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May 17, 2024 - 4:30pm
A month after the publication of her report into youth gender services in the UK, Dr Hilary Cass has been doing the rounds in the American media. This week, she gave an interview to the New York Times on her research, which found “remarkably weak” evidence for paediatric gender transitions.
Speaking to the NYT, she said that “the real problem is that the evidence is very weak compared to many other areas of paediatric practice”, adding, “I can’t think of any other situation where we give life-altering treatments and don’t have enough understanding about what’s happening to those young people in adulthood.”
The Cass Report cast serious doubts on the model in use in many Western countries, including the US, in which clinicians automatically affirm children’s transgender identities and recommend cross-sex medical interventions for minors. While the UK was quick to restrict puberty blockers and other interventions in light of the report, the American medical establishment has doubled down on supporting gender transitions for young people.
The Endocrine Society, which supports puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for minors, told the NYT this week that the Cass Report “does not contain any new research” that would contradict those guidelines.
Stephen Hammes, the organisation’s president, also defended its position in the Wall Street Journal last year. “More than 2,000 studies published since 1975 form a clear picture: Gender-affirming care improves the well-being of transgender and gender-diverse people and reduces the risk of suicide,” he wrote.
The American Academy of Pediatrics, one of the most vocal champions within the US medical establishment of child gender transitions, declined to comment on the Cass Report for the NYT story and instead reiterated its opposition to legal restrictions on the practice. The AAP’s 2018 statement in support of child gender transitions calls for minors to have access to “comprehensive, gender-affirming, and developmentally appropriate health care”, for doctors to advocate for laws expanding access to such treatments, and for children’s medical charts to reflect their gender identity rather than their biological sex.
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SubscribePeople making money from something tend to reject things that hamper their ability to continue making money. So what if some kids are damaged along the way.
“So what if some kids are damaged along the way.” <– Why yes, you are complete hypocrite and also failing a real life Trolley Car Problem. You almost certainly do not think medical care providers should be enslaved — which is what objecting to them charging for their time to their satisfaction is, their “making money” — and — for any person damaged by gender affirming care, almost 100 are very much helped.
You are shouting you think those 100 deserve to instead be damaged by the law and policies you prefer.
You are a monstrous, grotesque child abuser.
With all due respect, Talia, what if you’re wrong? And even if you’re not would you really wish your condition to be shared by others, especially if it could be avoided with a few sessions of counseling? Wouldn’t most people prefer to go through life as a happy man or woman, rather than a lifetime of pretending to be one? And with all the money and time needed to invest in such a choice?
My comments here are not entirely abstract. I have had a transgender individual in my family who abandoned his children to pursue this path. I haven’t seen him for years, but what always stood out to me was his deep shame and unhappiness with his choices. His life has been plagued with physical and mental issues ever since. When I hear stories of young people transitioning I cannot help but feel sadness and pity. I rather suspect that most people feel the same way which is why there is not widespread joy at the news that some countries are reluctant to shed off transgender ideology. Perhaps it is more charitable to cast doubts about sexual reassignment surgery as expressions of care rather than that of hatred or child abuse.
“With all due respect, Talia, what if you’re wrong?” <– Then, because gender affirming care has not substantively changed for 20 years, there would be evidence I am wrong.
There is no such evidence, although it is carefully looked for. Instead, over that time frame the regret rate fell from about 2% to under 1%. You are the one not considering the implications of your being wrong.
“especially if it could be avoided with a few sessions of counseling” <– It is not possible — you stubbbornly, deliberately ignorant moron — for a physical variance in sexual dimorphism to be changed by therapy. That has never worked. It is not possible. Conversion therapy such as what you want is always only fraud. Wher do you pretend ther eis any evidence that what you think can work does or ever has. Remember, the actual disistance rate of youth who qualify for medical transition is below 5%, and generally all who do so desist do so within a few months of HRT commencing. It is not true the 80% (or 85%, or whatver, made up number is currently being pefdaled), “grow out of it”. That high figure is a falsehood.
“who abandoned his children to pursue this path” <– Horseshit — what is overwhelmingly likely is they were turned out. Told to go away if they were transgender and were or would transition. Go ahead, ask them directly.
“When I hear stories of young people transitioning I cannot help but feel sadness and pity.” <– Because you think it is better for a boy to be forced to have breasts and a period, and you think it is better for a girl to be forced to have a beard and deep voice.
“Wouldn’t most people prefer to go through life as a happy man or woman, rather than a lifetime of pretending to be one?” <– Imbecile, it is you who prefer for transgender people to go through life pretending to be what they are not.
“Perhaps it is more charitable to cast doubts about sexual reassignment surgery as expressions of care rather than that of hatred or child abuse.” <– No, it is not more charitable for a boy to be forced to have breasts and a period, and you think it is better for a girl to be forced to have a beard and deep voice.
That you think it is so proves you are a monstrous child abuser.
If an adult feels strongly that they wish to undergo transitioning with all that it entails, then I believe they should be able to freely access the necessary treatment.
To allow a child to consent to powerful medication is adult neglect of their duty to guide and protect the child. Children are vulnerable to being easily exploited and manipulated to their own detriment, and their ability to understand the implications of their decisions is limited – that’s why we don’t allow them to marry, vote, consent to sex, get a job, drive a car or enter into a contract. Although some children may remain steadfast into adulthood that they have been assigned the wrong gender – most will change their minds as they mature.
I can’t help but believe that those adults who are strongly of the opinion that children should be able to start the process of transitioning without delay, are trying to pursue their own agenda which may not be in the best interests of the child.
“To allow a child to consent to powerful medication is adult neglect of their duty to guide and protect the child.” <– No, it is abuse of a child to refuse them medical transition per WPATH protocols. It is a refusal to guide and to protect the child — it is forcing some boys to have breasts and periods and forcing some girls to have beards and deep voices. This is true to the tune of 99 times out of 100. You have no evidence to the contrary The evidence for what I write is overwhelming. The evidence for what you claim is nonexistent.
“I can’t help but believe that those adults who are strongly of the opinion that children should be able to start the process of transitioning without delay, are trying to pursue their own agenda which may not be in the best interests of the child.” <– What you claim there is equally reason to deny a child who seems fine for now, chemotherapy for the cancer the doctors only say they might have.
Talia, you are talking complete nonsense. Children are not in a position to know what they want. That’s why they are minors and not entitled to many things including, for example, voting. Children go through plenty of phases that they then grow out of. If an adult choses to transition that’s their affair. But to encourage children to do so is what is grotesque and constitutes child abuse pure and simple.
“Children are not in a position to know what they want.” <– And if it were children alone involved, you would have a point. That means you have no point.
Are you bright enough to realize why you have no point?
“Children go through plenty of phases that they then grow out of.” <– So what? Why are you quite so stupid as to think this is about a “phase” ?
Really, make an answer. Justify yourself! Being a man or a woman is no phase for anyone else, why do you pretend it is here?
“But to encourage children to do so is what is grotesque and constitutes child abuse pure and simple.” <– You are far worse. For the sake of your own moral vanity and deliberate ignorance, you want to abuse children by forcing some boys to have breasts and periods and you want to force some girls to have beards and deep voices.
Back again Talia! You seem to be extraordinarily fixated on children being permanently physically and psychologically damaged. So much so that whenever there’s an article on this issue, there you are.
“You seem to be extraordinarily fixated on children being permanently physically and psychologically damaged.” <– Avoiding it yes — the “gender critical” want to inflict it.
“So much so that whenever there’s an article on this issue, there you are.” <– You do all deserve the truth of your being child abusers shoved in your face, yes.
You are after all just a herd of them.
I just hope the world looks back a few years from now and shakes it head, just like we do when we see old ads about doctors’ recommending certain brands of cigarettes.
When Smoking Was Just What the Doctor Ordered | The Saturday Evening Post
How long until the “US medical establishment” switch to prescribing Oxycontin to calm the anxieties of these children instead ?
Don’t worry, there will be lots of lawsuits against these monster medical establishments, and the lawyers will make boatloads of money. And that is what will end this madness.
“Don’t worry, there will be lots of lawsuits against these monster medical establishments,” <– No, there will not — not any more than there have been for decades. That is because only about 1%~10% of 1% of people who medically transition feel they have anything to sue about. That means in the population of the US, there will only be 20 such new suits per year at most.
You thinking you have any excuse to feel otherwise is you being the mad one.
You seem live in a mental world wherein no one has any “excuse’ for disagreeing with your fixed self-certainties. You condemn people left, right, and center yet imagine you are on firmly on the side of tolerance and inclusion.
Those who never permit their bodies to go through puberty can’t know what they have missed as a result. The answer for most who feel they were born into the wrong body–or in the wrong time, or onto the wrong planet–is to try and get over that as best they can, with help and understanding that needn’t involve childhood surgical or hormonal invention.
The very process of passing through puberty often calms the angst and despair that many adolescents feel when their bodies begin to change. Blocking that natural transition may heighten mental health problems.
Listen to this conversation if you have the intellectual good faith and nerve:
https://www.persuasion.community/p/joyce
“You seem live in a mental world wherein no one has any “excuse’ for disagreeing with your fixed self-certainties.” <– They are not “my” certainties, and it is only the real measured world I am in. They are publicly available facts which only people of the same mental disorder as Flat Earthers contest . . .although Flat Earthers have going for them that they are not (unlike you) grotesque child abusers for the sake of their delusions.
“Those who never permit their bodies to go through puberty can’t know what they have missed as a result.” <– So what? They see around them perfectly well examples of what they do and do not want.
The answer for most who feel they were born into the wrong body–or in the wrong time, or onto the wrong planet–is to try and get over that as best they can, with help and understanding that needn’t involve childhood surgical or hormonal invention.” <– False, and quite interesting irrelevancies you threw in by way of confabulation or misdirection. “the wrong time, or onto the wrong planet”, has nothing to do with it, and you have no excuse to pretend that they do. It has never yet happened that a man has as you think is possible, been made to be content to be a woman — neither a woman been made content to be told to be a man — by being told such with any amount of variety of pressure, vehemence, or abuse. Conversion therapy never ever works, why do you pretend otherwise?
“The very process of passing through puberty often calms the angst and despair that many adolescents feel when their bodies begin to change.” <– Which has nothing to do with it. Gender dysphoria is not such angst. You have no excuse to pretend otherwise – you sort never has any facts backing you up, you only scream the lie you love as evidence.
“Blocking that natural transition may heighten mental health problems.” <– In somewhat less than 1% of the time a person seeks and receives medical transition and qualifies for it per WPATH standards of care, they regret that saying it was a mistake altogether — that is the limit at which medical transition may cause mental health problems. Helen Joyce is already well known to me to be as factlessly bigoted as you are. Until you actually have some facts backing you up none of you have anything to say worth hearing. She says nothing there which is real and relevant. You can not appeal to an authority known to me to not be honest.
“Listen to this conversation if you have the intellectual good faith and nerve:” <– You have no good faith, but you do have a lot of nerve.
Or, more likely, you are only cluelessly — by bigoted deliberately ignorant presumption — urging that some boys be forced to have breasts and periods, and that girls be forced to have beards and deep voices.
This is a link to what is known to be true and representative of transgender people, neither you no Joyce, no Cass have as yet any substantive counter-reply.
https://taliaperkinssspace.quora.com/People-are-born-transgender-they-are-not-mentally-ill-it-is-no-paraphilia-it-is-a-physical-birth-defect-no-more-a-men
I took a long glance at your linked page–where you display the same venom and contempt for disagreement that you do here– and at some of the research you provided there. I acknowledge that I don’t know much about the gender-nonconforming youth experience, and that you do seem to, from some version of a personal standpoint. I don’t think that either extreme side of the argument–not yours nor that of your extreme opponents–holds all the correct answers. I think I’m somewhere in the sensible middle ground on these issues, but I could be wrong. Can you be even somewhat wrong about any part of this, or is that an impossibility?
You confuse passionate belief for truth, and make nature itself into a fool or nonentity. But perhaps biological nature–for all its limits and still- mysterious properties–knows more about what a 12-year-old is than the developing ego of that same 12-year-old. Why make nature so cruel and stupid so often, the author of so many disastrous “misgenderings” at birth?
The physical body doesn’t encompass our whole identity, not by a long shot. Some fervent zealots seem at the same time to think bodily nature is so irrelevant, yet make bodily changes into the be-all and end-all of identity. Why do you suppose that is?
An 18 or 20-year-old will be far better equipped to change their inherited equipment–if that is still desired. Quite a few will change their minds in the intervening years.
Is part of the source of your rage that you didn’t transition at a younger age yourself? The gender affirming care you have received thus far doesn’t seem to have left you well in the head, heart, or spirit.
I hope you find more peace, love, and understanding at some point. Something that enables you to see that someone like me might indeed be mistaken or ill-informed, yet not a narrowminded, evil bigot. In other words, please turn away from some of the prejudice, bigotry, and meanness you only seem to find in other people, but never yourself.
“I took a long glance at your linked page–where you display the same venom and contempt for disagreement that you do here” <– Not for disagreement, for lies. You are a liar. You are a child abuser. You have no evidence whatsoever justifying what you claim.
“I acknowledge that … prejudice, bigotry, and” <– Everything in that word salad is without factual basis. It is what you wish were true, not what is.
There is no middle ground where it is okay to force a girl to have a deep voice and a little bit of a beard. There is no middle ground where it is ok to force a boy to have only under 100 periods or so and breasts.
“Quite a few will change their minds in the intervening years.” <– No, stop lying. This is a very simple matter of a real life Trolley Car Problem which you are flunking. Out of a random 100,000 people, there can be law and policy which results randomly and generally only with lies and dissembling by the patients involved, in at the outside 2~4 people transitioning to some degree and regretting it who say it was all a mistake — or there can be at minimum about 100 people who are forced by your laws and policies to be boys with breasts and periods and girls with beards and deep voices.
And that 2~4 is actually far more likely to literally be 1.
You justify to me the intentional abuse of the 100, compared to only accidentally harming the 1 (or 2 or 4, the nature of the problem does not greatly change).
Go ahead. Use provable facts.
I know you have none.
Who are you trying to convince Talia? You have some form of doubt in your conscience, or you wouldn’t rant in this apoplectic way.
You use skewed or speculative numbers and treat your fervent beliefs like medical facts. You dismiss or ridicule evidence that contradicts your extreme positions. What expertise do you have that enables you to reject the Cass Report wholesale?
To advocate withholding unnecessary hormonal and surgical interventions from children is not abuse; offering them too freely is likely to be. Parents have rights too, and a societal duty to protect children from themselves in certain key ways.
I’m not here to take away your adult liberties nor prevent you from speaking in a way I don’t like (like you always do).
By consensus definition and natural fact, perhaps with rare exceptions: children who have periods are girls; children who develop beards are boys.
I understand that for many there is genuine distress and agony over this. But no hormone or procedure can remove that pain, let change one’s biological sex altogether. A trans-man is not the exact same as a man. A trans-woman is not the exact same as a woman. Nature cries out this truth, and most people hear it.
You may want to silence those who disagree with you, or condemn every dissenting voice–“Abuse! Heresy!”–but your Trans Lives and Voices Matter MORE campaign is not the law of the land, nor should it be.
I wonder how many gender critical or gender skeptical people you would literally jail or condemn if you had the power.
“Who are you trying to convince Talia?” <– Those honest but uneducated, the uncommitted. You are a dedicated child abuser. You know full well you have no factual excuse for what you claim, and you don’t care.
“You use skewed or speculative numbers” <– Prove it, liar.
“You dismiss or ridicule evidence that contradicts your extreme positions.” <– There is no such evidence. In fact, you have cited none.
“What expertise do you have that enables you to reject the Cass Report wholesale?” <– Cass has herself rejected what you claim her report says. I’ll make a 2nd reply with that link, because of course comments with links disappear.
“To advocate withholding unnecessary hormonal and surgical interventions from children is not abuse” <– You can provide no excuse for your pretense they are unnecessary.
“offering them too freely is likely to be.” <– You provide no excuse for your pretense they are or have recently been offered too freely.
“Parents have rights too, and a societal duty to protect children from themselves in certain key ways.” <– The let them face responsibility in full for their child abuse. Fair is fair, right?
“I’m not here to take away your adult liberties nor prevent you from speaking in a way I don’t like (like you always do).” <– And yet, you must argue and make the precedent for taking away what you claim is a “liberty”, because either transgender people are born not made — or — there is no right to medical treatment for what you are claiming is not a medical problem.
“By consensus definition … beards are boys.” <– By a once consensus definition, where all known data and the current consensus now disagree with you. The “rarity” of people being transgender and seeking transition is apparently about 1 in 450. Prove otherwise if you are sure otherwise.
“I understand that for many there is genuine distress and agony over this. But no hormone or procedure can remove that pain, let change one’s biological sex altogether.” <– It is not for you to judge in any way, and “altogether” is nothing you should hang your hat on — lest technology pull the rug out from under your bigotry.
“A trans-man is not the exact same as a man. A trans-woman is not the exact same as a woman. Nature cries out this truth, and most people hear it.” <– Nonsense idiot, most people and a near exclusive fraction of the educated disagree with you. A transgender man is not the same as most men — but is a man in the only way which is now known to matter. A transgender woman is not the same as most women — but is a woman in the only way which is now known to matter.
“You may want … had the power.” <– There is no need to silence you, you are like a Flat Earther in that regard. With your factless proclamations of what must be true because you like it, you discredit yourself — all reading this can see and the honest will note, you have no facts backing up your opinions.
Wow!
A non-substantive reply — like your every other reply.
A substantive reply would point out facts which support you. You can’t manage it, because I am correct about this matter and you.
You are a deliberately ignorant advocate in favor of committing monstrous child abuse.
https://t.co/Kxs89nKGva
&
https://twitter.com/DadTrans/status/1781277912852766796
Hopefully “theHerd” will let facts they don’t like surface.
Haha!
And? Posts with links come and go. Mostly, they go, whether for only 24 hours or for far longer.
I note you have no apparent way to show what is said there is in error.
The assertion that only .02 percent of doctors disagree with your stance, when a much higher number are openly opposed, and many more are in understandable fear of the extreme-trans-rights lynch mob you are attempting to lead.
The insane claim that even questioning any of this is equivalent to child abuse or advocating suicide. That’s simply not factual in any way that you or anyone else has established.
As to the rest: Tell it to someone who can still hear you when you huff, puff, and scream in fury.
“The assertion that only .02 percent of doctors disagree with your stance, when a much higher number are openly opposed” <– No, they are not. Only about half of ACPeds.org members are physicians of any kind. They represent 0.02% of American doctors.
“and many more are in understandable fear of the extreme-trans-rights lynch mob you are attempting to lead.” <– There is no such mob. There are people wanting not to be abused in law and policy, and who are quite rightly intolerant of the idea that for no reason, children should abused in law and policy.
“The insane claim that even questioning any of this is equivalent to child abuse or advocating suicide.” <– There is nothing of “questioning” going on by you. Questioning has an evidentiary basis — being “gender critical” has none. Medical care which prevents suicidality is being prohibited on the basis of your false questions. You may not like that that is what you are actually accomplishing, but it is all you are actually doing. You may not like the fact those prohibitions are forcing some girls to have beards and deep voices, and you may not like the fact your ideas are forcing some boys to have breasts and periods — but that is what you are doing. That is established by the 100s of thousands of cases of successful medical transition compared to the few hunderds of “desisters”.
You may not like the fact Cass has herself repudiated what you claim her report says, and that she told The Kite Trust puberty blockers were safe and should be far more and earlier prescribed, but she did.
I didn’t attribute my own informed but far-from-expert opinions to the Cass report itself. Check my wording.
You find it convenient to reference Cass as an authority when she agrees with you, to condemn her when she doesn’t.
The notion that the normal course of natural transition is so malevolent and oppressive, and must be stopped, is quite extreme, and certainly an unproven and controversiual stance, however vocally promoted by you and some others.
Bone density and strength, for example, brought on by male puberty often never can be recovered after any long interruption of the process. The testicles may also remain undescended.
What exact age do you say is not too young for chemical or surgical transition?
Should parents even be informed?
Interesting to see how long it will take UnHerd to permit the “wrongthink” of my reply, which endangers the Herd here.
I can’t wait! I will pay for a front-row seat, a box even, to watch these mutilating monsters be brought to justice! I envision it a bit like Nuremberg 2.0. Of course, the defence will be that they were just following orders…I mean “guidelines” or whatever term they will use.
This precisely, and in the US, let’s put the blame where it primarily lies.
The Obama administration, dissatisfied with merely raising health care costs for the middle class, also decided that transsexual surgeries and cross gender hormones were “health care” that must be covered by private health insurance, which most employed Americans have, and that public health plans, which are primarily for the poor, disabled, or elderly, must cover them as well.
Most of our social pathologies, from race riots and cancel culture to castrations and mastectomies as “health care,” come from those years 2008-2016. Obama swore he would “fundamentally change America.” He certainly did.
Good to see Cass challenging the US medical establishment, and indeed identifying precisely why there’s resistance to her findings.
The US can, quite frankly, think what it likes (or go along with the strident voices instead of challenging them from within) but the scientific brilliance with which it landed a man on the moon and continues to pioneer research in many fields should not be taken to arrogantly assume it’s right in every field, simply because it’s the US.
Ignoring the heft behind the Cass Report would be like ignoring the input of Wernher von Braun when launching the moonshots; the scientific impact of a European specialist which made all the difference between success and failure. Using weaker research to prop up their lucrative trade needs calling out. It took our Mama Cass to do it.
There is no heft, there is no substance, to Cass’ report. It is bullshit.
That is what ignoring the overwhleming majority of research because it supports what you don’t like is.
“Using weaker research to prop up their lucrative trade needs calling out”
Except of course it is as strong as the research for most medicine is, and the trade is no more lucrative than is any other field of medicine.
When is comes those who are “gender critical”, all you have is lies, fraud, and bigotry all the way down.
One need only mention Fauci or the CDC to understand how screwed up many US medical establishments are.
The Boards of the Endocrine Society and the AAP deserve the most severe punishments for their unbelievable support for mutilation, poisoning and destruction of children.
Medicine in the US is all about money. It is never right to remove the genitals and breasts of minors for any psychological reason. These are Nazi doctors who mutilate for ideological reasons.
“US medical establishment rejects Cass Report” <– As it very well should!
The Cass Report is a confabulation carefully designed with its illegitimate inclusion/exclusion criteria, to permit Cass to say anything and the NHS’s paymasters to command whatever they like.
Baselessly ignoring almost every piece of research about the topic is fraud — Cass is making of herself as notorious a fraud as is Andrew Wakefield.
In the U.S. it’s all about money. Health service providers are under pressure to maximize profits and expand their empires. There is fierce competition to acquire hospitals and expensive equipment. In the meantime the number of unnecessary surgeries has gone up dramatically: https://www.gislaw.com/firm-articles/report-finds-unnecessary-surgeries-plague-many-thousands-each-year/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20report%2C%20tens,all%20operations%20in%20some%20specialties.
It’s best to view these health service providers and pharmaceutical companies as drug cartels. They want patients hooked on surgeries and medication for life. This is why transgender lobbying is so strong here. ‘Switiching’ sex requires a lifetime of surgeries and hormones, not just to transition, but also to maintain a certain image.
Liar, it is no more about money in the US than it is in the UK — and worse, in the UK it is far more about political grift.
Unpopular ailments go wanting for help.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/12/daisy-lafarge-ehlers-danlos-syndrome-lovebug?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us
Such is the socialist medicine of the NHS.
“It’s best to view these health service providers and pharmaceutical companies as drug cartels.’ <– And if one is an insane imbecile, you will.
“Switiching’ sex requires a lifetime of surgeries and hormones, not just to transition, but also to maintain a certain image.” <– No moron, it requires a discrete set of surgeries, far fewer if one transitions as a youth*, and the actual cost of HRT is near negligible.
*Meaning the advocates for youthful transition per current WPATH protocols are seeking to deprive their industry of $100ks of dollars per patient. I know for a fact that were I to pay out of pocket for the whole of my HRT, it might rise to $25/month. You are only a deliberately ignorant liar in this.
Transgenderism isn’t the same as hyper mobility. Please don’t conflate sexual fetishism with real physical ailments.
There is no such sexual fetishism involved — being transgender is only physical — and the politics of funding care for rare problems is the same.
You are an ordinary psychopath, it’s a pity that people waste time objecting to an evil and narrow-minded idiot
I am no psychopath at all — that more likely applies to you people trying to run other people’s lives, forcing girls to have beards and deep voices while you force boys to have breasts and periods.
You need help
What help I needed, I’ve had. Look to yourself, repair your moral vanity and bigoted ignorance.
Are you able to enter into a discussion with anyone without insulting them?
Perhaps you would be better off in your echo chamber where everyone will wholeheartedly agree with you
“Are you able to enter into a discussion with anyone without insulting them?” <– Honest people sure. No one “gender critical” is honest.
“Perhaps you would be better off in your echo chamber where everyone will wholeheartedly agree with you” <– No, I’m here to afflict you with reality here in your delusional echo chamber.
You’re only hurting your own cause, Talia. Given how extreme, intolerant, and vicious your version of that cause is, I’m glad you’re failing it.
You sound meanspirited and self-righteous.
Examine your own affliction.
Imbecile, I am no more extreme than is reality.
For the sake of your delusions, you are a child abuser, no more no less.
Those who call all they cannot accept or stand to hear fools and villains (and worse) eventually encounter their own mirror-images, and shadows.
Even I don’t have any more energy to spend arguing with a fundamentalist zealot such as yourself.
Though you are not intentionally funny, from now on I choose to laugh at you with as much good nature as I can muster on a given day. May God have mercy on all of us, even “freelance” believers like me.
Take care of yourself.
“Those who call … care of yourself.” <– Uhuh.
You can declare victory and go home, you remain a willfuil child abuser on the basis of nothing but your preference.
Bye now.
*If you ever come to a less hostile and judgmental place within yourself, and return here with more intellectual
civilitycharity and basic decency, I’ll probably be around.And I’ll be willing to give you credit for the improvement.
I need no improvement in regard to this. You need any relevant facts backing you up, of those you are bereft!
Until and unless those are produced, you are only a child abuser, because you like it. For some reason, it makes you feel good to hurt these children.
That is what facts tell us.
That’s not a very good path toward improvement.
You use some of the most abusive and transgressive language imaginable, conflating opposition to extraordinary intervention with child abuse and sadism, etc.
Your facts are skewed and hyper-cherrypicked. Many with far more medical knowledge and first hand experience disagree with you
This would seem less insane if you demonstrated any kindness or compassion of your own. You don’t, Talia.
The folly of your approach is that I am a moderate and mostly kind person whose mind can be changed in large measure, gradually for the most part. But not by you.
“That’s not a very good path toward improvement.” <– I do not need to improve here.
“You use some of the most abusive and transgressive language imaginable” <– Under the circumstances which are real about it, I am quite restrained.
“conflating opposition to extraordinary intervention with child abuse and sadism” <– It is not more extraordinary than the circumstances involved — it is near obvious given current technology — that is why it has been the standard for over 20 years –and opposition to its use is abuse and sadism.
“Your facts are skewed and hyper-cherrypicked.” <– None of that is true. Well over 90% of all research done on the topic agrees with me, and opposes your viewpoint. On your side are the great frauds in the field — like Money, Zucker, McHugh, Bailey, Blanchard, etc.
“Many with far more medical knowledge and first hand experience disagree with you” <– So what? I have studied the field personally for well over 40 years, I know when, how, and why the tides of opinion changed — and — for everyone with any particular level of medical expertise who disagrees with me, there are over 100 with like experience to that one who agree with me.
“This would seem less insane if you demonstrated any kindness or compassion of your own. You don’t,” <– I have kindness for those who deserve it. You do not. You have no kindness or compassion for people including children with gender dysphoria, that is why you do not.
“The folly of your approach is that I am a moderate <– No you are not any moderate. You are a fully committed gender critical partisan — you have shown no possibility that you might be wrong, even in the face of the very much typical, not cherry picked research which proves you are as batsh!t crazy as a Flat Earther.
“But not by you.” <– Also not by any facts can your certainty be changed.
Are you one who thinks that:
Gender does not physically exist, only the sex of a person has physical existence.
That if gender physically exists, it is always identical to the sex of a person?
You have a boundless appetite for contentious argument and produce insult after insult.
I acknowledge that gender expression has significant fluidity but for most it runs within a range of biological sex.
For some, the expression is strongly atypical, but probably needn’t be altered by chemical or surgical interventions, at least not before early adulthood.
I trust neither of us thinks boys need to be butch or girls to be demure, so why does the physiology need to be changed? To what purpose?
I think there are a rare few who should qualify to start a chemical transition at 16 or so, after at least a year or two of publicly living at odds with one’s biological sex, to get a taste of what that may really be like.
And true hermaphrodites may need or warrant earlier and different assistance.
Since no treatment or surgery can fully reverse birth sex, most children should wait until the decision is legally theirs. Life will be tough for most of these children either way, and we should be more understanding and accepting of difference. But learning to live with the imperfect body nature gave you is a better route for most, because you cannot have your absolute dream body anyway in most cases. If behaving and dressing in a way that is more typical of the other sex can’t get you through your childhood alive, with a modicum of self-esteem, what chance do extreme medical interventions have at manufacturing a robust will to live?
By the way: Do you condemn and ridicule your own family members the way you do strangers online? I just can’t imagine that all or even most of your blood relatives are correct and intense enough in their trans-related views for your liking.
I genuinely hope you are not estranged from most or all of your (birth) family.
Waiting on your reply, AJ.
Posted. I tried to post it 3 days ago but my reply was censored until today.
I really don’t have much of an appetite to argue with you any more. I don’t claim to know everything about these matters, nor do I desire to force people to adopt my perspective, opinions, or beliefs–most of which are not etched in stone. I detect that you can’t honestly say the same for yourself. (I know you pretend that every point of your outlook is solidly based in established fact, but I hope even you don’t believe yourself on that front).
Your approach is consistently hostile and insulting. I’ll give you the last word on this board if you want it, but henceforth you’ll have to do your abusive cut-and-paste ridicule routine with someone else.
“I really don’t have much of an appetite to argue with you any more.” <– You are not well equipped for it are you? You know nothing real and care not to.
“(I know you pretend that every point of your outlook is solidly based in established fact, but I hope even you don’t believe yourself on that front).” <– Why would I not believe it? You and your like are never able to refute anything I say.
You can never get down to any data supporting you, can you?
“Your approach is consistently hostile and insulting.” <– Which is all you deserve. After all, you never find any facts which excuse your opinions from being anything other than wilful monstrous child abuse.
And still waiting on your reply to this:
Are you one who thinks that:
Gender does not physically exist, only the sex of a person has physical existence.
That if gender physically exists, it is always identical to the sex of a person?
Also, “nor do I desire to force people to adopt my perspective,” then shut up about it on public forums. Stand the heat or leave the kitchen.
You are not fairminded, nor a very goodhearted or empathetic person. Disprove that.
Gender expression has strong biological correlation with sex across populations. But biology is not determinative of all related behavior or thought, of course. And for some minority the tables are turned, or even flipped over. I admit that. So gender expression represents some intersection of biology, individual makeup, and changeable cultural norms (that are nonetheless somewhat stable over time and across cultures).
Despite your radical skepticism about all standards and definitions of gender expression, you seem to think that a 6-year-old, for example, can have some meaningful sense of what it means to be either a man or woman in some absolute or true sense, despite your radical skepticism about all standards and definitions of gender expression. Why not work with the body Nature gave you until it has developed? Why should the word of a troubled, body dysmorphic 6, 12, of 15 year old about his, her, or their identity be taken as some truth so sacred that even questioning it is supposedly tantamount to encouraging suicide? What is so cruel or unjust about any secondary sex characteristic (facial hair, menstruation, etc.) that is both natural and no threat to physical health? Seriously, try to explain that, preferably without resort to rage or insult.
Can you establish a solid connection between limited access to chemical interventions for children and increased incidence of “successful” suicide?
Send me reputable-seeming links and I’ll read them…if you cool it on the level of contempt and insult you cough up with nearly every sentence you type. Whatever you think, while I am not perfect or above criticism, I deserve far better than what you are spitting at me. That’s a non-falsifiable truth, Talia.
Maybe just send the links without gainsaying everything I’ve said like some contrarian robot this time?*
*And if you can’t or won’t do that, nor engage with me on any kind of civil level at least some of the time, really ask yourself: Are you trying to do any good with all the time you spend here, or simply hate-posting, taking a pathological delight in condemning and ridiculing me and others without persuading anybody?
You have way too much anger for all or even most of it to be righteous. I am attempting to listen to, respect, and consider your point of view but you’re making that into a waste of time and energy so far. I’ve given you a lot of well-intentioned time and attention.
It seems you just want to start fires and shout “get out of MY kitchen!”.
Yes. I don’t know why you’re getting eight downticks for writing what’s simply the truth! I suppose the old Chinese proverb is truer than ever: he who speaks the truth needs a fast horse!
The Canadian Pediatric Association is also ignoring the Cass Report. Their disingenuous reasoning is that puberty blockers work and if there are no obvious signs of a reaction to the drug than what’s the problem? The entire issue of the lack of reliable scientific investigation into irreversible long term physical and/or psychological effects seems to be ignored.
“I’ve prescribed puberty blockers and hormones tons of times and nobody’s died yet!”
Well then, that’s good enough for me. The Cass Report must be a load of transphobic rubbish. Just more Trump-adjacent perpetuation of systemic cis-gender oppression. Or something.
“The Canadian Pediatric Association is also ignoring the Cass Report.” <– Excellent. They are not captured by you child abusers.
“Their disingenuous reasoning is that puberty blockers work and if there are no obvious signs of a reaction to the drug than what’s the problem?” <– No liar, it is that there are no signs of any such problems short or long term, and because potential adverse effects are tracked, there would be if there were such. You lie to claim otherwise. When that is what she is saying on a given roll-of-the-dice day, Cass is lying to claim otherwise.
“The entire issue of the lack of reliable scientific investigation into irreversible long term physical and/or psychological effects seems to be ignored.” <– The entire issue is that you monstrous child abusers are lying about there not being evidence of the safety of this use of puberty blockers. It is overwhelming to honest and intelligent people they are more safe than almost any medication
“The Cass Report must be a load of transphobic rubbish.” <– It is fraud intended to give cover to exactly such rubbish.
If protecting children from a sick, obsessive, psychotic group of people like you, means I will be insulted over and over then I would gladly be labeled anything to protect them. You are a people that deserve to live in an institution, lobotomized and straight jacketed. You’re a sick to the very core, the same way a serial rapist and pedophile is sick. No science, no matter how much they attempt to rewrite the narratives, has ever and will ever prove that any of these medications work or ought to be used on children. I am a physician and by God I will defend the very little honor and integrity left in the profession. I will protect the children, my patients and myself from this absolute barbaric, psychotic, satanic and dark evil that pervades the very fabric of our society.
I don’t not give a F**k who, where or what tells me it’s safe, normal and good I will never, ever use it or advocate it. It’s about time we took back society because if this madness goes any further we’re done for.
Thank you. Where are the other real doctors?
You mean the 99.8% who disagree with you?
Quite so.
It is quite a lie he tells, no more.
“If protecting children from a sick, obsessive, psychotic group of people like you” <– No such group exists on my end. The desire to see children miserable and mutilated is yours.
That is what trying to force any boys to have breasts and periods and trying to force any girls to have beards and deep voices is, and that is what you want.
“I don’t not give a F**k who, where or what tells me it’s safe, normal and good I will never, ever use it or advocate it.” <– Child abusing imbecile, it is usual for 1 in 150 people to be transgender, and it is usual for 1 in 3 of them to seek medical transition. That is normal, and now that it is possible to their satisfaction it should be legal and treated as is every other medical problem.
“It’s about time we took back society because if this madness goes any further we’re done for.” <– It is every type of progressive which society must be freed of — people like you who think your design for society can be enforced in law on everyone. It is only if people like you win that we are done for.
The Prime Minister of Canada has been captured by the Woke ideology which includes “affirmation” – the belief that children have an innate sense of their ‘real’ selves. This madness will not end until we have a change of government. I have seen little to no reports on the MSM on the Cass Report or the WPATH files in Canada. Cowards, all of them.
The “US medical establishment” are all professional associations representing the interests of doctors – so they are not going to suggest that their members are engaged in anything that might result in legal liability. Certainly, not in a society as litigious as the US.
That’s a very good point. Admitting they were mistaken (by accepting the findings of the Cass Report) would be tantamount to pleading guilty in a court trying a future lawsuit by those who transitioned – something which now seems almost inevitable.
Not just inevitable, but already underway; I believe there are 3 or 4 active cases now, and certainly more to come.
Just found this article from last fall that puts the number at close to 10, and growing. Lots of good, albeit disturbing, data in this piece; worth a read.
Uhuh, 10.
For just 1% of the 1% who regret transition and say it was altogether a mistake to be suing in the US, there would need to be 74 or so.
.
Is it Doctors they represent or the Accountants?
Many medical associations only represent a small portion of those in the given field, they are kind of like unions or bureaucracies, they are more interested self-perpetration of themselves and advancing their own interests and that of those who they allied with.
Which is precisely why lawsuits will be what brings down this madness. When it starts costing hospitals or doctors big bucks they will abandon ‘gender-affirming’ activities.
This is one time you should root for the lawyers.
It’s not really the ‘US medical establishment’, though, is it? It seems to be just this Endocrine Society – so far. In the piece itself it says they rejected similar findings ‘last year’, which is hardly evidence of a post-Cass denunciation programme.
It’ll be interesting to see how the reaction plays out over time in a culture as litigious as the US. Watch this space for class actions, malpractice suits and medical defrockings. We can only hope.
“It seems to be just this Endocrine Society” <– Uhuh. Also the AAP, APA,and AMA. None have endorsed Cass’ fraud.
“It’ll be interesting to see how the reaction plays out over time in a culture as litigious as the US. Watch this space for class actions, malpractice suits and medical defrockings. We can only hope.” <– I hope you hold your breath. Your sort of Mengelesque child abuser has only been screaming “wait for the backlash!!!” for 3 or 4 decades. By what year will you call it quits then?
https://americanmind.org/salvo/genital-mutilation-for-the-masses/
A worthless hit piece containing no relevant facts. It is a pack of lies. So what?
How many children were transitioning three decades ago?
How many does not matter, the rate of success matters, and it has only improved.
I was referring to the backlash. You said we’ve been waiting for a backlash for three or four decades, but that really isn’t the case, because widespread medical interventions for children is maybe 10 years old.
“You said we’ve been waiting for a backlash for three or four decades,” <– And you have been. Quite consistently, only about 1 in 10,000 who transition medically feel they have cause to sue
“because widespread medical interventions for children is maybe 10 years old. ” <– False. Over 20.
And of course, your sort was equally claiming there would be a “backlash” regarding adults for decades before.
Exactly , and would accepting her findings not just accelerate that litigation?
Not when she can’t agree with you that her findings do . . .
https://twitter.com/DadTrans/status/1781277912852766796
There are already a handful currently before the courts. It is unfortunate that legal consequences are the only thing some medical practices will understand.
A handful where? Even in the UK, for so few as <1% of those who regret medical transition to suddenly be suing, who themselves are only <1%, there would need to be 15. The US would need to see 74. Canada should have 9 of them. If you are correct only insofar as 1 in 10000 people who transition will sue, where are they all?
You are actually completely wrong.
Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they?
They’re still making the money while covering their arses against future lawsuits.
I suppose ‘duck-affirming care’ improves the well-being of trans-duck and duck-diverse people and reduces the risk of suicide. I believe I am a duck. Therefore, I should be given surgery to have duck feet, a duckbill, and duck feathers. “Would you rather have a dead boy or a live duck?” they will ask my parents. I have a right to my lived truth, and you should respect my life choices. 😉
I think you should embrace your duckness and engage whatever medical Quackery required.
First laugh of the day 🙂
“I suppose ‘duck … my life choices.” <– Except there are no Duck-diverse people, and you are really only a stupid bigot exclaiming how wonderful you think it would be if some girls were forced to have beards and deep voices and how much you’d love to make some boys have breasts and periods.
You’re a child abuser.
The comments on the legal liability of the US medical organizations are spot on. They are essentially stuck. If they walk back their guidance they are admitting they were wrong and will face the consequences in court.
In the meantime, the growing cognitive dissonance is reaching insane proportions. Earlier this year, the Endocrine Society published a paper warning that use of plastics in the US might affect the natural functioning of the endocrine system (which would be a bad thing). Earlier this week, the Wall Street Journal ran a story about the stress hormone — cortisol — with warnings from endocrinologists not to use over-the-counter supplements to regulate the hormone. Again, we do not want to interrupt the natural functioning of the endocrine systems, and gosh, who knows what are in those supplements?
But injecting a sexed body with hormones that eons of evolution decreed should be for the opposite sex — yeah, let’s try that out and see what happens.
“But injecting a sexed body with hormones that eons of evolution decreed should be for the opposite sex — yeah, let’s try that out and see what happens.”
I know, right? What could possibly go wrong? Apart from sterility, shortened lives, psychological problems, lifelong dependency on drugs, and a host of other, yet unknown, issues. Dr Mengele would be so pleased with these freakish experiments.
Unsurprising as a lobby dominated by Big Pharma and unscrupulous plastic surgeons.
I would imagine that at this point, some of the practitioners believe they have no option but to double down on it, in case admitting they were wrong would leave them open to being sued for malpractice.
They will be sued for malpractice, and I for one hope that they will have every last penny taken away from them. I want to see these monsters destitute. I know that’s wishful thinking, but one can hope…
Actually, I had a vague recall of something about the Endocrine Society, but couldn’t find any evidence of it on Google. I tried Bing and found:
Gender dysphoria in young people is rising—and so is professional disagreement | The BMJ
Specific quote of interest from that article:
“The Endocrine Society commissioned two systematic reviews for its clinical practice guideline, Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons: one on the effects of sex steroids on lipids and cardiovascular outcomes, the other on their effects on bone health.3233 To indicate the quality of evidence underpinning its various guidelines, the Endocrine Society employed the GRADE system (grading of recommendations assessment, development, and evaluation) and judged the quality of evidence for all recommendations on adolescents as “low” or “very low.”
Guyatt, who co-developed GRADE, found “serious problems” with the Endocrine Society guidelines, noting that the systematic reviews didn’t look at the effect of the interventions on gender dysphoria itself, arguably “the most important outcome.” He also noted that the Endocrine Society had at times paired strong recommendations—phrased as “we recommend”—with weak evidence. In the adolescent section, the weaker phrasing “we suggest” is used for pubertal hormone suppression when children “first exhibit physical changes of puberty”; however, the stronger phrasing is used to “recommend” GnRHa treatment.
“GRADE discourages strong recommendations with low or very low quality evidence except under very specific circumstances,” Guyatt told The BMJ. Those exceptions are “very few and far between,” and when used in guidance, their rationale should be made explicit, Guyatt said. In an emailed response, the Endocrine Society referenced the GRADE system’s five exceptions, but did not specify which it was applying.”
Sooooooo . . . . It appears that the Endocrine Society has in fact previously conducted systematic reviews of its own that came to conclusions not dramatically different from Cass.
“It appears that the Endocrine Society has in fact previously conducted systematic reviews of its own that came to conclusions not dramatically different from Cass.” <– Well Cass herself — just weeks after her report came out — told The Kite Trust that puberty blockers should be fr more readily available to gender dysphoric youth, soon enough administered to do the good they can, and that puberty blockers are safe.
As I have cited a link to more than once in this thread.
Medical charlatans like Peter Daszak at EcoHealth are only now admitting to engaging in illegal gain of function “research” at Wuhan that gave the world a global “pandemic”. That, of course, allowed governments to impose draconian restrictions on the populace and make huge profits for the pharmaceutical industry that owns them.
Trust in institutions across every field is at rock bottom for good reason. Doctors, heal yourselves.
Islam will cure this. Islam cures feminism, too!
I do not want the “cures” offered by Islam! The enemy of my enemy is not my friend.
Repeating what others have said: Money is being made, and that trumps all else in the United States. When “gender affirming care” — i.e. the medical and surgical mutilation of minors — no longer yields a profit worth the risk of litigation from those harmed, American practitioners will see the wisdom of the Cass Report. Just shameful.
What’s so amazing and frightening is how quickly the entire intellectual structure of “science” has crumbled in America and, let’s be honest, across the West.
So what the hell are we supposed to do now?
The Cass review, although extensive and voluminous is not the be all and end all, chiefly because, as the review points out, there are huge deficiencies in the relevant research or no research data at all.
For a proper assessment of this review I would comend to interested / curious individuals Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz’s substack. He has produced 5 commentaries on this report so far and a fifth on puberty blockers is supposed to be in process.
The commentary titles so far are :
Introduction
Has there been an exponential increase in young people with gender dysphoria ?
What the review got right
Proving opponents of medical treatment for trans children wrong
Regret, persistence, detransition, and further mistakes in the Cass review
You will have to subscribe to view, however G M-K has been good value for money since at least 2020 as his speciality is dissecting papers and systematic reviews in a particularly forensic way.
Good on Cass
A secondary issue – the NHS’s ability to change direction across the board with speed because it’s National, whereas the more pluralistic fee-paying US system might require multiple State and Federal interventions. Pros and cons of course to centralised vs decentralised but in this instance…
Good on Cass when?
When after her report was published, she told The Kite Trust that puberty blockers should be more widely and the more early administered, and that blockers were safe?
Yes, good on Cass then.