Main Edition
US
FR
Truman’s world no longer exists (Allen J. Schaben / Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)
Exactly 75 years ago, the foundation stone of the transatlantic relationship was laid. After the Marshall Plan was signed into law by President Harry S. Truman, the US would go on to send billions of dollars in economic assistance to help rebuild Western Europe after the Second World War, laying the groundwork for a mutually beneficial North Atlantic alliance that offered Europe several decades of economic prosperity and military security. America, the President claimed, would be “the first great nation to feed and support the conquered”.
Today, Truman’s world no longer exists. Indeed, the contrast between the Marshall Plan and America’s approach to Europe today couldn’t be more jarring. The Marshall Plan may still be regarded as one of the pillars of America’s post-war mythology, but under Biden, America is pursuing an isolationist economic policy and a ham-fisted foreign policy that both run counter to Europe’s vital interests. Moreover, the actual impact of the Marshall Plan is also worth reassessing.
In spite of the largesse and generosity usually associated with the European Recovery Program, as it was officially called, between 1948 and 1951 the funds actually only amounted to about 3% of the combined GDP of the recipient countries, accounting for a direct increase in GDP growth of less than 0.5%. Some authors have credited the Marshall Plan with having a much larger indirect effect on the recovery, through the promotion of a macroeconomic environment conducive to growth, but such analyses are largely speculative. Overall, its contribution to Europe’s recovery was relatively modest. Much of the money also flowed back to the US in the form of purchases of American goods and services, including oil, while many of the materials and equipment used to rebuild Europe were supplied by American companies, creating jobs and profits for American businesses.
Regardless of the actual economic impact of the Marshall Plan, there is no doubt that it was a resounding political success for America — to the extent that it secured US geopolitical influence and control over Western Europe. Part of the logic was that more prosperous societies would be less amenable to communist and Soviet influence — though, as we have seen, it’s questionable whether the programme had much of an impact on economic and social gains during the post-war boom.
An arguably more important channel through which the Marshall Plan consolidated US influence was through the funds it channelled to those European centre-right parties which stood to gain from being integrated into the nascent American empire. This included covert CIA funds to ensure their electoral success — especially in Italy and France — at the expense of communist rivals. As the historian Sallie Pisani shows in her book The CIA and the Marshall Plan, under the guise of the Marshall Plan, the US used “massive foreign aid and non-military covert operations to reshape war-torn Europe in the image of the US”.
Just as crucially, the Marshall Plan was also a key catalyst for the formation of Nato, through which the US exerted its military control over Western Europe — in addition to dozens of military bases, especially in the defeated nations, many of which still exist today. The Marshall Plan also played an important role in fostering European integration, by creating new intergovernmental institutions to administer and coordinate the programme. These included the OEEC, the precursor to the OECD, and most importantly the Schuman Plan, which led to the European Coal and Steel Community, then the European Economic Community and ultimately the European Union. The Americans also played a crucial role in promoting, also financially, the cause of European federalism through the American Committee on United Europe (ACUE), founded in 1948, whose first chairman was the former head of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) William Joseph Donovan. The vice-chairman was Allen Welsh Dulles, who would later become the head of the CIA.
Taken as a whole, then, the Marshall Plan appears to embody a form of “benevolent imperialism”, through which the US gained control over Western Europe and cemented its position as a global superpower, while also fostering, for much of the post-war period, economic prosperity and — at least until the end of the Soviet Union — military security on the continent. Europe clearly benefited from the spoils of empire, even if in a subordinate position.
Join the discussion
Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber
To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.
Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.
SubscribeThe author lost me when he included South Africa in the list of rising powers. The current government is on the verge of collapsing the state. Energy, transport and mining are on the verge of collapse due to rampant corruption. Another 10 years and SA will be another Chinese satrapy along with so many other African countries. Its past time for Europe to take on it’s own defence, something which has been shamefully neglected since the end of the Cold War especially by Germany.
South Africa – Zimbabwe 30 years ago.
Chinese satrapy tends not to involve prior regime change and prelminary carpet bombing so has a few advantages over US satrapy..
All ended after Brandon and his allies blew ul his allies pipelines
South Africa – Zimbabwe 30 years ago.
Chinese satrapy tends not to involve prior regime change and prelminary carpet bombing so has a few advantages over US satrapy..
All ended after Brandon and his allies blew ul his allies pipelines
The author lost me when he included South Africa in the list of rising powers. The current government is on the verge of collapsing the state. Energy, transport and mining are on the verge of collapse due to rampant corruption. Another 10 years and SA will be another Chinese satrapy along with so many other African countries. Its past time for Europe to take on it’s own defence, something which has been shamefully neglected since the end of the Cold War especially by Germany.
I am always suspicious of articles that reference accusations as substance, or self-reference the author’s own opinion as if it were a valid data point. Many of us in America are very troubled by Putin‘s invasion of Ukraine, despite it being far more vital to Western Europe‘s interests than our own.
Enough with this nonsense about American Empire, we spent a lot of blood and treasure to help stabilize Europe in the 1940s because it was ultimately in our interests to do so. There’s nothing wrong with countries acting in their own best interests, in fact it’s what our leaders are democratically elected (as opposed to those in Russia and China) to do.
Great. Just don’t expect europe to have those same interests. Besides the destruction of the pipelines (which might well have caused a permanent reduction in German output), there’s all the destabilising caused by American adventurism in North Africa and the Middle East. As well as that there’s the insanity of US ideologies like trans and anti whiteness (the latter being a clear disaster for European identity).
All of this is destabilising.
Europe doesn’t, but the EU clearly does.
Does what?
Does what?
Europe could have moved towards Solar Cells when President Jimmy Carter installed them on the White House roof on the 1970’s instead of damaging fossil fuels.
Let’s review what has happened historically where the US withdraws presence. A World where the US did not fight against the Germans? Sp the alternative is the failing destructive Russian life or oppressive China one think about Japan)? The handwriting is on the wall. Saudi Arabia for one has foolishly burned their oil putting the wealth at the top.
Healthy Humans insist on honest choice. Those that have no choice often settle for the illusion of control, sold with illusion. Let’s learn from the recent AI meltdowns to understand that collective action is powerful but needs checks. Unattended Big Data leads to disaster when it is one-way, top/down).
It also occurred to me how much trouble those countries which either ban religion or install one to power are messing up the world. The economic conflict instigated by the Russian Orthodox Church is unappreciated in Ukraine. There needs to be honest accounting.
Sophistry is the weapon. Corporations run on verbal deals, can be put on the shelf; the written contracts pretend while actions are behind closed doors. No need for continued nourishment or housing just dissolve and transfer the assets. When equated with People in Federal Rights, Corporations make the individual disappear. How absurd.
Without representation to the Central Government for each Individual, economic gears grind and rust and eventually stop turning in a global system. Originalism wants those rights to flow thru the States, stealing their profit. That is the brilliance of our US Bill of Rights – a direct say in the Central Controls. Without individual consent to be governed, the top will fall and faster than most will predict.
Solar cells – useless at night, and not green in manufacture in the first place.
Firstly, it was the Russians who defeated Nazi Germany with minor involvement from the West.. in the ratio of 20:1. The US arrived very late to mop up and ensure European indebtedness to US banks.
Secondly, Saudi Arabia has ceased doing the US’s bidding only because the USD/petrodollar is doomed.
American infrastructure is crumbling, US debt is unsustainable, US Militarism is put of control, US politics belong in Alice’s Wonderland and civil war is close.
Any country with a lick of sense is running a mile from the declining USD and from US hegemony and exceptionalism. A few are hanging on grimly, some hopeful in the face of hopelessness and most fearful of brutal reprisals.
Solar cells – useless at night, and not green in manufacture in the first place.
Firstly, it was the Russians who defeated Nazi Germany with minor involvement from the West.. in the ratio of 20:1. The US arrived very late to mop up and ensure European indebtedness to US banks.
Secondly, Saudi Arabia has ceased doing the US’s bidding only because the USD/petrodollar is doomed.
American infrastructure is crumbling, US debt is unsustainable, US Militarism is put of control, US politics belong in Alice’s Wonderland and civil war is close.
Any country with a lick of sense is running a mile from the declining USD and from US hegemony and exceptionalism. A few are hanging on grimly, some hopeful in the face of hopelessness and most fearful of brutal reprisals.
The first thing most European nations do is call for U.S. military forces to interfere, if there is a conflict or civil war taking place in Europe (also in the aftermath of the break up of Yugoslavia), because they don’t have proper military forces themselves. Right now the Green/Socialists in Germany are the fiercest war mongers, after they tried for decades to cut the German defence budget. The irony is that the current German Chancellor very reluctantly parts with their meagre military equipment, but calls on everybody else to help.
There is still no iron clad prove, that the destruction of the gas pipeline was done by the U.S. Also the German leftist government cut itself off Russian gas supply, long before the explosions happened. You don’t need to have any pity for the German reduction of industrial output as they are doing enough destruction themselves, deindustrialising their country with their radical Green agenda.
I agree that the US had too many “adventures” in the Middle East and the leftists‘ trans and anti whiteness cults there are insane. But it seems the Europeans happily picked up this cultish behaviour. Look at leading British politicians bending their knees to BLM and getting themselves twisted in all the trans issues.
You forget: this is not a Europe v Russia war, this is a NATO, ie USA v Russia proxy war.. so I as a European say to you: fight your wars and stay the hell out if Europe! Everywhere you go death and destruction is all you bring, unlike China and Russia that have never invaded other nations, nor enslaved their people, nor bombed them into oblivion like the US has done 50+ times in the last 30 years with a death toll of 6 million and counting!
Btw. I am a European too…
In your opinion it is not a European /Russian war? But European governments are begging the US to interfere. Finland just joined NATO ( both Socialists and Conservatives agreed for once on this policy) Eastern European countries couldn’t wait to join NATO after the fall of the wall. Most of its peoples have a historical fear of Russia. I have Eastern European relatives and therefore know enough of their loathing of the historic behaviour of the Russian “Empire” towards Eastern Europe.
Btw. I am a European too…
In your opinion it is not a European /Russian war? But European governments are begging the US to interfere. Finland just joined NATO ( both Socialists and Conservatives agreed for once on this policy) Eastern European countries couldn’t wait to join NATO after the fall of the wall. Most of its peoples have a historical fear of Russia. I have Eastern European relatives and therefore know enough of their loathing of the historic behaviour of the Russian “Empire” towards Eastern Europe.
You forget: this is not a Europe v Russia war, this is a NATO, ie USA v Russia proxy war.. so I as a European say to you: fight your wars and stay the hell out if Europe! Everywhere you go death and destruction is all you bring, unlike China and Russia that have never invaded other nations, nor enslaved their people, nor bombed them into oblivion like the US has done 50+ times in the last 30 years with a death toll of 6 million and counting!
Europe doesn’t, but the EU clearly does.
Europe could have moved towards Solar Cells when President Jimmy Carter installed them on the White House roof on the 1970’s instead of damaging fossil fuels.
Let’s review what has happened historically where the US withdraws presence. A World where the US did not fight against the Germans? Sp the alternative is the failing destructive Russian life or oppressive China one think about Japan)? The handwriting is on the wall. Saudi Arabia for one has foolishly burned their oil putting the wealth at the top.
Healthy Humans insist on honest choice. Those that have no choice often settle for the illusion of control, sold with illusion. Let’s learn from the recent AI meltdowns to understand that collective action is powerful but needs checks. Unattended Big Data leads to disaster when it is one-way, top/down).
It also occurred to me how much trouble those countries which either ban religion or install one to power are messing up the world. The economic conflict instigated by the Russian Orthodox Church is unappreciated in Ukraine. There needs to be honest accounting.
Sophistry is the weapon. Corporations run on verbal deals, can be put on the shelf; the written contracts pretend while actions are behind closed doors. No need for continued nourishment or housing just dissolve and transfer the assets. When equated with People in Federal Rights, Corporations make the individual disappear. How absurd.
Without representation to the Central Government for each Individual, economic gears grind and rust and eventually stop turning in a global system. Originalism wants those rights to flow thru the States, stealing their profit. That is the brilliance of our US Bill of Rights – a direct say in the Central Controls. Without individual consent to be governed, the top will fall and faster than most will predict.
The first thing most European nations do is call for U.S. military forces to interfere, if there is a conflict or civil war taking place in Europe (also in the aftermath of the break up of Yugoslavia), because they don’t have proper military forces themselves. Right now the Green/Socialists in Germany are the fiercest war mongers, after they tried for decades to cut the German defence budget. The irony is that the current German Chancellor very reluctantly parts with their meagre military equipment, but calls on everybody else to help.
There is still no iron clad prove, that the destruction of the gas pipeline was done by the U.S. Also the German leftist government cut itself off Russian gas supply, long before the explosions happened. You don’t need to have any pity for the German reduction of industrial output as they are doing enough destruction themselves, deindustrialising their country with their radical Green agenda.
I agree that the US had too many “adventures” in the Middle East and the leftists‘ trans and anti whiteness cults there are insane. But it seems the Europeans happily picked up this cultish behaviour. Look at leading British politicians bending their knees to BLM and getting themselves twisted in all the trans issues.
I am not sure it was the Marshall Plan that was the enabler, although it was a stimulus. The US pact was protecting free trade for all who aligned with the US security model. The US acted in its own interests which aligned with the rest of Europe with the spectre of the USSR and nuclear war hanging over it. The way that this model has enabled globalism might have been an unintended consequence that has been regrettable.
…or of course it might have been the plan all along. Sometimes the simple, obvious, clear option is the correct one.. especially when all the evidence points in that direction! Duh..
…or of course it might have been the plan all along. Sometimes the simple, obvious, clear option is the correct one.. especially when all the evidence points in that direction! Duh..
The US is not a democracy – it is an oligarchy. Oh yes, the people have a vote but only after all candidates with even the faintest hope of securing power are carefully vetted by Big Money (the oligarchy). The power of the oligarchy was massively increased in 2010 when the Supreme Court ruled 5:4 in favour of allowing large corporations the freedom to finance political campaigns – thus making it virtually impossible for alternative candidates to match the almost unlimited funding available from the oligarchy for their pre-vetted candidates.
So in reality it’s much the same as Russia or China – except, of course, that there are more people incarcerated per capita in the US than in either Russia or China.
Politics in the US is pure theatre with the script written by the Koch brothers et al.
“The US is not a democracy – it is an oligarchy.”
“the Supreme Court ruled 5:4 in favour of allowing large corporations the freedom to finance political campaigns”
“it’s much the same as Russia or China”
“Koch brothers et al”
I’m sure we’ve all met people who talk like this and wished we could help.
Sadly the type of help we can offer is not the medical kind.
Sadly the type of help we can offer is not the medical kind.
You really believe that the US is the same as Russia and China and offers the same quality of life, opportunity and justice system? Have you ever been to Russia or China or read about the frequent disappearances and failed flying attempts out of high rise buildings?
Ahh yes. The good ole Koch brothers. The one and only family that the left can still use to counter the serious billionaires on the left, who represent the plank in your eye.
It’s not just the Koch brothers there is so many disgustingly wealthy that we don’t know about, who pour money into elections on both sides making it impossible for a candidate who is not self-serving to win. It’s quite hopeless.
It’s not just the Koch brothers there is so many disgustingly wealthy that we don’t know about, who pour money into elections on both sides making it impossible for a candidate who is not self-serving to win. It’s quite hopeless.
This is correct. And just as US Big Pharma profited from the not-a-pandemic, so the US Arms Industry is profiting from the war in Ukraine.
They both have more than enough reason as sinful and greedy people to want both to continue as long as possible. Which is desperately sad for the people of Ukraine.
The difference is that the US is 90% responsible for Big Pharma/NIAID/GDA/Chapel Hill manipulation of the planet’s health (Wuhan gets the other 10%) whereas the US defence industry can thank Putin without taking any real credit.
The difference is that the US is 90% responsible for Big Pharma/NIAID/GDA/Chapel Hill manipulation of the planet’s health (Wuhan gets the other 10%) whereas the US defence industry can thank Putin without taking any real credit.
Hurrah! You have put into words exactly what I have always thought. America may have (roughly) the same language as us but they are nothing like us (or other western democracies) with their skewed electoral and voting system, political court justice. biased sentencing,and all-powerful Head of State.
But worse than that, they will lead us into another world war.through their dominant position in NATO. .
Question: would you rather live in China/Russia or in the US? Because you are writing pretty simple stuff here…
The poster may not be making the most artful of arguments but it’s supported by the data and research. There’s a couple of relevant studies but Page & Gilens, Northwestern & Princeton, I remember. They reviewed 20 yrs of public opinion surveys of proposed legislation or policy changes. Selecting only surveys including respondents income, the answers of medium income voters were used to represent average citizens and the 90th %tile income respondents to represent economic elites. A third group of special interests, lobbyists & industries created and their positions on the legislation/policies was compiled and included.
What they found was average citizens only get what they want when it coincides with the preferences of the elites & interest groups. 90% of America has virtually no effect on policy. https://bit.ly/3U4xPAL
He’s not wrong on campaign finance either, but it’s complex, you can research it for detail but briefly: early 2000 McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform act passed. Citizens United, a conservative nonprofit sought an injunction to be exempted from one section. It made it’s way to SCOTUS in 2010 which went way broader in it’s consideration than the original petition and effectively said political spending is a form of free speech, protected under the First Amendment, effectively opening the door for corporations and unions to spend unlimited amounts to support their chosen political candidates. Then further court challenges limited individual spending while creating Super Pacs to which individual millions flowed..
So yes, it’s fair to say we are an Oligarchy. Our financing law has managed, through a combination of legislation and court rulings, to allow a small group of wealthy elites/corps decide who’s elected and how they govern.
The poster may not be making the most artful of arguments but it’s supported by the data and research. There’s a couple of relevant studies but Page & Gilens, Northwestern & Princeton, I remember. They reviewed 20 yrs of public opinion surveys of proposed legislation or policy changes. Selecting only surveys including respondents income, the answers of medium income voters were used to represent average citizens and the 90th %tile income respondents to represent economic elites. A third group of special interests, lobbyists & industries created and their positions on the legislation/policies was compiled and included.
What they found was average citizens only get what they want when it coincides with the preferences of the elites & interest groups. 90% of America has virtually no effect on policy. https://bit.ly/3U4xPAL
He’s not wrong on campaign finance either, but it’s complex, you can research it for detail but briefly: early 2000 McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform act passed. Citizens United, a conservative nonprofit sought an injunction to be exempted from one section. It made it’s way to SCOTUS in 2010 which went way broader in it’s consideration than the original petition and effectively said political spending is a form of free speech, protected under the First Amendment, effectively opening the door for corporations and unions to spend unlimited amounts to support their chosen political candidates. Then further court challenges limited individual spending while creating Super Pacs to which individual millions flowed..
So yes, it’s fair to say we are an Oligarchy. Our financing law has managed, through a combination of legislation and court rulings, to allow a small group of wealthy elites/corps decide who’s elected and how they govern.
“The US is not a democracy – it is an oligarchy.”
“the Supreme Court ruled 5:4 in favour of allowing large corporations the freedom to finance political campaigns”
“it’s much the same as Russia or China”
“Koch brothers et al”
I’m sure we’ve all met people who talk like this and wished we could help.
You really believe that the US is the same as Russia and China and offers the same quality of life, opportunity and justice system? Have you ever been to Russia or China or read about the frequent disappearances and failed flying attempts out of high rise buildings?
Ahh yes. The good ole Koch brothers. The one and only family that the left can still use to counter the serious billionaires on the left, who represent the plank in your eye.
This is correct. And just as US Big Pharma profited from the not-a-pandemic, so the US Arms Industry is profiting from the war in Ukraine.
They both have more than enough reason as sinful and greedy people to want both to continue as long as possible. Which is desperately sad for the people of Ukraine.
Hurrah! You have put into words exactly what I have always thought. America may have (roughly) the same language as us but they are nothing like us (or other western democracies) with their skewed electoral and voting system, political court justice. biased sentencing,and all-powerful Head of State.
But worse than that, they will lead us into another world war.through their dominant position in NATO. .
Question: would you rather live in China/Russia or in the US? Because you are writing pretty simple stuff here…
Nothing wrong with that, and Europe was deeply grateful. That being the foundation of this essay. That things change is also natural, as is that American and European interests might diverge. And diverge they most assuredly have. The thing about US perspectives on Europe is that they invariably come from an air of superiority, as though Europe were a perpetually poor cousin waiting to borrow money at every turn. A Europe barely recovered from the bombing of WWII, as though history were frozen in time for 80 years. A ‘West Side Story’ view of Italy, in particular, where “Every-teenk-oh-khay-eeen-Ameerrrikah.”. Ah, those comedic Latin cousins of Mussolini! Whereas in truth Europe is in infinitely better emotional and material shape than the US. Added to which, the US needs Europe just as much as vice-versa, enmeshed in which matter of fact was a post-1991 redundant NATO, constituting as a Cato Institute author presciently cautioned some years ago, the ‘Dangerous Dinosaur’. And please, the Ukraine war proves not that NATO was needed to protect Western Europe against Russia. Russia actually wanted to join NATO, was profoundly pro-Western not least because she is Western, and was repeatedly rebuffed for various bad reasons, leading to our present self-fulfilled prophecy of war.
Agreed, but when your best interests involve toppling democratically elected governments theft of oil/resources, carpet bombing and the deaths of 6 million Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqis, Syrians, Libyans etc etc etc the other side, ie the victims might see it differently. Surely you can understand that?
Great. Just don’t expect europe to have those same interests. Besides the destruction of the pipelines (which might well have caused a permanent reduction in German output), there’s all the destabilising caused by American adventurism in North Africa and the Middle East. As well as that there’s the insanity of US ideologies like trans and anti whiteness (the latter being a clear disaster for European identity).
All of this is destabilising.
I am not sure it was the Marshall Plan that was the enabler, although it was a stimulus. The US pact was protecting free trade for all who aligned with the US security model. The US acted in its own interests which aligned with the rest of Europe with the spectre of the USSR and nuclear war hanging over it. The way that this model has enabled globalism might have been an unintended consequence that has been regrettable.
The US is not a democracy – it is an oligarchy. Oh yes, the people have a vote but only after all candidates with even the faintest hope of securing power are carefully vetted by Big Money (the oligarchy). The power of the oligarchy was massively increased in 2010 when the Supreme Court ruled 5:4 in favour of allowing large corporations the freedom to finance political campaigns – thus making it virtually impossible for alternative candidates to match the almost unlimited funding available from the oligarchy for their pre-vetted candidates.
So in reality it’s much the same as Russia or China – except, of course, that there are more people incarcerated per capita in the US than in either Russia or China.
Politics in the US is pure theatre with the script written by the Koch brothers et al.
Nothing wrong with that, and Europe was deeply grateful. That being the foundation of this essay. That things change is also natural, as is that American and European interests might diverge. And diverge they most assuredly have. The thing about US perspectives on Europe is that they invariably come from an air of superiority, as though Europe were a perpetually poor cousin waiting to borrow money at every turn. A Europe barely recovered from the bombing of WWII, as though history were frozen in time for 80 years. A ‘West Side Story’ view of Italy, in particular, where “Every-teenk-oh-khay-eeen-Ameerrrikah.”. Ah, those comedic Latin cousins of Mussolini! Whereas in truth Europe is in infinitely better emotional and material shape than the US. Added to which, the US needs Europe just as much as vice-versa, enmeshed in which matter of fact was a post-1991 redundant NATO, constituting as a Cato Institute author presciently cautioned some years ago, the ‘Dangerous Dinosaur’. And please, the Ukraine war proves not that NATO was needed to protect Western Europe against Russia. Russia actually wanted to join NATO, was profoundly pro-Western not least because she is Western, and was repeatedly rebuffed for various bad reasons, leading to our present self-fulfilled prophecy of war.
Agreed, but when your best interests involve toppling democratically elected governments theft of oil/resources, carpet bombing and the deaths of 6 million Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqis, Syrians, Libyans etc etc etc the other side, ie the victims might see it differently. Surely you can understand that?
I am always suspicious of articles that reference accusations as substance, or self-reference the author’s own opinion as if it were a valid data point. Many of us in America are very troubled by Putin‘s invasion of Ukraine, despite it being far more vital to Western Europe‘s interests than our own.
Enough with this nonsense about American Empire, we spent a lot of blood and treasure to help stabilize Europe in the 1940s because it was ultimately in our interests to do so. There’s nothing wrong with countries acting in their own best interests, in fact it’s what our leaders are democratically elected (as opposed to those in Russia and China) to do.
I know I shouldn’t really be quite this blunt, but I don’t suffer fools gladly and I’ve had enough of this nonsense. It’s hard to know whether Fazi is naive or just not very bright. Or perhaps a little of both.
Have US actions re Ukraine really forced China and Russia closer together ? China is clearly also very unhappy with the continuation of this conflict and Russia’s behaviour in creating and prolonging it.
Is this supposed new trading alliance really “dynamic” ? Will it really be the “world’s largest trading block” ? A less trained observer than Mr. Fazi might be distracted by the observation that the countries in this group are definitely not amongst the world leaders in GDP per head, innovation and technology, culture, corporate governance and accounting, rule of law, personal freedom, freedom from corruption, freedom from censorship, religious freedom, … I could go on. In short a sort of “loser’s club”.
But that’s OK. They’re somehow going to wipe the floor with the rest of us. Not.
You’re not being blunt in putting forward your argument, and like you i’m not sure how Fazi got this gig with Unherd. It’s not as if his opinions somehow go against the media grain; in fact, they’re simply reflective of much of MSM.
It’s as if Unherd is experimenting with ChatGPT and are attributing the results to a fictional character they’ve called Thomas Fazi.
On the other hand, perhaps he elicits sufficient Comments and it’s simply a marketing exercise.
The MSM is anti China and BRICS. Most of the “China is doomed” brigade are picking that up from the MSM. All of the MSM is hostile to Russia. What’s interesting about unherd is the hatred of ideologies that emanate from the US, allied with a deep love of the US.
Maybe that attitude is generated by the lack of the rule of law on most of the countries and the tendency of the larger to believe that if that want something they just take it.
Maybe normal people don’t like living near to neighbours who are capable of invading, killing, raping etc just because they can
…nothing strange about that at all. You’ll find on all major issues a 50:50 split is the norm. If it’s 90:10 it’s not really at issue is it?
Maybe that attitude is generated by the lack of the rule of law on most of the countries and the tendency of the larger to believe that if that want something they just take it.
Maybe normal people don’t like living near to neighbours who are capable of invading, killing, raping etc just because they can
…nothing strange about that at all. You’ll find on all major issues a 50:50 split is the norm. If it’s 90:10 it’s not really at issue is it?
…reflective of MSM? ..surely you mean alternative media?
The MSM is anti China and BRICS. Most of the “China is doomed” brigade are picking that up from the MSM. All of the MSM is hostile to Russia. What’s interesting about unherd is the hatred of ideologies that emanate from the US, allied with a deep love of the US.
…reflective of MSM? ..surely you mean alternative media?
“ Have US actions re Ukraine really forced China and Russia closer together ?”
Yes. Clearly. Don’t know what you are reading.
“ A less trained observer than Mr. Fazi might be distracted by the observation that the countries in this group are definitely not amongst the world leaders in GDP per head, innovation and technology, culture, corporate governance and accounting, rule of law, personal freedom, freedom from corruption, freedom from censorship, religious freedom”
Ignoring all the guff about nice stuff that you claim the US and the West has, but doesn’t really, the main factor is population vs GDP per capita multiplied by population. If that multiplication confines to grow faster than the west then these trading blocks become more powerful.
Population/GDP. But it isn’t, is it ? China and Russia are in rapid and terminal population decline. The USA is still growing. Not least because people from poorer countries want to go there for the economic opportunities and greater freedom. Unlike Russia and China where almost no one wants to emigrate to. Coincidence ? Hardly.
And these millions of people who queue up to go the the USA simply don’t know what they’re doing then ?
Back to the earlier point. The Ukraine conflict will accelerate the dependency of Russia on China. This is very different from a voluntary and mutually beneficial alliance. Beneficial for China. Not for Russia.
The Chinese already have eyes of some border areas within Russia. Like Belt and Road, the Chinese will own Russia and all that fuel should conditions continue. Be assured that they will also mismanage that well.
Your confusing real US hegemony with a fictional version attributed to China. You also forget Russia has all the resources.. I know that would be irrelevant if it was the US instead of China because you would simply orchestrate a coup, assassinate the leader, install a puppet regime and steal the resources.. or if that didn’t work you’d simply carpet bomb them, invade and do that way. Sure isn’t that what you’ve done over and over again; 50 times in the last 30 years?
Your confusing real US hegemony with a fictional version attributed to China. You also forget Russia has all the resources.. I know that would be irrelevant if it was the US instead of China because you would simply orchestrate a coup, assassinate the leader, install a puppet regime and steal the resources.. or if that didn’t work you’d simply carpet bomb them, invade and do that way. Sure isn’t that what you’ve done over and over again; 50 times in the last 30 years?
Also, if you believe China’s GDP growth figures, I have a rather nice bridge I’d like to sell.
…unlike all those countries that have benefitted from their “alliance” with the US, eg Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc.. and now Europe thanks to the US blowing up Nordstream’; and then selling us LNG at 5 times the price! With friends like the US who needs enemies eh?
The Chinese already have eyes of some border areas within Russia. Like Belt and Road, the Chinese will own Russia and all that fuel should conditions continue. Be assured that they will also mismanage that well.
Also, if you believe China’s GDP growth figures, I have a rather nice bridge I’d like to sell.
…unlike all those countries that have benefitted from their “alliance” with the US, eg Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc.. and now Europe thanks to the US blowing up Nordstream’; and then selling us LNG at 5 times the price! With friends like the US who needs enemies eh?
..the hint is in the term “emerging” as against the term applicable to the high GDP pc G7 states which are “declining”. Anyone who cannot see the decline of the US is either blind, or deaf, or ignorant, or stupid or in denial of the blatantly obvious.. or possible all of the above.
Population/GDP. But it isn’t, is it ? China and Russia are in rapid and terminal population decline. The USA is still growing. Not least because people from poorer countries want to go there for the economic opportunities and greater freedom. Unlike Russia and China where almost no one wants to emigrate to. Coincidence ? Hardly.
And these millions of people who queue up to go the the USA simply don’t know what they’re doing then ?
Back to the earlier point. The Ukraine conflict will accelerate the dependency of Russia on China. This is very different from a voluntary and mutually beneficial alliance. Beneficial for China. Not for Russia.
..the hint is in the term “emerging” as against the term applicable to the high GDP pc G7 states which are “declining”. Anyone who cannot see the decline of the US is either blind, or deaf, or ignorant, or stupid or in denial of the blatantly obvious.. or possible all of the above.
Since you’re in blunt mode, I presume I can be blunt as well. Fazi is much, much smarter than you, with vastly more knowledge about the real world. He can also write well.
You live in an MSM bubble – filled with a cocktail of copium, hopium and plain ignorance of what’s actually happening in the real world.
That bubble of yours is about to be burst – squeezed between the colliding tectonic plates of geopolitics. I can’t improve on H Kissenger’s quip:
‘To be an enemy of the US can be dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal’.
Of course – be as blunt as you like.
I’m curious how you arrived at the conclusion that Fazi is “much, much smarter” than I am ? You may well know Fazi (I don’t), but I very much doubt you know me.
How are you able to evaluate my knowledge of the world against Thomas Fazi’s ? Mr Fazi appears to be 32 and live in Rome. I’m getting on for double his age and have lived in the UK, USA and France and almost certainly travelled more widely, been exposed to more cultures and met a wider range of people than Mr Fazi.
Besides which, being “smart” – however you may care to define it – is certainly no guarantee of being correct. You wouldn’t be smart if you assumed that to always be the case.
I rather think this quote “filled with a cocktail of copium, hopium and plain ignorance of what’s actually happening in the real world” describes your world view better than mine – i.e. it’s projection. But we shall see …
Of course – be as blunt as you like.
I’m curious how you arrived at the conclusion that Fazi is “much, much smarter” than I am ? You may well know Fazi (I don’t), but I very much doubt you know me.
How are you able to evaluate my knowledge of the world against Thomas Fazi’s ? Mr Fazi appears to be 32 and live in Rome. I’m getting on for double his age and have lived in the UK, USA and France and almost certainly travelled more widely, been exposed to more cultures and met a wider range of people than Mr Fazi.
Besides which, being “smart” – however you may care to define it – is certainly no guarantee of being correct. You wouldn’t be smart if you assumed that to always be the case.
I rather think this quote “filled with a cocktail of copium, hopium and plain ignorance of what’s actually happening in the real world” describes your world view better than mine – i.e. it’s projection. But we shall see …
If you extract your head from the sand and look at what is happening and listen to what is being said around the world (and stop being a sucker to MSM propaganda) you might see the light.
You’re not being blunt in putting forward your argument, and like you i’m not sure how Fazi got this gig with Unherd. It’s not as if his opinions somehow go against the media grain; in fact, they’re simply reflective of much of MSM.
It’s as if Unherd is experimenting with ChatGPT and are attributing the results to a fictional character they’ve called Thomas Fazi.
On the other hand, perhaps he elicits sufficient Comments and it’s simply a marketing exercise.
“ Have US actions re Ukraine really forced China and Russia closer together ?”
Yes. Clearly. Don’t know what you are reading.
“ A less trained observer than Mr. Fazi might be distracted by the observation that the countries in this group are definitely not amongst the world leaders in GDP per head, innovation and technology, culture, corporate governance and accounting, rule of law, personal freedom, freedom from corruption, freedom from censorship, religious freedom”
Ignoring all the guff about nice stuff that you claim the US and the West has, but doesn’t really, the main factor is population vs GDP per capita multiplied by population. If that multiplication confines to grow faster than the west then these trading blocks become more powerful.
Since you’re in blunt mode, I presume I can be blunt as well. Fazi is much, much smarter than you, with vastly more knowledge about the real world. He can also write well.
You live in an MSM bubble – filled with a cocktail of copium, hopium and plain ignorance of what’s actually happening in the real world.
That bubble of yours is about to be burst – squeezed between the colliding tectonic plates of geopolitics. I can’t improve on H Kissenger’s quip:
‘To be an enemy of the US can be dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal’.
If you extract your head from the sand and look at what is happening and listen to what is being said around the world (and stop being a sucker to MSM propaganda) you might see the light.
I know I shouldn’t really be quite this blunt, but I don’t suffer fools gladly and I’ve had enough of this nonsense. It’s hard to know whether Fazi is naive or just not very bright. Or perhaps a little of both.
Have US actions re Ukraine really forced China and Russia closer together ? China is clearly also very unhappy with the continuation of this conflict and Russia’s behaviour in creating and prolonging it.
Is this supposed new trading alliance really “dynamic” ? Will it really be the “world’s largest trading block” ? A less trained observer than Mr. Fazi might be distracted by the observation that the countries in this group are definitely not amongst the world leaders in GDP per head, innovation and technology, culture, corporate governance and accounting, rule of law, personal freedom, freedom from corruption, freedom from censorship, religious freedom, … I could go on. In short a sort of “loser’s club”.
But that’s OK. They’re somehow going to wipe the floor with the rest of us. Not.
After World War I the victorious allies looted Germany with reparations and got Hitler. After World War II the US intended to deindustrialize Germany but changed its mind with the Cold War.
So the Germans — who invented everything from modern philosophy to chemistry to cars — were able to get their Mittelstand going and benefit the world.
To think that the US ruling class has ever had a serious global strategy and executed on it is, in my opinion, fantasy.
No, the usual suspects are stumbling and bumbling around as usual, and pretending that they and their alphabet bureaucracies are saving the world.
If you go back 80 years the US was the saviour of Europe. Since then only bad things have come from the US of A – and Europe has followed. Take for example, Viet Nam, aids, drug addiction (luckily we weren’t stupid enough to get addicted to opioids), the cholesterol years which probably killed hundreds of thousands, woke attitudes, the Floyd overreaction, irresponsible behaviour of Hollywood stars. Now the idiots are talking about $5 million to each black person and we are talking about it as well.
Although this site hates any mention of China, the do-gooders in the world recently have been the Chinese. They have a recent history of helping poor countries in Africa and Asia. Admittedly, they did it to gain much-needed resources but America’s charity wasn’t just charity either.
So, you hate China because of its government system. You believe that COVID came from China. China is the enemy. But the US of A is not a friend.
If you think the Chinese are ‘helping’ in Africa I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Yes, just like how they ‘helped’ the Sri Lankans…
And Tibet.
And Tibet.
The Africans think so.
Time will tell, if you can’t meet the repayments and all the assets worth having will belong to the CCP
..unlike the US driven IMF and World Bank who just forgive bad debts right?
..unlike the US driven IMF and World Bank who just forgive bad debts right?
Who’s accusing the Africans of being prescient or even bright? Unfortunately, too many African leaders are too interested in their own personal gain – their countries be damned.
Africa is Corruption-R-US
What they need to do is adopt the corruption free US model where $50 trillion of wealth has been transferred from the workers to the filthy rich friends of the DEMS and GOP!
What they need to do is adopt the corruption free US model where $50 trillion of wealth has been transferred from the workers to the filthy rich friends of the DEMS and GOP!
Time will tell, if you can’t meet the repayments and all the assets worth having will belong to the CCP
Who’s accusing the Africans of being prescient or even bright? Unfortunately, too many African leaders are too interested in their own personal gain – their countries be damned.
Africa is Corruption-R-US
Funny how all those African countries fall for Chinese malintent, instead of trusting all those benign countries that colonised them, enslaved them, murdered their leaders and robbed their resources. Some people have no gratitude!
Yes, just like how they ‘helped’ the Sri Lankans…
The Africans think so.
Funny how all those African countries fall for Chinese malintent, instead of trusting all those benign countries that colonised them, enslaved them, murdered their leaders and robbed their resources. Some people have no gratitude!
Go on then, where do you think covid came from?
Who knows.
It came from a US controlled lab in China where a bioweapon was being developed run by a guy called Fau Chi… so I guess it came from …China!
It came from a US controlled lab in China where a bioweapon was being developed run by a guy called Fau Chi… so I guess it came from …China!
Who knows.
If you think the Chinese are ‘helping’ in Africa I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Go on then, where do you think covid came from?
It’s the Wizard of Oz hiding behind his big green curtain which is made of US dollars.
If you go back 80 years the US was the saviour of Europe. Since then only bad things have come from the US of A – and Europe has followed. Take for example, Viet Nam, aids, drug addiction (luckily we weren’t stupid enough to get addicted to opioids), the cholesterol years which probably killed hundreds of thousands, woke attitudes, the Floyd overreaction, irresponsible behaviour of Hollywood stars. Now the idiots are talking about $5 million to each black person and we are talking about it as well.
Although this site hates any mention of China, the do-gooders in the world recently have been the Chinese. They have a recent history of helping poor countries in Africa and Asia. Admittedly, they did it to gain much-needed resources but America’s charity wasn’t just charity either.
So, you hate China because of its government system. You believe that COVID came from China. China is the enemy. But the US of A is not a friend.
It’s the Wizard of Oz hiding behind his big green curtain which is made of US dollars.
After World War I the victorious allies looted Germany with reparations and got Hitler. After World War II the US intended to deindustrialize Germany but changed its mind with the Cold War.
So the Germans — who invented everything from modern philosophy to chemistry to cars — were able to get their Mittelstand going and benefit the world.
To think that the US ruling class has ever had a serious global strategy and executed on it is, in my opinion, fantasy.
No, the usual suspects are stumbling and bumbling around as usual, and pretending that they and their alphabet bureaucracies are saving the world.
Fazi’s usual mantra about the “rising BRICS,” and the declining First World.
That may be true for China (up till now). But India, Brazil and South Africa are in just as much economic hardship as the rest of the world. And the reason why is what holds back much of the world: elite corruption.
Moreover, China itself has managed to create a demographic Death Spiral that will make Japan’s slow growth in the last few decades seem like boom times.
As for Russia, entering year two of a no-win war (far more destructive to Russia itself than Vietnam or Iraq ever were to the US) does not bode well for Moscow’s long term survival. So, Fazi’s idea that Europe will suddenly abandon the US with a Russian army at the door is pure fantasy.
(Has anyone told him that Hungary just allowed Finland into NATO? No, guess not)
There are always people who gather around a shop with a smashed front window, hoping that they may somehow get their hands on the goodies inside.
But the shop windows are still intact. So, people like Fazi may just have to put their hands in their pockets and move on.
The police are still on this beat.
The Chinese “death spiral” is massively overestimated. The drop to 1.3 tfr last year was largely due to covid shutdowns, China will probably bounce back with population increases for another decade. And the CCP are actually talking about fixing demographics unlike in Europe where most people don’t even know about much longer term demographic decline. Or in the US where nobody things the population will decline but on present trends it will without significantly increased immigration.
Or that Korea and Taiwan are at a tfr of 5%
You might want to read the April issue of NatGeo where those demographics are detailed. Note that Japan and South Korea are much richer/per capita than China thus can manage a little better. That one child policy is now really a problem.
You might want to read the April issue of NatGeo where those demographics are detailed. Note that Japan and South Korea are much richer/per capita than China thus can manage a little better. That one child policy is now really a problem.
” China … demographic Death Spiral” – Indeed. So much for overtaking the US economically. Chinese women don’t want children. Chinese men can’t find partners. Their society aging rapidly with no immigration to supply workers spells trouble. Russia faces a similar problem at a lower scale.
Sadly, the notion of the US as the world’s policeman is coming to an end with nearly every nation facing a sovereign debt problem. And because nearly everybody has turned their back on energy, getting out of that debt means all face a lower standard of living. Party while you can; the refreshments are being put away.
Funny that “every nation faces ‘debt” …who is the debt owed to? The Martians?
Funny that “every nation faces ‘debt” …who is the debt owed to? The Martians?
The Chinese “death spiral” is massively overestimated. The drop to 1.3 tfr last year was largely due to covid shutdowns, China will probably bounce back with population increases for another decade. And the CCP are actually talking about fixing demographics unlike in Europe where most people don’t even know about much longer term demographic decline. Or in the US where nobody things the population will decline but on present trends it will without significantly increased immigration.
Or that Korea and Taiwan are at a tfr of 5%
” China … demographic Death Spiral” – Indeed. So much for overtaking the US economically. Chinese women don’t want children. Chinese men can’t find partners. Their society aging rapidly with no immigration to supply workers spells trouble. Russia faces a similar problem at a lower scale.
Sadly, the notion of the US as the world’s policeman is coming to an end with nearly every nation facing a sovereign debt problem. And because nearly everybody has turned their back on energy, getting out of that debt means all face a lower standard of living. Party while you can; the refreshments are being put away.
Fazi’s usual mantra about the “rising BRICS,” and the declining First World.
That may be true for China (up till now). But India, Brazil and South Africa are in just as much economic hardship as the rest of the world. And the reason why is what holds back much of the world: elite corruption.
Moreover, China itself has managed to create a demographic Death Spiral that will make Japan’s slow growth in the last few decades seem like boom times.
As for Russia, entering year two of a no-win war (far more destructive to Russia itself than Vietnam or Iraq ever were to the US) does not bode well for Moscow’s long term survival. So, Fazi’s idea that Europe will suddenly abandon the US with a Russian army at the door is pure fantasy.
(Has anyone told him that Hungary just allowed Finland into NATO? No, guess not)
There are always people who gather around a shop with a smashed front window, hoping that they may somehow get their hands on the goodies inside.
But the shop windows are still intact. So, people like Fazi may just have to put their hands in their pockets and move on.
The police are still on this beat.
I really can’t work out if Fazi is a Chinese CP shill or not, but he does seem to get excited about their ‘impending’ world dominance.
He’s the tankie’s tankie.
The essay came across as adolescent bleeting; mom and dad have been helping me forever, but I don’t need the help, on the other hand when is the next check arriving? Why is Europe framed as being so needy all the time? It’s almost as if ‘a thought or head realignment’ is required.
That’s a good assessment as any. I’ll add to your analogy that because he’s pissed at Mom and Pop (USA), he decides he’ll throw in with the street gang (China) who demands only obedience.
Maybe if mom n pop are bombing the crap out of him, assassinating his friends, stealing his oil and corrupting him he’s better off taking his chances with the street gang?
Maybe if mom n pop are bombing the crap out of him, assassinating his friends, stealing his oil and corrupting him he’s better off taking his chances with the street gang?
Where do you get these crazy notions? MSM and idiot politicians I guess? and war hungry MIC too I suppose?
That’s a good assessment as any. I’ll add to your analogy that because he’s pissed at Mom and Pop (USA), he decides he’ll throw in with the street gang (China) who demands only obedience.
Where do you get these crazy notions? MSM and idiot politicians I guess? and war hungry MIC too I suppose?
…either that or he is a realist, capable of reading the signs and seeing the obvious while the blind and the deaf bleat around him.
He’s the tankie’s tankie.
The essay came across as adolescent bleeting; mom and dad have been helping me forever, but I don’t need the help, on the other hand when is the next check arriving? Why is Europe framed as being so needy all the time? It’s almost as if ‘a thought or head realignment’ is required.
…either that or he is a realist, capable of reading the signs and seeing the obvious while the blind and the deaf bleat around him.
I really can’t work out if Fazi is a Chinese CP shill or not, but he does seem to get excited about their ‘impending’ world dominance.
It is not unexpected if the US starts to pivot away from Europe. When it was US vs USSR, Europe was important. As it becomes US vs China, South and East Asia take centre stage. Europe, through its protectionism and regulation, high-cost-low-growth, with anti-US rulings on competition and data, and reluctance to pay for its own defence, risks becoming a dead-end backwater. Why would the US fund an old white competitor, that blocks its corporations, when the money can be better applied elsewhere to hold back the Chinese-sphere of influence? To play devil’s advocate, what does the US get from Europe except bills?
It bears remembering that Biden just barely beat Trump, who declared in typical fashion, directly and without tact, that Europe was free riding under the American defense umbrella and should be forced to pay more of the cost and even threatened to dissolve the alliance. The EU rejects GMO’s for unscientific reasons, and this largely excludes American agricultural products, the export of which would go quite a ways towards enriching the places where isolationism is strongest. Those in Europe that like to bash the US should be careful what they wish for, as I don’t see the situation getting any better if the US decides to pick up and leave, focusing their resources on other places that actually benefit American interests.
Oh yes, please, please go.. and please stop your warmongering in Europe, and please don’t blow up any more of our pipelines; and please let us make peace with our fellow Europeans the Russians (yes, Russia is in Europe; the Asian part is sparsely populated) and take your racist Evangelist hatred with you. You are a blight on humanity; a plague bringing nothing but death and destruction wherever you go.. with ‘friends’ like you who needs enemies eh?
Oh yes, please, please go.. and please stop your warmongering in Europe, and please don’t blow up any more of our pipelines; and please let us make peace with our fellow Europeans the Russians (yes, Russia is in Europe; the Asian part is sparsely populated) and take your racist Evangelist hatred with you. You are a blight on humanity; a plague bringing nothing but death and destruction wherever you go.. with ‘friends’ like you who needs enemies eh?
What does the US get from any of its vassal and conquered states? Booty! ..it has that nice ‘benevolent’ appearance but it is rotten to the core.. a bit like the benevolent British Empire before it and the benevolent Roman Empire before that. Exploitation, corruption, theft, coups, assassinations, regime toppling etc. Murder, mayhem, death and destruction follow wherever the US goes.. those are the words of the American professor Jeffrey Sachs, and American Noam Chomsky, and American Col. Scott Ritter, and American Col. Douglas McGregor and every other intelligent American I’ve heard speaking on the subject.
It bears remembering that Biden just barely beat Trump, who declared in typical fashion, directly and without tact, that Europe was free riding under the American defense umbrella and should be forced to pay more of the cost and even threatened to dissolve the alliance. The EU rejects GMO’s for unscientific reasons, and this largely excludes American agricultural products, the export of which would go quite a ways towards enriching the places where isolationism is strongest. Those in Europe that like to bash the US should be careful what they wish for, as I don’t see the situation getting any better if the US decides to pick up and leave, focusing their resources on other places that actually benefit American interests.
What does the US get from any of its vassal and conquered states? Booty! ..it has that nice ‘benevolent’ appearance but it is rotten to the core.. a bit like the benevolent British Empire before it and the benevolent Roman Empire before that. Exploitation, corruption, theft, coups, assassinations, regime toppling etc. Murder, mayhem, death and destruction follow wherever the US goes.. those are the words of the American professor Jeffrey Sachs, and American Noam Chomsky, and American Col. Scott Ritter, and American Col. Douglas McGregor and every other intelligent American I’ve heard speaking on the subject.
It is not unexpected if the US starts to pivot away from Europe. When it was US vs USSR, Europe was important. As it becomes US vs China, South and East Asia take centre stage. Europe, through its protectionism and regulation, high-cost-low-growth, with anti-US rulings on competition and data, and reluctance to pay for its own defence, risks becoming a dead-end backwater. Why would the US fund an old white competitor, that blocks its corporations, when the money can be better applied elsewhere to hold back the Chinese-sphere of influence? To play devil’s advocate, what does the US get from Europe except bills?
I don’t get the pre-occupation with the Inflation Reduction Act. Getting into a subsidy war is never a good idea. It’s only the dimwits who even bother – see Justin Trudeau and his latest budget. Countries end up chasing the same industries and you’re left with a bunch of businesses that fail once the subsidies disappear. The world only needs so many solar panels and EVs, and once the subsidies are gone, production will gravitate to the lowest-cost locations. Chasing green business is even more precarious because they are not established industries. How many EVs does the world actually need? Solar is all the rage right now, but it could disappear in 10 years. Let the Americans cut their own throat. Instead of one Solyndra, you will now have dozens.
I don’t get the pre-occupation with the Inflation Reduction Act. Getting into a subsidy war is never a good idea. It’s only the dimwits who even bother – see Justin Trudeau and his latest budget. Countries end up chasing the same industries and you’re left with a bunch of businesses that fail once the subsidies disappear. The world only needs so many solar panels and EVs, and once the subsidies are gone, production will gravitate to the lowest-cost locations. Chasing green business is even more precarious because they are not established industries. How many EVs does the world actually need? Solar is all the rage right now, but it could disappear in 10 years. Let the Americans cut their own throat. Instead of one Solyndra, you will now have dozens.
“No wonder some thought the US was behind the bombing of the Nord Stream pipeline, which severed Russian-German relations.”
??
“No wonder some THINK the US was behind the bombing of the Nord Stream pipeline, which severed Russian-German relations.
Hersh has comprehensively debunked the “pro Ukrainian group” narrative propagated by intelligence agencies via the New York Times and the German newspaper Die Zeit and unfortunately endorsed also by Unherd.
See https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/the-cover-up?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
https://theintercept.com/2023/03/10/nord-stream-pipeline-bombing/
https://theintercept.com/2023/03/25/nord-stream-russia-investigation-seymour-hersh/
“No wonder some thought the US was behind the bombing of the Nord Stream pipeline, which severed Russian-German relations.”
??
“No wonder some THINK the US was behind the bombing of the Nord Stream pipeline, which severed Russian-German relations.
Hersh has comprehensively debunked the “pro Ukrainian group” narrative propagated by intelligence agencies via the New York Times and the German newspaper Die Zeit and unfortunately endorsed also by Unherd.
See https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/the-cover-up?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
https://theintercept.com/2023/03/10/nord-stream-pipeline-bombing/
https://theintercept.com/2023/03/25/nord-stream-russia-investigation-seymour-hersh/
Timeo Danaes et Dona Ferrentes…Benevolent Empire? That was the be the finalization of our total vassalage to the hegemon, already started in 1920 by the rapacious debt repayment demands to which an exhausted Europe was subjected in exchange for an 11th hour Yankee intervention. La Fayette nous voilà! You bet, mister!Small investment, but all the rewards. Typical hedge/vulture fund behaviour, the true face of rackett capitalism. There ain’t no free lunch, buddy! Can you spare a dime…
Timeo Danaes et Dona Ferrentes…Benevolent Empire? That was the be the finalization of our total vassalage to the hegemon, already started in 1920 by the rapacious debt repayment demands to which an exhausted Europe was subjected in exchange for an 11th hour Yankee intervention. La Fayette nous voilà! You bet, mister!Small investment, but all the rewards. Typical hedge/vulture fund behaviour, the true face of rackett capitalism. There ain’t no free lunch, buddy! Can you spare a dime…
This is so very typically European, turning around decades later and biting the American hand that first rescued it from a vicious outlaw regime and then fed it back to health. But hey, you’re welcome.
True – no good deed goes unpunished 🙂
No one is saying the (very late) involvement in WW2 and later Marshall Plan wasn’t a ‘good deed’. It was. But when you do a good deed and demand endless payment for it, it loses some of of beneficence. It wasnt as if the British, Indians, Australians etc didn’t fight Japan in the Pacific, thereby assisting the US.. Sure that was in their own interest too but then so was American involvement in the European war. Quid pro quo!
No one is saying the (very late) involvement in WW2 and later Marshall Plan wasn’t a ‘good deed’. It was. But when you do a good deed and demand endless payment for it, it loses some of of beneficence. It wasnt as if the British, Indians, Australians etc didn’t fight Japan in the Pacific, thereby assisting the US.. Sure that was in their own interest too but then so was American involvement in the European war. Quid pro quo!
LOL. Good play. What is it about Western European culture that always seems to prevent peace and prosperity from proliferating for any serious length of time?
All peaceful on the home front, then, Warren? What it is about Europe? Geopolitical games spearheaded by a US foreign policy class, enjoined by careerist European counterparts, seeking to bring peace and prosperity through dominance to enforce a universal benevolent homogeneity. While righting the historic wrongs of European history, as experienced by their ancestors, from the bridge of the Battleship Enterprise. Pat Buchanan being one of the few left with clarity on what a classically liberal US FP would look like.
..do you mean the 70 years of peace in Western Europe when the US invaded, bombed, toppled, assassinated, devastated 50+ countries around the world???
All peaceful on the home front, then, Warren? What it is about Europe? Geopolitical games spearheaded by a US foreign policy class, enjoined by careerist European counterparts, seeking to bring peace and prosperity through dominance to enforce a universal benevolent homogeneity. While righting the historic wrongs of European history, as experienced by their ancestors, from the bridge of the Battleship Enterprise. Pat Buchanan being one of the few left with clarity on what a classically liberal US FP would look like.
..do you mean the 70 years of peace in Western Europe when the US invaded, bombed, toppled, assassinated, devastated 50+ countries around the world???
Don’t flatter yourself, the Russians did the heavy lifting in WW2.
Russia won WW2 by a margin of 20:1 taking Berlin. It would have been a simple matter to continue to take over all of Europe after that. The Yanks arrived very late and made a minor contribution.. it then loaned dollars to Europe to take it over economically. The Marshall plan wasn’t a gift.. it was a loan with massive collateral and massive collateral damage!
True – no good deed goes unpunished 🙂
LOL. Good play. What is it about Western European culture that always seems to prevent peace and prosperity from proliferating for any serious length of time?
Don’t flatter yourself, the Russians did the heavy lifting in WW2.
Russia won WW2 by a margin of 20:1 taking Berlin. It would have been a simple matter to continue to take over all of Europe after that. The Yanks arrived very late and made a minor contribution.. it then loaned dollars to Europe to take it over economically. The Marshall plan wasn’t a gift.. it was a loan with massive collateral and massive collateral damage!
This is so very typically European, turning around decades later and biting the American hand that first rescued it from a vicious outlaw regime and then fed it back to health. But hey, you’re welcome.
Pretty much everything Fazi writes comes from the premise that US is malign. It’s almost Corbynista in flavour.
An assessment of the Marshall Plan will have different views on the degree of stimulus, but in isolation can miss the point. The US had just secured the freedom of western Europe and was ensuring that continuation economically and via security. Fortunately it’s self interest reinforced this but for good reasons – free countries trading freely supports their economic model the most. Fine, we can live with that.
Fazi lacks a counter-factual on what he thinks would have happened without both. More tanks rolling into capitals like in Budapest? Some transformation in how the totalitarian regimes of the Eastern bloc might have evolved to more liberal societies perhaps? He’ll be believing in the tooth fairy next.
US foreign policy made many mistakes, some big some small. But Fazi implies the CCPs BRI some benevolent gesture. It’s about spreading and further securing their form of totalitarianism.
A new European Marshall Plan is not needed because Europe is now strong enough to combine and have it’s own. That’s what has been happening. We just don’t call it such. Look round the World – where is the richest, most prosperous grouping of countries? How did that happen Fazi?
I’m also not sure having the US as a friend is losing it’s attraction at all, unless you are half way already to being a totalitarian regime. if you are not you are beginning to grasp the US is a critical anchor we need.
Pretty much everything Fazi writes comes from the premise that US is malign. It’s almost Corbynista in flavour.
An assessment of the Marshall Plan will have different views on the degree of stimulus, but in isolation can miss the point. The US had just secured the freedom of western Europe and was ensuring that continuation economically and via security. Fortunately it’s self interest reinforced this but for good reasons – free countries trading freely supports their economic model the most. Fine, we can live with that.
Fazi lacks a counter-factual on what he thinks would have happened without both. More tanks rolling into capitals like in Budapest? Some transformation in how the totalitarian regimes of the Eastern bloc might have evolved to more liberal societies perhaps? He’ll be believing in the tooth fairy next.
US foreign policy made many mistakes, some big some small. But Fazi implies the CCPs BRI some benevolent gesture. It’s about spreading and further securing their form of totalitarianism.
A new European Marshall Plan is not needed because Europe is now strong enough to combine and have it’s own. That’s what has been happening. We just don’t call it such. Look round the World – where is the richest, most prosperous grouping of countries? How did that happen Fazi?
I’m also not sure having the US as a friend is losing it’s attraction at all, unless you are half way already to being a totalitarian regime. if you are not you are beginning to grasp the US is a critical anchor we need.
The Marshall Plan was always a tool to cement America’s geopolitical control of western Europe against the Soviets. Even its designers would admit it was if they were being honest. The Marshall Plan as a benevolent aid package to rebuild war torn Europe was the work of American propagandists who sold it to the people of America, who historically tended towards isolationism and might have balked at spending their tax dollars on foreigners without such a sympathy card in play. The extent to which that view has been adopted by popular history is simply a function of history being written by the victors in any conflict. It was a very effective one. China’s Belt and Road is a similar plan with similar purpose. My question to the author is this. Why should anyone believe a Chinese hegemonic economic empire will be any more benevolent than an American one? It is hypocritical to condemn the Marshall Plan as political and then, by the end of the article, advocate signing up for something very similar under some other hegemon. This indicates not a coherent position, but rather a preference for a different hegemon. The author further accuses the US of ‘isolationism’ and ‘protectionism’, but all countries engage in this to some extent. I could point out numerous examples of how China has manipulated their own economy using policies that could be construed as protectionist. Many world governments, including some the author names (India particularly), engage in selective protectionism for economic policy, employment, national security, or various other reasons. As to whether Europe should ‘remain anchored to the US’, consider this. The carriers, planes, and missiles that maintain the freedom of the seas that the world takes for granted are paid for by American taxpayers. What if they were suddenly gone? We would quickly see that blanket of protection replaced by regional spheres of control, which would also not be free, and large areas where there was nobody to enforce any rules and piracy ran rampant, which was pretty much historical normal from the fall of Rome up to the rise of the British and American naval empires of the past 150 years. The reality is that lopsided economic policies and the imbalanced benefits and costs of the Ukraine war are a way for America to recoup some of the costs of empire during a difficult time where the world is collectively retreating from unrestricted globalism as a result of populist movements in various places and also as a result of bad actors such as China and Russia who either exploit the existing rules or ignore them entirely. No, the American hegemony is not completely benevolent. No realistic hegemony is. It does, and will continue to do, various things that favor the American people over its allies. It will particularly do so during times of domestic political turmoil when the existing ruling class is under plausible threat of rebellion and revolution, as it is now. The Biden administration’s measures are the bare minimum of protectionism to appease the voters and maintain power. If the current ruling class is overthrown by some real populist, Europe’s position is likely to get much worse, and more costly as that constituency is likely to demand lower spending on foreign conflicts, greater contributions from allies, and even more overt protectionism. This is not just an American phenomenon. Globalism as a philosophy is in retreat, and we are adjusting to what comes next. The reality is that the America of today cannot afford to be the benevolent hegemon it was in 1945. We don’t live in a perfect world. We often have to pick not the best option, but the least bad, and American hegemony, even as it becomes less benevolent, may still be preferable to Chinese totalitarianism or trying to build Europe into a regional power.
The Marshall Plan was always a tool to cement America’s geopolitical control of western Europe against the Soviets. Even its designers would admit it was if they were being honest. The Marshall Plan as a benevolent aid package to rebuild war torn Europe was the work of American propagandists who sold it to the people of America, who historically tended towards isolationism and might have balked at spending their tax dollars on foreigners without such a sympathy card in play. The extent to which that view has been adopted by popular history is simply a function of history being written by the victors in any conflict. It was a very effective one. China’s Belt and Road is a similar plan with similar purpose. My question to the author is this. Why should anyone believe a Chinese hegemonic economic empire will be any more benevolent than an American one? It is hypocritical to condemn the Marshall Plan as political and then, by the end of the article, advocate signing up for something very similar under some other hegemon. This indicates not a coherent position, but rather a preference for a different hegemon. The author further accuses the US of ‘isolationism’ and ‘protectionism’, but all countries engage in this to some extent. I could point out numerous examples of how China has manipulated their own economy using policies that could be construed as protectionist. Many world governments, including some the author names (India particularly), engage in selective protectionism for economic policy, employment, national security, or various other reasons. As to whether Europe should ‘remain anchored to the US’, consider this. The carriers, planes, and missiles that maintain the freedom of the seas that the world takes for granted are paid for by American taxpayers. What if they were suddenly gone? We would quickly see that blanket of protection replaced by regional spheres of control, which would also not be free, and large areas where there was nobody to enforce any rules and piracy ran rampant, which was pretty much historical normal from the fall of Rome up to the rise of the British and American naval empires of the past 150 years. The reality is that lopsided economic policies and the imbalanced benefits and costs of the Ukraine war are a way for America to recoup some of the costs of empire during a difficult time where the world is collectively retreating from unrestricted globalism as a result of populist movements in various places and also as a result of bad actors such as China and Russia who either exploit the existing rules or ignore them entirely. No, the American hegemony is not completely benevolent. No realistic hegemony is. It does, and will continue to do, various things that favor the American people over its allies. It will particularly do so during times of domestic political turmoil when the existing ruling class is under plausible threat of rebellion and revolution, as it is now. The Biden administration’s measures are the bare minimum of protectionism to appease the voters and maintain power. If the current ruling class is overthrown by some real populist, Europe’s position is likely to get much worse, and more costly as that constituency is likely to demand lower spending on foreign conflicts, greater contributions from allies, and even more overt protectionism. This is not just an American phenomenon. Globalism as a philosophy is in retreat, and we are adjusting to what comes next. The reality is that the America of today cannot afford to be the benevolent hegemon it was in 1945. We don’t live in a perfect world. We often have to pick not the best option, but the least bad, and American hegemony, even as it becomes less benevolent, may still be preferable to Chinese totalitarianism or trying to build Europe into a regional power.
This is a remarkable piece–not only for its clarity, but that it also exists here and will accelerate wider dissemination. I have been wondering how long it would take for Europeans to awaken to what is happening–and has been happening–to them. The article covers most of that, and for the particular rest that concerns me, I can lay that to mainstream media blackouts on discussion of this sort. BBC, Guardian, DW–they exist in a self created reality and follow a map that has little to do with the territory they describe so authoritatively.
As an American, I have been long hoping for this awakening. I have wished for it ever since Viet Nam.
My thanks to the author for being so bold and incisive.
So am I correct in assuming you are hoping for America’s decline?
The decline of America’s empire, yes. Over the years we have all been brutalized by our quest for absolute dominance. Our democracy has been completely hijacked by the military industrial complex–and the congress folk who it so generally supports with campaign contributions.
Our American empire is not what America can and should be. It it not America at all. Both we and the world deserve a respite.
The decline of America’s empire, yes. Over the years we have all been brutalized by our quest for absolute dominance. Our democracy has been completely hijacked by the military industrial complex–and the congress folk who it so generally supports with campaign contributions.
Our American empire is not what America can and should be. It it not America at all. Both we and the world deserve a respite.
Nurse!
So am I correct in assuming you are hoping for America’s decline?
Nurse!
This is a remarkable piece–not only for its clarity, but that it also exists here and will accelerate wider dissemination. I have been wondering how long it would take for Europeans to awaken to what is happening–and has been happening–to them. The article covers most of that, and for the particular rest that concerns me, I can lay that to mainstream media blackouts on discussion of this sort. BBC, Guardian, DW–they exist in a self created reality and follow a map that has little to do with the territory they describe so authoritatively.
As an American, I have been long hoping for this awakening. I have wished for it ever since Viet Nam.
My thanks to the author for being so bold and incisive.
“Europe has seen a massive fall in industrial output while governments have been forced to foot an €800 billion energy bill as a result of their decision to follow the US strategy in Ukraine.”
Rubbish. European strategy is entirely independent, though coincident, with US strategy in Ukraine. Poland, the UK, the Baltics, Sweden and Finland are not “following US strategy,” they are intensely concerned about a reckless thug state agressor to their east. They have seen this movie before, and they want Ukraine’s help to end it now. Germany has been a disappointment, history gives them a small consideration. France and Italy, well they are France and Italy.
Re: energy & its high cost – Who made the Germans shut down their nuclear facilities?
The Japanese, indirectly! It was post Fukushima that the German population got the jitters.. Where did Germany its uranium?
The Japanese, indirectly! It was post Fukushima that the German population got the jitters.. Where did Germany its uranium?
Some of us are more worried about the thug state to Europe’s west! The one that topples democratic regimes, orchestrates coups, assassinated democratically elected leaders, instals corrupt puppets, carpet bombs sovereign nations, steals their oil and other resources… or we would be if we we brown, muslim, oil rich and not cringing, cowardly vassal states.
Re: energy & its high cost – Who made the Germans shut down their nuclear facilities?
Some of us are more worried about the thug state to Europe’s west! The one that topples democratic regimes, orchestrates coups, assassinated democratically elected leaders, instals corrupt puppets, carpet bombs sovereign nations, steals their oil and other resources… or we would be if we we brown, muslim, oil rich and not cringing, cowardly vassal states.
“Europe has seen a massive fall in industrial output while governments have been forced to foot an €800 billion energy bill as a result of their decision to follow the US strategy in Ukraine.”
Rubbish. European strategy is entirely independent, though coincident, with US strategy in Ukraine. Poland, the UK, the Baltics, Sweden and Finland are not “following US strategy,” they are intensely concerned about a reckless thug state agressor to their east. They have seen this movie before, and they want Ukraine’s help to end it now. Germany has been a disappointment, history gives them a small consideration. France and Italy, well they are France and Italy.
The author it seems does not appreciate the difference between Chinese Communist authoritarianism and American principles based democracy. How very sad.
I think you’ve underscored what those principles are. We are good, they are bad, thus it follows whatever we do as foreign policy is good, and whatever they do is bad. They have a different form of government, too, and that’s bad. Anyone who diverges too far from what we consider good governance is on a par with Mad Medieval King George left over from the Dark Ages, Stalin, Mao, or our late cousin Adolf. There. Simple.
No that’s a deliberate distortion. The fact we can criticise western Govt policy freely is a pretty stark difference for a start. The MSS would be on their way round to your home already if you’d posted similar about the Chinese Govt and lived in Beijing.
..even if we accept that it us but one curtailment in the system, and indeed the US system isn’t without its murders and cancelling of dissidents ..look at Julian Assange et al!
Why mot focus on the 6 million dead at the hands of brutal US invasions, bombings, oil theft, destruction and devastation? ..or on starvation wages in the US stagnating over a 30 year period while China extracted a billion of its people out of poverty. The millions of US poor, hungry, homeless and heath service denied might be less interested in political niceties and more concerned with prosperity, housing and health care.
I mean if you want to drag a bit of history into this covering last few decades let’s make sure both sides of the accounts are filled out – Cultural revolution, genocide of Uyghars, Tibet crushed and absorbed etc etc.. I think this is what you regularly miss – balance and proportion.
The US and it’s evolving approach to capitalism and free markets some would argue is what has dragged millions out of poverty round the world and not the totalitarian regimes they had to fight to hold back in the decades post WW2 i.e: it was winning the ideological battle that’s saved lives.
It’s a debatable point.
The US has changed in one direction since WWII, China in another. And b.t.w. we thought so highly of the Uyghurs, that we assassinated two of their separatist leaders with Reaper drones in Northern Pakistan, and neutralized countless more of their followers in Afghanistan and Syria, while assisting in same in SE Asia. Until we discovered, with a change in our foreign policy, that they were oppressed freedom fighters.
The US has changed in one direction since WWII, China in another. And b.t.w. we thought so highly of the Uyghurs, that we assassinated two of their separatist leaders with Reaper drones in Northern Pakistan, and neutralized countless more of their followers in Afghanistan and Syria, while assisting in same in SE Asia. Until we discovered, with a change in our foreign policy, that they were oppressed freedom fighters.
If you compare some of the US history to China’s then you are conveniently forgetting the millions of deaths of Mao’s China, like Mao’s “Great Leap”, which starved to death approximately 35- 45 million Chinese. Also you might want to read a few books by Chinese authors, who experienced the Cultural Revolution, where you can read about the most brutal and horrific killings in human history.
Yes, China got out of its abject poverty by converting to bare boned capitalism, although limited by the Communist Party’s iron rule.
I think we’re comparing recent history, not 60 years ago. But those who appreciate the brutality of Mao’s Cultural Revolution most are the current Chinese leaders who threw out Mao and his insane wife and converted China back to capitalism – primarily Deng, whose son was rendered a paraplegic when Red Guards threw him off a university roof, and Xi. We in the West, however, now have our own version of the Great Cultural Revolution. Right now.
I think we’re comparing recent history, not 60 years ago. But those who appreciate the brutality of Mao’s Cultural Revolution most are the current Chinese leaders who threw out Mao and his insane wife and converted China back to capitalism – primarily Deng, whose son was rendered a paraplegic when Red Guards threw him off a university roof, and Xi. We in the West, however, now have our own version of the Great Cultural Revolution. Right now.
I mean if you want to drag a bit of history into this covering last few decades let’s make sure both sides of the accounts are filled out – Cultural revolution, genocide of Uyghars, Tibet crushed and absorbed etc etc.. I think this is what you regularly miss – balance and proportion.
The US and it’s evolving approach to capitalism and free markets some would argue is what has dragged millions out of poverty round the world and not the totalitarian regimes they had to fight to hold back in the decades post WW2 i.e: it was winning the ideological battle that’s saved lives.
It’s a debatable point.
If you compare some of the US history to China’s then you are conveniently forgetting the millions of deaths of Mao’s China, like Mao’s “Great Leap”, which starved to death approximately 35- 45 million Chinese. Also you might want to read a few books by Chinese authors, who experienced the Cultural Revolution, where you can read about the most brutal and horrific killings in human history.
Yes, China got out of its abject poverty by converting to bare boned capitalism, although limited by the Communist Party’s iron rule.
..even if we accept that it us but one curtailment in the system, and indeed the US system isn’t without its murders and cancelling of dissidents ..look at Julian Assange et al!
Why mot focus on the 6 million dead at the hands of brutal US invasions, bombings, oil theft, destruction and devastation? ..or on starvation wages in the US stagnating over a 30 year period while China extracted a billion of its people out of poverty. The millions of US poor, hungry, homeless and heath service denied might be less interested in political niceties and more concerned with prosperity, housing and health care.
Correct.
No that’s a deliberate distortion. The fact we can criticise western Govt policy freely is a pretty stark difference for a start. The MSS would be on their way round to your home already if you’d posted similar about the Chinese Govt and lived in Beijing.
Correct.
What’s really sad is your delusional impression of American democracy.. personally I’d never use the words ‘America and Democracy’ in the same sentence unless the word NOT was in there. What the US is good at is toppling democracies, assassinating democratically elected leaders and talking about democracy even though both Dems and GOP are bought and paid for puppets of the super rich and super powerful military industrial complex.
I think you’ve underscored what those principles are. We are good, they are bad, thus it follows whatever we do as foreign policy is good, and whatever they do is bad. They have a different form of government, too, and that’s bad. Anyone who diverges too far from what we consider good governance is on a par with Mad Medieval King George left over from the Dark Ages, Stalin, Mao, or our late cousin Adolf. There. Simple.
What’s really sad is your delusional impression of American democracy.. personally I’d never use the words ‘America and Democracy’ in the same sentence unless the word NOT was in there. What the US is good at is toppling democracies, assassinating democratically elected leaders and talking about democracy even though both Dems and GOP are bought and paid for puppets of the super rich and super powerful military industrial complex.
The author it seems does not appreciate the difference between Chinese Communist authoritarianism and American principles based democracy. How very sad.
This kind of revisionist history is always so neatly tied, like a beautiful blue bow on an empty vase. The Marshall Plan changed the world, not because of dollars and cents, but because it tied America to Europe, not the other way around. As if Europe had to be seduced by State and CIA away from the joys of Stalinist Russia—now that’s a fantasy worthy of Disney and the modern left. Russia might have won the war—as the French did in WWI—but America saved the world, and the overwhelming majority of Europeans knew it.
This kind of revisionist history is always so neatly tied, like a beautiful blue bow on an empty vase. The Marshall Plan changed the world, not because of dollars and cents, but because it tied America to Europe, not the other way around. As if Europe had to be seduced by State and CIA away from the joys of Stalinist Russia—now that’s a fantasy worthy of Disney and the modern left. Russia might have won the war—as the French did in WWI—but America saved the world, and the overwhelming majority of Europeans knew it.
” …why should Europe remain anchored to the US?”
Well, because we don’t have the luxury of many options, that’s why. We either live in a world dominated by the US, or one dominated by China or, looking further ahead, one under Sharia Law.
We have to pick a side then work, brutally if necessary, to make it happen.
” …why should Europe remain anchored to the US?”
Well, because we don’t have the luxury of many options, that’s why. We either live in a world dominated by the US, or one dominated by China or, looking further ahead, one under Sharia Law.
We have to pick a side then work, brutally if necessary, to make it happen.
Pretty funny, “we are only friends with people who give us money”.
Well, dont lose hope, you can always try to sell out to China. Maybe they will offer you 4%.
This view of Europeans as the poor cousins perpetually on the verge of asking for a loan is a very American thing. You imagine Europe with barely renovated bombed out buildings from WWI and WWII. And a West Side Story version of Italy where “evrrytink ohkay eeen Ameeerikah”. Whereas in truth it is in far better cultural, social and material shape than the US, when not being played in geopolitics that are not in its interest.
This view of Europeans as the poor cousins perpetually on the verge of asking for a loan is a very American thing. You imagine Europe with barely renovated bombed out buildings from WWI and WWII. And a West Side Story version of Italy where “evrrytink ohkay eeen Ameeerikah”. Whereas in truth it is in far better cultural, social and material shape than the US, when not being played in geopolitics that are not in its interest.
Pretty funny, “we are only friends with people who give us money”.
Well, dont lose hope, you can always try to sell out to China. Maybe they will offer you 4%.
Benevolent? ..not if you’re brown, muslim, have lots of resources and think it’s okay to refuse US hegemonyvit’s not! I’m relieved my country is (largely) white, (quasi) Christian, has few natural resources and is happy to be a vassal of the US. Otherwise we might be bombed into oblivion! Benevolent my ass!
Benevolent? ..not if you’re brown, muslim, have lots of resources and think it’s okay to refuse US hegemonyvit’s not! I’m relieved my country is (largely) white, (quasi) Christian, has few natural resources and is happy to be a vassal of the US. Otherwise we might be bombed into oblivion! Benevolent my ass!
Mr. Fazi’s comments are either ill-informed, or a conscious attempt to rewrite history, deeply influenced by hisacknowledged socialist sympathies. Point by point.
· The Marshall Plan helped rebuild Europe. Was it in America’s image? Well, yes, since the alternative had been Nazi, Fascist and Communist governments. America was deep in debt after the war, and still helped rebuild the economies of its allies and former enemies. Did the US industrial base benefit from that? Yes, because it was the only remaining industrial base left after WWII devastated Europe. Recall also that the entire US industrial base had been converted to war materiel production in order to help Europe defeat the dictators. To suggest that the Marshall Plan had little economic benefit to Europe is deluded.
· As for CIA efforts to attempt to influence the post-War political outcomes…I suspect that is true. But the communists were insurgent, and efforts to build a base for a liberal political order in Europe, as opposed to a Communist wasteland, continue to benefit Europeans to this day.
· “governments have been forced to foot an €800 billion energy bill as a result of their decision to follow the US strategy in Ukraine.” Really? It wasn’t the US that invaded a neighboring country in the biggest military operation since WWII. Many European leaders had blinded themselves to Putin’s expansionist fantasies to rebuild the Russian empire, and left themselves dependent on a country who saw export of oil and gas to Western Europe as both an economic boon to an otherwise moribund economy, as well as a political tool to exercise control over Europe. Shutting down coal and nuclear plants, prohibiting fracking and relying on Russian gas and intermittent renewable sources were a poor balance between energy security and climate objectives.
· “an opportunity to reassert its waning hegemony over Europe, first and foremost by revamping and expanding Nato.” I’m sorry, Thomas, but the US is not trying to expand NATO. NATO is responding to the request of countries bordering on Russia who want to join NATO as they witness Russian expansionism at the expense of its neighbors.
· “US actions in Ukraine have driven together its two greatest adversaries.” This is exactly backwards. US actions in Ukraine are an attempt to help the country of Ukraine survive the Russian invasion and effort to take over the country. The West’s “two greatest adversaries” are both embarked on expansionist policies, and see common cause in advancing that program. Failure to resist such expansionism in Europe contributed to WWII.
· “China hopes that its Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) will become the new economic engine of the post-Western bloc.” Most of the countries who have “benefitted” from the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative have done so with imported Chinese labor and are deep in debt to China, even as China has emphasized port construction that will provide China with a worldwide base of naval operations rather than local economic development. If Mr. Fazi objects to any US benefit from its contributions to the post-War European recovery, it is baffling that he has no concerns about Chinese motives and benefits.
· One last comment: One of the respondents to Mr. Fazi’s column offers this bit of rewritten history: “Firstly, it was the Russians who defeated Nazi Germany with minor involvement from the West in the ratio of 20:1. The US arrived very late to mop up and ensure European indebtedness to US banks.” The US did not arrive very late. The US arrived in 1941 after requests from Britain and after overcoming strong political resistance at home to US involvement in “Europe’s war.” It was only the efforts of the US and the British attacking German positions in the west and bombing the German military infrastructure that kept the Nazi war machine from overrunning Russia. The Russians suffered huge losses in the war- 11,000,000 dead – while defending their homeland from German invasion, just as the Ukrainians are suffering losses right now from the Russian invasion. The US lost almost 200,000 dead in its support of its European allies. This was a full-scale assault on the Nazi war machine. Did the Western allies’ efforts benefit from the Russians fighting on a second front against the Nazis in the east? Absolutely. But any notion that the US effort was simply a “mopping up effort” is ludicrous.
Good old Fazi, always prone to ungovernable enthusiasms and antagonisms… I would call this an article of the TDS kind. Take the scattered bits and pieces, magnify them ten fold, and then downgrade any counter evidence till you have reduced American foreign politics to the crazy equivalent of an ‘Orange Man Bad’ kind of trope.
He forgets Boris was every bit as much to blame for all this – Boris was likely the powerhouse of conviction that caused the weak, and utterly corrupt, and dottering Biden to throw everything into creating this WWIII.
This is a Boris/Biden war – Yes America has destroyed the global economy by their insane recklessness and Biden’s evil machinations for some outcome we could only guess at – but Boris was the one who squashed the first, and second, peace talks, forbidding Zalenski from making a treaty – and he had all UK waving yellow and blue flags – and Truss and Sunak and all the dreadful politicos on every side into full warmongering Cry……
Painting the story as Europe Good, America Bad, and the new world led by Russia and china as sunny uplands….NO.
The China+Russia Axis is best analogized by Lewis Carrol’s wonderful poem of the Walrus and the Carpenter; and – Brazil, Iraq, KSA, UK, Venezuela, Iran, the various EU nations, most of Africa… – all plump little oysters…..
Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more —
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.
The time has come,’ the Walrus said,
To talk of many things:
Of shoes — and ships — and sealing-wax —
Of cabbages — and kings —
And why the sea is boiling hot —
And whether pigs have wings.’
But wait a bit,’ the Oysters cried,
Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!’
No hurry!’ said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.
A loaf of bread,’ the Walrus said,
Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed —
Now if you’re ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed.’
But not on us!’ the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!’
The night is fine,’ the Walrus said.
Do you admire the view?
It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!’
The Carpenter said nothing but
Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf —
I’ve had to ask you twice!’
It seems a shame,’ the Walrus said,
To play them such a trick,
After we’ve brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!’
The Carpenter said nothing but
The butter’s spread too thick!’
I weep for you,’ the Walrus said:
I deeply sympathize.’
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.
O Oysters,’ said the Carpenter,
You’ve had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?’
But answer came there none —
And this was scarcely odd, because
They’d eaten every one.”
Good old Fazi, always prone to ungovernable enthusiasms and antagonisms… I would call this an article of the TDS kind. Take the scattered bits and pieces, magnify them ten fold, and then downgrade any counter evidence till you have reduced American foreign politics to the crazy equivalent of an ‘Orange Man Bad’ kind of trope.
He forgets Boris was every bit as much to blame for all this – Boris was likely the powerhouse of conviction that caused the weak, and utterly corrupt, and dottering Biden to throw everything into creating this WWIII.
This is a Boris/Biden war – Yes America has destroyed the global economy by their insane recklessness and Biden’s evil machinations for some outcome we could only guess at – but Boris was the one who squashed the first, and second, peace talks, forbidding Zalenski from making a treaty – and he had all UK waving yellow and blue flags – and Truss and Sunak and all the dreadful politicos on every side into full warmongering Cry……
Painting the story as Europe Good, America Bad, and the new world led by Russia and china as sunny uplands….NO.
The China+Russia Axis is best analogized by Lewis Carrol’s wonderful poem of the Walrus and the Carpenter; and – Brazil, Iraq, KSA, UK, Venezuela, Iran, the various EU nations, most of Africa… – all plump little oysters…..
Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more —
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.
The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.
The time has come,’ the Walrus said,
To talk of many things:
Of shoes — and ships — and sealing-wax —
Of cabbages — and kings —
And why the sea is boiling hot —
And whether pigs have wings.’
But wait a bit,’ the Oysters cried,
Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!’
No hurry!’ said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.
A loaf of bread,’ the Walrus said,
Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed —
Now if you’re ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed.’
But not on us!’ the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!’
The night is fine,’ the Walrus said.
Do you admire the view?
It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!’
The Carpenter said nothing but
Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf —
I’ve had to ask you twice!’
It seems a shame,’ the Walrus said,
To play them such a trick,
After we’ve brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!’
The Carpenter said nothing but
The butter’s spread too thick!’
I weep for you,’ the Walrus said:
I deeply sympathize.’
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.
O Oysters,’ said the Carpenter,
You’ve had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?’
But answer came there none —
And this was scarcely odd, because
They’d eaten every one.”
Q: “In this context, why should Europe remain anchored to the US?”
A: Because European countries, still all wedded (to varying degrees, Britain obviously leading the way here) to dreams of 19th century go-it-alone nationalism, are incapable of being sufficiently united to have a common army.
Isn’t it a poor reflection on the word ‘united’ when your first and only thought on the concept is having an army? There are other indications of unity you know?
Isn’t it a poor reflection on the word ‘united’ when your first and only thought on the concept is having an army? There are other indications of unity you know?
Q: “In this context, why should Europe remain anchored to the US?”
A: Because European countries, still all wedded (to varying degrees, Britain obviously leading the way here) to dreams of 19th century go-it-alone nationalism, are incapable of being sufficiently united to have a common army.
Thanks for your report. we yanks always knew, deep down, that it couldn’t last forever.
But on the other hand, consider this: Do you think that Vladimir Putin is showing himself to be a team player?
On the Eastern outlook, the connection with China makes perfect sense. . . always has, ever since Marco Polo, or whatever.
I think we Americans–especially those of us who remember Eisenhower’s initiative to develop the Interstate Highway System– will attest that there is much to be gained in building thoroughfares between, say, Athens and Beijing. . . prolably a lot of jobs there for western Asia workers and Euro electric-car manufacturers.
And, after the dust settles, and Vlad comes to his senses.. a road from Kyiv to . . . Bangkok?
Thanks for your report. we yanks always knew, deep down, that it couldn’t last forever.
But on the other hand, consider this: Do you think that Vladimir Putin is showing himself to be a team player?
On the Eastern outlook, the connection with China makes perfect sense. . . always has, ever since Marco Polo, or whatever.
I think we Americans–especially those of us who remember Eisenhower’s initiative to develop the Interstate Highway System– will attest that there is much to be gained in building thoroughfares between, say, Athens and Beijing. . . prolably a lot of jobs there for western Asia workers and Euro electric-car manufacturers.
And, after the dust settles, and Vlad comes to his senses.. a road from Kyiv to . . . Bangkok?
100% correct.
Hilarious – what sort of mindset gives a downvote?
Mine for one..
What a card you are Liam. A man of so few words.
What a card you are Liam. A man of so few words.
Mine for one..
Hilarious – what sort of mindset gives a downvote?
100% correct.