July 31, 2020 - 7:00am
Joe Rogan is in trouble with the gaming community. In last week’s episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, one of the most popular podcasts in the world, Rogan drew a comparison between taking up jiu-jitsu as a hobby and taking up gaming. Speaking as an accomplished martial artist and MMA commentator, he suggested that while jiu-jitsu might offer a person physical fitness, excitement, confidence, and new career opportunities, gaming offers nothing but a dead-end:
It’s no secret that self-described ‘gamers’ are disproportionately young and male. And looking down the list of last year’s most popular games, it’s striking to see how many provide a vivid simulation of hyper-masculinity, allowing the player to pretend to be a soldier, gunslinger, warrior, gangster, or heavily armed survivor in a post-apocalyptic hellscape. All fantasy scenarios that provide violence, peril, and (apparently) immense satisfaction for the young male brain.
Which makes perfect sense from an evolutionary perspective. These kinds of games offer what the evolutionary psychologist Diana Fleischman has called ‘fake fitness’, that is ‘subjective cues of success without real-world ramifications.’ Players immersed in the game feel as though they are living in a world closer to the one in which our early ancestors evolved, a world in which young men who displayed strength, courage, and ingenuity in the face of hardship and danger were more likely to survive, reproduce, and pass on their genes.
But the vast majority of Westerners don’t live in that kind of world anymore. We live in societies that are far safer, richer, and more comfortable than those of the past. Modern men are no longer routinely called upon to hunt for food or wage war against invading enemies, not when we have access to supermarkets and the benefit of a small, professional army. Although violence between young men still blights many communities, in historical terms the rates are very low indeed, so much so that junk food, alcohol, smoking, drugs, and ‘deaths of despair’ now pose a far more lethal threat.
For some young men, gaming plugs a psychological gap left by the loss of a certain kind of masculinity, a loss sometimes blamed on feminists, who are accused of creating a feminised society that leaves no space for men. But in fact, the so-called ‘crisis in masculinity’ is a consequence, not of feminist campaigning, but of societal affluence — a miracle of the modern world, but one that has inadvertently produced a lot of frustrated and aimless young men, now directing their pent up energy towards a hobby that offers fake fitness but which, unfortunately, given the addictive nature of ‘limbic capitalism’, is more likely than other hobbies to become all-consuming, damaging the gamer’s health and repelling potential sexual partners.
Feminists often make the mistake of dismissing this problem, suggesting that we should simply reject masculinity in all its forms, both positive and negative, and offer nothing in its place. But in his comments last week, Rogan offered up one solution, and a far more realistic one, in the form of martial arts — a fake (that is, ritualised) form of violence, but not a fake form of fitness, since the discipline, progress, and sense of purpose offered by this kind of physical challenge is absolutely real.
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SubscribeSo as a kid, was I not allowed to read novels either? What about playing boardgames? How about TV and movies? None of them got me fit, but I thought then, as I do now, that there was more to life than physical fitness, and that physical skills are not the only skills.
Joe Rogan enjoys his forms of physical activity, and fair enough, he is allowed to enjoy it. But not everyone does, and not everyone has to. Despite the faddish moral panic, computer games are not very different to their predecessors.
Good point. I’m 55 and play (and write mods for) video games. I also enjoyed board gaming with friends and going to the gym before the apparently endless lockdown. Everything in moderation.
What is it with this article and the other one about Harry Potter fans? Has Unherd attracted people who have no joy in their life.
Now I’m not saying all gamers or all Harry Potter fans are well rounded members of society, fully fit and sociable. Of course not, but to imply the opposite that we are all unsociable, unfit, loners stinks of jealosy.
Nobody is forcing any of you negative souls from enjoying yourself how you see fit so why whine about what other people do? These are activities that cause ZERO harm to anybody except ourselves (different argument there).
Given the current climate I find it extraordinary that what little joy is left for us is being attacked. Can I remind folks of what you cannot do today what you could do 1 year ago and given the latest announcements nobody will be doing for at least another year possibly 2 or 3 :
No group sports
No spectator sports – football, rugby, hocky, tennis etc
No singing (honesty What the F)
No pantomimes (Xmas is coming)
No plays or cinema (well unless you enjoy quarter full soulless halls)
No Xmas markets
No Concerts
No normal pub behaviour, laughing and joking with strangers
No large meals out (ie birthdays, anniversaries etc)
NO BREATHING in the park without the mask nazis attacking you
Now we can’t “escape” in our studies without being commented on.
Good point.
The “crisis in masculinity” seems to be more a fantasy of feminists than a reality. It actually reveals more about the worldview of a certain kind of feminist than reflecting a “crisis” among young men, especially in light of the research which shows that young women are the ones currently suffering from anxiety and depression more than their male counterparts, mental problems that seem to be growing in parallel with men abandoning their traditional gender roles, eschewing marriage in favour of video games.
Feminism has always suffered from a dark undercurrent of misandry, fuelled by the resentment some women seem to feel about not being born male. Perhaps that also explains the belief in the “patriarchy”, an invisible, omnipotent presence that has kept women from reaching their full potential throughout history, simultaneously a cultural construct and, inexplicably, a trans-historical phenomena reaching across time and culture to oppress women. Like the devil, the patriarchy is the source of original sin, the perfect scapegoat for female failure.
What better way to get even than by depicting men as somehow being in “crisis” because some of them like to play video games rather than date women.
“What better way to get even than by depicting men as somehow being in “crisis” because some of them like to play video games rather than date women.” MGTOW is now a quite common lifestyle choice, some because they are the ‘undateables’ but many more because they’ve been ‘bitten’ and avoidance of further entanglement and problems is easier and safer than being bitten again. Video games are thus for many a distraction/time filler and at the moment a great way for making social contact.
I’ve made contacts around the world during lockdown whilst gaming, despite being old, an essential worker and married, after a shit shift the games are a good decompression activity, especially when SWTSMBO is on a different shift. It also enables non-stress contact and chat with my sons in other parts of the country whilst gaming ‘with’ them.
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I’m really not sure video games are the only waste of time in our modern society.
Blogging is very much the pamphleteering of the modern world. (Marchament Nedham would have loved it)
This is hardly an either/or binary. My son (16) plays a lot of video games – but he mostly chooses co-operative, strategic war games. He has developed both a sound knowledge of strategy as well as history. Doesn’t stop him from fighting (almost) for real at the local fencing club. Like anything else, a balance is generally positive, an overuse generally negative. There is perhaps an unnecessary level of over-analysis here.
I don’t think these young men have lost their masculinity, what they have lost is society’s need for their strength, aggression and willingness to face danger on behalf of their families and communities, which is the essence of masculinity. The young men are just as masculine as they’ve ever been and gaming is an addictive outlet for that self expression.
Joe Rogan is probably right in what he says, good for him and I hope young men listen.
Don’t worry. We only grow half the food we need in this country, and we import the other half.
If anything ever blocks the imports you will see supermarkets become arenas for strength and aggression all right.
It’s the toilet rolls people really care about though.
I posted this this morning and it still hasn’t been published. Maybe taking the links out will help.
I definitely see his point, and have had to pull myself out of games occasionally.
That said, some gaming communities, specifically the modding community, do offer something positive. Firstly, they offer a community where there is a total ban on politics. I cannot tell you how many times I have burrowed myself into that silly community just to escape the even more silly ramblings on the BBC and elsewhere. Such people can be quite well-read. It’s common to have conversations about history or life-in-general with people that are surprisingly well-adjusted. “Playthrough videos” can offer interesting entertainment from people that happily avoid talking about politics…. where else can I find such a thing? No wokism at all. (Ironically, as I watch such stuff on the exercise bike, they can also improve my fitness, but that’s by the by).
Secondly, the modding community is a ruthless weeder out of people with minimal commitment and talent, which means that the best modifications of games can very well made. Quality of life improvements on existing games by modders can extend the life of such games, meaning that more are sold, and the original developer gets more revenue for minimal effort. Modding a game requires creativity, logic, hard work, and alot of late-night inspiration.
(It isn’t all basement dwelling either. I know at least three modders from Canada and Europe that met up in Edinburgh at one point to discuss ideas)
Such people can work on the same game for decades, yet generally have stable jobs as they grow older. Some make revenues from being a modder, putting up videos of playthroughs or 3d modelling sessions, etc. It’s quite relaxing to see them slowly putting a model of a castle or ship or whatever together, as they discuss the finer points of what they are doing.
Finally though, I am of the opinion that the better made games are increasingly the one art form that isn’t succumbing to the sterility affecting our civilisation. We don’t yet have an influx of games equivalent to the stale “middle-aged writer having a mid-life crisis” that infest literary fiction, or the “dull Cannes winner” films that populate the international section of HMV.
Stuff like “Spec Ops, the Line” or “The Last of Us”, are extremely well written, have a coherent plot (well, for the latter one anyway), and are entertaining games that carry a moral message. The Last of Us Part II has one of the best storylines outside of any medium in the past 20 years, in my opinion. Earlier games also had a level of sophistication, from “Alpha Centauri”‘s subtle pro-Judeo-Christian messages, to “Papers, Please”, a game about life in a crumbling dictatorship. Games have serious problems, and might actually have some responsibility for the school shootings that have blighted America, but I hope that their better nature can also be seen by people.
@unherdlimited-960e22c062e54ee98c07ce83a5e39cff:disqus ““ UnHerd has a serious glitch which causes it to have two versions of every comments section. One is the main article, and another is a copy. The copy has “?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3″ at the end of the URL. The copy is accessed by clicking on some links from the UnHerd Daily emails, rather than from the main website. So it may be that your comment was made on the copy article, not on this, the main article.
I’ve noticed that. One of my comments had two different replies, dependant on how you navigated to the comments section. Strange.
I contacted UnHerd about it and they said they would look into it, but nothing has been done.
Surely there’s nothing wrong with gaming in moderation, it’s more creative and active than sitting, watching TV.
I don’t know what was in Joe Rogan’s mind and I’m not about to listen to the whole podcast, though I have listened to parts of others and I like him, but I’m guessing that he has men’s interests at heart, and is aiming his comment at those who spend too much time gaming for their own good, that’s all.
I watched on online playthrough of The Last of Us Part II while on the exercise bike last week. It was gripping. Lost weight as well.
Given his vitamin D hobby horse I’m surprised Joe wasn’t suggesting that the kids be outside in the sun instead of playing computer games. Although you can probably play these games outside these days.
You’ve been able to play computer games outside since the Game Boy at the beginning of the 90s, and now with smartphones it’s even easier. I used to even get a lot of exercise playing the Ingress augmented reality game.
Some of this is just so much hype.
As a human race we have certain characteristics which have proved beneficial to society.
One was for young men to feel indestructible and hence better at hunting & fighting.
The other side of the coin was for women to feel maternal and hence want to have babies and care for children.
Or in other words, in general, the men provided food & safety, whilst women provide the home.
What has changed is that now the state has taken over the role of providing food & safety, women have now decided that the benefits of men are outweighed by the disadvantages of them.
There has not been such a change benefitting men, hence a lot of young men at a loose end!
On another point the 80/20 rule is one of those curious ratios that apply to nearly all businesses – it was true in the engineering business I worked in.
80% of the business came from 20% of the customers – nothing to do per se with alcohol or gaming.
It is also a bit of a stretch to blame capitalism for alcohol consumption mankind has wanted that pleasure from as soon as they could make it. Some have too much, but most do not; it is nothing new or anything to worry about as it is not different from the past.
Lastly, I was encouraged to read as a child, now I can become engrossed in a book and ignore everything else. Is this a form of addiction and should I blame my parents?
TBH, excessive reading is not preparing you for many lifepaths apart from masturbation and suicide.
[See Jon B’s comment if you don’t get the joke.]
Good point about affluence emasculating men. However to say feminism has had no part in it as well? Yes, I’d say 1st/2nd wave feminism toughened men up well, as they accepted women’s strengths but still on their own male terms. However the 3rd/4th wave has certainly emasculated them, with its insistence that men accept the narrative that masculinity is toxic.
It sounds as if you have accepted feminism’s version of both history and the present, which is a mistake I think.
Being a feminist is like being a Marxist, it depends on a series of myths that have no basis in reality, it’s like putting on a pair of spectacles that belong to someone with very poor eyesight.
Of course feminists seek to emasculate men, if they can then persuade them to believe they’ve succeeded even better. Don’t you believe it.
That was an interesting take. And it was said by a woman, no less! (although perhaps even on Unherd I may now be crucified for assuming a specific gender is connected to a female name. Don’t forget your pronouns next time.)
In the most recent YouGov poll, 2018, only 26% of UK women claimed to be feminists, the majority of them were aged 18 – 30.
You know, most women in the UK are not feminists, the most recent YouGov poll in 2018 found only about 26% of women claimed to be feminists, admittedly that was before the hysteria of #MeToo took off, nevertheless they are a minority, powerful though.
Yes I heard that too, and that many women who formerly called themselves “feminist” have been put off by the fanaticism of 4th wave feminism. Recently my sister and her daughters asked me to confirm I was a “feminist”. It felt like being brought before the Inquisition, which was enough to make you refuse the label even if you believed you were. I didn’t buckle under the interrogation but I’ve probably lost quite a few uncle points. More importantly I felt bad about disappointing my delightful nieces, which really p****d me off.
You have my sympathy, but It’s possible that your arguments will be remembered in a good way ultimately. Experience of life tends to change minds.
The problem with gaming is that it provides just enough challenge to make it seem worthwhile, while being much easier than real life. Once you get used to the rewards of gaming, the hard work of real life becomes less and less attractive, as the rewards are much more difficult to achieve.
Alternatively it’s a nice break from the stresses of life and most people have no problem discerning fantasy from reality, as they already do with movies and tv.
One could as well decry the point of reading a novel or watching a film. The best modern video games are very convincing world-builders that provide an astonishing sense of adventure and can be moving and inspiring experiences. In fact, books and films are more ‘passive’, in that you do not shape the experiences and ultimate destiny of your character. Moderation in all things, as my old headmaster used to say!
I definitely see his point, and have had to pull myself out of games occasionally.
That said, some gaming communities, specifically the modding community, do offer something positive. Firstly, they offer a community where there is a total ban on politics. I cannot tell you how many times I have burrowed myself into that silly community just to escape the even more silly ramblings on the BBC and elsewhere. Such people can be quite well-read. It’s common to have conversations about history or life-in-general with people that are surprisingly well-adjusted. “Playthrough videos” can offer interesting entertainment from people that happily avoid talking about politics…. where else can I find such a thing? No wokism at all. (Ironically, as I watch such stuff on the exercise bike, they can also improve my fitness, but that’s by the by).
Secondly, the modding community is a ruthless weeder out of people with minimal commitment and talent, which means that the best modifications of games can very well made. Quality of life improvements on existing games by modders can extend the life of such games, meaning that more are sold, and the original developer gets more revenue for minimal effort. Modding a game requires creativity, logic, hard work, and alot of late-night inspiration.
(It isn’t all basement dwelling either. I know at least three modders from Canada and Europe that met up in Edinburgh at one point to discuss ideas)
Such people can work on the same game for decades, yet generally have stable jobs as they grow older. Some make revenues from being a modder, putting up videos of playthroughs or 3d modelling sessions, etc. (https://www.youtube.com/c/C… It’s quite relaxing to see them slowly putting a model of a castle or ship or whatever together, as they discuss the finer points of what they are doing. (https://www.youtube.com/wat…
Finally though, I am of the opinion that the better made games are increasingly the one art form that isn’t succumbing to the sterility affecting our civilisation. We don’t yet have an influx of games equivalent to the stale “middle-aged writer having a mid-life crisis” that infest literary fiction, or the “dull Cannes winner” films that populate the international section of HMV.
Stuff like “Spec Ops, the Line” or “The Last of Us”, are extremely well written, have a coherent plot (well, for the latter one anyway), and are entertaining games that carry a moral message. The Last of Us Part II has one of the best storylines outside of any medium in the past 20 years, in my opinion. Earlier games also had a level of sophistication, from “Alpha Centauri”‘s subtle pro-Judeo-Christian messages, to “Papers, Please”, a game about life in a crumbling dictatorship. (https://littleconservative….
Games have serious problems, and might actually have some responsibility for the school shootings that have blighted America, but I hope that their better nature can also be seen by people.
Yes, they are more or less a complete waste of time. Think what you are NOT doing: you are not getting fit, physically coordinated, learning a practical skill such as woodwork or building or mechanics or electronics and you are becoming addicted to all the flashing lights and loud noises; these have been carefully crafted and fed to you by people who want your money and ultimately, your soul. You do not experience nature: there is no birdsong or wind on your face. It’s all fake, fake, fake. Social skills? Forget it. And women think you’re an idiot, which actually you are. TBH, excessive gaming is not preparing you for many lifepaths apart from masturbation and suicide. Something different. Off-screen. Would be better. Not drugs.
This is an outdated, nonsense view of the genre. Plenty of women create and play games these days. Plenty of couples meet through games.
They *do* help hand-eye coordination and reaction times, and many are more engaging and well written than film or television.
I played a lot of games when I was a kid. Continue to do so now. I’m a well paid FinTech consultant and have a happy life with my partner, who also games.
You, on the other hand, sound like you have unresolved anger issues towards people who have different interests to you.
An ad hominem attack is not an argument, nor in any case do you have enough information about me personally to draw such sweeping, if not insulting, conclusions. In my view, the gains in hand-to-eye coordination are at best marginal compared to the vast benefits of other, more traditional, physical activities. Yes, it’s an outdated view from a world where we still were connected to some extent to nature and the lessons that the experience of it brings. This is compared to the nightmare, dark, Orwellian high-tech world of now, in which only human obsessions matter and which creates a few happy, if deluded, winners and vast, oppressed masses of addicted losers.
There’s that anger again.
Of course, because we know that you can’t play games and do anything else with your life, ever. By the way, if it takes me a while to reply to your next message it’s because I’m just popping out for a quick 10-mile lunchtime ride in the sunshine. I’ll probably play some games later on though, just to annoy you.
More ad hominem attacks. If you don’t know what these are, look them up.
Well aware ta, and they’re not the only content of my posts. My arguments are there, plain to see, but I’ll spell them out again for you –
Women both make and play games these days, it’s an outdated and sexist view to say “women think you’re an idiot”.
Playing games doesn’t doom you to a life of failure, I earn in the top 1% in the country, and play lots of games. I know a lot of other successful people that play games. Many that don’t too, of course.
Playing games doesn’t mean you can’t also go outside and do physical activities in nature. The idea that gamers *only* game is as wrong as saying that people who watch tv never do anything else.
Your views of gamers and game playing are wrong. Please note that this statement is not an ad-hominem, it is not an attack on who is saying it or how, it is a pure statement about your views and arguments – they are factually incorrect and form an exaggerated caricature.
By the way, if you want more calm, factual rebuttals, perhaps try not starting out claiming that something relatively innocuous leads to a life of “masturbation and suicide” and literally tries to steal your soul. Doesn’t come across as very balanced.
Don’t blame me for your inappropriate reactions to my statements. However, as an aside, I would point out that just because someone earns a lot of money, that doesn’t of itself make them a success as a human being: I would have thought that was obvious but apparently not.
Moreover, you attribute to me statements that I have not made: I never claimed that all gamers only game, as you imply. In fact, I am talking about the large numbers of mainly but necessarily males of a formative age who become entrapped in compulsive gaming and more generally screen use. This is where most of the damage is done. The fact you personally may not have fallen into this particular addiction says nothing about the socially and psychologically vulnerable people who have or the severe cost to them.
It’s hardly an indicator of failure though, is it?
Of course you did, you said that people who game are “not getting fit, physically coordinated, learning a practical skill such as woodwork or building or mechanics or electronics”, when really you have no idea what else they do.
And if there is evidence of these socially and psychologically vulnerable people being harmed by games, feel free to present it, but it just looks to me like more of your unfounded luddism.
If only you had thought of your own advice from the second comment before writing the first one.
Your logic is flawed: no other participant was or could have been insulted, since no-one else had commented at the time I wrote my first comment.
Most of the people who work in tech, who create and build everything modern people use, from Joe Rogan’s microphones to whomever coded this platform, are most likely gamers. IMO the dismissal of gaming is often made by those who do not build technology for a living.
There should be a distinction between people who play game for fun and those who are deeply addicted. I play World of Warcraft which I know is a complete waste of time, but I take great pleasure in seeing my character progress through the game world. On the other hand I have a wife, dog, job, study and am also five hundred pages into writing my book.
Games and entertainment are crucial to a mentally healthy society. Even the ancient Lydians used games to escape the hard times their society faced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…
However, like most things, moderation needs to be exercised.
The idea the our life purpose revolves around trying to have sex as often as possible is a hilarious myth of the evolutionary psychology pseudoscience. However not surprising when secularist try to deny the supernatural nature (reason and will) of our being and reduce humans to just being material substance.
The purpose of man is to protect and service through the exercise of virtue, which involves using the intellect to control the appetite. The failure of modern Western man is that secularist have promoted the opposite: That our purpose is to pursue pleasure and use our intellect to justify that which feels good. It is emotions trumping reason which can be clearly seen in the woke who have perfected this belief.
As a result Morden western man has become effeminate through self gratification. Computer gaming is the effeminate lifestyle – the pursuit of pleasure instead of sacrifice for the greater good through serving and protecting others be it family, community or nation.
For a percentage of the population, video games are addictive. Arguments with an addict will not be productive in most cases. I think that the tendency to addictiveness varies person to person.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go…
I have friends that have had successful careers and families that play a lot of video games, so they’re certainly not something that has everlasting deleterious effects.
For a percentage of the population, video games are addictive. Arguments with an addict will not be productive in most cases. I think that the tendency to addictiveness varies person to person.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go… <– National Institutes of Health article (USA)
I have friends that have had successful careers and families that play a lot of video games, so they’re certainly not something that has everlasting deleterious effects.