulting companies. Nor must you have children who have recently graduated from a woke university and have been brainwashed into hating their country and their Christian parents, like I have. Good for you.

Last edited 10 months ago by Warren Trees
Rob C
Rob C
10 months ago
Reply to  Ralph Hanke

I, too, could “rip the essay apart” but for different reasons than you. It’s not about the world as it exists today but rather where the Equitarians want to take us.

Ralph Hanke
Ralph Hanke
10 months ago

I think that opening paragraph is a straw man of the worst order. And who is that “we” the author speaks of? It certainly does not include my friends and I. Nor does it include the many students I have taught over the years. Or most of the people I talk to on a day to day basis.

I grant I am currently too lazy—and busy living a decent enough life—to rip the essay apart paragraph by paragraph. And so my trivial little commentary here probably deserves to be scoffed at. But I must say, I think the essay describes a world only a few people imagine exists. And within that echo chamber, I expect it resonates quite well.