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Are you a ‘basic conservative’? As Tony Soprano shows, we all long for clear-cut social norms — even if we disobey them

Tony Soprano, looking more like a villain than a victim. (Photo by HBO)

Tony Soprano, looking more like a villain than a victim. (Photo by HBO)


February 25, 2021   6 mins

Like most people with children, I have spent much of the past 12 months following the advice of Don Corleone, who once said that “a man who doesn’t spend time with his family can never be a real man”. I’ve also spent a fair amount of time with the Soprano family, re-watching — like many people — David Chase’s great masterpiece for the first time in nearly two decades.

Tony Soprano was a figure uncomfortable with the modern world. He used his shrink as a means to alleviate his guilt about his selfish and violent behaviour, but he was also sceptical of the radical ideas behind psychiatry. Conceived during a decade when public emotional behaviour changed a great deal, the Sopranos featured Tony frequently referring to his preference for the reticent “strong silent type” symbolised by Golden Age movie star Gary Cooper.

In between racketeering, extortion and the occasional murder, Tony longs for a simpler moral universe where social norms are clear-cut; a world which would make this anxious middle-aged man feel more at peace, less edgy. That moral hypocrisy, although in Tony’s case extreme, is characteristic of what Matthew Walther recently termed “barstool conservatism”.

Writing in The Week on life after Trump, Walther wrote:

“What Trump recognised was that there are millions of Americans who do not oppose or even care about abortion or same-sex marriage, much less stem-cell research or any of the other causes that had animated traditional social conservatives. Instead he correctly intuited that the new culture war would be fought over very different (and more nebulous) issues: vague concerns about political correctness and ‘SJWs,’ opposition to the popularisation of so-called critical race theory, sentimentality about the American flag and the military.”

And while these barstool conservatives “accept pornography, homosexuality, drug use, legalised gambling”, they dislike attacks on their country, the rapid cultural change brought about by immigration and an elite, urban caste who clearly despise them.

This appears to be true of Britain, too. The Tories were able to make huge gains in the last election because, when it came to values, the party aligned more closely with a lot of Labour voters. But those voters aren’t “social conservatives”. Like their Trump-voting counterparts, the new Tory voters are more likely to have kids outside of marriage than the liberal elite in California or London, who tend to “talk the 60s but walk the 50s”. They don’t oppose abortion or sex education, don’t have any particular issue with homosexuality, and they’ll probably come around on the transgender debate.

The real social conservatives are not generally found in former industrial towns that appear on TV vox pops; they tend to be middle or even upper-middle class, well-educated, married and religious, and in Britain are more common in shires and in parts of west and south London, at heavily upper-middle-class Catholic parishes and the high-performing schools attached to them. These are the people who talk the 50s and walk the 50s, too.

There is a big difference between cultural and social conservatism. The former could be said to be the default in almost all human cultures. The latter is learned and cultivated, and today is a counter-cultural movement popular with a relatively small number of well-educated people.

Cultural conservatism, however, is natural to human society. Researchers at Oxford University, studying 60 different cultures, found that they all share seven basic cultural codes, which involve bravery, helping your family, helping your group, returning favours, deferring to superiors, dividing resources fairly and respecting others’ property.

These are the moral norms that all cultures naturally observe, but have been slightly adapted in what Joseph Henrich first called “WEIRD” cultures. Western Educated Industrialised Rich Democratic cultures have values suited towards very large-scale societies, where people are unusual in sharing resources with non-family members. There is far less emphasis on the group and the family as a result.

In almost all hunter-gatherer societies, 300 is about the maximum number of individuals that can live together before people start ripping each other’s heads off (and that is much better than our closest relative, the chimpanzee). Yet humans were able to scale up and enjoy the benefits of modernity with one simple trick — religion. Henrich cites the anthropologist Donald Tuzin, who investigated an unusual New Guinea tribe, the Arapesh, unusually living in a group of up to 2,500 without bloodshed; Tuzin found that they had developed beliefs about gods that allowed them, unlike their rivals, to nurture solidarity.

Religion allows humans to co-exist in much larger groups, but as Heinrich’s book argues, one particular religion was able to accelerate this on an unprecedented scale — Roman Catholicism. By banning marriage between cousins in particular, the medieval Church crushed the strength of clans and created a society in which people were willing to cooperate and share with strangers. WEIRD societies.

Even today, people from countries in which cousin marriage was banned the longest still consistently donate more blood, give more to charity and are less likely to cheat in exams or avoid paying parking fines — and also have the most successful democracies. Those parts of western Europe in which the Catholic Church struggled to ban cousin marriage also, and not by coincidence, produced Don Corleone and Tony Soprano.

One result of this high-trust form of society was, of course, liberalism, an entirely novel worldview that relies on people thinking way beyond their clan, to far more abstract levels of society — even to humanity in the general. Yet liberalism is still unnatural, after centuries, and most people are “default conservatives” — they believe that family should come before strangers, and countrymen before foreigners. They feel stung if their flag is burned or their ancestors mocked. However anti-social their own instincts, they, like Tony Soprano, feel an obligation to defend their country from external threats. Conservatism is our default setting, designed for a world that is dangerous and in which we need to be courageous, defend our family and group, defer to superiors and share acquisitions fairly. Liberalism, with its focus on individual rights, is a mutation.

Yet “social conservatism”, as we imagine it in the West, is not the same thing; like liberalism, it is an interpretation of Christianity, although a more disciplined (and perhaps less immediately enjoyable) one. Christianity is the most unnatural of self-disciplines; loving your enemies and laying down your life for non-kin go against all our instincts and Tony Soprano would never be foolish enough to do so. Sexual restraint, especially among powerful men, requires a role model as persuasive and powerful as St Paul, one who can overcome their Roman urge to dominate with guilt.

Sure, historically mafias paid lip-service to Catholicism because that was the cultural norm — the Church was strong and they craved respectability. But modern mafias don’t; the Camorra of Naples have in recent years had a lesbian and even a transgender boss, which is very brave and progressive of them.

Western social conservatism, like liberalism, is weird, and WEIRD. It takes discipline and education, and social conservatives tend to be highly conscientious and well-educated, partly because Christianity is complicated and requires great self-control. The most “consistently conservative” Americans, for example, are found not in trailer parks drooling over Fox & Friends, as their opponents might believe, but in universities.

As both Left and Right have proved throughout history, education and cultivation can produce the worst type of intolerance. If you look at European history, the most religiously intolerant time was not the Dark Ages, or early medieval period (c.500-1000). Surviving chronicles of that mostly illiterate era recall people talking and laughing throughout Mass, fornicating priests, and a widespread belief in unorthodox, often pagan ideas. You wouldn’t get burnt for heresy in the Dark Ages, contrary to the stereotype, but you might well do in the Late Middle Ages, the Renaissance era, when literacy had become widespread. Some of the worst torturers and sadists of the time could discourse on the Latin poets while turning the screw on a torture rack.

But the society they lived in was far safer and far more restrained; there were far fewer births outside marriage, and therefore lower infant mortality; men had become less inclined to have mistresses; violence, in particular the impulsive violence that plagued earlier medieval history, was in steep decline. That sort of social conservatism has to be learned; it is against our instincts.

Modern conservatism is a sort of alliance between these two ways of thinking, but it is an uneasy one, as Trump showed. His success was to appeal to default instincts in a society where powerful people openly provoke many of those seven basic human moral values. And it is a powerful selling point; far more sellable than the social conservatism that once dominated the American Right, but which depended on a shrinking churchgoing population.

Yet, unfashionable as social conservatism may be, there is a lot of evidence showing that churchgoers are less prejudiced than other conservative voters. They are more trusting, are more likely to volunteer and more satisfied with their neighbourhood and with family relationships. And since 1992 the share of Americans with no religion has quadrupled — and trebled even among conservatives.

There is a danger, therefore, that as social conservatism fades, the Right becomes a repository of the depressed, the disappointed and those in need of a cause and a leader; people who, to some extent like Tony Soprano, are anxious and confused by today’s moral confusion but lacking a firm moral code of their own. Social conservatism may appear off-putting but it offers a real vision, while the barstool variety, appealing to basic emotional brain responses, is little more than a political version of the social media clickbait, porn, junk food and opioids that pervade our time and overloads our minds.


Ed West’s book Tory Boy is published by Constable

edwest

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Vikram Sharma
Vikram Sharma
3 years ago

No culture can thrive, or deserve to survive unless it conserves the family unit. This is where the blueprint of an individual’s life is laid, for good and for bad. There is enormous neuronal pruning in the first 2 years of life. We now have high quality neuroscience evidence for the effects of the various components of mother child interaction and the consequences when it fails. Our basic neuroarchitecture is laid down and shaped in those years. We can now see the differential impact of mothering on the infant- the smell of the breast, the feel of the skin, the feel of milk in mouth and the maternal baby gaze – all affect different parts of the growing brain. Love, hate, violence, disgust, trust, paranoia, emotional control, self-regulation, personality traits that will determine long term life outcomes, all will be scaffolded in this stage of life, and then strengthened during adolescence.

By first denying anything like gender roles or biologically driven behaviours as ‘norm’, by seeing mothering not as  nature’s gift of love to nurture the species but as an oppressive tool to control women, by eliminating the role of fathers in child rearing, by turning care bonds in the family into an argument about who is exploiting whom, by turning the most beautiful and profound aspects of human existence- loving one’s children, caring for one’s parents, being tied to one’s clan or community- into transactions which constantly require state intervention or seeing them as problems  of material deprivation rather than emotional squalor, the Angloshpere is conducting a very interesting social experiment. I say Anglosphere because many other European cultures, particularly the Mediterranean, continue to understand the values of family and tradition, and are still trying to conserve.
England is lost unless it conserves the family. All other forms of conservatism are secondary.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Thumbs up. Bravo.

Cheryl Jones
Cheryl Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Well said

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Most of the second paragraph can more accurately be described as the left’s wish list. Much of it flows echoes the What We Believe section that used to be part of BLM’s website. Curiously, that part – which never mentions fathers and includes “men” only as the potential threat they post to women – has since been taken down.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

You didn’t feel like commenting on the article, then?

Simon Denis
Simon Denis
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Another sneer? What do you imagine you bring to the discussion by means of these snide asides? Aren’t we allowed to engage in dialogue below the line?

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

Of course, but dialogue that is about issues raised in the article. The post reads like a paste of something the writer wanted to say and thought they’d drop in here in the absence of an article about culture and families. Maybe if it was explicit that the Sopranos and Corleones were the type of family we should aspire to I’d have got the reference.

Brian Dorsley
Brian Dorsley
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

There’s no point responding. Modern education has bred a new kind of person that, when confronted by concepts not learned in textbooks, lash out in fear and anger.

Drahcir Nevarc
Drahcir Nevarc
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

You didn’t feel like responding to the comment then?

Simon Denis
Simon Denis
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

I am lost in admiration for the wisdom and eloquence of these remarks. Many thanks.

Vikram Sharma
Vikram Sharma
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

Thank you very much.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

England is lost unless it conserves the family” No doubt – but does nothing more follow?

Irene Ve
Irene Ve
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

On first read, I loved all you are saying, but something was nagging at the back of my mind and I gave it an hour to digest. Now I think I get it.
When I was a young mother flying high on maternal hormones some years ago, I was virtually speaking your words and thinking your thoughts regarding babies.
I made all the “right” choices, like stopping my career to be with the baby, dedicating all of my time and love and everything (you name it) to the most important thing in my life, etc. etc. At the same time scores of my friends, colleagues, relatives were also making their choices of parenting styles. All sorts of choices.
I can tell you all now one thing I’ve learnt: the way you raise your kid does not matter in the least. (OK, maybe a bit, but I just do not see how). The result I see is this: all the offspring is exactly what you would expect to get out of combinations of the DNAs of two particular individuals (brains, mental health, character, physique, etc).
I feel somewhat cheated, because the best kids that I know came from the families who virtually neglected them, parents contributing to higher causes, for example, high IQ super achieving parents decided to work for a charity in Africa and just left their babies, the youngest just 6 months, with their grandparents for more than a decade. Oh, at the time I thought “OK, I am not judging, but surely, this is so wrong, the kids will be ruined. Turned out to be the best of the bunch, anything you can dream for your own kids they achieved (Oxbridge, top jobs, relationships, popularity, sheer joy of life in their eyes) and they achieved it independently. What annoys me the most is that they love their parents too!
Another point is about extended families. Everybody I know, absolutely everybody, people from different cultures and countries, consider extended family as a drag. Yes, they do help when you need, especially with the babies, but it comes at a cost. Whether you are ready to pay with loosing your privacy and independence it is your choice. Some cultures teach you to embrace and love that situation, but to me it is like Stockholm Syndrome – you just learn to love your “prisoners” as there is no other way to survive.

Vikram Sharma
Vikram Sharma
3 years ago
Reply to  Irene Ve

You are right. Genes matter more than nurture. But we have control over nurture more than over genes. And extended families are extensions of mother and father figures, all held by bonds of filial obligatIon.
individual privacy is great for the middle class Briton. Look at the abandoned single mom in a rough estate and tell me that independence is great and the extended family a prison.
Nature (genes) endowed us with the need to form clans and to look after those with whom we share our genes. Nature did not evolve the welfare state or communism.

Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Vikram, just do a search on the Frankfurt School, and the 11 Points of the FS to see how exactly the floor plan of what you describe was laid out, and through their plan, took over the Left. Even Orwell used your second paragraph to create his hellish dystopia.

One of the most pernicious plans ever was ‘The Welfare Trap’ which basically traps the poor into generational poverty and unemployability. The main means of the welfare trap destroying all it catches is by stopping marriage. In USA this system is almost complete in how it prevents most single mothers from being married, especially if the man has any form of income. In Europe and UK it is a bit less that way, but still works to the detriment of all.

Vikram Sharma
Vikram Sharma
3 years ago
Reply to  Galeti Tavas

Thank you. I understand there is some concern about the accuracy the 11 point plan, although I don’t think that matters. Here is an article that traces the impact of the FS in a rigorous manner
https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/fid_91-96/921_frankfurt.html

Irene Ve
Irene Ve
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

My argument (mostly based on personal experience) was multigenerational/extended family vs nuclear family models, not welfare state. Nuclear family does not equate or cause welfare state. Poverty is the initial reason for welfare, and then welfare makes poverty permanent creating a vicious circle.
Now I argue that extended family/clan preference is not a genetically based choice, it is based on economic reasons (you yourself support it in your example of a poor single mom needing such family help). Again, based on your example, it is the poor who would need an extended family, people above poverty level may better benefit from a nuclear one as it gives more freedom of choice. Instead of multiple relatives over whom we have no choice and with whom we sometimes have little in common (apart from genes) we create networks of support and socialising with friends, people you can actually choose. Such networks can be very strong and you can create yours to fit you perfectly. You have no choice over relatives.
I think the consensus today is that different family patterns are result of economic and following social developments. Nuclear family in the West took hold with industrialization, this topic is well researched. In areas where industrialization only started in XX century such changes are only beginning and influence of extended families is diminishing.

Last edited 3 years ago by Irene Ve
Terry M
Terry M
3 years ago
Reply to  Irene Ve

Irene, perhaps you should remember that the grandparents that raised the kids also raised the superachieving parents. Give them credit.

My experience is exactly opposite. Kids whose parents showed them love and were good role models turn out to be good adults. Those whose parents didn’t care themselves don’t care.

In a study of about 1 million kids in schools here in Ohio, there was only one factor that correlated with academic success: parental involvement. Not money, education, race, intelligence, creed, or careers of the parents, only how interested they were in their kids education.

Irene Ve
Irene Ve
3 years ago
Reply to  Terry M

Terry, I agree, grandparents did raise those kids, (not kids anymore), two sets of them. Which rather supports my point: some other qualified/dedicated carer who really cares can raise the children, and they will turn out just fine.
You just mentioned the study, I would be interested in the method applied: which other variables were considered, the exact wording in the questionnaires used etc. I am saying this because here in the UK there were reports of a similar very big study conducted a few years ago. They also discarded money, education, race and such as there was no correlation.The only factor that they found correlated with children’s academic success was the fact that there was a lot of books in the house, the more the better.

Annette Kralendijk
Annette Kralendijk
3 years ago
Reply to  Irene Ve

“Yes, they do help when you need, especially with the babies, but it comes at a cost.”
i don’t think you are looking at the effect of an extended family on the child. Your comments seems to be about adults considering extended family as a drag, but surely the benefits to the child are what’s important, a child with two parents, four grandparents and assorted aunts and uncles all caring about them and giving them different viewpoints and guidance are a huge boon to children. It isn’t just about baby sitting for parental convenience. My own children got so much from their three grandparents (one had died long before they were born) and aunts particularly, but also several uncles. They each contributed hugely to the growth and development of our children.

Irene Ve
Irene Ve
3 years ago

I agree with all the benefits that additional exposure that caring adults, other than parents, brings to children.
I argue that in the case of the nuclear family we substitute a network of relatives with networks of friends which bring the same benefits to our children. I also argue that such networks may be preferable as we have a choice to fine tune it to our needs and our children’s needs. We have no say with regards who our relatives are, but we can choose our friends.
Looking back, the best time to start creating such friends for yourself is university time, another influx of friends comes from children’s school.
I might add that strong extended families somewhat isolate their members from wider society. We all have limited time, and if you invest much of it into relatives, a lot can be left out. But then life is all about finding the right balance for opposing interests.

Jayne Lago
Jayne Lago
3 years ago
Reply to  Irene Ve

Sorry, I have to take issue with your view that kids don’t generally turn out well / bad no matter what you do. My daughter is 42 now and I adored her from the first breath. I now know that I made a huge mistake by giving her everything and being her crutch when times were bad. She cannot stand on her own two feet and has been on antidepressants for 9 years. She takes us for granted and I no longer reach her expectations……I don’t blame her because I see where I went wrong. It is so true that you have to struggle, have very little like they did in the last generations and most of all learn appreciation, personal responsibility and self respect, all of which are generally missing today. I too have family who didn’t put their children first, and their kids adore them and are respectful and responsible

Zorro Tomorrow
Zorro Tomorrow
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Interesting with a ‘but’ when I think of my late parents, with their offspring scattered to the winds (of England). Cousins who may have heard of each other but have little in common socially, culturally with any family identity. 50 years ago we would all have met at christenings, weddings and funerals. Not now. The ‘gene’ is a concept, spreading the seeds far and wide, naturally avoiding the meeting of cousins. Perish the thought that family members do not always like each other. If, as you claim, family is all, then the Asian communities will inherit the WEIRD and the western white race is in decline.
Watching a documentary related to the subject on those communities of the old mining areas. The old guard are now in care homes, the terraced houses now rented out to social misfits and paid for by social security. The wiser folk left for new pastures, deserted the ‘family’ area and left the less fortunate behind.

Jayne Lago
Jayne Lago
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

I’m sorry to say I think it is too late. There is too much emphasis on the material, by the shallow, the immature and the selfish.

Josie Bowen
Josie Bowen
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Well said.

rawshark65
rawshark65
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

“…many other European cultures, particularly the Mediterranean, continue to understand the values of family and tradition, and are still trying to conserve.”
True that, for my part I am more and more struck by the contrast with the UK and Spain (Andalucia), where I lived for a while, while poorer with a lower standard of education they are still raised to have a basic level of patriotism and loyalty to their culture and country. They might not not wave the flag but they know where they’re from, they might not go to church outside of births, weddings and funerals but they’re “culturally catholic”.

Simon Denis
Simon Denis
3 years ago

What you call cultural conservatism clearly overlaps with right wing Liberalism, and the blend has a body of discipline perhaps better suited to modern conditions than the complex requirements of old-time religiosity. Second, social conservatives are happy to form alliances with their cultural brethren, hence Trump’s large and increasing number of supporters. There is no reason why this tendency should fail. Lastly, your pessimism with regard to conservative prospects is clearly shaped by your milieu. Living among the crazed citizenry of modern London puts proportion and perspective at risk and means that you miss an important element in your own argument: that modern civilisation cuts against human nature. Yes, it has successfully stretched our ability to mix, mingle and do business, but don’t you think that the elastic is reaching the limit of its stress-tested strength? Especially now that it has to bear burdens of insult and denigration. The effects are already under way. Former Liberals are moving Right; the Right itself is hardening; the general public is dismayed and uneasy; the herd scents danger and shifts anxiously in its pens – and still the crazed left goes on – goading them. No society can endure the destruction of its cultural base, but this is the essence of the Left-modernist project and its sponsors show no willingness to compromise. Something or someone has got to give.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

the herd scents danger and shifts anxiously in its pens – and still the crazed left goes on – goading them.”
In Private Eye this statement would earn Pseud of the Month status. Hm! How can I sit at home and show everybody how superior I am? – how comfortable I am in my great knowledge?

Michael Joseph
Michael Joseph
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I think it’s a good image and not pretentious at all. I think your comment reveals way more about you than anything else. And what it reveals ain’t good…

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Joseph

I suppose that what really concerns me is that I see myself to be one of the ‘herd’. OK, I might have crawled out by education but that still leaves my family and some of my school friends. To reduce almost everybody I know to the status of a ‘herd’ makes my flesh crawl. It is easy to see from this how wokes win and the rest lose. Wokes manage to disguise things they do as some kind of human action, which means that they can only win in the great battle. Try repeating that quotation above on air, without hiding behind the pages of UnHerd , and you will see what I mean.

Brian Dorsley
Brian Dorsley
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I read it more as a metaphor rather than likening people to cattle. If anything I felt it was more insulting when experts were talking about ‘herd’ immunity. That was a lot more pointed in comparing humans to docile animals.

Jayne Lago
Jayne Lago
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I don’t profess to be as articulate as you are but I have to tell you that this total obsession with platforms/technology has already created ‘The Herd’ and no doubt like everyone else you are part of it too.

Chris Waghorn
Chris Waghorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I thought it a very apt analogy. Indeed, one could go further and speak about how the herd just wants security, food and somewhere warm to sleep – entirely ignorant of how they are being farmed and headed, eventually, for the abbatoir after every little thing of use has been wrung from them.

Last edited 3 years ago by Chris Waghorn
Mark Bailey
Mark Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Entirely unpretentious, but an easily visualised image created by words. The opposite of pretentious language, in fact.

If you disagree with Mr Denis’s sentiments, say so. Don’t issue failed snarks about his literary ability.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark Bailey

I don’t know what ‘failed snarks’ means. As I say above, if you feel so strongly that you are right, try going out and saying that in a political meeting or writing to a newspaper. What you are saying is that you are right and everyone else is wrong or stupid – how pathetic.

Mark Bailey
Mark Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

“Snark”: noun; To fault or find fault in a mocking or sneering tone.
“Failed”..well that is self-evident from the responses.
I have no idea whether I am right or wrong, but I believe myself to be. otherwise why would I say it?. Whether you are right or wrong in your beliefs, I also don’t know, because you didn’t tell us your criticism of the views expressed, but merely snarked….that word again.
“Pathetic”. Probably, but then we are all deserving of sympathy sometimes.

Tony Nunn
Tony Nunn
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark Bailey

noun; To fault or find fault in a mocking or sneering tone.”
That looks like a definition of a verb to me.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

Thumbs up.

Simon Denis
Simon Denis
3 years ago
Reply to  stephen f.

Many thanks – and to all who have come to my defence. Wheatley is persistently disingenuous. He claims to be after a user-friendly form of conservatism which can appeal to the young; but in fact he never offers anything more than spokes in the wheels of conservative argument, sometimes of a very petty and personal character. His message can be summarised thus: Give up. It’s more trendy.

Andrew Baldwin
Andrew Baldwin
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

Ed must be aware of the existence of Orthodox Christians in the world, but chooses to ignore them. The Orthodox Church also prohibits cousin marriage, and is if anything stricter on the subject than the Catholic Church. The Russian tradition of marrying a girl from another village was established just to avoid inbreeding with all its harms, and provided an additional protection against cousin marriage since paternity was sometimes unclear. There are more than three times as many Orthodox Christians in the world as there are Anglicans. Perhaps Ed should pay more attention to them. (Sorry, Simon, I started this as a reply to your very good comment, but it ended up not really being so. I do think an Orthodox Christian believer would generally be a social conservative.)

Last edited 3 years ago by Andrew Baldwin
Simon Denis
Simon Denis
3 years ago
Reply to  Andrew Baldwin

A very interesting point in any case. And the Orthodox offer the example of a Christian denomination which has never renounced tradition. As a result, they are confident and unbowed in the face of modernist attacks.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

‘Crazed citizenry of modern London’ – ‘herd…shifts anxiously in its pens’ – ‘something or someone has to give’. Read it in a faux David Attenborough voice and it makes sense as a sub-standard voiceover for a documentary on any particular metropolitan group you dislike.

Simon Denis
Simon Denis
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Strange how the left focuses on third order issues of word choice and tone, isn’t it? Perhaps it’s because it’s got nothing of substance to say…

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

Maybe I just got offended as being cast as one of the millions of crazed London citizens. Anyone making a generalisation like that needs to think before posting. I could have been kinder, accepted.

Drahcir Nevarc
Drahcir Nevarc
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

There there now. Mummy kiss it better.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago

they believe that family should come before strangers, and countrymen before foreigners. They feel stung if their flag is burned or their ancestors mocked.
Are these supposed to be bad things? They seem more like fundamental aspects of human nature.

Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

This guy is just a total true believer in socio-biology, that weird pseudo science of finding evolutionary basis’s of complex society behaviors – where differences between causation and correlation have been totally thrown away to allow intellectual games of connect the dots, and none can demonstrate it false, as it is mere games and has almost no real link to being true.

Michael Joseph
Michael Joseph
3 years ago

Another great piece from Ed West. Although I always get the feeling that he’s a guy who would really benefit from leaving London. There’s a growing strain of Stockholm Syndrome in what he writes – I half imagined him blinking out an S.O.S. as he was writing that recent piece on why he regretted voting for Brexit. The problem with living in London is that, even as a conservative, you begin to feel that the political and social and cultural concerns of London are of great import. As soon as you leave, though, you realise that’s not the case.

Adam Buckland
Adam Buckland
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Joseph

Haha this is so spot on. Happened to me too when I was at uni there. Found myself gradually becoming more and more liberal, not because I was intentionally trying to be more like my friends, it’s just that after so long being the only conservative voter in your group of mates, I guess some of their views start to rub off on you/it makes you question your opinions more. However, after I moved back home to the North West, over the course of a year my views slowly shifted back to the right

Amelia Brooker
Amelia Brooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Adam Buckland

London now is a Cess Pit!

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
3 years ago
Reply to  Amelia Brooker

I like my little corner in the south west of London – it seems to be more “civilised” than “Cess”

Last edited 3 years ago by Ian Barton
Daniel Goldstein
Daniel Goldstein
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

The suburbs of SW London are a world away from inner London.

Daniel Goldstein
Daniel Goldstein
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Joseph

Indeed, he spends most of the article seemingly defending a particular brand of conservatism and then seems to chicken out at the end by insulting it as no better than clickbait or opioids. As if he had to excuse himself with a moral get-out. Maybe it’s in case his fellow Londoners think he’s “one of them”. I’d really benefit from leaving London.

Drahcir Nevarc
Drahcir Nevarc
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Joseph

Strangely enough, living in the most left wing suburb of a left wing city – Bristol – has entrenched my conservatism. I’ve seen, to borrow a phrase from D1ckens, how not to do it.

Nick Whitehouse
Nick Whitehouse
3 years ago

Ed
Think of this scenario: Two people are drowning in a river, one is your mother and the other is a stranger. Who do you rescue first?
I suspect that you would become a cultural conservative, in an instance.
One could extrapolate this example to include your country, before another country. Would this make you a barstool conservative?
Or would you let your mother drown to prove how good a Liberal you are?
The current cancel culture from the left reminds me of your words above “Some of the worst torturers and sadists of the time could discourse on the Latin poets while turning the screw on a torture rack”.
In fact cancel culture is more like “political version of the social media clickbait, porn, junk food and opioids that pervade our time and overloads our minds” – to use your words!
Your last paragraph should have read “There is a danger, therefore, that as social conservatism fades, the ” Left ” becomes a repository of the depressed, the disappointed and those in need of a cause and a leader; people who, to some extent like Tony Soprano, are anxious and confused by today’s moral confusion but lacking a firm moral code of their own.

Chris C
Chris C
3 years ago

Two people are drowning in a river, one is your mother and the other is a stranger. Who do you rescue first?”
Surely, if the ‘stranger’ were actually their boss, a real Conservative would put their boss before their own family? After all, the ideal Conservative is one who supports having their pay as an employee held down while the bosses allocate themselves large rises?

Nick Whitehouse
Nick Whitehouse
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Then, by your definition, I am obviously not a real conservative.
Mind you, maybe given my circumstances – my mother died when I was young – it would be a bit of a shock to find her in a river!

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Maybe instead of fixating on the straw man conservative who lives in your head, you might try associating with actual ones.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

A cultural conservative would let them both drown and blame it on the government, a social conservative would pray for them. A libertarian would accept both deaths as the price paid for swimming free in the river and a nanny state socialist would have paid a lifeguard to sit around doing nothing in preparation for just this scenario.

Last edited 3 years ago by Last Jacobin
Richard Audley
Richard Audley
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Neither if you are a non swimmer.
Send in the Spaniel instead.

Daniel Goldstein
Daniel Goldstein
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Maybe for the Conservative party, but not small c conservatives. Perhaps that’s Toryism. You’re either bringing to mind the archetypal forelock-tugging serf, or an extreme Randian Thatcherite. And I’m not sure the latter would save their boss, given the choice.

Brian Dorsley
Brian Dorsley
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

What a delightfully naive view of human behavior you express here. ‘If you’re this, then you do that.’ Reminds me of when I was five years old and pretended to be a Dalek.

Karl Schuldes
Karl Schuldes
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Chris
There are two kinds of commenters at this site: those trying to persuade and those throwing stink bombs. Guess which one you are.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
3 years ago

n=3 people are drowning in a river, one is your mother the other two strangers. You can save your mother or the other 2. At what n do you leave your mother?

Nick Whitehouse
Nick Whitehouse
3 years ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

This scenario is becoming more complicated! It does beg the question on how I can save two, but not one and then another.
I think my instinct would be to save my mother first, If only because it would be most interesting to find my mother trying to swim in a river – as she has been dead for over 60 years.

Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

Better yet – a virus is stalking your 95 year old granny. You can save your children’s education, pension, and assure they have jobs and access to preventative health care, or you can save granny – which do you chose?

Galeti Tavas
Galeti Tavas
3 years ago

A true Liberal would ask, ‘what was the race of the other one drowning’ before being able to answer. Their algorithms are much more complex.

Daisy D
Daisy D
3 years ago

Interesting points about the Church’s prohibition of cousin marriage leading to broader alliances amongst people in Christian cultures, thereby inculcating what we think of as more liberal values.
Also, appreciated the distinction Mr. West presented between people who talk the 50’s and walk the 60’s. My husband and I walk and talk the 50’s. Both of us are Classic Liberals (aka, Conservatives) and we both voted for Trump, as did many of our social counterparts (affluent, educated, religious) which remains a largely unobserved phenomena. So it was good to see it touched on here.
The tribal thing falls apart a bit when I think of my Jewish husband, who daily prays w/an orthodox Jewish community, many of whom are married to cousins, all of whom are major league Conservatives, all voted for Trump and have had no difficulty seeing past any of Trump’s foibles towards the bigger, more important picture. For my part, I attend church on Sunday and practice my religion daily, not because God has or needs a religion, but because I do.
The fellow who plows our driveway when it snows is a cop who plows part time. He’s almost certainly a Trump supporter of the kind described by the author, decent, law abiding, very hard working – but talking the 50’s and walking the 60’s. Trump’s message – putting America first again – resonated as loudly for him as it does for my husband and me.
Biden/Harris, with their globalistic one big happy tribe nonsense, is an abomination.

Last edited 3 years ago by Daisy D
barbara neil
barbara neil
3 years ago

I read this with some interest, and anticipation, looking forward to the development of the argument. But.
“The most “consistently conservative” Americans, for example, are found not in trailer parks drooling over Fox & Friends, as their opponents might believe, but in universities.”
I disagree. What can be found in universities the world over are a majority of reactionary Progressives. There have been numerous studies done on the political positions of University teaching staff and Conservative is what they are not.
And this is simply a clanger!
“There is a danger, therefore, that as social conservatism fades, the Right becomes a repository of the depressed, the disappointed and those in need of a cause and a leader; people who, to some extent like Tony Soprano, are anxious and confused by today’s moral confusion but lacking a firm moral code of their own.”
You mean there is a danger that the Right will become the way the Left already is?

Terry M
Terry M
3 years ago
Reply to  barbara neil

Yes, these two items made me wonder what the heck he was saying.

Jonathan Oldbuck
Jonathan Oldbuck
3 years ago

“This is what I’ve been trying to tell you all along, you stay with your own people!!!!!”

Franz Von Peppercorn
Franz Von Peppercorn
3 years ago

People aren’t going to come around on the trans issue. More likely it will cause a huge split. A recent survey by pinknews showed broad support for self identification but opposition to people not needing a doctor’s cert. And support for the trans person to not have to live in their preferred gender was minimal. And support was there for segregation in sports.

So people believe it in the abstract and not reality.

Feminists are already split. I don’t understand to be honest why political parties are so obsessed.

Gerry Quinn
Gerry Quinn
3 years ago

There’s a politeness issue and an ontology issue. Many might be more amenable on the first if there were fewer demands that they concede on the second.

Annette Kralendijk
Annette Kralendijk
3 years ago

As in your right to self identity does not negate anyone else’s right to recognize science and live in reality.

William Gladstone
William Gladstone
3 years ago

So basically bash the trump supporter and their English/British counterpart cos the church going conservatives are lovely and stuff. Of course most of those in the church are far closer to the rich woke elite left these days.
Tony Soprano like most of the mob aligned with the left, they were not at all social conservatives…erm casino’s and strip joints and affairs and murder and extortion etc etc and they are far more likely to favour the massively corrupt democrats imho.
So If the Mob and the traditional church going social conservatives are mainly on the left along with the woke elite, what do the trump supporters and their version of Social Conservatism that Ed was smearing actually stand for?
Laissez faire individualistic Liberalism and reason with an innate sense of meritocracy and fairness at an individual level. Its not difficult, it is being a fair and decent human being that is lost on the elites (who obviously want to keep their elite status and muddy the waters and smear to do so)

Chris C
Chris C
3 years ago

Those who are familiar with criminals (I’m not) occasionally comment that they tend to lean to the right. They are, after all, looking after Number One without concern for moral values, and what could be more Conservative than that?

Duncan Hunter
Duncan Hunter
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

You’ve just described Tony Blair to perfection.

Annette Kralendijk
Annette Kralendijk
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Prisons are chock full of conservatives. Lol

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago

Why Do you ”Have to be” Right or left .I prefer standing as An Independent ,No whips Or Ascending the ‘greasy pole” Would you call Jim Hacker; New Labour or Tory?

Daniel Goldstein
Daniel Goldstein
3 years ago

So on the one hand, cultural conservatism is natural, on the other it’s immoral and lacks vision. I quite enjoyed this article until I got to the end.

Chris C
Chris C
3 years ago

“….liberalism, an entirely novel worldview that relies on people thinking way beyond their clan, to far more abstract levels of society — even to humanity in the general.”
Worth thinking about that.
And of course, some issues – the global environment spring to mind – can only be understood globally. It’s actually self-interest to do so, even from the narrow interest of our tribe, but the Right has a tendency to oppose anything which doesn’t involve “othering” other groups and winning at their expense that it can’t recognise the self-interest involved in tackling problems for the benefit of everyone. One of the reasons why the Right has made itself so unpopular with the young (whatever ‘young’ means – I’m definitely still young myself so it must mean everyone under 60) is its refusal to engage with that, and take refuge in ludicrous attempts to deny science. Boris Johnson gets it but Donald Trump didn’t.
 

Dick Lawrie
Dick Lawrie
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

What an awful lot of words. It was much simpler in the 50s -queen, God ad country.

Daniel Goldstein
Daniel Goldstein
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Possibly also a reason they are much more likely to be opposed to electoral reform. The status quo is very much in their self-interest (not that Labour haven’t also opposed it for similar reasons).

Richard Pinch
Richard Pinch
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

an entirely novel worldview that relies on people thinking way beyond their clan, to far more abstract levels of society

In 212AD the Roman emperor Caracalla decreed that every free man in the Roman empire was a Roman citizen. At almost exactly the same time, under the Han dynasty, every citizen of the empire was free to become an official working anywhere in the empire. So of the 250 million people in the world at the time, about half lived in two empires whose functioning was fundamentally reliant on “people thinking way beyond their clan”.
And yet neither of these empires would have recognised “liberalism”.

Last edited 3 years ago by Richard Pinch
simon taylor
simon taylor
3 years ago

“accept pornography, homosexuality, drug use, legalised gambling”, they dislike attacks on their country, the rapid cultural change brought about by immigration and an elite, urban caste who clearly despise them.
 bravery, helping your family, helping your group, returning favours, deferring to superiors, dividing resources fairly and respecting others’ property.
Well, according to Ed West, I appear to be a “barstool” conservative, and while I can see why Tony Soprano is guilty of “moral hypocrisy”, I`m not sure why Ed thinks I am.

Andre Lower
Andre Lower
3 years ago

My $0.02: The current battle between “left” and “right” is not related to what people in each group value – unsurprisingly, everyone loves their family, realise the value of motherhood, agree that people should work to obtain what they desire, etc.
The battle is over what is true and what is not. Misinformation for political advancement has created a world where actual values matter less than what you chose to believe. Especially about those you were groomed to identify as “the enemy”.
The regression to “I shall only care about people I know personally” is tribalism in its worst, and the adherents somehow believe there is nothing to lose in this approach – as of course the people they know must be better and more deserving of respect/care/attention than everyone else, right?
Tribalism is the seed for every single war in history – and it is painful to see that people don’t learn from history.

Daisy D
Daisy D
3 years ago
Reply to  Andre Lower

To only one of your points, I don’t see the Left highly valuing either family or, most particularly, motherhood. In fact, the Left has been happy to delegate the job of parents to the State and endows the workplace w/far more status than motherhood.

Steve White
Steve White
3 years ago

So, let me get this right, according to you, “barstool conservatives” (cultural conservatism) allow for sin and vice in culture, and “real conservatives” (social conservatives) are more about the abolition of those things, and you particularly start talking about middle-class “Romans Catholics” representing these “real conservatives”, the “well educated” ones with the “carefully cultivated conservatism”, where as the other side is just natural to all cultures, looking out for me and my own…
Okay, first off, you’ve setup a false dichotomy, as sort of prison of two ideas. I will mention Martin Luther here, which you might despise being that you have elevated Roman Catholicism as you most probably are one. Where his position was that every man is free to go to hell in his own way. In other words, Christianity was not a world moral transformation movement, but about salvation and eternal life based on the saving work of Christ alone, where the consequences were indeed self and world transformation, but not the goal of Christianity. The fruit (good works) was not the chief goal, but simply a witness (really the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer) to the genuineness of the work of God in the movement itself.
This is where Trent failed, because though Rome had many moral reforms in its Counter Reformation, ultimately Roman Catholicism (like all the other world religions) is a religion of self-salvation with the help of God. 
America also had its abolition movements that were the product of Lutheran Pietism (which Luther would not have approved of) , which were the fruit of theological liberalism. These early 20th century temperance movements, and abolition movements were for moral good, but are not the direct mission of the Christian church. The scope of the mission of the church is the Great Commission. (Mt 28:18-20)
Likewise, Christ did not condone any of the racism, social-injustice, slavery, and other evils of the culture of His day, but He did not seek to overthrow it though instituting secular moral reforms either. His kingdom is not of this earth. It does not mean He is not over the common kingdoms of this world, but that they are not redemptive. They will end on judgement day and they have no eschatological future the way the Kingdom of Heaven, and those who belong to it (and to Christ) by faith alone in Christ alone do.
So, all that being said to say that according to you Jesus Christ would be a “barstool conservative” because he wasn’t an activist like you think only “real conservatives” are. It is a list of priorities for some of us Christians that focus on the spread of the gospel, and rely more on the work of the Holy Spirit working in the scriptures to guide believers to live lives pleasing to God. That is not our taking the reigns of whatever culture we find ourselves in, but it does not mean that we are not “real conservatives”, but that we see a different set of ultimate goals that happen to also lead to a more conservative society that you described.

Last edited 3 years ago by Steve White
matthewspring
matthewspring
3 years ago

Am I badly misreading this piece? It seems to be saying that you’re not really a ‘proper’ conservative unless you enter into the ranks of the (pref. RC) Church.

Daisy D
Daisy D
3 years ago
Reply to  matthewspring

It’s a historical reference; give it another read.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
3 years ago

There is an old Arab Bedouin saying: I, against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I my brothers and my cousins against the world. That is jungle law. It is the way of the world when the world is thrown into chaos. It is our job to avert that chaos, to fight against it, to resist the urge to become savage. Because the problem with such law is that if you follow it, you are always fighting against someone. (NAFISA HAJI, THE SWEETNESS OF TEARS)

The problem is to delineate a view which conceded something to the above (ie. barstool conservatism), but not too much. Christianity seems as universal as Utilitarianism, but with added metaphysical absurdity. Ed West may be migrating to religion but it will prove only a temporary resting place.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
3 years ago

There is an old Arab Bedouin saying: I, against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I my brothers and my cousins against the world. That is jungle law. It is the way of the world when the world is thrown into chaos. It is our job to avert that chaos, to fight against it, to resist the urge to become savage. Because the problem with such law is that if you follow it, you are always fighting against someone. (NAFISA HAJI, THE SWEETNESS OF TEARS)

The problem is to delineate a view which conceded something to the above (ie. barstool conservatism), but not too much. Christianity seems as universal as Utilitarianism, but with added metaphysical absurdity. Ed West may be migrating to religion but it will prove only a temporary resting place.

Otto Christensen
Otto Christensen
3 years ago

Ideology is the successful mutation rather than religion.

Otto Christensen
Otto Christensen
3 years ago

Ideology is the successful mutation rather than religion.

Paul Taylor
Paul Taylor
3 years ago

I’d like to see more evidence that the Catholic church actively sought to ban copulation and marriage between cousins as a way of driving a wedge through the Western European clannish social system to increase their own influence. Not saying that it isn’t true but I can’t really take that very important point as read without further evidence.
This is an interesting article but I was disappointed at the silly reference to Tony Soprano and Don Corleone as being examples of what happens when these cousinly relationships are allowed to develope. I realise that this was written with the authors tongue wedged firmly into his cheek but, c’mon …
Look at the misery that the rest of Europe managed to inflict on one another 80 years ago. Maybe we should have shagged our cousins a bit more !
There is a widespread attempt in the media to try to pinpoint the reason that so many voted for Donald J in 2016 and, indeed, in 2020. Writers try to attribute it to a few issues but the reasons were myriad, almost as many reasons as there were Trump voters. Having in-laws in Arkansas (mostly ex-military) and some other contacts, it seems to me that a big reason has been overlooked somewhat. In 2016 many that I spoke to weren’t particularly in support of Trump but absolutely HATED Hilary. It was an anyone-but-her vote for many. Four years later these people seemed again to vote for Trump in large part because so many media commentators told them that were stupid to have done so in the first place. It was an ‘f-you’ vote as much as anything else and that, I believe, was the same with Brexit
Nice article, all in all. Keep it up

Paul Taylor
Paul Taylor
3 years ago

I’d like to see more evidence that the Catholic church actively sought to ban copulation and marriage between cousins as a way of driving a wedge through the Western European clannish social system to increase their own influence. Not saying that it isn’t true but I can’t really take that very important point as read without further evidence.
This is an interesting article but I was disappointed at the silly reference to Tony Soprano and Don Corleone as being examples of what happens when these cousinly relationships are allowed to develope. I realise that this was written with the authors tongue wedged firmly into his cheek but, c’mon …
Look at the misery that the rest of Europe managed to inflict on one another 80 years ago. Maybe we should have shagged our cousins a bit more !
There is a widespread attempt in the media to try to pinpoint the reason that so many voted for Donald J in 2016 and, indeed, in 2020. Writers try to attribute it to a few issues but the reasons were myriad, almost as many reasons as there were Trump voters. Having in-laws in Arkansas (mostly ex-military) and some other contacts, it seems to me that a big reason has been overlooked somewhat. In 2016 many that I spoke to weren’t particularly in support of Trump but absolutely HATED Hilary. It was an anyone-but-her vote for many. Four years later these people seemed again to vote for Trump in large part because so many media commentators told them that were stupid to have done so in the first place. It was an ‘f-you’ vote as much as anything else and that, I believe, was the same with Brexit
Nice article, all in all. Keep it up

Perdu En France
Perdu En France
3 years ago

This has all the appearance of a long winded explanation of the pros & cons of tribalism. Could have saved the bother of reading it. It’s a well explored subject.

Perdu En France
Perdu En France
3 years ago

This has all the appearance of a long winded explanation of the pros & cons of tribalism. Could have saved the bother of reading it. It’s a well explored subject.

Greg Greg
Greg Greg
3 years ago

So well stated. Seems like the migration away from a well articulated social conservative vision to a lowest common denominator nationalist conservatism may sound appealing in the short run, but one wonders whether it’s long term prospects are potent enough to articulate, realize and sustain a more humane civic vision for generations to come. Methinks we need a revival that cannot be constructed, only prayed for…

Last edited 3 years ago by Greg Greg
Greg Greg
Greg Greg
3 years ago

So well stated. Seems like the migration away from a well articulated social conservative vision to a lowest common denominator nationalist conservatism may sound appealing in the short run, but one wonders whether it’s long term prospects are potent enough to articulate, realize and sustain a more humane civic vision for generations to come. Methinks we need a revival that cannot be constructed, only prayed for…

Last edited 3 years ago by Greg Greg
David Hartlin
David Hartlin
3 years ago

Is it irony that authors in these pages continually refer to a post Trump era or life after Trump? He seems to highly placed in peoples awareness and far from gone.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  David Hartlin

they act as if Trump is a cause rather than a reflection or result of things already in place.

Chris C
Chris C
3 years ago

Discussions of ‘Conservatism’ on an Anglo-American site like this generate a Tower of Babel situation, because the term is understood in different ways in the US and Britain. ‘Conservatism’ in the UK has a strong relationship to the historic, and current, attitudes of the Conservative party; many British Conservatives would regard Trump cultists as riff-raff.

Marc Geffroy
Marc Geffroy
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

I am an american and was raised in a minor northeastern city with a still strong mafia presence. Though I am not ethnically Italian, I was friends with many kids from these mob families. In america by the 4th or 5th generation, Mob families are highly unstable and dysfunctional. Church attendance even by the women doesnt happen. Legal and church marriage is rare. Long term partnerships even are rare. Drug use is rampant……..any behaviors of these people that seems conservative is accidental and or vestigial. There is no theoretical or moral underpinning to it. Likening a latter day american mafioso to a true conservative is like calling a crow an eagle bc they both fly…….I worry that you brits romanticize the american mafia from watching too many movies that indeed romanticize them. Watch “Good Fellas” for a more apt description. The american mafioso that I grew up with live very desperate and tenuous middle class lives at best. I am 59 and several are already dead. None end well……..the whole point of conservatism is to end well, right?

I am a practicing christian and a small business owner that is not involved in rubbish removal. I voted twice for Mr. Trump. I am not a fan of his character or tie selection but Mrs. Clinton was worse and she drinks Chardonnay. I was quite happy with his policies and the direction that he moved the USA to. I didn’t like the constant turmoil and insult of his tweets though. The american conservative cause needs to reorient fast and we will. Fret not.

Like Hamilton, I am an Anglophile and I am saddened to watch England flounder in perpetual middling socialism. A goal of mine is to read every book that Roger Scrouton wrote. But how can Great Britain possibly cast off its Marxist ways when your schools are thoroughly controlled by ardent marxists and your upper class are mostly Marxist poseurs?

Jayne Lago
Jayne Lago
3 years ago
Reply to  Marc Geffroy

You are so right about the indoctrination of our schools and it is going to get much worse when the sex education for infants and older kids is brought in sept 21. Anyone who has grandchildren or children should investigate the diabolical material that teachers are being advised to use. Anyone who cares should look up ‘ The School Gate Campaign. We are very short of backbone in our country, which will be much needed if anyone is going to be brave enough to tackle the Marxists.

Campaign