by Finn McRedmond
Monday, 25
July 2022
News
09:22

Ukraine Government issues blacklist of ‘Russian propagandists’

The list includes a number of prominent Western intellectuals
by Finn McRedmond

The Government of Ukraine has issued a blacklist of individuals who they judge to be “promoting Russian propaganda” — including a number of prominent Western intellectuals.

The “Center for Countering Disinformation,” established in 2021 under Volodymyr Zelensky and headed by former lawyer Polina Lysenko, sits within the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine. Its stated aim is to detect and counter “propaganda” and “destructive disinformation” and to prevent the “manipulation of public opinion.”

On July 14th it published on its website a list of politicians, academics, activists that are “promoting Russian propaganda” — including several high-profile Western intellectuals and politicians. Republican Senator Rand Paul, former Democrat Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, military and geopolitical analyst Edward N. Luttwak, realist political scientist John Mearsheimer and heterodox journalist Glenn Greenwald were all included on the list. The list does not explain what the consequences are for anyone mentioned.

The exact criteria for inclusion are also unclear, although next to each name the report lists the “pro Russian” opinions the individual promotes. For example, Edward Luttwak’s breach was to suggest that “referendums should be held in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions”; Mearsheimer’s breach is recorded as him saying that “NATO has been in Ukraine since 2014” and that “NATO provoked Putin.”

The relevant intellectuals were surprised and concerned to be included on a government blacklist in this way. UnHerd contacted Luttwak (an occasional contributor), Mearsheimer and Greenwald for comment.

Edward Luttwak strongly rejects being labelled a Putin acolyte. “From 24th February, day one of the war” he told UnHerd, he has “relentlessly argued that not just the US, UK, Norway and others should send weapons to Ukraine, but also the reluctant trio of France, Germany and Italy.

“I have personally lobbied defence ministers of NATO countries” to send more weapons as part of the war effort, “I am not exactly Putin’s most faithful agent,” he added.

“What happened is this. I said that there is a victory party and the victory party is not realistic… Their idea is if Russia can be squarely defeated then Putin will fall. But this is also the moment when nuclear escalation becomes a feasibility. It is a fantasy to believe Russia can be squarely defeated. In Kyiv they have interpreted this stance as meaning I am pro-Russia.”

 

American political scientist and expert in international relations John Mearsheimer also told UnHerd how disappointed he was to be labelled in this way:

“When I was a young boy, my mother taught me that when others can’t beat your arguments with facts and logic, they smear you. That is what is going on here.

“I argue that it is clear from the available evidence that Russia invaded Ukraine because the United States and its European allies were determined to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border, which Moscow saw as an existential threat. Ukrainians of all persuasions reject my argument and instead blame Vladimir Putin, who is said to have been bent on conquering Ukraine and making it part of a greater Russia.

“But there is no evidence in the public record to support that claim, which creates real problems for both Kyiv and the West. So how do they deal with me? The answer of course is to label me a Russian propagandist, which I am not.”

 

Heterodox journalist Glenn Greenwald also rejected being called a Russian propagandist, telling UnHerd it was “standard McCarthyite idiocy”:

“War proponents in the West and other functionaries of Western security state agencies have used the same tactics for decades to demonize anyone questioning the foreign policy of the US and NATO. Chief among them, going back to the start of the Cold War, is accusing any dissidents of spreading “Russian propaganda” or otherwise serving the Kremlin. That’s all this is from the Ukrainians: just standard McCarthyite idiocy.

“The Ukrainians have the absolute right to pursue whatever war policies they want. But when they start demanding that my country and my government use its resources to fuel their war effort, then I, along with all other Americans, have the absolute right to question that policy or to point out its dangers and risks. I don’t care at all about Ukraine’s attempts to shut down debate in our country by smearing journalists and politicians who are questioning US/NATO policy as being Russian propagandists. That tactic is as inconsequential as it is cheap, tawdry, and discredited.”

The Ukrainian Government have been approached for comment.

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David Barnett
David Barnett
25 days ago

If you do not understand your enemy, how do you expect to devise a viable strategy to move his behaviour in the direction you want?
If you do not understand how the tools at your disposal work, how do you expect to use them appropriately?
It is clear that our entire ruling class in the west does not understand Putin. Neither does it understand the difference between money and the essential things that one hopes money will buy.
The hubristic delusions of our mid-wit rulers threaten our entire civilisation. Our mid-wit rulers’ behaviour reminds me of the French Establishment in the Dreyfus Affair – make an error of judgement and then double-down rather than admit error and correct course.
I think America still has the resources to recover from this insanity. Western Europe’s case may be terminal.

Last edited 25 days ago by David Barnett
Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
24 days ago
Reply to  David Barnett

Spot on David.
The “West” = good
Russia = bad
My wife is from Crimea. I know the long-standing issues between Ukrainians and Russians extremely well from talking to many of her friends – she has friends from Sumy, Mariupol and Kherson as well as Moscow and Sevastopol.
It enrages me that Ukraine has allowed itself to be used by truly evil people like Victoria Nuland and Chrystia Freeland in order to further their own malign ends.
I can barely stomach dedushkas from Kiev and Poltava being blown to bits in trenches because America can’t bear that Russia needs its own sphere of influence too.

John Tokalenko
John Tokalenko
24 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

My grandmother was born in Odessa, and would find this conflict between brother ethnic groups to be abominable.
This war was entirely avoidable, and Russia tolerated the “regime change” of “the West” via the overthrow of the President of Ukraine in 2014, for 8 years, before being compelled to act in the face of Zelensky’s plan to genocide those in the Donbas who refused to submit to his criminal regime.

martin logan
martin logan
24 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

Putin’s Russia and Europe are incompatible, just as Napoleon, the Kaiser and Hitler were incompatible with Europe.
You have to choose.

Andrzej Wasniewski
Andrzej Wasniewski
20 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

If you want Russia to have its own sphere of influence, go and live there. I lived in Russian sphere of influence. You have np bloody idea what you are talking about. Stalin deliberately starved 3.5 millions Ukrainians to death, they were eating their own dead children. They remember exactly like Jews remember holocaust. And maybe those dedushkas prefer risking to be blown into pieces than live in your sphere of influence. What an arrogant drivel.

John Clark
John Clark
23 days ago
Reply to  David Barnett

I think I understand the difference between the DC elites and Putin well enough. One of them is my enemy. The other is some bald guy in Russia.

Last edited 23 days ago by John Clark
ashlennard
ashlennard
25 days ago

“Disinformation” here seems to have been weaponised as it is an easy way to discredit and devalue opinions that go against the grain. Is it seriously so radical to try and get both sides of the story in order to try and ascertain what is true and what is false? Neither pro-Russian, pro-Ukrainian, pro-Chinese or pro-Western medias are infallible and they all have their own biases and spin that will affect not only what is reported on but what isn’t.

Last edited 25 days ago by ashlennard
John Clark
John Clark
23 days ago
Reply to  ashlennard

“The list does not explain what the consequences are for anyone mentioned.” That people can listen to them if they want something other than the regurgitated garbage available on the mainstream media?

Ashley Lennard-Kelly
Ashley Lennard-Kelly
23 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

Labelling these commentators as “Russian Propagandists” is in itself an attempt to discredit and devalue their opinions. It is true that there aren’t any consequences for these people but I fear this could easily change especially if adopted by the US Or UK.

Last edited 23 days ago by ashlennard
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
25 days ago

I strongly suspect that when your cities are being razed to the ground, your population being bombed, violated, tortured and disappearing into Russian territory, you may have a somewhat “concentrated” view of opinions expressed from the comfort of living rooms and lecture theatres.
Whilst we hold dear the freedom of expression of opinions, there are real and present dangers to those suffering under the onslaught. Just as the UK would’ve called out opinions which offered succour to Nazi Germany as our population was bombed, i’m inclined to cut the Ukrainian leadership some slack.
That’s not to say we should curtail our opinions, not in the least. I’m simply saying the reaction is understandable, given the dire circumstances. Ultimately however, the wider battle continues to retain the right to express opinions without fear of consequences beyond disagreement or ridicule.

Last edited 25 days ago by Steve Murray
Iris C
Iris C
25 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

You are living in the past. You no longer need military weapons to bring a country to its knees. Technology has made cyber attacks and other computer-generated disruption more effective, but the USA has a vast military machine and army to keep employed and so threatens destructive retaliation if they are not respected . Bully-boy tactic!

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
25 days ago
Reply to  Iris C

I can recommend a holiday in Odesa to have a look at who’s employing bully-boy tactics.

Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

2.5.14
Go see what happened in Odessa on that fateful day;
(217) Roses Have Thorns (Part 6) The Odessa Massacre – YouTube

A TM
A TM
24 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

Steve Murray is a NADSI sympathizer.

Last edited 24 days ago by atthemurph
A TM
A TM
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

A day at the beach in Odessa sounds nice, just like it was on Sunday for thousands of people who live there.

Roswell Grey
Roswell Grey
23 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Perhaps, Zelensky shouldn’t have requested to join NATO in January, again, after having been warned numerous times that it’s a security risk to Russia allowing intermediate-range nuclear weapons to be placed within a few hundred miles from Moscow, since Trump dropped out of the INF Treaty. What you see in Odesa, are western weapons and harpoon missiles threatening the Black Sea fleet after Ukraine vowed to take out the fleet. Facts matter.

Tom Watson
Tom Watson
24 days ago
Reply to  Iris C

Lol, even Russia doesn’t believe in that version of the Gerasimov Doctrine any more. Everyone has a theory about 5GW until the Katyushas open fire.

David Courage
David Courage
24 days ago
Reply to  Iris C

Putin is not lobbing hard drives at Ukraine.
Control-AltDelete will not stop russian artillery

Ray Mullan
Ray Mullan
25 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

This same Ukrainian government has been bombing the blue blazes out of its own cities in the Donets Basin for the past eight years, so let’s not get on a high horse about all that.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
25 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

I’ll get on an even higher horse and ask you to prove that isn’t anything other than fake news.

Ray Mullan
Ray Mullan
25 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Really? Fake news? I do not doubt you could do your own research if you cared to look into the matter but here is an interesting piece of background from the eve of this fiasco.
Any further questions, talk to Hunter Biden or “the Big Guy”. I’m done here.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
24 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

Thought not.
I did my research a long time ago, from both sides of the conflict. And of course you’re done here, having been outed as a propagandist.

Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

If you have truly done this, you would be more reticent in your cheerleading for white supremacists and literal nazis

Rick Deckardov
Rick Deckardov
24 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

Yeah and literal Nazis . are Putin nazis. and Russian Army. theybehave like Nazis in 30s. No diffrence

Ray Mullan
Ray Mullan
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

… a propagandist.

For sauce!
You are not a nice person at all, Sir.

David Courage
David Courage
24 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

thank god your done here

Rick Deckardov
Rick Deckardov
24 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

go google something. for example, they googled about the GIRKIN detachment, about Russian mercenaries with weapons who freely crossed the border of Ukraine and attacked the police and SBU buildings, attack administrations in Slavyans and Kramatorsk . And it started already in April 2014, when there was no military operation by Ukraine yet. SO WHO STARTED THE WAR if not RUSSIA? OR when armed people penetrate from the territory of another state and seize entire regional centers, THE CENTRAL AUTHORITY SHOULD NOT RESPOND TO THIS IN YOUR WAY?

Roswell Grey
Roswell Grey
23 days ago
Reply to  Rick Deckardov

You twist the facts. There was a violent putsch that took the lives of 177 Ukrainians. The protests in Odesa were met with 500 neo-NAZIS from a soccer game, armed with baseball bats, forcing the anti-putsch protesters into a building which was thereafter torched. 42 protesters were burned to death, and those wanting to escape the flames jumped out of third story windows, splatting on the ground to be subsequently beaten to death with baseball bats The taking over of government buildings was IN RESPONSE to the violent putsch, one they did not side with. Kiev sent tanks and troops to Mariupol to squash protests and shot dozens of protesters in the legs. The newly formed neo-NAZI AZOV Regiment was sent to attack the separatists, who declared themselves independent of the new putsch regime run Ukraine. The Russians didn’t come until 3 months later, in August, after thousands have already been slaughtered. Here it is from the archives:

https://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/gallery/nato-images-show-russian-forces-in-ukraine/index.html

They drove back the AZOV and Ukrainian attackers and established a no-man’s land, through which civilians have been attacked from the western side, on numerous occasions over the last 8 years.
When the government in Kiev wanted to implement the Minsk Agreements, 1,000 strong armed army of AZOV members went to Kiev, and threatened to remove parliament if they allow the population of the Donbas, the right to vote. Here’s the evidence from Ukraine:
https://korrespondent-net.translate.goog/ukraine/3685301-azovtsy-pryhrozyly-fyzycheskoi-raspravoi-nardepam?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp&fbclid=IwAR3KmpL7uMCy_uE21sntanCdvtqSbtYkovjd39MnDJ5T59Cxx9gqGtNKjwY
When Zelensky took over he was supposed to end the fighting and abide by the Minsk Agreements, but this is what he did, instead, from his 2019 first press conference, that lasted 14 hours.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1538918876309770242/pu/vid/640×512/_QkU7QRtoWL_PEVa.mp4?tag=12

There are indisputable facts in any news story and then you have two sides to every story and then there’s the truth. Without being allowed to get both sides of the story, you’ll never get to the truth.

Last edited 23 days ago by Roswell Grey
Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Watch the documentary series Roses Have Thorns on youtube.
It covers in great detail the events of Nov 2013 to July 2014.
The actions of the Ukrainians are almost as repulsive as those of their puppet-masters in Washington.
Enjoy your twerking for neonazis.

Rick Deckardov
Rick Deckardov
24 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

go see something other than your Kremlin propaganda. And you will understand that the real Nazis are sitting in the Kremlin.
Enjoy your twerking for your pupet masters -Putin neonazis.

Roswell Grey
Roswell Grey
23 days ago
Reply to  Rick Deckardov

Your comment is evidence that you’ve already lost the argument, otherwise you wouldn’t come up with tu quoque-isch red herring logical fallacies, followed by ad hominems. Since your facts are lacking in support of your position, you resort to smearing the messenger, rather than address the message.

E. L. Herndon
E. L. Herndon
19 days ago
Reply to  Roswell Grey

Thank you for trying to rescue the ton of this very reactive and increasingly bitter dialogue. It has often occurred to me that as long as I’ve lived, the West has had a useful bogeyman, the Ivan under the bed. Please, Nanny, turn on the light.

Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Seriously, are you trying to claim the Ukrainian army HAVEN’T been bombing the Don Basin these past 8 year ?
I just want to be clear that I’m not reading the words of someone who literally knows nothing about anything.

Rick Deckardov
Rick Deckardov
24 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

Seriously, Stop repeating false Kremlin narratives, on the example of MARIUPOL, how RUSSIA bombs cities. And she did it in a MONTH. what 8 years of bombing are we talking about, if not one of the cities of Donbss is even close to what RUSSIA did. What kind of destruction in 8 years are we talking about? Just take and compare DONETSK and Mariupol. in 19-20 years, according to UN data, 18 people died in the Donbass. Most of them are military. In one month of the aggressive war unleashed by Russia, HOW MANY ? TENS OF THOUSANDS. and +350 Ukrainian children. You are stupid, or just Putin’s bot if you do not notice such things.

Andy E
Andy E
20 days ago
Reply to  Rick Deckardov

>according to UN data, 18 people died in the Donbass
this is simply not true. UN issued a few reports on Donbas, I’ve seen some.

Puss nBoots
Puss nBoots
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

watch any of Lancaster’s videos going back years…just pick 2 or three…ON THE GROUND interviews and coverage of the Donbas side.. will open your mind.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbjTWVaRx6jMN5ZYgbqe2_w

Rick Deckardov
Rick Deckardov
24 days ago
Reply to  Puss nBoots

Lancaster is well know Russian propagandist, what else could he show besides lying and hushing up Putin’s crimes?
Go google A US Navy sailor is a Putin propagandist in Ukraine – Task & Purpose (taskandpurpose.com)

Greg Buser
Greg Buser
23 days ago
Reply to  Rick Deckardov

You flagrantly display your intellectual dishonesty to claim anything that goes against the corporate media/government narrative is “Russian propaganda.” There is no shortage of indisputable evidence of the 8 year Ukrainian assault on the civilian population of Donbas over the last 8 years. The fact is Ukraine agreed to a framework for ending the conflict, when they signed the Minsk Accords, but instead of holding up their part of the agreement, they chose to delay in order to build up their military capability to crush the separatists by force.

Roswell Grey
Roswell Grey
23 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Are you saying that calling millions of Ukrainians terrorists is appropriate, because they don’t side with a putsch regime. So you’re are basically going to lie about a well-documented 8-year old war, and just pretend that 14,000 people didn’t die?

Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
24 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

Spot on Ray.
Maidan, fomented by the old PNAC claque, unleashed the ugly forces of white nationalism in Ukraine, using these thugs as the stormtroopers of a new “European” Ukraine that had no use for the working class shakhtars of the East with their coal dust and pride in the Red Army.

Louis Anthony
Louis Anthony
24 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

Why were they being bombed? They got bombed AFTER Girkin invaded the country with his Russian fascist loons and slaughtered innocent civilians and politicians like Volodomyr Rybak or the 16 year old soccer player for wearing Ukrainian colours.

The Ukrainian government shelled in response, occupied territories but used an incredibly soft touch compared to Russia which razed Donbass Cities to the ground. During Zelensky’s reign 50 civilians died in warfare, most due to mines. Educate yourself.

Roswell Grey
Roswell Grey
23 days ago
Reply to  Louis Anthony

Why is it acceptable to you, to kill 177 people, to achieve your aims of siding with the EU, and Volodomyr Rybak is a valid reason to kill 14,000 more people. Bombing and shelling civilian cities with artillery is not typically done when one person is murdered, at least not in civilized countries. The millions of the Donbas were already called terrorists by Kiev before Rybek was murdered. Try again.

David Courage
David Courage
24 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

Glad to see you at least admit the “Donets Basin” belongs to Ukrain.

Rick Deckardov
Rick Deckardov
24 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

Stop repeating false narratives, on the example of MARIUPOL, how RUSSIA bombs cities. And she did it in a MONTH. what 8 years of bombing are we talking about, if not one of the cities of Donbss is even close to what RUSSIA did.

Mary Shine
Mary Shine
23 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

What kind of lie is this?! Past 8 years? Get the hell out of Ukraine and no one will bomb anybody!

Roswell Grey
Roswell Grey
23 days ago
Reply to  Mary Shine

So, Ukrainians born in Ukraine should get out of Ukraine because they don’t agree to be ruled by a putsch regime, or don’t meet your ethnic requirements? What makes you think that every single person in Ukraine agreed with an illegal putsch, or that they even should? How ignorant is that?

Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Unless you shared the same concerns for the people of the Donbas who have been living in basements for the past 8 years because of their “population being bombed” by Ukrainian forces, spare me the crocodile tears.

Louis Anthony
Louis Anthony
24 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

Why were they being bombed? They got bombed AFTER Girkin invaded the country with his Russian fascist loons and slaughtered innocent civilians and politicians like Volodomyr Rybak or the 16 year old soccer player for wearing Ukrainian colours.

The Ukrainian government shelled in response, occupied territories but used an incredibly soft touch compared to Russia which razed Donbass Cities to the ground. During Zelensky’s reign 50 civilians died in warfare, most due to mines. Educate yourself.

Mary Shine
Mary Shine
23 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

My relatives live in Russian-occupied Donbas for the last 8 years and the last 6 years were fine, much better than right now when Russians invaded again and took our men for cannon fodder. You are a troll who knows nothing.

Andy E
Andy E
20 days ago
Reply to  Mary Shine

I wonder if labeling somebody a “troll” makes yourself a “troll” automatically…

Alexandros Antoniou
Alexandros Antoniou
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I suggest you read what happened during the Ukrainian coup of 2014 and the rise of nazis since then and stop the nonsense you are spouting.

John Tokalenko
John Tokalenko
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Your CIA/DoS/Zelensky regime talking points are laughable.
The war is 100% on the Zelensky regime and its patrons of “the West,” the latter who lit off this conflict in 2014 by overthrowing the President of Ukraine.

Cleo Sauldog
Cleo Sauldog
24 days ago
Reply to  John Tokalenko

Found the paid Russian troll

Roswell Grey
Roswell Grey
23 days ago
Reply to  Cleo Sauldog

Why’s that, because he’s right? If Zelensky would’ve agreed not to join NATO there would be no invasion, but what are facts.He informed the UN Security Council several times last year, that he considers them joining NATO to be an existential threat, allowing intermediate-range nuclear weapons to be placed within a few hundred miles from Moscow. Why would Zelensky disregard these warnings,unless it was an excuse to wage a proxy war?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/biden-didnt-accept-putins-red-line-on-ukraine-what-it-means.html

Here’s Zelensky, who was supposed to end the conflict in the Donbas, at his first press conference:
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1538918876309770242/pu/vid/640×512/_QkU7QRtoWL_PEVa.mp4?tag=12

bar snack
bar snack
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

The ukrainian army is using nursing homes(UN confirmed), kindergartens and schools as human shield.The ukrainian army is racist terror bombing Donetsk since 8 years with cluster Tochka and MLRS systemNATO ukraine is an existential threat to Russia, they wanted to make a deal for months before launch.

Carlos Danger
Carlos Danger
24 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

One can understand the Ukraine government creating a blacklist of Russian propagandists, but it’s not a helpful development. From what I’ve understood, most of the people on the list are Russians living in Ukraine. The consequences to Westerners of being on the list are negligible. The consequences to Russians in Ukraine may be very serious.
The war in Ukraine is to some degree a civil war as much as a Russian invasion. Ukraine had cracked down on ethnic Russians in Ukraine, banning Russian books and other media and putting in the Constitution its intent to join NATO and the EU. Not to mention backing out of the Minsk Accords it had signed.
If Ukraine wants to continue to poke Russia in the eye it may get a worse response than if it took a different tack. The world is not going to join the war. Ukraine is on its own. That, like it or not, is reality.
By the way, I could not find this blacklist anywhere. Is Henry Kissinger on it? If not, why not?

martin logan
martin logan
24 days ago
Reply to  Carlos Danger

Of course, factually that is simply incorrect.
Almost every European country is contributing to Ukraine’s defence. And for good reason. From a geo-political point of view, a Russian defeat is the sine qua non of Europe’s future.
Either Russia survives in its present form, or Europe does.
You can’t have both Putin and Europe.
You must choose.

Victor Whisky
Victor Whisky
23 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Strange that the English and US intentionally firebombed civilian cities, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent German civilians in each city they firebombed. The English never admitted to it, even when questioned by a concerned cleric who got the word from a source in Switzerland. The English always insisted they were bombing military targets. There is one speech by Hitler where he read an ultimatum telling him to get out of Chechoslovakia. He replied, England that occupies India, England that occupies Burma, England that occupies Egypt, England that occupies Ceylon…on he went naming all the territories England had filched by force.
The strategic reason why England chose to bomb civilians, the Germans had moved production underground and their night bombing raids had no effect at all, in fact German production increased. Factories, however need workers and hence the intentional bombing of civilians, it is the elimination of the work force. The US did the same in Vietnam, bombing Vietnamese farmers to prevent raising a crop to starve the Vietcong. And Churchill, after the war called the Russians barbarians, when in fact he had no more regard for human life than Stalin. However, Russians did not fire bomb German civilians on mass as Churchill and Roosevelt had.
More recently, the atrocities committed by the English and US military against civilians in Iraq, have been swept under the rug. They were made pubic by Julian Assange and for doing so, for exposing those atrocities, for telling the truth, England has decided to punish him. So please go look in your mirror as to whom is the real barbarian.

Lord Rochester
Lord Rochester
20 days ago
Reply to  Victor Whisky

‘The British’, my dear.

You ought to know that, given the Scottish spelling in your moniker.

The British (we) absolutely did bomb Dresden and so on, and that was a terrible thing. It was total war, sadly, and history tells us that Germany did some fairly rotten things, too… So did Stalin, by the way, he spent most of his time killing millions of his own people. And the US, of course, dropped the bombs, too. Iraq was bad, too, granted. Not a war of annexation, though: a big difference there.

But, here’s the thing, seventy-seven years after the horrors of WWII we’ve all tried to learn from those horrors and avoid their repeat in the present. Germany and the UK are pretty united on that.

Your entire post is tasteless whataboutery designed to distract from children being blown up right now by pointing to when it happened in the past. Have a word.

Trevor Hodgins
Trevor Hodgins
23 days ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

You are ridiculous fool. When America invaded Iraq and Afghanistan were people against the invasion called “Anti-American” or “Iraq propagandists”?? MILLIONS died over 20 years in those wars YET never was “disinformation” mentioned anything like this done. Your comment is trash and you only “pretend” to relate because Ukrainians are white and you foolishly think it makes you a good person. You are a ridiculous fool – just as delusional as everyone else. A waste of space. We all deserve nuclear holocaust. Ever single one of us and I pray it comes soon. If would be an absolute relief. 

Last edited 23 days ago by Trevor Hodgins
Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
25 days ago

Disinformation is a vastly overused word that says more about the user than the person accused of spreading it. What Ukraine is objecting to is not information but opinion. As there is no such pejorative word as disopinion they use disinformation as if it was an objective description of the value of someone’s opinion.

I see nothin wrong or dishonest with these 3 writers saying that while Putin is a thug it is dangerous to provoke a thug who has nuclear weapons. The retired head of MI6 said the same thing. Why is that opinion “disinformation “?

I am rather saddened that Ukraine has used personal attacks on people who they disagree with. They are, and should remain, better than that.

Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
24 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Roman

They’re not.
Since 2014, they’ve reverted to their 1942 incarnation. And it’s not pretty.

martin logan
martin logan
24 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

And sadly for Russia, they seem to be winning.

John Tokalenko
John Tokalenko
24 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Roman

Ukraine is not objecting to anything. The Zelensky “government” is composed of pathological liars and con-men. They do not represent the Ukrainian people, but rather their patrons in “the West.”

Edward O'neill
Edward O'neill
24 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Roman

It’s the same as the idiots that call you racist if you speak out against ANTIFA and BLM, you’re a racist. They can suck eggs as far as I’m concerned.
We’ve squandered 60 billion dollars plus on that cancerous Zelensky and his band of thieves and as we pay for this stinker and his minions to rip us off they give us the middle finger.
Screw those pasty faced a holes. We’ve spent more on this clowns war than the total defence budgets of 4 NATO countries and yet he keeps squawking for more. I’m an American taxpayer and I say let the Europeons pay for this debacle from here on out. Enough already!
I’m no Putin stooge nor am I a bigot! The people that pigeon hole other folks in those two catagories are the real bigots and stooges and they can all kiss my good old American, you know what?

Last edited 24 days ago by Edward O'neill
Andrew S
Andrew S
24 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Roman

By “provoke” I takle it you mean “resist his demands” or “help those who resist”. Reflect on the number of totalitarian regimes with nukes (plus Iran, almost there).

If not, what is to stop a nuclear at=rmed nation from demanding and taking everything they want. Reflect on

Ray Mullan
Ray Mullan
25 days ago

As late as last Autumn, every establishment rag from The Guardian to Forbes was convinced that Volodymyr Zelenskyy and his puppeteer, the oligarch Ihor Kolomoyskyi were a fine pair of shady crooks.
I believe that Zelenskyy is at best a fat poseur in his ready–for–action, Fidel–style fatigues. At worst, I believe that he and his master are a pair of rotten crooks still. Just look at who they hold their begging bowl out to …
Thank heaven for Mearsheimer and Greenwald — they should be proud to have ruffled their feathers.

Last edited 25 days ago by Ray Mullan
Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
25 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

Exactly. And did you see the Irish MEP Mick Wallace stand up in the European so-called Parliament and state that NATO has been an extremely aggressive force over the last 20 years or so? It was the biggest truth bomb to hit the European so-called Parliament since Farage dropped them on a regular basis.

Ray Mullan
Ray Mullan
25 days ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Don’t get me started on NATO.
Better still, listen to what the journalist Michael Tracey had to say about the Annual NATO Summit in Madrid this summer. (Skip the first three minutes of Thaddeus Russell’s intoduction unless you can lip read — the sound is off.)

Ian Johnston
Ian Johnston
24 days ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Him and his equally scruffy sidekick are ace.
Zelensky is undergoing mass-firings of his intelligence chiefs today.
Unless the CIA can smuggle him out in the diplomatic pouches, he is more than likely to go the way of the Ceaucescus.

David Courage
David Courage
24 days ago
Reply to  Ian Johnston

Excuse the scruff, there is a war on.
As for his safety, your man putin has been trying to assassinate him since day one. (BTW He refused to be smuggled out. If you remember the famous line: “The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride,”)

David Courage
David Courage
24 days ago
Reply to  Ray Mullan

Perhaps you are not aware, but Zelensky is wearing IN-Action fatigues thanks to the illegal and immoral invasion of Ukraine by der Führer Putin. If President Zelensky is ruled by anything, it is his obvious and demonstrable love of Ukraine and for freedom.

Andy E
Andy E
20 days ago
Reply to  David Courage

Of course, but he is an idiot. He was to lose two provinces and now he is facing to lose another two or three. And exit to the sea. Too steap for love to my taste. Or maybe there are some morons thinking Ukraine can win this war? How? By attempting to take Moscow and get nuked?

John Miranda
John Miranda
24 days ago

The Ukrainian Military and Ukrainian Government have been untruthful about essentially everything they have stated since February 24th when the Russian Special Military Operation in Ukraine began.

Some things they have stated such as “The Ghost Kiev” story have been so ridiculous they have been laughable.

Other things they have lied about such as down playing the number of Ukrainian Military personnel killed and wounded in the conflict have mislead everyone to their complete failure in this conflict.

The Ukrainian Military is being systematically annihilated. Their casualties have exceeded 50,000 (a very conservative estimate) and literally might have even exceeded 100,000 now.

Ukraine should have been attempting to negotiate peace months ago. This is a conflict that they have no possibility of winning. Propaganda press releases are meaningless on the ground.

David Werling
David Werling
23 days ago

Because the first thing a democracy does is censor their opponents.
The trajectory of liberal democracy in the West is not just disheartening, its frightening. It isn’t the centrists or those right of center who are calling for censorship; it is the left. Liberals who in the past have taken a stand for the disenfranchised and the marginalized, are now the very people who are disenfranchising and marginalizing folks who’s only “crime” is presenting a view point other than the the mainstream talking points. How is this anything other than a spiral down into tyranny?
The “McCarthyite idiocy” is no longer belongs to the Right. It is now owned by the Left, which brings modern liberalism more in line with Stalinism than the “democracy” the Left constantly trumpets themselves as the sole progenitors. If we allow the Left to redefine “democracy” as Stalinism, we are doomed to a horrific future.

Terry M
Terry M
25 days ago

“I argue that it is clear from the available evidence that Russia invaded Ukraine because the United States and its European allies were determined to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border, which Moscow saw as an existential threat. Ukrainians of all persuasions reject my argument and instead blame Vladimir Putin, who is said to have been bent on conquering Ukraine and making it part of a greater Russia.”
It’s both, really. Ukraine as a potential NATO member simply feeds the traditional Russian paranoia and inferiority complex. The West pushed this possibility too hard. Biden could have said: “Ukraine can make up their own minds on applying for NATO membership, but I don’t see it happening any time soon.” Which would have cooled the situation a bit.
Biting off bits of Georgia, Chechnya, and Ukraine gives Russia a buffer against Western cultural and philosophical invasion that could undermine Putin’s rule.
Foolishily, Putin thought that after grabbing Crimea he could overrun a weak-appearing Ukraine (as widely reported in the western press) while a demented SloJo looked on. Fortunately, many countries have stepped up to help and are reconsidering their defense needs (just as Trump warned).

Last edited 25 days ago by Terry M
sergiy movchan
sergiy movchan
24 days ago
Reply to  Terry M

Which would have cooled the situation a bit.

or not. i can’t believe people are trying to analyze what putin says instead of checking his actions.

he’s saying whatever he thinks brings more supporters for his case in the west (playing the victim of NATO, making up more stupid reasons to invade ukraine).
the problem is that he’s lying so no, i don’t think hearing “but I don’t see it happening any time soon” (which in fact was said more than once) would help…

John Tokalenko
John Tokalenko
24 days ago
Reply to  sergiy movchan

While everything Zelensky spews out has been highly exaggerated or outright lies, I haven’t seen any overt “whoppers” from Russia. The chorus of lies from Kiev, Brussels, and Washington would be hilarious if not so deadly for so many innocents.
John Bolton’s recent admission about the US conducting foreign coups was a timely and damning admission. But remember, “the West” stands for “democracy” and a “rules-based order.” LOL

G P
G P
24 days ago
Reply to  Terry M

It was the 2014 illegal coup that legitimated all illegal actions from then on…..and now we get cats and spilled milk diplomacy from the Ukrainian nationalists backed by corporate war mongers and redundant north Atlantic schemers!

Last edited 24 days ago by G P
John Tokalenko
John Tokalenko
24 days ago

I am looking forward to the collapse of the Zelensky “government,” so this professional “victim” / grifter regime can no longer stand in the way of bringing the war to an end.
Nearly everything Zelensky or his “government” has claimed has turned out to be highly exaggerated or outright false.

Johnny Ramone
Johnny Ramone
24 days ago

This is an unforced error by Ukraine. They REALLY need to not do this.

(Zelenskyy is sophisticated enough to understand why, I doubt this order came from him).

Mike
Mike
23 days ago

Interesting to see peaceniks and a guy who seeks more transparency to prevent money laundering on the list.

David Werling
David Werling
22 days ago
Reply to  Mike

Being a “peacenik” these days means you’re a MAGA. Funny how things have turned around so radically from the prevalent leanings of liberalism in the 70s to the warmongering liberals of today.

Alexandros Antoniou
Alexandros Antoniou
24 days ago

Clearly it’s a list in case a wacko wants to do a terrorist attack

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
20 days ago

The very fact that the Ukrainians published such a list says its leaders are not serious or even smart . Why on earth would you set yourself up for criticism at a point when every ounce of your energy should be addressing the conflict and not creating new enemies ? Perhaps this is the old stupid corrupted impulses of Ukrainian Society bubbling up? They’re thrilled though with a superfluous, inane Annie Lebowitz – Anna Wintour fashion spread in Vogue Magazine, which in effect shows how really unserious the current Ukrainian regime is.

Last edited 20 days ago by Cathy Carron
Lord Rochester
Lord Rochester
20 days ago

Wow, this BTL is like being in the Upside Down. Like, farcically so. Whilst I subscribe to Unherd to hear differing viewpoints, the 30 or so St. Petersberg employees (judging by the voracious downvoting/going out their way to blame all but Russia for the carpet bombing of Eastern Ukrainian cities), could spend their time more wisely in another publication with a wider readership if they want to genuinely twist people into thinking any of this tendentious nonsense is even remotely believable outwith this BTL echo chamber.

V – cue 30+ downvotes

Last edited 20 days ago by Lord Rochester
Dominic A
Dominic A
19 days ago
Reply to  Lord Rochester

Thank you. A motley crew of CPGB members still fighting the good fight; Cozy Bears provocateurs; and narcissistic armchair analysts motivated by fantasies of being so smart that only They can see The Real Picture. Comments on unherd are generally good quality, but they tend to decline into swivel-eyed lunacy whenever about Trump or Putin.

Angel (Mr.) Gomez
Angel (Mr.) Gomez
9 days ago

Here’s an interesting quote from Thomas Jefferson, the first one spotting “fake news”. This quote is relevant to this day; we can replace in this quote the term “newspaper” with “mainstream media” and it’s up-to-date.

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day. I really look with commiseration over the great body of my fellow citizens, who, reading newspapers, live and die in the belief that they have known something of what has been passing in the world…

…I will add, that the man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them; inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”

(Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Norvell, June 14, 1807)

martin logan
martin logan
24 days ago

Sorry, BOTH sides have been shelling each other over the last 8 years.
I would actually agree with Luttwak, that a real referendum in the breakaway regions would have solved the crisis.
But Putin would never have settled for that, because then he would have lost Ukraine permanently. And without it (and the rest of the republics of the old Russian empire), Russia is just a mid-sized, rather poor state on the outskirts of Europe. It does have nukes. But so do Pakistan and North Korea.
This was his last throw of the dice to avoid galling obscurity and permanent decline.
And he lost.

John Tokalenko
John Tokalenko
24 days ago
Reply to  martin logan

A referendum in the Donbas and most of eastern Ukraine would have been in favor of Russia, like the referendum in Crimea. “The West” and its puppet regime in Kiev would never tolerate that, even though that is exactly what the principles of the United States Declaration of Independence advocate.

Alexi O
Alexi O
24 days ago
Reply to  John Tokalenko

So because a referendum wouldn’t go your way you don’t want democracy now. Interesting…

martin logan
martin logan
24 days ago
Reply to  John Tokalenko

Thanks for conceding my point. Appreciate it!
As I said, Putin could never have agreed to a referendum–because the rest of Ukraine would have been entirely out of his grasp.

John Miranda
John Miranda
24 days ago
Reply to  martin logan

Referendums are going to be held in every province that Russia has liberated.

All of these provinces are overwhelmingly ethnic Russian.

If you think that the people in these liberated provinces do not wish to become part of Russia I have a bridge to sell you…

ken rogers
ken rogers
24 days ago

Zelensky needs to get slapped around, publicly, by Donald Trump, on Pay per View. Then hand him over to Vlad

Last edited 24 days ago by ken rogers
Johan Grönwall
Johan Grönwall
19 days ago

Once again I find myself in troll city here on Unheard.

Heri Meza
Heri Meza
24 days ago

According to the useful idiots Ukraine invaded Georgia in 2008 and is threatening the Baltic countries.

Akos Magyar
Akos Magyar
23 days ago

“But there is no evidence in the public record to support that claim” ( That Russia has claims over Ukraine)
Yes there is…

Read Putin’s demented dissertation that he published in June of 2021

Akos Magyar
Akos Magyar
23 days ago

Tulsi is the one on this short list who did spread some Russian propaganda, or potentially did when she alleged that Ukraine’s bio labs were designing bio-weapons to kill Russians.
That was never proven or even indicated by any reputable party
It was purely in Russian propaganda sources.

David Werling
David Werling
22 days ago
Reply to  Akos Magyar

Gabbard clarified those remarks. She was speaking to biolabs, funded by the United States, that were at the time operating in a war zone. She questioned why they still existed at US tax payer expense, and why they hadn’t been shut down at the time of the invasion. None of that is untrue. She made it clear that she wasn’t stating or insinuating that they were bio-weapon labs, or that they were making bio-weapons.

Last edited 22 days ago by David Werling
Vlad Ginsburg
Vlad Ginsburg
25 days ago

I don’t now about highly respected (by many people including me) Mr. Luttwak, but his plan to stop the war that was published in Unherd was very strange. I mean how such a clever strategist can suggest such unrealistic plan? It was unrealistic because it contains at least 4 issues that could not be resolved at all (starting from “how to convince Putin to have fair referendum”). So, I believe it was not plan per ce, but a starting shot in campaign to force Ukraine to soft capitulation. So, I agree that Mr. Luttwak is not a friend of Ukraine, though I cannot call him “russian propagandist”.
On the other hand, Mr. Mearsheimer is definitely one. His reasoning that the situation is provoked by NATO now is very obvious wrong. It’s about destroying Ukraine or at least about huge land grab, not about NATO. What Putin and his henchmen (Lavrov, Medvedev, Patrushev etc) say is very clear, and their deeds (fast integration of occupied territories to Russia, preparations for “referendums”) are quite fit to their words. So, it demands a serious intellectual dishonesty to continue say about NATO’s fault.
The saddest thing is what happens to Mr. Greenwald. I extremely respected his bravery, integrity and professionalism, he proved it all during last 5 years, so, I struggle to understand him now. It’s fine to have a different opinion. Mr. Greenwald raises very good questions (like “why should USA should have a deal with one bloody tyrant (prince of Saudi Arabia) to handle another one (Putin)? Is one is better than another?“) which should be answered. But… he promoted Dimitri Simes, semi-official Russian propagandist, publisher of journal The National Interest, who lives in USA. I would bet (no proves, just my opion) that Mr. Simes is FSB agent (this is shame, because parents of Mr. Simes were expelled from USSR for resistance to KGB and promoting human rights. Their son decided to cooperate with Russian authorities instead). Sorry, Mr. Greenwald, but what Mr. Simes writes is not “other opinion”, it’s purely Putin’s propaganda. And helping Mr Simes to promote it making you “useful idiot”.

Last edited 25 days ago by vladimirgin
Dermot O'Sullivan
Dermot O'Sullivan
25 days ago
Reply to  Vlad Ginsburg

You are correct about Mearsheimer. The others I don’t know.

Johnny Ramone
Johnny Ramone
23 days ago
Reply to  Vlad Ginsburg

All irrelevant. Blacklisting them gives them credibility, right or wrong. Ukraine knows better, especially since they are soliciting the support of the Free World. We aren’t siding with Ukraine because they are Ukraine .. we are siding with them because it is Russia that does this kind of thing. We aren’t going to pick a side between two Russias.

David Werling
David Werling
22 days ago
Reply to  Vlad Ginsburg

His reasoning that the situation is provoked by NATO now is very obvious wrong.”
No, it’s not obvious at all! After two and half decades of pointless NATO expansion, how can anyone of sound mind disagree? The moral legitimacy of NATO ceased to exist in 1992. Any other raison d’tre for NATO is at best to disrupt Russia’s control of the Eastern European energy market at the behest of OPEC, or at worse, pure racism against the Russ people. There’s simply no other explanation.

Dominic A
Dominic A
19 days ago
Reply to  David Werling

“After two and half decades of pointless NATO expansion, how can anyone of sound mind disagree?”

Putin’s invasions – Chechnya, Crimea, Georgia, Ukraine, and the rush for other ex SSRs to join NATO rather prove that NATO expansion was a)needed and b) insufficient.

I am wondering on explanations for your on-point KGB stance …

Last edited 18 days ago by Dominic A
martin logan
martin logan
24 days ago

The real point is that all those critics got it wrong, and are getting it wrong. Moreover, complaining about how unfair Maidan was won’t fix Putin’s current problems.
Each day the number of Russian artillery strikes grows smaller, while the number of Ukrainian artillery pieces grows. Astonishingly, The Russian Air Force was never able to even control Ukraine’s skies. Moreover, Russia cannot even replenish its much depleted man-power, so the number of soldiers is actually dwindling.
But as pro-war Russian critics complain, Putin refuses to change course. No mobilization. No new weapons. And now he seems to be placing all his trust in…gas (??).
As one critic says, this is Russia’s “Mukden Moment”–the lost battle in 1905 that eventually led to Russia’s disintegration in 1917.
No wonder the Kazakhs will stop using cyrillic. By the end of the century, no one will.

Last edited 24 days ago by Martin Logan
John Miranda
John Miranda
24 days ago
Reply to  martin logan

You are honestly delusional. Russia has won this conflict and they do control the airspace over all areas of Ukraine where they have their military.

M C
M C
25 days ago

I think rather than this being a list of Russian propagandists – it is moreso a list of people who have fallen for various pieces of Russian propaganda.

Last edited 25 days ago by M C
David Courage
David Courage
24 days ago
Reply to  M C

I would agree in principle, but if they then propagate the dis-information they are in fact propagandists (Regardless of their motivation.)

harry storm
harry storm
25 days ago

All of them blame NATO and Ukraine for Putin’s invasion. Quite right they be identified, with the possible exception of Luttwak.

Last edited 25 days ago by Vilde Chaye
John Tokalenko
John Tokalenko
24 days ago
Reply to  harry storm

This war started with the overthrow of the President of Ukraine in 2014, by the US “government.”

David Courage
David Courage
24 days ago
Reply to  John Tokalenko

The throwing off of the shackles of domination by the people of Ukraine had nothing to do with the US Government.