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July 2, 2020 - 5:13pm
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It’s easy to dismiss anyone querying the Black Lives Matter movement as either pointlessly contrarian or — worse — actually racist. After all, who could object to the truism contained within the movement’s name?
But there are important questions to ask about what the facts show about the scale of ‘systemic racism’, and whether drawing attention to race in such an intense way ultimately advances or hurts Martin Luther King’s vision of people being judged “not by the colour of their skin but but the content of their character.”
Coleman Hughes is just 24 years old, but as a fellow of the Manhattan Institute and Contributing Editor of City Journal, has already established himself as a brave and distinctly level-headed voice during heated times.
It was a pleasure to talk to him, and hear his measured and fair assessment of race relations in America, and the effect of the wider BLM movement. Have a watch above…
Freddie Sayers is the Editor-in-Chief & CEO of UnHerd. He was previously Editor-in-Chief of YouGov, and founder of PoliticsHome.
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SubscribeI have seen quite a lot of interviews and podcasts with Coleman prior to this interview. He always brings real research and data to the debate, along with a lot of interesting perspectives. And he is terrifyingly serious, wise and calm for his age. (At 24 my main interest was a the next Pixies LP). There will never be another Thomas Sowell, but Coleman will surely play that role in the decades to come.
Beautifully stated. I look forward to more from Coleman Hughes for many years to come. His dignity and calm during these turbulent times is truly inspiring.
I was listening to an interview and he recommended White Guilt by Shelby Steele. It’s easily the most important and vital book on race I’ve ever seen. With no hyperbole, I learned more about race relations in the 24 hours I devoured that book than in my entire life previously.
I can’t believe he’s that young. What a wise head on such young shoulders. What a thoughtful commentator he is.
well stated and I too at 24 was (mostly) concerned with The Pixies!!
Excellent. It seems to me that BLM is creating barriers between blacks and others that it will be difficult to overcome. And, the guilt ridden whites don’t realize I guess what a burden they are placing on blacks in asking for their forgiveness! How many blacks want that role? I found myself watching interracial couples today in the grocery store and wondering how this stuff affects their relationship. Interracial marriages have increased dramatically since the 60s but somehow that doesn’t matter and doesn’t indicate anything about race relations. I am white and although I was involved in the civil rights movement in the 60s, my children and some of my oldest friends say I am a racist because I am skeptical about the aims of BLM.
I know. It’s sickening. Anti-racism must be on their terms using their beliefs and their structures. Once an ideology insulates itself against criticism with such repressive and insidious tactics, it is no longer capable of self-correcting and, tautologically, veers from reality.
I think there is an inherent bias against the poor in any city and how this plays out isn’t necessarily racist. Witness the brutality (black-on-black) in policing in Nigeria for example, or white-on-white in Liverpool or Glasgow. However It’s probable that that where there is a racial or ethnic difference those with power with have less understanding and empathy, so the outcomes will be less fair; hence the fear.
Is it systemic? It was, laws get passed as countries civilise, and things change. This process takes generations, but it is happening.
The real issue around the Police isn’t this, it’s the militarisation of the forces, and the capitalization of weaponry flowing into the populace.
100% this. On viewing the murder, apart from horror my first instinct was that the reason it is almost acceptable for US police to behave like sociopaths is because weapons are everywhere, not least in the hands of criminals.
What struck me also was that it was only how long he was being held there that became the issue. At first nobody is saying much as if it were normal for a police officer to kneel on someone’s neck (indeed it’s a permitted policing restraining technique, within guidelines). To any non-US witness this is insane.
Such a relief to hear a calm, rational discussion without the interviewer constantly interrupting to get a soundbite. Fabulous interview. I may not always agree with what’s being said by Unherd’s guests but to hear the other point of view calmly makes me more understanding. Thankyou. Check out Coleman Hughes’ Triggernometry interview, too.
Great interview! So clear and cogent.
One of the issues suggested was that he no longer seemed comfortable with considering himself a liberal – which is madness given his very liberal views.
The phrase seems to have been perverted beyond its true meaning and perhaps should be reclaimed. It is liberal to want equality. It is patently illiberal to try to coerce one demographic to conform based on historic or perceived current inequalities. This applies across a lot of the current issues.
Thank you Unherd. Brilliant interview that explores the many complicated issues that the mainstream media is either too lazy or scared to discuss.
Keep up the good work.
Coleman is wrong (around minute 3:30) to assume that a 10-25% bias is small. A 25% bias at every interaction with a system (e.g.: stopped by police, encounter escalated, charging with felony vs misdemeanor, sentencing) will result in a 7.4x disparity in outcomes after 9 interactions. Just a 10% bias, after 21 interactions.
°Black lives matter” as a phrase is semantically incomplete. It invites us to complete the phrase and to make it semantically unambiguous. This is because it is a statement about a subset of a larger set, but the relationship to the set as a whole has not be specified. I.e. we do not know why the speaker drew our attention to the subset. There are two natural relationships between the subset and the set as a whole: 1) “Black lives matter – and others do not.” 2) “Black lives matter also.”
Because it is incomplete and the two natural completions have opposite meanings, it is probably appropriate to stop the person who uses the phrase, and to demand that they explain the relationship to the whole that they are demanding that we respect.
To give an example, in the machismo ethos as found in Latin American culture, if a man says “I am a man.” It is taken as an insult to other men, because it implies that they are not.
Part of the marketing brilliance of this phrase is that it allows the speaker to use it with the same bravado as in the machismo ethos while travelling incognito under the guise of a statement of unity. It is little wonder that the organization has placed so much importance on leaving the ambiguity as it is.
There is an interpretation for “Black lives matter – but others do not. ” which is not racist. It would be essentially, “Black lives matter, but others do not, today.” I.e. “today I have dignity and I am taking care of myself, because sometimes we all have to do that.” If we want to be charitable, this seems the most likely interpretation that the organization intended.
Given the murder of Jessica Whitaker apparently for saying “all lives matter”, and the other violence that has been done in the name of Black Lives Matter, I think it would be unethical at this point for the organization to not step forward and clarify their intended meaning.
Let’s hope we have Thomas Sowell for a few more years to lob out his rational bombs regularly! An interesting discussion – he does seem to have the world on his shoulders unsurprisingly. His comment about uninspiring presidents reminded me of a Jordan Peterson interview where he looked forward to reverting to “average incompetence” from a president. I do find the comments from the Conservative side of the debate #blexit interesting, in their insistence that Trump has made actual, material differences in black America – the very recent change of law for Federal hirings away from requirements to have a formal college degree to skills based assessment, in order to undo discrimination against lower income applicants, not able to consider college student debt is a valid example.
Couldn’t one expand this critique from race to gender (each of the seven individually), veterans, illegal immigrants, indeed, to all identitarian movements, and with the prototype antisemitism?
I have seen your interview on systemic racism and structural inequalities. Why l don’t agree entirely on the distinction between racism and racial biased concept.
However, I ‘ m glad that people are beginning to have these conversations as it is a step towards full understanding and clarity to the underlying issues around systemic racism and structural inequalities.
It will be nice to start having these debates in the UK too, focusing on the UK system.
I’ m an activist and s strong campaigner against these ssues.
Check youtube; Systemic Racism and Structural inequalities.
Have Your Say#SpeakOut
I got to know about your article having done a similar interview via all social media platforms, someone sent your link.
Happy to discuss further and have a debate on this issue.
Thanks,
Matilda
I am filled with envy at the eloquence, intelligence, bravery, and wisdom displayed by Coleman at his young age. What I wouldn’t give for his talents! I hope to hear more from him as he continues to develop and mature his theories and ideas.
I’m glad to see that Coleman’s views have found an interested and supportive audience here on UnHerd. Even so, I am aware that other black commentators who have dared to express non-conforming opinions or share inconvenient truths have been panned by leftists as “Uncle Toms” (see, e.g., Candace Owens). I hope that the unwashed masses of social media are not so quick to label Coleman a race traitor before listening to the merits of his commentary.
Here is the comment I posted on the Youtube page for this:
This young man – half my age – is very well spoken indeed. And the set of questions that the Unherd commentator puts to him are well thought out as well. But, in total, both of them seem to be missing a few essential point(s) or lesson(s) that American history – and Western History, as well – must teach or offer to anyone who dares to actually objectively delve into them. That is, that for thousands of years humans have been openly blatantly racist and nearly genocidally provincial. First, read John the Deacon’s 6th Century history of Europe and see how one community after another of Europeans murdered their neighbors in centuries of internecine warfare fought between groups living in extreme close proximity. Then, read the lengthy and abundantly available histories of European, African, Middle Eastern/Arabian/Muslim, Asian, etc enslavement and oppression and domination of a wide variety of different “races”. My point, as it directly relates to the interviews comments and statements, is that it is, in my humble opinion, impossible to ignore both the historical and contemporary realities of blatantly racialized social structures, which in a number of instances here, both the interviewer and the interviewee seem to be willing to do. I am both black and white – ie. mulatto or mixed race – and I do not wish to involve myself in a discourse that ever places one over the other in any sense, but to portray our societies state in modernity as not racist is simply not legitimate. Yes, there have been far reaching moral cultural advances in our culture here and elsewhere, but to suggest that systemic racism is a myth or a mirage is absurd on the very face of it…
All good stuff, I agree 100%—the problem is what was omitted! Maybe last year US police killed only 50 ‘unarmed’ people, but they killed over 1000 total, 8% of US homicides. From beginning to end, the US criminal-justice pipeline dwarfs those of our OECD peer nations in nearly all metrics. We have allowed the criminal-justice problem to fester, and at the center of the wound is Drug Prohibition. At least in this conversation marijuana was mentioned, if only briefly. It is fine to approach a multi-dimensional problem with caution and nuance, but finally you must answer a question: What is to be done? I suggest Larry Elder’s 10 Steps to Fix America, or at least one of them: End the Drug War.
To the curious I would recommend the papers below, followed by the first season of Obama’s favorite TV series:
https://www.researchgate.ne…
https://qz.com/371393/video…
‘like a cup of cold sick’ – yes
‘abandon[ing] responsibilities’ and things traditionally assoc with monarchy – yes. Well said Paul.
The man is spectacularly stupid with a lack of self-awareness that is simply staggering. An insult to all Britons with a brain. We are not a racist country.
Funny when Freddie with his Yale chin uses the royal “we”….