Are vaccine passports a hugely controversial infringement on our liberties? Not really — most people want them used for hospitality, offices, and even social gatherings. And the public favours compulsory jabs for nurses, regardless of how nurses themselves feel about this.
Over three quarters of the population can cheerfully contemplate social distancing measures remaining in place until autumn. There is widespread, even overwhelming support for police enforcing lockdown measures.
A majority of Britons even think a 10-year jail sentence for lying about your country of departure is fair, while 13% think it’s not harsh enough! I wonder what proportion of that 13% would support actually hanging them.
All the predictions that the British public would not tolerate harsh lockdown measures are completely contradicted by the polls, which show the Chinese government to be more in tune with the great British public than Boris Johnson is.
Contrary to all the predictions that we would never tolerate surveillance in return for the end of Covid, I reckon the average Englishman would happily have a microchip in his arm if it meant he could go down the pub.
Sure, this is the home of Magna Carta and we can make a reasonable claim to being the birthplace of liberalism, but John Locke’s ideas were much more influential in the United States than in his home country.
Like much of our politics, our political-psychological idea of ourselves comes from the Civil War era. It was around that time that the phrase “free-born Englishman” was coined by Leveller John Lilburne, and they put him in prison.
Had YouGov been around in the 17th century, a significant majority would probably have supported this, with another 13% wanting him burned to death, and the liberty-loving sect to which Lilburne belonged, the Quakers, were deeply unpopular for a long time.
The Levellers believed that Englishmen had once been free, a natural liberty that had been crushed by the Norman Yoke; before that foreign occupation brought about the class system and privilege, free Saxons sat around in the forests of Olde England, presumably talking about cricket and the weather. It’s an appealing national myth and, of course, completely untrue; slavery was widespread in Anglo-Saxon England, before being abolished by the Normans.
Likewise, Lilburne thought that free-born Englishmen had their rights laid down by Magna Carta: “the ground of my freedom,” as he said, “I build upon the Grand charter of England”.
Magna Carta, although it had nothing to say about the ordinary peasant, did evolve to restrain royal authority — but even here it has been more influential in the United States, where its legacy can be read in the constitution (Clauses 39 and 40, for instance, influencing the 5th Amendment).
Although three clauses are still on the statute books in England, attempts to make Magna Carta a sort of sacred English text of freedom have always been quite a fringe affair.
Among the wilder shores of the lockdown sceptic movement, there are modern-day sects of sort who cite Magna Carta Clause 61 to oppose Covid measures, claiming it allows “for lawful dissent and rebellion” and that businesses don’t have to close under Covid-19 regulations.
That Clause 61, which gave the leading barons the right to overthrow the king, did not appear in the approved 1225 version of Magna Carta makes no difference to their enthusiasm for this idea. It’s a myth, based on an idea of the English as being inherently free. Yet these groups are minuscule, and for most people our supposedly sacred freedom is not thought about much; Oliver Cromwell was probably onto something, public opinion-wise, when he referred to the document as Magna Farta.
And whereas America has the First Amendment, the British have come to accept a huge number of hate speech laws down the years, with Blair’s government being particularly illiberal on this issue, to the extent that police are now investigating 120,000 “non-crime” hate incidents.
Indeed, so well-known are the Britons for being downtrodden by overzealous, interfering government authorities that there is a meme in other English-speaking countries called “have you got a licence for that, mate?” making fun of us.
We are now the most spied upon country outside of the People’s Republic of China, London being the only non-Chinese city in the top 10 of CCTV global hotspots. And despite this, CCTV is very popular among the British public.
Perhaps it’s because the British love spying on people, which certainly is a national characteristic dating back to Francis Walsingham. Or perhaps we like being spied on. We think the reduction in crime justifies the loss of liberty, just as the reduction in coronavirus deaths does.
In which case, which people are being referred to when we are told that “British people will never accept these sorts of restrictions”?
There is, it’s true, a strong liberal and Whig tradition in Britain, of which Boris Johnson is an inheritor, but they are certainly not the majority. On the political axis the median British voter sits somewhere in the top left quadrant, neither economically nor socially liberal, with culturally conservative and redistributive views.
The largest block after that are the progressives, who care most about equality and have barely-concealed authoritarian leanings. Then there are the genuine liberals, of which there are about 17 in Britain.
We tend to group like this because the major driving force in the British psyche is not liberty but fairness, and its step-brother spite. This is a country which hates benefit scroungers yet gets hugely sentimental about the issue of free school meals, because its people hate the idea of someone cheating the system. The one SW1 story that broke through with the public in recent years was the Dominic Cummings Barnard Castle saga — because it upset people’s sense of fairness.
The British are, in fact, quite conformist and placid. The French riot about literally anything, while after epic levels of political incompetence and 120,000 deaths, the worst that’s happened here is someone projecting “Boris is a wet wipe” on Parliament.
There’s a reason why an Englishman in the late 1930s might have seen himself as uniquely free-born and liberty-loving. Our political history and lucky geography has graced us with centuries of moderate politics, avoiding the ideological nightmares of our neighbours. But that doesn’t make us particularly freedom-living; indeed if it anything it makes us complacent about our good fortune.
Most of the British public still support Robin Hood against the Sheriff of Nottingham, but not because they care about freedom. It’s because they care about fairness. They don’t want a free England, they want a fair England.
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SubscribeWhere I live in a small shire town I see a people quietly ignoring aspects of the government rules whenever they conflict with their lives. If anything important has to be done then it is done. I get around and notice things. The young boys and girls are meeting up .I passed a jolly group of them last night just doing what the young always do. The police? Too slow and always too late to see what is going on and I think very reluctant to impose themselves. . I do not recognise this picture of a people bowed down and servile. The curtain twitchers are probably about but they always are. The reality I see is very English. Just getting on with things and ignoring the rules if it suits us. Ok when you meet up with the state in public buildings and the like it is a bit tricky. They do like to see us masked in them and the shops. But that is no big deal now. As for informers. There are probably a few but rare I think .
When is all this mass masking idiocy going to stop altogether, now that we know so-called “asymptomatic transmission” of this virus almost never happens? It’s transmitted in the same way flu and other coronaviruses (aka cold viruses) are transmitted, by people who are actually sick. People with symptoms of any kind of respiratory illness should be advised to stay home if they can, as they have always been advised, and most will. Mask wearing might make a tiny bit of difference in those cases, if sick people have to be in indoor spaces like buses and not able to physically distance from people. But it still should be voluntary (when it isn’t, I can just see people suffering from non-contagious conditions like hay fever or allergies, or just people trying to clear their throats, being treated like lepers if they aren’t wearing the face diaper). Most people who are actually contagious are courteous enough not to cough or sneeze into the air, or on other people. I love seeing people refusing to wear masks, and it seems like, in my city anyway, there are more and more who are finally saying “Enough” with the disgusting things.
I voted for your comment but it isn’t showing up in the ratings.
You have to keep stabbing the thumb – eventually it gives them several more votes at once, but that doesn’t matter because now they’re anonymous. Come back Disqus, all is forgiven
Careful what you wish for. They have not been universally approved of elsewhere – over at Guido Fawkes, for example.
I am sorry but I must disagree. For the past eleven months, Disqus has been fine. There was a one week hiatus in the autumn but it was soon solved.
This present system is dreadful in nearly every respect, perhaps deliberately so.
It must improve!
How about a conspiracy theory … maybe we are now involved in a classic behavioural experiment where the number of times we are prepared to press the same “lever” to get our reward demonstrates the apparent popularity of the functionality
I just upvoted it and it came up twice. Think they’re having teething problems with the old ‘if it isn’t broke’ system. Doesn’t show you any more who else voted either for some reason.
I had to press the ‘thumbs up’ icon 21 times for it to work!
Well said. I always associate Masks with Executioners, or Bandits.
It was understood that, in the Wild West at least, the baddies had masks over their faces (to rob banks and rustle cattle etc), and the goodies (like the cavilry) had masks tied behind their necks…. ‘cos they had nothing to hide.
One supposes all that money invested in facial recognition will be wasted. A mask and a pair of sunglasses will be the apparel of choice for all freedom loving individuals and those with nefarious intent. How can the police and government enforce de-masking the population if we ever get a degree of freedom back.
That is what the “chips” are for…
A joke going around our little town is: “now you go into a store with a mask on and come out with less money”.
Yes, all bar one, The Lone Ranger!
Thumbs up…and yes, the thumbs up icon seems to be slow of function this day. Oh I miss Discus. Why did someone let the children mess with this good site?
In that case you have liked the comment 21 times. The ‘adding-up’ of likes isn’t always immediate,a s you may notice when it does change and jumps several numbers.
I have several times liked a comment only once, but the number jumped up considerably…but now I always reply “Thumbs up” in addition.
On the 22nd strike it finally registered 1 uptick,
I just ‘upticked you’ and I have something I always wanted. You were on 8 thumbs up. I clicked on the thumbs up and it jumped to 13.
Can I have 5 votes in the next election, or is that restricted to places like Tower Hamlets?
Dominion software? .
Thumbs up.
Lol
Sadly only Tower Hamlets, so far.
or moose-limbs.
I associate masks with people not infecting others, thereby saving lives.
If we were issued with a standard NATO, NBC Masks, I would agree with you, but we haven’t, so somebody is ramping this whole dreadful saga!
Thumbs up.
Here in progressive Portland, we are in the process of vaccinating much of the population. Whenever I ask Now What? – Can those of us who are vaccinated gather for Happy Hour with our friends? Can we eat indoors? – Must we still wear masks and for how long? No on knows including it seems our Mayor or Governor.
When I dare ask then why are we all spending hours on the phone to get our appointments for vaccination, no one knows that either. – It is just what we are suppose to do.
One friend who hated Trump and watched every minute of the impeachment hearings hoping he would be hung, was in a total tizzy because when walking in the park, she came upon a group of young fathers and their young children all of whom were maskless.
When I mentioned to her, that the park was pretty big and she could walk on another trail, that wasn’t enough.. She has joined the mask police. a group that has replaced the regular defunded police.
Francis Foster on Triggernometry remarked that none of these restrictions were going to go away. LIke the Patriot Act and taking off shoes at the airport, once those in power realize how easy it is to get an entire freedom loving population to adhere to the “rules”, they will never end.
If one of those young Fathers started off with the infection, they’re liable to spread it to all the rest. And everyone’s children. The adults may suffer from long-Covid (you don’t need to be old to get that, apparently) and they will certainly be breathing it out and leaving it on door handles. Which will eventually infect someone who will come to serious harm as a result.
What, to you, is an acceptable level of infections?
How do you feel about the experimental vaccine that’s being pushed upon us?
I feel sorry for someone so brainwashed by the lies we’ve been fed. Covid19 has a roughly 97% survival rate. There will be/have always been people who will suffer more from any virus or illness. Locking up the rest of us in response to that is madness. You should worry more about catching Hepatitis on public transport
Err, if that is right, it represents about 2 million people in the UK dying – which is 3 times the usual annual death rate. And all in a compressed period of time.
Actually I think it’s about 1% but that still potentially doubles the usual number of deaths per year. I think we can see why the government took action and changed its policy so radically.
…shut the gate, stay inside, do what mummy tells you. There’s something nasty in the woodshed….
“People with symptoms of any kind of respiratory illness should be advised to stay home if they can, as they have always been advised, and most will. Mask wearing might make a tiny bit of difference in those cases, …..But it still should be voluntary ………Most people who are actually contagious are courteous enough not to cough or sneeze into the air, or on other people.
I love seeing people refusing to wear masks”
Plenty of people who have the infection and are contagious, do not realise it. They only develop symptoms later. So your statements about people with symptoms being the only people who need to avoid spreading the disease to others are misinformed.
I am allergic to certain nuts and had a sneezing fit in Lidl ( had to take my mask off) earlier today. When it was over half the shop seemed to have emptied.
Paranoia is definitely the new normal.
Asymptomatic or presymptomatic ? 2 different beasts and one of them very definitely transmits. Citations provided on request.
Shedders shed just by talking you don’t have to forcibly expel air to spread any sort of bug.
You have a touching faith in people if you think everyone with symptoms will self isolate tout suite. There are plenty of bods who can’t / won’t for many reasons including economic. If the majority of people with symptoms had self isolated all the way through this pandemic there would have been an average flu like winter in 2020 in the UK and no problem with a shortage of hospital beds in the spring.
There are at least 0.5 million front line workers just in the NHS who wear masks for a portion or all of their working days throughout their working lives. I wore one for 40 years and I am still alive to tell the tale.
Nothing disgusting about reducing the number of microbes and viruses you are spreading around. Tourists from Asia (I am currently based in Florence, Italy) do it routinely, all the time, just like the Italians, right now.
“There are plenty of bods who can’t / won’t for many reasons including economic.”
Precisely, for far too many “ pulling a sicky” is just not on, nor for that matter is mask wearing except under duress.
Sir John Hawkwood, the 14th century Essex super-thug whose image graces ‘your’ Duomo, and whose descendants are probably splattered all over southern England is a obvious progenitor of that ‘can do’ attitude, that ‘works’ regardless of the risks. Wrong perhaps, but some old habits die very very hard, as the today’s figures from Essex may illustrate.
It will end if enough “normal” people stop following the rules. Many have been prepared to go along with the decrees while contagion was a risk to the vulnerable but very soon there will be no more people at risk. That I feel is the point where the government will have the choice of reacting to events (people ignoring an unfair/stupid law/decree) or governing with consent.
Last week I went for a run in our village. There was a police car sitting outside a fish & chip shop and the two ossifers were enjoying themselves having their meal. Around them there was a gang of kids on bikes just laughing at them. A group of four adults and three kids also passed and waved at them in the car. All smiles. Nice to know that life just goes on.
Thats about right. Its part of “Policing-
by-Consent of which there is a lot less
this year than last.
You say A chippie – you mean you’ve
got more than one in your village?
There’s posh, lookyou
Thumbs up.
Thumbs up.
I see the same in our rural area-life goes on, away from the urban hive of persons living in unnatural proximity, not constantly engaged with elitist and government news sources-connected with neighbors and day to day reality of human living, rather than electronic media.
That’s just how it seems to be in Somerset and Wiltshire as far as I can see.
I can second that. People kinda follow the rules and use their common sense. But most people are at the stage now, that they feel enough is enough. If the vulnerable are vaccinated and the rest of us are getting there or already have some immunity there is ZERO justification for continuing this crazy unnatural state of affairs. We live with deaths from flu, old age, heart attack, cancer and much more every year. Death and illness are, sadly, a part of life. but life, surely, must go on – otherwise what is the point of living at all?
A thought provoking article…and I’ve thought about it and it’s cr*p! The author should get out more, he’s totally misread the nature of the English (yes, some are, but most are not)
This article is so flawed it’s reminscent of a CNN editorial reporting on a Republican convention.
You’re spot on, but to ‘know’ England takes years of travel and conversation.
I’ve been at it for more than sixty years and still feel I’m only in the foothills.
But what fun!
The author seems to equate opinion polls with what people actually think. If the govt can ‘require’ radio stations to bombard us with propaganda it’s not much of a stretch to assume they are requiring polling organisations to deliver the results they want.
So that’s why the Tories were recently ahead in the polls.
Same here. Nice little town in the Midlands and people ignore the rules mostly when it’s in their way. Cases are under the average according to the BBC.
The police? I haven’t seen a policeman once for the four years I have lived in this town.
I think there is a great divide between rural and urban, as always. Most of the rules were invented to keep people away from each other in crammed cities. They do not necessarily make sense in the countryside.
Several thoughts from me on this:
1) This article from Unherd earlier in the year addressed exactly the same question and found that the more “English” you were, the more you were likely to favour authoritarian positions: https://unherd.com/2020/04/why-have-the-english-sacrificed-liberty-for-lockdown/
By referring to the “British” public, the article misses that interesting point. I completely agree with the point made about progressives taking a more authoritarian, pro lockdown view. This tallies completely with my own experience over the last 12 months. Strangely, the most pro-lockdown people I know are the ones who proudly call themselves “liberals” which suggests a severe level of cognitive dissonance.
2) Is it possible that the British are being pragmatic and have simply understood that this restriction on freedom is necessary – “the right thing to do” for society – and is therefore accepted because of the belief that of course freedom will be restored over the long term? Just because they haven’t rioted, it doesn’t mean that the love of freedom has been lost or was always a myth. Maybe there has simply been widespread recognition that delayed gratification is the way forward here. And surely it is a very British thing not to riot but to simply get a bit sniffy and quietly think “right on!” when reading Allison Pearson’s diatribes about restrictions on personal freedom in the DT? This is a country, after all, that expresses severe displeasure at someone jumping a queue by muttering under one’s breath or exhaling loudly through the nostrils. No one does passive aggression like the British.
3) The British may not have risen up against the lockdown measures but they sure did have a lively discussion about them, from the moment they were introduced onwards. It took a full 3 weeks of total lockdown in “deference-to-authority-is-me” Austria for anyone to even give half a whimper about whether the measures were proportionate or not. That fierce debate in Britain must be indicative of some level of commitment to one’s personal freedom.
4) About British complacency. It does often cross my mind whether the British truly understand what hard work freedom is. Post-Brexit, the country will be entering an entirely new situation whereby it has “regained its sovereignty” (whatever that means in practice) but it is no longer a great power. Being free is easy when you’re powerful because you can make and break the rules when you see fit. When you’re not a hegemon, it’s tough. Perhaps it will be worth it and having to work hard to flourish as an independent country will reestablish that traditional love of freedom. However, the reality of that freedom is going to be a shock.
That was a great post Katharine and it took quite a lot of reading. What you say is true but I think it deals primarily with the kind of intellectuals you find on UnHerd. Only a very low percentage of the population could write a reasoned argument as you just did.
If you move to the people I talk to every day, who haven’t got time to listen to my arguments but they may follow with interest the movements of the Royal Family, discussion about freedom and resistance to lockdown just don’t exist. Maybe now there is a move to change but that might just be boredom, something else to talk about.
I think that most people were terrified when this virus came, for themselves or for their family, and they wanted someone to come along and tell them how to be safe. It helped that most of our neighbours in the First World had gone in and out of lockdown as well.
We are lucky because we tend to follow the rules, but not as slavishly as the Austrians or Germans, and we are happy with queuing. I lived in Italy for a while and I had to queue to get a driving licence. After a couple of hours I hadn’t moved in the queue and then a colleague found me, said to follow him and I got my licence about 10 minutes later. I would rather our way of doing things. The downside is that we don’t make waves and tend to listen to authority too much.
We suffer because when a new thing comes along, BAME or LGBQT+, we tend to watch quietly while it takes over our culture rather than get out into the streets and stop it. So we will lose badly with these new fashions as well as being the country which follows the environmentalists to the letter, without any argument or proper discussion.
Thumbs up.
Your views of the ‘common people’ leave a lot to be desired. Actually I think there is an argument for shipping some of our educated/academics away as far as possible. I for one would contribute passage funds, when you see the damage they are doing to our society. As for the others mentioned in Mr Wheatley’s piece, they both have their agendas which we should all be very worried about. Regarding us, I agree that there is a misguided view that we all want to be liberals. In any event to be truly liberal you have to be really grown up to use liberalism correctly and I think very few fall into that category, evidence of which we see daily.
I quoted Orwell
I agree that we do tend to watch & mutter under our breath rather than confront people. I’ve always felt that this was, in part, out of manners more than anything else. There is also the feeling that you may have misread the situation. Personally I assume anyone unmasked has either a medical reason to do so or is making a stand. I don’t understand why other people get so aggressive about this to the point of rudeness. Our government shoving it down our throat on a daily basis that we are being selfish & uncaring (if I see that propaganda broadcast asking “can you look them in the eye…” once more I shall need a new television) doesn’t help. We are a nation of rule followers on the whole even when we don’t believe in those rules. The dissatisfaction with the EU started because our government implemented all the rules & diktats. Having travelled round Europe I am well aware that every other country merely paid lip service.
The most interesting comment to that article you quote from was,I thought, from Andy Young Esq:
“I wonder how many older people (like me) have simply withdrawn from the modern version of England anyway? The perpetual virtue signalling, victim worship & pettifogging officialdom have hacked me off big time; I was pretty well self isolating before the virus.”
Has anything improved in the past ten months? If so how so?
True…and thumbs up.
I haven’t been able to do a ‘thumbs up’ this morning but when I just tried a moment ago, like London buses…………
Andy Young like all the old people has a rosy view (selective) of Good Old England
George Orwell – the LIon and Unicorn
But in all societies the common people must live to some extent against the existing order. The genuinely popular culture of England is something that goes on beneath the surface, unofficially and more or less frowned on by the authorities. One thing one notices if one looks directly at the common people, especially in the big towns, is that they are not puritanical. They are inveterate gamblers, drink as much beer as their wages will permit, are devoted to bawdy jokes, and use probably the foulest language in the world. They have to satisfy these tastes in the face of astonishing, hypocritical laws (licensing laws, lottery acts, etc. etc.) which are designed to interfere with everybody but in practice allow everything to happen.
Funny, I have always thought of that as one the greatest eulogies to the English ever written,
(even the precis you have quoted).
It’s up there with “This Royal Throne of Kings………
I’m completely confused. How does Orwell’s wonderful take on the England of his day conflict with my post? I read all George Orwell’s works when I was in my 20s & found them as accurate & inspirational then as I do today (my one quarrel is his contention that there is something innately superior & admirable about the working class; I’ve always found people’s characters to be independent of class or wealth). And I find P J Harvey’s Last Living Rose to be a wonderful reflection on Englishness. Hardly a rosy view!
Summarises my feelings exactly.
A wonderful post. Thank you. I think on point 2 you are right – the acceptance that it seemed necessary was my default position during the first lockdown. And the delayed gratification is certainly a nice thought. It will indeed be interesting when those who have continued to accept the restrictions since then, without being personally affected to any degree by them, realise that we won’t just be handed our freedoms back with the vaccine rollout. Those of us whose lives and mental health have been slashed to bits by the restrictions have had to start thinking about how to regain freedom, and as you say, it’s not an easy path.
I would, however, like to state for the record that, having lived in Germany for many years, the Germans beat us hands down in their use of passive aggression! *sigh* We can’t even be world-beating in that regard . . . 😉
Thanks, KR. In terms of how we are going to come through this, this quote by G. Michael Hopf seems apt:
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
I think the whole of Western Europe finds itself at the end of one repetition of this, ready to begin again…the good times will return!
“In terms of how we are going to come through this, this quote by G. Michael Hopf seems apt:
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
I think the whole of Western Europe finds itself at the end of one repetition of this, ready to begin again…the good times will return!”
Reflecting the quote on the 20th century’s first half, it becomes quite frightening. As for your eagerness for such strong men to return, have you really thought that through?
“Strong men” clearly isn’t meant in that way, otherwise it would read: “strong men create hard times”!
All the men who served in combat especially where the death rate was high and risked torture and death. One example would be the sailors and Commandos on the St Nazaire Raid, where more VCs were won more quickly by few er people than any other action in WW2. Commandos on the raid included scholars and poets
If I may ask how did you get that smiling icon to appear.
When I try on my mini I-pad it never posts!?
Sheer luck, probably! I typed it as a semicolon followed by a closing bracket, rather than as an emoji, if that helps.
Many thanks, it must be some tech glitz that I don’t undestand
An interesting post.
The leading point for me was the reference to pragmatism: a general (but not universal or absolute) acceptance after consideration that a temporary restriction on freedom may be sensible. It’s a question of being reasonable in difficult circumstances.
The English do love freedom, but – if I can put it this way – not slavishly.
Yes, William – exactly! In recent days I asked an Austrian friend of mine whether there was an equivalent in German for the English saying “if you can’t beat them, join them.” He said he thought the notion of giving up just because things weren’t going well wasn’t really something that was part of his culture and therefore there was no specific phrase that equated to it.
I was really surprised to see the phrase being interpreted in that way. I never saw this saying or any of the situations in which I might use it as “giving up”! It’s more an expression of that characteristic you mention – being pragmatic and reasonable in difficult circumstances. “If you can’t beat them, join them” shows an Englishman (or a British person…who knows these days?) realising that, this time, there’s good reason to depart from cherished principles.
“If you can’t beat them, join them” has nothing to do with giving up. I was taught by my father that you can
Sorry – this new system is almost unworkable – the post comment box gets in the way.
As I was saying – my father taught me that you can change things from within & I feel that this is what is left unspoken at the end of “if you can’t beat them…” Far from giving up then more like a Trojan horse!
Excellent observations all, I must say. There is one thing I’d add to this, and it’s that the article itself sort of fails to follow up on an obvious question that is begged in the final paragraph.
“Most of the British public still support Robin Hood against the Sheriff of Nottingham, but not because they care about freedom. It’s because they care about fairness. They don’t want a free England, they want a fair England.”
The whole point of freedom, not just in the UK but anywhere, is that it is ultimately essential to the principle of fairness. It is also essentially connected with democracy (though you can have a chicken/egg debate about that one, of course).
Turning the argument back to England specifically, if people want a fair England but think it can be achieved without personal liberty, they will quickly discover that fairness only extends as far as the majoritarian will permits. If you happen not to be served by what is considered “fair” by the majority, get ready to be shafted.
And in fact of course, the observation of the crucial importance of this is upheld in what we define as democracy to be a system of government that operates on popular consent, but avoids the pitfalls of the tyranny of the majority. This is precisely why minorities, whether racial, cultural, religious, sexual orientation etc, find that they are safest in democracies as opposed to other systems.
And let’s not forget the obvious example of a minority – the wealthy among us. If you ask people if it’s “fair” that there is such a disparity of wealth in the UK, most will say not, and will support things like more progressive taxation as a response to the issue in narrow, on-the-spot terms. This has been true more of less forever in the UK in terms of social attitudes. Yet here we are, with lots of wealth inequality anyway. The reason for it is simple: as soon as people come to understand the likely effects of taking a shot at someone they perceive as better-off than themselves, they realise that it may well come back to bite them in the arse one day. This is what underpins liberty: the understanding that we are not atomised players in the game of life, but mutually interdependent and incapable of either harming or being harmed without the harm affecting others in myriad ways.
The final point I’ll make about why I think this article’s conclusion is wrong is simply this: we’re not out of this experiment yet. We still have millions on furlough, and the rest of us still in work are operating on an odd sort of doublethink that is powered by the idea that all this extra debt will sort of get paid by other people somehow. Taking a view on social attitudes towards a massive economic catastrophe that hasn’t fired anyone yet and hasn’t hit us in the wallet yet is no sort of view at all: the number aren’t in, and the reactions of people to the cold hard facts don’t yet exist.
When that happens, freedom is going to reassert by default, in the form of “I’d never have put up with 2020 if I’d known that’d happen…” etc.
Good post and difficult to respond to in its entirety.
Personal liberty and freedom of thought is often mentioned on UnHerd but I’m not sure that it is seen in the same way across the whole population. In general elections roughly two-thirds vote, in council elections about one-third. These proportions allow a concerted takeover of local councils. The same people who did not vote will complain that things are going to the dogs but they won’t realise that they are responsible for it. In a funny sort of way (note the use of ‘funny’) we don’t have freedom because people are too cosy to use it.
In schools today, children are taught that the British were evil warmongers in the past and that white people have to feel ashamed. Where is the freedom of speech which stops this? Universities are playing all sorts of games with who they let in and what they teach. Where is the freedom of speech which stops this?
There is an excellent book by Tsvetlana Alexievich where she interviews about 120 Russian people about 13 years after Gorbachev. About half describe how they used to worry what they said in their own homes because they feared that the KGB was listening to their conversations – they now felt better because they could talk as they liked. The other half wanted to go back to the ways things were because then they had a guaranteed job, guaranteed (boring) food, guaranteed education for their children – they said they had got used to being careful what they said. They mentioned that they could in the past go out for a walk in the park at midnight without meeting drug addicts or armed gangs.
When I worked in a factory in a rundown area of a city, people bemoaned the fact that they couldn’t take their families for a meal into the city centre at weekend because it was too dangerous. So, they had the freedom to complain but not a great deal of freedom of action. Some lived in council estates and would not leave the house at night. I think some of those people would exchange their freedom of speech for other freedoms in life.
I too consider ‘fairness’ a key characteristic of the British mentality and that freedom and fairness are intrinsically connected.
Fairness is neither justice nor equality. It is a subjective value that appeals to children more than anyone. The perfect example of fairness by government was provided by Obama when asked, “why raise capital gains tax when history shows that it actually decreases the amount the government collects?” He replied “It’s a question of fairness.”
I see what you mean. It is subjective (in adults) and children are very sensitive to it. Obama’s view of the capital gains tax is a perfect example. He thinks a sizable capital gain is unfair to everybody who doesn’t have one.
What is certain would have been to surrender freedom in the EU. Freedom means voting to choose your leaders.
Yes, I can understand that point of view and tend towards it myself. Because I think of self-determination as being an indispensable ingredient of freedom. However, you can spin it the other way: giving up some national sovereignty to be a member of the EU meant you got other freedoms in return. The most important having been the freedom to live and work in any other member state.
That transaction between freedoms in the EU that you mention is a false choice and a bad deal as far as I’m concerned. The reason I say so is that surrendering national sovereignty is an irreversible act, but the freedoms gained in terms of what Brussels permits are things that can be changed at will by Brussels without further reference to the wishes of the nation-State voters. It therefore possesses an asymmetry which makes it impossible to commoditise the various freedoms in question.
The ONLY reason, in the end, I voted remain, and now, living in France I’m a convinced Brexiteer – thank god we got out when we did
I agree with that. And it comes down to some who find it an acceptable trade-off and some who don’t. For me, there should never have been a ‘right or wrong’ answer to the question of whether to leave the EU or not. It really hacked off a lot of people that it was positioned that there really was only one ‘acceptable’ choice on the ballot. If you have only one choice on a ballot you don’t live in a democracy and you are not free.
I would argue against your second point. I suspect an awful lot of people are complying because they truly believe that Covid is a deadly disease that will kill the average person. What other explanation is there for people leaping two yards if you get too close or the slim healthy looking 40 something masked up to the eyeballs inside their own car! (40 years old? it’s in the eyes ;-)).
One thing is clear the country is splitting into those who favour more lockdowns and are happy to fester in front of their TV’s forever and the others who are getting very very tired of this and are wondering what the hell is really going on? Moving goalposts are exceedingly suspicious and are indicative of a.n.other reason that they don’t want to talk about.
“ I suspect an awful lot of people are complying because they truly believe that Covid is a deadly disease that will kill the average person. “
Yes, around 120,000 people in the UK (plus their families) believe Covid kills you.
I’m aware of an under-40 and an under-60 who have died of it, among my wider circle of acquaintances.
Geepers Chris, people dying. How awful. There definately should be a law against that.
And the average of UK C-19 death is a truly staggering 82.4, whilst life expectancy is 81.1 This is truly the end of civilisation as we knew it.
I think it’s sad there are many who “fester in front of their TVs” Several I know, despite many weeks of lockdown last year, found absolutely nothing to do outside existing TV / Netflix (etc), 2 wouldn’t even do permitted exercise time. Education, on-line info, easier ways to become involved in different interests than ever before all seem to count for nothing. Of course govt and capitalism probably prefer it – nothing like bread and circuses and parochial prograganda to keep populace distracted from expanding horizons & the critical questioning of power that that might bring.
I agree with much of what you say. It just strikes me as odd that the British also utterly rebelled and rejected the hegemon of the elites and the EU to vote Brexit and even after years of slander and fearmongering still voted to Get Brexit Done, shocking the hell out of the opposition.
A well put together set of ideas! Surprisingly I have not read anywhere of the experience I had in my working life in the oil and chemical industry. The staff of such businesses learn to live with both very strict Health and Safety rules, and the freedom, obligation even, to be creative and open minded about solving complex problems. I have witnessed two fires and one explosion in my working life and they were terrifying; thank God no one was killed. But not even the most forgetful tried to take matches onto a refinery site or boiled ether in an open laboratory. In fact the HSE investigation actually suggested the bigger of the two fires was started by a poorly thought out safety regulation! Katherines point 2 is very well made, When protective laws are passed which everyone can see the sense of (i.e. actually work) then compliance will be high. On the other hand anyone watching a French or Italian roundabout (rare things) can witness that common sense is not effective everywhere. Was the Place d’Etoile sponsored by a car repair company?
You betray your own complacency. This country hasn’t been a great power since 1940. We’ve been a debtor, dependent nation ever since. Most people who could be forgiven for thinking otherwise realised this in 1956. It’s a particular self-absorbed delusion to think we were a great power up until 23/06/2016.
Ed West you have ignored the following;
Slavery was not common in AS Society compared to the Continent and St Wilfrid preached against it in Bristol in l about 1008 AD and there were few recorded in The Doomesday Book.
1100 Charter of Liberties reinstates the Laws Of Edward The Confessor which trace their lineage to Aethelbert of Kent in about 650 AD and removes many Norman Forestry Laws.
Magna carta and the various laws are largely about defining Liberties which combined with representation evolved over the 13th century culminating the Parliament of 1295. Magna Carta used tio be read out yearly in large towns.
The stories of a Robin Hood become common in the 13th to 14 th centuries and have been likened to a common man’s Arthur and his round table.
The archers of the Hundreds Year War were well aware they had a freedom unknown by French serfs. French serfs were not armed and trained. An archer could draw a 200lb bow 24 times in two minutes and fight the for a whole day; proof, Sluys, Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt plus others. This feat of arms would require a meat rich diet over a decade to build this strength . The French serfs would not have had the meat even if they were armed and allowed to train .Outlaw archers were pardoned if they fought for the king. One became a member of his bodyguard and was knighted( a Welsman Davy ?) before he died of his wounds. This meant his family became gentry.
AS tradition was based upon election of kings, discussion with the Witan and rule through consulation and consent. Edward 1 said ” That which affects all must be consulted by all” and from 1295, Parliament was consulted on taxation. English monarchs did not have absolute power.
English law is based upon one can do whatever one wants unless there is a law which forbids it. Roman law says one can only do what it allows. The English tradition is liberty under the Law or as Wilkes put it ” Beef and Liberty “. The ability to eat butchers meat everyday became an essential part of English Liberty. In Paris in 1789 the poor were starving for want of bread. The British navigators who dug the canals breakfasted on steak and beer.
Thumbs up.
Slavery was certainly not uncommon in Anglo-Saxon society. Roughly ten percent of the people of England in Domesday Book (1086) were slaves (servi).
Compared to the continent it was small and AS Society was geared to the freeman and the responsibilities it carried.
William wanted England because it was successful and wealthy. That wealth was because it was peaceful, well run and people were able to aquire and keep their wealth. If it had been poor, William would not have bothered.
He had a connection to Edward the Confessor by marriage and he would have had to march through France and across the Alps; Hannibal he was not.
So geography and blood made it practicle to invade England.
Let’s say England was only half as rich – would William have invaded England?
Why not, Harold Hardrada of Norway also thought it worth stealing.
Because other Norman thugs got there first. The Hauteville family led by the redoubtable Tancred for one.
Did it not also have a first rate tax raising system, thanks to earlier practice with ‘Danegeld’?
Kent was the first kingdom to develop Laws. The uniting of the AS Kingdoms starts with Alfred. ” Ddanegeld” I think is due to Ethelred the Unready.
Harold would have probably won Hastings if he had not been betrayed by his brother and had to fight the Battle of Stamford Bridge.
The dcomentary by Prof R Bartlett is very good.
The Battle of Hastings 1066 – The Normans – BBC Two – YouTube
Thanks. I seem to recall Bartlett, also did something on the “Normans in Ireland” or some-such which was very good.
A comment full of absurd cliches
Those barons and King John were (brace yourself) more French than English.
More Norman than French, really.
but not english
It could be that their concept of freedom came from their Viking ancestors?
Your right in part. Serfdom comes into AS Society as the state solidifies post Alfred. Serfdom did not exist under Danelaw and also in Kent.
Henry1 fights his brother Duke of Normandy at Tinchbrai in 1104 where he congratulates the AS on their fighting skills.What is interesting is how quickly the AS Norman divide breaks down. The BBC documentary on The Normans explains this very well. Being an island, The Normans marry AS women
I think the Anarchy from 1135 to 1155 breaks down divides, basically if one is good at fighting one is employed.
One can see a continuous increase in liberty and the use of AS Law/Customs from 1100 and the Charter of Liberties. Magna Carta was described at the times as an updated C of L.
By the time of Hastings the Normans/Norse had been living in the Lower Seine area for 5/6 generations.
Guzzling French wine, stuffing their faces with French cheese, worshipping a French God, copulating with French women on an industrial scale. They were essentially French. Their only remaining Norse characteristic was their homicidal violence.
We English invariably use to the term Norman because we find it absolutely impossible to admit that in the autumn of 1066, a bunch of French thugs thrashed us at Hastings and subsequently went on to conquer the rest of the place.
How they succeeded is another interesting story.
But we didn’t thrash the ‘Normans’ at Waterloo.
The Prussians…
It was a joint effort. A few days earlier Napoleon attempted to prevent the allies joining up by fighting on two fronts. On hearing the Prussians had been defeated at the Battle of Ligny with the lost of 20,000, Wellington’s troops who had held off Ney’s Army at Quatre Bras, fell back to Waterloo. Despite their lost, von Bulcher informed Wellington that they’ll be at Waterloo.
At 10.30 the Battle of Waterloo commenced (without the Prussians) with a bombardment from Napoleon’s larger army (who didn’t know the Prussians were still around). With a relatively inexperienced army, Wellington decided to fight defensively, until reinforcements arrived. They beat off a succession of French attacks until Prussians reinforcements finally arrive at 15.30.
Jeremy is spot on, without the Prussians, we would have lost.
In fact most of ‘our’ Army at Waterloo was the B team.
The A team was in the US having a great time sacking the Congress Building, torching the White House etc.
Sadly only 1 vote.
English also turned treason into the Glorious Revolution.
Yes indeed the last successful invasion of this country by a foreign potentate.
All the more embarrassing because he was a notorious ‘botty bandit’!
I think you somewhat undermine your point about the the Frenchness of the Normans.
If, as you put it, ‘their only remaining Norse characteristic was homicidal violence’, then the very thing they must have found most useful at Hastings was their Norseness.
Actually I think I was being too generous, everyone at Hastings seems to have been homicidally violent, some were just more ‘professional’.
The triumph of professionalism over passion so to speak.
You obviously feel passionately about this so could you please tell us/me what was so ‘Norman’ about the Normans in 1066 compared to the rest of the Franks/French?
To use today’s language, they had been completely assimilated into French/Frankish culture had they not?
Bring back,DISQUS.
The Normans arranged for the Norse to invade which led to Harold fighting The Battle of Stamford in N England which showed how close were connections.
Really? I don’t think Tostig and Hardrada needed much “arranging”
If the weather/wind had been different it would have been William who landed first. Which would have been interesting.
This ‘system’ of typing on a ‘postage stamp’ is awful!
Bring back DISQUS.
And would remain so in terms of culture, language, behaviour (eg chivalric), for at least another two centuries.
Magna Carta was described by the Archbishop of Canterbury, I think as an updated Charter of Liberties which re-introduced the Laws of Edward The Confessor. Watch Bartlet. Normans started describing themselves as English within a generation or two. The Anarchy broke down divisions.
Normans still look different to resy of France, they are fairer and have blue eyes. Normandy become a part of France in the mid 13th century.
I think a reason why merging took place is that Vikings, AS and Normans intermarried look very similar; consequently within three generations everyone looked the same. Many of the monks, those involved in minting coins and the City of London were AS.
Yes, there is a sense of liberty/proto-democracy that comes out of Germanic/Norse culture. We see that in Scandinavia, Holland, German city state etc. English branch is part of that tree.
A 200lb bow?! You’d need considerable strength and a lot of meat to fire that once let alone a dozen times a minute.
On The Mary Rose there were longbows with pull weights of 212 lb. By the age of 14 years one was expected to draw a 95 lb bow.
Sadly the long bow wasn’t much use at Formigny and Castillon when the French finally chucked us out, thus decisively winning the so called 100 years War.
We won. Building on the Model Parliament of 1295 where some some 270 plus MPs are elected , The hundred Years War forges a nations which lacks the class divided of feudal Europe. Yeoman such as Knollys become Knights banneret. Yeoman land owning archers become the middle class and back bone of the country. Serfdom ends. The national identity is forged as opposed to collection of land owning aristocrats which is France.
The lack of contempt and hatred between classes means the Peasants Revolt does not include the savage blood lust and cruelty of the Jaquerie Revolt in France.
Come off it !We were thrown out on our ear and lost everything we had in France bar Calais.
We may not have had the blood fest of the Jaquerie, but we made up for it with the so called Wars of the Roses, which whilst it spared the peasants, managed to kill off most of our feudal nobility. Hardly a win I would have said?
Bring back DISQUS.
We aquired vast amounts of loot, especailly from ransom.
So what?
We still LOST. You must be the only chap in England who denies this.
We lost the land and created degree of unification between classes not seen on the Continent. The absence of using mercenary armies, for infantry prevented much blood shed. The War of the Roses created a desire to remove the military power of the feudal aristocracy and their privileges whichj lasted in much of Europe up to Napoleon.
Sadly, your reply has come out as less than one word per line!
This system is hopeless!!!
However, at last you have acknowledged that we LOST the ‘100 years War’ hook, line, and sinker.
The rest of your reply, whist not without interest is irrelevant. Thank you.
ps: So I see has mine!
Vale UnHerd.
Don’t be ludicrous.
Your comment reminds of an English comedian joke about Agincourt anniversary in 2015.
English bang on about Agincourt but they seem to forget that we lost the 100 year war. Sure we lost half of France – but it is OK. We got Wales.
In 2021 France is as rich as UK, with better weather food and wine. They got Provence and Bordeaux and you got Wales…Need I say more?
.What an astonishing reply by Mr Hedges!
He must have been reading too much Arthur Bryant.
Then to veer off piste to bring up the Jaquerie, etc, what nonsense.
Anyway well done for chastising him.
I will take Wales; the long bow, The Tudors, anthracite, singing, the speaking of the English Language ( R Burton )and the Rugby playing Chapel attending, scholarship respecting people who made sure left wing politics did not include cruel class war.
What has made British Tradition different is that we have able to develop with less cruelty and slaughter than other countries, hence I compared the Jaqueries Revolt and the Peasants Revolt-read Jean Froissart. . Knollys was able to ask for mercy. Also look at the Peasants Revolt in Germany of the 1520s. The conflict between the Left and Right in France in the 1930s prevented a united front against the Nazis being created.It used to be said that The Labour Party owed more to Methodism than Marx.
Do you think it was the meagre diet of the French peasant that prompted them to start eating Frogs and Snails?
No doubt the same could be asked of the Chinese peasantry and the consumption of Bats,Dogs, Bumble Bees and last but not least, delicious Pangolin.
Britain has an ideal climate for growing grass which means we produce a lot of meat. The meat and wheat we produce may have been a reason why Caesar invaded; we became the food supply for the Northern part of the Roman Empire.
May I ask what are your sources for saying that we “became the food supply for the Northern part of the Roman Empire”
And we talking grain or meat or both?
Strabo was certainly not of that opinion when advising Octavian.
Bring back DISQUS.
Northern France – similar weather.
Which is why Normandy produced the grass which could feed a horse to support an armoured knight. A major advantage the Vikings/Norman has was that they were larger and stronger than any other race. The Byzantines used Vikings as guards and they were amazed at the size of Norman knights.In a fight a god big un will beat a good little un which is why there are weight categories in boxing/martial, arts.The Romans overcame the fact they were smaller than the Celts by exceptional training and discipline.
I don’t think so. You can compare the food sophistication of Southern Italy with Greece (same geography).
Or Japan with Korea. Plenty of fish in UK but no one thought of doing sashimi.
The French have been more influenced by Italians and the med culture when it comes to food. Escargot is a Provencal specialty.
Norse/German (English are part of the tribe) people are brilliant – but their food is just terrible.
Ivanhoe/Scott has a passage (the dinner where Normans offend the Saxons at the tournament) how Normans always were able to control themselves around food/drink while Saxon could not.
Thanks it was only ‘tongue in cheek’, that also allowed me to take another swipe at the Chinese!
As for ‘the demon drink’, you are perfectly correct, and off course, it still is a bit of problem judging by what used to go on when the Brits hit southern Spain, Cyprus etc.
We love freedom. We have to have the right to talk about things for a couple of hours, each with a different opinion. Then we go down the pub (pre and post Covid) and talk for a while longer. We are happy as long as a government doesn’t actually come to a decision and then they are telling us what to do, thereby removing our freedom.
Governments are supposed to listen. First they should listen to me because I’m right but don’t listen to anyone else because they’re wrong. I was right about the 3rd runway at Heathrow. But now I’ve changed my mind so I’m right again.
In this country we will never do anything again, whoever is in power as a government – because every decision takes years of listening to every minority view.
No industry. The first to cripple ourselves by going to electric cars. Back to freezing cold in the winter because we’ve shut off the gas. The 23-year old Trans mayor of the city of Bangor, representing the city across the world. Children taught that they are evil because they are white. The vote at 16 and then, probably, 14. Old people disenfranchised because they don’t believe in the latest fashion. Everyone unionised and well-paid or else not unionised and on benefits.
I’m going to create a new union: Union of People Out of Key Employment – U POKE.
Thumbs up.
My father(RIP), a WWII combat veteran, was the charter member of POOM-Pissed Off Old Men.
….I’m coming round to Wolfie Smith’s way of thinking…… “Power to the PeoPLE!!!”
The ‘arguments’ in this whole article are based on government sponsored ‘surveys’ which gives the result they wish to promote..
“The average Brit would happily have a microchip in his arm if it meant he could go down the pub” ? Utter, utter bullshit.
Thumbs up.
You would hardly call the social compliance and control exercise currently running, enforced by a willing and compliant media and various so called “experts” being rolled out on a daily basis for the last 12-months, being “quietly put to bed”.
A significant factor is that thus far everyone has been very quiet about how this is going to land. Many people happy to go along with the first lockdown; staying at home on 80% salary when the weather is nice. When a large percentage of those furloughed (but not just them) find themselves unemployed as the furlough scheme end, buyer’s remorse will be order of the day
The vast majority of people observe the current measures for a number of reasons, the most telling of which is that far from being a nation of selfish individuals, people will accept the restrictions as the necessary means by which this virus is eventually be overcome. We’ve seen that Covid is deadly, and we’ll will observe the restrictions placed on our lives because we don’t actually believe the government wants to either enslave or kill us. We will most certainly curse, b***h, moan and revile them because that’s what we do and long may it continue. We’re not ready just yet to man the barricades and riot on the streets.
I disagree with the notion that this will continue indefinitely however. With the arrival of the vaccine comes the prospect of ending lockdown and everyone including the government knows this. To suggest that somehow the English (British) have surrendered their freedoms without a fight is to miss the point entirely. We’ve shown a continuity that reflects our concern for our fellow citizens, and the reported breaches are the exception rather than the everyday experience.
Throughout the Brexit saga the great and the good continually berated the populace that such a course of action was the road to perdition. When the time came, the same populace ignored the advice of their betters and voted accordingly. At present we’re compliant because we believe it’s essential, however as soon as it’s not, we won’t comply.
The English (British) have shown a spirit of communal responsibility which had long been supposed to be extinct. The doomsayers are wrong, our spirit is strong still, and we shan’t give it up for a pint, even though we’d love one. We’re doing it so we can have that pint (and some pork scratchings) another day.
Once you have given up rights willingly for a cause you have accepted the principle that it can be done. So two questions. Is there a line you wouldn’t cross to address covid? What other causes are acceptable to give up all legal social and economic rights?
Thumbs up.
The difference is that we have suspended our rights as opposed to giving them up entirely. You are right when you say that having accepted the principle of surrendering you have let ‘them’ get away with it. You’re also correct ( if I perceive your opening sentence correctly) to be justifiably wary of such surrender.
Your two questions are admittedly more difficult to answer. Regarding a line I wouldn’t cross to address covid, it would be a willingness to sacrifice others, especially the elderly, to facilitate a return to pre covid society.
As for other causes which would require the suspension of all I hold dear? That is almost impossible to answer as it would be wholly dependent on what those causes were. Had you asked me that same question 18 months ago, I’d have doubtless shouted NO! as such a situation as that in which we find ourselves today was unknown and I confess almost unthinkable to me. But to answer the question, it would have to be circumstances in which, where a temporary suspension not enacted, there would be a permanent removal of all those rights.
I suspect we don’t differ that much on this issue. It is imperative that the rights we enjoy, and which were so hard won by our forebears, are not squandered for a ‘mess of pottage’ and we must be diligent to ensure that they are not. I know that comparisons made with the 2nd world war are somewhat hackneyed, and talk of a spirit of the blitz overdone, but the fact was that as a nation we did endure a suspension of many of our rights in order to defeat a far more pressing issue and definitive enemy. This time were fighting a virus, not an ideology, however the analogy stands up.
That’s not to say that I don’t have concerns, the exact opposite is the case. That so much of the covid legislation was passed into law without scrutiny and proper parliamentary assent is an anathema to me. That breaches are dealt with by way of a fixed penalty notice is worse, as it removes the possibility of having your case heard and judged in a court. Instead all you have is an appeals procedure.
“… a line I wouldn’t cross to address covid, it would be a willingness to sacrifice others, especially the elderly, to facilitate a return to pre covid society.” In another article on unherd today is “…the worst years for flu deaths were 1976 and 1999, when more than 60,000 people in England and Wales died from influenza or pneumonia. The best year in the last century was 1948, with under 20,000 deaths. That leaves a range of 20,000-60,000 deaths per year”. Is the ‘sacrifice’ an absolute (the end-point is zero-covid), or relative? If absolute, how can that ever be achieved? If relative, what level of infections would you accept?
I fear we’ve rather gone off at a tangent as the article concerned the notion that the English have given up their freedom, but such is the nature of these discussions. In a nutshell, we as a nation should do as much as possible to keep people alive. When we start to determine what number is acceptable, we lose sight of the fact that those dying are our friends, family, neighbours etc. To simply view people as numbers is the outlook of those gilded globalists who actually run things, the people who see only a balance sheet.
However to try and answer your questions, your asking me to give a specific level of infection would I accept? The answer is, I don’t know. Thankfully I am not in the position whereby I have to make that decision. So let me ask you the same question, what are your acceptable losses?
I’m not being flippant, I truly don’t know how we make a decision on lives or where we draw the line.
You do not suspend a right. Once a right has been suspended it is only ever enjoyed again as a privilege.
Covid isn’t very deadly, bad flu season, not much more. Not worth destroying the economy, ruining our children’s lives, abandoning thousands of cancer patients and others with treatable conditions and potentially many years of happy lives ahead of them, to TRY to avoid the effects of, but ultimately fail. Add to that the complete loss of freedom and the rise of global totalitarian control, and the dangers of Covid are minimal in comparison.
“Covid isn’t very deadly, bad flu season, not much more. “
Yeah, that’s why both Boris and Trump were in hospital and it was touch and go with Boris. It’s just flu. Really? And despite lockdowns, 120,000 have died within 28 days of a positive test result. That means that without the extra restrictions, the hospitals’ oxygen systems would have collapsed as they were besieged with people suffocating to death (so where would cancer patients be then?) and we could have had 250,000-500,000 dead.
“the complete loss of freedom and the rise of global totalitarian control”
Drivel. Council elections in May. General election in 2024. Newspapers printing a range of views including the harmfully ignorant, as usual. Unherd offering free comment. Buy stuff online because the shops are shut. Totalitarian? As big a fantasy as “Covid isn’t very deadly”.
120,000 departed souls have had Covid ascribed as their cause of death. There is no way this could have been 100% the case, from the extreme joke about being run over by a bus and the death recorded as due to Covid to the more serious reality that death could have been due to cancer or other serious medical conditions.
Quite why in the UK we are using Covid as the default cause of death is beyond me; whatever the reason, it makes Britain look worse than it is – hence all the derision and opprobrium from other countries, almost all of which use different methodologies to record deaths. Comparisons are odious, as Dr Johnson once said; put another way, comparing death counts is utterly meaningless.
As for testing positive based on an unreliable PCR test (whose inventor stated its use for viral detection was not what it was intended for), run at levels of CT above what even the WHO recommends (and which PHE won’t admit / publicise) which will therefore detect virtually everything?
We have a testing system that generates an inaccurately high number of cases and a death recording methodology based on this test which assumes Covid.
Beyond comprehension.
Oh, what was you first clue? Was it fining people for saying things others find offensive, the millions of CCTV cameras throughout London, or the pocket knife surrender bins? Face it. You have been living in the new kindler, gentler, more incompetent police state for a while now.
Thumbs up.
An interesting article, some of which I tend to agree with, some not.
But to address just one aspect, I do not think it consistently compares like with like.
The English are very resistant to bullying. That is, the deliberate attempt of a person or institution or foreign country to get its way by threats, force, oppression, or misuse of power. Think of the English reaction to the burning of religious dissenters or to the despotism of Charles I. Think Armada, Bonaparte, Kaiser, Hitler (hey, maybe even EU).
But Covid-19 is not a reasoning entity that will reconsider its plans in the face of defiance, or back off when it realises that a population loves freedom. It’s a virus.
We are not being bullied by the virus, we are being bullied by the Government, using the virus as an pretext.
I do understand that point.
But can you help me to understand this, please: a pretext for what?
In other words, what hidden purpose is the government trying to achieve?
Yes I always get frustrated by the ‘they are doing x to fulfil x evil agenda against us’ – I often think why? What is the benefit of doing that? I wonder what politician would make these decisions knowing they might well be HATED by the voting public. With that in mind I have watched the positiv, ebullient Brexit-focussed Tories get blindsided by coronavirus and done their best to navigate a treacherous, no-win, high stakes path with some mistakes and some successes along the way. Last summer I really thought Matty Hancock was heading for a nervous breakdown. One thing for sure I would NOT have wanted to be in their shoes for a second so I personally am very supportive of the government and not too quick to jump to torches and pitchforks.
To ‘protect’ us from ourselves, or as we used to say:
“Nanny knows best”.
Danegeld?
I’m afraid I don’t understand your comment.
Danegeld is what the fearful pay to bullies in the hope that the bullies will go away.
If we are ‘being bullied by the Government’ (per Nick Faulks’s comment) how does that work in terms of ‘Danegeld’ – are we paying the Government to go away?
You wrote that English are resistant to bullying and that you went on (pointless) historical references (armada, Napoleon, Kaiser, Hitler, and of course EU) …yet somehow you missed the Danegeld.
If Armada would have landed half (most) of England (the catholics) would have sided with the Spaniards.
And Normans – a minority – were quite capable of bullying the English (book of doom?)
What actually gained support for William was that he agreed to rule under the Laws of Edward the Confessor. I think it was the coronation.
Some of the Catholics. What united many people was the fear of The Inquisition.
Who knows England who only knows England? One needs to compare with other countries.
The reason so many people are still so terrified and so compliant is because they were purposely terrified in the beginning, in order to gain that compliance more easily…add in the busybody aspect…(I’m doing this and so you should as well) and you have the high number of those in support of this nonsense….and so many who grudgingly comply in order to avoid confrontations and rows in public….
Thumbs up.
I was about to suggest the use of smiling face icons as alternative to your excellent system of ‘thumbs up’, only to find that for some reason icons are unacceptable!
May I therefore use your system with the slight variation of putting it in a phonetic code,eg: Tango Uniform?
We really needed your analysis last March, not now with the gift of hindsight. You should have told us then not to be afraid.
Chris, one of the great things about Disqus is that was/is a permanent record of all that has been written.
Thus ten months ago you will find there were plenty of Lockdown Sceptics or Heretics on UnHerd.
Fraser Bailey Esq was quick off the mark,as I recall with the perfectly wonderful word “Scamdemic”.
Additionally it was also about the same time that Lord Jonathan Sumption annunciated the view that the whole thing ( please excuse my French) was utter boll**ks.
I was and am a lockdown sceptic. I said last March to everybody who spoke to me that those people who felt in danger should be protected by society and the rest should get on with life. My daughter was the first to tell me to shut up – she is a teacher and “felt particularly vulnerable”. My wife almost refused to talk to me so I kept on saying it, over and over again.
All around me people started making faces. How could I say that? I suppose there were plenty like me at the time but a much greater number have come out of the woodwork more recently.
You are of course right and I take the point.
Yes I to noticed that interesting phenomena at the start of the ‘Great Panic’ back in March.
It was the young, females of the species who were the most vociferous
cries of “Covid Denier” ricocheted around Quislington. A friend of who has three red haired grand daughters found that almost overnight they were transformed into Corona Valkyries.
All very depressing as you say.
I tried I really did.
Members of the ‘British public’ recognise that without the threat of imprisonment, the affluent jet-setters flying (back) into the country won’t take a blind bit of notice to the rules when they only need to bribe the state (pay fines) to do so. This doesn’t mean they don’t want a free England; they just don’t want it to be free only for the rich.
“…they just don’t want it to be free only for the rich”. Free for the rich and constellation of “victim” classes…
Strange how many of the victim classes can afford to do so many things that other people can’t (e.g. travelling “home” periodically to see relatives in the countries they were supposedly fleeing from). I have no problem with them doing those things, but I object to the fact that they get away with everything that others can’t, and that the taxpayer usually foots their bills.
If people’s salaries weren’t being paid via furlough or zoom from home, then you would see a riot. The government are deceitful and silent on what this will cost us all in the end.
Most people only react when they feel it in their pocket.
Would you have preferred poverty and riots?
A really good, if rather depressing essay.
It wasn’t a million years ago that a good many here in the UK and particularly France were up in arms about the wearing of burkas etc and the various, often conflicting, human and civil rights and potential safety issues these face coverings threw up both in terms of the wearer and its perception by society at large.
Roll on coronavirus and ain’t it funny how some people’s minds and apparently unshakeable principles can turn on a sixpence?
Yes, the level of compliance and snitching is quite chilling. As I said a couple of weeks ago, the Nazis would have had no problems had they invaded and occupied the country.
Morning, Fraser. Would you say the snitching on neighbours is chilling, or perhaps just an expression of people’s need for fairness? After all, isn’t it infuriating if you’re being good, complying with rules and gritting your teeth through the loss of freedom – but your neighbour is carrying on regardless?
You have a good point there. I think it swings both ways; there are indeed those sticking to the rules whose neighbours organise raves, and as such are fully justified in feeling the unfairness and informing on them.
There is however a large contingent of people whose snitching is not grounded in a need for fairness, but in a complete lack of empathy for others, and a petty desire to feel superior; the rules don’t tend to bother them personally, and they haven’t thought through whether such restrictions as have been imposed might be disproportionate or counter-productive – they are the people who reported that TV personality for visiting her distressed parents.
This is why I like UnHerd; you get to think through both sides, and nuance is recognised.
Yes-“curtain twitchers” as some one previously has said.
Thumbs up.
Snitches in my opinion are rarely spotless followers of all rules and dissemble their own peccadillos as necessary. Also There is nothing good about being “fair” ie complying with the rules. If the rules are bad, say racist, then complying with those or dobbing others in is also bad. In this case you agree with the restrictions so you think it’s ok. We need to think beyond that and ask if the principles are right.
Put it better than I did
Katharine, it’s a similar thing to what happened over Dominic Cummings’s Northumberland journey (the Barnard Castle dit was ill-advised as that just got peoples backs-up and he should have kept his mouth shut about that and not given the Press & his detractors any ammunition).
Cummings CORRECTLY interpreted the official guidance (note: ‘guidance’, not Law). What annoyed people was their own realisation that they could also have done what Cummings did, if they’d needed to, but didn’t, because the Government doom-mongering had them ****-scared of their own shadows.
In reality, they were annoyed with themselves for having been cajoled (perhaps ‘duped’ is a better word?) into complying with an unreasonable request that had no basis in law. They were blame-shifting their self-disappointment onto Cummings to make themselves feel better! That’s what the curtain-twitchers are doing now.
(Any slight faltering in Cummings’s voice during his forced <Bozo will have had a word with him….> press statement was – I’m sure – borne out of the fact that he desperately wanted to tell the press pack to go forth and multiply, but wasn’t allowed).
I’ve experienced this same thing to a lesser degree in Supermarkets and shops – disapproving [sometimes angry] looks and words whispered to either themselves or their partner – “that chap’s not wearing a mask <gasp!> !!”.
Why? Because they haven’t actually been to the Government website and seen for themselves first hand that the ‘legislation’ is – effectively – merely advice… a suggestion. Anybody can claim an exemption without any requirement to justify or prove the claim (something that blows a big logic-hole through the reasoning behind the ‘requirement’ to wear a face covering). Most of my social circle (barring [..or perhaps I should say baaaa’ing..] the compliant sheep) do this as a means of protest at the huge restrictions on our civil liberties. It is one of the few things this authoratative, manipulative, dictatorial ‘government’ allow me to do now, so I am bl00dy well going to take advantage of that!
In addition to the pages on exemptions (which incidentally, they provide downloadable templates for people to print if they wish to display some kind of sign or indicator that they are exempt, …and even those are merely advisory) there is a Cabinet Office document aimed at shops and businesses, which states that it is sufficient for a person to merely say the words “I am exempt” or “I am unable”. Shop staff are advised that they MUST accept the person’s word and that they must NOT ask for any proof. But most people don’t know that.
A lot of remainders kicked up a fuss about it because they wanted revenge for us getting away from the corrupt, anti-democratic, imperialist eu and thought he was the main person responsible for the Leave vote (when, in fact it was more down to N Farage). They hoped that by clamouring for him to go they could get a BRINO.
That is exactly what it was. The knives were out for Cummings long before Covid. They just took their opportunity. Also I read that Cummings played a significant role in the procurement of the vaccine.
LOL
Cummings was smart enough to know exactly what he was doing – but…OK..let’s go with your “reasoning”
Yes, I agree, he was smart enough to know what he was doing. And that’s what has annoyed the masses who just did TF as they were told without either questioning it or researching the sense and logic behind the diktats.
Because If he’d incorrectly interpreted, and had committed an offence then he would have been made an example-of.
Was he arrested? No.
Was he charged? No.
Was he fined? No.
That is one psychological interpretation.
The other one would be that Mr Cummings was perceived to be part of the government propaganda mchine and therefore had an obligation to both talk the talk and walk the walk.
Optics. Optics. Because people with 2 eyes tend to judge things by what they see, not by what they hear or read (requires more cognitive effort).
What about the opposite point of view. Suppose I am dismayed by my neighbours passively going along with the covid restrictions. Suppose I see there conduct as collaboration, as a threat to my liberty. What action should I take?
I have to disagree. In 1940 we were a very different people.
Eighty years of pernicious, Marxist inspired,State Education have destroyed this country as we knew it.
All that remains is the hollowed out husk of our once “green and pleasant land”.
I am looking forward eagerly to my long overdue appointment with the Reaper.
Consummatum est!
Hi George. Obviously you want to go straight to Reaper, do not pass Go, do not collect £200, do not go through n***y stage.
My apologies. Last night I was conducting an experiment with a new Mediterranean Gin, a left over from the ‘Christmas that never happened’. (My Chief of Operations was otherwise engaged).
I should have known better, but it was certainly an elixir I was not expecting. The result was that on rising at dawn, I have never felt so depressed since we were kicked out of Suez.
Fortunately, a short time later I heard Nick Robinson on Radio 4 make a wonderful Freudian slip when he said the “Chinese are exporting the VIRUS”; Oh what nectar! He quickly backtracked, but the damage was done, and my spirits restored.
As the Ancients would say: “Usque ad mortem bibendum”. (We must drink until death). I must be more careful.
No reason to apologise but I had noticed that you were not yourself this morning. Personally, I don’t drink gin but my CO does and it makes the following mornings very peaceful.
Thanks! I shall your advice and return to the ‘Red Infuriator’.
Thumbs up with pleasure
No. no … you should just keep drinking George, or at the very least sample more types (a better class) of gin and report back to us. Life is too short to hold back on important research like this.
I agree there is no time to waste, but when I saw ‘Mediterranean’on the bottle I immediately thought of the great Gin Distillery the Royal Navy had so generously left behind in Port Mahon.
It was a stupid mistake, but, at your prompting,
‘Research’ will continue, rest assured.
,
It should soon be possible to emigrate.
POOM indeed-hang on fellow.
Non illegitimi carborundum mate.
Yes-thumbs up.
Fraser, I almost invariably find your posts apt and interesting.
But, on this one … the subject-matter of compliance and snitching (public health) and above all the consequences (a visit from the police, perhaps a fine) …
I mean to say, is the mention of the Nazis really apposite?
Might I suggest the NKVD as an alternative?
Or even ‘STASI’ and GEheime STAats POlizei.
We’re not far away from those now.
Closer every day…thumbs up.
From on online encyclopaedia:
‘The NKVD undertook mass extrajudicial executions of untold numbers of citizens, and conceived, populated and administered the Gulag system of forced labour camps. Their agents were responsible for the repression of the wealthier peasantry, as well as the mass deportations of entire nationalities to uninhabited regions of the country.‘
Unless you are claiming that the above is happening here, then I think maybe it would be wiser for you not to suggest it.
What does your ‘source’ say about the Gestapo?
It appears others on this forum think it is perhaps more apposite, although I can see little difference.
Either way we are slowly but surely moving towards a most unpleasant authoritarian state, policed by overweight blobs, with distinct, although as yet embryonic NKVD tendencies. viz Derbyshire Constabulary and others.
Once ‘trust’ in the Police is lost, it can never be regained.
Incidentally where is your case for the preposterous notion of more “Norman than French”?
Given your name, it maybe interesting.
Presumably, on your logic, in 1940 the “level of compliance” in people obeying the blackout to avoid showing lights to enemy aircraft, working where they were directed to, obeying food rationing, allowing themselves to be conscripted, and so on, was also “quite chilling”.
In reality, those things were necessary to win. Just as following scientific advice (not “make it up yourself”) is necessary to win against the virus. Sorry if that goes against the maverick consensus here.
You should never apologise in a forum like this – no-one else does…freedom of speech etc.
They found a very compliant population in the Channel Is, (1940-45), who even “shopped” the few Jews in the islands.
People who live in multi ethnic cities have high levels of distrust. They yearn for authority because they are not sufficiently confident their fellow men can be trusted to love them as themselves. In rural areas the ethnically uniform population live their lives privately according to their own consciences and trusting their neighbours to turn a blind eye to anything verboten, unless it transgresses too much the unspoken code. Of course we all pretend to go along with the rules and believe them to be necessary for the non Anglo Saxons, including the rule obsessed ‘Celts’. But that doesn’t mean we think they are necessary for us.
People who live in multi-ethnic cities have high levels of trust in their fellow citizens because they share so much geographical and social space. They understand that adherence to some shared codes of behaviour is necessary to survival and happiness.
Subjective, I know.
Perhaps you are right, Mark; and I think that may be true if the population in question has a high degree of confidence in the fairness and efficiency of its institutions.
But I have to say that where I have come across literature on the subject, it finds that trust is higher in homogeneous societies, where there is a greater willingness to share (in terms, for example, of higher taxation and more generous welfare regimes). In short, people are more trustful of and generous to ‘people like us’.
If that were true why is there so much crime, why does everyone have bars on the windows, why does no-one talk on the Tube and why did we have riots last summer basically saying ‘f— this country’ and ‘f— the police’ we want special treatment?
Not only that but lockdown is popular as a policy. Wildly popular, you might say.
it’s popular among people whose livelihoods have not been impacted, like politicians and certain media folks. I imagine it’s less so for those business owners arbitrarily forced to shut down, for their employees, for the various enterprises that depend on the daily foot traffic that has dramatically slowed. History is going to take a very unkind view of lockdowns; the economic harm they have caused and continue to cause will manifest itself in harm to health. Because this always happens.
Popular also for people who are just frightened.
No it will not. As long as govs. throw money at the people it will be seen as the least bad option.
As interesting as the article is, and the comments too, they all miss one thing. Christianity. The widespread rejection of Christianity in society means that life is all there is, there is nothing beyond this life, no future state that puts right present wrongs. It gives courage to people to fight for freedom they may never live to see because they know there is something worth more than life itself in this world.
Hence the desire to snitch, wear masks, hide away, all done with a desperate desire to cling on to this life regardless of whether these actions are proportionate or even useful. Who cares about the poverty generated because so many businesses will fail, in part due to the punitive taxation that is around the corner, or that many will die from treatable diseases due to the NHS fixation on COVID? As long as we feel we can control the day of our death by taking precautions that are as useful as a druid spraying us with woad, we are content.
“….many will die from treatable diseases due to the NHS fixation on COVID”
You are a doctor.
Your hospital is besieged with people who are suffocating from Covid, because self-styled “libertarians” / “Covid sceptics” etc undermined lockdowns, social distancing, mask wearing, etc, There is a mile-long traffic jam of people trying to drive into the hospital – exacerbated by the cars in which Grandad has actually suffocated to death while waiting and Mum is trying to turn the car round to go home. Other patients are on foot, gasping as they are propped up by their (grand)children. But the hospital’s oxygen system has tripped out because of the gigantic demand for it, and there are no free beds anywhere.
What do you do? Say “I will run as many investigatory cell-sampling operations on suspicious breast lumps, or angioplasties on people with chest pain when they walk fast, as I did on this day in 2019, and if more people die from Covid, then so be it”?
Or perhaps you might say “every time we have a lockdown, the number of new Covid cases drops within a week or two, the number of patients coming into hospital drops 1-2 weeks after that, and the flow of seriously ill patients into Intensive Care drops 1 week after that, and then we have more capacity for cancer and heart operations….. so the way to help heart and cancer patients is to have a lockdown”?
My closest relative is having a cancer operation in May. I hope that it is not made impossible by “libertarians” because she may die if they do.
Where do they sell woad? Can you get it on Amazon?
“The average Englishman would happily have a microchip in his arm if it meant he could go down the pub.” What a terrible choice to have to make! But I find the idea of an implanted microchip so repugnant I would even be prepared to forgo the pub (which in normal times I visit on a daily basis).
An interesting polemic but not sure about it’s accuracy. While I have been surprised by the number of incidents of snitching on neighbours reported in the media, these are still numerically very small. As for the “polls”, one should not place much reliance on them. None of them are based on random samples and none of them place a respondent in the position of really having to think about the implications of their response. I have severe doubts about their statistically reliability.
I have recently taken part in an Imperial College/Ipsos Mori/NHS survey which required one to self test for antibodies. It was a two stage survey, initially randomised, and I know that a significant number of people will drop out at both stages, and a biased sample will result. I asked how the results would be corrected for this non-response, but answer had I none. I have always had my doubts about the capacity of some people at Imperial College and I have reached the stage where I don’t believe anything that emanates from it. Let us not forget that Covid analysis and forecasting is now a big industry and there are juicy and numerous government contracts to be had. There has been a golden lining to the Covid cloud for many academic institutions.
What has disheartened me is the way the Government, led by innumerate people like Johnson & Hancock, have blindly followed whatever advice their bureaucrats have fed them, and the police have embraced their role of suppressers of civil liberties. When we have freedom of movement back again, our relationship with these two arms of authority will have changed forever. I do see a more violent and fractured society going forward. Thank God most of my life will have been lived in saner and more sensible times
Well if it is a proper study they will report their drop out rate. If the drop out rate is too large they will either not publish at all or just publish a pre-print.
If they do publish and don’t mention the drop out rate you can recycle the paper without reading any further and your confirmation bias re all output from Imperial will be confirmed. Hooray !
I respectfully suggest this article misses the point .
The English (indeed the UK) are not complaining (much) about the new rules in a pandemic because we have given the Govt our approval to do it. And we know we can vote them out if they start doing things we don’t approve of.
Freedom is freedom to decide who runs the country for us. Unlike the EU where a voter has no vote about who runs the EU Commission that is so spectacularly failing them.
The EU Commission is so far removed from the people they might as well be on Pluto.
This article clearly doesn’t take into account that the claimed opinion polls results on political issues nowadays are simply made-up.
They are a propaganda tool – with the wholly fictional numbers cited in ‘opinion polls’ being used to make people think that if they oppose (for example) the lockdowns, or the ‘vaccines’, they are in a small minority.
All dictatorships throughout history insist that anyone opposing their agenda are members of a ‘hopelessly small minority’.
“the claimed opinion polls results on political issues nowadays are simply made-up”
Absurd. Where is the evidence for these assertions?
We have surrendered our freedoms such as free speech with barely a whimper. I no longer recognise the country I was born into nor the people I meet. When you live in a small village where BLM banners are hung off the Norman church you know you are really in trouble as a nation.
I don’t agree that we look for fairness we swapped that twenty years ago for tolerance, which was swallowed hook line and sinker. Tolerance had led us down a path of unremitting mass immigration, gender identity wars, cultural wars and the unpicking of what it used to mean being British and English.
Our history is being rewritten before our eyes, hate laws used to smother dissent and our culture so diluted that our quirky sense of humour virtually driven underground.
The English no longer exist as a nation or ethnicity and patriotism has been badly dented. Who would ever think they would see the utter humiliation of the England rugby team with their knee bending supplication.
In our media and adverts we have become the minority now and this will continue to mock us for the foreseeable future.
We are at a crossroads as an ethnicity where half of us appears to want to surrender everything to the left groupthink and the brainwashing of our children by academia that is almost completely left wing and anti English.
The rest of us retain some hope that through Brexit we may find our voice, spirit and pride again. But don’t bet on it.
Well said, and as you must be aware there are still millions who think the same.
Hopefully the impending chaos that will undoubtedly be caused by this great Scamdemic may prove the catalyst for a return to the happy days of Enid Blyton and Merry England, the days when you could call “a spade a spade” with fear or embarrassment.
I mistrust polls where there is a choice between a socially acceptable alternative, and one that is not.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
― Benjamin Franklin
There is an uplifting article in todays Times about a Springer Spaniel called Max, who has just been awarded the dog OBE.(PDSA).
All is not lost!
Maybe, but I read only the other day about an injured dog found with his microchip crudely cut out (thieves then realised he was elderly and dumped him). Oh, sorry, this was meant as a reply to Phil Bolton’s comment about chips. I can’t work out how to delete!
You have to get into EDIT by some miracle, then delete the text. Previously (under Disqus) you then had to leave two characters, (full stops would do), as blank text were unacceptable.
One of the great virtues of the English – love of dogs.
Others, the Germans for example have a much better track record than us on breeding them, as the Crufts scandal of about ten years ago showed.
‘We’ tolerate all sorts of gross inbreeding with catastrophic results, but to the eternal credit of the much reviled BBC they exposed the whole revolting business.
We are far too sentimental, and need to ‘crucify’ those involved in this breeding atrocity, no ifs or buts about it!
The obsession with “Freedom” at all costs is a North American phenomenon. Though the freedom Americans have is much more of a facade than it is a fact. The British are far more reality-based in their approach. Americans consider living under a government controlled by a corporate elite and spied on by the NSA and a significant number killed each year by their police forces as “freedom”. The freedom being talked of in the USA is an illusion. Citizens are “free” to select the deceiving mass media of their choice, to pick between two equally deceiving and elitist political parties and free to protest regime change wars where their views will be blithely ignored. The Brits correctly perceive this U.S. freedom as thinly disguised irresponsibility given a sheen of breast-beating jingoism and redneck idiocy. They have a far more common sense approach and are not apt to dive into ridiculous fantasies as their American cousins do so easily. Maybe it’s the weather, perhaps it’s just a no-nonsense approach to life or an inborn cynicism that makes Brits more awake to reality rather than sheep mesmerized by a national ethos endlessly confusing its population with mindless trivia and the shallowest of cultural drivel.
comrade anti-American stooge has made his appearance
Good points.
There was a discussion on libertarianism on Unherd a few weeks ago, dominated by American contributors for whom saying “I’m a libertarian” is apparently a debate-winning trick whereas putting their prejudices in more down-to-earth form would be embarrassing.
After virtue-signalling that, for example, they couldn’t stand the wicked socialistic British NHS and were happy with the US healthcare system because “I’m a libertarian” (one lady said that she had had a major and very expensive operation within a week of her deciding she wanted it, and that if other people “chose” not to have that level of medical insurance then that was their “choice”), the issue of George Floyd dying with a cop kneeling on his neck for eight minutes came up.
It emerged that most of these “libertarians“, dedicated to human freedom (as they tell it), had no problem with state agents executing people in the street. Black people in urban environments, naturally, not themselves. But paying taxes was still a fundamental assault on human freedom.
As you say, this particular idiocy is less of a problem in the UK.
Well that clearly is an objective and balanced view
Mr Tierney, it is 10 days since I kindly asked for an explanation of “The Great Leap Forward” & the “Cultural Revolution”.
You are obviously lost for words.
May I suggest you change your nome de plume, as you are far too well known now as an obvious Chinese Communist stooge!
Americans consider living under a government controlled by a corporate elite and spied on by the NSA and a significant number killed each year by their police forces as “freedom”.
Actually, I don’t think they like it at all. Why do you think the prepper movement has become so widespread? Why do you think people voted for non-Washington DC politician Donald J Trump? And why do you think those same people are now considered persona non grata? And on the cop front, how many people want armed criminals running around with impunity? The number of unarmed people killed by cops for no good reason is still, even in a gun-mad country like the USA, vanishingly small. The rest you could say lived by the sword and died by the sword.
Being over 65 now, I asked for the installation of a DAB chip when I had my Covid vaccination as reception on the AM band is now very problematic.
That’s the spirit – take the p!ss out of the situation!
I recall something that someone from an EU country said about the UK’s departure from the EU, something about British pragmatism will be sorely missed.
I think it is more a matter of British pragmatism that leads to recognition and acceptance of the need for lockdowns etc, and some considerable frustration with the Governments slowness to respond and it’s repeated failures to deal with things which are obvious to the ‘common man and woman ( finally, after the best part of a year, the Government is sowing something effective about international travel)
I think Johnson’s comments about freedom loving people (which I remember well) were little more than another or many examples of how, basically, he doesn’t think about things and in many ways, might live in a sort of fantasy world in which as he sees it, we are freedom loving , we fought for our freedom from the EU, around the world we represent freedom from tyranny. He loves the grand sweeping statement, he can’t help himself and comes up with such statements as ‘world leading (test and trace) freedom loving , irreversible lifting of restrictions ( how can they be irreversible) etc even though the slightest bit of critical thinking and reflection would make him realise that , while such grand statement might be brilliant in the debating circle , with echoes back to Churchill , they are no use in actually running the country.
What a depressing read. We are not the nation many of us thought we were. That includes the Scots. An invader would walk over us; indeed they are.
Our ability to accept sensible restrictions on our freedom on a temporary basis in the past has been the key to keeping out invaders. What would have happened in 1940 if the country had been full of people declaring it their right to leave their curtains open at night so that the Luftwaffe could navigate accurately, people declaring that they would do what they liked in terms of buying food and where they worked, etc? We’d have had food hoarding by some and starvation for others, people still producing private cars and women’s clothes “because I can make money by satisfying the demand for them and the Government should not interfere with my rights as a libertarian”, etc.
The virus is now the invader, and we are taking precautions against it.
I think that’s called ‘risk assessment’ and ‘common sense’ 😉
If it wasn’t for the media I wouldn’t even know of its existence.
I like the overall approach of this and appreciate it being published here. It will no doubt create a mass of comments simply by its content because that’s what this is about – isn’t it?
The only comment I wish to make about the article is the reference to: “The French The French riot about literally anything”.
I may have agreed with that pre-Covid, but I am not seeing widespread evidence of that since this all began last year. Yes, protests and demonstrations are happening in the cities, but historically, ‘manifestations’ as they are referred to in France, are not taking place on the same level they once were. I live in a town with a population of around 4000 and its population comply, without visible resistance. However, on the underside of that, when you speak to those having to ‘obey’ to keep their employment, they know much of what they are instructed to act and behave, makes no sense in how it is applied and carried out in their workplace.
Slaves of the narrative are across the world!
National ideas are ‘myth’ by definition, imaginary more than factual. Much the same could be said of personal identity. Doesn’t mean your idea of yourself isn’t of the utmost significance, at least to you.
As Powell put it in relation to the nation: ‘You have to win your identity ever anew’, ie create or at least reinvigorate one’s mythos. Under the current dispensation we’re obliged to celebrate the myths of others at the expense of our own which are easy meat for journalists.
Opinion polls have about as much truth value as the latest fashion in shoes or hairstyles which are similarly mimetic, that’s to say herd-driven. But what Heidegger called “the peculiar dictatorship of the public realm” can turn very sharply.
No one foresaw the dramatic shift in public opinion in Eastern Europe thirty years ago where the same people who’d been compliant suddenly feared the consequences of not joining in the rebellion.
This author and this site in general have been complicit in the Covid racket, in suppressing the truth, like every other media outlet. Even so-called ‘sceptics’ are lying by omission. Assuming corporate fraud lawyer Reiner Fuellmich, who calls Covid “organised crime” is telling the truth.
And if he isn’t, if Fuellmich’s detailed allegations about “criminal PCR tests” and the vested interests behind the fraud are false, why aren’t they refuted? Instead he and other truth-tellers like renegade banker Catherine Austin Fitts are censored out of public discourse entirely, ignored by ‘sceptics’ and ‘lockdown fanatics’ alike.
But if he is telling the truth and it gets into the public domain, an almighty reckoning could be on the cards. The media sponsored fallacy that the public mood can be calculated arithmetically, as if poll numbers are decisive like votes in an election, could meet its Waterloo. As Napoleon once put it: ‘Ten who speak make more noise than ten thousand who are silent’.
A constant, to quote Heidegger, is “being-with”, which with-ness is most naturally and rewardingly with ethnic kind. It is the people which is “real”, ie, not a myth, not imaginary. The nation is at one remove, conceptually. Not wrong in itself, but the most direct signifier is one’s own, true people.
Not sure what your point is there, but for Heidegger language / poetry *is* being-with. “Poetry is what really lets us dwell.” (‘Poetically Man Dwells’) What does being-with actually consist in if not what we think and speak? Which in this context means shared identity/’mythos’: that “through which we come into being and *are*”, as he refers to language in Intro to Metaphysics. None of which is to devalue ethnic ties of which our shared stories are constitutive. But Heidegger has next to nothing to say about ethnicity as such in his philosophical writings, unless language is a ‘signifier’ of ethnicity. And even as a party member he opposed the official ideology on race which he regarded as reductively scientific, running counter to his ‘poetic’ conception of nationhood: Dasein being categorically outside the scope of science: the whole point of the phenomenological approach in the first place.
I have just been for a walk along the Thames and and was pleased to see, as examples, a group of 6 teenage lads having a laugh together, four mothers out with their children, all intermingled and groups of three and four sitting on benches chatting.
Meanwhile, Johnson, the delusional fool, is gearing up to tell us, next week, that as a reward for being imprisoned for 10 months he’s going to give us permission to meet up with one friend to sit on a park bench and have a coffee (not tea!!!) from 8 March!
On a separate note, I also saw a police van pull up in a garage forecourt and 8 of the scruffiest coppers I’d ever seen in my life got out to go into the shop. Their uniforms were track suit style and they were wearing trainers. They weren’t off duty or out for a sports day, they were wearing flack jackets and utility belts (no masks until they went into the shop). It is difficult to see that they can let their standards slump any lower.
FYI – you spelled ‘STASI’ wrongly. There’s no ‘p’, ‘o’, ‘l’, ‘c’ or ‘e’ in their name. Just sayin’ like……
As we use to say: The Met:The best Police money can buy!”
Middle-class professionals, often with only one English parent, should avoid generalising about the English people.
Wat’s ta ona bowt lad. Beun a suthunar an a wurdy trikstu downt meen tha kan lip fur enee wun thee no’s.
In God’s oon kuntree (Yorkshire for none English people and the uneducated:-)) Wee duu wat’s rite lad and dun ta fugetit.
Ani ow wat’s ta point dust ta ave wun? If ta as spit it owt.
Notice how many of those polls are YouGov.
Now, imagine that you are a hostile foreign communist power waging an undeclared ideological war to destroy Western societies and economies, to crush individuality, and to remould us in your collectivist, Statist image.
You are highly technologically capable, utterly unethical, and have essentially unlimited manpower and resources.
Now, riddle me this: why would you not capture and abuse YouGov to push your own attitudes onto the British public as though they were our own. All you’d have to do is to flood it with an army of bots and astroturfers. You’re savvy enough to do it through UK based proxies, and you know that YouGov’s business is about being paid to produce the desired results and that they’re not going to look too closely are their userbase as long as the money keeps rolling in.
I think it would require conspiratorial thinking, or the racism of low expectations, to believe that China isn’t engaged in that exercise. Why on earth wouldn’t they?
Russian trolls were trying to influence people against being vaccinated (source: the Times a while back). While they vaccinate themselves and get Russia back on its feet, it suits them to keep other countries suffering.
Being free in England never meant “I can do what I like”. Basically it meant reflected the gradually developing belief that they were subject to the rule of law, and that demands, taxes or the ability of authorities to enter their homes could only exist if prescribed by law and subject to judgment by courts of law. As the 19th Century progressed, that belief in laws was extended to the fact that the institutions which laid down those laws were increasingly democratic, an were contrasted with the diktats of Emperors and powerful bureaucracies. But the idea that the English did not believe in lawfully imposed restrictions in times of crisis, whether world wars or epidemics, suggests that the author has almost no knowledge of English history
It’s freezing out there!! I think we will see quite a difference in behaviours once the sun is shining again. Also, they have imposed very hefty fines for rule breakers, enough to put most people off. If the fines didn’t exist I doubt the compliance would for many.
Excellent piece!
Churchill (master BSer) wrote in his “The history of English speaking people” eloquently about Magna Carta, barons and King John. What he left out (very English of him) was the fact the barons and the King spoke French. The only one that spoke “English” were the servants.
There are commentators that point out that “the English wait in line”.
It reminds me of a story years ago about discussion between two of my colleagues; an Englishman and a Swede.
The Englishman claimed that “we queue”, and the Swede responded so do we, do you know the difference? No one could answer so the Swede went on. We just do it, we don’t talk about it.
The English always talk about their virtues how they obey the law, they queue, stiff upper lip, bulldog fighting spirit etc. And what they mean is that they are different in the sense that they are better. To hear the English speak you would think no one else obeys the law, no one else queue, no one else has a fighting spirit…They brag but they pretend that they don’t.
When did Sweden stop selling iron ore, machines and ball bearings to the nazis, how much did they earn and what would have been the impact on weapons production if they had not?
What is the connection?
How about UK relationship with Saudi Arabia? I can go on endless tangents …So stick to the subject!
P.S. Your comment reminds of a Telegraph/Spectator (I think – it was years ago) article about the return of wolves in East Germany. Half of the comment were about WW2.
The British either quietly and politely do what they want. Or they do it loudly. The idea that the average Briton would be happy about microchips in their arms is ludicrous. And if they really are and I am now entirely out of step with my own culture that says something about the decades of insidious nanny-stateism that has crept in. Although if the Brits were really were now just the quiet puppets of uber controlling corporates and governments it also seems strange they would react so strongly to being told what to do by Brussels, even after years of slander against their very character.
I have never supported any part of lockdown. It doesn’t stop people getting covid. It merely changes the date they get it. All to “protect the service”
That is the wrong way round. The service exists to serve the population. It is not the justification for forcing people to live under virtual house arrest,
That should be “grisly”, not “grizzly” (and, BTW, Kenneth More, not “Moore”).
I can’t be bothered to read your article Ed, given your heading. You think the majority would accept micro chips implanted into them in order to be free, This would only happen if free people lost their fight for freedom and the globalist Titians won their propaganda war and had us by the balls.
The reason the UK has so many spineless, compliant, brain dead, sheep, is because of the 24/7 covid panic porn propaganda, successfully spewed out by the government and mainstream media. The masses are like putty in the hands of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse (Hancock, Witty, Valance, and Ferguson.) It only takes about an hours research to realize that the whole thing is complete and utter drivel, yet the masses scurry about the streets with their face nappies tucked over their ears, eager to get back to the TV for the latest doom and gloom figures from their medical masters. They ooh, and aah, and hang on to every word of these serial liars, with childish awe. If more people had paid attention during science and biology classes at school, they’d see this for what it is. Complete bullshit. My greatest concern is that these dull witted fools are allowed to vote.
When did you do your “science and biology” ?
Did you do any maths at all ?
Have you actually read the Imperial report No 9 (the “Ferguson” model) from the spring soup to nuts ? do you actually know how it truly parsed the numbers from the model ? – deaths were NEVER the nub of the problem – look at table 3 and you will see the Great Barrington Declaration writ large. It’s colour coded to make it easier for you to understand.
If you really want to get into deaths then go to table 4 and you will see that they rather UNDERESTIMATED the death totals by an order of magnitude (their figures covered 2 years) even with an R of 2.4.
The wilful ignorance on this forum about this virus is as deep and wide as any ocean I have ever seen.
Perhaps you can answer some questions
2 replies otherwise UnHerd will assume spam
You seem obsessed with death. Why ?
1. ONS stats for autumn 2020 to January 1. Medians not available for spring 2020. Involving / due to Covid : Median 81 – 84; Mean 79.2 – 82.4
Actuarially 80 – 89 year olds in the UK right now, with no Covid and with 2 long term conditions can expect to live for another 5 years at least. They are the toughies.
2. ONS stats only give rates of death / 100,000 involving Covid 19 in individuals with a hospital based co-morbidity March – July ages 9-110 y. Top 4 are Alzheimer’s / dementia, Mental health conditions in men, Neurologcal conditions in men, Renal conditions.
For a proper discussion of co morbidity in a time of Covid you would be better off reading The Actuary : Co-morbidity question 7 May 2020
You will find different co-morbidity profiles in different countries.
3. ONS stats not available for the complete flu season 2019/20 only 01 – 08 2020 : 48168 Covid, 13169 Pneumonia (viral and bacterial), 394 Influenza. Flu and pneumonia mentioned on more death certificates than Covid19, however Covid19 was the underlying cause of death in over 3x as many deaths 01 – 08 2020
4. Don’t understand the question. Are you referring to how the death certificate is filled out by the physician who was looking after the deceased ? and whether flu or Covid 19 goes into boxes 1a,b,c or 2 ?
2 replies otherwise UnHerd will assume spam
5. According to a pre print in September if you contract flu and Sars Cov 2 at the same time you have an increased risk of death 5.92 (95% CI, 3.21-10.91) compared with not having either virus. Final outcome in the scenario you describe would depend on your age, your poverty level, whether you want to get well, how well your diabetes is controlled, your frailty index, how obese you are, how much interventionist treatment you want, the sort of relationship you have with your doctor, whether or not you want to be hospitalised, how busy your hospital is when you are admitted and hundreds of other factors, some of which would be unknown.
6. The IFR is an almost useless statistic, particularly with Covid because in order to calculate an accurate ratio you need to know how many people are infected in the population at a specific time. This can only ever be an estimate with both influenza and Sars Cov 2 as you are relying on a random seroprevalence sample of the population. Also most notably with Covid 19 the IFR changes according to how old you are – the risk of catching and dying from Covid19 varies 10,000 fold from the age of 1 – 100.
7. The PCR is accurate and useful enough (despite all the scepticism about contamination and false positives). All measurements (from kitchen scales to LC-MS) have errors. Reliability at the ‘holistic’ level is the degree the test predicts/estimates/correlates with the final property it is used to indicate. If PCR was hopeless overall (for whatever reason) it wouldn’t match & predict Covid hospitalisations and deaths as it does. Everyone I have seen doing a PCR test is wearing full PPE. On the individual level you can check false positve / negative probabilities at the BMJ interactive calculator “Interpreting a covid-19 test result” May 2020 The quoted references in the paper are a bit out of date but the basic premise and explanations are fine.
8. Rather than disappearing down a statistical rabbit hole you would be better off reading “Factors associated with COVID-19-related death using OpenSAFELY” Nature July 2020 based on over 17 million UK primary care records or if you want an individualised risk calculator for yourself you can try the ALAMA web site although I don’t know whether this risk calculator has been independently validated yet.
There you go.
Thanks for that, a most useful aide memoire for the next Quislington soirée I am forced to attend.
Did Mr Hedges manage to thank you? If not you should send him a bill for all that advice. He was obviously a heavy smoker and is now worried that the ‘Reaper’ stalks him day and night.
Thank you for your reply. You said the site displayed ignorance. The sensible approach is to define those most at risk. When many factors are involved, I am surprise not more multivariate statistics has been used. Even within with people over the age of 80 years in nursing homes there appears to be a wide range of vulnerability to covid 19. I would have though multivariate statistics could better define vulnerability and so better concentrate resources
As an Englishman, I find this article very depressing, all the more so because it is obviously true.
The England which fought for its freedoms against the Nazis and celebrated its freedoms with the swinging sixties has long gone – well and truly killed off by a virus that your parents and grandparents generations would have shrugged off. We know this because, well, they did (Spanish flu; Asian flu; Hong Kong flu; general age adjusted mortality rates worse than 2020 in the last twenty years,without any specific cause etc.).
It seems as if the English – and more so the British in general – have been regressed to a state of perpetually afraid, face-mask fetishists, vindictively parroting back the rantings of Piers Morgan at anyone who wont join in. This seems universal across the political spectrum – the comments below the line on the Daily Mail are as lockdown loving/liberty hating as they are on the Guardian.
I don’t excuse myself in all this either – I could have done more to oppose all this than I have done and I own up to that, I wrote numerous letters to my MP (who, in fairness to him, replied to all of them), and signed petition after useless petition, but I don’t kid myself that this exonerates me. I will commit to doing what I can to clearing up the mess afterwards and hope that allows me to look myself in the mirror.
I don’t know if there is something in the national character of people living huddled together on a densely packed landmass that gradually erodes a love of freedom and usurps it with a greater love of order – especially if that landmass is starting to look less familiar to you? Perhaps in the distant past we did love freedom but this has gone now. I think it has been happening for a long time.
What the pandemic adds is a sense of fear to people that becomes toxic when mixed with the above. Our leaders need a more responsible way of responding to fear – it is not always an emotion that warrants a sympathetic response. Sometimes when it is a prelude to a demand for harm to be inflicted on your fellow man and their liberties to be suppressed – fear should be answered by that other expression once thought common to the English vernacular – “Pull yourself together, man!”
We can but hope. Meanwhile, I will look into what I will need to do to become a Swedish citizen (or Indian, they’ve handled this whole business quite stoically and compassionately)….
Was that the English Armed forces then? I would love to have let my Grandfather know when he got blown to hell in Dunkirk. If only he had known he could simply have told the Germans that he was in fact Scots / Irish and had no part in the current battle.
That’s unnecessarily hypersensitive – you know full well that’s not what that means.
I could have, of course, gone through all the nations in the war – but the article was only about the English – and I am English, why would I comment on everything else.
As you insist though – its just as pathetic that the Scots and Irish have accepted all this as they too – as you pointed out – once fought for their freedom.
There you go.
No it is NOT! You made a sweeping generalisation on the basis of what is considered ‘British’ You stated primarily that the ‘English’ fought the Nazis! We the British and Canadians, et al fought them.. How dare you negate all of the commonwealth
troops who died for your ‘ENGLAND!
I shall give you a lesson in both ‘British’ history and the variance tommorow. You will be in for a shock buddy.!
Indian, South African, ANZAKs, Native Africans, Caribeans, French, Poles, Dutch Scandavavians, and yes even German and Italians!
When you refer to the ENGLISH you mean the ALLIES!
d**k
Oh and bye the way, even the author makes the spurious link that the English and the British are synmominous! Check my comment to him
Scots ,Welsh and Irish are not, bloody English,!
No – so why bring them up in an article about England, which was not complimentary and nor was my comment.
If you want to go somewhere to be offended before you have read or understood something, Twitter is right there for you.
Otherwise calm down.
People that enjoyed the swinging 60s were few and far in between.
If those freedom are as solid as English Oak, C19 restriction will not kill English Freedoms.
“Pull yourself together, man!”
That’s all that need be said; Bravo!
You deserve 20 up votes if not 50!
That the British care about fairness is not difficult to discern, yes we are more placid about our politics than our more febrile neighbours, but that masks a very stern view of propriety. We get very outraged about moats and duckhouses because they are seen as being outside of the normal abuses of our governing class. Incompetence can be understood or even expected but blatant corruption will not be tolerated. The covid lockdowns are nothing to do with liberty or the lack of, they are being tolerated because we believe them to be necessary. I am a lockdown sceptic, but go along with the rules with an ill grace because I believe in our Parliamentary democracy. Don’t test me though.
What competent state (it need not be a liberal democracy!) tolerates blatant corruption?
Italy.
Just appears to me that the article is a litany of presumptions about how the British feel based upon Opinion Polls.
When will you people realise you are so out of step with what normal people think? I can only assume 5his is because you live in your own little bubbles.
Apparently according to this article “we have accepted Hate Speech Laws” Who is this “we you speak of? I don’t remember being asked, and if I had would of pointed out “Hate ” is an emotion, how do you legislate for an emotion?
I can’t be bothered to check but would assume it was in all parties manifesto in some way or another. However if your concern in the real world is the Economy, Brexit, the Environment etc etc who do you vote for if they all propose the same crap re Hate Laws and the like?
I genuinely believe that all this “Woke” bollocks is yet another example of the tyranny of the minorities over the majority perpetuated by articles like this. It seems that some people in the media will never come to terms with what is actually the vast majority opinion, so they have to educate us proles in the right way of thinking if not voting, because if this stuff is given as a priority they lose elections consistently as has been demonstrated!
But if Opinion Polls would support your position – that would be fine…right?
I think that “free and fair” is a bit dodgy. I feel free, but resent the fact that people can live in the same street as me, have the same advantages and opportunities as I do, but choose not to get out of bed and work the same shifts I that I do, but instead get their rent paid and chucked a few quid to keep body and soul together because their liking for drugs and alcohol makes them unemployable. The most regrettable thing that has happened in my lifetime is that it has become socially acceptable to be a waster.
Where would you rather live?
How does one “down the pub” (sic)?
Wouldn’t that be hard to swallow? Or does the writer mean “Down TO the pub”?
Same way as one goes “dahn the mahket”? (apologies for the rubbish Cockney phonetics!)
What is the evidence for slavery having been ‘abolished by the Normans’? Ten per cent of the population of England were slaves (servi) in Domesday Book (1086) – certainly not uncommon, but most likely substantially less than in Ancient Rome or Greece.
Didn’t it just die out because it was a poor economic model? All that feeding and watering 24/7.
Hire & Fire is much cheaper.
Why is there a picture of an American actor at the top of this article? Did he set us free before he died of alcoholic poisoning?
Australian surely…anyway, at least it wasn’t Kevin Costner.
-or Tom Cruise…neither have that “Errol Flynn Flair”, I guess.
Yes, why couldn’t we have had the late Richard Green?
Greene.
Thanks, my Chief of Operations said otherwise!
Do you remember the splendid opening scene when Greene (in black &white) fires an arrow into a tree? That wonderful sound that accompanied it. Like a modern ant-tank weapon.
Flynn was an Aussie.
food for thought indeed, always a dilemma ‘fairness’ or ‘freedom’ you certainly can’t have both, I think the tick goes to ‘fairness’ with ‘freedom’ being spiritual acceptance of a truly spiritual God.
9/10 for style, 2/10 for content.
I loved the “inevitable decline” of compliance bit. Had you prediced this, I would have been impressed by your analytics. As you did not, I find the “Captain Hindsight” pretentiousness hilarious.
Of course any Culture has to balance individual liberty with collective action, especially at crucial points of development where crises emerge. My own Anglo/Danish/Swiss family have frequent, Schapps and Whisky fuelled discussions about which of our systems (being, of course, the best 3 evah) are best.
The Brit trump card is usually the thing many inferior cultures find hugely amusing, which is our ability in any circumstance to instantly organise a self-policing orderly queue.
Don’t Danes/Swiss queue?
I have to agree with you Ed. I have been living in the UK since 2013 and I have always thought that people flocked to the west especially UK for its freedom and fairness in equal measure . It’s a very intoxicating combination.
I was most surprised in 2020 to learn that people here actually WANTED a China style lockdown here. Of course the media had fanned the Covid fears out of proportion but I did not imagine in my wildest nightmare that it would happen here ( esp after Brexit results) as I thought this to be a country that was truly progressive and free thinking. It’s been educational to me that we are terrified of stepping out of line and of brave thinking lest we be held accountable.
Maybe it was a combination of England’s colonial past & WW2 ( when it was close to loosing its own freedoms), that it realised that it had wronged and been unfair to its colonised subjects ? It may have given the British psyche a left leaning tilt towards fairness even though it meant giving up some of the freedoms.
So is West moving Left and wanting more fairness over freedom & China Russia moving a bit more Right and yearning for a bit more freedom over fairness?
Not convinced the people wanted a Lockdown, MSM & mainly public servants certainly but very few my circle of friends (small business owners & tradesmen), but then we’re the silent majority who spend little time on social media.
The actor in question was named Kenneth MORE. I should know! Stop conflating English with British; we have to put up with this enough from the Americans and Europeans. I understand the point you are making and concur totally with the general thesis therein. But when this confusion is repeated it grates somewhat as a Scot.
Are we that s78t…..thronged with CCTV and still not the most spied on…how s89t is HMG…
If you are correct that it is fairness that the English value above all, it follows that at root they must regard the class system as fair, since as a people they have tolerated, indeed actively promoted, levels of class distinction and privileged birth that have made them infamous in much of the rest of the western world.
Tolerance of the atavistic class system points to a failure to fully individualise as citizens out of former tribal group consciousness. Hence the conformity and acceptance of authority.
Perhaps it is correct to say that a people who are truly free don’t have to boast about it all the time?
The Robin Hood figure could thus be seen as a protest against bad authority, not against authority itself.
All societies have an elite class – English elite has been relatively good (think of Russian elite and their corruption and incompetence).
I said “the western world”, not “the whole world”. I was comparing the English class system with the rest of Europe, with the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.
In terms of the comparison I drew, it is true to say the English class system is infamous. I mean this in the sense of being more extreme, more entrenched, more far-reaching in its effects.
I would go further, and suggest that the English people’s relative blindness to the extreme classist structure of their society lies at the root of most of the nation’s current glaring failures. As every year passes, it becomes more atavistic and more destructive in its effects.
Within this class structure, obviously you have rulers who are relatively “good” and rulers who are “bad”. But this is a separate point to analysis of the structural depth and extent of the class system itself.
Well, if it means going to the pub, all bets are off.
Sorry, but “grizzly” for “grisly” was quite the howler.
Farage has not yet jumped on the lockdown scepticism bandwagon but he can read the tea leaves and he knows that, in just a few months, its time will come.
Reform UK will then be the only party campaigning to limit the authoritarian policy extremes of Covid phobia and this will then follow through naturally to a sceptical policy on the ludicrous costs of unrealistic global warming targets. These policies will be very popular.
But the supine response of the British people to being oppressed by their own government has been sad to see. Most seem to be unable to think for themselves and appear to want to be dominated by those few who can. Presumably this must be the result of our progressive education system.
Well I’ve had enough. As soon as this current panic is over and I can get an exit visa I’m off to Gault’s Gulch.
There are no votes for Reform UK 4 years from now…fighting over C19 lockdown.
I got bored with the tongue in cheek sarcasm Ed about half way through the article. The reason why many of the British followed the guidelines was down to common sense, and knowing and given time there would be a solution. Intelligent beings do what is needed at the time it is needed, not for any other reason.
This is the first time I have seen this opinion articulated and I am grateful to the author.
I myself am guilty of boasting that the English would never put up with x,y or z while then hurrying down my last permitted pint at 11.25 pm like a good boy doing as he is told. We English will also allow the police or anyone in a yellow vest to confiscate our fun (bubbly on New Years Eve at Trafalgar Sq) and boss us into human traffic-flow systems. Over in Germany with its compulsory ID system people are pretty much allowed to assemble and party as they please. This I write with sadness, not as a self-hating Englishman.
Good article but one minor quibble.
Polls Ed? Really? There are many questions that polls ask and people give an answer that they think is socially acceptable, or even an answer that they think they should offer as a good person, but not really believed deep down. Like asking people in 1950, “Are you a Christian?”. Vast majority would say yes, but clearly not so in practice.
I love counting the people who whip off their facemask within seconds of leaving the shops, or wear them so ridiculously incorrectly it cannot be anything other than a statement.
But yes, fairness, even if defined in strange ways, is more important than liberty to most British people.
People’s conformity to the lockdowns are as a result of the Neo-Liberal Revolution undertaken by Blair. Since 1997 the British people have been beaten into submission, there is no such thing as British Identity anymore. We’re a national marketplace, a group of people of various origins all dedicated to pretend that Britain still exists and just get by. If you try to say otherwise the Police, Media and Crown Courts will make sure to rebuke you.
I’m very glad to learn that the great British public have seen the sense of the lockdown and the temporary withdrawal of freedoms in order to combat Covid. They have put this situation into some perspective and unlike Lord Sumption and others have resisted declarations of selfish irresponsibility. The lockdowns have worked in bringing numbers of deaths and infections down. The Government’s big mistake was allowing a let-up in the summer and at Christmas and many have paid for that mistake with their lives
Particularly when Boris ignored the scientists’ call for a two week lockdown in mid-September 2020 due to his inability to manage Tory backbenchers, and by the end of October the virus was out of control, hospitals were creaking at the seams with cancer and heart operations cancelled and large numbers dying from Covid each day, and he had to implement a one month lockdown from 3rd November to bring it back under control.
…And seasonal ‘Flu? I watched that utter fool Chris Whitty on the No.10 Press Briefing on the Brussels Fraudcasting Corporation live-feed report last week in which he stated (and I quote) “We’ve managed to get rid of ‘Flu this year”.
Really, Chris? Best let the Vatican and the Nobel Awards Committee know about that, because you’ll be a dead-cert for both a Sainthood and the Prize for Medicine.
FFS.
Indeed! I look forward to the Mint striking a new 50p coin celebrating this historic achievement, maybe a new issue of stamps too.
On second thoughts, a new coin might not sit well with the prescribed direction of travel in our brave new built back better world…
That is ridiculous – we have no evidence for the efficacy of lockdowns and this post hoc ergo proctor hoc reasoning that you have just given is going to ensure the pitiless indifference towards those suffering as a result of lockdown, because of an ill deserved faith in it as a disease control measure (and faith – rather than reasoning – is the right word)
We know that trajectories in the virus follow a similar path regardless of when restrictions, if restrictions or what level of restrictions are introduced. We know that hard lockdown areas do not compare any more favourably with light/no lockdown areas – despite the incremental observable differences that your hypothesis would suggest.
The only places with significant differences are in the far East – however, because they have similarly used a range of measures (from light/no lockdown to hard lockdown), we can only conclude this is not a reflection of human activity – or else the same signature of success of these measures would be visible here.
More importantly there is no precedent for these measures and no risk assessment for them now. You are applauding the sheepish and callous compliance with a cruel and ill considered social experiment.
I watch the news, listen to some commentary, read some of the data online, resist the silly hysterical conspiratorial comments which fill these columns, trust those whose responsibility it is to guide us through and make up my own mind.
To use one if the authors examples. If the result of lying about where you first boarded a plane is the economy remains in lockdown then yes, a harsh penalty is well justified. Reads like a journalist who wants to keep enjoying his freedom to travel without having to face the consequence of his actions.
BTW… There are those in Britain who are British yet gratefully not English. The author seems to have become stuck in his Robin Hood world I fear.
Why the insult? Evidence of the proverbial chip on both shoulders, perhaps?
What was the point of the anti English snark?
Chip in the arm … great idea … it’s save lugging the credit cards around … just scan the arm. Plus it’s absolutely foolproof from the identity perspective ! Fingerprint and chip in arm … it’s got to be me !!