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The madness behind the battle for Bakhmut Russian troops are dying in their thousands here

A civilian in Bakhmut last month (DIMITAR DILKOFF/AFP via Getty Images)

A civilian in Bakhmut last month (DIMITAR DILKOFF/AFP via Getty Images)


February 6, 2023   8 mins

“The objective for today is to come back alive.” Yevgeny is a young commando from the “Mad Pack”, a special forces unit that has been fighting in Bakhmut since November. His words are familiar — lacquered with that mix of emotions common to almost all soldiers fighting on the frontlines of war: laughter and unease. We clamber into a Land Cruiser and head toward the city. “The situation is always changing,” he continues. “But one thing remains the same: the line of contact is always active.”

Even by the standards of eastern Ukraine, Bakhmut is a hellscape of destruction. Electricity has been out since August and water since October. Rows of uniform Soviet-style buildings now resemble a series of ragged molars, mottled by shells and blackened with soot.

The streets of this city that once had a population of 70,000 are almost empty of civilians, save for the odd elderly man or woman who ambles past amid the constant drum of nearby shelling. Everywhere I look I see soldiers: standing guard, advancing forwards, taking cover, congregating in doorways and behind walls, and almost always smoking. Our first port of call is a mosque. A small squat rectangular box that could be a normal house save for a small golden dome on its roof. Kazbek, a Chechen soldier fighting for Ukraine, who is our guide with Yevgeny, gets out of the car and goes to pray, bowing to Mecca as shells explode around us.

If you want to discover the madness of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, come to Bakhmut. The battle for the city is now the longest of the war. Russia launched a large offensive to try to take it in July 2022 after it took Severodonetsk, the final major city of the Luhansk region. The truth is Russian troops are dying in their thousands here — and possibly for nothing. The UK Ministry of Defence has outlined Bakhmut’s “limited operational value”: the city’s fall would be useful, but by no means decisive, in helping Russia press further through the Donbas. The fight, therefore, has become almost symbolic. “Bakhmut holds” is now a rallying cry for Ukrainians.

We advance further into the city. I see my first civilian vehicle: a minibus covered in grime, onto which someone has painted a white cross. Then we see an old man walking on the pavement. Yevgeny asks why he hasn’t left. “Where would I go?” he responds. He tells me that he lives with some friends in the city and has a stove and a basement to hide in. We turn a corner, and the Land Cruiser skids across the wet and pitted road. “The full contact front is just there,” says Yevgeny, pointing. Kazbek explains what this means: “The Russians are just 200 metres down that road. Tomorrow, I will come back and kill them.”

Shelling is a constant refrain in Bakhmut. But this close it’s different. Shells whistle around me, deep throaty roars that crescendo to a colossal bang as they strike home. “Now the Russians are attacking Ukrainian positions from three sides,” says Kazbek by way of explanation. We climb back into the Land Cruiser and drive into what appears to be a fenced-off wasteland right by the line of contact. On a wall some graffiti reads, “the republic of Ichkeria [Chechnya] will be free. Russians will be dead.” A lone cyclist comes into view. “Stupid,” says Yevgeny.

We drive out into what is left of the main road, until we stop by the city’s monument of a MIG 17 fighter jet. “This used to be a famous Instagram spot,” says my photographer Nata. I recently sprained my ankle so I am hobbling slightly, though my support boot means I can walk almost normally. I pose by the plane, resting gingerly on my foot. Kazbek laughs. I remember his words when we met: “I’ve never seen anyone come to the front with a crutch before.

Eventually, Kazbek decides it’s time to return to base. “There are,” he excitedly explains, “two roads to get out. The one that is constantly shelled much more interesting, so let’s take that!” Nata looks less than impressed. As we drive down the road, I see holes carved out by shells and burned-out vehicles. War zones can assume many shapes: sometimes they’re cratered and grey like the surface of the moon; other times they are just a mesh of urban destruction. Bakhmut resembles the bottom of the ocean, the tangled vehicles like metal crustaceans hugging the seabed, silent witnesses to it all.

***

The Mad Pack live in a base swaddled in concrete where they spend most of their lives underground to avoid the shelling. It’s a no-frills affair. My bed is a door laid on the concrete floor with a sleeping bag on it, while Nata sleeps on a plastic waterbed to my right. We are divided by a anti-tank Javelin case. In the corner of the room stands one of the many NLAWs that Britain has delivered to Ukraine. “God bless the United Kingdom; God bless Boris Johnson!” says Kazbek to me as we pose with one.

The night before we entered Bakhmut, I met “Ivan”, the unit’s commander, whose call sign is Coyote. We were in an underground room amid piles of cardboard boxes, a mound of firewood, a wooden stove of the kind you see everywhere on the front in Ukraine and, the focal point of the room, a chess set that the soldiers take turns to use. Coyote is 34 and has been fighting since the war began in 2014. His unit is Special Forces, he says. He can’t give me details about their operations, but he has two units on rotation. His main tasks are planning and special ops — taking the fight to the enemy.

Bakhmut is important to Russia because of Putin’s “populist needs”, he says. “Since February 24, the Russians have had few victories and many defeats. They need this victory; the city is close to the border and to their logistics. They cannot attack Kherson [in the south] because of the river, and in other territories on the front lines they have supply problems. Bakhmut is the only spot where theoretically they can win. But if we were to lose Bakhmut, then speaking without emotion, it would not be a strategic defeat, we’d just lose a town. But in the meantime, we tie up a large force of Russians so they cannot proceed in other areas. We buy time for other Ukrainian forces.”

The situation is difficult, he admits, but controlled. The Ukrainians have suffered significant losses, as have the enemy. “They are going building-by-building. They are trying to encircle us; they keep trying again and again.”

The Russian tactics are based on what I hear described as “meat waves” of soldiers, usually conscripts or prisoners fighting for the Wagner mercenary group who are promised a pardon in the unlikely event they survive more than six months here. The Ukrainians often wipe them out. But more always come. It’s the downside of fighting an enemy with a population three times the size and little regard for the lives of its citizens. “The waves can unnerve the new guys,” says Coyote. “They destroy the first one and then more keep coming; they start to think it will never end. The experienced guys just swap their rifle for a machine gun and it’s all good!”

But the fight is tough. Russian forces have now secured northern access to the city and also recently made a breakthrough on the south towards the centre. They have surrounded the town and have fire control of the only road out. Coyote, though, remains bullish. From November to the beginning of January, the Ukrainians lost about 10 positions; since then, they have lost only four. “The artillery and drones are working,” he says. I ask him about their use of drones, the biggest change in the war since I was here last in the spring. Coyote smiles, gets up and returns, grinning even more, with a small blue object — a six-inch rocket with three fins topped with a golden dome. “We make it on a 3D printer. It costs about $30,” he tells me with pride. “We fill it with explosives, and then put it in one of our drones
 and drop.”

One of the other officers, who gave his name as his call sign “Barman”, explains their importance. “A while ago we used big, expensive tactical drones, made especially for the military,” he tells me. “But now, small and medium-sized civilian drones are becoming separate military units because they can cause great damage to the enemy.”

He continues. “It used to take months, sometimes years, to train people to go into enemy territory and send in the coordinates for the artillery to fire. Now, one civilian drone can do it. It saves lives and even if it gets destroyed you can buy a new one cheaply. We have learned how to attach small grenades and bombs to them. Now we can send up a small $3,000 Mavik 3 with a grenade — and if you drop it perfectly on a T-90 you can take out a tank that costs millions.” His words bring home a truth that has gradually dawned on me over the past few years. Talk of future war tends to be dominated by AI and visions of marauding robot soldiers, but what I see here is something different: the weaponisation of the quotidian. Cheap drones you can buy online, and plastic projectiles you can knock out on a printer in your living room, are now affecting the balance of power in conflict.

Coyote gives me his final assessment. “I think the battle will continue for about one or two months unless there is a major encirclement or something unexpected happens — it will go street by street; the artillery will slowly destroy all the tall buildings and it will [descend to] urban warfare. It will crawl to an end.” As we finish, I ask him what he would say to Putin if he were here now. “One second,” he says and gets up. He returns with a pistol and pulls the trigger. Its click reverberates around the room. “I’d say nothing — just kill him.”

Later, Coyote is in a playful mood. “What we sometimes also do,” he tells me, “is drop dildos from the drones, just to show them the contempt we have for them. Also, it’s a taste of what’s coming to them — how we’re going to fuck them.” I ask what happens if they hit a Russian soldier on the head. Everyone laughs. Coyote, still looking mischievous, describes how they sometimes find lists of “heroic deaths” written on the walls of Russian positions they capture. “You know, they have a photo of the guy and under it ‘Vlad was killed by a Bayraktar’ and so on
. Imagine: ‘Here lies Sergei — he was killed by a massive cock.’”

***

Dinner is served. In a bucket on the floor, Kazbek washes his hands, observing Muslim custom. In the kitchen, an older man carrying a large knife, which is definitely not designed for cooking, hands me a bowl of soup. Our meal is laid out on a long table: eggs, tomato with grated cheese, cold chicken, pancake rolls, sausages, several plates of bread, a potato salad, egg with garlic, another plate of cold meats, and a plate of sliced lemon. All this comes from Ukrainian volunteers, adds Kazbek.

Yevgeny interrupts the meal to show us his war wounds. He gets out his phone and opens Instagram. A photo shows him with two pieces of shrapnel, one each in his head and leg. He explains how he posted the image and then blocked all his relatives from seeing it. “It happened on the first day of the war — 24 February! You know the funniest thing? That’s also my birthday. From now on
 it’s two birthdays for me!”

Dinner ends and the soldiers leave to wind down. Me and Nata are left. She’s been discussing the cultural aspect of the war with Yevgeny and Kazbek because it’s a war not just against Ukrainian territory but against its very essence as a nation. Putin says there is no such thing as Ukraine, which means everything from its language to its history and literature must be denied. “For years we were told Ukrainian was just for peasants and Russian was for the sophisticated,” she says. “I see Russians and they can barely speak it. I can live without ​​Dostoevsky. Look at Crime and Punishment, Raskolnikoff kills an old woman for money and then spends the entire book trying to work out why he did it. I’ll tell you why he did it: because he’s trash.”

After dinner, we sit in the communal area. I look around at these men, some of whom have been fighting for almost a decade. They are tired but undiminished: this fight is existential for them. Tendrils of cigarette smoke curl towards the ceiling. The soft shuffle of moving chess pieces is almost finished. Kazbek has composed a song about Bakhmut. Yevgeny gets out a guitar and starts to sing.

Bakhmut, Bakhmut you are so proud and so brave
you left your mark on fate.
Bakhmut Bakhmut, the enemy has come leaving ruin
But we are all waiting

for a new dawn in Ukraine.


David Patrikarakos is UnHerd‘s foreign correspondent. His latest book is War in 140 characters: how social media is reshaping conflict in the 21st century. (Hachette)

dpatrikarakos

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Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago

Thanks for the front line coverage. It resonates.

Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
1 year ago

“It resonates”
I think you mean ‘It reverberates- conclusively’, the drumbeat of modern war.

Persephone
Persephone
1 year ago

If by “resonates” you mean “reads like pro-Nazi, anti-Russian propaganda and outright lies” then I agree. If any of you want a more accurate idea of what’s going on in this war, try “the duran” for some more evidence-based commentary.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

It is a truly revolting article – and when your post was the only one here I wrote a long one explaining why – nothing offensive, but naturally it is deleted – the heads at Unherd are no different than any MSM in reality. Total Pu** ies and too afraid of free speech to go against the agenda.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

IOW, the only “free speech” is YOUR speech.
All else is controlled by the MSM.
You DO know where that comes from don’t you? And where it leads?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Garbage!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I think you are flagging it. You are a right pain in the arse.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Free speech is “a pain the arse,” isn’t it?
If yours was the only voice we would all be happy.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Problem is mate, you are the one that thinks it shouldnt be allowed. That only your comments should be allowed. I haven’t ever flagged or complained to unherd about you. I’ve never flagged anyone.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Problem is mate, you are the one that thinks it shouldnt be allowed. That only your comments should be allowed. I haven’t ever flagged or complained to unherd about you. I’ve never flagged anyone.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Free speech is “a pain the arse,” isn’t it?
If yours was the only voice we would all be happy.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Garbage!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I think you are flagging it. You are a right pain in the arse.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Whereas you are a fighter for truth and peace–and anyone who brings up inconvenient facts is a troll.
One alternative might be to address the issues raised, and stop the accusations.
Just a suggestion…

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Everytime I do that you resort to telling me you have no choice but to attack and me and wolfowitz will be happy together. You can’t have a sensible conversation. You have said awful stuff about both ukrainians and Russians.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Everytime I do that you resort to telling me you have no choice but to attack and me and wolfowitz will be happy together. You can’t have a sensible conversation. You have said awful stuff about both ukrainians and Russians.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

IOW, the only “free speech” is YOUR speech.
All else is controlled by the MSM.
You DO know where that comes from don’t you? And where it leads?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Whereas you are a fighter for truth and peace–and anyone who brings up inconvenient facts is a troll.
One alternative might be to address the issues raised, and stop the accusations.
Just a suggestion…

M VC14
M VC14
1 year ago

“Russian troops are dying in their thousands”
And from what I’ve read elsewhere (not Russian propaganda) Ukrainian troops are dying in their tens of thousands.
The real story is here, but unintentionally. There’s the fact a brave (or mad) journalist was able to get to Bakhmut.
“Russia is attacking on three sides” – in other words, the Russians almost surround the city.
“Bakhmut has no operational significance” – then why defend it?
Anyone who has listened to the knowledgeable on Russia’s approach, knows that they favour creating “cauldrons”. Bakhmut appears to be one example.
And while the Russians create their cauldron at the speed of molasses they use artillery to annihilate Ukraine’s youth. Those that still remain in Ukraine at least.
“The Russians need this victory”
Not really. The Russians are using Bakhmut to entice Ukraine to send more troops to a place with “no operational significance” in order to destroy Ukraine’s remaining forces, prior to a late winter/early spring offensive.
Between 500,000 and 700,000 Russian troops have been assembled in three locations around Ukraine ready for their final onslaught. Bakhmut is a side-show.
This war, as with all others, is filled with propaganda and lies. For example, I heard recently from a previously trusted source, that Zelensky couldn’t even speak Ukrainian before he became President. Surely that can’t be true.

Rupert Steel
Rupert Steel
1 year ago
Reply to  M VC14

It really doesn’t matter how many troops Russia assembles. From the very start of Putin’s war, the incompetence of the Russian military leadership ensures their defeat. The Russian general staff are incapable of planning large-scale manoeuvre operations using combined arms. We’re already seeing a precursor to a Russian civil war through the interplay and tensions between the Russian Army and Wagner. Anyway, the Russians seem to have run out of T72s and are resorting to a mix of T62s and a very few much later T90s. Without tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, poorly trained men armed only with AK 47s have absolutely no chance of survival, they will just be scythed down. As this writer sees it, the risk to the well-equipped and well-trained Ukrainians comes from their psychological ability to continue with the slaughter. German formations in WW2 would collapse after being subjected to up to five Soviet assaults with horrific casualties on the Red Army side. Even the battle-hardened Wehrmacht simply couldn’t take it. For us in the West, the profligacy of the Russian leadership with their manpower is inconceivable and utterly shocking. All this from a country with a declining population as a result of a birth-rate below replacement. No wonder the Russians are estimated to have stolen large numbers of Ukrainian children. The Russians are covering their own losses in anticipation. Totally amoral and totally cynical.

Rupert Steel
Rupert Steel
1 year ago
Reply to  M VC14

It really doesn’t matter how many troops Russia assembles. From the very start of Putin’s war, the incompetence of the Russian military leadership ensures their defeat. The Russian general staff are incapable of planning large-scale manoeuvre operations using combined arms. We’re already seeing a precursor to a Russian civil war through the interplay and tensions between the Russian Army and Wagner. Anyway, the Russians seem to have run out of T72s and are resorting to a mix of T62s and a very few much later T90s. Without tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, poorly trained men armed only with AK 47s have absolutely no chance of survival, they will just be scythed down. As this writer sees it, the risk to the well-equipped and well-trained Ukrainians comes from their psychological ability to continue with the slaughter. German formations in WW2 would collapse after being subjected to up to five Soviet assaults with horrific casualties on the Red Army side. Even the battle-hardened Wehrmacht simply couldn’t take it. For us in the West, the profligacy of the Russian leadership with their manpower is inconceivable and utterly shocking. All this from a country with a declining population as a result of a birth-rate below replacement. No wonder the Russians are estimated to have stolen large numbers of Ukrainian children. The Russians are covering their own losses in anticipation. Totally amoral and totally cynical.

George Georgiadis
George Georgiadis
1 year ago

lies and huge propaganda against Russia from a greek american “patriot” of the most warlike country in the world!! USA= participates in 80% of the wars in Latin America and in the world….toppled governments and prepared coups in hundreds countries…worst propaganda since the Vietnam era!!! ..in the first place, what do the residents, the people in eastern-southern-coastal Ukraine want???..look and thnk at the results of the presidential elections 2004 or 2010… :comment image or look with percentages 95% 85% 65% what the people of the south-coastal-eastern Ukraine and Crimea want :comment image …before the armed fascist American coup d’Ă©tat of 2014, where the right-wing nationalist right-Nazi alliance took power….like Poland-Baltics, 11 parties were banned (all left-wing, communist .. pro-Russian with the biggest party before 2014 !!!.. there are no more free elections .. only pro-American parties participate in the electoral game…) .. but Ukraine is neither Poland nor the Baltics .. not even Hungary ….. in eastern southern Ukraine there are a majority of Russians .. but also Ukrainian leftists, democrats .. anti-fascist Ukrainians ….in Ukraine there is a civil war from 2014 with 14,000 dead and 1,500,000 refugees …most eastern Ukrainians and southern Ukrainians (leftists, communists, general democrats, anti-fascists, Russians or Russian-speakers. Greeks,Μayars , national minorities, etc.) .. … the extreme right, anti-Russian, nationalist rulers in the country after the armed coup in Ukraine in 2014 we do not have free democratic elections but the US nationalist puppets ruled … the extreme right, anti-Russian, nationalist rulers in the country …. they expelled all the old officers – civil servants and placed young people everywhere with a qualification: they are nationalists – members of far-right groups ..in the army, in the state, in the diplomatic corps, in the municipalities ..everywhere ……the solution was: the Minsk Peace Agreement 2015 under the auspices of Germany-France-Russia …. did not sign it – it was abotaged by the US-England and their puppets….sabotage the Minsk Peace Accords 2015 ( the Minsk Agreement 2 : 1) free local elections with all parties (11 parties are banned after 2014) 2) federations in as many areas as they want = more democracies 3) neutralization = more money for society) … far-right nationalists ucranians for 8 years they built huge fortifications, cities fortresses with American money, American aid and know-how ….. For 8 years far-right nationalists could save peace and country but they obeyed the interests of the USAs WASPs …for 8 years oppress, torture, kill left-wing Ukrainians, Russians, Russian-speakers and minorities !! dozens of political prisoners labeled traitors or spies or communists or dissidents !! and all this with the blessings of the West !! for 8 years huge economic disaster for the Ukrainian economy …. 1 in 2 ucrainians workers left abroad (10 million, 1.2 million in Russia and 8 million in the west) ..and yet they continued the small war 2014-2021 and built hundreds fortress and fortifications !!!usefulle far-right nationalists ucranians destroyed their own homeland, destroyed since 2014 the unity of a united Ukraine!…. Ukrainians weren’t fighting for their homeland…The separatists of eastern-southern-coastal Ukraine were fighting for their homeland!!..a Ukrainian soldier is coming from hundreds of kilometers away (Lvov-DÎżnietsk) 1,000 km distance!!!!! …the war is taking place in pro-Russian cities, villages, regions!!! the separatists were fighting, they are destroying their cities, their villages, their jobs..their properties..their children are in danger!!!…the Ukrainians are oppresser..occupation forces!!!! ..who will pay war reparations for the pro-Russian cities, villages, regions of the Autonomists?dangerous useful idiots who brought us closer to a world nuclear war … usefulle far-right nationalists criminals I have relatives in Ukraine … I expected from 2016 that Russia would intervene … I knew from the inside but I watched what was happening in Ukraine !!!..crimes, huge fear, a theater of absurdity as the Americans understand democracy (Latin style America-South Vietnam-South Korea-Taiwan etc) … how many Orthodox priests of the Patriarchate of Moscow have the nationalists murdered ???….only in the last months of 2022, 53 priests are in prison with the accusations of being above her of Russia and against the politics (nationalism) of the Kiev regime…..the Americans here too are lying but they are also the murderers…their purpose???…..to bleed, to weaken Russia, to exist hatred and blood between brotherly peoples and to subjugate all of Europe politically and economically (Germany-France, etc.)

Last edited 1 year ago by George Georgiadis
Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
1 year ago

“It resonates”
I think you mean ‘It reverberates- conclusively’, the drumbeat of modern war.

Persephone
Persephone
1 year ago

If by “resonates” you mean “reads like pro-Nazi, anti-Russian propaganda and outright lies” then I agree. If any of you want a more accurate idea of what’s going on in this war, try “the duran” for some more evidence-based commentary.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

It is a truly revolting article – and when your post was the only one here I wrote a long one explaining why – nothing offensive, but naturally it is deleted – the heads at Unherd are no different than any MSM in reality. Total Pu** ies and too afraid of free speech to go against the agenda.

M VC14
M VC14
1 year ago

“Russian troops are dying in their thousands”
And from what I’ve read elsewhere (not Russian propaganda) Ukrainian troops are dying in their tens of thousands.
The real story is here, but unintentionally. There’s the fact a brave (or mad) journalist was able to get to Bakhmut.
“Russia is attacking on three sides” – in other words, the Russians almost surround the city.
“Bakhmut has no operational significance” – then why defend it?
Anyone who has listened to the knowledgeable on Russia’s approach, knows that they favour creating “cauldrons”. Bakhmut appears to be one example.
And while the Russians create their cauldron at the speed of molasses they use artillery to annihilate Ukraine’s youth. Those that still remain in Ukraine at least.
“The Russians need this victory”
Not really. The Russians are using Bakhmut to entice Ukraine to send more troops to a place with “no operational significance” in order to destroy Ukraine’s remaining forces, prior to a late winter/early spring offensive.
Between 500,000 and 700,000 Russian troops have been assembled in three locations around Ukraine ready for their final onslaught. Bakhmut is a side-show.
This war, as with all others, is filled with propaganda and lies. For example, I heard recently from a previously trusted source, that Zelensky couldn’t even speak Ukrainian before he became President. Surely that can’t be true.

George Georgiadis
George Georgiadis
1 year ago

lies and huge propaganda against Russia from a greek american “patriot” of the most warlike country in the world!! USA= participates in 80% of the wars in Latin America and in the world….toppled governments and prepared coups in hundreds countries…worst propaganda since the Vietnam era!!! ..in the first place, what do the residents, the people in eastern-southern-coastal Ukraine want???..look and thnk at the results of the presidential elections 2004 or 2010… :comment image or look with percentages 95% 85% 65% what the people of the south-coastal-eastern Ukraine and Crimea want :comment image …before the armed fascist American coup d’Ă©tat of 2014, where the right-wing nationalist right-Nazi alliance took power….like Poland-Baltics, 11 parties were banned (all left-wing, communist .. pro-Russian with the biggest party before 2014 !!!.. there are no more free elections .. only pro-American parties participate in the electoral game…) .. but Ukraine is neither Poland nor the Baltics .. not even Hungary ….. in eastern southern Ukraine there are a majority of Russians .. but also Ukrainian leftists, democrats .. anti-fascist Ukrainians ….in Ukraine there is a civil war from 2014 with 14,000 dead and 1,500,000 refugees …most eastern Ukrainians and southern Ukrainians (leftists, communists, general democrats, anti-fascists, Russians or Russian-speakers. Greeks,Μayars , national minorities, etc.) .. … the extreme right, anti-Russian, nationalist rulers in the country after the armed coup in Ukraine in 2014 we do not have free democratic elections but the US nationalist puppets ruled … the extreme right, anti-Russian, nationalist rulers in the country …. they expelled all the old officers – civil servants and placed young people everywhere with a qualification: they are nationalists – members of far-right groups ..in the army, in the state, in the diplomatic corps, in the municipalities ..everywhere ……the solution was: the Minsk Peace Agreement 2015 under the auspices of Germany-France-Russia …. did not sign it – it was abotaged by the US-England and their puppets….sabotage the Minsk Peace Accords 2015 ( the Minsk Agreement 2 : 1) free local elections with all parties (11 parties are banned after 2014) 2) federations in as many areas as they want = more democracies 3) neutralization = more money for society) … far-right nationalists ucranians for 8 years they built huge fortifications, cities fortresses with American money, American aid and know-how ….. For 8 years far-right nationalists could save peace and country but they obeyed the interests of the USAs WASPs …for 8 years oppress, torture, kill left-wing Ukrainians, Russians, Russian-speakers and minorities !! dozens of political prisoners labeled traitors or spies or communists or dissidents !! and all this with the blessings of the West !! for 8 years huge economic disaster for the Ukrainian economy …. 1 in 2 ucrainians workers left abroad (10 million, 1.2 million in Russia and 8 million in the west) ..and yet they continued the small war 2014-2021 and built hundreds fortress and fortifications !!!usefulle far-right nationalists ucranians destroyed their own homeland, destroyed since 2014 the unity of a united Ukraine!…. Ukrainians weren’t fighting for their homeland…The separatists of eastern-southern-coastal Ukraine were fighting for their homeland!!..a Ukrainian soldier is coming from hundreds of kilometers away (Lvov-DÎżnietsk) 1,000 km distance!!!!! …the war is taking place in pro-Russian cities, villages, regions!!! the separatists were fighting, they are destroying their cities, their villages, their jobs..their properties..their children are in danger!!!…the Ukrainians are oppresser..occupation forces!!!! ..who will pay war reparations for the pro-Russian cities, villages, regions of the Autonomists?dangerous useful idiots who brought us closer to a world nuclear war … usefulle far-right nationalists criminals I have relatives in Ukraine … I expected from 2016 that Russia would intervene … I knew from the inside but I watched what was happening in Ukraine !!!..crimes, huge fear, a theater of absurdity as the Americans understand democracy (Latin style America-South Vietnam-South Korea-Taiwan etc) … how many Orthodox priests of the Patriarchate of Moscow have the nationalists murdered ???….only in the last months of 2022, 53 priests are in prison with the accusations of being above her of Russia and against the politics (nationalism) of the Kiev regime…..the Americans here too are lying but they are also the murderers…their purpose???…..to bleed, to weaken Russia, to exist hatred and blood between brotherly peoples and to subjugate all of Europe politically and economically (Germany-France, etc.)

Last edited 1 year ago by George Georgiadis
Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago

Thanks for the front line coverage. It resonates.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

To me, this was a worthwhile peek inside the eye of the storm. The article is quite openly biased, as a piece of embedded journalism, or any non-fringe Western view of this conflict is likely to be. I’m fine with that. I could access ultra-right-wing media or even Russian propaganda for “balance” if I were so inclined and had better firewalls on my pc.
Or I can be exposed to some offshoot of Russian State TV by certain prominent commenters here. Why is it that those of a nationalistic or even Western Chauvinist bent are often such easy fans of this Soviet-revivalist Russian regime? (I think I’m correct to find significant overlap there). Is it part of a reflexive opposition to any stance that is seen as mainstream or liberal/progressive?
Certainly this war is hellish and not really good for anyone, and this article doesn’t run from that, sympathetic bias notwithstanding. But this fight is undoubtedly, understandably–and by demonstrated sacrifice and valor (on the whole)–preferable to non-existence from a Ukrainian perspective. And Russia could end this tomorrow without any threat to its military, legitimate sovereignty, or status as the geographically largest nation on the globe. The only increased threat would be, perhaps, to Putin himself, who would have been better off even from a calculating, self-interested point-of-view if he’d let this one go to begin with.

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“Russia could end this tomorrow without any threat to its military, legitimate sovereignty, or status…”
The same could be said about NATO and America as well. Thirty years of warnings that Ukraine was the red line have been brushed aside by the West, and this is the provocation that has produced Putin’s response. To see this, one would have to understand that the Imperial West cannot be trusted. Our own history of multiple invasions and regime change efforts–let alone the colonialist history of key EU states–confirms this. There is no innocent intent when it comes to the deceptions and bad behavior on the part of this western Offensive (not defensive) alliance.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

No. Ending it on the Ukraine-Western side means the end of Ukraine in any meaningful sense. Ending it from the Russian side means the non-increase (or in their view, non-recovery) of Russian soil, stopping the bloodbath and helping to curtail Putin’s imperial ambitions. It is Putin who has brushed aside warnings and miscalculated. Let him have this one you seem to say, in the interest of a tense a servile peace. How about the next one?
Yes, the US has an imperial past and present but it hasn’t annexed territory since 1898. And when we go into places around the globe and try to control or “Americanize” them more recently that doesn’t really work out well in the long run does it? This intervention is a far more legitimate defense of Western interests or Ukrainian national sovereignty than the weak pretense of Kuwaiti sovereignty made for Desert Storm in 1990. Or of mostly-futile nation-building efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere.
I’d like to know from some/any among the multitude of anti-Ukraine-intervention voices here: Are you just against intervention, or actively rooting for a decrease in US world power and consequent increase in the power of Russia and China?
Because I’m not an unqualified supporter of American power and influence, but I’ll take it over the plausible alternatives.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Geez.. you guys are suckers for the MSM.. the US has effectively annexed almost every nation on Earth (except the BRICS) via neo liberalism.. much easier than neocolonialism in turn much easier than colonialism..
Don’t you find it odd that while you are happy to stay with American hegemony the BRICS nations, most of Africa, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and now much of Latin America have had enough!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Wow, so when the EU does things the US doesn’t like, or the UK doesn’t, it’s all just a conspiracy to hide the fact the US pulls the all strings.
And this ingenious master mind who controls most of the first world is…
Joe Biden?!?

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If you prefer BRICS, why aren’t you living in one of them? I love how these people living in North America and Europe are so against their own countries, but wouldn’t dream of living in the ones they promote all the time as a better alternative. DUH.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Wow, so when the EU does things the US doesn’t like, or the UK doesn’t, it’s all just a conspiracy to hide the fact the US pulls the all strings.
And this ingenious master mind who controls most of the first world is…
Joe Biden?!?

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If you prefer BRICS, why aren’t you living in one of them? I love how these people living in North America and Europe are so against their own countries, but wouldn’t dream of living in the ones they promote all the time as a better alternative. DUH.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I have a very conflicted view to all this. Let me try and lay it out. Because I have been pretty anti us. But I have also been anti russia and China. So.
I’m pissed at the us for its lies over Iraq, im slightly aggravated by the fact its multinationals have made a lot of money in China, we have off shored everything there and now all of a sudden its no good, we must stop dealing with them. A bit like the Russian energy. Same idea. Let’s do it, actually no. That’s going to cause carnage. All you old people have bought Chinese goods then turn round to young people and say actually no, we’ve given the crazy communists too much money and we must fight them. OK. Great, thanks guys.
I don’t like how your fbi etc censor twitter etc etc I don’t like the way you just constantly use qe as an answer.
Next. The ccp could well be responsible for covid, are probably as dodgy as every b*gger else just like the Russians. I am also very sceptical of their intentions.
If your a millennial all this is very confusing. Lies everywhere on all sides. Collapsing the current global order is f*cking worrying. Some people, like my good self just are wondering if actually we could all calm down, try and find some understanding on all sides and deal with the power balance change without escalation towards nuclear conflict. You know. That’s all really. There is a few points to say the us hasn’t helped the situation. That’s not to say that the ccp and Russia aren’t also merrily causing carnage. Tbh they’re all at it and Europe is stuck in the middle, wondering how long until they all kick off properly and how bad it’s likely to be. In my humble opinion.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I’m actually pretty sympathetic to most of these points, although I don’t share all your demographics as a 50-ish male American born in Canada.
I’d like Europe to help lead the way to a less contentious world order, if possible. But most of the outspoken commenters here are, if not straight up rah rah pro-Brexit, suspicious of anything Continental or multi-lateral that seems to threaten local pubs and restaurants, familiar population makeup, etc. I’m not saying there aren’t complex and valid reasons to reject membership in the EU. But it’s a bit much to be a roaring Little England Brexiteer and then talk about the critical imperative of taming the American Beast (whenever such commenters are the same people-I admit I sometimes lose track).
The above is not meant to refer to your own views, and I’m not sure where you stand on all the recurring, ongoing world and UK-specific issues that come up here. I have noticed that you’re not easy to pin at one place on the political-cultural-philosophical spectrum, which I respect. I often disagree with you but can only conclude that your a thoughtful and worthy participant in the UnHerd.
“wondering if actually we could all calm down, try and find some understanding on all sides and deal with the power balance change without escalation towards nuclear conflict”. Amen to that!
As much as I’m in sympathy with Ukraine’s cause, I am troubled by this escalation on both sides. (Let’s be honest, whatever the scales used, it isn’t unidirectional in either direction).
And while I remain very opinionated in my middle years, I try not to treat my opinions like religious beliefs, nor to believe everything I think, as if every passing thought were a gem.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you, very fair, so l’ll do my best to sketch out how I see it. I am pro brexit. I wanted lizz truss and her free trade, low tax outward looking economy we were promised, trade with the world, take back control of our democracy, encourage tourists etc. I thought that was the vision anyway, it was bold, different, what we needed, a lot of people have forgotten that. We have now been robbed of that by a left leaning establishment (biden also stuck his oar in) and I am p*ssed off about it tbh. Good for her writing in the telegraph. We have lost two leaders trying to do what they were elected for and now have one we didn’t choose suffocating the economy. And now perhaps a breaking global order. So part of our brexit vision is in tatters, before we were allowed to even try it. The American stuff is the exported politics which are often aggressively funded, the US has become pretty hypocritical on so many issues, didn’t support brexit, lied to us over Iraq and Afghanistan, interfered in truss budget, not very democratic, major censorship issues, very poor management of the dollar and economy which is/has hurt everyone, 2008 wasn’t exactly because Americans has been responsible. I think they could tone down the free world nonsense a bit, they are hardly much better than anyone else.
I can see why I’m hard to pin down, they don’t make them like me very often, probably wise. I actually started posting because there didn’t seem to be any millennials on here, got spare time as my little one is on and off school. Ive read here for a long time, but in the comments a lot of people making assumptions about my generation. I’ve been challenging their perceptions and testing myself I suppose, bothering people that probably wish I would go away 🙂
I follow the fringe sites that do just business/ energy type news and have for years, so I’ve been joining in on all that. It’s quite funny some people think this is one of the only alternatives to msm. My parents live on a boat, it has its own little alternative type news community, I know a guy that runs a little news site from his boat and my partner knows another that hands out his own paper. I was a bit of an Alex jones kid, I know he is discredited but he certainly raised some questions about certain organisations, so how the world really works etc has always been an interest on and off. Its very much back on at the moment 🙂
I know there’s a million things I don’t know or understand so from my perspective I don’t think it’s always good to be too fixed in beliefs and idealogy, try and keep learning, be open to changing your mind all that. I do believe in free speech and not cancelling people left right and centre though. I think we are living in times when it feels like the world is getting smaller perhaps and people are not always free to speak, covid was very restrictive, and in times where how we act now, will have some serious consequences for years to come. Its all going at the moment 🙂
My main worry is the escalation, I feel awful for ukraine, I think the whole thing is just a mess.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I’m glad there’s a Millennial Presence (sounds like a New Age cult from the late 90s) here, especially with at least one person who’s not in lockstep with some reductive idea of what millennials are assumed to think.
I think at least a slight majority of people have some independence of mind, but they also want to belong somewhere, so they cluster in the tribes they were born into (ethnic, religious) or find camps of the seemingly like-minded (political, ideological) on their own, and surrender some of their own cognitive processes to the “hive mind”.
That’s actually not so bad to a degree, because a single person’s intellect and experience has limits, and because there’s too much information to process as a whole, and because information doesn’t lead straight to knowledge or understanding (“and because…”). But too many of us end up choosing our sides because of who we hate, crouching or lounging in warring camps that squawk at one another yet barely listen. It has always been this way to an extent, but we’re in a pretty divisive cultural moment. (Pretty sure that mid-16th Century Europe with its Christian-on-Christian sectarian violence had us beat for internal cultural division though).
Is the right-leaning establishment on the side of The People? Boris and Liz and Rishi? I’m still a bit amazed at working class people or even down-and-outers who who love Trump as if he is firmly one their side–the tax cheat who stiffs tradespeople on their pay whenever he can!–or anyone’s side but himself and his inner circle.
I do think even a good ideology (say altruism or humanism) that is rigidly fixed becomes an obstacle or a trap.
Though I’m not sad to see someone like Alex Jones lose prominence or a specific platform to shout from, I don’t believe in suppressing speech either, unless, for example, it is a clear incitement to specific violence or jeopardizes people by revealing certain personal or military details.
Most Americans don’t believe in prior censorship either. There is indeed a hyper-progressive or woke elite here that has departed from common sense and jumped way ahead of popular opinion, many among whom seem convinced they have a perfect new path that at this stage involves racializing everything and turning language into an easily triggered minefield of trauma and offense. But American is a big place, far more varied and a bit less crazy than it may appear from the outside–most places are. (In the case of Canada, where I like to remind people I was born, I think it’s quite a bit more crazy and less nice than people tend to assume–though still pretty nice eh).
Please don’t trust Alex Jones to tell you how the world really works ever again! That’s enough from me in what I intended as a brief reply. To be continued.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Lol, mention Alex jones and people run a mile, I love it. I do not rely on him to say how the world works, like I say, he’s discredited, reputation shredded, I suppose I’m trying to say when we were teenagers there was a lot of that stuff flying around the Internet, wiki leaks and all that, very little was censored, it was fun to read crazy theories, and that’s kind of what got me interested I suppose. He picked up on stuff like the un, trilateral commission etc etc that others never really discussed. That and arguing over radio four at work with my dad, who absolutely hates Alex jones – he happily told us not to be so bloody stupid and watch some proper news. Hence the shift to business type news now I’m a grown up 🙂

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Got it. That was meant mainly as a joke since your said you “were an Alex Jones kid” and you and your generation aren’t kids anymore. But I appreciate the re-assurance anyway.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

OK, just making sure, there’s so much crazy related to Alex jones David ike type media now, its a minefield.
On you earlier point about the economy, yes I am ‘working class’, but my dad ran a limited company for years, my partner and I with him later on. So I understand the difference corporation tax makes to small business. There seems to be a perception that all working class people work for others, in the construction industry (our area) this is very much not the case. We have to do books, tax, regulations too. So I can see how lowering taxes on business, cutting regulations etc leaves more for them to invest in innovation and hiring more people. Which improves the economy as a whole, bottom up. Really we need to be looking to encourage this reshoring business, putting high tax on business etc is not going to attract investment. I can understand her arguments, she does lay it out well in her essay. I can see why in America you cant understand why the working class would like boris, it seems you have a slightly different approach to class maybe, but most in our sort of tier value intelligence and education, we don’t hold it against the likes of boris and truss however they got it, all that matters is what they are saying and doing I suppose. I imagine it took some b*lls to try and change the status quo, so I admire truss for that too.
Hopefully my millennial presence isn’t too annoying 🙂

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I come from a large extended family of mostly small-business owners and salespeople on one side and farmers and small-time, small town business folk on the other. My dad, from the Canadian farmer side, became a carpenter and then a contractor after we moved to the States and I’ve done a fair amount of that work myself.
That’s why I’m kind of personally offended that Trump has stiffed so many contractors and by extension tradespeople, and dismayed at those who think he or Boris Johnson–sons of silver- spoon, high white privilege–are on their side in any real way.
Maybe the alternative looks worse, and many love the populist, stick-it-to-the-wokesters talk. But there hasn’t been much delivery–from either the left, right or center–on reducing corporatocracy or socioeconomic inequality has there?
I don’t want to mock and vilify those I disagree with anymore–I’ve done my share of that, and sometimes I still do it, regretably.
I see my real opponents as those on the far-far left and far-far right ends of the ideological spectrum–the ones typically most willing to kill or tyrannize for a creed. I’ve aged or perhaps matured into a place where I can see that most people have a combination of valid and understandable motives for their beliefs. No Single True Path can, or should prevail.
I don’t know if you can be made to stand in for all millennials, but I find your presence here welcome, and far from annoying.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you, I think Boris appealed to brexit voters for a few reasons I think, he was in the leave campaign, he was part of an existing party that had a better chance of majority than ukip, he is intelligent, silver spoon yes, but that wasn’t the point, it’s the policies etc. If we start saying everyone born with a silver spoon doesn’t have the countries interests at heart well that’s getting a bit toward the lot that want to ‘remove the elite’. I like truss, she seems genuine, by holding the corporation tax rate etc. she wasn’t hurting small business she was helping them, which was/is in the interest of certain sections of the working class. Trump and that whole thing are a different kettle of fish I feel, your issues there are different to ours in many aspects I feel. Our government has really fluffed it now, there’s no denying it, lots of mistakes made but that doesn’t mean truss was wrong.
The corptocracy thing is making it as mainstream issue I think, and it’s not an easy one to tackle, corporations are now globalised, that whole business is also to an extent a different kettle of fish. Not really perhaps the fault of one government, just everything got really big, really fast, we seem to have got carried away with massive globalised business and institutions which add another layer of issues and sometimes corruption on top.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I agree that Boris is, in an IQ sense, intelligent–despite his buffoonery. Not dissimilar to Trump in that way. Both men seem pretty much all about themselves to me too, even by politician “standards”.
What did Johnson’s accomplish? How many consecutive years of Conservative rule will be needed for anything of substance to get done in the UK, or will those failures be blamed on a left-leaning elite no matter what?
Don’t mistake me for a left-wing partisan though: It’s not like I think Biden is wonderful, or thought (as an transatlantic observer) that Tony Blair was a great statesman either.
That’s part of the trouble for those of us who care, but land inside the fringes: Which establishment party or electable politicians are likely to do much good, or even oppose an entrenched status quo?
While I’m dispositionally opposed to bloody revolutions and violent ideological uprisings, I’m not a milquetoast all-is-well head-in-the-sand-man either. We need more non-idiotic voices and cooperative participation. Conscientious, concerted citizenship now (please)!

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I understand what you are saying about boris and Conservatives etc. You will have to bear in mind my memory/ knowledge of politics is no where near as good as some here. British politics I think got a bit crazy under Blair, Iraq all that, then we had the financial crisis, austerity, we had a coalition government which was unusual, between the lib dems and Conservatives then David Cameron, although he gets much stick, as far as I can tell did actually try pretty hard to negotiate with Europe. He did give us a referendum so you know, credit for that. Boris hadn’t been in that long before we were hit with covid and then ukraine, so it’s not like it was a great time for him to get done what he wanted, he couldn’t have had more stuff against him. I suppose it’s easy to pick the bad stuff, everyone covers what the politicians have wrong, everyone likes to vent about the state of the world, but I think the British people by and large know politics is a slow game, change isn’t fast or easy, I think most sensible British people would cut boris and truss some slack considering the headwinds they were facing. I know lots of business owners are not happy about corporation tax etc. Uneasy how boris and truss were got rid of, like you say, I am really not an advocate for pitchforks either, global situation is not great there are bigger wars going on, but also head in the sand is no good. I will see how Mr Sunak does, I suppose faced with truss gone they had to tow the line anyway, it’s very difficult to make out what’s going on with all that. Lizz truss arguably was trying to change the status quo I think might be fair to say?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I agree that Sunak deserves a chance and think that while Truss seems to have badly miscalculated, at least in a political sense, her removal was insanely abrupt.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I agree that Sunak deserves a chance and think that while Truss seems to have badly miscalculated, at least in a political sense, her removal was insanely abrupt.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I understand what you are saying about boris and Conservatives etc. You will have to bear in mind my memory/ knowledge of politics is no where near as good as some here. British politics I think got a bit crazy under Blair, Iraq all that, then we had the financial crisis, austerity, we had a coalition government which was unusual, between the lib dems and Conservatives then David Cameron, although he gets much stick, as far as I can tell did actually try pretty hard to negotiate with Europe. He did give us a referendum so you know, credit for that. Boris hadn’t been in that long before we were hit with covid and then ukraine, so it’s not like it was a great time for him to get done what he wanted, he couldn’t have had more stuff against him. I suppose it’s easy to pick the bad stuff, everyone covers what the politicians have wrong, everyone likes to vent about the state of the world, but I think the British people by and large know politics is a slow game, change isn’t fast or easy, I think most sensible British people would cut boris and truss some slack considering the headwinds they were facing. I know lots of business owners are not happy about corporation tax etc. Uneasy how boris and truss were got rid of, like you say, I am really not an advocate for pitchforks either, global situation is not great there are bigger wars going on, but also head in the sand is no good. I will see how Mr Sunak does, I suppose faced with truss gone they had to tow the line anyway, it’s very difficult to make out what’s going on with all that. Lizz truss arguably was trying to change the status quo I think might be fair to say?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I agree that Boris is, in an IQ sense, intelligent–despite his buffoonery. Not dissimilar to Trump in that way. Both men seem pretty much all about themselves to me too, even by politician “standards”.
What did Johnson’s accomplish? How many consecutive years of Conservative rule will be needed for anything of substance to get done in the UK, or will those failures be blamed on a left-leaning elite no matter what?
Don’t mistake me for a left-wing partisan though: It’s not like I think Biden is wonderful, or thought (as an transatlantic observer) that Tony Blair was a great statesman either.
That’s part of the trouble for those of us who care, but land inside the fringes: Which establishment party or electable politicians are likely to do much good, or even oppose an entrenched status quo?
While I’m dispositionally opposed to bloody revolutions and violent ideological uprisings, I’m not a milquetoast all-is-well head-in-the-sand-man either. We need more non-idiotic voices and cooperative participation. Conscientious, concerted citizenship now (please)!

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you, I think Boris appealed to brexit voters for a few reasons I think, he was in the leave campaign, he was part of an existing party that had a better chance of majority than ukip, he is intelligent, silver spoon yes, but that wasn’t the point, it’s the policies etc. If we start saying everyone born with a silver spoon doesn’t have the countries interests at heart well that’s getting a bit toward the lot that want to ‘remove the elite’. I like truss, she seems genuine, by holding the corporation tax rate etc. she wasn’t hurting small business she was helping them, which was/is in the interest of certain sections of the working class. Trump and that whole thing are a different kettle of fish I feel, your issues there are different to ours in many aspects I feel. Our government has really fluffed it now, there’s no denying it, lots of mistakes made but that doesn’t mean truss was wrong.
The corptocracy thing is making it as mainstream issue I think, and it’s not an easy one to tackle, corporations are now globalised, that whole business is also to an extent a different kettle of fish. Not really perhaps the fault of one government, just everything got really big, really fast, we seem to have got carried away with massive globalised business and institutions which add another layer of issues and sometimes corruption on top.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I come from a large extended family of mostly small-business owners and salespeople on one side and farmers and small-time, small town business folk on the other. My dad, from the Canadian farmer side, became a carpenter and then a contractor after we moved to the States and I’ve done a fair amount of that work myself.
That’s why I’m kind of personally offended that Trump has stiffed so many contractors and by extension tradespeople, and dismayed at those who think he or Boris Johnson–sons of silver- spoon, high white privilege–are on their side in any real way.
Maybe the alternative looks worse, and many love the populist, stick-it-to-the-wokesters talk. But there hasn’t been much delivery–from either the left, right or center–on reducing corporatocracy or socioeconomic inequality has there?
I don’t want to mock and vilify those I disagree with anymore–I’ve done my share of that, and sometimes I still do it, regretably.
I see my real opponents as those on the far-far left and far-far right ends of the ideological spectrum–the ones typically most willing to kill or tyrannize for a creed. I’ve aged or perhaps matured into a place where I can see that most people have a combination of valid and understandable motives for their beliefs. No Single True Path can, or should prevail.
I don’t know if you can be made to stand in for all millennials, but I find your presence here welcome, and far from annoying.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

OK, just making sure, there’s so much crazy related to Alex jones David ike type media now, its a minefield.
On you earlier point about the economy, yes I am ‘working class’, but my dad ran a limited company for years, my partner and I with him later on. So I understand the difference corporation tax makes to small business. There seems to be a perception that all working class people work for others, in the construction industry (our area) this is very much not the case. We have to do books, tax, regulations too. So I can see how lowering taxes on business, cutting regulations etc leaves more for them to invest in innovation and hiring more people. Which improves the economy as a whole, bottom up. Really we need to be looking to encourage this reshoring business, putting high tax on business etc is not going to attract investment. I can understand her arguments, she does lay it out well in her essay. I can see why in America you cant understand why the working class would like boris, it seems you have a slightly different approach to class maybe, but most in our sort of tier value intelligence and education, we don’t hold it against the likes of boris and truss however they got it, all that matters is what they are saying and doing I suppose. I imagine it took some b*lls to try and change the status quo, so I admire truss for that too.
Hopefully my millennial presence isn’t too annoying 🙂

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Got it. That was meant mainly as a joke since your said you “were an Alex Jones kid” and you and your generation aren’t kids anymore. But I appreciate the re-assurance anyway.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Lol, mention Alex jones and people run a mile, I love it. I do not rely on him to say how the world works, like I say, he’s discredited, reputation shredded, I suppose I’m trying to say when we were teenagers there was a lot of that stuff flying around the Internet, wiki leaks and all that, very little was censored, it was fun to read crazy theories, and that’s kind of what got me interested I suppose. He picked up on stuff like the un, trilateral commission etc etc that others never really discussed. That and arguing over radio four at work with my dad, who absolutely hates Alex jones – he happily told us not to be so bloody stupid and watch some proper news. Hence the shift to business type news now I’m a grown up 🙂

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Liz Truss was defeated by the capital markets who saw plans to increase spending combined with plans to cut revenues. Not at all a left-leaning Establishment – the City of London and Wall Street?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

The reasons for the market reaction were more complex than you make out, I would direct you to her essay in the telegraph where she explains it all very clearly. It was also related to the change in interest rates and lpis etc.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

The reasons for the market reaction were more complex than you make out, I would direct you to her essay in the telegraph where she explains it all very clearly. It was also related to the change in interest rates and lpis etc.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I’m glad there’s a Millennial Presence (sounds like a New Age cult from the late 90s) here, especially with at least one person who’s not in lockstep with some reductive idea of what millennials are assumed to think.
I think at least a slight majority of people have some independence of mind, but they also want to belong somewhere, so they cluster in the tribes they were born into (ethnic, religious) or find camps of the seemingly like-minded (political, ideological) on their own, and surrender some of their own cognitive processes to the “hive mind”.
That’s actually not so bad to a degree, because a single person’s intellect and experience has limits, and because there’s too much information to process as a whole, and because information doesn’t lead straight to knowledge or understanding (“and because…”). But too many of us end up choosing our sides because of who we hate, crouching or lounging in warring camps that squawk at one another yet barely listen. It has always been this way to an extent, but we’re in a pretty divisive cultural moment. (Pretty sure that mid-16th Century Europe with its Christian-on-Christian sectarian violence had us beat for internal cultural division though).
Is the right-leaning establishment on the side of The People? Boris and Liz and Rishi? I’m still a bit amazed at working class people or even down-and-outers who who love Trump as if he is firmly one their side–the tax cheat who stiffs tradespeople on their pay whenever he can!–or anyone’s side but himself and his inner circle.
I do think even a good ideology (say altruism or humanism) that is rigidly fixed becomes an obstacle or a trap.
Though I’m not sad to see someone like Alex Jones lose prominence or a specific platform to shout from, I don’t believe in suppressing speech either, unless, for example, it is a clear incitement to specific violence or jeopardizes people by revealing certain personal or military details.
Most Americans don’t believe in prior censorship either. There is indeed a hyper-progressive or woke elite here that has departed from common sense and jumped way ahead of popular opinion, many among whom seem convinced they have a perfect new path that at this stage involves racializing everything and turning language into an easily triggered minefield of trauma and offense. But American is a big place, far more varied and a bit less crazy than it may appear from the outside–most places are. (In the case of Canada, where I like to remind people I was born, I think it’s quite a bit more crazy and less nice than people tend to assume–though still pretty nice eh).
Please don’t trust Alex Jones to tell you how the world really works ever again! That’s enough from me in what I intended as a brief reply. To be continued.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Liz Truss was defeated by the capital markets who saw plans to increase spending combined with plans to cut revenues. Not at all a left-leaning Establishment – the City of London and Wall Street?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you, very fair, so l’ll do my best to sketch out how I see it. I am pro brexit. I wanted lizz truss and her free trade, low tax outward looking economy we were promised, trade with the world, take back control of our democracy, encourage tourists etc. I thought that was the vision anyway, it was bold, different, what we needed, a lot of people have forgotten that. We have now been robbed of that by a left leaning establishment (biden also stuck his oar in) and I am p*ssed off about it tbh. Good for her writing in the telegraph. We have lost two leaders trying to do what they were elected for and now have one we didn’t choose suffocating the economy. And now perhaps a breaking global order. So part of our brexit vision is in tatters, before we were allowed to even try it. The American stuff is the exported politics which are often aggressively funded, the US has become pretty hypocritical on so many issues, didn’t support brexit, lied to us over Iraq and Afghanistan, interfered in truss budget, not very democratic, major censorship issues, very poor management of the dollar and economy which is/has hurt everyone, 2008 wasn’t exactly because Americans has been responsible. I think they could tone down the free world nonsense a bit, they are hardly much better than anyone else.
I can see why I’m hard to pin down, they don’t make them like me very often, probably wise. I actually started posting because there didn’t seem to be any millennials on here, got spare time as my little one is on and off school. Ive read here for a long time, but in the comments a lot of people making assumptions about my generation. I’ve been challenging their perceptions and testing myself I suppose, bothering people that probably wish I would go away 🙂
I follow the fringe sites that do just business/ energy type news and have for years, so I’ve been joining in on all that. It’s quite funny some people think this is one of the only alternatives to msm. My parents live on a boat, it has its own little alternative type news community, I know a guy that runs a little news site from his boat and my partner knows another that hands out his own paper. I was a bit of an Alex jones kid, I know he is discredited but he certainly raised some questions about certain organisations, so how the world really works etc has always been an interest on and off. Its very much back on at the moment 🙂
I know there’s a million things I don’t know or understand so from my perspective I don’t think it’s always good to be too fixed in beliefs and idealogy, try and keep learning, be open to changing your mind all that. I do believe in free speech and not cancelling people left right and centre though. I think we are living in times when it feels like the world is getting smaller perhaps and people are not always free to speak, covid was very restrictive, and in times where how we act now, will have some serious consequences for years to come. Its all going at the moment 🙂
My main worry is the escalation, I feel awful for ukraine, I think the whole thing is just a mess.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

well put thanks !

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I’m actually pretty sympathetic to most of these points, although I don’t share all your demographics as a 50-ish male American born in Canada.
I’d like Europe to help lead the way to a less contentious world order, if possible. But most of the outspoken commenters here are, if not straight up rah rah pro-Brexit, suspicious of anything Continental or multi-lateral that seems to threaten local pubs and restaurants, familiar population makeup, etc. I’m not saying there aren’t complex and valid reasons to reject membership in the EU. But it’s a bit much to be a roaring Little England Brexiteer and then talk about the critical imperative of taming the American Beast (whenever such commenters are the same people-I admit I sometimes lose track).
The above is not meant to refer to your own views, and I’m not sure where you stand on all the recurring, ongoing world and UK-specific issues that come up here. I have noticed that you’re not easy to pin at one place on the political-cultural-philosophical spectrum, which I respect. I often disagree with you but can only conclude that your a thoughtful and worthy participant in the UnHerd.
“wondering if actually we could all calm down, try and find some understanding on all sides and deal with the power balance change without escalation towards nuclear conflict”. Amen to that!
As much as I’m in sympathy with Ukraine’s cause, I am troubled by this escalation on both sides. (Let’s be honest, whatever the scales used, it isn’t unidirectional in either direction).
And while I remain very opinionated in my middle years, I try not to treat my opinions like religious beliefs, nor to believe everything I think, as if every passing thought were a gem.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

well put thanks !

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“but it hasn’t annexed territory since 1898”
That covers a period during which Americans
– overthrew democratically elected governments in Chile, Congo, Iran amongst others, replacing them with murderous dictators or authoritarian leaders
– Attacked Vietnam, Libya, Iraq without provocation, resulting in utter destruction of those countries
– Supported terrorist or radical religious organisations in Nicaragua, Afghanistan
– Provided arms and other support to countries like Pakistan, Turkey, Israel, Saudi – while they used those arms for genocide or attacks on civilians.

You aren’t making the case you think you are.

And incidentally, the reason they haven’t annexed anything since 1898?
Because they ran out of places to annexe
Have you seen the American map of 1776 and how it compares to the current, post 1898 borders?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I’m not an US Exceptionalist nor a believer in the phony justifications that were made for so-called Manifest Destiny.
You’re right that US involvement overseas has been disastrous on the whole since WWII.
But I really think it easy to make the case that the Soviet Union was more violent, expansionist and tyrannical, with many more documented deaths and swallowed countries in its wake than even the most inflated US tally. And I believe Putin comes from and wants to return to this sort of Russia: a de facto tyrannical oligarchy and expansionist empire that pretends to a benevolent altruism, socialist or not.
So I am not making the case that America is squeaky clean or perfect, nor a case that could ever persuade a Putin fan like you, but I’m quite sure I know the kind of case I am making, in what context and with what stakes.
If you are, for example, an anti-American, Hungarian ultra-authoritarian who’d love to see an even stronger OrbĂĄn-Putin alliance, or a re-absorption of Hungary into a Russianist mega-state, you have your own point-of-view and internal logic.
But we’re not gonna persuade each other.

OrthoChristos
OrthoChristos
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I am bewildered when Americans believe the USSR is the exact same thing as post-1991 Russia to win an argument – the US did that, but Russia did that also. It honestly reminds me of a recent re-tweet by NATO on its official page of an article portraying Putin as Thanos. When are people going to stop believing geopolitics is a DC or Marvel fantasy movie…

OrthoChristos
OrthoChristos
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I am bewildered when Americans believe the USSR is the exact same thing as post-1991 Russia to win an argument – the US did that, but Russia did that also. It honestly reminds me of a recent re-tweet by NATO on its official page of an article portraying Putin as Thanos. When are people going to stop believing geopolitics is a DC or Marvel fantasy movie…

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I’m not an US Exceptionalist nor a believer in the phony justifications that were made for so-called Manifest Destiny.
You’re right that US involvement overseas has been disastrous on the whole since WWII.
But I really think it easy to make the case that the Soviet Union was more violent, expansionist and tyrannical, with many more documented deaths and swallowed countries in its wake than even the most inflated US tally. And I believe Putin comes from and wants to return to this sort of Russia: a de facto tyrannical oligarchy and expansionist empire that pretends to a benevolent altruism, socialist or not.
So I am not making the case that America is squeaky clean or perfect, nor a case that could ever persuade a Putin fan like you, but I’m quite sure I know the kind of case I am making, in what context and with what stakes.
If you are, for example, an anti-American, Hungarian ultra-authoritarian who’d love to see an even stronger OrbĂĄn-Putin alliance, or a re-absorption of Hungary into a Russianist mega-state, you have your own point-of-view and internal logic.
But we’re not gonna persuade each other.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

ha ha what a load of tosh! ye ha. Bet you don’t have any native American mates do you……

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

A few with much higher percentages than Elizabeth Warren. Do you have any?
I suppose we could nearly all do a lot better as nations and individual people.
[I altered this reply because while I probably shouldn’t have responded to this sort of mockery at all, since I’m doing so I’d rather to not pile on negativity the way I did in the first version]

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

A few with much higher percentages than Elizabeth Warren. Do you have any?
I suppose we could nearly all do a lot better as nations and individual people.
[I altered this reply because while I probably shouldn’t have responded to this sort of mockery at all, since I’m doing so I’d rather to not pile on negativity the way I did in the first version]

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Geez.. you guys are suckers for the MSM.. the US has effectively annexed almost every nation on Earth (except the BRICS) via neo liberalism.. much easier than neocolonialism in turn much easier than colonialism..
Don’t you find it odd that while you are happy to stay with American hegemony the BRICS nations, most of Africa, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and now much of Latin America have had enough!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I have a very conflicted view to all this. Let me try and lay it out. Because I have been pretty anti us. But I have also been anti russia and China. So.
I’m pissed at the us for its lies over Iraq, im slightly aggravated by the fact its multinationals have made a lot of money in China, we have off shored everything there and now all of a sudden its no good, we must stop dealing with them. A bit like the Russian energy. Same idea. Let’s do it, actually no. That’s going to cause carnage. All you old people have bought Chinese goods then turn round to young people and say actually no, we’ve given the crazy communists too much money and we must fight them. OK. Great, thanks guys.
I don’t like how your fbi etc censor twitter etc etc I don’t like the way you just constantly use qe as an answer.
Next. The ccp could well be responsible for covid, are probably as dodgy as every b*gger else just like the Russians. I am also very sceptical of their intentions.
If your a millennial all this is very confusing. Lies everywhere on all sides. Collapsing the current global order is f*cking worrying. Some people, like my good self just are wondering if actually we could all calm down, try and find some understanding on all sides and deal with the power balance change without escalation towards nuclear conflict. You know. That’s all really. There is a few points to say the us hasn’t helped the situation. That’s not to say that the ccp and Russia aren’t also merrily causing carnage. Tbh they’re all at it and Europe is stuck in the middle, wondering how long until they all kick off properly and how bad it’s likely to be. In my humble opinion.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“but it hasn’t annexed territory since 1898”
That covers a period during which Americans
– overthrew democratically elected governments in Chile, Congo, Iran amongst others, replacing them with murderous dictators or authoritarian leaders
– Attacked Vietnam, Libya, Iraq without provocation, resulting in utter destruction of those countries
– Supported terrorist or radical religious organisations in Nicaragua, Afghanistan
– Provided arms and other support to countries like Pakistan, Turkey, Israel, Saudi – while they used those arms for genocide or attacks on civilians.

You aren’t making the case you think you are.

And incidentally, the reason they haven’t annexed anything since 1898?
Because they ran out of places to annexe
Have you seen the American map of 1776 and how it compares to the current, post 1898 borders?

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

ha ha what a load of tosh! ye ha. Bet you don’t have any native American mates do you……

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Give over.
The EU was making the running on accession to the EU, before ever any thought of Ukraine joining Nato.
Russia, because of it’s nukes still thinks it’s a great power…but it isn’t, not really. It has destroyed it’s main source of revenue for maybe 10 years.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

The criteria for joining the EU are such that Ukraine will qualify in maybe a 100 years or so thanks to its monumental corruption, state run judiciary, imprisoned opposition etc! Get real..

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If that is the case how on earth did corrupt little Ireland get in? Or for that matter irredeemably corrupt little Greece?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Ireland isn’t a real country. It’s just part of Britain.
They are all one people of the British Isles.
Can’t see all the fuss.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Ireland isn’t a real country. It’s just part of Britain.
They are all one people of the British Isles.
Can’t see all the fuss.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If that is the case how on earth did corrupt little Ireland get in? Or for that matter irredeemably corrupt little Greece?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

The criteria for joining the EU are such that Ukraine will qualify in maybe a 100 years or so thanks to its monumental corruption, state run judiciary, imprisoned opposition etc! Get real..

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Spot on!

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Well said Bruce! So many down votes – really? What a bunch of red necks on here!

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Some of what he said was spot on, other things were a very mixed bag. That’s probably why.

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Some of what he said was spot on, other things were a very mixed bag. That’s probably why.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

oh – I finally get it !! Nato really just wanted to invade russia all along !!

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

I think it’s the Ukranians who decide whether they are a country or not…and who they can play with.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

No. Ending it on the Ukraine-Western side means the end of Ukraine in any meaningful sense. Ending it from the Russian side means the non-increase (or in their view, non-recovery) of Russian soil, stopping the bloodbath and helping to curtail Putin’s imperial ambitions. It is Putin who has brushed aside warnings and miscalculated. Let him have this one you seem to say, in the interest of a tense a servile peace. How about the next one?
Yes, the US has an imperial past and present but it hasn’t annexed territory since 1898. And when we go into places around the globe and try to control or “Americanize” them more recently that doesn’t really work out well in the long run does it? This intervention is a far more legitimate defense of Western interests or Ukrainian national sovereignty than the weak pretense of Kuwaiti sovereignty made for Desert Storm in 1990. Or of mostly-futile nation-building efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere.
I’d like to know from some/any among the multitude of anti-Ukraine-intervention voices here: Are you just against intervention, or actively rooting for a decrease in US world power and consequent increase in the power of Russia and China?
Because I’m not an unqualified supporter of American power and influence, but I’ll take it over the plausible alternatives.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Give over.
The EU was making the running on accession to the EU, before ever any thought of Ukraine joining Nato.
Russia, because of it’s nukes still thinks it’s a great power…but it isn’t, not really. It has destroyed it’s main source of revenue for maybe 10 years.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Spot on!

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Well said Bruce! So many down votes – really? What a bunch of red necks on here!

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

oh – I finally get it !! Nato really just wanted to invade russia all along !!

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

I think it’s the Ukranians who decide whether they are a country or not…and who they can play with.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I’d say the support for Putin could be explained by the enemy of my enemy is my friend if you consider Ukraine to basically be fighting on behalf of the US empire.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

Ok, I can see that justification. But in this situation don’t you have to make the entire West your enemy for that to even to make sense to the degree that slogan even makes sense? (Of course your enemy’s enemy can be another enemy, or certainly an adversary). In other words, what part of the globe do these commenters and their families reside in? The non-West?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

If you mean the people of the west than no of course you don’t consider them all enemies but the people in charge yes and I was clear to call it the American empire. I would consider it a bit like certain Irish nationalists supporting Germany in the first world war. They did not want to be part of a German empire though in that war they had a common enemy.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

That may work as an explanation but not a reason, when the actual result of that support, if successful, is German empire or Russo-Chinese world hegemony. Or would NATO and the EU– with Britain now desperately back on board–fill that void after big bad Uncle Sam is booted from the leadership seat?

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

There are those who believe that a multi-polar world reins everyone in, and raises more boats than does a unipolar hegemony. A reduction of American ability to tyrranize and threaten innocent others will be welcomed by many.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Ah, the glory days of the Cold War.
Truthfully, I can see some merit in this belief, and plenty of reasons not to trust unipolar American sway.
But how many sovereign nations have to be conceded, how many CCP spy games and and betrayals like Hong Kong are needed to achieve this bellicose balance?
It’s possible you may get your wish, yet become nostalgic for the days of American domination when you see what China and Russia provide to replace it.
Why not build up NATO the EU, the UK and other pockets of the world (Australia, Mexico, Brazil) that are not hostile to so-called Western values, which in many cases correspond to Universal Human Rights, at least aspirationally, and with some real-world success?
Easily said I know, but a better, if steeper and slower, path in my view than moving the pieces to the other side of the global board as if it were a game of Risk, so we can fiddle while Rome burns, or succumb to a naive belief that what comes next can’t be any worse.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

They believe that right up until Russia or China starts to invade them, then they cry for US help.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Ah, the glory days of the Cold War.
Truthfully, I can see some merit in this belief, and plenty of reasons not to trust unipolar American sway.
But how many sovereign nations have to be conceded, how many CCP spy games and and betrayals like Hong Kong are needed to achieve this bellicose balance?
It’s possible you may get your wish, yet become nostalgic for the days of American domination when you see what China and Russia provide to replace it.
Why not build up NATO the EU, the UK and other pockets of the world (Australia, Mexico, Brazil) that are not hostile to so-called Western values, which in many cases correspond to Universal Human Rights, at least aspirationally, and with some real-world success?
Easily said I know, but a better, if steeper and slower, path in my view than moving the pieces to the other side of the global board as if it were a game of Risk, so we can fiddle while Rome burns, or succumb to a naive belief that what comes next can’t be any worse.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

They believe that right up until Russia or China starts to invade them, then they cry for US help.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

People seem to be confusing my explanation for my opinion but I’ll continue to play along as it’s an interesting discussion.
I don’t think anyone sees Russia as a serious threat to the USA to be honest and NATO is a pretty strong blockade on them progressing any further than Ukraine. So it seems fine for Russia to control Ukraine which is vital for their national security while for the US empire it isn’t particularly vital at all. There seems like a lot more steps before we get to the defeat of the US empire and Russia, China hegemony.
On the topic of China I think you would likely find a lot of those nationalists we started this discussion about would see them as far more of a serious threat. They would prefer to be aligned with Russia against China than face them both at the same time.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I see. I was trying to coax out your own views while attempting to play along with your non-committal or third-person language. I agree that the prospect of a Russia-China mega-bloc is not around the corner, but disagree that there are many steps still needed.
Thought experiment. Let Russia have Ukraine, let China fully re-absorb Hong Kong and Taiwan. Then they both stop there?
So you–or the hypothetical people whose views you’re defending–would be in favor of opposing Russia and Putin the Terrible if he tries to push on into Lithuania, Belarus, Finland…eastern Poland?
If what’s left of the pretense of civil relations and mutual standoffishness between China and the US collapses, a Russia-Chinese hegemony could be about one-full step and a few years away from reality. That’s my non-expert opinion, one which I didn’t, of course, form all on my own.
I agree that Russia by itself presents only a minor political, economic, and existential threat to the West unless they literally go nuclear. But that is something that seems less farfetched than it did just a full year ago.
I don’t see how you think you can be aligned with Russia under its present leadership without a huge risk of becoming part of Russia or the Soviet Union 2.0, or of finding your nation facing a bigger war, closer to your own front step, to resist that.
Who do you think Putin is? Can Poles, Hungarians, or Germans be expected to share your comfort with the notion of a strategic alliance with Russia?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Sorry I have been offline for a few days and understand this thread has gone cold but just to honor your comment with a response. I would say that the difference between Ukraine and Poland for example is Nato and nuclear war. So I don’t see some sort of domino effect happening and I also think its a long shot they take the whole of Ukraine. I don’ think the West should concede anything to China either. Anyway, I answered your question in my first comment. Bye!

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Sorry I have been offline for a few days and understand this thread has gone cold but just to honor your comment with a response. I would say that the difference between Ukraine and Poland for example is Nato and nuclear war. So I don’t see some sort of domino effect happening and I also think its a long shot they take the whole of Ukraine. I don’ think the West should concede anything to China either. Anyway, I answered your question in my first comment. Bye!

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I thank you not to treat Ukraine, a country of nearly 50 million prior to 2014, with an emigre community of an additional 5-6 million, as though the desire of Ukrainians to keep their own country and not a colony of russia’s was irrelevant. You’ve clearly never visited either place so you have no idea just how far apart they are in just about every way.
PS NATO wasn’t doing so well until this war became a wake-up call and suddenly everybody’s thinking defense and two neutral countries rushed to join it.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Rascal Dear

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Rascal Dear

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I see. I was trying to coax out your own views while attempting to play along with your non-committal or third-person language. I agree that the prospect of a Russia-China mega-bloc is not around the corner, but disagree that there are many steps still needed.
Thought experiment. Let Russia have Ukraine, let China fully re-absorb Hong Kong and Taiwan. Then they both stop there?
So you–or the hypothetical people whose views you’re defending–would be in favor of opposing Russia and Putin the Terrible if he tries to push on into Lithuania, Belarus, Finland…eastern Poland?
If what’s left of the pretense of civil relations and mutual standoffishness between China and the US collapses, a Russia-Chinese hegemony could be about one-full step and a few years away from reality. That’s my non-expert opinion, one which I didn’t, of course, form all on my own.
I agree that Russia by itself presents only a minor political, economic, and existential threat to the West unless they literally go nuclear. But that is something that seems less farfetched than it did just a full year ago.
I don’t see how you think you can be aligned with Russia under its present leadership without a huge risk of becoming part of Russia or the Soviet Union 2.0, or of finding your nation facing a bigger war, closer to your own front step, to resist that.
Who do you think Putin is? Can Poles, Hungarians, or Germans be expected to share your comfort with the notion of a strategic alliance with Russia?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I thank you not to treat Ukraine, a country of nearly 50 million prior to 2014, with an emigre community of an additional 5-6 million, as though the desire of Ukrainians to keep their own country and not a colony of russia’s was irrelevant. You’ve clearly never visited either place so you have no idea just how far apart they are in just about every way.
PS NATO wasn’t doing so well until this war became a wake-up call and suddenly everybody’s thinking defense and two neutral countries rushed to join it.

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

There are those who believe that a multi-polar world reins everyone in, and raises more boats than does a unipolar hegemony. A reduction of American ability to tyrranize and threaten innocent others will be welcomed by many.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

People seem to be confusing my explanation for my opinion but I’ll continue to play along as it’s an interesting discussion.
I don’t think anyone sees Russia as a serious threat to the USA to be honest and NATO is a pretty strong blockade on them progressing any further than Ukraine. So it seems fine for Russia to control Ukraine which is vital for their national security while for the US empire it isn’t particularly vital at all. There seems like a lot more steps before we get to the defeat of the US empire and Russia, China hegemony.
On the topic of China I think you would likely find a lot of those nationalists we started this discussion about would see them as far more of a serious threat. They would prefer to be aligned with Russia against China than face them both at the same time.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

Correct..

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

That may work as an explanation but not a reason, when the actual result of that support, if successful, is German empire or Russo-Chinese world hegemony. Or would NATO and the EU– with Britain now desperately back on board–fill that void after big bad Uncle Sam is booted from the leadership seat?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

Correct..

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

If you mean the people of the west than no of course you don’t consider them all enemies but the people in charge yes and I was clear to call it the American empire. I would consider it a bit like certain Irish nationalists supporting Germany in the first world war. They did not want to be part of a German empire though in that war they had a common enemy.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

Ok, I can see that justification. But in this situation don’t you have to make the entire West your enemy for that to even to make sense to the degree that slogan even makes sense? (Of course your enemy’s enemy can be another enemy, or certainly an adversary). In other words, what part of the globe do these commenters and their families reside in? The non-West?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You’ve got a few things very wrong (in you last paragraph):
1. “War… not good for anyone”? Are you joking? NATO (ie US, others are just lackeys) ie the American Military Complex is doing great!
2. The US has smashed EU-Russian relations so US foreign policy wins a great victory.
3. European economy is screwed making Europe heavily dependent on (non-existent) US largesse.. they have us by the balls! A great economic hit by the US on Europe!
4. Russia being weakened and its new monetary regime (via BRICS) is seriously curtailed – the whole motive for the CIA coup in the first place – thereby safeguarding the otherwise bankrupted dollar.
…and you say no one wins! Ha ha.. lol..

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If anyone could actually plan out an outcome so unlikely 10 years ago, they would be beyond genius.
I don’t think the people who made the disastrous war in Iraq, and lost Afghanistan are exactly geniuses.
But maybe Joe Biden is the exception?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Ok certain war profiteers win. Lunatic online trolls win. Thanks for pointing out these important exceptions.
Europeans don’t need American military support and the U.S. govt. caused Putin’s invasion into Ukraine, wrecking an otherwise robust EU-Russia partnership (Haha, LAWL!).
The U.S. is a country of simpleminded yokels run by an elite of greed-blinded, ingenious masterminds who are for some reason also willing to have the world explode in their supposed self-interest. (LOL!)
Joe Biden, Boris Johnson, and even Trump aren’t just people you dislike but lizard people devoid of all humanity, goodwill, and sensible self-interest (willing to burn and destroy it all for money and self-promotion amid the rubble that’s left of the world…LOL).
You’ve made America into your literal Satan, though in competition with England, able to embody all–or most of–your hatred and prejudice. Is it accurate to say that you’d like to see America and most of its people obliterated? And that you consider yourself a Christian?
There’s not much point in us exchanging views on most topics, is there? Best to just let one another be, letting the up and downvotes fall as they may. Incidentally, I know there is more to you than you ranting denunciations, but you don’t show much of it here, and I can agree with some of your points, but you almost always wrap them in insults and ridicule. I don’t pretend to know it all, do you? No need to answer right away.

Maso ala
Maso ala
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“Lunatic online trolls win.” As sure as death and taxes.

Maso ala
Maso ala
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“Lunatic online trolls win.” As sure as death and taxes.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If anyone could actually plan out an outcome so unlikely 10 years ago, they would be beyond genius.
I don’t think the people who made the disastrous war in Iraq, and lost Afghanistan are exactly geniuses.
But maybe Joe Biden is the exception?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Ok certain war profiteers win. Lunatic online trolls win. Thanks for pointing out these important exceptions.
Europeans don’t need American military support and the U.S. govt. caused Putin’s invasion into Ukraine, wrecking an otherwise robust EU-Russia partnership (Haha, LAWL!).
The U.S. is a country of simpleminded yokels run by an elite of greed-blinded, ingenious masterminds who are for some reason also willing to have the world explode in their supposed self-interest. (LOL!)
Joe Biden, Boris Johnson, and even Trump aren’t just people you dislike but lizard people devoid of all humanity, goodwill, and sensible self-interest (willing to burn and destroy it all for money and self-promotion amid the rubble that’s left of the world…LOL).
You’ve made America into your literal Satan, though in competition with England, able to embody all–or most of–your hatred and prejudice. Is it accurate to say that you’d like to see America and most of its people obliterated? And that you consider yourself a Christian?
There’s not much point in us exchanging views on most topics, is there? Best to just let one another be, letting the up and downvotes fall as they may. Incidentally, I know there is more to you than you ranting denunciations, but you don’t show much of it here, and I can agree with some of your points, but you almost always wrap them in insults and ridicule. I don’t pretend to know it all, do you? No need to answer right away.

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“Russia could end this tomorrow without any threat to its military, legitimate sovereignty, or status…”
The same could be said about NATO and America as well. Thirty years of warnings that Ukraine was the red line have been brushed aside by the West, and this is the provocation that has produced Putin’s response. To see this, one would have to understand that the Imperial West cannot be trusted. Our own history of multiple invasions and regime change efforts–let alone the colonialist history of key EU states–confirms this. There is no innocent intent when it comes to the deceptions and bad behavior on the part of this western Offensive (not defensive) alliance.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I’d say the support for Putin could be explained by the enemy of my enemy is my friend if you consider Ukraine to basically be fighting on behalf of the US empire.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You’ve got a few things very wrong (in you last paragraph):
1. “War… not good for anyone”? Are you joking? NATO (ie US, others are just lackeys) ie the American Military Complex is doing great!
2. The US has smashed EU-Russian relations so US foreign policy wins a great victory.
3. European economy is screwed making Europe heavily dependent on (non-existent) US largesse.. they have us by the balls! A great economic hit by the US on Europe!
4. Russia being weakened and its new monetary regime (via BRICS) is seriously curtailed – the whole motive for the CIA coup in the first place – thereby safeguarding the otherwise bankrupted dollar.
…and you say no one wins! Ha ha.. lol..

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

To me, this was a worthwhile peek inside the eye of the storm. The article is quite openly biased, as a piece of embedded journalism, or any non-fringe Western view of this conflict is likely to be. I’m fine with that. I could access ultra-right-wing media or even Russian propaganda for “balance” if I were so inclined and had better firewalls on my pc.
Or I can be exposed to some offshoot of Russian State TV by certain prominent commenters here. Why is it that those of a nationalistic or even Western Chauvinist bent are often such easy fans of this Soviet-revivalist Russian regime? (I think I’m correct to find significant overlap there). Is it part of a reflexive opposition to any stance that is seen as mainstream or liberal/progressive?
Certainly this war is hellish and not really good for anyone, and this article doesn’t run from that, sympathetic bias notwithstanding. But this fight is undoubtedly, understandably–and by demonstrated sacrifice and valor (on the whole)–preferable to non-existence from a Ukrainian perspective. And Russia could end this tomorrow without any threat to its military, legitimate sovereignty, or status as the geographically largest nation on the globe. The only increased threat would be, perhaps, to Putin himself, who would have been better off even from a calculating, self-interested point-of-view if he’d let this one go to begin with.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Russia is now transitioning from the delusional to the psychotic.
Before, Putin and those who count in Russia had just totally misread Ukraine, the EU and the US.
Bakhmut signals the New Phase.
Now Putin defies reality, and keeps ordering the automaton that is the Russian Army to smash itself to pieces in places like Bakhmut and Vuhledar.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Na, the Russians are slowly winning

When they take Bakhmut. We will be told its of no real significance, but if that’s true, why did the Ukraine hold on for so long, losing so much men and equipment for nothing

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because the defences are strong. it destroys so many Russians.
And if they take it, they’re creating defences just as strong behind it.
Remember how Pisky was supposed to be the “winning” battle?
Before that Sieverodonetsk?
…before that Hostomel?
…before that…

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Persephone
Persephone
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

The propaganda runs deep in this one. I suppose you’re still thankful you took the “safe and effective” “vaccines” aye Martin?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Persephone

Yep! And I feel GREAT.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Be sure to get your booster

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Don’t worry. Already have.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Don’t worry. Already have.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Be sure to get your booster

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Persephone

Yep! And I feel GREAT.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I can’t understand people who with little knowledge of anything much will assert Russia is winning, and it’s tactics and strategy are now great.
And how Ukraine, The West, Italy or Germany will have to break ranks and start sueing for peace, while Russia will just go on and on losing people in battle, and losing smart people to anywhere that isn’t Russia where your career as a financial analyst or tach start up entrepreneur could end with an eye blown out in a freezing ditch near some Godforsaken place you had never heard of three days ago.
The Ukrainians are fighting for home, family, culture, and so on…most of the Russians are fighting to get back home without a life changing wound, let alone in a body bag.
That’s why Ukraine will win.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

Would you say retired US generals /Colonels have “little knowledge” of the situation? (Obviously those still in service are toeing the official Military Industrial complex line).. What you assert is “nice” but sadly mere wishful thinking.. Russia is unbeatable I’m afraid.. ask Hitler; ask Napoleon.. they may appear to be beaten but don’t believe it for a minute. For starters its economy is doing well notwithstanding the war! It has many supporters notwithstanding the sanctions. The BRICS and Global South are sick to the back teeth of US hegemony and UK neo colonialism..
I’ll get back to you in a few years and say:
“Ittold ye so, didn’t I?”

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

“Russia is unbeatable I’m afraid.. ask Hitler; ask Napoleon”.

Wrong, the Mongols managed it without too much trouble.

michael harris
michael harris
1 year ago

Russia is unbeatable from the West, Charles, but not from the East.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  michael harris

Max Hoffman & Co managed it in 1918.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  michael harris

Max Hoffman & Co managed it in 1918.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

Nor is their power absolute and uncheckable from the West, or Putin (or likely someone else) would be Premier of the USSR right now.
But maybe Gorbachev’s openness to reform was an unearned Cold War gift.

Neil Ross
Neil Ross
1 year ago

Mongols defeated Kievan Rus, which paved the way for the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the Tsardom of Russia to dominate over the following centuries! Kievan Rus’ main city for much of its existence was modern day Kyiv!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

As did Britain France and Turkey in 1855.
Factually, Russia has lost about as many wars as it has won.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Although we shouldn’t forget that Russian Guardsman dined in Paris in 1814.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Although we shouldn’t forget that Russian Guardsman dined in Paris in 1814.

michael harris
michael harris
1 year ago

Russia is unbeatable from the West, Charles, but not from the East.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

Nor is their power absolute and uncheckable from the West, or Putin (or likely someone else) would be Premier of the USSR right now.
But maybe Gorbachev’s openness to reform was an unearned Cold War gift.

Neil Ross
Neil Ross
1 year ago

Mongols defeated Kievan Rus, which paved the way for the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the Tsardom of Russia to dominate over the following centuries! Kievan Rus’ main city for much of its existence was modern day Kyiv!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

As did Britain France and Turkey in 1855.
Factually, Russia has lost about as many wars as it has won.

David Walters
David Walters
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Unbeatable except in 1856, 1905, 1917 and 1989.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Russia is very beatable, it would have lost relatively easily in the Second World War if
A. It wasn’t heavily supplied with equipment and logistics by the Allies, and
B. H1tler hadn’t stretched his forces too thinly by attacking both Britain and the Soviet Union at the same time.
The Soviets were also the defensive forces during the N@zis initial assaults which generally requires less forces, whereas this time they are attacking which is much more difficult to sustain

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

“Russia is unbeatable I’m afraid.. ask Hitler; ask Napoleon”.

Wrong, the Mongols managed it without too much trouble.

David Walters
David Walters
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Unbeatable except in 1856, 1905, 1917 and 1989.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Russia is very beatable, it would have lost relatively easily in the Second World War if
A. It wasn’t heavily supplied with equipment and logistics by the Allies, and
B. H1tler hadn’t stretched his forces too thinly by attacking both Britain and the Soviet Union at the same time.
The Soviets were also the defensive forces during the N@zis initial assaults which generally requires less forces, whereas this time they are attacking which is much more difficult to sustain

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

Would you say retired US generals /Colonels have “little knowledge” of the situation? (Obviously those still in service are toeing the official Military Industrial complex line).. What you assert is “nice” but sadly mere wishful thinking.. Russia is unbeatable I’m afraid.. ask Hitler; ask Napoleon.. they may appear to be beaten but don’t believe it for a minute. For starters its economy is doing well notwithstanding the war! It has many supporters notwithstanding the sanctions. The BRICS and Global South are sick to the back teeth of US hegemony and UK neo colonialism..
I’ll get back to you in a few years and say:
“Ittold ye so, didn’t I?”

Persephone
Persephone
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

The propaganda runs deep in this one. I suppose you’re still thankful you took the “safe and effective” “vaccines” aye Martin?

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I can’t understand people who with little knowledge of anything much will assert Russia is winning, and it’s tactics and strategy are now great.
And how Ukraine, The West, Italy or Germany will have to break ranks and start sueing for peace, while Russia will just go on and on losing people in battle, and losing smart people to anywhere that isn’t Russia where your career as a financial analyst or tach start up entrepreneur could end with an eye blown out in a freezing ditch near some Godforsaken place you had never heard of three days ago.
The Ukrainians are fighting for home, family, culture, and so on…most of the Russians are fighting to get back home without a life changing wound, let alone in a body bag.
That’s why Ukraine will win.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because they are bleeding the Russians white. Russia is wasting tens of thousands of men in frontal assaults. Why wouldn’t the Ukrainians want that to continue? The casualty ratio is probably 5:1 in their favor. Maybe more.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

The Wehrmacht inflicted 7 to I and still LOST.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago

With Russia’s birth rate (abortion capital of the world!) that won’t work this time.
Also, no one’s going to attack Ukraine from the West to bail the Russkies out this time. Without US and British Lend Lease aid, Russia would have lost badly. 30,000 tanks, 25,000 airplanes, almost every single truck they had after 1942, 100% of their av gas, 100% of their combat rations..

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

At least we made them pay for it in GOLD!
Do you recall H.M.S.Edinburgh?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

To say nothing of the 3000 Allied sailors who died bringing the stuff to Russia.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

At least we made them pay for it in GOLD!
Do you recall H.M.S.Edinburgh?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

To say nothing of the 3000 Allied sailors who died bringing the stuff to Russia.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago

With Russia’s birth rate (abortion capital of the world!) that won’t work this time.
Also, no one’s going to attack Ukraine from the West to bail the Russkies out this time. Without US and British Lend Lease aid, Russia would have lost badly. 30,000 tanks, 25,000 airplanes, almost every single truck they had after 1942, 100% of their av gas, 100% of their combat rations..

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Western MSM I’m afraid.. Ukraine is already as good as defeated.. 150,000 dead; 257,000 seriously wounded.. we’re just waiting for the fat lady to sing the dirge.. Why do you think the US, UK, Poland et al are readying their own troops to take over? Tragically, no more Ukrainian fighters left. Great business for the US military industrial complex but thats about it.. that’s the US’s last hope to save the One World Order and Dollarisation..
Personally, I think it’s screwed and may well resort to nuclear weapons soon: not Russia mind. NATO/US.. no option left (except go under).. the elite have their nuke shelters so they’ll be okay …they think!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

That’s why you can only trust the outer-fringe, anti-Western media!

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

This is pure Russian propaganda. Lie after lie after lie.
If Russia has made casualties of 100% of the pre-war Ukrainian army plus 200,000, why can’t they advance?
If NATO wanted to get involved, it would destroy the entire Russian military in two weeks.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

That’s why you can only trust the outer-fringe, anti-Western media!

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

This is pure Russian propaganda. Lie after lie after lie.
If Russia has made casualties of 100% of the pre-war Ukrainian army plus 200,000, why can’t they advance?
If NATO wanted to get involved, it would destroy the entire Russian military in two weeks.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

the Russians or the Ukraine are NOT sending thousands of men in human wave attacks, if they were we would have seen videos of it by now

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

We saw plenty of videos of Russians being massacred in the fields around Bakhmut. You must have ignored them.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

We saw plenty of videos of Russians being massacred in the fields around Bakhmut. You must have ignored them.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

The Wehrmacht inflicted 7 to I and still LOST.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Western MSM I’m afraid.. Ukraine is already as good as defeated.. 150,000 dead; 257,000 seriously wounded.. we’re just waiting for the fat lady to sing the dirge.. Why do you think the US, UK, Poland et al are readying their own troops to take over? Tragically, no more Ukrainian fighters left. Great business for the US military industrial complex but thats about it.. that’s the US’s last hope to save the One World Order and Dollarisation..
Personally, I think it’s screwed and may well resort to nuclear weapons soon: not Russia mind. NATO/US.. no option left (except go under).. the elite have their nuke shelters so they’ll be okay …they think!

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

the Russians or the Ukraine are NOT sending thousands of men in human wave attacks, if they were we would have seen videos of it by now

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Correct.. whatever Western MSM tells you it’s likely the opposite is true, eg Ukraine is winning, Russia is losing.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Right. “Democracy is preferable to the alternatives”. “Don’t drink gasoline”.
It’s a good thing the mainstream media is an easily detected veil that simply needs to be flipped inside out for a clear and correct view. Whereas everything that paranoid, angry cranks or cynical self-promoters like like Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson say is quite reliable–wait, are those two guys too mainstream to trust also?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Right. “Democracy is preferable to the alternatives”. “Don’t drink gasoline”.
It’s a good thing the mainstream media is an easily detected veil that simply needs to be flipped inside out for a clear and correct view. Whereas everything that paranoid, angry cranks or cynical self-promoters like like Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson say is quite reliable–wait, are those two guys too mainstream to trust also?

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because the russians are losing 10-20 times more? It has kept them focused on one area of the vast front for a very long time, too.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because the defences are strong. it destroys so many Russians.
And if they take it, they’re creating defences just as strong behind it.
Remember how Pisky was supposed to be the “winning” battle?
Before that Sieverodonetsk?
…before that Hostomel?
…before that…

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because they are bleeding the Russians white. Russia is wasting tens of thousands of men in frontal assaults. Why wouldn’t the Ukrainians want that to continue? The casualty ratio is probably 5:1 in their favor. Maybe more.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Correct.. whatever Western MSM tells you it’s likely the opposite is true, eg Ukraine is winning, Russia is losing.

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because the russians are losing 10-20 times more? It has kept them focused on one area of the vast front for a very long time, too.

M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Mariupol. Severdonesk. Lysichansk. The three actual battles. All won by RF. The Bahkmut-Siversk line is the last deeply fortified line. When it breaks it is on to Kramatorsk. Probably by May.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Can we get back to you on that one.
In May?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Funny how after those “victories” the Ukrainians took Kherson and Kharkiv. Far larger territories than all of those combined.
The Russian Army isn’t exactly a juggernaut, is it?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

So (or similar) said the Wermacht and Napoleon before that.. didn’t quite end up like that though did it?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Problem is, Putin doesn’t have 5 million like Stalin did.
Better not listen to Strelkov’s latest video, then, where he strongly advises Putin against an offensive, for which they are totally unprepared.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Problem is, Putin doesn’t have 5 million like Stalin did.
Better not listen to Strelkov’s latest video, then, where he strongly advises Putin against an offensive, for which they are totally unprepared.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

So (or similar) said the Wermacht and Napoleon before that.. didn’t quite end up like that though did it?

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Can we get back to you on that one.
In May?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Funny how after those “victories” the Ukrainians took Kherson and Kharkiv. Far larger territories than all of those combined.
The Russian Army isn’t exactly a juggernaut, is it?

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Na, the Russians are slowly winning

When they take Bakhmut. We will be told its of no real significance, but if that’s true, why did the Ukraine hold on for so long, losing so much men and equipment for nothing

M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Mariupol. Severdonesk. Lysichansk. The three actual battles. All won by RF. The Bahkmut-Siversk line is the last deeply fortified line. When it breaks it is on to Kramatorsk. Probably by May.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Russia is now transitioning from the delusional to the psychotic.
Before, Putin and those who count in Russia had just totally misread Ukraine, the EU and the US.
Bakhmut signals the New Phase.
Now Putin defies reality, and keeps ordering the automaton that is the Russian Army to smash itself to pieces in places like Bakhmut and Vuhledar.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago

One thing that seems increasingly more clear is that this war will continue for a very long time even if this phase were to end soon.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I believe that was the NATO (ie US) plan from the beginning. Nobody gives a flying wassit for Ukraine or its people.. it’s just a proxy war to eviscerate Russia (which will never happen) and wreck Europe which is well under way! it’s all going according to plan.. no losers except Ukrainian lives and European economies.. The US loves it (thinking Russia is weakening.. wrong!) and the EU is screwed.. right. Putin is also remaking European history and his economy is thriving.. these are the winners.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Then what you are really saying is the US is run by super-humans who can predict every alternative in the world far into the future?
Again, it totally changes my view of Joe Biden.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Then what you are really saying is the US is run by super-humans who can predict every alternative in the world far into the future?
Again, it totally changes my view of Joe Biden.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I believe that was the NATO (ie US) plan from the beginning. Nobody gives a flying wassit for Ukraine or its people.. it’s just a proxy war to eviscerate Russia (which will never happen) and wreck Europe which is well under way! it’s