And the problem was that Brexiteers wanted contradictory things; some of us wanted to put the brakes on globalisation, and to have a more egalitarian, high-wage society; others wanted more economic freedom. Clearly those two things contradict each other. Some wanted EEA membership; some wanted out altogether.
As for democracy, the dull truth is that international institutions have to be remote and undemocratic. As global trade has become more complicated, so the rules and bodies behind them have had to become more arcane; governing and rule-making in the 21st century has to be beyond the understanding of most people (journalists included).
All the arguments I had previously used to justify leaving, in particular the hope of entering a sort of half-way house with EFTA, I just no longer believed. All that was left was the emotional reasoning; the elephant was in charge, while the rider was basically asleep.
As Richard Nixon aide Kevin Phillips once said, politics is all about knowing who hates whom, and the European question was driven by social antagonism.
In my case — and many others — this wasn’t towards the EU, its emblems or even the fabled “eurocrats”. The EU flag did and does fill me with indifference. The inevitable superstate the continentals were heading towards probably suited people in Lombardy, Alsace or the various other provinces of core Europe in which gradations of language and culture existed in one continuum. It just didn’t suit us, for reasons of geography and history.
The antagonism was towards other British people, a certain sort of London politico type who reads one of the quartet of the Guardian, Economist, FT or Times, who sees themselves as being on the right side of history yet was wrong about the euro, probably wrong about Iraq, identifies with radicalism but is passionately snobbish towards the provincial and non-academic, and has naked class interests at heart. The sort of person who loves Europe but is in reality far more interested in American politics, and almost certainly went to Oxbridge and likes to tweet about “the lack of diversity at my alma mater”.
Having said that, I’m also repulsed by a certain type of Tory Eurosceptic – purple-faced golf club bores who opine about “what this country needs” and “you can’t say anything anymore”. I don’t trust them, either. And the more I listened to the Brexiteers, the more I came to the belief that they were living in cloud cuckoo land, and were going to sink the economy and also endanger conservatism for a generation.
That social hatred has increased since, to levels not seen in England in generations. And even as I have come to conclude that the Remainers were right all along, I also dislike them more than ever. That same insufferable London type has become even more insufferable, knowing that on the big question they are right but totally unconcerned about the root causes of other people’s unhappiness, and how in particular low-skilled immigration helped to break the social contract. (Of course there are benefits to free movement, but class and income-wise the costs and benefits are incredibly lopsided.)
And yet annoying or unappealing people can be right — indeed they often are.
Since that vote our politics has become more emotional and visceral, giving birth to a new sort of public figure, people like Arron Banks, Jolyon Maugham and a dozen other political celebrities, without whose daily presence we would all be much happier and better people.
It’s characterised by MPs like Mark Francois prattling on about D-Day – because it’s always the bloody war for these people — and David Lammy, once a seemingly normal, level-headed man but now transformed into a hysteric comparing Brexiteers to Nazis while — hilariously — writing a book about the dangers of “tribalism”.
Certainly we are more tribal, and the referendum has caused British people to identify in tribal ways unseen since the 17th century, Remainer and Leaver are far stronger affiliations than Labour or Tory were. It has, paradoxically, been a very parochial affair, and even the EU flags flying from London windows are in this context symbols of a particular British identity.
Yet to some extent it has made many British people feel fully European for the first time, me included. On holiday last year I felt deep regret at the thought of separation from our fellow Europeans, especially while in Holland, with which Britain has an especially strong connection.
My sense of being a European has also grown as the potential menace of the Chinese, Russian and Turkish regimes has become clearer. Most of all, though, has been the realisation this year that American political culture is an irredeemably corrosive and dangerous force.
At the time of the vote, I replied to my daughter that it was more complicated than she realised, and I’d explain to her when she was older. She’s now at secondary school, old enough to understand far more about the world, and if I’m honest I’m now none the wiser.
Perhaps it could have been handled better. But it’s feeble for Eurosceptics to complain that they didn’t get the Brexit they wanted, nor is it any comfort to point to root causes, or to blame Remainers for trying to reverse the vote. Ultimately, if Brexit turns out to be a mistake, it’s the fault of Brexiteers alone. After all, taking control means taking responsibility, too.
Small Men on the Wrong Side of History is published by Constable. The paperback, retitled Tory Boy, comes out in January.
Join the discussion
Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber
To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.
Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.
SubscribeI don’t regret voting for Brexit but I can sympathise with some of the sentiments in this piece.
Ultimately though, the EU’s constitution, and it has one whether they wish to call it that or not, places a fundamental limitation on permissible sphere of political positions a democracy can adopt and that for me is unacceptable.
Were I to describe my ideological leanings I would call myself a pragmatic pluralist. I believe maximising political diversity, maximises our freedom of choice and this ultimately leads to better governance. This is not achievable within the rigid framework of the European Union.
Whilst I recognise there are benefits to a pan continental approach to many issues, calls for Europe to decentralise and adopt a multi-speed or concentric model, both before and after the referendum were sadly ignored.
If I regret anything. It’s the EU’s failure to reform itself into something I would wish to remain a part of.
“If I regret anything. It’s the EU’s failure to reform itself into something I would wish to remain a part of.”
I suspect that is exactly what many of us think. And not just in the U.K.
There just didn’t look like any route to reform, short of a major crisis.
I think the post Covid costs are going to focus European minds. There is already EU discontent in a lot of countries which could bring about a lot of change. Some countries are looking into a black hole of debt and the days of generous hand outs are over…
Maybe the countries suffering from the EU’s rigidity could club together as a trading bloc, ignoring the political aspects of le projet. They could call it… oh, something like the New European economic community.
JF
I mentioned that I, and many of my age group were actually *the Young* who voted overwhelmingly and enthusiastically for *Europe* in 1975 and also *The old* who voted overwhelmingly and enthusiastically against it in 2016.
I think that rather than some change in us, or some lazy assumption that as one gets older one simply votes for the wrong things, the cohort who were progressive or radicals in 1975 remained progressive (and a bit radical) in 2016.
They/we didn’t change and the cluse to why the vote changed lies in the label for which we were voting; the European Economic Community in 1975 having become the Europen Union in 2106.
What’s in a name?
I was one of ‘the young’ in 1975 but voted against joining this club and have never waivered from my view, again voting leave in 2016 and adamant that although there may be a few hurdles to cross in the short term we cannot be subservient to what is morphing into a fourth reich. I cannot believe, in view of the behaviour of the EU in recent weeks, how even the most ardent remainer could still want to be a part of this dictatorship.
I was one of *the young* in 1975, did a course with the OU on the EEC as it was, then voted in favour of joining.
I voted remain four years ago because, although some of the countries both cause trouble and are in trouble, I ffelt we would have a greater say sitting at the table than we will from ‘outside the room.’
I think the bad attitude of the EU throughout the talks have been to a great extent a means of ‘serving us right’ and to deter others from following our example.
The fact we have a load of dishonest fools leading us at the moment has not helped!
All I can remember about the 75 vote was that I’d rather not because of the Commonwealth, the Fishing and northern industry!
History tells us that whenever there was a crisis the EU did not allow it to go to waste. They exploited it as an excuse for increasing its power.
Or rather, had the EU not continued it’s expansion east we probably wouldn’t be here having this conversation.
Very much so. That was the point when it stopped being a simple trading house to make all our lives easier, (standardised roaming mobile phone tariffs, EHIC cards, etc) and became a political project for Domination.
The expansion to the east was driven in a large part by the UK, who wanted a broader rather than deeper union. Failure to do this might very well have resulted in these countries falling back into the orbit of the Russian Federation, which indeed has happened for some of the ex-Soviet states.
Agree. My sincere hope, as a Brexiteer is for EU reform.
We need to bring a replacement for the ECHR into the European sphere too, and start having a democratic process to change what those laws mean in practice.
A long way off I’m afraid.
On the other hand a properly constructed federal system won’t make things perfect. The US has a great federal system, chock full of unhappy people.
I suspect the real struggles of globalisation are inherent in imperatievs that there are no simple solutions to.
For instance, without balanced trade you are forced to sell your assets to foreigners, or accept massive inflation.
If you don’t accept large scale immigration, you could see jobs go abroad.
These forces are at a head at the moment, and they can’t be wished away via either nostalgia or regret.
Large countries are ungovernable as there are too many conflicting interests in different regions with different priorities. It’s hard enough to govern the UK. How can Europe do it?
Oh right, now I understand re-education camps. Or just getting to kids while theyr’e still at school. Same difference really.
The Eurocrats are aware that it will take a strong hand and the long game to bend the colonies.to their will.
Margaret Thatcher (meaning her convictions, her government and policies) can’t be understood without understanding the 1970s.
In the 1980s we had inflation that would be thought unbearable now, but we also had the growth in new industries that set the scene for the Blair years, which get referenced now as a period of reasonable wealth and business progress.
So massive out of control inflation…that came in the mid seventies because of the oil price effects on society IS bad, but some inflation can be beneficial.
The basic problem for the EU is that for Spain, Italy, Greece and others that have lost the ability to inflate (via devaluation) they are suffereing what is effectively deflation over a very long period.
My issue with this contention is that the Westminster electoral system reduces political diversity. A lot of anger over feeling voiceless is down to this, but that anger was directed at the EU.
Meanwhile, the EU itself is a patchwork of highly diverse thoughts, and its member nations, notably Germany, are nations that allow the representation of a highly diverse set of views.
At the same time, the UK is not reforming itself in this regard. For this reason, I don’t think your idea that Brexit will bring about greater political diversity will pan out.
I was interested to notice that the UK MEPs were highly diverse. Once gone, the EP has become extraordinarily uniform other than in sex.
I’ve just written a long post stating that I don’t think the author was ever against the EU. I’m for nation state democracy! Now I realise controlling ourselves, and international trade, is beyond the reach of normal people and that !”The inevitable superstate the continentals were heading towards ” is fine. Oh, I’m also a proud European now. Oh, I also have mentioned D-day, Brexiteers living in cloud cuckooland and posh Tories at golf clubs as my Brexiteer stereotypes. But I was one of you who has now seen the light.
Uh huh. Of course. And if you have reversed your decision then you’re clearly someone with no principles and very weak reasoning.
We’ve heard their tripe many times. I read it on the newspaper comments boards even now. The regretful Brexiteer meme played out by the committed Europhile.
If you can’t go for the arguments, go for the man.
Are you referring to tim cole, or the author of the article?
He lost me at “purple-faced golf club bores”. My dear, those ghastly people!
JF
My experience is that the leaver group included people from all strata of society, and I met hundreds face to face while plodding the streets with leaflets.
I don’t think he has no principles….but I do think with all sincerity that I hardly ever Leave supporters whether on social media or just chatting in ‘real’ life ever mention the Empire as much as Remainers do.
It’s the same with wanting to be a Bertie Big Boots in the world…. Leavers are not bothered about this
We can leverage our position as the Norways, Switzerlands, Canadas do, and with more heft with which to do it than they have…. and leave the ideas of a European Superstate to rank with the USA, China and possibly India to the Neo-Imperialists amongst the usual suspects of High Remainerism.
I would posit that regardless of the outcome in this whole terrible and pointless process of a nation unnecessarily and wantonly tearing itself apart, the biggest failure is one of trust. Would it be so hard to accept the voracity of the author and the article, even if you disagree with them?
For what it’s worth I see the same issues whichever side of the Brexit divide you sit on. One thing’s for sure: this country will not heal (and heal it must) unless we can all learn to listen to, understand and accept each other better.
Oh, NOW Remainers think listening to others is a good idea.
It’s a pity you spent the last 4 years telling people they were thick, racist and ignorant rather than listening to the actual reasons people voted leave.
Terrific comment.
I totally agree with this. I also note that many of the positions taken under this article major on trade. If the EEC had simply remained a trading ‘collective’ with increased buying power for the good of all members and free trade among members, then there would be little concern about being part of it. However the monster that grew from the EEC dominated many aspects of our democracy and neutered our sovereignty. A federal europe has long been the spectre, and given the way the sands moved with the tides of trade as a European block, there was no other way to go. So in the famous words of several dragons “I’m out”. Oh and yes there will be gains and loses, winners and losers but these matters have an osmotic nature so right themselves in the end.
Well put… and remainers trying to use the last 4 years, or the first couple after Jan 1st as the period judge success or not are just trying to rig the argument in advance.
This is total revisionism. The leave campaign very clearly made the case that a deal as good as being part of the EU would be struck; that it would be easy and quick; that the country would be better off. Not after any transition period, not on leaving, not after some later-to-be-determined number of years. You can’t blame remainers for rigging the argument when leave set the standard
“SOME people in the Leave campaign made the case that a deal as good as being part of the EU would be struck.”
There, fixed it for you.
I don’t think either side were particularly honest; are they ever? It becomes about winning. But ,,, most people had a good reason to vote the way they did. Although people do have a tendency to believe what they want to. I just thought that after we adjusted to leaving, the long term future would be brighter for my children. I can’t prove that anymore than remainers can prove it wont be. It was an act of hope because I didn’t like creeping scope of the EU. You get more democracy in smaller units where you can be heard and the connection to leaders is closer and more immediate.
I do believe there is a slide to authoritarianism taking place aided by technology. We gave them the tools and they are going to use them!
I think many of the current issues revolve around the arguments for ‘free movement’ within the bloc. Originally this was expressed via the removal of barriers to goods and capital, thus increasing trade and ‘tying’ countries more closely together and creating interdependence; helping to lance the boil of European competitiveness for global or regional resources, and reducing the imperial instincts of individual countries.
The launch of the €uro was supposed to be the crowning achievement, but the removal of the ability of individual countries to set their own monetary policy created a sleeping beast that awake less than a decade later.
The free movement of people and services is a reductive extension which, while well intentioned, reduces individuals to mobile ‘blocks of money’, and creates an equivalence between people and capital which I think is a neo-liberal dream. People are a nations greatest resource; the flow of the educated young (‘human capital’) from ‘distressed’ European regions to wealthier areas has created systemic and ongoing problems which threaten growth and will become an ongoing problem.
Ed West fears the divisions in the UK and in some ways he is right because those tensions which pre-date BREXIT are now coming into the open. there are many fights to come and they are unlikely to be nice.
Surely the whole point of the EU was to prevent wars breaking out between European states as had been the case for hundreds of years, The two world wars of the twentieth century finally galvanised some european politiians into a project to bind europe together. That started with the coal and steel community and continued on from there, gradually becoming more and more political in its nature.
The current problems experinced by the south european states are a consequence of a failure or the northern states to recognise that you can’t have monetary union without a complimentary fiscal union. In other words Germay will have to pay for Greece to have the things it needs through fiscal transfers. Absent that the southern states are doomed to ever-decreasing living standards because german producivity growth is way ahead of theirs and the Euro means they can’t inflate and devalue their way out of hard decisions.
Two things worry me about Brexit then; 1. I fundamentally do not trust the Conservative party to keep any promises aabout not reducing employment and environmental safeguards for working people. I strongly suspect that to many backbenchers Brexit is the cover they need to be able to do that.
2. The whole “levelling up” agenda is something too complicated and too expensive for this government- and possibly any government to cope with. The discontent that drove the Brexit vote stemmed – in large part from de-industrialisation. The loss of what might be called “proper jobs” as manufacturing industry collapsed due to a lack of vision and of investment, only to re-appear in China. The Covid induced crisis around PPE is a great example of this, we no longer had the industrial base to make it ourselves. So went to the Chinese to buy it , along with everyone else who’d trashed theur own manufacturing base. Post-brexit are we going to rebuild that base from behind high tarriff walls? Or are we going to be “global Britain” and as Rees-Mogg suggests, reduce people’s shopping bills by inporting cheaper food from low cost producers (thereby wrecking our own agriculture)?
I regret that I have but one upvote to give you. Well done, sir.
I can only talk with authority about the area I spent my career in, the media, and latterly (of necessity) the digital media.
Last year Manchester was 2nd only to London as an inward investment city for Digital tech.
That’s 2nd in Europe.
(Ahead of Cambridge as well).
Birmingham is also on the up…as basically *outer London*.
Of course London remains very large and indeed larger than the next three nearest centres in Europe combined (usually Paris, Berlin and Amsterdam (or maybe Stockholm) …these are larger than Manchester but Manchester is growing more quickly
I think the biggest failuyre of the EU has been in digital tech. The largest companies in the world now contain hardly any that were the largest companies in the world in 2000, and they contain none from Europe.
But the largest companies in Europe contain many that were large in 200 and indeed the 1980s.
The EU are basically a protectionist project, protecting old industries and European Agriculture, and it’s almost inevitable in doing this they fail to innovate sufficently in theplaces China and the USA have innovated, and seen their companies leave Europe’s largest far behind.
The narrative of British decline and European burgeoning success just isn’t true any more, or at least perhaps not ‘as true as it was’..
Of course there are companies in Europe doing well…everyone in Britain isn’t doing fantastically…but people shouldn’t be blind to the way that the ‘2nd wave’ of digital media..from video news to games to commerce to medicine to AI to fintech..is both a huge area of growth and one that is happening in Northern cities as well.
The stats are present are backward looking, but the endless talk about the North being destroyed by Thatcher and remaining a desert through the 90s and noughties, is not the whole story today.
Nothing in what I say above is meant to imply that there’s some 1950’s or 1960’s German and Japanese economic miracle happening, but I do feel sometimes we overlook some of what is going on in areas that for whatever reason, Britain does seem have had created a society in which more modern business skills can thrive.
What a splendid comment! From what I can see, I share all of your sentiments and hope your stats are fully robust.
A few years ago, my fintech company was looking for developers and we decided that the best sequence for location was as follows:
1) London – all of the principals and directors live in the south east, and we could find first class skills in the London market. But they are q
” Surely the whole point of the EU was to prevent wars breaking out between European states as had been the case for hundreds of years.”
The EEC did that adequately, without us becoming a supranational corporate club with a democracy deficit.
Likewise, I think it’s unfortunately necessary to leave the EU, as an entity it lacks a democratic core, and it’s inevitable destination is a United States of Europe but without the democracy.
That, quite frankly, terrifies me, and I can only think it will all end up very not good!
However our politicians need to be honest, it’s going to have a huge negative effect on the economy, which couldn’t have arrived at a less opportune moment.
I’m afraid that the article’s argument fell over when it typified the leaders of the EU mindset as “prone to groupthink; they form their own orthodoxies because they tend to be sociable and so beliefs become markers of belonging and status.”
It is not just a tendancy to groupthink, it is an active search for the route that gives them the most leverage and enduring power. As the path to building power gets more complicated, so the values and moral compasses of the seekers become more and more corrupted.
Democracy may have its flaws, but fundamentally it allows the electorate to kick the bvggers out when they become stale, lazy or too far removed from the ambitions of the majority.
As far as the EU is concerned, democracy is the smallest of fig leaves.
The unease felt by Ed West is echoed by many of us who not only voted but campaigned for Brexit. Like him we’ve found ourselves with allies we’d rather not be associated with and lost old friends and a few illusions. It’s been bloody but we are reaching the first step into an independent future. When we voted in that referendum we all had a mixture of motivations. Nothing in the last three years has shaken my conviction that in the long run we are better out of the EU. Any association that deliberately seeks to punish former members is akin to a protection racket. There is no guarantee that this country will be more successful outside the EU than it would be had it remained but at least our future once again be in our own hands.
What most of the discussion misses is ‘who will take the pain of Brexit?’ It won’t be the well to do Brexiters, it will be those in manufacturing in the north east, and similar areas, who believed all the nonsense spouted by Johnson and Gove. Brexit is not just a theoretical exercise in sovereignty, it will make poor people poorer.
They chose that path. Sunderland voted to leave despite the concerns of its largest local employer. They can’t even tell you any concrete reasons why they did it. They’d rather be poorer than see the ‘elites’ win. Isn’t that the conclusion to draw?
They consistently give concrete reasons. You just arrogantly choose not to listen.
EU economic policies which drove down labour costs whilst increasing the price of imported goods made already the poor, poorer.
Remaining hitched to the stagnating EU economy would only have done more so.
The first part of that is true but is a limited explanation. Globalism is reducing wages in the west. As for increasing the cost of imports, of Britain opts for no worldwide tariffs then food gets cheaper but local agriculture is in trouble. The EU is a protectionist entity.
Yup. The Eu is a localised version of globalism. By leaving we will attempt to subvert some of that.
When people in media start losing their jobs to cheap imports (not gonna happen) then I think they might change their minds about the benefits of the EU/globalism.
I have no doubt about the hypocrisy of elite classes with regards to immigration.
I think that the EU made a big mistake is opening borders so early to the new European states. But then again it didn’t. That was up to individual States for the first 10 years. And only the UK, Sweden and Ireland (largely because it had to if the UK did) opened up visa free travel. Nobody went to Sweden.
Eastern Europeans flocked to the UK and now Brexit is the result.
Imagine though, for ten years polish people couldn’t travel 100 miles to work in Germany – and nobody thought that weird- but they could go to Blighty. This was Blair’s government.
And still the majority of Remainers are rabid supporters of ‘no borders’. Go figure.
Yes that is true, and of course 85% of World growth is outside the EU.Mind you is is very upsetting for some, that we will be unable to pay into that huge black hole, the EU bailout fund, you know the one with the twelve noughts after the number.!!! Dodged a bullet there.
85% of world growth may be outside the EU but the UK has to get trade agreements with those countries. One of the obvious choices is China which the conservatives were championing a few years ago, but that’s been removed as an option. Meanwhile the EU isn’t as hostile to China and despite the one sided special relationship on that subject America itself isn’t keen on new trade deals and the new admin is hostile to Brexit.
27 countries have signed up so far to roll over agreements that were the same as the EU. The same rules by the way isn’t a bonfire of tariffs. That’s out of 70 leaving 43 with WTO tariffs. That makes the EU more of a world trader than the UK. No new agreements have been signed.
EU membership hasn’t stopped (say) Denmark (in EU but on EZ) from outperforming UK economically.
And so is with Sweden.
The cost of food as a proportion of incomes has fallen dramatically since we joined the common market. Leaving the EU and facing a less than welcoming US and China isn’t likely to send Sterling soaring. Result – pricier imported food.
Or more of our food products grown and processed here?
If the EU was so wonderful why were there already so many poor people in the UK? Over 40 years in the EC/EU and spiralling inequality and the destruction of manufacturing are some of the outcomes.
Is this all the EC/EUs fault? nope, but it’s hard to claim it has been a great success.
The UK has thrived in the EU, if you are to believe the UK Conservative government which throughout its time in power up to the referendum was constantly reporting great numbers. It’s a failure of that same government, which imposed austerity measures that impacted the poorest the most, while blaming the EU for anything negative.
For a lot of things, the UK was the leading economic hub of the EU, and was making massive amounts of money out of it, not to mention the broader political influence it enjoyed as one of the leaders of the largest economic alliance in the world.
Against that backdrop, the UK government was pinching pennies about fraudulent unemployment claimants in the aftermath of a financial crisis. Unemployment was and still is a laughably small part of the budget, but they milked it for all it’s worth.
The money and prosperity was there all along, and the UK government chose to make it unavailable to poor people.
Trye.
Out of the EU makes the UK government more accountable to the electorate. We voted to Leave because we want a return to UK manufacturing. We don’t care how well UK finance did because none of that money made its way down to us.
The obvious response is: If the EU had such power over the UK why has poverty been getting worse here than there since the 1980s? Were they punishing us in advance for Brexit before it happened?
As for spiralling inequality and destruction of manufacturing, those have been Conservative policy since Thatcher’s time. (“There is no such thing as society” all the way to “F**k business”) And they were able to impose those policies precisely because of the UK’s ability to make it’s own laws.
They didn’t have Thatcher.
Average youth unemployment in the Euro Zone averaged 19% these last 20 years. But it is good this great country, has been able to give thousands of jobs to poor young people in Europe who came here.
You mean those low-paid, seasonal jobs that make no financial sense for someone trying to live permanently in this country? Those workers have stopped coming. Did you respond to Farage’s call to go and pick fruit?
I can assure you that those seasonal jobs filled by non-UK nationals carried on in spite of Brexit, and indeed in spite of Covid-19. There may have been a reduction in inward migration, but it is still positive.
I an sure you are aware of the context of both those “quotes”, so selectively mis-quoting them does nothing for your argument and makes you appear stupid
I am aware that they are not “quotes” but actual quotes. I am aware that it is the Tory line that Maggie and Bozzer either didn’t say what they said or didn’t mean what they said. But they did and they did.
I am aware that appearing stupid – to you – and being stupid are two different things and I suspect that you had a weather eye on the Comment Rules when you chose that phrasing.
It was mostly domestic policy. Germany has kept its industry.
This is a falsehood. The EU’s “four freedoms” (which, incidentally, were lifted wholesale straight from the pages of Reaganomics – how very “progressive”) allowed for companies to move (often with grants or loans) industry and manufacturing to poorer nations solely to exploit cheap labour. This has affected Germany too.
But the decision to allow the freedom I was taking about (the right to work of new members), also one of the 4 freedoms, was decided by national governments for the first 10 years after they joined.
Which is why us leaving has forced the government’s hand on that one. You see, democracy does work!
Fair point!
I think a lot of the loss of UK manufacturing jobs lies with Mrs Thatcher’s rigid moneterist policies, whereas at the time other member states carefully supported their industries.
Much of the second phase of globalisation of jobs in the 1990s was again our own politicians allowing so many jobs to be exported to the rest of the world, not just the EU. Yes the EU has followed Neo-Liberal policies and some jobs have gone there, but so much is down to our own politicians. The classic final example of this is when other EU nations were using EU legislation to restrict immigration when the union expanded in the early 21st century, Tony Blair said we would take all the wanted to come here. The consequence, a massive influx of people from Poland and elsewhere which other EU nations did not have. So many of our problems are the result of our own politicians being lazy. One of the benefits of BREXIT is responsibly and accountability stops here in the UK. Only time will tell if this will change things. I am old enough to remember the UK joining the EEC as it was then my fear is we will go back to those days which were uncertain and with little vision for something better.
Tax is a national policy over which each member state has sovereignty (at least for now) Therefore, inequality and poverty are, in the UK, a direct result of UK redistribution and social policy. In other words, our choice. Sweden, France and Denmark are EU members but have much more equal societies but that’s because they make different tax and redistribution choices. It has virtually nothing to do with the EU.
Please tell that to Apple – I’m sure they will be interested – you might mention it to RoI as well.
Pointless – Apple is protect by US GOV. Nothing is stopping UK GOV from taxing tech firms.
Well I just thought they might find it interesting in their current battle with the EU over a mere 13billion euros.
The other thing an effective EU could do is fine the large US tax giants for anticompetitive behaviours as they have in the past. In fact, the US regulator announced yesterday it was investigating Facebook. Watch this space! https://www.google.co.uk/am…
Facebook, Trump is having His revenge by making them Sell Instagram &Whatsapp… Not all US Presidents believe in globalism…
So you’re not just pro brexit you’re pro trump too?
It’s a good point you make. Unfortunately, the best way to stand up to US (as most of them are) multinational tax avoiders is through multilateral tax policy – in other words taxing supply of tech services or taxing the offshoring of profits – legally speaking this is totally achievable but it needs political will and unity. Our not being part of the EU makes it almost politically impossible for us to tax the giants on our own. The EU is the gate keeper to the worlds largest single market so any position they take could have real impact. I suppose being outside we could leverage a tax arbitrage situation but that won’t help get tax dollars for the UK!
My memory is getting worse but I recall we’re going to be implementing a transaction type tax on Amazon. Could be the Government have changed their minds.
I keep seeing this and its so wrong. China is bigger in people terms, so is India. A large percentage of the people in the EU do not have the sort of disposable income that we, the French, German, Spanish or Italians posses.
You think France is equitable?
Tax is not the issue. By the time you’re relying on tax to sort a society out its anyway de facto screwed.
A perhaps fantasy world is one in which people work hard and earn a fair wage.
Redistribution is a soft term for tax the middle to pay for a few of the lazy
Well apparently that’s down to Thatcher. Still. After all these years.
It certainly won’t be the well to do remainers. I agree some of what’s left of our manufacturing base will suffer. One major casualty will be the automotive sector because the sweet dear EU made a trade deal with Japan who now no longer need to manufacture in the EU.
Electric Cars take 63% more power to produce, UK needs to build 8 nuclear power stations,to power them,deadline cant be met in 2030 maybe 2050..
I am looking for Bookies all over the UK who are willing to take bets that , leaving the EU will make people in the UK poorer , over 1 year ,3 years, 5 years, 10 years 20 years etc. so please rush me their details, I am getting desperate now..
We have the ability to be world beating but unfortunately the Conservative party see these world class companies as a pawn on getting “investment” into the Country. Their free market ideology disappeared a long time ago. Am I the only person puzzled by their need to seek new Markets outside the EU while committing genocide on the very Companies we need to do this?
Yes lets have People traffickers dump thousands more on uK, twerp ..Remainiacs lie,cheat at every oppurtunity ..Davey,Blair,Major , trying to get EU to impose tariffs on UK and undermining Democratically elected government IS treasonous…
Most of our manufactured products are sold in the UK. We keep getting told that there will be a shortage of products from the EU. This is great news for manufacturing in the UK and, in actual fact, will mean better employment prospects for the working class, not less.
The “take back control” mantra is not only boring, but utterly wrong. NO nation has total control over everything it does. You can’t trade with anyone if they won’t do so on terms you accept. You can’t have unilateral control over immigration without consequences. You can’t, in short, function independently of all other states. This was always true, but even moreso in the modern world.
The much-vaunted “trade on the Australian system”, which we have suddenly started hearing about, is actually trade without agreement – the WTO rules. Anyone who favours this should try food shopping in Australian supermarkets (which I have). The prices will make your eyes water.
While as an Australian who spends long periods in the UK, I agree that the cost of living in Australia is considerably higher than in the UK, but it is not for those who earn the higher Australian salaries, which includes shop assistants and farm workers. In addition, most fesh produce eaten by Australians is grown and produced in Australia, not imported from countries with dubious labour laws and very low wages.
According to some Brexiters the ability to import without tariffs from across the world, without requiring labour standards to be equivalent, is precisely one of the advantageous aspects of ‘taking back control’.
The point is Martin, the choice is ours to make.
Name one.
Well I stopped reading before I reached the end of the first line – boring.
David, no one is punishing anyone. The problem lies in the Brexiteers’ assertions that it is possible to enjoy all the benefits of being in a club without signing up to the obligations that go with being a member. There was always this ludicrous, arrogant assumption that ‘they need us as much as we need them’. That was never the case, as events now demonstrate.
Timothy if the EU aren’t trying to punish us why then do they insist on keeping some of the UKs waters, having an EU office in Northern Ireland and restricting our ability to decide for ourselves when companies need propping up.
The disparities within the EU are clear to see, Greece bankrupted and lots of major assets now in German hands. The EU is a club with various levels and those at the top table are not interested in sharing or being equal with those further down the pecking order. We might not get rich from getting out but at least we can make our own decisions.
Hi Brian,
Let me answer those q’s for you.
a) one ALWAYS takes one’s own interests most at heart in negotiations. That’s not punishment… that just not giving everything away without keeping what you believe is fair to yourself
b) the EU is all about the common market and how nothing can come between that. It is a protectionist state. That means that when you step out of it, it will protect itself against you.
With that in mind: we will always be able to prop up our companies… it’s just that the EU will then levvy taxes when we export so we don’t undermine their companies.
c) NI is a bit of a difficult one isn’t it. Because there is no way to patrol all of the borders… and that means that if the (here it comes again) common market is broken there, then they have a problem. And the big problem is that miracle of suddenly having a system in place that would magically scan all goods moving across the border has not materialized…. so the EU needs to patrol borders without setting up a border (due to GF Agreement).
I’ll grant you fishing rights. I too think it’s preposterous that the French feel they have the right to fish in our waters. However within this is another problem which is that large companies have sold their quotas to EU fishing co mpanies.
That the EU is not perfect is very clear. But blaming the EU solely for the problems in many a south european country is also not fair. Yes – I think the Euro is great for big multinationals but ultimately not helpful for the rest. Countries that need to depreciate should be able to do so – but then they should step out of the Euro (which they do not want because it’s also beneficial). The UK was not in the Euro so it would not have this problem. Greece, like Spain, and Italy have the problem that they bind too much to government and from the start did not adhere to the monetary rules that were set out. If you can’t live up to the obligations, you should not join that part of the club. They could have done the same as the UK, but the Drachme, Lire and Peso were already quite worthless on the market so they wanted to have a strong coin. The price they need(ed) to pay was something they did not think about enough.
Choices have consequences….
Anyway – I hope that it turns out okay – but whatever FTA we make – it will always have to be governed by a body outside of our own (meaning that we are ‘giving up sovreignity).
a) why do comments from EU officials seem to indicate that we must be made to suffer
b) will they pay us taxes when their countries give illegal state aid – please do not pretend it hasn’t already happened
They will if the UK imposed a tarriff on state aided companies.
The main problem with the EU has always been the French in my opinion.
Two things: firstly, if any governing body always promotes its own interests when hammering out trade deals, then why are the UK haters within our own country filled with such venom when our negotiators also follow this rule?
Secondly, a FTA doesn’t mean giving up sovereignty – by any stretch of the imagination.
I think the French fishermen shed considerable light on the nature of these negotiations, because the ownership of British waters is unambiguous. So the French argument cannot be based on rights – it must be based on expectations about how hard the EU will negotiate to force concessions from us on fishing. I voted remain because I figured the EU, being bigger, would have a stronger negotiating position. However they undoubtedly have difficulties of their own and I still hope I am wrong, and that they need a deal as much as we do. For me, from the outset, the whole thing has boiled down to strength of negotiating positions. As you say different states have different interests and will always look out for their own. Why would they give up on French fishing communities if they don’t have to? Boris’s recent shift from accepting 60% of our fish back to 35% of our fish back demonstrates the EU’s ability to get continuing access to our fishing waters not because it is their right, but because it is a price Boris is willing to offer to get a deal.
They are trying to negotiate on the waters. Standard practice when a deal (which includes fishing now) is being renegotiated.
The northern Irish office was something the Tories has previously agreed to.
And the state aid is also standard negotiating on trade deals. Why would they allow themselves to be undercut?
Perhaps you should explain Why EU trawlers are allowed 7x catch of UK trawlers 2) Selling back our own fish is NOT good for uk balance of payments £4billion + 2) Conservation of stocks
Except the EU allows state aid for its members when it sees fit.
How about:
We would like to keep the benefits we joined for and are happy to pay for that. We do not want all the extras you’ve added over the years which provide costs without commensurate benefits.
Then we don’t get a deal.
Then No Deal sounds perfectly reasonable.
Perhaps, but I wonder if the referendum question had been: ” Do you want to be ruled from Brussels as part of a political union from which there can be no departure?” – what the vote would have looked like?
The overwhelming majority of this country just do not want to be part of a transnational super state ruled from Brussels.
Also: what discussion has seriously been had and/promulgated to the country at large, about the what the future of the EU looks like? Very little, if any.
Go figure.
“ruled from Brussels as part of a political union from which there can be no departure” – er, ruled to what extent?
1. Who’s decided our monetary and fiscal policies for the last 50 years? The policies that drive everything else.
2. Who pursued the ideological destruction of mining and manufacturing – most of it in the midlands, north and Scotland?
3. Who decided to ignore the transitional limits and allow unlimited immigration from eastern Europe in the belief that it would be minuscule? And not to expel the “economically inactive” – a dreadful term but it’s how governments ascribe value to human beings. And failed to plan for it?
4. Who created the housing bubble, the financial crash and the austerity that followed?
5. Who launched an ideological assault on local authorities in the misguided belief that the market will provide? Ok it provided the Grenfell Tower disaster, a housing crisis, record homelessness….
The EU or successive UK governments?
Grenfell Tower cladding was changed by ALL political parties,as ”Environmentally safer”… The Amount of deaths is A lot higher,as illegal immigrants were put up by others..As first mentioned in london Fire brigade, 42 deaths in one row of flats,which hasn’t been persued..
We originally joined the EEC, grew uneasy with a stealthy quite honestly deceitful creep into a Political Union.
The EU have established a huge trading surplus with one of its biggest markets. Trade works both ways, if they want access to our markets they must offer access to their’s respecting our newly found independence and sovereignty, as they do with Canada. Amongst others.
Club?
They will when they find the PIIGS cant pay their subscription fees and cant repay the loans. I can pass on German marques, French wine, Greek olives and whatever else we will be “short of”. The traders in the EU wont want to sell us their wares any longer? Are you aware of how stupid that sounds? “Oui, I will make those damned Englishmen pay and write of 50% of my produce as I will not export to those pesky English”. Trade is as old as time. A product is offered, a price agreed, a method of delivery established, the product arrives and is paid for. The ports are no more likely to boycott British goods than we would European. Free market capitalism will always flourish. Foregoing Strawberries for Christmas pudding is a small price to pay for an end to the corrupt and overbloated EU. Facing the sea and trading with the world is what England excelled at. There was life, wealth and trade long before the iron and coal club was launched. There will be life, opportunities and new wealth after we have ditched the EU. It has been an unhappy marriage since day 1. Herr Merkel’s plan to import more than 1.5 million unknown, unstable, poorly educated, low or unskilled, unable and unwilling to integrate, law ignoring, highly benefit reliant prolific breeding Africans came at a price. The thought that the German car market will leave vehicles standing to rot in hundreds of acres of storage because Johnny English left their club is remarkably unlikely as it would be stupid. There was a time when we built the finest of almost everything. There is no reason to suggest we can not do that again. Necessity is the mother of invention.
As far as I am aware no true Brexiter ever wished to leave the lame duck EU and enjoy “all the benefits of being in a club without signing up to the obligations that go with being a member”. We wanted out. We were warned by Cameron’s flyer that this was a once in a lifetime to decide if we chose to leave or stay. We listened to hideous Gideon that overnight thousands of jobs would evaporate and an “emergency budget” would be needed to recoup the “benefits” we would lose. We even baulked at the nerve of Barry Soetero declaring we would be at the back of the queue for any trade deals. We weighed up the incoming Tsunami of the collapse of the United Kingdom that would befall us were we to have the audacity to want to go our own way and like the Y2K millennium bug it didnt happen. No planes fell out of the sky and no ATM’s started dishing out free money. It came and went like a damp squib. Those who the vote went against should start rowing the boat instead of rocking it. After the Great War is was predicted that England would never recover from the loss of so many Sons and the cost of war. We rose after 1918 as we rose after 1945. It is what we English do. We smile in the face of adversity – meet it head on, defeat it and get on with our lives. Doubting England has always been a bad bet. Being English is about as good as it gets. For those who understand, no explanation is necessary – for those who dont, no explanation is possible.
The whole point of a club is that each member should follow and adhere to the same rules. Ironically Britain was very good at this, often ridiculously so in that we gold-plated even the most arcane legislation coming out of Brussels.
On the other hand the EU and numerous member states (France for example) are serial and selective rule breakers. Just look at their outrageous attempt to deny Britain the use of state aid, while arrogating the option to themselves. It is clear Britain must be punished for daring to leave; perhaps like France, Ireland or the Netherlands we should have kept on having referendums until what the EU considers the “right result.
The EU’s true colours are on display, with devious France pulling the strings. Imperfect though Brexit may turn out to be, better off without them. I hope they can adapt their diets too.
And Uk Taxpayers pouring in £600 billion since 1973 together with Mays treasonous Withdrawal (Remain) agreements..like A turkey it is ”Oven ready disastrous”
There is no assertion that it is possible to enjoy all the benefits of being in a club without signing up to its obligations, Canada hasn’t done this, Japan hasn’t done this and the US hasn’t done this. We don’t need to either. However, there is a lot of manufacturers within the EU who are going to be pissed of with European Commission for wanting to cut its own nose off just to spite its face.
I think we could have the best of both worlds. Obviously as a tiny economic agency compared to the EU, the UK will have sovereignty only over its future world trade poverty. But what if the UK was to create a NEW EU (“NEU” by the way is German for “New”!). Just as the Deutschemark was renamed the Euro, the Brits could rename the pound to be “The Neuro“. We could invite the other disgruntled countries of Europe to join us, and create the NEU to be what the EU wasn’t, obviously without all those “unelected officials” etc. Nigel Farage could write the NEU Constitution to avoid those past errors. What do you think?
This possibility is something I have been thinking about for some years: that the rigid over-centralised EU could break up, with former members willing to coalesce in a looser association of individual, historic nations. That could be the sort of grouping that would appeal to the UK, and I intuitively sense quite a number of current EU countries too. No idea whether it will ever happen, though.
PS: The UK is obviously much smaller than the EU, but it still seems to come in at number 5 in world GDP (between Germany and France).
Yeh but gdp is a power relationship. The UK is both 5th in the world and about 2% of world GDP.
saying you are the 5/6th largest economy in the world is like finishing 5th in london marathon. On one actually cares.
You have to be big enough to shape global regulations/rules – UK is not.
But I am afraid it’s not like the London marathon at all. That’s nonsense, even if you’re trying to make a statement about the UK not being that powerful.
By that simile, only the country at the top matters. Which is mental as the US though important doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Nor does any country.
It is about who set global rules of competition. UK will be a rule taker and not a rule maker.
Does it truly matter to you (or anyone in UK) that East Asia dominates the electronic industry and the rules/regulation about the industry (finished products and components)?
Of course that matters – but it is also one facet – among many others that make up an economy, and the hierarchies between economies. Unlike the London marathon
Asia dominates the manufacture of electronic goods. It does not dominate in the standards for those goods.
You could argue if China is not at the top yet it is about be..and most projections have India overtaking the US somewhere around the same timespan as we are now from the Millennium Eve firework displays.
Global trade & standard regulations are shaped by WTO and UN agencies. The EU basically rubber stamps them. By leaving the EU we get our seat back at the top tables (which was subsumed to an EU seat under the Lisbon Treaty.)
No the EU doesn’t rubber stamp trade agreements agreed by the WTO and “UN agencies”.the UN has nothing to do with trade agreements. I mean do you think the UN is coming up with the post Brexit trade agreement? Trade agreements are agreed between countries or trading blocks. It’s only when that fails that WTO rules apply.
What “seat at the top table”. Meaningless cliche. The UK does have to renegotiate agreements on its own but that’s clearly harder than being part of a larger block.
Interesting to get downvoted here. If people really believe that the WTO and UN agencies decide most trade deals then why the angst about the present discussions? In fact why are the discussions happening at all in their present form between the EU and the UK? Anybody who downvoted want to explain their position?
That’s like saying it is of no importance that, say, Singapore has a high standard of living. You might not care, others might not care, but the Singaporeans don’t care what you and the others think.
The PWC projections for largest economies show only two European countries in the top ten by 2050..the UK at tenth and Germany at 9th… (they’re 9 th and 5th right now) and Japan will be 8th.
China will be challenged by India and the USA in 3rd
The G7 (Us, UK, Germany, Japan, Canada, Italy) by 2040 could be half the size of the E7 (China, India, Indonesia, Brazil, Russia, Mexico and Turkey)
France would fall from the top ten(to 12th) Italy fall out of the top 20 (12 to 21) and Spain struggle to stay in the top 30 falling from 16th
These incoporate demographic changes but it’s clear that even staying in the EU isn’t a guarantee of having the heft to shape global regulations. The EU in 2050 will fall to around 5% of Global GDP.
The fasted growing large economies in Europe to 2050 are predicted to be Poland and the UK.
None of the above is an argument to NOT try and have very close relationships with the EU and EU countries…but close relations with say India and Pakistan, Vietnam , Nigeria and the Phillipnes will also be important.
Saying the UK has the 5th largest GDP in the world is akin to saying that RBS was the biggest bank in the world in 2008
IN 2050 the UK is expected to fall to tenth in the world….and Germany fall further to 9th.
The idea that the EU is somehow going to have a big shout is itself laughable…by 2050, and that process is happening now, the EU could account for around 5-6% of global GDP…that will not be enough to impose things on a still powerful USA and the even more powerful China and India…like the UK, and Switzerland, Norway, canada etc the EU will be leveraging position.
It will not be imposing standards
I think I’d like a puff in whatever you’re smoking
The UK’s economy is larger than 22 of the EU’s other 27 members combined.
No, it’s not, and I am surprised your comment got so many likes with no-one correcting you. Based on exchange-rate-adjusted nominal GDP estimates that is probably true, but that’s not a proper way to rank economies. The IMF real GDP on a purchasing power parity basis estimates for 2020 show the UK economy is only larger than the smallest 16 of the EU’s member states (from the Czech Republic to Malta). If one looks at the 22 smallest states, the largest of which would be The Netherlands, they collectively have more than double the real GDP of the UK. The World Bank and the CIA World Factbook have slightly different measures of GDP on a PPP basis, but their results are very similar to those of the IMF.
Thats because brexit voters tend to be hive minded and insecure people who need their world-view reinforcing. Unfortunately, most of us who believe in facts and logic are too obsessed with being polite to push back.
That sounds like Remainers to me, who have spent the last 4 years pissing their knickers and doing their utmost to overturn a democratic mandate AND failing miserably.
But the main point remains ..that the UK is much smaller than the EU but not *tiny*.
And in some key areas like Digital tech and of course financial and associated services which are very improtant it is a European giant…London larger than the next three digital tech cities combined.
And as the present situation around negotiations shows the *point* of the EU isn’t economic it is political, the weaknesses of the Euro become arguments for a single, central Treasury, and at that point with monetary and fiscal union there will be de facto political union whether of not anyone has articulated it at all, far less debated and put it to a vote.
In that respect there are a whole shoe shop full of shoes yet to fall.
It’s the other 5 that matter.
EEC GDP 30% of Worlds in 1973, 14% &slipping 2020, Brasil,,Pacific Rim countries will overtake it very soon..Why does Trade 1)Require A Flag 2) An Army 3) two dozen buildings in Brussels &Strasbourg?..
Or a new old EU – one in which even certain big EU actors realise that they still have enormous common interests with us and should and need not be trumped or precluded by dogma about the virtues of transnationalism.
My view is that, once we leave and we all see the sun keeps coming up in the morning, the EU actors will eventually find a way of maintaining and nurturing the UK as a firm ally – something I will applaud, for sure.
I don’t think Nigel Farage is quite up to that job, do you?!
He’s the biggest disappointment to me, what has he become?
Indeed.
We don’t need to be part of a political union to have firm allies. The notion is absurd on its face.
The behavior of the EU during trade negotiations indicates that Brexit was worth even more that anyone knew at the time. Attempting to force the UK to adhere to EU standards on any number of issues after leaving the EU takes some pretty big ones. A bully is a bully whether the UK is in the EU or not. At least this way the UK won’t have to knuckle under to EU demands.
This feels like grasping at straws. If there’s to be a deal on trade, you need to agree standards. There’s no surprise to this, there never was. It was also obvious from the start that the EU wouldn’t make life easy for a leaving country.
There is a world of difference between “agreeing on standards” and the EU demands that Britain never change any regulations making its economy more competitive.
They are not ‘demanding’ any such thing. They are simply saying that if we lower standards they reserve the right to recoup the social costs via tariffs, etc. We want sovereignty, but so do they.
They can’t have sovereignty over the UK.
No, you don’t need to ‘agree on standards’. Of course, anyone selling into the EU has to comply with EU standards, but that doesn’t mean you have to apply those standards within your own country. And in some areas such as animal welfare, UK standards are, I believe, higher than EU standards.
Of course it does mean that you need to apply the standards in your own country. It’s a trade deal. How is your foreign trading partner allowed to compete fairly if your local goods are given laxer treatment than imported ones?
I would be happy to accept the while “level playing field” idea is a) the EU had to use our standards if higher than the EU’s and b) it was arbitrated by an independent court not the ECJ
So every third party nation has signed a trade deal committing to the same standards domestically as they hold for EU products. Are you really sure about that?
If you want the level of frictionless access that the UK currently enjoys and would like to retain, then yes, standards need to be pretty much the same. The alternative is strict border checks between the UK and the EU, to make sure that sub-standard products from one don’t enter into the other.
I want German beer standards in Germany. French wine and cheese standards in France, U.K. standards in the U.K.-as long as Brussels attempts to homogenize everything this battle will continue, and grow…
Can’t we think of anything more important than who eats what?
Obviously who drinks what is of the most supreme importance.
Eating comes second
For the under 25s, who eats and drinks what obviously come a distant second and third.
We are talking about principles…are we not?
I want to be able to buy a nice pork chop with a kidney in it (apologies to any children under 60 Years old ) !!
There are plenty of areas where our standards are higher than the EU’s. I’m a Plumbing & Heating engineer and the standard of materials that have flooded the UK market from the EU since the signing of the Maastricht Treaty is extremely shoddy.
Your second point is on target. Your first is baloney. The US doesn’t agree standards with the EU inside the US and it does quite a lot of trade with it.
The EU and the USA don’t have a frictionless border with seamless transit and no checks like the UK and EU have currently. If you want diverging standards, you will need a hard border where everything gets checked to make sure it’s not substandard.
The UK has already left the EU. Trade between the two was always going to change. No one expects a frictionless border between them just like Australia doesn’t have a frictionless border between it and the EU. Neither does the US.
That’s completely untrue – a litany of brexiters were adamant that the UK would continue having unfettered single market access. Arguably most famously, Boris Johnson talking about having the cake and eating it. The US and Australia are far away and trade comparatively little with the EU and they are looking to improve their situation by removing obstacles to trade. Exact opposite of what the UK is imposing on itself.
Can you name a single country that has unfettered access to the EU market without knuckling under to everything the EU demands and/or without tariffs? What does being far away have to do with anything? The US and China are far away from each other as well. The US trades little with the EU?
It is possible to trade with another entity without being part of it. Countries manage it every day all over the world.
The behaviour of the EU in negotiations is no different than the UK: it tries to get the best deal for its stakeholders.
The fact that it has greater negotiating power is why you feel like they are bullies.
It’s also the reason why many remainers thought staying in the EU, where Britain had a big voice to use this greater negotiating power, was much better.
Don’t complain that the EU is doing exactly what you want the UK to do – use all our resources to get the best deal we can.
Strangely enough bullies are often bigger than their victims.
Whilst I’m sure its wrong the impression I gained from Barnier is that his “negotiation” consisted of saying NON.
I don’t think they are bullies. I do think that they might have better negotiators, and that is a shame.
I think they are a gang acting as bullies employing better negotiators who have the built-in advantage of having a commission behind him and 27 countries + Wallonia.
Varoufakis advised us not to get entangled in negotiating their way.
No, that isn’t why the UK sees the EU as bullies. Why would you think the UK would acquiesce to EU demands to maintain EU standards after leaving the EU?
It no longer matters what remainers thought. It’s done.
Wrong. The UK isn’t trying to get the best deal for its citizens, if it were then the citizens would get a chance to accept or veto. So much for the “democracy” lie they peddle
Yes, blame the pesky EU again….
That’s all they know how to do. The problem I have is the lack of pushback from our side
I think of Ed West is a smart man and a great writer so I must say that I’m quite surprised he wrote that “As global trade has become more complicated, so the rules and bodies behind them have had to become more arcane; governing and rule-making in the 21st century has to be beyond the understanding of most people.”
I’ve taken the time to avail myself of trade policy and law and its actually not very complicated at all. The deals are only so voluminous in rules (and total number of pages) because they pertain so many individual things. All of which can be understood by almost anyone (I’ve read much of NAFTA, USMCA, TPP, and trust me, its all straightforward, just with some ambiguities written into some items because they couldn’t agree and will do future wrangling), its no different than a nations legal code, anyone can understand each individual piece but don’t have the time, so they just influence it through their electoral process.
Take for example CPTPP (formerly known as TPP), well, one of the biggest sticking points (and one I’m particularly against) is its “data localization” provisions, just about everyone in the general population can understand what that means if you explain it to them. It simply means that foreign companies cannot be forced to keep all the data they collect in the host country, that’s basically it.
Tech companies (particularly American ones) want as much data as they can get, but what if the people of South Korea don’t want their personal secrets, medical records, financial history, all their geographic movements, etc. sent to Silicon Valley (and lets be honest, the NSA as well)? Well too bad! We can’t break international law! But this is not needed in the first place, they can welcome Facebook to do business in their country and if they have to build a data center there so be it.
These agreements are not beyond the scope of peoples understanding and they are not more complicated than laws (and by extensions rules and regulations) we’ve influenced through votes on a continuous basis for hundreds of years. The only difference is that some special interests can use them as a vehicle to lock in what they want without any one having a say about it.
We can have free trade without sacrificing democracy, those that tell us different are just special interests (or their agents) who want to trick us into believing that things have gotten more complicated so we have to hand over over power to some remote and arcane body so that they can get more of what they want. But things have not gotten more complicated and we can do trade with democracy.
You’ve nailed it really. There’s always an excuse to take away power from the common person and unsuprisingly it always ends up with the same old people. This has happened from ‘divine’ Kings and Priests down to todays CEOs, financial industry and bureaucrats. The rather pathetic veneer over naked power grabs has taken many guises from God’s will down to the ‘protecting’ the peasants from themselves and todays’ international ‘trade’ agreements.
The idea that democracy must give way to international trade is particularly pernicious. In the case of the UK international trade is a euphemism for market access for UK financial institutions whilst sacrificing UK industry, farming and in one case literally giving the fish away. So a few super rich spivs and sod the rest?
When people try to sound reasonable and fair whilst removing people’s right to vote or free speech, they’re only ever talking about other people – never themselves.
Thanks Luke, you’ve nailed why I don’t believe the author was ever a Brexiteer in the first place. From thinking that democracy was important to saying ‘oh well international trade is too important and complicated so we should give it up’ is quite a turnaround. Unless of course they never really believed the original stated position.
He didn’t fool me either. He couldn’t resist a few giveaways.
Global trade has become more complicated BECAUSE of these sort of arcane super-states busying themselves with justifying themselves. It’s a chicken and egg situation; complex trade and manufactoring rules favour big companies, who lobby supra-national bodies to make it more complex.
In the ‘fight’ against Covid, what was the WHO doubling down on? Fat in foods, drinking and smoking.
We don’t NEED such bodies.
You missed one other key factor. If the language and the documents weren’t so arcane how could the writers and interpreters of them justify their salaries?
It’s almost as if he’s not as clever as he thinks and maybe, just maybe, he didn’t ever really support Brexit as his assertion that he is concerned for nation state democracy gets quickly ditched due to a lack of control on trade (which you disagree with) and the fact that he now ‘feels European.’
If he ever believed in Brexit then I doubt his intellect to explain his conversion, and I also doubt his strength of character for shamelessly deciding that democracy isn’t as important as he thought.
I live in an EU country (Holland). On the short term, this will hurt a lot, because of leaving the EU internal marketplace. However we live in another era then when the EU was conceived. Today, technology provides for building quicker alliances with other countries and with needing a lesser level of trust (think of bitcoin technology).
The reason I ‘dig’ the brexit standpoint is that technology is coming more and more into the equation, which brings “off-the-scale” opportunities AND threats: It gives control to a very limited number of people. The only thing standing between the individual and omniscient technology is a very strong democracy. This democracy should lie not higher than at a national level, but preferably on a regional level. Otherwise government turns into an administrative moloch living in a separate universe, alike a multinational. And technology can facilitate in just that if we organise our societies in the right way. I believe that in hindsight this era may well be a turning point.
I think Britain will have a hard time, but it is never a bad idea to regain control of your country and choose for a perhaps less perfect or less efficient future, but with the ability to take your own course. The only reason this is being so difficult is because the EU realises that if this goes easy, other countries can follow. Take a good look at the countries that are within the EU, and I assure you in time, maybe not in the near future, but it can be in 10 years or 20, EU goals will not align at all with individual countries’ goals. Most likely economically, but it can be in all sorts of areas.
PS: fighting multinationals, where they pay taxes and how they handle data etc. requires cooperation and has proved tough within the EU, but doesn’t necessarily have to be tougher outside the EU. As if those goals suddenly don’t align anymore.
I think there are only two outcomes for Britain which will really suit the EU agenda: humiliation or failure. Currently they are doing their best to make us choose one or the other. A lesson to anyone else who thinks of leaving.
Neither is in the interests of either Britain or the countries that make up the EU.
Britain never had a useful move, because its “red lines” make none of what it wants realistically achievable. Failure is guaranteed a priori. Humiliation is just a substitute word for going through the stages of grief of finally realising this, as the author of this article has.
Even if some consider “no deal” to be the best option which will ultimately be a great success, rather than a failure, that’s not possible either due to the Northern Ireland issue – the result would be a border in the Irish sea, which is a monumental failure in itself.
Well, not everyone treats politics as a realm of overwhelming emotional commitment, as you do. I am as cold as ice, when I say that the freedoms allowed by the UK being soveriegn, having been thrown away, are far more valuable than any vacuous, boring, unimportant ‘Trade Deal’. No fully competent human being ever really cared about the latter.
Read my second paragraph.
If you are ice cold as you say (I take your word for it) you seem to ignore that every major decision is a British deicision
-taxation
-NHS, Pensions
-education, job training
-CAPEX and R&D
– labour reforms
-iraq, Libya, Siria
– monetary and fiscal policy
-commerce and business law
What am I missing – VAT on tampons’?
VAT itself. It was a requirement of joining the EEC.
No, what you’re missing is we don’t want to be a member of a corporate club that habitually uses its ECJ to rule in favour of corporations over and above Trade Unions and ordinary people. A supranational entity that was set up specifically with the exploitation of cheap labour in mind.
We voted Leave in David Cameron’s “in or out” referendum. The political, corporate, financial and judicial Establishment’s efforts to sabotage this – aided and abetted by those intolerant authoritarians masquerading as “progressives” amongst the middle classes – does nothing to detract from this fact.
Well, let me attempt to change your mind back again, that the instinctive decision of a sliver-thin majority was in fact the best available to the UK in the 21st century.
One of the loudest and most often repeated agonised refrains I have heard from dismayed pro-EU people I have discussed the roller-coaster with is: Leaving is going to make us very much poorer. But the evidence, hiding in plain sight, is that since the dawn of the 21st century, the EU is in fact well on the way to making Europe poorer and powerless. Let me point to Tech to illustrate, see if you can offer an explanation that the evidence of my eyes is nothing to do with the EU.
Example: no Tech giants originating from the EU. No European Tech companies in the global top 20 and in fact only a tiny smattering in the top 100. Why do you think that is? And this is notwithstanding top quality intellectual firepower available across Europe and the huge pool of tech talent that still exists across Europe and especially in the UK. The EU, for various reasons, shows all the signs of already having as good as lost the Tech war. Tech stands in contrast to global European companies in every other 20th century domain, Manufacturing, Pharma, Banking/Finance, Energy, Mining etc.
And the long term meaning of this failure to comprehend and contend with the realities of the 21st century? Total tech dependence on external tech, primarily US and to a lesser extent Far Eastern. No longer a player in creating the tech driven world of the 21st century. Which is a recipe for powerlessness. And soon enough will determine if you have control over what social models you can create. The only big weapon in Europe’s armory at the moment is that they are wealthy buyers of Tech, and the Tech giants covet this market. But this is mechanically set to reduce as Tech markets grow worldwide, and European wealth declines on the back of European lack of growth. So the EU is now busy creating Tech regulation frameworks with the aim of regulating externally owned, bought-in tech, so it doesn’t carve up it’s existing non-hightech industries and sectors with disruption – in effect the embrace of a management-of-decline mentality. It imagines it’s frameworks will influence the US and China (ha!), but is doing so not from a position of strength, but to regulate a vacuum. The EU nations are living on the borrowed time of past wealth, they just don’t know it yet.
And the EU’s responsibility in all this? It’s the agglomeration of the various technocratic components and values of the EU, not organic but engineered and all imposed from on high, sans direct demos as you say, – the Euro, the love of bickering (having got fed up of blasting each other for centuries), the ringfence of structures to ensure that no one jumps the gun, the focus on becoming a sausage factory of regulation rather than one of innovation, and to pick one topical policy bind, state aid and level playing field stuff, so lets look at that as an example of how the EU disables via it’s technocratic minutiae.
There is an inherent contradiction at the heart of EU state-aid and state-subsidy rules. The EU doesn’t prevent state involvement in industries but the rules are about as useful as a chocolate teapot. The EU insists, in the situation where a state takes a stake in a business, it must behave exactly like any other company in the free market, lest non state actors (potentially from other countries) are at a competitive disadvantage. That is, state involvement mustn’t distort the free market. This would for example prevent any EU nation from doing what Churchill did, when he bought out BP for national strategic reasons rather than to make a profit. But there are two other huge problems with EU level playing field rules:
1) if state-backed action into an industry mustn’t distort the free market, then what exactly is the point of any state government taking such actions?
2) The EU has become so concentrated on preventing companies from each others countries from disadvantaging each other that they’ve become oblivious to the fact that they have been getting stuffed by developments outside Europe for two decades.
The EU has in effect formed a circular firing squad. The UK’s attempt to break out of the losing spiral may or may not work. But better than going gentle into that good night.
‘Circular firing squad.’ Apt, vivid, memorable.
An excellent summary.
I saw it my self at first hand in telecoms. The EU attempting in cahoots with European manufacturers attempting to ring fence the European Market oblivious to the fact that Far East manufacturers were set first to eclipse and them annihilate the European mobile handset industry
Interesting points – but it’s not clear that the rise of ‘Big Tech’, wherever it has happened, has been to anyone’s advantage except that of Big Tech.
I’m under no illusions whatsoever that ‘Big Tech’ will lead to a more equitable world – I don’t think that is remotely the case. I have a four decade background in computing and electronics, and a long engagement with the machine intelligence and automation debate, and I have flipped 180 degrees in the last decade or so, from being a big tech optimist, to reluctantly coming to the conclusion that ever-accelerating tech-driven change is going to be disastrous for huge tranches of humanity, because most of humanity cannot adapt fast enough to avoid getting hurt.
But that is a debate for another day. One thing I do know: Europe falling behind in the Tech War means Europe’s influence will fade and it’s wealth and options will be truncated. If they want to accept that because those are the values of the EU, then that is fine. I don’t see that we in the UK have to make the same choices.
Ah, so it’s all about rats and sinking ships… well, I guess that makes it easier to stomach. In a way. Thanks…
Rage! Rage!….
Your excellent comment reminded me of a programme I saw a few years back about the rise of the British Empire. The commentator posed the question how did the British manage to supplant the French as the world power. From memory it was something to do with the development of cannon technology which had improved to the point that the Royal Navy could outgun the French Navy. Apparently, innovation in Britain was relatively free of red tape whilst and improvements to French hardware had to be approved by committees which lead to delays in implementation. In other words, you snooze, ya lose. P.S, it was on the BBC so may not be true. 😉
Indeed. History shows, any bunch of brigands with a technological edge, the guts to take big risks, some nous and some luck, can bring down and plunder entire empires. A similar story against the Spanish Armada, a huge systematic war machine, outmanoeuvred by savvy privateer commanders with a smaller but more agile navy with technological advantages (faster loading cannons, longer range heavy guns etc) and of course luck (the weather forcing the Spanish ships back etc).
Luck and smart commanders play less of a role in the our age of technology though. Just need the superior tech.
I’m the opposite of the author in a way, in that I voted remain, but now feel that we must leave. In part, because leaving the EU should not feel like leaving an empire, and the behaviour of the EU itself towards us should not look like a warning to other vassal states.
Im pro Europe – but I feel that the EU has lumbered Europe with a project which most people do not want in its present form. One onto which a fairly limited European elite has projected its own fantasies.
To read Macron, for example, he seems to see the EU as a means to elevate France from lapdog to Rottweiler, capable of barking at China and the US. Matching political clout to the cultural clout the french, bizarrely, still think they have.
I am sorry to see that you have lost your nerve Ed.
But I still believe that there is no demos in the EU.
I voted for Brexit for the sake of Democracy.
I still believe in Democracy.
So why are you not in favour of having a chance to reject the deal that the tories have negotiated?
Like any article lamenting our departure from the EU, this is full of emotional hyperbole and distinctly lacking in substance. Possibly because the topic is “far more complicated than anyone could imagine,” Ed tells us that there are “enormous drawbacks” without getting into any detail about what these are.
Is the issue that people opposed to something don’t have a coherent or unified view of what should replace it? It was ever thus; most recently with the fall of communism in Europe. Ed seems to have forgotten the multitude of reasons people voted to leave. And do we not walk away from a bad relationship just because it might be hard to negotiate who gets what from the house? On this point, I stand by an article I wrote back in 2016: https://medium.com/@nothowg….
As a sovereign nation, we can more effectively determine if we wish Britain to be global or insular at the ballot box. Brexit might be associated with the Conservative party, but it’s not about conservatism: would the same charge be levelled at Scottish or Catalan independence? Once Brexit is delivered, UK citizens will get an opportunity to vote in 2025 (or earlier) for the sort of politics they want to define their future. There are many parallels with what brought Labour to power in 1945, which through nationalisation and other policies brought seismic change. Yes, the next few months and years will be hard, but I’ve certainly seen nothing that would lead me to regret my decision.
A thought-provoking article. I had friends who voted for Leave and those who voted for Remain. None of them have changed their minds as I suspect it has become part of their tribal identity. It strikes me its a debate between what you are willing to give up in terms of the economy in exchange for sovereignty. What needs to be negotiated are the proportions and over what time frame.
Whether that exchange is worth it is the hottest argument among my friends. My Leaver friends thought sovereignty carried few costs and that Brexit was mainly upside. They believed the EU membership was a drag on the UK and that the money could be directed to better causes. My Remainer friends thought the price was too high and that sovereignty was worthless if it meant damage to their livelihoods. They felt being out of the EU meant the UK would not be strong enough to compete with the US/China. And that being in the EU gave the UK more global clout.
But this argument fall flat among my Leaver friends. Sovereignty for them meant independence and this had great enormous emotional significance. They thought there would be many benefits from lawmaking to immigration. Ultimately the two tribes measure the issues on completely different scales. Both sides will be disappointed if they expect some definitive moment of vindication for Brexit.
“great enormous emotional significance”
Exactly that. Hurrah for England! Now let’s all go celebrate down the food bank.
Negativity writ large. Use 4 words in Mr Creeds 3 paragraphs amplify and undermine.
What a classic left wing agitating position.
Truth hurts doesn’t it?
Not when there’s no truth in it.
I quite like this forum. Most of the comments use argument rather than unfunny mockery, but there are exceptions……
I don’t think it’s funny either. I think it’s pathetic. The whole country sold down the river for the sake of jingoistic bullsh:t that really boiled down to keeping out the brown people. You reap what you sow.
Kevin,
You based in the UK?
That old chestnut. You do realise that the EU is as racist as the day is long, don’t you? Google “how the EU starves Africa” for more information on how the EU dumps surplus food products in Africa to maintain artificially inflated food prices, which in turn puts African farmers out of business.
I love how white middle class people who, on the whole, live in exclusively white middle class enclaves get to lecture the rest of us on our supposed racism.
Clearly, the UK must have less clout on its own. A friend told me that, the day after the 2016 vote, 40 countries were queueing up to make trade deals with us. OF COURSE they were: they will get much better deals with the UK, which has about 10% of the market that the EU had to offer.
When the EU can marshal the economies of several powerful countries, it certainly has clout, but what I started questioning as the years went by is in whose interests that clout is wielded. Major never found his way to the centre of the EU, and nor did Blair, for all their toadying.
From what I was told the original target was 40 rollover deals with 70 countries by 31st March 2019. Its now December 2020, and the UK is at 29 rollover deals with 58 countries.
Won’t less trade help the planet? All those middle class London remainers must be ecstatic.
Not everyone of my friends who voted for Remain were based in London or even concerned about the environment. Many didn’t have strong feelings about the EU either. The reason some voted Remain was because a lot of them had businesses or worked for companies that had suffered because of the financial crisis in 2008 and due to austerity. They didn’t want the risk of more financial instability because they were worried about losing their jobs or businesses and not being able to pay their workers especially after having seen what had happened in the aftermath of 2008.
You have lost a lot of credibility with me for this article. Basically you seem to be saying you want the world back before Brexit dared to reveal the underlying divisions we had. That really is a bit pathetic frankly. What you are saying is yeah I know the EU is undemocratic and that it screws poor people but I was much happier when we were civil to each other so cant we have that again.
How about no, how about thinking outside your pampered little life and thinking of those who are poorer that deserve a voice and don’t deserve to be screwed because you are too gutless to have principles because you want politics to be all nice and faux friendly and irrelevant.
He is kind of saying that. But is it better to have the population so deeply divided in two? It doesn’t look like progress to me. Also I don’t think the EU screws poor people. Yes there are EU migrants who’ll take lower paying jobs, but how many of them are jobs that the Brits want ? I guess we’ll find out soon, but what’s the chances you’ll have immigrants from other parts of the world picking up that slack. More importantly how many more jobs up and down the pay scale will be lost directly as a result of Brexit? Toyota just warned that No Deal puts their plants at risk of closure.
Yeah I’ve written a long post stating that I never believed the author’s original position in the first place. To have a lack of democracy as your defining reason and to then flip it because international trade is complicated and should be beyond normal people, while clearly stating that the EU is heading towards a superstate certainly implies a lack of real honesty.
“having been a full-on Eurosceptic for many years,
The Author’s “fervent Eurosceptism” is notably absent from his articles in the Spectator a few days after the Referendum.
On June 24 2016 the Author already felt “great apprehension about the future”. He also had many reasons for doubting the Leave cause.
By 29 June 2016 he was advocating for a second referendum and joining the EEA. A very odd position for a supposed fervent Eurosceptic to want to be subject to EU law and institutions but without the power to affect them.
That fervent Eurosceptcism was remarkably well hidden.
Brilliant! Thanks for that. No way did the author ever support Brexit. His dishonesty is obvious within the article.
An ignorant person I know accused me of being anti-European and a chauvinist little Englander for having voted for Brexit. I had to point out rather abruptly to her that while I spoke French and Spanish quite well and German and Greek passably, she spoke no language other than English; and thought that gracias was the Italian for thank you. i also read Balzac, Flaubert, Thomas Mann, Kazantzakis and others – even Houellebecq (try him on the EU)- whereas she reads chicklit. I feel completely European and am more comfortable in France than in America. I love France and Spain. But I still think the EU is a protectionist, mercantilist, undemocratic regime. Post Brexit departure will be a mess from which Britain will probably take 3 to 5 years to recover and set a new course. .Size is not everything and the digital world that is bringing about the biggest change since the industrial revolution a sphere in which Britain can and already does flourish. So I remain convinced that Brexit will be proved right in the longer term.
By ‘protectionist’ and ‘mercantilist’, I assume you mean that the EU acts and negotiates as a single trading bloc? Which it does to benefit its member states and is pretty much the primary reason for it’s existence. The component nations are there because they feel membership of a bigger club gives them more clout when negotiating with the likes of China and US. Is it a bad thing to level up the playing field with them?
It’s a democratic institution with an elected parliament. I vote in the European elections, don’t you? The laws it passes are, for the most part, harmless bits of health and safety legislation and trading standards. Nothing that I feel threatens my personal freedoms or national democracy. What greater democracy will you obtain, specifically that improves your daily life?
Btw you’re unlikely to feel so comfortable in France the next time you go, when you’ll need a visa, continental driving license, health insurance etc. Mais say la vee.
The EU is not a democratic institution. The EU parliament has zero democratic legitimacy. Democratic legitimacy is not possible unless there is a untied demos, with a common culture, media, institutions etc. Those things do not and cannot exist at European level
‘Democratic legitimacy is not possible unless there is a untied demos, with a common culture, media, institutions etc.’
That’s a point of view, not a fact. And common culture, media, institutions do exist – it’s a matter of degree, as it is within the UK.
If you asked most people who their MEP was they didn’t know.
‘And yet annoying or unappealing people can be right ” indeed they often are’. In Ed’s case those people were remainers, but I find hardcore leavers more annoying and unappealing – and I say that as someone who voted leave. I suspect most people are neither dyed in the wool leavers nor remainers, but had to come down one way or another on what was inevitably a binary choice. I came down (just) on the side of leave. I still feel entirely European, but that’s all to with culture and history, and nothing to do with any ephemeral political union
I, too, feel European, and am fully aware the numerous interactions over the past few thousand years, but we have links with the world outside Europe, and some are surely even closer, such as, to pick just one, New Zealand. France, too, has a few such global links, but it is interesting to notice that it expects to bind them much more closely through legal means.
I am the other way round – I voted to remain but accepted the result of a popular vote and was appalled by the attempts to reverse or stymie the process of actually leaving. Over time I have come to see a UK outside the EU, but on good terms with it, as the best thing. I was happy being part of the EU when it was 15 member states comprising most of western Europe and Scandinavia. It all started to go wrong with the accession of the former Soviet Bloc countries in the East. These states are 50 years behind the western ones economically and socially, in part due to the former USSR but perhaps there’s also something deeper. Freedom of movement rights resulted in one-way traffic from East to West. After all, to a citizen of the UK, France, or Germany, the prospect of living in Romania or Bulgaria is not particularly appealling – there’s little in the way of skilled work and the social attitudes are what we left behind in the 1950s. Our only gain here was a pool of cheap labour from the East, but at the expense of displacing and alienating our own indigenous lower-skilled workers and overloading our housing supply and associated public services. Breaking the Social Contract, as someone else said above. Result – Brexit and Red Wall Tory voters, and who can blame them?
That’s too true, the idiot Blair bears huge responsibility, of course he’s not living cheek by jowl with Roma gypsies in Page Hall, Sheffield
Is there any point or purpose to this article?
Yes. To tell us we should stay bound to the EU?
Interesting piece. The core question has always been not whether or not we love Europeans but whether or not we want to be ruled from Brussels as efffictively little more than a satrap of a super state, from which we can never depart – having been lied to interminably about the inexorable intention and eventuality.
I know not a single person who voted for Brexit who voted to leave because they hate Europe or Europeans and don’t wish to retain Europe as a very close ally.
Sorry to break it to you Mr West, but we are leaving the EU not Europe. The EU is an artificial trading now political construct that has been arround for 60 years and probably has 20 years tops ahead of it. Europe is a real geographical continent of countries, languages and evolving cultures that has been with us for centuries and will be for centuries to come. GB has been part of it all this time and will be going forward. Earlier this year we celebrated 75 years of VE day not VEU day.
Regards
NHP
It won’t the be Brexiteers fault for problems in the post-Brexit era, it will be the government’s responsibility.
We will have the ability to replace it with a fully-empowered alternative – which is what Brexit was all about.
It was the government’s responsibility the entire time, they just used to blame everything on the EU. But don’t worry, now that they are out, they will continue doing it in the same disignenuous way, just frame it as “waaah, they don’t want us to succeed”
Isn’t that a good reason to leave? No more hiding places for our politicians, or our unCivil Servants.
Not really, because now they just do the same thing by complaining that the baddie foreigners won’t give them what they want.
Hitler never had any foreigners to blame for Germany’s self-inflicted failings in the 1930s but never ran out of “others”
Is that the same “others” the intolerant authoritarians masquerading as “progressives” see the working classes as?
Bigotry by any other name is still bigotry.
No, they didn’t. Up until this government (post December 2019) every government has dragged their feet on the referendum result. In fact, the vast majority of the pre-referendum Tory cabinet campaigned and voted for Remain.
Really?
As a Brexiteer who has not made the same journey, might I gently suggest that this article shares one of the common flaws in most such pieces (and most remainer analysis) of the EU: it assumes that the institution will remain constant or will only evolve in one direction. History tends to be more complex than that, and governments which prove unresponsive to the needs of the people (and which lack a method for error correction) do not tend to last long. I suspect there’s a decent chance that Brexit will come to be seen as a new Reform Act which helped us to avoid the unpleasantness of 1848.
“Yet to some extent it has made many British people feel fully European for the first time, me included. On holiday last year I felt deep regret at the thought of separation from our fellow Europeans…”
It’s OK Ed. You can spare us your magnum opus. Eurosceptics know we are not leaving Europe. The most devoted Remainers, on the other hand, equate the EU with Europe and get emotive, like you. You never were a leaver, though you may not have known it.
“Take back control” was the slogan that resonated in June 2016. It was key. The EU design was to take the sting from national states, and create a non-political universe in Brussels where decisdions would be taken by élites. Whitehall joined the élites and loved it. Westminster languished, as did representative government in the UK. Power centralised in London, complemented by power in Brussels. By 2016, large swathes of the UK population lived on 15 k sterling a year. They voted to get back control. They knew what they were doing.
Oddly enough, I have gone 180 degrees the other way. I voted to stay in, but the more I looked at the EU, the more I realised the project was doomed from the start: it’s a grass house, and deserves to crumble through it’s own mendacity and greed.
Why did I read an after the fact essay by an editor who has let emotion get the better of him.
The fact he seems to have forgotten is there was a referendum and the people made a decision. From then on it should have been and is straight forward. Get out and go for it. I’m from NZ, now living in the UK. We were brexited by Britain in the 1970s. This small country in the middle of nowhere lost by far its largest export partner overnight. Did we sink below the sea ? No, the sun continued to rise and we adjusted and moved on, perhaps doing somewhat better than the UK economically over the last 50 years. Britian will stagger for a while and then move on as we did. Ed West does not understand that national economies are hugely resilient over time, providing govt lets free enterprise pick the right paths naturally through the maze of market forces. If the govt tries to manage the transition rather than simply facilitate it there will be major problems. The NZ govt provided infrastructure and helped business establish new markets.
Really sorry about the way this country, or at least Heath, treated NZ
I don’t believe you can remain indefinitely in a political organisation whose ultimate objectives you disagree with: namely the creation of a pan-European state. They are half way there with the eurozone. A nation that no longer controls its currency is no longer self-governing.
You are correct about the trajectory of EU (ever closer union). As for currency unless you are USA ($ being the global reserve currency), most countries rely on the whims of the market.
If the market turns on you it doesn’t matter that UK GOV can print £. The £ will go down (c.25% since the 2007/8 crash – the worst performing major currency in the world) and inflation will outstrip wage growth – as it has since the 2007/8 crash.
An interesting article, mainly because it’s from someone whose views I’m generally familiar with, and consequently I can’t put any of what’s said down to an attempt to display confected regret on the part of someone who has in reality never doubted their conclusions and is simply putting on a grief-opera having attracted the sympathies of his intended audience.
However, it’s ridiculously light on the detail nevertheless. How exactly is Brexit going to go wrong? This is entirely unspecified. Surely he must have some idea of what’s about to go wrong? Trade? Security cooperation? What?
How can the author reconcile his admitted reservations about membership, especially the issues around democracy, and the reality that EU membership involves the eventual severance of the link between the government and the governed. Yes, there’s the part where it’s argued that in this ever more globalised world, international governance is ever more arcane and specialised, but I have say two things to this: (1) in no way does this mean that accountability for the decisions reached should e diluted: we are all just as invested in good decision-making on the part of those in power irrespective of this point, and (2) what on earth makes the author imagine that the EU’s track record stands as some sort of example of how to deal with this problem? I think the author is merely advancing the technocrat’s favourite excuse for his own privileges here, I’m afraid.
The final paragraph I reject outright. Brexit was a project for the exercise of democracy, and democracy has never been simply a majoritarian system in which the winners take all and the losers exit power entirely. Democracy relies wholly on the convention that the losing side accepts the result and moves on. Moving on in this sense means that those in power who opposed the winning agenda must work with the new administration and not fight the implementation of the winning agenda. This has not happened: Brexit was sabotaged from the start by almost the entire political Establishment, and to whatever extent Brexit fails (if it does), the political Establishment will remain culpable. I am frankly amazed that after having watched the manner in which the Civil Service, Lords, Commons and the media systematically removed every genuine threat that Brussels might face in a proper negotiation, that Brexit supporters must somehow then take the blame for the consequences. The idea is preposterous.
Well said. I believe you are observing the workings of your own “deep state” when you talk about the Establishment. We, in the US and the UK, seem to have allowed the cancerous growth of bureaucracies that proceed almost unimpeded by any outside interference, regardless of their titular bosses. If their own income streams or power are threatened, the bureaucrats act unilaterally to defend themselves.
‘the Civil Service, Lords, Commons and the media systematically removed every genuine threat that Brussels might face in a proper negotiation…’
What sort of threat do you have in mind? Military action?
Please don’t be silly.
We had the ability to threaten the massive trade surplus that the EU values so much, we had the ability to remove defence and intelligence cooperation, we had the ability to reverse the citizens rights imbalance that is so hugely to the EU’s advantage and not the UK’s etc. We even rolled over on a cash demand for tens of billions of Euros for which no legal basis exists, ffs. There are loads more examples but the fact is that you know them yourself and are simply asking a silly question because you are only interested in having a silly discussion.
Well I seem to be getting it! Every one of those things would have been (will be) cutting off our noses to spite our faces!
I voted to leave and all this article has done is diminish my admiration of Ed West! Maybe I am to quick to label someone a thinker as I previously did with this author
Then you’re an idiot who seeks only to have their own worldview reinforced despite facts, evidence and context proving you to be incorrect
There’s only one idiot here, and I’m afraid your nonsensical arguments determine it as you.
This piece smacks of a more than pretty lame attempt at a buyer’s remorse…and I’m being polite.
Possibly fuelled by the realisation that getting to Tuscany next year might prove to be a wee bit more tiresome than he expected or that Sasha’s gap year in Paris has been well and truly buggered up?
With the greatest of respect, and I do not say this lightly, I’m appalled.
How someone apparently once so directly immersed in the understanding of the murky world of EU politics who apparently still believes that the nation state is best means of organising society, apparently also acknowledges that the single currency is a disaster waiting to happen, apparently sees the problems that free movement has caused in the UK and yet who shows a fundamental misunderstanding and ignorance of the single market and its downsides, who now essentially believes that modern international institutions can only function properly if they’re democratically unaccountable, now thinks those that he acknowledges clearly know more than him are automatically biased and must be wrong and who now resorts to the lazy reductive clichés and stereotypes of leaving the EU only being an extreme right wing, little Englander preserve whilst admitting to have voted for UKIP himself in the past, to then sink to writing such disingenuous mea culpa claptrap as this is beyond me, quite frankly.
Sasha will be fine. Like Ed she has an entitlement to an Irish passport (or maybe even is already the holder of one).
There are questions begged all over the place in the article but I keep returning to the fact that in 1975 the group in Society that voted most overwhelmingly for staying in the then EEC were *The Young*…like the poor, always with us.
And in 2016 the group that voted most heavily for Leave were *The Old*…like the young always with us, but across Europe increasingly more rapidly than the young.
We’re used to this idea that the ‘radical’ types, for change, progressive ideals and all that are the ‘young’ while it’s not so for the conservative, reactionary ‘old’.
The interesting thing, at least to my mind, is that in the case of pro-EEC and anti-EU this young and old cohort are the very same people..the 20 to 30s in 1975 are now 65 to 75.
The idea that these people were young, enthusiastic, energetic advocates for the EEC but, well, y’know..people get old and crusty and they just sort of went against it for that reason…I cannot see it.
Instead I think, for these people, and others a little younger or a little older, the change from an European Economic Community of separate states getting together for Trade, via the European Community, to it’s emergence as the European Union, endlessly talking economics but meaning politics, sounding as if it’s about trade but really it’s about a union super state, was apprehended as a lived experience.
Fears placated at each step from the ERM, through the single currency to the Lisbon treaty emerged a few years later as *next steps*, just as the (entirely predictable and predicted) current problems of the Euro are not a reason to revisit the idea, but instead as an argument to argue for and create a supra-national EU chancellory to oversee the necessary fiscal remedies needed to preserve the currency.
I don’t think this process will ever end until there is a de factor super state, and I didn’t expect to ever get a chance to avoid being passively involved. When one came along I voted leave and I don’t regret it at all.
If losing the 2nd biggest economy and by miles their largest element of soft power influence doesn’t make the EU think again, and right now it doesn’t seem to be, then nothing will and the sooner they start openly articulating what the Federal EU state will look like the better really.
Well said.
“There are questions begged all over the place in the article but I keep returning to the fact that in 1975 the group in Society that voted most overwhelmingly for staying in the then EEC were *The Young*…like the poor, always with us.”
Are you sure about that? The pro-vote was 2 to 3 in favour, I don’t remember any stark young/old dichotomy at the time. Two of voices which argued most strongly against at the time were Enoch Powell and Tony Benn – these were easily painted as dangerous extremists and that the path of moderation lay in a pro-Common Market vote. Actually now I’m much older I’m inclined to be suspicious of moderate men, Appeasement in the mid-thirties was a moderate policy and look where that got us.
But 1975 and 2016 – we were not voting for the same beast, at least we didn’t think so
75 – Common Market
16 – advanced political project
If we’d had any idea of that then I’m sue that it would have been roundly booted into touch
He’s gone and got himself a Remainer mistress.
Unadulterated Bollox. Brexit was never about the pro’s and Coin’s of leaving the EU, it was about Democracy.
Brexit is a once in a generation vote, unlike the Scottish referendum the SNP have turned into a once a month referendum, until the vote turns there way.
I truly believe the Brexiters would have accepted what they considered inevitable, that they would lose.
Remainers couldn’t accept the humiliation they imposed on themselves, with four years of conniving, whinging and moaning.
Even now they are screaming it’ll be a disaster; based on what evidence? None whatsoever as no one has ever done Brexit on this scale before.
I’m heartily sick of the whole thing, sick of the remoaners, sick of the excuses, sick of the threats, sick of the politics, sick of the celebrities who threatened to leave but don’t. December 31st/January 1st can’t come soon enough so I can scream back at them “get to work and be of some use to the country”.
For pity’s sake, why am I supposed to plough through all this irrelevant drivel?
It’s a simple question – do you want Britain to be governed by the British government or by the European Commission?
The leading question is entirely fatuous. WAS it worth it ? Not the point, we haven t experienced it yet. My assumptions is that it WILL BE worth it.
“It’s the fault of Brexiteers alone.” Interesting concept: perhaps more of the Remainers should have left the pub to vote. Is there not responsibility for their inaction? I’ve no stake in this as I’m a foreigner, but I do have faith that your great nation will, in time, do very well.
Bit late in the day but I wanted to check if anyone shared my feelings on Brexit.
I am another who empathises with some of the sentiments expressed in the article. I went to bed on the night of the referendum having voted to leave and felt I’d done the right thing.
I woke the next morning asking myself if I’d done the sensible thing.
I still feel those conflicting pulls but the reasoning behind why I voted the way I did means that I would repeat my choice now if occasion presented.
My belief was that if we remained in the EU, within three to five years we would have been obliged to join the Euro and probably over a similar time frame, there would have been an ineluctable momentum towards standardisation of tax rates, certainly with regard to corporate and probably to include other financial measures.
The former outcome was cause for concern given what had happened to Greece and to a lesser extent Italy- as well as being a foretaste of a rather more hectoring style of leadership from the over mighty Commission bureaucracy.
The latter was triggered by seeing how the EU sought to undermine Ireland’s sugar coated deal with Google and has been reinforced during the negotiations with the UK by the insistence on a level playing field.
Why both futurescapes alarmed me is that they would combine to create a situation in which the UK would have no or precious little control over its own monetary and fiscal policy.
At that point, we would cease to to be an independent state. To which I would add, the citizenship of an amorphous, monolithic bloc presented me with no counterbalancing advantage ( especially in democratic terms).
I’m sure many will disagree with my prognosis and I’m not arrogant enough to believe I’m infallible but based on it, I preferred to feel I had done the right thing rather than the sensible.
Even later in the day,let me try and answer some of your arguments. Also wrote a similar piece further down in answer to Hilary Arundale:
You wrote “My belief was that if we remained in the EU, within three to five years
we would have been obliged to join the Euro and probably over a similar
time frame, there would have been an ineluctable momentum towards
standardisation of tax rates, certainly with regard to corporate and
probably to include other financial measures.”
My answer: No, not in the least. National governments remain in control and are not “forced” to approve what the Commission proposes. The UK negotiated an opt out from the Euro and would not have been obliged to surrender it. In addition, every financial proposal, especially on budgets and taxation, is subject to unanimous agreement and therefore national vetos.
You wrote: “The former outcome was cause for concern given what had happened to Greece and to a lesser extent Italy- as well as being a foretaste of a rather more hectoring style of leadership from the over mighty Commission bureaucracy.”
My answer: What happened to Greece and Italy was surely due more to years of their people being failed by weak, often inept and sometimes corrupt national governments. Of course the Euro was a big shock to their economic systems, but their governments wanted it ….and then did almost nothing to mitigate the shock. Even at the height of the crisis however, a majority of Greeks and Italians wanted to keep their new currency. Their recovery will be slow but it’s wrong to blame only the Euro for their travails.
“The over mighty Commission bureaucracy” is surely no more than a convenient myth pedaled by the UK tabloid press and the the “Leave” campaign. Of course the Commission is a bureaucracy, but it does not “lead” the EU, is ultimately under the control of national governments and, since the Treaty of Lisbon, the European Parliament too
You wrote “To which I would add, the citizenship of an amorphous, monolithic bloc
presented me with no counterbalancing advantage ( especially in
democratic terms).”
My answer: i find this argument totally misplaced. No advantages to UK citizens from being able to move freely, live, work and trade, tariff and quota free, in a vast area of 500 million people just through the Chanel Tunnel ? Are a majority of the people in the 26 other countries so worried about the so-called lack of democracy in the EU that they would willingly give up these huge advantages in order to “take back control ” ? Of what ? No, only the UK has gone so far, and even then, only by a slim majority.
None of the reasons given are even close to convincing. I tried to piece together where he is coming from but it’s all just frivolous nonsense. Perhaps there just isnt any good justification for EUphilia
A big problem lies in the character of the British governing class. Brexiteers believed that in breaking free of EU constraints we would be taking our place in the wider world as an independent, dynamic economic force ““ a force to be reckoned with.
Instead our governing class emerge, blinking and uncertain, with all the dynamism of an institutionalised prisoner unexpectedly ejected from a life of predictable security. No wonder Ed West is worried.
Thoughtful reflections. I’ve experienced something of the opposite reaction. From a fervent anti-Brexit opinion to more of a balanced view that affords more credibility to critiques of the EU and Westminster. Indeed, I just want it done now and for us to move on. It’s also good to recognise myself described in the article, or at least the caricature! I suspect we would have needed to have a decisive debate on future as part of European some point, my regret is that the case to Remain was put so negatively and we collectively failed to see a positive future for a UK within the EU.
As I think someone has already said, we have not ceased to be Europeans; we have ceased to be in thrall to the EU, which never did have anything to do with the welfare of the European people as a whole, just the naked ambitions of a small, unelected and unaccountable collection of self important people, many of whom, I believe, had lost the right to wield legitimate power in their own countries and viewed the EU as a way to maintain their wealth and influence.
The founders of the EEC, who always envisioned an eventual Europe -wide ‘State’, were ALL fervent Roman Catholics (even Adenauer, the German Leader). They wanted a pan-European Roman Catholic Empire ‘in the spirit of Charlemagne’ (QUOTE: Valery Giscard-D’Éstaing). That’s why De Gaulle opposed British entry. It’s not a Catholic, Nationalist State. We would never ‘fit in’. That was also the root of Churchill’s view of the new ‘United States of Europe’. All right for them, but never for us.
Now I see you true point
You are trying to defend English Protestantism against Continental Catholicism.
Thank you. Very interesting.
What a load of tosh! We should have left on 24.6.16 under wto and regained our fishing waters. We have been led by traitors – in particular TM and Boris isn’t a lot better.
Fishing. You’re talking about crippling a whole economy for a handful of jobs. The deal negotiations now are playing Russian roulette over a bucket of sprats.
This reads as quite a muddled, inchoate article. I’ve no problem with the author changing his mind (talk of “turncoats” isn’t very productive) but I don’t have a clear sense of the specific reasons/factors that led to the change of mind.
The issue of complexity is raised and there’s discussion in the comments about the role played by emotion, but there are some quite clear structural economic issues about the EU that exist irrespective of what one’s emotional predisposition might be towards notions of European identity vs National sovereignty etc.
Joseph Stieglitz is a left of centre Nobel Prize winning USA economist with no particular Nationalistic axe to grind on the Brexit issue and I recommend his clear, albeit lengthy, tome “The Euro: And its Threat to the Future of Europe”. To say that economics is an imperfect science is a bit of an understatement but, so fundamental are the Euro’s structural faults he outlines in great detail, that it is difficult to take seriously the notion that choosing an uncertain economic future for Britain is the sole preserve of the Leave side of the argument. I love European culture but the EU is on the cusp of an economic quagmire that will make Brexit look like a small historical footnote.
I’m with you on this. The simplest answer is that the author is lying-he never actually supported Brexit. His flip to wanting democracy and the nation state kept away from distant technocrats to happily admitting the EU is becoming a superstate and that things are too tough for normal people to control and should be left to….distant technocrats…is hilariously transparent.
But we are not in the Euro, so this is all irrelevant.
Brexit voters don’t do truth
Dear Qahir,
Your comment doesn’t help construct polite discourse. Please identify anything specific in my original comment that is “untrue” as opposed to making a discourteous reflex response to a view you don’t like.
Best wishes.
Dear Diarmid,
Thank you for your response.
It is not irrelevant to point out that a defining structural feature of the EU – the EURO has profound problems. This is because any country within the EU, whether they have the Euro, or not, will be liable to suffer the economic fall-out from the currency’s inevitable/highly likely eventual failure. To argue that, somehow, countries within the EU can isolate themselves from the effects of the Euro I would suggest is wishful thinking. It also contradicts the clearly federalist statements of key EU politicians. Dismissing something as “irrelevant” because it fails to fit your own pre-conceived narrative doesn’t help build a constructive dialogue between opposing views.
The EU is often sold as a guarantor of peace and civility – I wish those discussing its merits and faults could at least discuss things in good faith and with a genuinely open mind. This is why I leavened my personal opinions with the argument of a Nobel Prize winning economist. It is Stieglitz, not me, who claims that the health of the EU as a whole is threatened by the dysfunctionality of the EURO (whether your particular country uses the currency or not).
Best wishes.
That all may be the case. But given the EU countries will remain our neighbours and are likely collectively to remain our largest trading partner, leaving the EU does not prevent any such indirect fallout. It just means we are in no position to do anything about it.
Hi Diarmid,
If the Euro fails (as Stieglitz thinks it inevitably will) it will be bad for the world economy never mind Europe’s. Those still within the EU, however, will be directly liable for solving the problem of collective debts and liquidity problems I.e. bad as it may be, it is still better for the UK to be outside the EU.
What genuinely fascinates me is how the EU has become some sort of secular religion. It should be possible to wish it well but not wish to be a part of it, or wish to be a part of it but not feel obliged to believe against all rational evidence that the Euro can work.
Best wishes,
Paul.
I find the article to be less than convincing and think the author is trying to pull a fast one of the ‘I believe in this but now due to newfound logic and knowledge I realise I was wrong’ where actually they never held the original position from the start. If his main issue with the EU was:
“I’m naturally suspicious of bodies beyond the control of voters, not because I believe in the wisdom of “the people”, but because of the human tendency to self-interest. Technocratic elites are also prone to groupthink; they form their own orthodoxies because they tend to be sociable and so beliefs become markers of belonging and status.
I also thought that democracy was impossible in a body as large as the EU because of the lack of a demos. The euro has been disastrous for countries such as Italy and Greece, but the people in charge ” Charlemagne’s descendants ” didn’t regard the Greeks as their countrymen.”
Then in a quick hop, skip and a jump he’s saying about his newfound views:
“As for democracy, the dull truth is that international institutions have to be remote and undemocratic. As global trade has become more complicated, so the rules and bodies behind them have had to become more arcane; governing and rule-making in the 21st century has to be beyond the understanding of most people (journalists included).”
Ah ok, great stuff, so he’s no longer worried about the lack of democracy and is happy that trade is out of the reach of the control of normal people. Cool. Good to know.
Oh wait, there’s more. This person who was worried about democracy at the start believed that:
“on a fundamental level about the nation-state, which I considered (and still do) the best means of organising society. I’m naturally suspicious of bodies beyond the control of voters, not because I believe in the wisdom of “the people”, but because of the human tendency to self-interest. Technocratic elites are also prone to groupthink; they form their own orthodoxies because they tend to be sociable and so beliefs become markers of belonging and status.”
But now he’s totally relaxed about:
“The inevitable superstate the continentals were heading towards probably suited people in Lombardy, Alsace or the various other provinces of core Europe in which gradations of language and culture existed in one continuum. It just didn’t suit us, for reasons of geography and history.”
And on top of all that, he brings out the tropes about posh Tories at golf clubs, D-Day, says Brexit supporters are living in cloud cuckooland and now feels a deep connection with fellow Europeans?
Pull the other one mate.
Unherd-I’m very disappointed at the quality of this article, it’s far below your usual standards.
Having such a transparent attempt at claiming to have changed his mind on key points when it’s clear they were never at all is the sort of chicanery i would expect elsewhere.
And if by chance he really has changed his mind (I obviously doubt it) then all I can say is that he is in no way as clever as he thinks he is. He’s managed to contradict all his deeply held beliefs in one article. Not exactly someone I’d be choosing to write for a high quality website like Unherd.
Must.
Do.
Better.
I supported Brexit – and still do – because I want it to fail and collapse, and hopefully to be replaced by a “common market”. This trading bloc would entail foundational documents that would bar it ever from being empowered to make law. Any and all proposals for laws, rules and regulations would be available – as if from “think tanks” – for nation states to consider and do with as they see fit.
It was always wrong for parliament to make us subject to laws made outside our parliament.
On this you are wrong Mr West. The divisions in the UK may have been brought forth by BREXIT but those divisions were already there and were the well spring of vote leave. Taking back control also means we can start to fight back harder against the uncivil serpents and the metro-sexual illiberal Islington set and their poisonous allies. Now they don’t have the EU to back their agenda.
Yes, it is more complicated now. Because in 1975 the people voted to join a Common Market. The ensuing under hand creep into an ever politicised union was not done in our name. De Gaulle understood the British people when he denied us access.
I’m surprised you don’t put any value on sovereignty, on making the politicians accountable to the people again.
Despite the understandable obsession with the immediate economics of Brexit it is, way above all, a profoundly political act.
The EU the UK voted to leave in 2016 is not the same as the EU even four years later today and will not be the same EU that exists in five or ten years time.
The EU, created in 1990, is a political project informed by its economics, unlike its predecessor that was vice versa and has, ever since, acted like a ratchet.
Leaving it will undoubtedly come with an economic cost to both the UK and the EU, but the scale and impact of that cost, certainly in the short term and on the current evidence will largely be determined by the EU’s zealous ‘political’ heart rather than its far more sensible ‘economic’ head sadly.
Yep, of course you were a euro skeptic, course you were!
And of course, seeing the behaviour of the EU since the vote with their childish insults, demands to control us, fish our waters for free etc., you have since realised that they are on the right side and your everyday purple faced Brexiteer banging on about the empire and the war was hopelessly and hideously wrong.
Like everyone, I have heard plenty of people ‘banging on’ about this subject over recent years. Yet I do not recall hearing even one Brexiteer bringing either the Empire or the War into the argument.
I read Varoufakis in an attempt to learn more about the structure of monetary policy within the €urozone, and what actually happened during the sovereign debt crisis. It made me more curious about whether it was a good system which could function well. After that, Stiglitz, Blyth, Connelly, Goodhart etc…
I don’t think I was selecting to learn what I wanted to learn, but in terms of balance, what can I read that would help to counter the many opinions which view the European single currency in such a negative light?
Willem Buiter is worth a read if you want a pro-Euro stance. The years have not been kind to his advocacy since 2000 for the UK to join the Eurozone.
https://www.researchgate.ne…
https://www.economist.com/f…
Willem Buiter is worth a read if you want a pro-Euro stance. The years have not been kind to his advocacy since 2000 for the UK to join the Eurozone.
(I posted this with some links originally but disqus not too keen on links it seems)
An interesting piece.
Orwell once said that England is a perpetually unhappy family because the wrong members are always in charge. Brexit in my view has very little to do with the EU at all, but occurred because a substantial part of the UKs people have been ‘left behind’. They have been left behind because their governing class prize mammon above every other concern. It also occurred because of a failure to come to terms with the country’s imperial history, its darkness as well as light. And boy, is there some darkness! The English are very much a small ‘c’, conservative people, they don’t like change. This can at times be a powerful unifier, but at this ‘late’ hour in the West Civ. has become a wilful blindness to reality. Perhaps it will prove a providential moment? I am currently reading William Cobbett’s ‘History of the Reformation’. A brave book for the time it was written in. On almost every page he mentions something that reminds me instantly of current UK government ‘strategy’. There was only every really one strategy, divide and conquer, Scots against English, rich against poor. Always, the ‘top’ are untouchable, always the trouble is stirred by the top amongst the ‘middle’, who are desperately seeking the approval of their ‘betters’, always its the poor who suffer. From the mouth of babes. That the scales are falling from Ed West’s eyes is welcome, even now. That a Catholic, the son of a witty and saavy Irish Catholic no less, could be taken in by this in the first place is sort of depressing. Hopefully the next generation of Wests will finally free themselves from cosy narratives and bravely restore England’s *true* glory.
“And boy, is there some darkness!”
Grossly exaggerated. How about Leopold, the King of the Belgians?.I think we need to remind the Brussels burueaucrats about his murderous rule as often as is practicable.
The central issue is two opposed concepts of human society. One is as a collective requiring to be managed by a powerful central Government (location irrelevant – even World Government is preferable). Government is meant to ensure ‘salus’: health & safety.
The other is of a free association of human beings, each with their own choice and purpose, and with Government understood as a mediator, a preventer of bad things, but with no responsibility to promote allegedy good things (more people usually agree about the bad than the good).
The EU represent Option 1. Thee UK used to represent Option 2, and is hopefully now returning to that fresh air of freedom (yes, even the freedom to starve or die if necessary in its defence).
Mr West appears to have crossed the barricades to the first Option, having claimed, rather unconvincingly, to have been against it all along previously.
Does anybody think, any longer, that obstructing communications with your nearest and closest market is a good idea? Maybe a few, but many more who, unlike the excellent Ed West, simply don’t want to admit that they made a horrible mistake.
Is that a potshot at the EU?
from an outsider’s point of view, it’s one thing to create a common economic market but quite another when that market attempts to become political. We have a trade agreement across North America but none of the participants are suggesting a common govt, and with good reason. My parents went on at length about how the move negatively impacted Greece, though perhaps it forced a dose of reality on the country, that there is really is no free lunch. Still, the political aspect has to be tough.
Brexit: was it worth it?
You ain’t had it yet. Nor will you see the economic fruits for a couple of years.
IF we get it, it will be like a breath of fresh air. And yes, I do understand what the EU is all about – almost certainly a helluva lot more than you.
I voted to remain and will do so again.
Like most people who voted remain, as polling showed, I thought the EU was problematic. There are fewer fervent EU believers than there are fervent Brexit ones. I can certainly say quite a few things about the EU’s shortcomings.
Like most people I know who voted to remain (though I’m not sure how numerous we are), I also saw that Brexit can bring some benefit.
In fact, I think both predictions of Brexit leading to immense prosperity or a great crash are both overwrought. Britain will probably muddle along, as it used to, economically.
The reason I voted remain is not because I love the EU, or that I think Brexit will be a catastrophe. The reason I did so was because I thought the benefit of remaining in the EU far outweighs the cost of it. Or conversely, that the cost of Brexit far outweighs the benefits of it.
The common refrain that the EU is undemocratic has some merits, although the bigger issue is that the voters are not more involved in EU elections, or EU-wide issues. Participation is required to make things work.
However, even greater than my concern about that is that the UK’s Westminster electoral system is itself frightfully unrepresentative. The reason the author thought that Ukip gave voice to so many voiceless is precisely that the electoral system silences plenty.
Nigel Farage giggled with glee when their comrades in Germany, the AfD, won seats throughout the country. Yet, this is one great reason why helplessness reigns amongst a large quarter of the electorate in this country – unlike Germany, they are far too often shut out of the democratic process.
Brexit will not change this. Brexit won’t suddenly enfranchise more people and release the frustrations of being unheard. And for this reason, I thought Brexit was certainly not the solution being sought for by what many voters considered the biggest systematic problem in existence today. And for this reason, I was not sold on the Brexit promise.
Finally, of course, to explain the EU’s benefit: being part of a larger body where Britain had a big voice in a world dominated by China and the US was great. Being able to take tough and legally binding actions on consumer rights, climate change and the race to the bottom that encourages tax avoidance, are all worth the cost of admission into the EU. And that cost itself is movable – the EU, while large and sometimes slow-moving, is open to reform.
I can’t help thinking Ed West and some commentators here are forgetting the basics: the majority of the UK was happy with the then-EEC trading block and have since become unhappy as a consequence of the now-EU’s changed objectives; of federalisation, central control and the formation of common armed force.
I suspect other countries will, in time, become similarly disgruntled and seek to follow us out, all because of the EU’s creeping ambitions.
That said, I do hope the EU, as a contiguous land mass with 20,000km or so of shared land border, holds itself together and that the UK with hardly any shared land border continues to be a close but independent friend to and ally of the EU.
Who knows; if the EU winds it’s neck in and becomes the EEC again, we might want to join them!
Most people who have changed their minds seem to have done so in the opposite direction to Ed. They have seen the attempts by the British political class to keep us in while the aggression and obstinacy of the EU Institutions has shocked them. After all, we had all been told they were partners.
As the usual suspects have exaggerated the difficulties of leaving the public has come to appreciate the depth and breadth of the transfers of power to the EU which our Parliaments have permitted successive governments to do without permission or knowledge of the public.
Much of the article is gratuitous swipes at others who believe the way Ed used to. Goodness, he thinks, if people like that wanted to leave I had better say I wanted to stay. If he had written that he now sees the nation state as defunct and unallcountable supra national rule as the way ahead, at least we would he recognised the thought. It would have been fascinating to read the justification for such a reversal.
Altogether not a persuasive article.
‘Most people who have changed their minds seem to have done so in the opposite direction to Ed. ‘
Errm…No! https://whatukthinks.org/eu…
If you say that you believe that the best way to organize society is with the Nation State then Brexit is the only and the right thing to do and saves such a social contract’s integrity.
We look at things now, this is not as they will be next year in Europe. More sovereignty was supposed to be heading to Brussels in more ways than one and all was to get much worse. This was no longer a Common Market but a Federation where nations will become provinces with the sovereignty which corresponds to a province and nothing else, even the currency would need to be unified.
We would be giving away our sovereignty which is what our ancestors were prepared to die for in order to give to their descendants, to us they gave the right to steer our own course.
Unless the EU is modified and changes what has already been decided, this was the last stop for the UK to be the UK, and the remainers infiltrating the leave camp like Theresa May did so treacherously and put us on course to where we are now, having agreed to pay a shed load of money to the EU for absolutely nothing but a very bad divorce in return. The EU after “helping itself” has let us down and wants to govern us! Is that what you now want to belong to?
If we really want to leave the EU we need to denounce the Withdrawal Agreement and state that we are no longer a party to that treaty. NOTHING IS AGREED UNTIL EVERYTHING IS AGREED.
Giving the “timetable” to Brussels was an act of treason by a treacherous remainer, that is why we are still here, we should have left in 2016 but then again we had another remainer PM.
The problem of Westminster was that it was a Parliament which had no intention of representing its people until the 2019 election for he House of Commons. That Parliament after a remainer PM messed up the Royal Prerogative turned in to what was aptly described by themselves as “a disgrace”.
Of course the sewer of the House of Commons ends in the House of Lords where we still have a problem and that too should change and represent for example corporate tax payers or some other form of power but not a decomposing past House of Commons.
If you love England and the United Kingdom, then the only possible future is BREXIT.
The only thing more tedious than the four plus years of reading about Brexit negotiations is this article.
The obeisance to bureaucrats by the author is remarkably defeatist. “As for democracy, the dull truth is that international institutions have to be remote and undemocratic,” he says. Well, amazingly enough, there actually is another choice. Run your own affairs. Good grief.
“But the more I read about it, the more it seemed like there was no form
of exiting the EU that wouldn’t bring enormous drawbacks, larger than
the limited benefits”.
Please elaborate – what exactly are the enormous drawbacks of exiting the EU?
I noticed this week’s media narrative is to focus on the purely transactional issue of the trade deal – financial benefits of Remain versus Leave. As if that was the main focus of the referendum.
Totally accept that we won’t have as good a deal by cutting the ties. But enough people still feel – like it or not – that the strings attached in terms of EU oversight and connectivity are not worth the benefit.
Now those “strings” may be incorrect perceptions. The media could do us a great service by a) accepting it exists in people’s minds and then b) exploring it in an open-minded and objective way.
It just seems beyond our current media to do that without frothing about Farage, Banks and Tories generally. Even Ed succumbed three-quarters of the way through this article. How about addressing the issue to the other 17m?
It simply plays into alt-media claims that mainstream media is nowadays more about omitting that which they DON’T want to talk about, with the conclusion being that silence is an admission of the weakness of their arguments.
UK press should be better than this!
What a peculiar article. The author seems confused. Leaving the EU can be whatever we want it to be, so perhaps it’s better to be optimistic. Mr. West’s institutionalised self-doubt is redolent of those sorry old lags who smash shop windows in December, and stand by meekly to be arrested, so they can be back inside for Christmas.
It can be whatever you want it to be, because you hold all the cards. Do me a favour.
What don’t you like about free will? Would you rather live tamed in a zoo, or following your nature in the wild? Do yourself a favour, matey.
Confusing article full of stereotypes- sounds as if you were a half arsed Leaver from the start
If one at all. Take the quote below. Could anyone except a Europhile have written it?
“My sense of being a European has also grown as the potential menace of the Chinese, Russian and Turkish regimes has become clearer. Most of all, though, has been the realisation this year that American political culture is an irredeemably corrosive and dangerous force.”
The key words there are ‘grown’ , ‘clearer’ and ‘realisation’. Some people change their minds when the facts change. Many obviously don’t.
Er… we have NOT left the EU yet. What we have seen in the MSM is only a small part of the “deals” that have been going on behind the scenes. Have we left the EU if we still have a military alliance?
What is it to “feel European”, thinking in 6 languages?! The continent of Europe is not going any where, you can still visit whenever you want (barring Covid insanity). The decisions made in Brussels are so far from the reality/needs of the people in Europe’s far flung corners; they are hopelessly out of touch, but more importantly have no desire to be in touch. It is a bureaucratic dictatorship.
Yes, legally, we have left the EU pursuant to the A50 notice and WA. The UK is not a MS of the EU.
I too had my doubts. I sat in my car outside the polling station for 30 minutes wondering what was the best thing for the UK. I realised we would have to take an economic hit for a while. In the end I thought about my kids and the longer term and decided to vote leave. My reasoning was that being run by a faceless bureaucratic council in Brussels was not likely to bring happiness and opportunity. The growth and dynamism was in the east and I hoped Britain’s businesses would adapt to new exciting markets once the easy option had gone.
I never had an objection to an economic union with Europe but my parents did not sign up for a steadily creeping federalism and neither had I been given an opportunity to choose until Brexit.
But it all seems irrelevant. Now we have a creeping global authoritarianism while most of the country panics about a disease that would barely be noticed 10 years ago. It’s made me very sad about Britain. What happened to the stiff upper lip and pragmatic toughness we once had. The broadcast media are simply another political party leading us by the nose rather than challenging the government and most of the country hasn’t worked it out yet. Shocking and bad things to come I sense. Sometime in the next 12-24 months when the reality of spending a Trillion pounds, on what is barely more lethal than 2017’s flu, the population will be stunned by the fall in living standards and size of the unemployed. What will result? Protests, riots? The police with no doubt more new laws on the back of … COVID21? … will come down on them like the Stasi and it will be all too late.
The WEF gang who think they’re going to rule the world may be surprised. My guess is it’ll all end with internecine fighting and China will end up in charge. When you put a system into chaos it’s very hard to predict where it will settle. If the BBC still exist they will probably blame Brexit!
As the annual Franco-German summits eloquently demonstrate, the EU is run by and for those two nations. What was the justification for the UK subordinating itself to France and Germany ? A majority of Britons found none. The rest is history.
“governing and rule-making in the 21st century has to be beyond the understanding of most people (journalists included).” Says who, exactly, aside from the few people who are making the rules?
Isn’t it strange, to put it mildly, how your own views can change dramatically.
For 40 years, I’ve been a fervent Scottish Independence Supporter due to the influence of George Reid the best MP my country has ever had.
Even now at the age of 82 he still talks more sense than most other MPs put together.
Check out his Wikipedia page or listen to him and his views on what he calls ‘confederalism’ via the Alex Salmond show on Russia Today.
OT briefly.. Please shut your ears to the cheesy opening.
But then on the same show a few months back I listened to Alex interview a former UUP guy who quoted this
“I’m Irish, also British, also European and a citizen of the World. Taking away one part of this, to my mind diminishes the whole of me’.
And I thought that’s me I want what’s best for me and my family but also I want what’s best for my friends south of the border.
Can I square the circle? I hope so.
But then if someone told me a few months ago that I would be applauding Millwall supporters I would have nearly killed myself laughing
My brain hurts.
It is impossible to say whether Brexit was “worth it” or not, because the process itself was not a solution to a specific problem despite being presented as such by both Leavers and Remainers (an unsuccessful one in the view of the latter).
There is much to fault the EU with, but as is becoming obvious, disentangling from the union will cause its own absurdities with the famed authentic sovereignty still nowhere to be seen even as the UK goes it alone. It would then appear that Brexit was sold on a lie, because various visions of what different factions of Leave voters wanted to achieve cannot all be realised, and even the one that do eventually gets what they had hoped for will find soon enough that the reality does not match their dreams. It would thus appear that a status quo might be preferable to chasing a chimera?
But then we need to remember that the UK membership in the union turned out not to be at all what people believed they were signing up to. If the Brits could have imagined the current state of the EUnion in the first referendum decades ago, they would have emphatically said no, there is no doubt about that. The membership in the EC had itself been presented as a solution to a specific problem. It is uncertain whether it really contributed to helping the UK get out of a slump, or if this would have happened regardless of the EC membership. In any case, the community mutated into a totally different beast over time, as was bound to happen.
Taking into account that we cannot say in advance what an outcome of a political decision in an unspecified future will turn out to be, I think it is wrong to see Brexit as a goal-driven process. The consequences of Brexit in 5 years’ time will be different from the consequences in 50 years’ time, and we cannot predict either. So the better way to view it is as a value-driven process: the Brits are leaving the EU because they fundamentally disagree with basic concepts underpinning its existence. What they make out of their future out of the EU is not fixed, and they are not bound to follow a single path.
From this perspective, I think that the Brits made a right choice, because they are a distinctively Eurosceptic nation, a large chunk of Remainers included. What complicates the picture somewhat is that they are indeed becoming more Europhile with time: younger generations would certainly fit more comfortably in the EU community. If this is a real trend, a different UK (or separate nations) might rejoin an EU that will itself look very different. It is also possible that once fully out of the EU, the Brits will once again start diverging from the continent and might want to keep their independence forever. Whatever happens, I wish them well and will see them as fellow Europeans, regardless of their status in a supranational organisation.
Yes
Discussion over
Too late.
That was a very enjoyable read, thanks Ed!
I do agree, D. Lammy should take a step back and a deep breath 🙂
And the tribal polarisation is such an awful prospect; we seem to be falling headlong into the British past, or worse, the American present.
Anyone who has the courage to publicly admit to being wrong has my greatest respect. If only those who voted for the Iraq War would do the same. When both parties agree about something that is often when they are most wrong – Iraq and Brexit.
The author was never a fan of Brexit. Read the article again. I’m concerned about democracy and keeping control away from distant technocrats!
Now I understand that things need to be run by technocrats, and I also acknowledge that the EU is heading towards being a superstate!
He never changed his mind, the sly dog.
I don’t know why we can’t be friends with the Dutch without having a joint bank account. Nobody wants to fall out with them but if that is the price for us to govern our country to the benefit of the people who live then so be it.
I appreciate Ed’s honesty, but a couple of points struck me.
The EU has clearly set out in the negotiations to make the UK’s future as unthreatening to it as possible, making the sort of free trade relationship that most in the UK would like – and which would benefit EU citizens too – as hard to obtain as possible. I can see why they’ve acted like this, but it does not make me regret voting Leave. It’s essentially the tactic of the bully or the protection racket and I would not give in to their intimidation.
It’s also difficult to assess whether Brexit will be a success because we don’t know what the counter-factual will be. But it’s obvious we had little influence in recent times – the Germans and French basically rule the show – and that the prevailing direction of travel has been one most Britons, even many Remain voters, did not like. All the evidence suggests that the EU will continue in a ‘greater union’ direction, trying to make the euro work and extending it to more member states, and a Remain UK would still be on the margins, fighting losing battles, with the Foreign Office deluding itself that we were really influencing things after all.
‘There is more joy in heaven over one sinner that (reluctantly) repenteth than ninety and nine just men.’ Well done, Ed West. We were obviously better off, economically and politically, as one of a group of 28 nations who together have a sporting chance of standing up to America, China (and maybe India, in the future) than as one country. Of course the EU has faults, but how can one expect instant unanimity among nations that have been fighting each other, on and off, for a thousand years? Punishing the wretches who lied to us in their own interests will be a short-lived pleasure, though greatly to be cherished, but the damage will last for generations. We have still lost an Empire and still not found a role. Its going to be a hard road, folks.
Surrendering your sovereignty to a group of 28 cou tries you have nothing in common with and no common interests with is never a good idea. What difficulty no deal brings is preferable to staying in
‘Nothing in common with’? Mixing of peoples from immense antiquity to the present day. Christianity, Renaissance, Enlightenment. Endless cultural exchanges and influences. The Arts? In modern times, aspirations to democracy, not always met but always present. ‘No common interests’? Trade, tourism, defence, scientific advance and more. I don’t think William Cable’s argument can stand, especially if one takes Europe as a bench mark and compares it with other present-day civilisations. A crude test is to ask, ‘If I am not allowed to live in Europe or countries with European values, or in pre-Trump USA, where should I go?’ Not many possibilities unless one seeks a life that is nasty, brutish and short. The flood of people trying to get into Europe tells its own story.
Only a journalist could write: “more knowledge tends to correlate with more bias, because you learn what you want to learn”, meaning obviously that it does not apply to journalists, who by definition are always correct. But then it gets even worse with: “As for democracy, the dull truth is that international institutions have to be remote and undemocratic.” A journalist describes exactly what is wrong with international institutions but fails to see the problem.
I am somewhat puzzled as to how a definitive judgement can be made about something that has not yet happened. It is a little like writing in 1940 -was WW11 worth fighting ? Although we technically left the EU a while ago in reality we will not leave untill 31st DEC. 2020. The benefits of leaving the block will not be fully apparent for years.
West also seems totally unaware of the terrible damage the EU is doing to millions of lives in Europe, particularly in the southern countries. But I suspect West is of a certain class that gives little thought to the concerns and life prospects of ordinary people.
Clearly one of the major issues over the next 50 years will be growing economic migration and there is more chance of managing this effectively outside of the EU.
Good point well made Peter. I am looking to the Tories to finally resolve the immigration numbers. Once out of the EU for good there will be no room for blame on anything outside our own Country. Passing the buck stops at the doors of number 10.
The tories will likely sign a deal with India which will offer easier conditions for Indians to get UK visas and residency. The economy needs workers and the tory business owners need cheap labour, they’re not just going to close shop if they can’t get romanians anymore. There will be many more windrushes.
I voted leave, after much soul searching, But based on a realistic assessment of the EU’s direction of travel. It’s aims seemed more aligned to political and military integration with trade decreasing in importance to them. I totally disagree with it’s fast and loose expansion into the former Soviet bloc. I simply don’t trust it’s ability to apply sensible rules for membership and alignment since the Greece fiasco.
But, “ever closer union” seemed an inevitability whatever Cameron said. So for what little it’s worth, my view at the time was we had to get fully on board or forge a different path.
Nothing I have witnessed since has changed my mind. Then again, neither have I read a single article that explores my point of view and argues the clear benefits to the UK of remaining in a Union whose destiny is tied, not only to Germany’s economic performance but also it’s political interests as well. That is the only reason I can think for EU’s focus to the East in the face of growing discontent from the founder members in the West.
That in turn seems to be undermining NATO’s role which is the last thing we need at the moment. Okay, antagonism between Trump and Merkel hasn’t helped but let’s not pretend there weren’t issues before. I mention all this because I am old enough to have voted in favour of the Common Market in 1975, and still broadly support closer links between nations with whom we have cultural and trade interests in common. I see no benefit in undermining or complicating the role of NATO. Lots of Leavers feel this way.
Anyway, I welcomed Ed’s article as an opportunity to understand why I too might want to change my mind. But there is nothing to get your teeth into here. Just when he makes some reasonable points – e.g. I generally agree with the point made on regulatory standards – and you think you’re getting to a substantial argument, you instead getting gnashing of teeth about Farage, Aaron Banks and Tory Eurosceptic “gammons”.
Come on Ed, you’re better than this. We’ve been going around this loop for 4 and a half years now. Many of us older leave voters grew up in the 1970’s/80’s and as youth stood against demonisation of the “other”. It was wrong then, and it’s no less wrong now demonising people just for holding different opinions.
Final point – I can see the phrase “lots of Leavers have changed their mind” is doing the rounds of the usual suspects this week and so is being presented as fact by others. Let’s be grown-up here. We simply don’t know without running two campaigns based on a set of common rules. A Tory government with a clear majority was elected in 2015 (Referendum and exit Human Rights Act) and 2019 (“Get Brexit Done”). Even in 2017 Tories were the largest party, primarily because Labour were less than honest about supporting Brexit. The referendum result we know, of course. Do we reallly have to keep voting until Remain supporters win?
Or maybe we just need to make sure only the “right sort” of people get to vote. That would represent quite a political journey for the post-war Labour movement.
The author overlooks the insidious role of the Remain Establishment in its attempts to derail the UK’s exit. Granted Leave never had a coherent exit strategy or end goal, but the way the whole process has been mishandled, hijacked and then undermined by “friendly fire” has left most of us feeling utterly exasperated…
This article is full of waffle. Writing for the sake of writing.
We will only know if it was the right thing to do in 10 years time. I would suggest that in 1 year the majority will think it was a big mistake and there will be a clamour to rejoin – which won’t happen. However the EU is doomed as an institution and after the first year the cracks already evident within what remains of the “union” will be looking more like deep crevasses. Hopefully we will be starting to see the benefits of being on much better terms than we are now with the other 93% of the world’s population. Economically we will still be struggling out of the effects of COVID lockdowns, however relative to many countries still in the “union” I would hope that there is a discernible positive difference between us and them. Thereafter the differences will grow. There will still be some aspects where we feel disadvantaged but overall the number of people who still regret leaving will steadily reduce. In 10 years I think the EU as we currently know it will have disintegrated and maybe a new alliance focused on those who have common interests cooperating with those who don’t able to do their own thing in those areas. UK may well be a part of it, possibly even a founder member.
Am I at all surprised we have not been able to do a deal? Not at all, whilst I agree we had to try, it was always a pipe dream and we should not have wasted as much time as we have trying.
Why did we have to try when the dire denouement was perfectly obvious 4 years ago?
Whatever happens to the EU in the medium term it was the crassest folly to go right out on such a limb, and then saw right through the branch.
“the EU is doomed as an institution and after the first year the cracks already evident within what remains of the “union” will be looking more like deep crevasses.”
All institutions are doomed over the very long term. Even the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire ended and each of them had a good 1000+ years plus run. However, at this point in time the cracks in the United Kingdom look much bigger than those in the EU.
Adrian Smith, like many of his ilk here, needs mental health treatment. The sheer hubris of these middle aged white British people that believe that what they spout is gospel is a mental illness.
Time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Being proved wrong is not evidence of mental illness though. I am just saying it how I see it, you are entitled to your own view and to express that view without any reference to irrelevant factors like age, sex and colour or attracting baseless insults. Just state your counter opinion.
The 3rd Reich was supposed to have lasted 1000 years too by the way. I do agree that we have a lot of divisions in our own society, many have a root cause in people not engaging in polite rational debate for one reason or another.
They are already talking about two tier membership as the Eastern European countries become ever more problematic, let alone those they are contemplating letting in like Albania.
Thanks for a refreshingly honest article. To spare everyone another lengthy comment, my simple answer is no, it was definitely not worth it. You should have listened to your daughter on the day of the vote!
For several reasons, I find it difficult to believe the author voted Leave unless he made his mark in the wrong box.
He didn’t. As has been noted elsewhere, he wrote pro-EU articles within days of the referendum result.
“However the monster that grew from the EEC dominated many aspects of our democracy and neutered our sovereignty.”
This comment’s sentiments I’ve heard many times, expressed by Leavers. Would someone have a go at explaining what these aspects are, and how they have neutered our sovereignty?
Let me have a stab at it!
The “monster” and “neutering our sovereignty” are expressions that show just how much the Brexiteers have captured the dominant narrative.
Any country that joins an international organisation inevitably gives up a part of its sovereignty by choosing to pool it, on specific issues and for specific purposes, with that of other countries. It does so out of a conviction that the benefits of grouping together will make life better for all and therefore outweigh the costs of having to compromise with others i.e surrendering a little sovereignty, to get there. I have never heard anybody in the UK complain about the loss of sovereignty entailed by the country’s membership of NATO, the UN and its affiliated organizations like the WTO or the WHO, the IMF, the OECD or the IPCC, to name just a few.
All international organisations harbour bureacracies and the EU institutions are no exception. That being said, the much derided “monster” of the Commission is more efficient and of higher calibre than many. More importantly, national governments ultimately remain in control. Every EU regulation and directive that applied to the UK was approved by its successive governments through the Council of Ministers and the European Council. Those that the UK government of the day found unpalatable (the Euro and Schengen are the obvious examples) they were able to opt out of, as a number of other member states did too. Does anyone remember that arch federalist (make me laugh!) General de Gaulle and his “empty chair” policy in 1965? It culminated in the Luxembourg agreement which stated that no country could be outvoted if it considered its “vital interests” at stake. Even if the EU now lives under a different treaty, the national veto is still alive and well, as the long-drawn out budget compromise with Hungary and Poland shows.
The major achievement of the “Leave” campaign in 2016 (for which a no-deal is the ultimate and logical consequence as we shall no doubt see within a few days ) was to hoodwink a thin majority of the electorate into believing that the largely symbolic but controlled surrender of sovereignty was far more important than the enormous benefits to the UK’s future prosperity and the livelihoods and welfare of its citizens, of being able move freely, live, work and trade, tariff and quota free, within a vast area of 500 million people on its very doorstep. The UK (if indeed it remains united) will now have to live with the consequences of its vote for at least a generation, maybe many more.
Excellent answer. ‘Sovereignty’ was a jingoistic buzzword that was used to push emotional buttons.
The populace fed 5th largest economy lies and amped up on historical gloire and derring -do(Battle of Britain; D-Day 6th June et al) has been led by the nose(52% anyway) by a bunch of spivs chancers, con-men, crazed ideolgues straight to the edge of the precipice. Everything seems reflected through this WW2 prism – Captain Tom, Covid hero was also a hero of Kohima we are fairly constantly reminded.
The Battle of Britain was a high spot in a lengthy period of pretty unsuccessful defensive fighting – Britain was on the verge of financial ruin by Spring 1941, and would have to seek terms were it not for Lend-Lease
D-Day was really a manifesto of American power not British, so were the bomber fleets and naval Armadas
The really pertinent history for our current comic tragedy is as I said running out of money in 1941, the “financial Dunkirk” Keynes spoke of when it seemed the Americans were going to pull the financial plug in 1946 and of course Suez.
We have lived in a dream world, sustained by fantasy and illusion, nay outright delusion – there has been an egregious failure to invest long term in our industry and in our working people(thanks a bunch City spivs!)
But now there is no US Marshall Aid cavalry about to come charging over the hill – we are stuck with the feckless folly, the cowardice and irresponsiblity of our idiot political class and commentariat. The SJW’s of the left are just as bad as the spivs on the right in their own unprepossessing way.
I fully expect Boris to capitulate returning from Brussels in a week or so clutching a bit of paper “A Trade Deal in Our Time”, writing up a Suez on Steroids as a Considerable Triumph, drawing on his vast reserves of Chutzpah, which is all he has got going for him.
Whereas in fact we have will have sustained a complete and unmitigated defeat – and will be draining the bitter cup to the very dregs
Was it worth it? Far too soon to say. But I wonder – would Ed West join a group to advocate rejoining the EU?
Also, Scottish independence, Catalonia, Brittany, Bavaria, …a general balkanization as Has happened to the old Soviet Union. Empires are always an evil, culturally as well as socio-economically.
I agree changing ones mind is painful and emotional in a political context – bravo for having the guts to do it and write about it. I found the pro and anti arguments particularly interesting written from that evenhanded standpoint which is maybe why I like UnHerd.
I too voted Leave and feel anxiety, not I think because of any change of view but because of…
1. The sickening mess of negotiations, much of which I blame on the EU. No wonder the optimism and enthusiasm has faded!
2. 2020…if ever there was a year to make the recent past look rosy this is it! Most of us associate Europe with the wonderful, carefree travelling we are no longer allowed to do.
3. Divisions everywhere. We are in a fractious time and I have never had so many fundamental disagreements with friends, family over Covid, climate change, Trump, USA election fraud, global debt, the Great Reset etc, etc. It is exhausting and the instinct is sometimes to want to avoid conflict and say ” why can’t we just all be friends!”
Keep the faith and remember that The Great Reset is a new European driven project for further non democratic rule. Their corruption may not be as overt as now being uncovered in the USA but it is there.
And lastly they are broker than broke! Although we are not far off at least we only have our own debts to manage!
You should note there are no concrete points and no thematic. It’s all subjective.
Our author is in bad faith. The elite, especially English, have always insisted on having it both ways, right & rich.
I’m amused by the use of a North of England train passenger to illustrate the claim that nationality is a requisite of solidarity in the United Kingdom.
Brexit is and was always an English Nationalism project. England’s dominant role in the “Union” has caused us to overlook the fact that England has its own seething jealousies and resentments. For example, as the squalidness of life under Britain’s extreme form of capitalism worsens each year, many can’t understand how, if we rescued France and beat Germany, the bloody pair of them are doing so much better than us.
This sort of resentment provides ample raw material for Farage-like populist to exploit for their agendas, such as Brexit’s goals of tax evasion, currency speculation, and disaster capitalism.
And it’s the politics of grievance that makes it possible to believe that things are better if, in harming your enemy, you’ve harmed yourself slightly less. Hence the death wish that animates the current Brexit “no deal or die!” narrative.
– Edinburgh
Haha, just a bit of buyers remorse. He’ll get over it.
I find myself hating/despising exactly the same groups as the author does (on both sides) and for pretty much the same reasons. I’m sure many others do. Which makes me wonder how many of us there are? Even more – how many of those who are apparently members of these despised groups are secretly like us?
The people most fervently for Brexit seem only concerned with believing in some kind of dated image of Britain derived from too much Dad’s Army.
It hardly seems worth all the trouble it’s going to cause us. The old Britain is never coming back.
A.N. Wilson wrote an excellent article on nostalgia and Brexit. I’d recommend you search for it, if you haven’t read it.
One question the Brexiteers never answered: ‘How many job losses do you consider a worthwhile price to pay for the intangible benefits you see in leaving the EU?’
Still waiting. By the time the true consequences of Brexit become apparent even to the most convinced Brexiteer, it will be too late. We’re in the doodoo up to our neck, even if the current negotiations succeed (if that is the right word).
There are many people we can ‘blame’ for this situation, but Johnson has to be at the top of the list, with Gove a close second. Whereas Cummings was always clear in his ambitions and never promised much (at least explicitly in public), Johnson and Gove (and others of course) made a whole raft of reassuring commitments about things that – they said – would not change in the event of Brexit.
I always thought they were liars and charlatans. Now I know they are. The referendum result was based on false promises. It is legally valid, but morally utterly invalid. And in the medium term there will be political consequences. I don’t rate Boris Johnson’s political prospects very highly.
The problem with that line of reasoning is that it’s been trotted out non-stop for several years. We were apparently already in an economic shock just for holding a referendum, according to the Camerons and Osbornes of the world. There’s been a non-stop parade of people doomsaying about the consequences, which have either failed to emerge or been far milder than predicted.
Covid is likely to massively overshadow any other economic issue for some time.
Wow. I thought I lived in a bubble. Glad to hear you have come round but the idea that Remainers are inevitably ‘insufferable London sorts’ when Scotland and and NI both voted Remain is risible. As is the notion that the Social Contract was broken by anything other than Thatcherism and Reganomics.
Fine article.
I’ve accepted the decision reluctantly, and fervently hope that Brexit proves a success in the medium and long term – if only for the sake of my kids.
But I cannot think of a less propitious time to embark on a path into splendid isolation.
This is heart-breaking to us Remainers. Many Brexiters I know, having voted leave, have applied for foreign passports and are thinking about leaving the country. Some famous ones are reportedly doing the same. And now, like you, so many of those who voted to leave are saying they regret their choice. So, you’ve lit the touch paper and are now leaving the sinking ship or are sitting there watching the fuse get shorter and, sort of, apologising. Well, that makes democracy idiotic. Thanks a bundle.
So how do you explain the government’s 80 seat majority barely a year ago? The government were elected to get Brexit done and the people backed them in record numbers. That on the back of the Brexit Party winning the European Parliament elections and 87% of the electorate voting for (nominally) pro-Brexit parties in the 2017 election. This so called buyer’s remorse is a myth you’re peddling.
God, you Remainers! The only regrets that Brexiteers have (the ones I know, anyway) is that we didn’t leave in 2016 and adopt WTO terms. (By the way, I’ll bet you have no idea what they are or why they are the default).
I think it is about time your heart finished breaking, and either embraced the new reality (whatever it will be) or gave up the ghost.
What about the ones you don’t?
https://whatukthinks.org/eu…
This man may claim to have voted leave, but within days of the referendum he was calling for a second one, so he’s not a very convincing ‘Eurosceptic’. And the voters (barring Mr West) have not changed their minds, as is quite clear from the result of the 2019 election.
My sense is that Brexit was absolutely not worth it. At least, at the moment there is no discernible benefit but huge and identifiable costs, both economic and political. But I don’t suppose we will really know the answer for two decades. We are about to take a new path and it could lead us to a better place in the long term (although I doubt it).
yes, many movies and tv shows feature the sadness and regrets of one or both partiers when divorce occurs.
and at those moments of regret, the individual remembers some of the good times, and briefly overlooks or minimizes the really bad times that were the reason for the break-up.
so as the sellers of tissues cash in on the increased buying by the tear-shedders over the next few weeks or months, and maybe some will even go to charlatan doctors who will give them quite unnecessary anti-depressants, more mature people will have the perspective to realize that break-ups can indeed be painful – but they occur for good reasons.
and as in “healthy” divorces, the hope is for a much happier future for both sides after the break.
but as any good therapist could tell you, if “young” children are involved, they are always – without exception – collateral damage, that has to be handled with great understanding, empathy, patience.
I don’t know how much of that can be shown to some of the extreme remainers, especially those in positions of enormous public influence such as the media,
many of us have little tolerance for the often grotesque dishonesty and distortions put out by many in the media that have contributed to an increasingly bitterly divisive political climate that often spills out into the streets.
Leaving the EU may just about save the UK as a sensible viable decent place to live.
Those who don’t recognize that are living in dreamland.
For all it’s high standards, regulations and equality expoused by EU politicians – they really are behind the curve when it comes to stopping Romania cutting down all it’s forests in the national park, the anti-gay restrictions and racism in Hungary and Poland,and the complete lack of financial flexibility – coupled with the ineptitude of the ECB- all I can say is glad we are out. Even now in last minute negotiations – they are still trying to tie the UK into their flawed business practices and restrictions. Let’s just say the British public will remember who their friends were – short memories some people.
Forestry is a national competence, even for the EU. If an overbearing EU was a problem, then it shouldn’t get the blame for not taking for itself the power to regulate a nation’s forestry.
Romania’s forest cover, mind, is 30% vs. the UK’s 13%.
The fundamental issue with wealthy nations lecturing poorer ones on forest loss is that they’re undermined by the fact that their wealth was predicated on clearing a lot of forests in the past for agriculture and also in Britain’s case, building a world-class navy that asserted dominance across the globe and enriched the country.
the british public seemingly can’t remember all the lies that Boris, Nigel & co have been saying all these years, otherwise they would have gotten rid of them by now. So I don’t expect them to remember anything much about anyone else.
Those facts did not come from UK politicians but EC websites.
The EU being lambasted up and down these comments for being an undemocratic tyrannical regime is now, according to you, not sufficiently inserting itself into national politics and decisions. It’s a lose-lose.
Yes.
Ed West is an excellent journalist and a true conservative. I was therefore hoping for some real insight here on such an important matter. Sadly I can’t see that he made any substantive arguments though…which is a pity…
Brexit is about feelings. As is your comment.
“Brexit is about feelings”
That should be a T-shirt
Theres no shame in realising and admitting you’re a snowflake Ed.
The process is long, and needs steadfast courage and conviction.
The past 4 years have convinced me more than ever that the decision was correct.
I was always concerned about free movement of people. A very right wing social ideal – if you can’t import cheaper goods, move cheaper people to compete on the production stage. It bring benefits but at a cost. The north felt that cost and it was ignored. Problem is, its essential if you’re not going to bother with customs and immigration checks in order to make life generally easier for everyone concerned. How could we allow a lorry in from Italy with lovely tomatoes if we wont let the driver cross the half dozen borders.
As ever, its all more complicated than that. Luckily, I’ve enjoyed free movement enormously. And now the single issue promises of the Brexit campaigns (yes, plural) are coming home to roost.
I’m glad that Ed is honest enough to express his mixed feelings.
The north felt that cost not because the EU was bad for the UK – the UK benefited massively from an economic standpoint. The north felt that cost because the conservative government has been underinvesting in it and enacting austerity measures hitting the poorer part of society.
Another “my struggle” with quips to convey intelligence, but its all emotional. A London trauma to extol at xmas drinks. The Swiss and Norwegians are finished by this account.
You think Brexiters would be happy with a Swiss or Norwegian relationship to the EU? Apart from the fact that we are approaching 10 times bigger than either.
Says more about the people he doesn’t like (who appear to be many) than why he has changed his mind. He failed the opportunity to actually explain why Boris Johnson is throwing GB to the lions.
A painfully honest and good article. One of the real tragedies in this whole saga is that it has exposed our unwillingness seriously to think that we could be wrong whatever side of the debate we are on. On this issue, as with so many in life, it is possible to be right but good. To be malicious to others, denigrate them and belittle them when you turn out to be in the right. The problem with Brexit is that there have often been two universes colliding with each other. One is the visceral emotion of those who are fed up with being pushed around by people who don’t understand you or care about you. The other universe is those who consider they know best and argue with economics etc. The end of this is just more misery for everyone. We just now have to make the best of a horrible situation, and try to be good rather than just right.
I miss trust anyone who claims to have had a complete volte-face in politics, I would be interested to know how Sam voted in the referendum? And how many times have I been told “it`s more complicated than you realise” by a remainer.
What you mean you don’t trust the likes of John Bercow…?!
That’s because no-one ever does it. Everybody’s too caught up with their political tribe and their egos to ever admit that they’re wrong. It’s too late to count, but at least he’s man enough to admit a mistake.
But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
For all the equivocation here politics is taking sides. If it were just a matter of rational calculation we could dispense with politicians and votes altogether and use computer models, as per Climatologists / Virologists among other paragons of Truth.
The voters of Sunderland or Barking & Dagenham, as distinct from Richmond upon Thames or Kensington & Chelsea, didn’t defy the forebodings of economic ruin because of material calculation even if that’s how some of them might have rationalised their decision. Their vote was an affirmation of nationhood.
Similarly this author is signalling his allegiance as a member of the opposing side: ‘Remainer’ / ‘elite’ / ‘anti-racist’ / ‘anywhere’ all symbolise principles of membership or identity against ‘little England’ / ‘racists’ / ‘somewheres’: the idea of nation as principle of political loyalty for Europeans.
No institution is more inimical to that idea of European membership than the EU itself whose defining purpose is the dissolution of the nation state as principal form of allegiance for Europeans. The assimilation of EU with Europe by this author is at best disingenuous.
Since end of Thirty Years War and Treaty of Westphalia European political identity has been predicated on territorially defined national autonomy, superseding religious allegiance – Northern Ireland an exception proving the rule. Nothing is more anti-European in that light than ‘Regugees Welcome’ EU. Remainers / ‘anti-racists’ / ‘snowflakes’ / ‘anywheres’ – choose your own term – see nationhood as an antiquated form of identity and themselves as members of a benevolent transnational ‘elite’.
The notion of “information” here – ‘the more I read about it’ – as if patriots were ill-informed, voting out of ignorance, a recurring Remainer theme, also echoes other forms of ‘elitism’, e.g. Bolshevik advocates of ‘re-education’.
No coincidence that the author is also predictably ‘correct’ on Covid and Climate: as uber- globalist, capo di tutti capi, Larry Fink, CEO BlackRock Inc, Agenda Contributor, World Economic Forum put it: “Covid, Climate and Racial Justice: the three great issues of our time”.
As one who felt pleased to vote for a pan Europe parliament and know that I had the right to freedom of movement, brexit never occurred to me as remotely desirable. The referendum lead to moving to Málaga before it was too late. Having done so I slowly came to have more of an understanding of the brexit position. As a basic rate taxpayer used to the simplicity of PAYE being faced with Spanish income tax was the first bucket of cold water. Having to have the towbar removed from the car in order to pass the local MOT was the next. Nothing insurmountable but niggling inconveniences and incessant bureaucracy brought me to the realisation that being free to visit for as long and whenever I pleased was preferable to actually being a fulltime resident. That right has alas gone at Britain’s insistence that freedom of movement must end.
My son has a small business in Spain and is treated as a criminal by Hacienda the tax authority, regularly subjecting him to inquisitions. You also have to pay VAT from the off, not like the £80,000 threshold you get here.
Let’s all watch Macron squirm over the next week.
He backtracks a lot – as he has done on the bill to criminalise photographing the police.
The two rogue states Poland and Hungary may yet put a spoke in the EU. How are they allowed to blatantly break the rules they agreed to follow when joining?
Too early to judge outcome.
See Sir John Redwood’s optimistic outlook.
If it fails, I will blame the French and the overpaid EU Commissionets!
Sorry Ed. Tough eh?
Given we haven’t yet Brexited, it will not be possible to assess pros and cons for years.
Brace up, Ed.
The author of this article is a fraud. As has been noted elsewhere, the bloke was writing pro-EU articles within days of the referendum result.
Pete Rose that is a strong statement but I see where you are coming from. I prefer to call the article itself unfortunate. The author is genuinely confused. He does not put forward any convincing argument for his conversion to a sad and lonely remainerhood (he does not even identify with a certain familiar type of metropolitan EU supporter with whom he might otherwise be able to commiserate). What drives his narrative is fuzzy sentiment and nostalgia for Europe not the EU.
“As for democracy, the dull truth is that international institutions have to be remote and undemocratic.” And that’s why they’re best avoided. Derrrr!
Sorry Ed, I’m back. I thought I was done with your weedy little piece, but I fear you may not have got the point yet. Let me go through these valueless comments of yours a bit more thoroughly ““ but not until I’ve made one of two general points:
I’m 57 years old; I studied languages at Oxford in the early 80s and have lived and worked in both France and Spain. I’ve earnt a crust in a number of (not very impressive) capacities over the years, and have wound up making a pittance as a private tutor, for some years in Kent and now in Norfolk ““ a job from which I often derive a great deal of pleasure and through which ““ unlike most of the people I studied with long ago ““ I’ve retained a fascination with language and foreign cultures, as opposed to a fascination with career trajectory and material convenience (which I don’t deny I had just a little bit more of). I’m always reading novels; usually one English and one in either French or Spanish. Increasingly I read in Italian and can cope with basic Portuguese and German. I’ve managed also to learn a fair bit of Swedish and I’ve even fiddled perennially with Russian. I’ve got friends in many countries around the world, but mostly in Europe. I absorb foreign history (much of it going in one ear and etc) and try to keep up with the contemporary scene. Mr West, I promise you that unless you have a similar background, you cannot possibly know more about ‘foreigness’ more than I do. Particularly, whatever you might know about the etymology of words – the heart and soul of all nationalities – will pale into nothingness besides what I know.
Now, I’m not usually an arrogant person; but you with your mewling, adolescent, dreamy leftist gibberish about “feeling European” have made me so. Despite my obsession with things foreign, I’m no more “European” than you are. ‘Europe’ is a recent, often questionable, geographical term; it can’t define us in any way other than to give a vague idea of where we live. It says nothing about our culture. Yet it’s precisely the difference between cultures and ““ a dirty word for people like you ““ nations that makes them interesting, and makes them strong. I’m that impossibly unfashionable, unmodern thing ““ a patriot. My patriotism gives me confidence but in no way separates me from ‘abroad’. Half my family lives in France; we meet and we rejoice in our differences but are profoundly connected by mutual concern and by that universal human instinct – hospitality. But despite being steeped in foreign cultures, I’m no more able to give up my essential Britishness ““ my Englishness, indeed ““ than I am of changing my native language. It’s the soul of me ““ and when I foolishly get a lump in my throat watching Eric & Ernie or hearing the Goons on the radio or the Queen at Christmas, I know who I am and I feel my history coursing through my veins.
Such deep-seated feelings also help me recognise what people like you are ““ something which in times gone by would have been summed up in that quaint old word: traitor. A hopelessly old-fashioned concept, of course, and one that sends snowflakes such as yourself, Mr West, into paroxysms of supercilious metropolitan liberal contempt. But you deny the notion of nationhood at your peril ““ for bureaucratic monoliths such as the EU thrive on the gutless denialism of useful idiots and the star-struck dreams of perfect international understanding that fill the otherwise empty space between your ears as you float around loving the smell of your own intestinal discharge and telling soppy stories about what your children reveal to you about life ““ like some saccharine, patronising BBC advert, woke to the core.
What Remainers like you, Mr West, simply cannot grasp is this: that patriots don’t care about being “right” or “wrong” about the economy. Oh sure, it would be nice if we prospered economically ““ and we may; but I’ve not once attempted, during the last wonderful five years, to argue that we’ll all be “better off” outside the EU ““ a) because I’m not expert or far-seeing enough to know one way or the other, and b) because I’m certain not only that in-dependence and national confidence are more important than de-pendence and some sappy utopian vision of ‘Euronationality’, but also that the thing which it’s important to be dependent from is deeply, fundamentally flawed. Yes, my own government is flawed – of course it is. But ““ and this may come as a shock to you ““ the European ‘government’ is oh so much more riddled with corruption and the deliberately designed structural obscurities that are the natural breeding places of authoritarianism. Faced with a bureaucracy of such proportions, it doesn’t seem clever to wait around for improvements (“working to improve things from inside” as saps like Cameron and other Remainer shills put it). I suspect that like most Remainers, you are principally concerned with your material prosperity. This is the worst of your characteristics, and the most frequently encountered among your endless whining sympathisers. The fact that it’s now a little hackneyed is proof of Benjamin Franklin’s very frequently quoted words about liberty and safety, which I’ll leave you to look up, as I’m guessing you don’t know them.
I reiterate: my profound love of nation, Mr West, does not make me ‘anti-foreign’. Tout à fait le contraire. Por el contrario. Im Gegenteil. It enables me to see where the differences are between peoples ““ which I celebrate and discuss and find endless fascinating ““ and where the similarities are; those universal bonds of which I believe that you know nothing. Hein coco – vive la différence?
Well, I said I’d go through your little article point by point ““ but suddenly I’m exhausted with it. Your frail, grizzling bleating appalls me. Another time perhaps?
Even though I considered Brexit a mistake (& the referendum) I could never imagine myself holding ‘I Heart EU’ placards at Remainer rallies. I put this down to a reluctance to align one’s self with ‘politico’ types of a certain liberal/professional mindset that Ed West identifies above.
Change is not easy. We were bounced further into the EU without discussion after the initial decision, I.e.No discussion re Maastricht. It took years and civil wars to move from Catholicism to Protestantism. Why should Brexit be any different?
Strange. I’ve posted a number of comments in recent weeks, but my response to this article was “moderated”. Perhaps pointing out the fundamental flaws in the Deputy Editor’s arguments was too close to the bone. And yes, I have checked the Comment Policy. On this topic, it appears that I will be unheard.
Ed, in answer to your question, “Yes.”
I did a very expensive course in Opthalmology, then decided to quit just after I got my first, well paid, job
Have faith. The people who can make change happen are not the same as those who can get the best out of that change.
I think many of the perceived ills of the EU owe as much to implementation as they do to intent.
For example, the EU allowing countries to opt OUT of immigration controls was a mistake. The UK opted out but most of the others DIDN’T. This meant it was a lot harder for Brits to up sticks and move abroad. But worse, it made it a lot hard for Eastern Europeans to up sticks and move to places like Spain, France, Holland… though they did. But it was easier to come to the UK where we’d take anyone – thus pushing down wages in a country with a high cost of living – and putting millions on benefits and out of work. Yay us… But “it’s the EU’s fault”…
The insistence that “Brexit means Brexit” – is ridiculous as it means imposing a hard break where a more gradual shift would be far less damaging to the UK. Leaving everything at the end of December 2020 (regardless of trading agreements which are worthless) will be a profound and needless shock to the UK economy and present a potential trigger for the resumption of troubles in Northern Ireland.
We also have this insane focus on fishing – everything is about fishing and rights to fish and ability to land catches… from fishing rights that were sold to overseas fishermen years ago. Meanwhile how will we get any food into the country? Meanwhile how will we get medicines in? Meanwhile how will the car industry survive? Meanwhile how will the creative industries – the arts, music, theatre – how will those artists be able to work in the EU?
One of the reasons British artists perform and exhibit in the EU is because it is easy. The rest of the world is ridiculously expensive (visas, permits, inventories, customs, prepayment of VAT on all as-yet-unsold merchandise – all of which must be done individually for every single country visited and woe betide if someone gets sick and has to go home and a substitute performer brought out). This is all about to become the case for the EU. I don’t know many small bands who can afford to pay £250+ per musical instrument per country to do an EU tour. But I know quite a lot of fairly BIG bands with big followings on the continent who will no longer be able to afford to tour. The creative industry is worth about 100x what the fishing industry is worth and in about 3 weeks it will be decimated – after a year in which it was bled dry by Coronavirus restrictions.
Anyway – Ed – you knew all this when you voted for it.
You won. Get over it. And PLEASE – please own it. With “control” comes responsibility…
What have the travails of private money-making subjects or citizens to do with the Constitutional powers of Government, Nothing. Rien, Nichts. Nimic…..
I voted ‘remain’ but with no great conviction. I voted that way because of the potential economic shocks Brexit might cause, but I think I hold principles more favourable to leaving.
The EU is remote, it is too big to be a responsive democracy (I think the UK is too, I envy the likes of Iceland and Switzerland), it is heading for a closer union that not all of its members actually want, their populations being very divided on the issue. And it was too often used as an excuse for inaction by Westminster. That excuse now goes away.
So now that the decision has been made, I find little to disagree with and just wish the process over. All the people upset that their freedom of movement is being curtailed sound hollow and were unlikely going to move anyway – we have decades of figures showing that Brits on the whole don’t, and when they do go somewhere else it’s largely to anglophone countries round the world.
I’m not a cheerleader for either side, Brexit isn’t an emancipation or a disaster, just something which has momentarily disrupted politics. It’s high time we sorted it out and moved on.
I agree with many of your sentiments, but if I could just challenge one point: your assessment of Brexit as ‘just something which has momentarily disrupted politics.’ If that is meant to say that politics was going on smoothly and Brexit is a little blip, I would have to disagree. I think it is probably the most fundamental event of politics in my lifetime. Add the unforeseen Trump phenomenon (the effects of which may outlive his presidency) and the movements against the EU in many countries of the EU, and the disruption has the potential to be rather more profound and long-lasting.
The Trump phenomenon certainly shows few signs of stopping any time soon, he seems to be gathering supporters and money for some purpose (a future PAC from what I can tell) and even without that, these last few weeks of assault on the integrity of US democracy are going to leave a lasting mark one way or another.
UK politics was pretty boring, IMHO, up until the fateful referendum. I wouldn’t necessarily say it was going “smoothly”, but it seemed to be business as usual. You might be right, this might be a massively disruptive change which fundamentally alters UK life. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see!
what do you envy Switzerland for, it has signed up to literally everything in the EU. If you want to be like switzerland, you’re better off as a member of the EU. Iceland is a member of EFTA and as such is pretty much also signed up to everything (with small exceptions) in the EU as well.
I envy the ability of relatively small groups of people to get proposals for laws in front of their legislative body in Switzerland (IIRC, 100k people?) in a way that forces said body to take them seriously and review them, and their frequent public consultations/referendums on policy. It seems that Swiss democracy is much more in the hands of the Swiss people that ours is when it comes to either Westminster or Brussels.
Similarly Iceland has a small enough population that again, laws and policies can be changed with the will of a relatively small group.
It’s not so much about the directions those two countries are heading in, regarding EU membership, as the accessibility of democratic power to the ordinary people.
The accessibility of democratic power by ordinary people is a purely domestic issue that has nothing to do with the EU.
In any event, Switzerland and Iceland have no seat in Brussels. The UK was one of the most important seats in Brussels.
Switzerland and Iceland are complete rule-takers with barely any say in how things go around them.
They can choose not to take the rules just like the UK did and would suffer economically in a similar way. Switzerland tried to stop free movement and had to roll that back real quick when they realised they’d be cut off from their main economic partner.
The UK was at the helm of the biggest economic alliance in the world – the UK voters had disproportionate power over a whole continent. It’s crazy that instead of embracing this role, the UK government instead preferred to blame the EU for its own failings.
It has a lot to do with the EU, or rather with the sheer size of the EU – making any change to legislation or governance in a body that represents hundreds of millions of people spread over a huge area is next to impossible for groups of ordinary folk. I have severe misgivings about any democratic project of that size and whether it’s even possible for such a body to be in any way responsive to the differing needs of its population(s). Whereas in Iceland with its population of 400k, a few thousand people banding together can effect serious change to national policy.
I’ve already explained it’s not their relationship to the EU that interests me, but their democratic structure and small democratic population. I’m not sure why you persist in berating me about how they’ve decided to interact with the EU here.
In your first paragraph you argue the issue with internal democracy is not a domestic one, but has a lot to do with the EU.
In the second paragraph you explain that actually internal democracy has nothing to do with the EU, and is a purely domestic thing.
See the paradox yet?
If you want the UK to be like Switzerland, it’s not the EU-membership part you need to fix, because the UK as a member had infinitely more control over what goes on in the EU than Switzerland. You need to fix the purely domestic democratic structure.
Hold your nerve old chap
No mention of the spread of fascism in the EU – Hungary, Poland, Spain….etc
It’s too late. We are gone and it looks like without the trade deal that was going to be ‘so simple to arrange’. There’s going to be economic pain, probably not helped by the lack of preparations for what comes in January, but then we have to get on with it. Come on you lot. Get your thinking caps on, be enterprising, find solutions. We are an intelligent (relatively) population who find themselves in a bit of a hole. Staring at the floor won’t help things !!
But politics, that’s to say identity / membership / belonging is necessarily ’emotional’. You don’t value your own family’s interests over those of strangers out of economic utility: you wouldn’t let your child’s bedroom out to the highest bidder. No different in principle. One’s ethnic group can also be understood historically and genetically as a tie of membership: what Roger Scruton defined as “transcendent bonds of allegiance”.
No one put it better than the mighty Europhile, Francophone, Wagnerian, Greek scholar and philosopher Enoch Powell at the time of the first referendum: ‘Whose show do you want to belong to, ours or theirs?’
Though he never felt it would be other than to our economic advantage Powell’s position was always: better to be poorer in one’s own country than richer in someone else’s.
Of course nationhood is largely imaginary: ‘you have to win your identity ever anew’ as he put it. What we call “the left” being a negative form of identity founded on what Powell’s friend Scruton termed a “culture of repudiation”, a rejection of inherited identity peculiar to West/Christendom.
Which helps explain why ‘In’ was ‘right wing’ in 1975 and ‘left wing’ forty years later, race and culture having displaced economics as principle of membership for “the left”: economic class giving way to race as scapegoating rationale: “racism” as animating principle in place of “capitalism” legitimising political violence or “struggle”.
It’s remarkable that “the left” recognise identity or membership as the supreme political principle for all groups other than their own whose right to nationhood they defend as “self-determination”. But that’s all “racists” or “somewheres” like Powell or Scruton desire for themselves.
No conclusions those we all already know. Article shows exacly what politicians do: stay over the wall and jump to the side of reelection interests.
The real question to be considered is why has the democratic process failed the British electorate. How many people who voted to leave the EU voted in their minds for no deal regardless? How many voted in their minds, well yes, as along as we get a deal. We shall never know. The question the electorate was asked was flawed and the difference between the Brexiteers and the Remainers was only 4%. But if the question had included no deal regardless I’m sure the difference would have been less that 4%, or more likely a result for remain. Assuming we don’t get a deal which looks to be the favourite outcome, have the ‘Great British Public’ considered how difficult life is going to be in the next few years? And how the EU will put the boot into us at every possible opportunity, and that this democratic revolution, which is what it is, has been driven by a man who has never been elected to Westminster and probably never will or want to be now. Right now as a nation we are in the Hotel California, we can check out but we can never leave. Some day that will change but it will be years before we have real freedom, by which time we may well be England, not Great Britain. Thanks a bunch Nigel, good luck with your radio station.
Ah, “And how the EU will put the boot into us at every possible opportunity,” So your fear drives you to please your master. Remember someone arriving back from some European city waving a piece of paper and promising peace in our time? A policy driven by fear.
Cowards die many times times before their death, The valiant only taste of death but once. Not suggesting that Brexit supporters ar all valiant, but do think the Remainers are essentially cowards and frightened of their own shadows.
Funny, I’ve always seen the Brexit voters as essentially fearful. Afraid of change and the future. Trying to turn back the clock on a frightening world and make things how they used to be.
Unfortunately, the EU is a 20th century solution posing as “the future”. It’s a post-democratic solution; a statist solution – all those ludicrous unelected “presidents”. But our problems cannot be solved that way. We need more democracy, not less.
Yes, the EU represents the same threat as Nazi Germany! Why didn’t the Poles and the Dutch and the Belgians just vote to leave the Reich, I ask?
I’m not afraid I just don’t think the process was democratic and it was influenced unduly by a non elected aspirant politician who can now step back from the result without being held responsible for his actions. Proper democratic processes should protect the electorate from such people.
I went to the referendum ballot box in 2016 wishing that I had 3 votes, so that I could cast 1 to leave and 2 to remain. I saw both sides of the argument. Indeed, each time a remainer stood up to speak I became a fervent Brexiteer and the opposite when the Brexiteers lied, er, spoke. With the same hindsight Ed professes, I would now use all 3 in favour of staying. We have to cling to the fact that, whether Nigel and IDS like it or not, we are still Europeans and, one day, we will rejoin the EU, if the Russians haven’t destroyed it in the meantime.
‘We are still European’ – geographically yes, in the same way Korea and Oman are both Asian – it is meaningless beyond that.
The point about the UK government placing blame on the EU for its own decisions cannot be overstated, particularly when it comes to issues affecting those who are the most disadvantaged. For example, the payment of benefits to new arrivals from the EU is within the remit of the UK government, as is the power to send home those people who are unable to support themselves; the paltry pensions in the UK pale into insignificance compared to those in many comparable economies in Europe; industrial policy, education policy, investment in the NHS, management of the railways…….there’s a long list of things the UK could have done differently, for the benefit of the people, but chose not to.
It was absolutely apparent 4 years ago that this would be a disaster of epic proportions; not least because over the past 35 years British industry had been closed down and sold off(frequently to European concerns). No economic independence = no political independence.
It was also apparent that Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mog, Liam Fox, Bill Cash et al were/are an unsavoury bunch of charlatans, spivs, chancers, crazed ideologues.
This debacle absolutely knocks Suez into the proverbial cocked hat as they used to say.
“Easiest trade deal in human history”, Britain “will prosper mightily outside the EU” how deluded can you get? Shocking really that such an intelligent man as Ed West could have been so easily taken in
You mean that the British car industry run by the British was a success story right?
I can speak for the City and all the British financial institutions that were created post Big Bang got WIPED OUT by the American banks.
And that happened because those British financial institutions (should I say English) were full of Brits and British business culture.
None of this detracts from my observation that 0 economic independence = 0 political independence.
We are in any case up the creek without a paddle because of the historical reluctance going back well over a century of the City to invest long term in British industry – as a result the French have a car industry and we don’t. Nissan on which Sunderland depends is French owned. The Japanese, an island power, would never have got themselves into this mess. Back in the late eighties the chief of one of their giant combines said that the City “money game has a certain logic but I ask how do the British people think they can make a living in the world long term?”. There was no answer then – and there’s none now.
You talk of the American banks in the City, where a Wild West culture was imported – this contributed mightily to the financial debacle of 2008 when the financial crew strong armed the hapless Brown’s gov’t into issuing a series of blank cheques to the banksters drawn upon the British taxpayers. Resulting in a decade of austerity and the further hobbling of the economy from then on. Frankly a pox on the City.
I pointed out the economic reality during the foreign aid lunacy debate, and this comment is just as relevant here, more so in fact
Previous post
“You just have to wonder what planet these liberals are on. The 4 and a bit countries which give the same or more as a percentage of GDP are Norway, Sweden, Denmark ,Netherlands and Luxembourg, All have an appreciably higher GDP per capita than the UK, Lux is number one. All are in the top 20 of world current account surplus balances = real wealth, eg Norway’s Sovereign Wealth Fund. The UK is in the bottom 20 of countries with CA deficits. This is a country which hasn’t run a surplus since 1984!
Back in 2011 Peston reported that the UK’s aggregate debt were the biggest in the G7, 5 times GDP, god knows what the multiple is now. BOE Quantitative Easing will reach £875 billion, obviously a fancy term for printing money.
If the upshot of systemtic economic weakness plus covid plus Brexit is systemic economic collapse that should come as no suprise.”
It’s easy to get a trade deal when the people who are conducting the negotiations actually believe in getting one.
The problem is that May was totally dishonest and was trying to keep us in, and BJ doesn’t really believe in it either. Kind of shows you the importance of a democratic vote doesn’t it. What happens when your politicians don’t represent you? Let’s ask Greece shall we.
Who would you suggest then? This is a very messy acrimonious divorce, in such matters goodwill to expedite agreements tends to be in short supply. And the UK is not in a strong position
‘Who would you suggest then?’ Civil servants who do not put their political beliefs first and act with impartiality. You know, because that’s what civil servants are supposed to do. If they can’t do that then they should have been honest, recused themselves and resigned.
We had David Davis in charge and May went behind his back so he resigned. I would suggest that he would have been quite capable of forming his own team and it would have been sorted by now. The only problem was that he was sabotaged and marginalised from the start because May was not trying to go for Brexit and lied to the country about it.
And by the way, if you start with a ‘huh, David Davis isn’t too hot’ sort of thing then know this. He was in the SAS territorial infantry section. He holds a Molecular Science/Computer Science degree and has a Masters in Business Management.Was part of senior management at Tate and Lyle before becoming a politician.
Beats PPE at Oxford donchathink? Along with most ‘expert ‘ Guardian columnists no doubt.
Stabbed in the back then
My perceived riddle of your political persona has been resolved 😊
However, unlike you I have no regrets and here is why!
Like the supranational USA but in a different way, the EU will be progressively cleaved between europhillia and euroskepticism. The irony of course being that this conflictual ideological dynamic has been superimposed on every EU state. So essentially, the undemocratic EU Treaties have inadvertently created an additional layer of conflict across Europe whilst at the same time, exhorting ‘unity in diversity’.
This will surely result in a democratic/technocratic reckoning akin to an ideological civil war with Europe as a whole split between two irreconcilable forces. So much for European peace.
Thus Brexit is not only supported by British euroskeptics but European euroskeptics too, along with national Democrats the world over.
Hence for me, Brexit is not only about National Sovereignty but on a deeper more totemic level, it is about the inherent conflict between Democracy and Technocracy and the appropriate balance between the two. Brexit in other words is not only a battle (which might escalate into a trade war) between Democracy and Technocracy but a human evolutionary reckoning too!
In this regard, the one party supranational State of EU Technocracy does not bode well. Not only is the EU single market (aka the EU Treaties) fundamentally unsustainable
https://www.stockholmresili…
https://www.stockholmresili…
but the cultural cleavage that the EU Treaties are progressively evoking will mean that its ecological unsustainability will eventually result in an internecine economic war. In other words, without radical reform, the EU is currently heading down an evolutionary dead end.
Hence the importance of leaving the EU Treaties, so that we as a European country can democratically ‘preserve life-sustaining standards for its citizens’. Thus, Sovereignty is not only about taking back democratic control over our laws, borders and trade but is also about taking back control of the responsibility to protect the rights and interests of the population living on Britain, despite what disenchanted technocrats have to say!
https://www.socialeurope.eu…
Therefore, Brexit is about taking back control of our national sustainability, national resilience and national sufficiency with the implicit understanding that we rely on free trade to satisfy our extensive import dependancies. It is this vision that unites Brexiteers.
Consequently I hope, despite currently feeling disenchanted, that you will be joining us on our evolutionary mission to safeguard our national responsibilities and rights to create a sustainable, resilient and sufficient future for ALL including human Nature, tamed Nature and wild Nature.
https://goodlife.leeds.ac.uk/
#PaxBrittania 🇬🇧
#PaxGlobal ðŸŒ
I always enjoy reading Ed West and consider him a most valuable representative of traditional Conservative Party values. All I can do in response to this essay is apply Mrs Thatcher’s admonition to President Reagan – “Don’t go wobbly on me, Ed”.
Johnson won the election in part because he promised to Get Brexit Done allied to the fact that the message resonated in areas where Labour had to all intents and purposes decided it was not worth the effort of campaigning in. Tied to this was the promise to ‘level up’, more Cummings than Johnson I suspect, again resonating in areas that the 13 years of Blairism had done little about, other than to build huge Logistics Centres distributing the goods once made there but now shipped from the Far East and Eastern Europe or Shopping and Leisure Centres to give them somewhere to fill their time.
Now, on the eve of leaving the promises are ringing hollow. There will be no Brexit bonus. Covid is disproportionately hitting the areas already heavily disadvantaged and the internal divisions within the UK, geographic, economic and cultural are getting worse. For those of us outside the metropolitan bubbles it makes little or no difference where sovereignty lies because it doesn’t lie with us even within our own country.
Ruled by Brussels? Ruled by London? Makes no odds to us. The Tories? The Labour Party? No difference if you live in an ex industrial town where the only answer on offer is to get out and into the cities whilst you can. So, in or out of the EU the difference will be barely noticeable except that EU regional aid will be gone and in the ravaged economic landscape of Covid + Brexit there will be nothing available to replace it.
Labour will still court the city and university towns, waiting for the old to die and with them our unacceptable opinions whilst the young stay loyal and deliver the promised land of Wokedem, sometime in the 2030’s. What the Tories do is anyone’s guess as for the last 5 years they, more than any other group save Farage and his followers, have obsessed about Brexit and when it is done what else have they? In over 50 years of following politics only Mrs Thatcher had any idea of what she and the Tories should do and we are still grappling with that legacy.
So Goodbye to Brussels but hello to what? It seems only the SNP has any idea but the way to achieve it has to be negotiated with 2 parties that know what they don’t want on this topic but have no idea what they do. Not forgetting the voters who just want those who presume to Govern to actually do so more effectively than they currently seem able to.
The first time I ever felt European was in 1987, when I first visited the USA. It is a common misconception that we speak the same language. Perhaps time in the political and economic wilderness will enable a deluded English populace to reflect on what it really wants. Even the past is a foreign country.
A terrific historical perspective on these issues is in today’s Telegraph:
“Our time in the EU was a calamity for Britain and a disaster for Europe
As de Gaulle recognised, it would have been better for everyone if we had never joined the European Union”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk…
” If Brexit turns out to be a mistake “
We’ll never know if Brexit is a mistake because no-one ever said what Brexit meant.
For me it’s already a mistake because Freedom of Movement was important to me for work. I’ve had friends who lived in the UK for 20 years leave because of the referendum .
For Free-market Tories who believe fervently in global trade , deregulation and seek a FTA with the US like a holy grail it will always be a success .
I feel I’ve had important freedoms taken away . They seem to have been set free.
They hated the EU and I felt the same way about the EU as my local council.
For Brexiteers it’s been 40 years of agitation and we have a PM whose first job was writing anti-EU stories . Brexit for them has succeeded
I greatly regret Brexit and feel no shame at having marched to expresss my distress. I felt then, and still feel as I did then, that people like myself, aged 81, should not have had a vote. The consequences of Brexit will fall disproportionately on the economically active population and not on the pensioners. However, I also agree with Robert Shrimsley, writing in the Financial Times, yesterday or the day before, arguing that we must now live with Brexit and hope, against all the evidence, that our government knows what it is doing. It is now up to the Brexiteers to deliver on their mendacious promises. One assertion, much repeated during the campaign, which feels particularly relevant today, is that “Agreeing a new free trade deal with Europe will be simple and straightforward”. I could never understand how the Brexiteers thought the arrangements for Ireland would work and I still don’t. However, let us remainers hold our peace and see what happens next. I strongly recommend reading ‘The Capital’, a perceptive satire on the EU by Robert Menasse.
The Irish issue only arose because Mrs May (ultimately a Remainer not even in a Leaver’s clothing) made several catastrophic negotiating mistakes, in agreeing to the EU’s sequencing. If she had held them to their treaty obligations (to negotiate the future relationship at the same time as the exit) the UK would have been in a far stronger position. It wasn’t the mendacity of Brexiteers but rather the connivance and self-harm of Remainers that dragged this process out and severely weakened our hand.
Secondly, the EU has reneged on Barnier’s original offer (in his famous staircase graph from 2016) of a Canada trade deal and its commitment to honour UK sovereignty in the WA.
La véritable perfidie reste parmi les Ultras-Européens…
So one can ONLY presume, given your opening statement, you took the apparently ‘honourable’ course you espouse, and did not vote in the referendum?
What were you doing even marching when you think people of your age should not vote or be politically engaged?
Pot kettle purple-faced, idiot, racist, bigot gammon, Ed? You probably thought you were being fair but this colourful language betrays more than you perhaps intended to let on. Whereas one side ought to be mistrusted for their character, beliefs and track record, the other side can be disregarded (as they often are) for their ever so problematic physiognomy and the associated simple-mindedness?
You are right, however, about increased social hatred . A point many banal commentators
like to ape is that “we are more divided than ever”. This is false. The divide has always been there, it is nothing new. The crux is, one side has, until recently, been able to very cleverly obfuscate the actual divide and redirect the tribalism into issues that suit them.
The increased hatred (and awareness of division) comes from other side having the audacity to start noticing that the game is rigged against them, meanwhile
which always knows they are right, on every question, rather than own up to fixing the game and give way, has doubled down on their contempt for the “gammons” for being ignorant enough to defy their betters. It’s become so vitriolic, most of them (except some tory opportunists) have forgotten how much better they are served by concealing it.
And for the record I still don’t see any purple-faces anywhere near the helm. What I have seen is over three years of naked attempted sabotage against another sect of that London type (again obfuscating the divide) who’s opportunism marginally outweighs their contempt for the purples. But this is fault of the purples who had one very low resolution opportunity to hit back at those who hold them in such contempt?
And should this farce go bad, do you really think the London types gleefully hanging this around the neck of a waking gammon consciousness will assuage their anger? If the country is going to heal (it won’t), it’s not the purples who should be in docket in the truth and reconciliation hearings.
……..Bring it on.
The best pro-Brexit argument is the USA. How much better off the world would be if the French had won the 7 Years (French & Indian) War, and the colonies maintained their separate regional polities.
I guess Germany would have (eventually) won the First World War, knocking out France, so Europe would be dominated by a conservative German monarchy. Or perhaps there would never have been a French Revolution and Europe would be dominated by competing German and French monarchies. Britain, assuming it remained a naval power, would probably focus on empire in southern Africa, South Asia, the Far East, and remain a relatively open/liberal society.
WW I was a tie. And my thesis would be that a multi-polar, balance of power, world were infinitely preferable to the one which actually ensued as a result of the US putting its thumb on the scale.
How could I forget -that which is most impoverishing all of us- leave NATO please! As well, leave the SWIFT bank, and dollar dominance. Make the US live by the same economic laws as the rest of humanity.
https://whatukthinks.org/eu…
Testing. Last time I tried I was barred due to being spam!
Do not cut and paste anything at all and do not post any live links.
Also, there are certain proscribed words, ‘S E X’ bizarrely being one of them.
Hope this helps.
Thanks. I think I’ve sorted it. A mistake I may have made was in a previous post referring to a self published book when there was a conversation trail related to the topic I had covered. I wouldn’t mind but I wasn’t even seeking to earn a penny from the book!
Having read this article it occurs to me that those who voted for Brexit remain oblivious to what they have actually unleashed. The real issue here is not about economic damage or any of the other nasties we have yet to endure from separating from the EU. Brexiteers have set a terrifyingly dystopian precedent in the UK and one that, going forward, has set the standard that we will all have to live under: It is perfectly ok to lie, in the extreme, in a deliberate and repeated way to every man woman and child in this country to get what you want when you cannot obtain it via truthful means. This is what has now been normalised by these people and it doesn’t go back in the box. At the very moment our political class required reining in the brexiteering public instead gave them the green light to extinguish all truth forever if needs be. How does a democracy survive in such an environment? I can forgive people who make unwitting mistakes and come to regret their decisions but I will never forgive those who gave their support to the Brexit cause knowing they were having to use levels of lying that are normally only seen in the darkest of nations where no one is ever safe. That I will never forgive and I suspect that as we continue our slide into the dystopia they have now opened the door to neither will many of their offspring as they will be the one’s that ultimately pay the price for this.
Having read your comment it occurs to me that you’re oblivious to what the EU actually is.
Thank you Ed. As a remain voter I would like to read your article again whenever I feel hateful, resentful or angry towards Brexiteers who brought us to this point. Your article reminds me of the great number of decent, thinking people like you and my mum who supported Brexit. You remind me that intolerable smugness isn’t the exclusive preserve of either side. And you remind me that whatever happens next, we are all in it together.
Brought us to what point?
1d
For an erstwhile Leaver the author seems to have dropped quite comfortably into the reductionist attitudes of some within the Remain camp. As a Left Wing Leaver I have routinely encountered such types demanding that I show them ‘one positive thing that has happened as a result of Brexit’ – despite the fact that, at the time, we were still in the process of doing so.
What, after almost fifty years of EEC/EU membership, did anyone imagine was going to happen in less than four months of the end of that relationship. Brexit was never an end in itself simply the beginning of a new epoch of politics for both us in the UK, and for the EU itself. What comes after will be a matter of national self-determination. That was always the point.
Admittedly the self-immolation of the political Left (as characterised by the British Labour Party) will have a negative effect in the short term but that is a symptom of a broader malaise within the Party and can not be blamed on the Referendum. Nor was it a reason not to vote to leave the Union.
Write this article again in ten or fifteen years and, if your fears prove to have been true, I will willingly concede that I was wrong. But at this juncture, so soon after our departure, there is nothing meaningful to be said.
People like you really do live in a bubble. The world is divided into insufferable remainers who “certainly went to oxbridge …”. (How many people in this country went to oxbridge? Think I’ve known one or two in my whole life & I’m 66) , and “purple faced golf club bores”. Think I know one person who belongs to a golf club. This awful caricature of the U.K. population says it all. The overwhelming majority of people in this country are nowhere near either of these appalling cartoon characters. You begin to realise this stuff about the “London centric” nature of media is not just made up, it is for real and deeply damaging. There really is no need to go through all that nonsense to work out that Brexit was not a good idea. My heart really does go out to all the poor sods at the bottom who were taken in by liar Johnson and will suffer from the mess he has created with Brexit.
Good point. And the caricatures he paints are probably hated by all of us.
You’re not alone in realising your mistake. Polls show there has been a consistently increasing majority thinking we should remain in the EU from within weeks of the referendum. Now we have arrived, four and a half years later, on the verge of the ludicrous worst of all worlds position – no deal – with the biggest majority ever in the country for not leaving at all.
Polls are worthless. How do you account for the 2019 European and general election results?
Leaving Europe will be successful. At heart we are a small nimble trading nation who will win and prosper because we will be freed from the shackles of an overmighty, deadhanded bureaucracy which just wants to restrict, harmonise and control us. I would be astonished if in say, five years time, our GDP is not significantly greater than the average for Europe including that of Germany.
This sounds great, but it’s completely untrue. At heart, britain is a huge empire, exploiting its colonies and subjugating its rivals with military might. None of that is in place anymore. You have no colonies to exploit and you can’t fight opium wars anymore. Enjoy your prosperity.
A ‘small nimble trading nation’? Come on – what does that even mean?
There won’t be an EU by this time next year. It will be bankrupt, and organisations such as the UN, IMF, World Economic Forum, and Trans-Atlantic council will all be dismantled, as Trump takes another 4 years in office. He now has control of the Federal Reserve and Central Bank, so they will not be allowed to bring about the world collapse of the economy, and he won’t allow the EU to have unlimited access to central bank funding. January 20th will be a turning point in history.
the Federal Reserve AND the Central Bank? Dude is working overtime.
What you on, lad?
Eh?
What a turncoat! Of course Brexiteers like me are not the cause of any mistake, as we always did know more than the general public and knew that our history and pragmatism, hatred of bullying and love of democracy were superior to anything on the Continent. You say, ‘… [the EU] has made many British people feel fully European for the first time, me included. On holiday last year I felt deep regret at the thought of separation from our fellow Europeans, especially while in Holland, with which Britain has an especially strong connection.’ Yes, like you, in one sense I feel sad at losing our European connections but I never felt European and that was because my British identity I felt (and still feel) is more important than a shared vision of anywhere rather than somewhere, to misquote the dreaded T. May. No, this lack of connection was the fault of the EU for trying to subsume, stifle bully and conquer us than the fault of any Brexiteer. The EU is a monster – bullying, lying, underhand, snide, undemocratic, unaccountable, patronising, racist and profligate … and it is for those reasons our dear country decided to leave that ghastly institution, whatever happens next. You also say, ‘As for democracy, the dull truth is that international institutions have to be remote and undemocratic.’ Why? I find Boris and the new warts-and-all Britishness far more exciting, democratic and inspirational than any one of the grey, puffed-up EU apparatchiks adhering to what the Commission tells them for fear of criticising the EU and losing all their money and perks at the expense of the taxpayers of Europe. So, actually, your initial Eurosceptic feelings were correct: stick with them – they were the emotions of honour, the wish for freedom and a true democracy. I will feel no regret at leaving and I believe, in time, as the EU becomes more moribund, statist and unappealing to a growing number of its people, you will return to your initial Eurosceptic views.
If you are not responsible for the mistakes – as you say – who is?
I always bang on about COMPETENCE on this site, and it is beyond doubt that Brexiters are incompetent.
The question is
1) Why are Brexiters in position of power so incompetent
2) what does it say about a movement (including you) that produced such incompetence?
Well one reason would be that the remainers used every tool they could to block brexit, and still seem to be trying to do it. If we’d have a genuine leaver way back we might have sorted things out earlier.
So Remainers were to blame for Gove/Boris backstabbing?
How about planning? Where is the Brexit plan?
Not empty words, details please! Or is MSM responsible for that?
Probably – after all if Cameron (a remainer) hadn’t gone back on his promise there would have been no need for a leadership election and we’d have been in a bigger mess with David doing the negotiating.
If you want one with all the i’s dotted and the t’s crossed there isn’t one – welcome to the real world
Fair enough. I don’t have the details you are so obviously wanting.
WHAT?
However, I’d like you to set out in meticulous detail the justification for remainers trying to reverse the referendum and refusing to give “losers’ consent”
One can be a competent torturer.It is not a moral quality. You’re really saying ‘Why oh why can’t everybody be like ME!’
We are not talking about torture. We are talking about governance!
Surely you can see the difference?
You were talking about this mysterious quality: competence. It is utterly irrelevant to goodness.
Nice try!
You’ll find that it was the Remainers who were incompetent. They have been running proceedings since Brexit, hence why things have been handled poorly as they don’t really want to leave. Nice try.
You make an important point, although it may not be the one you intend! Brexiters were never competent enough to achieve political power – it was only Cameron’s idiocy and political cowardice that let them in. Their incompetence has been confirmed many times since.
Brilliant satire!
I voted for remain but since 2016 I have come to the conclusion that I do not want to be part of a federation that cheerfully accepts the behaviour of countries like Poland and Hungary.
Are the negotiators mad? They reject cooperative future relations with the United Kingdom, representing 20% of the EUs economy, but keep economic disasters like Italy close.
If they can accept membership of a dictatorship like Hungary, they should be able to accept a tolerant relationship with the U.K. and leave the door wide open for rejoining if it all goes wrong.
The negotiators don’t represent the UK, they represent the EU, which includes Italy. Hungary is unfortunate and the EU will have to find its way around this issue. It’s astonishing how people think Britain should continue to have its cake and eat it.
Orban has been overwhelmingly elected two or three times by the Hungarians. Apparently Jewish restaurants operate freely in Budapest, whereas in other European cities they need military protection. (A Jewish restaurant in Amsterdam has been attacked on a regular basis by the usual suspects). The same applies to Law & Justice in Poland, although I think they are in the wrong with regard to abortion and the reports of ‘No LGTBQ’ zones are obviously disturbing. In fact, the Poles are so smart that for some years their parliament contained not a single socialist.
Outside of the MEPs, who have virtually no power except the power to steal, none of the goons and tyrants in Brussels has been elected.
Yet it’s Brexiters who reject the idea of a political union! And it is entirely the UK that is rejecting ‘co-operative future relations’, by refusing to commit to not racing to the bottom in regulatory terms.
Stay and reform it! Leaving is an act of childishness. And of economic disaster. All back to the nonsense of Margaret Thatcher’s little Englanders. The UK is now a second rate power and with isolation from the EU will become third rate. And may break up. Turning to the USA is madness as Ed writes “Most of all, though, has been the realisation this year that American political culture is an irredeemably corrosive and dangerous force.” Biden will be Obama again and look how little he changed anything.
What do you think Cameron tried to do before the referendum, when Merkel sent him back to Westminster cap in hand ….?
The EU doesn’t want to reform, it wants “more Europe” (to quote Macron), more power. To suggest otherwise is delusional.
You can’t reform a political project that inspires religious-type zeal and devotion that is run by technocrats whose very livelihoods and ideologies depend upon its aggrandisement.
“Remain and reform” is no less a fantasy as some of the wilder “Leave” claims (sunlit uplands, buccaneering, seafaring nation etc).
To do that, we need to be fully in AND for a period of time, with demonstrable commitment during times of crisis, that would earn our seat at the top table with France and Germany.
The BBC did a pretty good 3 part-er on our relationship a year or so back. From the financial crash onwards through to the migration issue, the UK plays it’s “close but separate” card and leaves others to do the heavy lifting.
Not saying that’s necessarily right or wrong – Blair/Brown may well have played it differently – but it’s hard to see how we can influence others from the current “Remain” position.
It’s time we went all-in, or found another direction.
Stay in and fxxk it up with Poland/Hungary would have been infinitely preferable to this current imbecility
Who is going to want to reform tax free salaries, subsidised housing and schools, tax free shopping and gold plated pensions with retirement at 55?
I’d have voted for it had it not been so apparent that this was a Herald of Free Enterprise bow doors open job. What exactly can be manufactured in Britain by British owned companies anymore? Outwith the EU the foreign owned former British industry here is highly likely to decamp.
Come January 1 rst…….it is going to be a challenge for you guys to go on holiday to France, Italy, Spain, Austria……or go stag for a naughty week end in Budapest.
A nice little hol in Swansea, or better, Bournemouth…….and how about skiing the fluffy powder of Glenshee ……or as I read….the fluffy plastic runs.
That should be fun.
Next referendum Ed, listen to what your mother tells you to do. Irish mothers know best.
I am not so sure that the Nation State is necessarily the best unit for organising human affairs in he 21st century. The democratic institutions of the EU, though not perfect, are arguably more representative than those of the UK with our peculiar FPTP system.
It’s deeply unfortunate that an intelligent person such as Ed West needed the referendum to realise what would be lost.
All that now remains is for the likes of Farage et al to say “this wasn’t the Brexit that the British people voted for” and the process will be complete. Everyone is unhappy, everyone is poorer and our national Government continues to fail with education, health, housing and immigration.
Guess what, the world isn’t perfect. Leaving the EU isn’t going to give us the fantasy halcyon days that so many Brexiteers imagine existed in the past and we could somehow revive.
To the supposed 52% of the British public who voted for this mess, at least have Ed West’s decency to recognise that you were wrong.
“My Eurosceptism was on a fundamental level about the nation-state, which
I considered (and still do) the best means of organising society.”
But Britain isn’t a ‘Nation State’. It’s a Union of regions (formerly ‘nations’ and a couple of ‘territories) under a single symbolic monarchy. I suspected when I read West’s pusillanimous apologies for leftism in ‘Small men on the Wrong Side…’ that he isn’t really a conservative at all, but a liberal/left-winger who doesn’t actually like his own side.
A Nation has three features 1) Government and legal system coinicide. That is not the case here. 2) The residents are seen as a single ‘ethne’ or ‘people’. That isn’t true here either. Bi-religious Nations are rare (are there any?). France is now officially secular, but no-one believes it’s not a Catholic country.The Netherlands is Protestant. In every multi-relligious Nation the problem is religion. Not the case here yet, but is in Ireland 3) National flags. The Union Jack is not a ‘National’ flag, but an anti-national flag. Are we running out of advantages yet?
No true Scotsman
I think that all of this could have been avoided had we had it in writing that any referendum required at least 65 % in favour for it to be passed. 51% still leaves nearly half thw population feeling they should have won. I am a Scot, and can see that itis possible we may see a repeat of the Brexit referendum up here, with the same divisiveness as we saw in 2014. I say that as a Brexiteer, but not a hard-core dogmatist. The EU did pass some good laws, and I would be quite happy to see continuing support for workers’ rights as well as safeguarding food safety vis-a-vis pesticides, but Bojo the clown doesn’t see it that way, sadly.
The problem then is you allow a majority to be held hostage to the status quo. Perhaps that’s for the best, but it doesn’t feel good to me, to be bound so tightly by the past. The 1975 EEC entry referendum would have cleared that bar, but decisions since then on the EU, Lisbon treaty etc etc haven’t been put to the public, let alone met with that much approval. Slow change gets to sneak through and accumulate, big changes and resets become very hard.
I honestly don’t know what a good answer is here. I’m not pretending to have one 🙂
Sorry but I cannot understand why, in a binary choice vote, one side should be expected to clear a higher hurdle than the other. It seems profoundly undemocratic.
It would be rather like saying a challenger candidate should have to get considerably more votes than the incumbent MP to take the seat.
A vote to remain in 2016 was not a vote to stay in the cosy 2016 iteration of the EU in perpetuity. Any 5 or 10 year forecast was as much of an unknown whether you voted to stay or to leave the EU – an organisation that is constantly changing (though never reforming).
That presupposes that we had a referendum to join in the first place. If their had been a referendum back in 1972 would never have joined. The UK was dragged in by the Establishment against the will of the British people.
Had we been given a vote on the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties as we should have been then Brexit would probably never have happened, but the Establishment knew that the British people would have rejected both Treaties so it was never going to happen.
Also worth remembering that the English Courts, who left no stone untuned in their attempt to frustrate Brexit, were quick to reject an application to hold the then Government to an election pledge to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Apparently, the Courts established that Blair had his fingers crossed when writing the Labour Party Manifesto
1975?
Sold on the basis of a Common Market, not a political union
Apart from the fact that you cannot have a common market without common governing institutions, that doesn’t explain why a referendum in 1972 would have rejected membership.
At the time(75) it was sold entirely on the Common Market basis, any hint of common governing institutions was a no-go area as far as the mainstream politicians went. The British people were pretty unwilling to surrender sovereignty. i remember the debate at the time. As for the 72 expecting the public to leap out of one condition and expect them to embrace another(esp if the agendas were on the table) is an unlikely scenario. Giving a seal of approval to membership(albeit on somewhat false pretences) after the event is a different kettle of fish.
Very good point and one you never hear raised. They should have foreseen the risk of a vote split down the middle. It happened in Canada on the Quebec independence vote. A meaningful majority referendum wouldn’t have left the losing side feeling cheated by democracy. Especially for an irreversible decision like this one.
Well done Ed. You’ve seen the light, 4 years too late. It was always about social antagonism, the desire to stick it to the London snobs. Which was understandable, even if misguided. But you had the chance for a second referendum – a way to check that wafer-thin majority. To throw that away was unforgivable. It’s one thing to shoot yourself in the foot, it’s another to look at the bloody hole and say “I meant to do that”.
The problem is that if you want to stick it to the London snobs, then a second referendum looks like the snobs saying ‘ooh, look at these provincials, they’re so stupid they can’t even put a cross in the right box. Have another go dear’. It was just never going to fly, and only entrenched the divisions.
I guess you’re right. Which tells us, what? By the time that society has fractured into tribes it’s already too late? In hindsight, Farage should have been recognised as the voice of something real. It’s maybe a pity the guys chosen to lead the populists was so odious. They might have listened to a Bernie Sanders.
In fact we did have such a choice – his name was Jeremy Corbyn.
The real problem stemming from the right that Remainers thought they had for a second referendum was that they failed to engage in what the post-Brexit world should look like. Whist obstructing the process at every turn, mocking the British Government and whooping on the EU might have been fun, it was politically juvinile and counter productive. Had they engaged we would now be members of EFTA in in the EEA.
“…..you had the chance for a second referendum….. To throw that away was unforgivable”
Eh? the Remain-leaning UK Parliament had many opportunities to vote for a 2nd referendum. It didn’t take them.
Brexit is a time-machine that has taken us all back to the last point of the inconclusive civil strife of the nineteen eighties.
It must have malfunctioned. They definitely set the dial for 1954.
Yet it’s you who wants to remain (pun intended) in the past.
I’m sorry to use a BTL comment to personally criticise the writer of this piece, but I feel Ed West invites it with his disparaging remarks about insufferable London Oxbridge types (of which I am one). Mr West is one of those middle-class anti-elitists, who is no less affluent or privileged than the “elites” he rails against – just less clever and evidently a lot less informed. Ken Clarke’s dismissal of Ukip members as mainly “elderly male people who’ve had disappointing lives” seems apt – people who have led comfortable lives but have always been shut out of the fast lane – the best universities, the biggest corporations – and are consequently resentful of those within that lane.
Out of that resentment, they have now left all of us poorer, our country weakened, our union fragile, and our economy in permanent decline. They have cut off their own nose to spite everyone else’s face. Ed West’s daughter will be saddled by the costs of Brexit, and the political fallout, until she is well into middle age. If only he had had the humility to listen to people better informed than him – economists, academics, doctors, anyone. If only he had listened to his seven-year-old.
I hadn’t seen that Ken Clarke quote before. I’ve been impressed with him throughout the Brexit debacle. He was a lone voice of common sense on the right. That wasn’t the only voting bloc for Brexit. It spoke to widespread disenfranchisement. But sadly it was always only a negative protest vote, with a handful of poor excuses as rationale.
Nonsense. Two-thirds of the pre-referendum Tory cabinet campaigned and voted for Remain.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten that it was a Tory government that spent £10.4 million of taxpayers money on a pro-EU pamphlet that was pushed through the letterbox of every household in the land, breaking even the EU’s own rules on referendum campaign spending.