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FRA Pride march in London last year. Credit: Getty.
Around the middle of last year, researchers in several countries started noticing something disturbing: despite the fall in Covid deaths everywhere, excess deaths (compared to the pre-pandemic five-year average) were actually rising. Even more worryingly, a disproportionate number of those excess deaths were occurring in young people. This was the opposite of what you would expect in the receding phase of a pandemic — one which had largely spared young people in the first place.
Some researchers sounded the alarm, but were largely ignored by governments, public health authorities and the mainstream media. It was a curious response from those who in the previous two and a half years had justified the complete upending of human societies on the basis of “preserving life”. Throughout the second half of 2022, however, excess deaths have continued to rise at faster rates, and have continued to do so in the first weeks of 2023, to the point that the problem has become impossible to ignore.
The BBC recently reported that more than 650,000 deaths were registered in the UK in 2022 — 9% more than 2019. That’s around 50,000 excess deaths, most of which have been concentrated in the second half of the year (since July, there have been an average of 1,300 additional deaths per week). Excluding the pandemic, this represents the highest excess deaths level in 70 years — and only a fraction of these deaths are attributable to Covid. Figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) show that excess deaths were almost 3,000 higher than normal in the second week of January alone — more than 20% above the average. Covid-19 accounted for just 5% of the total. The week before, overall deaths were 30% higher than expected.
If we break the numbers down by age groups, the results are even more surprising. While excess deaths in most age groups, even if above average, tend to be lower than they were in 2020 and 2021, as you would expect, there is one outlier: people between the age of 0 and 24 registered lower-than-average death rates in 2020 and 2021. Throughout 2022, on the other hand, they have been dying at higher rates than expected. In other words, more young people are dying today in Britain than before, or even during, the pandemic — and we don’t know why.
And yet, despite this stark discrepancy, there has been a notable lack of public acknowledgement of the non-Covid mortality crisis — let alone any meaningful explanation as for what’s driving it. Earlier this month, Health Secretary Steve Barclay told Sky News that “it’s extremely complicated as to what the drive of those excess deaths are”. Meanwhile, health experts say the causes could include anything from ambulance delays, long waits in A&E and major backlogs for routine NHS care to high flu rates and long Covid. Indeed, the consensus seems to hold that the general breakdown of the NHS is largely to blame for the increase in excess deaths.
But there is a hole in this argument: excess deaths are a problem in a number of other high-income countries, where the “NHS is broken” argument doesn’t hold. According to EuroMOMO, a European mortality monitoring activity supported by the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) and the World Health Organization (WHO), many European countries are showing elevated levels of excess mortality in all age groups — around 35% above average — and did so throughout 2022. In fact, despite relatively low Covid death rates, overall excess deaths in all age groups in Europe in 2022 were as high as in 2020 and higher than 2021 — even in the oldest cohorts. Beyond Europe, the situation is much the same: Australia and New Zealand recorded, respectively, 16% and 9% more excess deaths than the historical average in 2022, while in the United States, CDC data shows that the rate of non-Covid excess deaths in the first half of 2022 was even higher than in 2020 or 2021.
In short, a significant number of Western countries are experiencing a surge in excess deaths across all age groups. And there is no single explanation for this. Rather, each country seems to have its own theory — none of which have anything to do with the NHS. In Portugal, December saw excess deaths which beat all records of the previous 13 years, including during Covid-19, which the press attributes to an ageing population, and the resurgence of other respiratory viruses alongside the summer heat waves. In France and Spain, the summer heat waves are also seen as a clear cause of the excess deaths, while in Chile one additional cause of the surge in mortality was seen as “deaths avoided during the pandemic owing to the lower risk of certain events, like traffic accidents or injuries at work”.
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SubscribeIt is the vaccines. Every single thing we have been told about Covid, the mandates and the vaccines has been a lie. 9 year olds don’t have strokes and heart attacks – or at least they didn’t before the vaccines. We are still being told they are safe for pregnant women – they were never tested on pregnant women. The mainstream press are pushing all kinds of nonsense – gardening elevates your risk of heart attacks, etc. Here is a question for you – are they having excess deaths in Africa? In Haiti? In Bangladesh? The other problem is of course that even if there was a genuine reason for this – I simply won’t believe it. I, and millions like me, simply don’t believe the physicians, university professors and other institutional ‘leaders’ anymore. Or the mainstream media. They have no credibility – or power to persuade.
Good post.
The unnecessary deaths caused by the political lies will always be the most disastrous outcome remembered by individuals. But the catastrophic loss of of credibility of governing institutions throughout the West may yet turn out to be the most far-reaching consequence.
I wonder what the next dozen elections in the West will produce. It’s hard to guess, currently. Personally I hope it will be the start of an overthrow of the WEF-based order.
Good article but slightly nutty ranting comments
There are parallels with excess mortality from the post global financial crisis (GFC) data.
When the pandemic started there was clear data on the costs of societal disruption – increased excess mortality in mental health, cardiovascular and cancer deaths post GFC.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/economic-downturn-excess-cancer-deaths-atun/
Although it is not exactly the same as covid, the parallels are manifest:
Loss of employment, insurance, loss of social connectiveness, loss of health screening all equal increased risk of death.
Maybe we should learn from recent history rather than rant.
Would you like to address any of the issues raised by the people you criticise, or just call them names?
The prominence of the ad hominem always gives away the weakness of the position. It also reveals the author to be uninterested in a fair and civil argument – the strategy is that the target (and onlookers harbouring sceptical thoughts) will stay quiet for fear of humiliation and social rejection. These anti-rational techniques have been embraced to devastating effect in the mainstream and its disappointing to see them here on a site that exists largely to try to counteract these toxins. But once all debates have collapsed into name calling, where does that leave a society with real problems to solve? When we resort to schoolyard techniques to sort out our problems, don’t be surprised that our once-enlightened society begins to resemble “Lord of the Flies”.
No.
The problem has not been one of “toxic debate”. There has *been* no “debate” because of totalitarian neo-Marxist propaganda and censorship.
I ddn’t know the Conservative Government was neo-Markist. We now know thanks to Big Brother Watch that his Govenermnt was up to some pretty unscrupulous surveillance during the Pandemic under the 77th Brigade.Not everything can be blamed on left wing politics.
I ddn’t know the Conservative Government was neo-Markist. We now know thanks to Big Brother Watch that his Govenermnt was up to some pretty unscrupulous surveillance during the Pandemic under the 77th Brigade.Not everything can be blamed on left wing politics.
What we have here are a lot of very angry (myself included) people expressing their anger at the whole lying covid-management debacle, and their anger at realizing that the societal institutions can no longer be believed or trusted in. When you have been brought up to trust these institutions—with fairly good reason—and then find they no longer can be believed, it is a bitter pill to swallow. Perhaps contributing to excess deaths.
No.
The problem has not been one of “toxic debate”. There has *been* no “debate” because of totalitarian neo-Marxist propaganda and censorship.
What we have here are a lot of very angry (myself included) people expressing their anger at the whole lying covid-management debacle, and their anger at realizing that the societal institutions can no longer be believed or trusted in. When you have been brought up to trust these institutions—with fairly good reason—and then find they no longer can be believed, it is a bitter pill to swallow. Perhaps contributing to excess deaths.
The prominence of the ad hominem always gives away the weakness of the position. It also reveals the author to be uninterested in a fair and civil argument – the strategy is that the target (and onlookers harbouring sceptical thoughts) will stay quiet for fear of humiliation and social rejection. These anti-rational techniques have been embraced to devastating effect in the mainstream and its disappointing to see them here on a site that exists largely to try to counteract these toxins. But once all debates have collapsed into name calling, where does that leave a society with real problems to solve? When we resort to schoolyard techniques to sort out our problems, don’t be surprised that our once-enlightened society begins to resemble “Lord of the Flies”.
Excellent comment. Expect many downvotes.
A comment only those jabbed and boosted could make or applaud.
That’s because you are wrong and weak
A comment only those jabbed and boosted could make or applaud.
That’s because you are wrong and weak
I think your comparison has some validity in the US. But very little in the UK.
It’s a fair statement, however, if we were asking the hard questions right now people wouldn’t have to “rant” as you suggest. This requires more than ranting at this stage, it requires shouting at the top of your lungs to have an independent investigative body struck that digs in, asks the hard questions, leaves no stone unturned and and does the proper data analysis. This will never happen – all manner of perverse incentives are driving our institutions to the complete opposite side of real science now. We are so far beyond a rant now.
None of this answers the question, why so many deaths in the young? Obesity? 20 pounds (even 50 pounds) overweight in the young would not be significant. Social isolation? They were not behaving like curtain twitching pensioners and carried on seeing their mates. Screening? What healthy 20 and thirty somethings spend time getting health screens?
And the 9 year olds having strokes?
Two obvious problems with drawing this parallel: the excess deaths we are currently experiencing are *much* higher than those following the GFC. And a large proportion of the deaths are sudden cardiovascular issues, not problems arising from the delayed treatment of treatable cancers.
I would also take issue with your description of ‘ranty’ comments: people have been raising concerns about excess deaths for many, many months but have been persistently censored, down-played or ignored – and so have had to shout.
One can only assume Mr Dale is an investor in Big Pharma or directly or indirectly a paid beneficiary of their ‘largesse’.
Yes indeed, the Lockdowns were not only harmful to physical health but the dire economic consequences are playing out now. We all know that one of the biggest factors in higher death rates is poverty which the lockdowns have caused in abundance. Professors and doctors who warned about the harmful consequences of lockdowns in the Great Barrington Declaration were suppressed and ridiculed. See the Twitter files.
Such a naive comment from someone sounding intelligent. This is your issue, you can’t see common sense! If it’s that obvious how can it be ignored. It’s people like you stopping us getting to the crux of the issue.
Would you like to address any of the issues raised by the people you criticise, or just call them names?
Excellent comment. Expect many downvotes.
I think your comparison has some validity in the US. But very little in the UK.
It’s a fair statement, however, if we were asking the hard questions right now people wouldn’t have to “rant” as you suggest. This requires more than ranting at this stage, it requires shouting at the top of your lungs to have an independent investigative body struck that digs in, asks the hard questions, leaves no stone unturned and and does the proper data analysis. This will never happen – all manner of perverse incentives are driving our institutions to the complete opposite side of real science now. We are so far beyond a rant now.
None of this answers the question, why so many deaths in the young? Obesity? 20 pounds (even 50 pounds) overweight in the young would not be significant. Social isolation? They were not behaving like curtain twitching pensioners and carried on seeing their mates. Screening? What healthy 20 and thirty somethings spend time getting health screens?
And the 9 year olds having strokes?
Two obvious problems with drawing this parallel: the excess deaths we are currently experiencing are *much* higher than those following the GFC. And a large proportion of the deaths are sudden cardiovascular issues, not problems arising from the delayed treatment of treatable cancers.
I would also take issue with your description of ‘ranty’ comments: people have been raising concerns about excess deaths for many, many months but have been persistently censored, down-played or ignored – and so have had to shout.
One can only assume Mr Dale is an investor in Big Pharma or directly or indirectly a paid beneficiary of their ‘largesse’.
Yes indeed, the Lockdowns were not only harmful to physical health but the dire economic consequences are playing out now. We all know that one of the biggest factors in higher death rates is poverty which the lockdowns have caused in abundance. Professors and doctors who warned about the harmful consequences of lockdowns in the Great Barrington Declaration were suppressed and ridiculed. See the Twitter files.
Such a naive comment from someone sounding intelligent. This is your issue, you can’t see common sense! If it’s that obvious how can it be ignored. It’s people like you stopping us getting to the crux of the issue.
Given that the article gives several plausible candidates for excess mortality what makes you so sure that it’s solely the vaccines?
My feeling is that for many who vehemently opposed the lockdowns they want it to be the vaccines because that would give them a weapon with which to punish the those inflicted the Covid restrictions on them.
I can understand this. Personally I feel like I was robbed of two years of my life, time we will not get back, by the lockdowns but this doesn’t mean we should throw reason out the window and adopt a kind of monomania with regards to the vaccines.
We know the vaccines can cause myocarditis but we also haven’t seen an associated increase in death rates from those diagnosed with vaccine induced heart problems, nor has a mechanism for how they would go on to cause death been identified. Given that studies find much higher rates of myocarditis in Covid patients, if there was an increased death rate due long term damage to the heart, how could it be distinguished that this was due to the vaccine and not Covid?
I still feel that the most likely explanation will be a combination of a wide number of factors: Lack of health care during the pandemic, later diagnosis, social isolation worsening health conditions or increasing deaths of despair, increased waiting lists due to backlogs in the health care system, potential immune naivety from certain viruses not been encountered for the last two years, rebounds in accidents from high risk behaviour which were suppressed by lockdown, the possibility that a disproportionate number of the very vulnerable were highly sheltered by the lockdown and now their mortality rates are returning to normal.
When faced with this Gordian knot of potential causes, the temptation might be to say, it’s all down to the vaccines, and cut it but expedient answers rarely are the correct ones.
“My feeling is that for many who vehemently opposed the lockdowns they want it to be the vaccines because that would give them a weapon with which to punish the those inflicted the Covid restrictions on them.”
Surely such people would blame the lockdowns, if that’s what they opposed? I can speak as one myself: I opposed the lockdowns on the grounds of their potential human cost, and it looks as if I was right. Why would I need to blame the vaccines, even if I also believe that the vaccines may well have had serious side-effects outweighing their benefits for certain groups?
Whatever combination of vaccines, lockdowns, or any of the other interventions or their economic consequences it might be, it’s clear that political and other authorities across the world and in the UK threw a generation of young people and children under the bus in a desperate, blind moral panic to protect, or be seen to be protecting, the elderly and the “vulnerable”.
Why don’t they try and find the humility and courage to try and learn lessons from this catastrophe, instead of burying their heads in the sand or trying to find someone else to blame? Truth and reconciliation is desperately needed.
Well said. But they will not. They cannot for fear of criminal sanction . Everyone in authority is complicit in the NHS First catastrophe. Everyone. But our media/BBC – to its eternal shame a guilty lead propagandist party in inducing public hysteria – will protect themselves, all the craven political parties and the authoritarian health Industrial complex with censorship and lies. And our supposed protector – the law – remain silent and unused. Human rights?? Yeh right. Magna Carta did ut better. It is like living under communism. They speak one false truth after another. Covid. Net Zero. Climate Emergency. Equality mania. We know it is a State ideology and riddled with lies. But we cannot remove the unelected technocracy which holds the levers of real power. So are are mute frustrated disempowered. And they get away with it.
Because the Blob doesn’t do humility and courage, or truth or reconciliation.
Well said. But they will not. They cannot for fear of criminal sanction . Everyone in authority is complicit in the NHS First catastrophe. Everyone. But our media/BBC – to its eternal shame a guilty lead propagandist party in inducing public hysteria – will protect themselves, all the craven political parties and the authoritarian health Industrial complex with censorship and lies. And our supposed protector – the law – remain silent and unused. Human rights?? Yeh right. Magna Carta did ut better. It is like living under communism. They speak one false truth after another. Covid. Net Zero. Climate Emergency. Equality mania. We know it is a State ideology and riddled with lies. But we cannot remove the unelected technocracy which holds the levers of real power. So are are mute frustrated disempowered. And they get away with it.
Because the Blob doesn’t do humility and courage, or truth or reconciliation.
Because it was always known on some level, even if the if governments failed to quantify it, that lockdown would cause harms. However, it could be argued that lockdown was to protect the most vulnerable therefore can be justified as an act of solidarity, whether you agree with that or not.
The vaccines, whilst they reduced the rates of deaths and serious illness failed in the end to prevent transmission, meaning that the mass vaccination of the under 50’s has no such justification. If it was to emerge that as well turning out to have been unnecessary, they also caused harm, this would be far more damaging for authorities. That’s why I think vaccines are the preferred target.
I am far more outraged about the pointless loss of my freedom – and I had it pretty easy – than a vaccination programme which actually was not coerced in the UK.
If you wanted to keep your job as the wage-earners in thousands of family had to do, you were coerced into having a vax.
Andrew this is inaccurate. There were many way in which the uptake was enforced. I could not travel to help my elderly father who was unwell and in need of urgent care as he lives – now lived – in another country if I did not take it. I have thus been coerced. Many would have lost their jobs.
As a person over 70 I had 2 emails 3texts and 2 phone calls trying to get me to be vaccinated. As a former biology teacher/lecturer I was aware that having contracted Covid (very mildly) before the vax was released I would have natural immunity. I was thrown out of my choir, my discussion group and slurred as an “anti-vaxxer” by many. Had I been less secure in my knowledge of immunology (and less bolshie) I would have submitted. 150,000 health care workers (mostly working class women)were sacked for refusing the vaccine (probably most had already got natural immunity from infection) and it was only when highly paid consultants in the NHS refused that the mandate was removed. One reason for the bed-blocking in hospitals at the moment……..
All this is coercion-not as bad as the USA (most congressmen have shares in Big Pharma) but coercion nonetheless.
I would never have submitted. Two reasons spring to mind:
A ‘safe and effective’ vaccine that the manufacturers insisted on being held unaccountable for.
No long-term effects of multiple mRNA jabs are known. Nor will be for some years yet. I thought I’d be fit enough to survive covid (true as it turned out) but didn’t think embracing an unknown was in my own interest.
I suppose a third (rather more latterly) would be the unfathomable drive to inject all those over 6 months of age, some of whom were at almost zero risk from covid.
“unfathomable drive”? As per the best advice in the history of journalism – follow the money. There’s no money in natural immunity.
“unfathomable drive”? As per the best advice in the history of journalism – follow the money. There’s no money in natural immunity.
All health workers are equal. It’s just that the consultants are much more equal than others. What did those consultants know that made them reluctant to get jabbed?
I would never have submitted. Two reasons spring to mind:
A ‘safe and effective’ vaccine that the manufacturers insisted on being held unaccountable for.
No long-term effects of multiple mRNA jabs are known. Nor will be for some years yet. I thought I’d be fit enough to survive covid (true as it turned out) but didn’t think embracing an unknown was in my own interest.
I suppose a third (rather more latterly) would be the unfathomable drive to inject all those over 6 months of age, some of whom were at almost zero risk from covid.
All health workers are equal. It’s just that the consultants are much more equal than others. What did those consultants know that made them reluctant to get jabbed?
There was coercion. If you wanted to preserve your freedom to travel, for example, you had to give into the coercion to get jabbed and show the certificate on demand.
I agree about the pointless loss of freedom. But as for: “… vaccination programme which actually was not coerced in the UK”. I did not get the vaccine and was not actually coerced in the sense of being forced to march to a vaccination centre. But I was certainly conscious of continual pressure from all sides. At the top, it was the repulsive Boris urging us to get jabbed. And the late Queen describing vaccine refusers as selfish. And the BBC ‘s ceaseless propaganda. At local level, it was the near horror from family and friends that I was unjabbed.
If you wanted to keep your job as the wage-earners in thousands of family had to do, you were coerced into having a vax.
Andrew this is inaccurate. There were many way in which the uptake was enforced. I could not travel to help my elderly father who was unwell and in need of urgent care as he lives – now lived – in another country if I did not take it. I have thus been coerced. Many would have lost their jobs.
As a person over 70 I had 2 emails 3texts and 2 phone calls trying to get me to be vaccinated. As a former biology teacher/lecturer I was aware that having contracted Covid (very mildly) before the vax was released I would have natural immunity. I was thrown out of my choir, my discussion group and slurred as an “anti-vaxxer” by many. Had I been less secure in my knowledge of immunology (and less bolshie) I would have submitted. 150,000 health care workers (mostly working class women)were sacked for refusing the vaccine (probably most had already got natural immunity from infection) and it was only when highly paid consultants in the NHS refused that the mandate was removed. One reason for the bed-blocking in hospitals at the moment……..
All this is coercion-not as bad as the USA (most congressmen have shares in Big Pharma) but coercion nonetheless.
There was coercion. If you wanted to preserve your freedom to travel, for example, you had to give into the coercion to get jabbed and show the certificate on demand.
I agree about the pointless loss of freedom. But as for: “… vaccination programme which actually was not coerced in the UK”. I did not get the vaccine and was not actually coerced in the sense of being forced to march to a vaccination centre. But I was certainly conscious of continual pressure from all sides. At the top, it was the repulsive Boris urging us to get jabbed. And the late Queen describing vaccine refusers as selfish. And the BBC ‘s ceaseless propaganda. At local level, it was the near horror from family and friends that I was unjabbed.
“The vaccines, whilst they reduced the rates of deaths and serious illness”
The evidence says otherwise, but don’t let that trouble you.
Since they managed to kick all those elderly patients out of hospital (untested) and back to their care homes, the argument for protecting the most vulnerable looks rather weak. It would have been kinder to shoot the ‘bed blockers’.
Add to that all the weak and vulnerable elderly who were locked up to die alone and unvisited.
I am far more outraged about the pointless loss of my freedom – and I had it pretty easy – than a vaccination programme which actually was not coerced in the UK.
“The vaccines, whilst they reduced the rates of deaths and serious illness”
The evidence says otherwise, but don’t let that trouble you.
Since they managed to kick all those elderly patients out of hospital (untested) and back to their care homes, the argument for protecting the most vulnerable looks rather weak. It would have been kinder to shoot the ‘bed blockers’.
Add to that all the weak and vulnerable elderly who were locked up to die alone and unvisited.
Speak for me, too. Sums up my position as well.
Aside from the creeping totalitarianism, I’ve not said much of anything regards to the vaccines.
I opposed both the lockdowns and the vaccines. Even if the vaccines were perfect the lockdowns were completely overdone especially for children. They achieved nothing in the end and people who tried to say so were suppressed on social media and in the press. For 2 years we were told that no sacrifice was too high if we could save just one 83 year old life. The drumbeat of alarm was beaten relentlessly. But suddenly there is a glaring lack of interest in excess deaths – including the very young. The media doesn’t talk about it at all. When young people literally stroke out live on TV – the response is a shrug. “Hey $@&$ happens – chill out.”
I remember the totally deranged comment from a guy interviewed on BBC radio in 2020. He declared that no price was too high to save one life from COVID… “a trillion pounds….” Which is about seven years expenditure on the whole of the NHS.
Which reminds me of the often repeated comment that the NHS is the nearest thing to a national religion in the UK. In our local Waterstones a few days ago, there was the history of 70 years of the NHS. It was in the religious books section between the Synod of 1559 and C S Lewis.
I remember the totally deranged comment from a guy interviewed on BBC radio in 2020. He declared that no price was too high to save one life from COVID… “a trillion pounds….” Which is about seven years expenditure on the whole of the NHS.
Which reminds me of the often repeated comment that the NHS is the nearest thing to a national religion in the UK. In our local Waterstones a few days ago, there was the history of 70 years of the NHS. It was in the religious books section between the Synod of 1559 and C S Lewis.
Too many people in my eyes aren’t able to do as you say unfortunately, they’re far too tribal. They didn’t like lockdowns (which I didn’t) therefore everything that was done in regards to Covid must have been wrong. We see the same in politics, where they believe everything one side says is right and the opposition always wrong when most of us know that’s nonsense
Everything that was done in regards to Covid *was* wrong.
But some people are just too cowardly to form an evidence-based opinion. They’d rather believe the garbage fed to them by the BBC and corrupt politicians.
Everything that was done in regards to Covid *was* wrong.
But some people are just too cowardly to form an evidence-based opinion. They’d rather believe the garbage fed to them by the BBC and corrupt politicians.
Whatever combination of vaccines, lockdowns, or any of the other interventions or their economic consequences it might be, it’s clear that political and other authorities across the world and in the UK threw a generation of young people and children under the bus in a desperate, blind moral panic to protect, or be seen to be protecting, the elderly and the “vulnerable”.
Why don’t they try and find the humility and courage to try and learn lessons from this catastrophe, instead of burying their heads in the sand or trying to find someone else to blame? Truth and reconciliation is desperately needed.
Because it was always known on some level, even if the if governments failed to quantify it, that lockdown would cause harms. However, it could be argued that lockdown was to protect the most vulnerable therefore can be justified as an act of solidarity, whether you agree with that or not.
The vaccines, whilst they reduced the rates of deaths and serious illness failed in the end to prevent transmission, meaning that the mass vaccination of the under 50’s has no such justification. If it was to emerge that as well turning out to have been unnecessary, they also caused harm, this would be far more damaging for authorities. That’s why I think vaccines are the preferred target.
Speak for me, too. Sums up my position as well.
Aside from the creeping totalitarianism, I’ve not said much of anything regards to the vaccines.
I opposed both the lockdowns and the vaccines. Even if the vaccines were perfect the lockdowns were completely overdone especially for children. They achieved nothing in the end and people who tried to say so were suppressed on social media and in the press. For 2 years we were told that no sacrifice was too high if we could save just one 83 year old life. The drumbeat of alarm was beaten relentlessly. But suddenly there is a glaring lack of interest in excess deaths – including the very young. The media doesn’t talk about it at all. When young people literally stroke out live on TV – the response is a shrug. “Hey $@&$ happens – chill out.”
Too many people in my eyes aren’t able to do as you say unfortunately, they’re far too tribal. They didn’t like lockdowns (which I didn’t) therefore everything that was done in regards to Covid must have been wrong. We see the same in politics, where they believe everything one side says is right and the opposition always wrong when most of us know that’s nonsense
Just to correct you somewhat. (a) In young men age 18-50 the frequency of myocarditis post-vaccination vastly surpasses that post-covid. (b) from a purely biological perspective, covid, in the vast majority of cases, is not a systemic disease but limited to the respiratory tract so the spike protein does not circulate in the blood; in the case of vaccination, the spike protein (synthesized within cells from the mRNA or DNA for the AZ vaccine) circulates throughout the body and is found in virtually every organ. That’s a completely different situation.
As for the causes of excess deaths one has to look at the age group and demographic where you don’t expect people to die of cardiovascular disease. i.e. very few people less than 50 are going to be on statins, for example, so Whitty’s argument/proposal is just idiotic (Not to mention that statins have absolutely no effect on mortality for those who haven’t yet experienced a cardiovascular event, except in very rare cases of inherited hyperlipidemias.
The virus has also been shown to cause myocarditis, so seeing as almost the entire population would have had at least one of the strains by now woukd that not also explain the rise rather than just the vaccines?
Yes indeed, but only in very rare cases does a covid infection result in myocarditis. That’s because the infection has to systemic and general it isn’t. For the vaccine, it is always given systemically.
Totally correct, but that doesn’t fit with the conspiracy.
Nope! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9025013/
Nope. Why no excess deaths in Africa and India where the vast majority of the population got Covid and herd immunity eventually kicked in?
Yes indeed, but only in very rare cases does a covid infection result in myocarditis. That’s because the infection has to systemic and general it isn’t. For the vaccine, it is always given systemically.
Totally correct, but that doesn’t fit with the conspiracy.
Nope! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9025013/
Nope. Why no excess deaths in Africa and India where the vast majority of the population got Covid and herd immunity eventually kicked in?
Your initial strong assertion isn’t supported by this article:
https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines#:~:text=Myocarditis%20is%20the%20inflammation%20of,keeps%20the%20heart%20pumping%20normally.
Yes but it’s supported by many papers in the literature including the recent studies out of Switzerland and thailand. As Vinay Prassad has pointed out, you cannot just put everybody in the same pot and compare 85 year olds to 18-29 yr olds! probably a good idea to understand the medical literature.
I’m not quite sure what to make of this study.
It compares the incidence of myocarditis in those who had Covid BEFORE receiving the ‘vaccine’ with those who contracted Covid AFTER the shot, reporting a higher incidence of myocarditis in the former.
Surely what is required is simply a comparison of the incidence of myocarditis in the UNVACCINATED with those who have received the ‘vaccine’, either before or after contracting Covid?
All along, I believed the forceful coercion, including the mandates, were a desperate bid to eliminate a most useful control group – the unvaccinated!
We have a control group – Africa!
We dont have a control group in Africa as coronovirus infections (non SARS) are quite common so there may well be a natural cross-over immunisation.
We dont have a control group in Africa as coronovirus infections (non SARS) are quite common so there may well be a natural cross-over immunisation.
We have a control group – Africa!
Yes but it’s supported by many papers in the literature including the recent studies out of Switzerland and thailand. As Vinay Prassad has pointed out, you cannot just put everybody in the same pot and compare 85 year olds to 18-29 yr olds! probably a good idea to understand the medical literature.
I’m not quite sure what to make of this study.
It compares the incidence of myocarditis in those who had Covid BEFORE receiving the ‘vaccine’ with those who contracted Covid AFTER the shot, reporting a higher incidence of myocarditis in the former.
Surely what is required is simply a comparison of the incidence of myocarditis in the UNVACCINATED with those who have received the ‘vaccine’, either before or after contracting Covid?
All along, I believed the forceful coercion, including the mandates, were a desperate bid to eliminate a most useful control group – the unvaccinated!
“Next slide, please”.
The virus has also been shown to cause myocarditis, so seeing as almost the entire population would have had at least one of the strains by now woukd that not also explain the rise rather than just the vaccines?
Your initial strong assertion isn’t supported by this article:
https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines#:~:text=Myocarditis%20is%20the%20inflammation%20of,keeps%20the%20heart%20pumping%20normally.
“Next slide, please”.
Obviously when faced with problems arising in complex systems, we grasp at simplistic solutions. The answer is unlikely to be simple – inconvenient as that may be for our need to understand. The problem the authors identify is a serious one – the vaccines have been prematurely ruled out as a cause of anything by our governments without anything near a sufficient level of study. And they are actively silencing and shaming anyone who wants to do those studies. The conspiracy theorizing around vaccines will only start to subside when the actual conspiracy to silence all criticism of the vaccines subsides.
You mean simplistic solutions like the contention that the entire global temperature is controlled by one variable – man made CO2? I can guarantee you that most people who believe fervently in vaccines – believe that simplistic story as well. I guess I am old fashioned and tend to believe in things that I have witnessed – like my child being vaccine injured – like the fact I don’t know anyone who has died from Covid who wasn’t old and sick – like the fact that I have had Covid three times despite being vaccinated. We have reached a certain intellectual nihilism where we literally don’t know who to believe anymore. I am as interested in hearing what a crackpot handing out flyers on a street corner has to say these days as I am in hearing what the head of the CDC is saying. They are both about equal in credibility – except one of them hasn’t already intentionally lied to the public to my knowledge.
Sometimes simple solutions are actually correct! We’ve known CO2 is a greenhouse gas for 150 years, (it’s why Venus is so much hotter than it ‘should’ be at its distance from the Sun), we know we are producing more and more of this gas, and we know world temperatures are rising. That doesn’t prove the case but makes a pretty strong ‘case to answer’. I’m rather mystified as to how anyone who has for example visited the Alps or any other mountain area with glaciers couldn’t be aware of the warning tendency. No one is saying that world climate is ‘controlled by one variable’, just that the one that has changed the most quickly happens to be man-made emissions of CO2.
None of that of course means that the world is going to end, humanity will become extinct or that current Net Zero policies are sensible (almost certainly not in my view). Bjorn Lomborg has a very balanced view
Clown. You’re seriously comparing the Earth’s atmosphere to Venus?
https://johnsullivan.substack.com/p/the-dummies-guide-to-uk-net-zero
Don’t be discouraged by the downvotes! The science is there, I was teaching about “global warming “ from 1968 onwards but the fat controllers wouldn’t listen and didn’t act soon enough. Always follow the money!
Sorry the Science isn’t there. There’s a lot more to it than CO2, not to mention that the effect of CO2 saturates rather quickly. Interestingly, a recent study published in one of the Nature Journals noted that the temperature in the alps was much much higher in the middle ages than it is now (based on tree line level, bison grazing, etc…).
Sorry the Science isn’t there. There’s a lot more to it than CO2, not to mention that the effect of CO2 saturates rather quickly. Interestingly, a recent study published in one of the Nature Journals noted that the temperature in the alps was much much higher in the middle ages than it is now (based on tree line level, bison grazing, etc…).
Clown. You’re seriously comparing the Earth’s atmosphere to Venus?
https://johnsullivan.substack.com/p/the-dummies-guide-to-uk-net-zero
Don’t be discouraged by the downvotes! The science is there, I was teaching about “global warming “ from 1968 onwards but the fat controllers wouldn’t listen and didn’t act soon enough. Always follow the money!
Sometimes simple solutions are actually correct! We’ve known CO2 is a greenhouse gas for 150 years, (it’s why Venus is so much hotter than it ‘should’ be at its distance from the Sun), we know we are producing more and more of this gas, and we know world temperatures are rising. That doesn’t prove the case but makes a pretty strong ‘case to answer’. I’m rather mystified as to how anyone who has for example visited the Alps or any other mountain area with glaciers couldn’t be aware of the warning tendency. No one is saying that world climate is ‘controlled by one variable’, just that the one that has changed the most quickly happens to be man-made emissions of CO2.
None of that of course means that the world is going to end, humanity will become extinct or that current Net Zero policies are sensible (almost certainly not in my view). Bjorn Lomborg has a very balanced view
You mean simplistic solutions like the contention that the entire global temperature is controlled by one variable – man made CO2? I can guarantee you that most people who believe fervently in vaccines – believe that simplistic story as well. I guess I am old fashioned and tend to believe in things that I have witnessed – like my child being vaccine injured – like the fact I don’t know anyone who has died from Covid who wasn’t old and sick – like the fact that I have had Covid three times despite being vaccinated. We have reached a certain intellectual nihilism where we literally don’t know who to believe anymore. I am as interested in hearing what a crackpot handing out flyers on a street corner has to say these days as I am in hearing what the head of the CDC is saying. They are both about equal in credibility – except one of them hasn’t already intentionally lied to the public to my knowledge.
The few studies I’ve seen seem to show that the vaccines increase the risk of myocarditis by an extra 10 people per million. By contrast catching Covid appears to show an increase of myocarditis by around 40 people per million.
Maybe you actually need to read more carefully. The best studies and data out of Israel, Thailand and Switzerland all indicate a rate of overt myocarditis in 18-29 yr old men of between 1 in 2000 to 1 in 10000, with a risk of sub-clinical myocarditis pegged at 1-2 orders of magnitude higher. You’ve got to read the literature a little more carefully and actually understand what you’re reading. You cannot lump 85 yr old women with 18-29 yr old men. That’s garbage science.
Maybe you actually need to read more carefully. The best studies and data out of Israel, Thailand and Switzerland all indicate a rate of overt myocarditis in 18-29 yr old men of between 1 in 2000 to 1 in 10000, with a risk of sub-clinical myocarditis pegged at 1-2 orders of magnitude higher. You’ve got to read the literature a little more carefully and actually understand what you’re reading. You cannot lump 85 yr old women with 18-29 yr old men. That’s garbage science.
Thanks for your measured comments Matthew, but those who ‘vehemently oppose lockdowns’ might be better placed to directly blame lockdowns!
I am personally far more outraged at having my liberty removed for no good reason – and I had it pretty easy – than a vaccination programme, though I tend to agree that was probably directed at far too great an age range (Denmark now doesn’t recommend vaccination below the age of 50).
Ostrich.
The most important point is to get your fact right. It is absolutely not the case that the rate of myocarditis following covid is greater than that following vaccination. You have to look at the appropriate age group and you cannot mix up 80 yr old ladies with 18-30 yr old young men. The risk of myocarditis in your men between the ages of 15-50 post-vaccination is real and very well established now (and varies anywhere from 1 in 1000 to 1 in 5000 depending on the study). The risk of sub-clinical myocarditis is 10-100 fold higher in young men. This was found both in the studies out of Switzerland and Thailand.
The second key point is not to throw out straw men arguments. Death in the less than 30s, other than by car/motorbike accidents, is just very very rare. For sure, young people can die from sudden arrythmias but this is super super rare.
“My feeling is that for many who vehemently opposed the lockdowns they want it to be the vaccines because that would give them a weapon with which to punish the those inflicted the Covid restrictions on them.”
Surely such people would blame the lockdowns, if that’s what they opposed? I can speak as one myself: I opposed the lockdowns on the grounds of their potential human cost, and it looks as if I was right. Why would I need to blame the vaccines, even if I also believe that the vaccines may well have had serious side-effects outweighing their benefits for certain groups?
Just to correct you somewhat. (a) In young men age 18-50 the frequency of myocarditis post-vaccination vastly surpasses that post-covid. (b) from a purely biological perspective, covid, in the vast majority of cases, is not a systemic disease but limited to the respiratory tract so the spike protein does not circulate in the blood; in the case of vaccination, the spike protein (synthesized within cells from the mRNA or DNA for the AZ vaccine) circulates throughout the body and is found in virtually every organ. That’s a completely different situation.
As for the causes of excess deaths one has to look at the age group and demographic where you don’t expect people to die of cardiovascular disease. i.e. very few people less than 50 are going to be on statins, for example, so Whitty’s argument/proposal is just idiotic (Not to mention that statins have absolutely no effect on mortality for those who haven’t yet experienced a cardiovascular event, except in very rare cases of inherited hyperlipidemias.
Obviously when faced with problems arising in complex systems, we grasp at simplistic solutions. The answer is unlikely to be simple – inconvenient as that may be for our need to understand. The problem the authors identify is a serious one – the vaccines have been prematurely ruled out as a cause of anything by our governments without anything near a sufficient level of study. And they are actively silencing and shaming anyone who wants to do those studies. The conspiracy theorizing around vaccines will only start to subside when the actual conspiracy to silence all criticism of the vaccines subsides.
The few studies I’ve seen seem to show that the vaccines increase the risk of myocarditis by an extra 10 people per million. By contrast catching Covid appears to show an increase of myocarditis by around 40 people per million.
Thanks for your measured comments Matthew, but those who ‘vehemently oppose lockdowns’ might be better placed to directly blame lockdowns!
I am personally far more outraged at having my liberty removed for no good reason – and I had it pretty easy – than a vaccination programme, though I tend to agree that was probably directed at far too great an age range (Denmark now doesn’t recommend vaccination below the age of 50).
Ostrich.
The most important point is to get your fact right. It is absolutely not the case that the rate of myocarditis following covid is greater than that following vaccination. You have to look at the appropriate age group and you cannot mix up 80 yr old ladies with 18-30 yr old young men. The risk of myocarditis in your men between the ages of 15-50 post-vaccination is real and very well established now (and varies anywhere from 1 in 1000 to 1 in 5000 depending on the study). The risk of sub-clinical myocarditis is 10-100 fold higher in young men. This was found both in the studies out of Switzerland and Thailand.
The second key point is not to throw out straw men arguments. Death in the less than 30s, other than by car/motorbike accidents, is just very very rare. For sure, young people can die from sudden arrythmias but this is super super rare.
Folks seem so certain it’s the vaccine yet there is no evidence. Maybe it’s just ingrained bias?
You’re right, there’s no evidence.
At least, not if you squeeze your eyes tight shut and stick your fingers in your ears.
Maybe you should read the article again
Maybe you should read the article again
You’re right, there’s no evidence.
At least, not if you squeeze your eyes tight shut and stick your fingers in your ears.
At 72 years of age not taking the COVID vax and not buying into the governments masks,social distancing,lock downs,forced inoculations and all the other BS they were peddling at the time was the wisest choice I eve made in my life.I’m in excellent health and feel as good as when I was 40.I have been to far to many funerals of people younger than me by decades who have dropped dead for no good reason and most of them were fully vaxed and boosted! I’ll never trust our government ever again for as long as I live because if you do so its at your own peril.
You see, I find this hard to believe personally. I’m a few decades younger than yourself and presumably know a lot more people of that age group than a retired man would through friends, work and coming from a large family, and yet the only person in that age group that I know who has died in the last few years did so because of a car crash. It seems rather convenient that you know lots of vaxxed young people who have died unexpectedly when it just so happens to prove the point you’re trying to make about the vaccines.
You see, I find this hard to believe personally. I’m a few decades younger than yourself and presumably know a lot more people of that age group than a retired man would through friends, work and coming from a large family, and yet the only person in that age group that I know who has died in the last few years did so because of a car crash. It seems rather convenient that you know lots of vaxxed young people who have died unexpectedly when it just so happens to prove the point you’re trying to make about the vaccines.
I’m not quite sure why you are so outraged about vaccinations but don’t even mention the imprisonment of the population in own own homes for months on end. I’m actually far more outraged about that, and it is very likely to have adverse medical effects.
Please stop this misinformation and baseless conspiracy theories! Follow the science!
Its a well known fact, that the “vaccines” give 100% (!!) IMMUNITY!
That is, it gives legal immunity to the producers, so no risk (for them) AT ALL!
A totally safe product!
The data on age adjusted mortality rates for never vaxed and at least one vax are available from the ONS. The main graph (which shows all-cause mortality among the never vaxed was higher than than the vaxed over 2021 and 2022) and a list of the and the ways that data can be misued by anti-vaxers are at https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1549170827354062849
The latter part of this article is an odd mix of links to papers and conspiracist websites, and would be better with those sites removed. Google “HART leaks” if you want a laugh, but otherwise ignore Fenton, Yeadon and the rest.
In Africa, we had very little vaccine and minimal lockdown. Where it was tried, it was shambolic. There has been no mention or discussion of excess deaths.
For Herd (funded by a Tory supporting millionaire) to survive it has to pander to Covid-Vaccine sceptic commentators who often make unsubstantiated assertions. If interested read this very carefully with an open mind: ‘Covid-19: Study provides further evidence that mRNA vaccines are safe in pregnancy’
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj.o2013
Just read that article and it has to be the stupidest commentary ever on an article in the Lancet aimed at showing that the vaccine is safe in pregnancy.For heaven sake, even ibuprofen or a glass of wine isn’t safe in pregnancy and should be avoided. Moreover, since the vaccine currently fails to prevent infection or transmission, one might very well ask why subject oneself to double the risk: the risk from the vaccine and the risk if one catches covid.
The truth of the matter is that during pregnancy you want to avoid taking any type of medication if at all possible. Of course, that may not be possible, but one should always proceed with great caution, especially during the 1st trimester.
Just read that article and it has to be the stupidest commentary ever on an article in the Lancet aimed at showing that the vaccine is safe in pregnancy.For heaven sake, even ibuprofen or a glass of wine isn’t safe in pregnancy and should be avoided. Moreover, since the vaccine currently fails to prevent infection or transmission, one might very well ask why subject oneself to double the risk: the risk from the vaccine and the risk if one catches covid.
The truth of the matter is that during pregnancy you want to avoid taking any type of medication if at all possible. Of course, that may not be possible, but one should always proceed with great caution, especially during the 1st trimester.
Good post.
The unnecessary deaths caused by the political lies will always be the most disastrous outcome remembered by individuals. But the catastrophic loss of of credibility of governing institutions throughout the West may yet turn out to be the most far-reaching consequence.
I wonder what the next dozen elections in the West will produce. It’s hard to guess, currently. Personally I hope it will be the start of an overthrow of the WEF-based order.
Good article but slightly nutty ranting comments
There are parallels with excess mortality from the post global financial crisis (GFC) data.
When the pandemic started there was clear data on the costs of societal disruption – increased excess mortality in mental health, cardiovascular and cancer deaths post GFC.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/economic-downturn-excess-cancer-deaths-atun/
Although it is not exactly the same as covid, the parallels are manifest:
Loss of employment, insurance, loss of social connectiveness, loss of health screening all equal increased risk of death.
Maybe we should learn from recent history rather than rant.
Given that the article gives several plausible candidates for excess mortality what makes you so sure that it’s solely the vaccines?
My feeling is that for many who vehemently opposed the lockdowns they want it to be the vaccines because that would give them a weapon with which to punish the those inflicted the Covid restrictions on them.
I can understand this. Personally I feel like I was robbed of two years of my life, time we will not get back, by the lockdowns but this doesn’t mean we should throw reason out the window and adopt a kind of monomania with regards to the vaccines.
We know the vaccines can cause myocarditis but we also haven’t seen an associated increase in death rates from those diagnosed with vaccine induced heart problems, nor has a mechanism for how they would go on to cause death been identified. Given that studies find much higher rates of myocarditis in Covid patients, if there was an increased death rate due long term damage to the heart, how could it be distinguished that this was due to the vaccine and not Covid?
I still feel that the most likely explanation will be a combination of a wide number of factors: Lack of health care during the pandemic, later diagnosis, social isolation worsening health conditions or increasing deaths of despair, increased waiting lists due to backlogs in the health care system, potential immune naivety from certain viruses not been encountered for the last two years, rebounds in accidents from high risk behaviour which were suppressed by lockdown, the possibility that a disproportionate number of the very vulnerable were highly sheltered by the lockdown and now their mortality rates are returning to normal.
When faced with this Gordian knot of potential causes, the temptation might be to say, it’s all down to the vaccines, and cut it but expedient answers rarely are the correct ones.
Folks seem so certain it’s the vaccine yet there is no evidence. Maybe it’s just ingrained bias?
At 72 years of age not taking the COVID vax and not buying into the governments masks,social distancing,lock downs,forced inoculations and all the other BS they were peddling at the time was the wisest choice I eve made in my life.I’m in excellent health and feel as good as when I was 40.I have been to far to many funerals of people younger than me by decades who have dropped dead for no good reason and most of them were fully vaxed and boosted! I’ll never trust our government ever again for as long as I live because if you do so its at your own peril.
I’m not quite sure why you are so outraged about vaccinations but don’t even mention the imprisonment of the population in own own homes for months on end. I’m actually far more outraged about that, and it is very likely to have adverse medical effects.
Please stop this misinformation and baseless conspiracy theories! Follow the science!
Its a well known fact, that the “vaccines” give 100% (!!) IMMUNITY!
That is, it gives legal immunity to the producers, so no risk (for them) AT ALL!
A totally safe product!
The data on age adjusted mortality rates for never vaxed and at least one vax are available from the ONS. The main graph (which shows all-cause mortality among the never vaxed was higher than than the vaxed over 2021 and 2022) and a list of the and the ways that data can be misued by anti-vaxers are at https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1549170827354062849
The latter part of this article is an odd mix of links to papers and conspiracist websites, and would be better with those sites removed. Google “HART leaks” if you want a laugh, but otherwise ignore Fenton, Yeadon and the rest.
In Africa, we had very little vaccine and minimal lockdown. Where it was tried, it was shambolic. There has been no mention or discussion of excess deaths.
For Herd (funded by a Tory supporting millionaire) to survive it has to pander to Covid-Vaccine sceptic commentators who often make unsubstantiated assertions. If interested read this very carefully with an open mind: ‘Covid-19: Study provides further evidence that mRNA vaccines are safe in pregnancy’
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj.o2013
It is the vaccines. Every single thing we have been told about Covid, the mandates and the vaccines has been a lie. 9 year olds don’t have strokes and heart attacks – or at least they didn’t before the vaccines. We are still being told they are safe for pregnant women – they were never tested on pregnant women. The mainstream press are pushing all kinds of nonsense – gardening elevates your risk of heart attacks, etc. Here is a question for you – are they having excess deaths in Africa? In Haiti? In Bangladesh? The other problem is of course that even if there was a genuine reason for this – I simply won’t believe it. I, and millions like me, simply don’t believe the physicians, university professors and other institutional ‘leaders’ anymore. Or the mainstream media. They have no credibility – or power to persuade.
I was supportive at the start of the first lockdown and the first vaccines. But I think that everything that happened after that was both wrong, and unforgivable.
The problem was that our political class along with others in the West did not dare to consider changing course. A “sunk cost – bet the farm” mentality took over and cowardice prevented any questioning of it. That is the “wrong” part.
Meanwhile governments harnessed every resource at their disposal (along with some that should not have been at their disposal) to terrorise the populations into belief, while they bankrupted whole countries as their “easier softer route” rather than being honest and rigorously questioning their advisors, the evidence, and their own actions. That is the “unforgivable” part.
It really is unforgivable, and authorities should remain unforgiven until they apologise fulsomely, wholly and personally, to their populations for the weakness, dishonesty and cowardice that they have shown, and the countless thousands or millions of deaths they have deliberately caused..
We’ll, that’s not going to happen. I agree with you though.
At one time the opposition opposed and different points of view were voiced in parliament but there is little difference now between the political parties and no politician wants to take a controversial stance which could be exploited by the press,causing aggro. Too fatiguing!
As a result, we have lost the benefits of being a democracy. Freedom of speech is curtailed and decisions are taken through the strength and publicity given to all sorts of pressure groups( which only have minority followings.
It is a sorry state of affairs and we are lucky to have Unherd where different viewpoints can be aired. Unfortunately they don’t reach the mainstream media.
Expecting a few brave people to speak out was our wish but that was rare. When did nearly all our leaders become so sensitive? Perhaps because we wouldn’t proclaim “Let them speak”. Too many of us allowed the press to attack. We accepted cancelling and mocking attacks. OTOH, our governments have become quite skilled at using PsyOp tools that we are ill trained to deal with. Our press needs to identify and call out the use of those tools so we might learn.
Expecting a few brave people to speak out was our wish but that was rare. When did nearly all our leaders become so sensitive? Perhaps because we wouldn’t proclaim “Let them speak”. Too many of us allowed the press to attack. We accepted cancelling and mocking attacks. OTOH, our governments have become quite skilled at using PsyOp tools that we are ill trained to deal with. Our press needs to identify and call out the use of those tools so we might learn.
Deliberately caused? Baffling, this seems to be the ranting of a drunk in the street.
I have not known one person who has died from Covid. What I have personally experienced in my community, three suicides, multiple overdoses, failed marriages, financial ruin, anxious and overwrought kids and teens, future potential decimated. I could go on and on. I feel fortunate that Covid took no one I know, but do I turn a blind eye to all the rest that was a direct consequence of our response and hence deliberate? And after all this, we still have no leads on where Covid came from? The person who doesn’t think something is seriously amiss here is not only drunk but willfully blind.
You truly believe the government murdered thousands of people? Ok.
The government went ahead with a course of action involving lies deception and propagandising of the population knowing perfectly well from its own advisors that lives would be lost as a result of their actions.
So yes – deliberately killing…
The government went ahead with a course of action involving lies deception and propagandising of the population knowing perfectly well from its own advisors that lives would be lost as a result of their actions.
So yes – deliberately killing…
You truly believe the government murdered thousands of people? Ok.
I have not known one person who has died from Covid. What I have personally experienced in my community, three suicides, multiple overdoses, failed marriages, financial ruin, anxious and overwrought kids and teens, future potential decimated. I could go on and on. I feel fortunate that Covid took no one I know, but do I turn a blind eye to all the rest that was a direct consequence of our response and hence deliberate? And after all this, we still have no leads on where Covid came from? The person who doesn’t think something is seriously amiss here is not only drunk but willfully blind.
Cowardice, above all, is what made this unfolding tragedy possible. Some medical experts, infected by the sensationalism of a looming pandemic, spun their doomsday scenarios to the media, drowning out more reasoned voices from the scientific realm. Any support for the concept of herd immunity became a dangerous place for both the experts, and more importantly, for politicians. They opted for Safetyism as the best route to avoid career damaging cries of “blood on your hands” from the media. Then, looking for kudos as they slid into the role of saviours, championed the cause of finding a vaccine to make the whole horror show go away. In pursuit of a fawning, hero-worshipping public, government oversight was waived to push an untested vaccine upon them, with the now unfolding tragedy a result.
Cowardice again, will preempt any official acknowledgement or atonement for bad decisions and governance.
We’ll, that’s not going to happen. I agree with you though.
At one time the opposition opposed and different points of view were voiced in parliament but there is little difference now between the political parties and no politician wants to take a controversial stance which could be exploited by the press,causing aggro. Too fatiguing!
As a result, we have lost the benefits of being a democracy. Freedom of speech is curtailed and decisions are taken through the strength and publicity given to all sorts of pressure groups( which only have minority followings.
It is a sorry state of affairs and we are lucky to have Unherd where different viewpoints can be aired. Unfortunately they don’t reach the mainstream media.
Deliberately caused? Baffling, this seems to be the ranting of a drunk in the street.
Cowardice, above all, is what made this unfolding tragedy possible. Some medical experts, infected by the sensationalism of a looming pandemic, spun their doomsday scenarios to the media, drowning out more reasoned voices from the scientific realm. Any support for the concept of herd immunity became a dangerous place for both the experts, and more importantly, for politicians. They opted for Safetyism as the best route to avoid career damaging cries of “blood on your hands” from the media. Then, looking for kudos as they slid into the role of saviours, championed the cause of finding a vaccine to make the whole horror show go away. In pursuit of a fawning, hero-worshipping public, government oversight was waived to push an untested vaccine upon them, with the now unfolding tragedy a result.
Cowardice again, will preempt any official acknowledgement or atonement for bad decisions and governance.
I was supportive at the start of the first lockdown and the first vaccines. But I think that everything that happened after that was both wrong, and unforgivable.
The problem was that our political class along with others in the West did not dare to consider changing course. A “sunk cost – bet the farm” mentality took over and cowardice prevented any questioning of it. That is the “wrong” part.
Meanwhile governments harnessed every resource at their disposal (along with some that should not have been at their disposal) to terrorise the populations into belief, while they bankrupted whole countries as their “easier softer route” rather than being honest and rigorously questioning their advisors, the evidence, and their own actions. That is the “unforgivable” part.
It really is unforgivable, and authorities should remain unforgiven until they apologise fulsomely, wholly and personally, to their populations for the weakness, dishonesty and cowardice that they have shown, and the countless thousands or millions of deaths they have deliberately caused..
Hahahaa – these guys are beginning ‘THE GREAT BACKPEDALING’ they were so involved in the agenda which to any sane person was obviously 100% deceit, lies, corruption, betrayal – but now the evidence is overwhelming and so they begin the great Non-Mia Culpa. The great excuse that they pushed this horror because they thought it the right thing; they were told it was the right thing, the Nuremberg excuse……
The – ‘Yes, we have destroyed the global economy and education and health, and freedom, and education, and mental health, and pensions, and will cause Famines which will kill hundreds of millions with the economic Armageddon they created, and made the old die alone with strangers in space suits ignoring them’ – ‘But we meant well’, they will say. ‘They told us to do this‘ they will say…..
”a disproportionate number of those excess deaths were occurring in young people. This was the opposite of what you would expect in the receding phase of a pandemic —”
I knew the truth, I 100% expected this. I refused the Vax, refused the mask although it took great nerve and effort – I did it to make a statement – as I do with words here.
You people injected alien Genetic Material into yourself with NO trials. Well, some short ones which showed the vax was much more harmful than the covid – but hushed that bit up. But NO Long Trials! None! The vax (this is widely said – dr Malone et al) – the mRNA vax was developed as part of a Bio-Weapon system, and you put it in you!
The Nuremberg Trials made ‘Informed Consent’ a Human Right. NO ONE WAS ‘INFORMED’ on risks – this is a violation of Human Rights. Many were coerced – ALL were Lied to.
”Under the Nuremberg Code, responsibility for violations of informed consent rests upon individual doctors, government officials – and their aiders and abettors – each of who can be prosecuted for crimes against humanity. ‘‘
The guilty must get Justice as must the innocent harmed.
I must congratulate you on your persistent and vociferous opposition to this simply appalling scandal.
Under many ‘persona’, you have relentlessly exposed this nonsense from Day 1 (if not before!). Bravo!
A bit more forceful than I’d say but ultimately I don’t disagree.
I said at the start of this that there would be huge costs both measurable (resource scarcity, inflation, debt from furlough and bailouts etc) and non measurable (education, mental health and civil liberties etc). Nobody in government would cost it and barely anyone in the media would question them about it.
We’re now paying the piper and the media are attempting to gas light the sceptics by claiming no one ever thought any of this would happen.
It’s worth pointing out that if one looks at the original Pfizer and Moderna trials of their vaccines, there were in fact slightly more deaths in the vaccinated arm than the control arm! Unfortunately, the end-point for both trials was not hospitalization and death but symptomatic covid (at any level of severity including very very mild cases).
I’ve seen this stated on several occasions and maybe it’s just cognitive dissonance on my part, but how exactly does this happen without some major investigation by the regulatory bodies?
Granted, maybe those deaths were the result of a statistical anomaly with trialists being hit by buses but surely some major oversight would have been triggered?
Surely.
Dream on.
Well unfortunately the regulators are under control of the regulated given that the regulators are paid by the regulators (at least in the case of the FDA but I believe the same is true in the UK) and there is a revolving door between regulators and regulated. On top of that, the people in power had too much invested in the vaccines, especially in the US (think Fauci and Collins) and were so excited by the vaccines at first that they simply could stand back and look objectively at what was really happening. Hard to go back on “safe and effective” when safety had never been demonstrated but more and more serious adverse events were being reported, and the efficacy of the vaccines and boosters were falling very rapidly and in short order.
Indeed – I was being a little rhetorical with that but some part of me just really finds this hard to believe.
However, something that has irritated me a lot during this two year period is how close this is to the 737 Air Max, which highlighted how little separation there was between the manufacturers, airlines and regulators. This has been memory holed quite quickly, but if we’re prepared to have such poor regulation of aviation, why exactly would expect pharmaceuticals to be any different?
Indeed – I was being a little rhetorical with that but some part of me just really finds this hard to believe.
However, something that has irritated me a lot during this two year period is how close this is to the 737 Air Max, which highlighted how little separation there was between the manufacturers, airlines and regulators. This has been memory holed quite quickly, but if we’re prepared to have such poor regulation of aviation, why exactly would expect pharmaceuticals to be any different?
Surely.
Dream on.
Well unfortunately the regulators are under control of the regulated given that the regulators are paid by the regulators (at least in the case of the FDA but I believe the same is true in the UK) and there is a revolving door between regulators and regulated. On top of that, the people in power had too much invested in the vaccines, especially in the US (think Fauci and Collins) and were so excited by the vaccines at first that they simply could stand back and look objectively at what was really happening. Hard to go back on “safe and effective” when safety had never been demonstrated but more and more serious adverse events were being reported, and the efficacy of the vaccines and boosters were falling very rapidly and in short order.
Weren’t both groups vaccinated in the end anyway,so no control group?
I’ve seen this stated on several occasions and maybe it’s just cognitive dissonance on my part, but how exactly does this happen without some major investigation by the regulatory bodies?
Granted, maybe those deaths were the result of a statistical anomaly with trialists being hit by buses but surely some major oversight would have been triggered?
Weren’t both groups vaccinated in the end anyway,so no control group?
And just to rub salt into the wounds the Government have requested Moderna to build a factory here and supply 210 million vaccines. Then suddenly out of the blue they have decided not to give the vaccines to young people. I wonder what changed their minds? Andrew Bridgen perhaps?
You’re possibly too far gone to hear this, but you sound mental (caps, bold, italics). For your own health, spend less time on your Telegram groups reading about how the WEF has a secret plan to kill us all, and more time outside.
I must congratulate you on your persistent and vociferous opposition to this simply appalling scandal.
Under many ‘persona’, you have relentlessly exposed this nonsense from Day 1 (if not before!). Bravo!
A bit more forceful than I’d say but ultimately I don’t disagree.
I said at the start of this that there would be huge costs both measurable (resource scarcity, inflation, debt from furlough and bailouts etc) and non measurable (education, mental health and civil liberties etc). Nobody in government would cost it and barely anyone in the media would question them about it.
We’re now paying the piper and the media are attempting to gas light the sceptics by claiming no one ever thought any of this would happen.
It’s worth pointing out that if one looks at the original Pfizer and Moderna trials of their vaccines, there were in fact slightly more deaths in the vaccinated arm than the control arm! Unfortunately, the end-point for both trials was not hospitalization and death but symptomatic covid (at any level of severity including very very mild cases).
And just to rub salt into the wounds the Government have requested Moderna to build a factory here and supply 210 million vaccines. Then suddenly out of the blue they have decided not to give the vaccines to young people. I wonder what changed their minds? Andrew Bridgen perhaps?
You’re possibly too far gone to hear this, but you sound mental (caps, bold, italics). For your own health, spend less time on your Telegram groups reading about how the WEF has a secret plan to kill us all, and more time outside.
Hahahaa – these guys are beginning ‘THE GREAT BACKPEDALING’ they were so involved in the agenda which to any sane person was obviously 100% deceit, lies, corruption, betrayal – but now the evidence is overwhelming and so they begin the great Non-Mia Culpa. The great excuse that they pushed this horror because they thought it the right thing; they were told it was the right thing, the Nuremberg excuse……
The – ‘Yes, we have destroyed the global economy and education and health, and freedom, and education, and mental health, and pensions, and will cause Famines which will kill hundreds of millions with the economic Armageddon they created, and made the old die alone with strangers in space suits ignoring them’ – ‘But we meant well’, they will say. ‘They told us to do this‘ they will say…..
”a disproportionate number of those excess deaths were occurring in young people. This was the opposite of what you would expect in the receding phase of a pandemic —”
I knew the truth, I 100% expected this. I refused the Vax, refused the mask although it took great nerve and effort – I did it to make a statement – as I do with words here.
You people injected alien Genetic Material into yourself with NO trials. Well, some short ones which showed the vax was much more harmful than the covid – but hushed that bit up. But NO Long Trials! None! The vax (this is widely said – dr Malone et al) – the mRNA vax was developed as part of a Bio-Weapon system, and you put it in you!
The Nuremberg Trials made ‘Informed Consent’ a Human Right. NO ONE WAS ‘INFORMED’ on risks – this is a violation of Human Rights. Many were coerced – ALL were Lied to.
”Under the Nuremberg Code, responsibility for violations of informed consent rests upon individual doctors, government officials – and their aiders and abettors – each of who can be prosecuted for crimes against humanity. ‘‘
The guilty must get Justice as must the innocent harmed.
I usually love being right, but on the matter of me predicting in mid-2020 that the lockdown response to Covid19 would in time be revealed as the worst policy mistake in peacetime history, I can declare that there’s no fun in it at all now that we can see the human cost in the numbers. What’s so infuriating is that I didn’t come up with that idea myself, I read the views of lots of prominent experts in public health, virology, infectious diseases etc and decided what I believed and what I did not believe on that basis, like lots of other people.
My point is that this prediction wasn’t the preserve of some lunatic fringe of extreme attitudes, but was available to anyone in need of expert advice: the government’s own pre-existing pandemic plan was based upon rejectiing lockdown as an effective strategy, for God’s sake.
I just hope that this talk of Covid amnesties is shot down soon, because the truth is that alternatives to the chosen course of action were not merely ignored by decision makers but actively maligned, sidelined and condemned. Nobody involved has any right to expect to get away with this.
The problem is “they” are still not ready for accept that the lockdown was a mistake
‘the government’s own pre-existing pandemic plan was based upon rejecting lockdown as an effective strategy, for God’s sake.’
This is the key point. We just took established plans and consensus and threw it on the fire. That is the core of it – everything followed from there. Why that happened is for conjecture, but perhaps I can make an addition to your good post?
What got me most was the extent of ‘me too.’ As soon as China started and Italy imported lockdowns then everyone else was bounced into it. It was the same with vaccines. Once one government started doing something on vaccines then the pressure was on everyone else to follow. So even if there were plans in place they just got swept away in a grisly mix of media (mainstream and social) hysteria, governments bouncing off each other and whole populations being battered into submission. Initial reports were that the UK was only going to vaccinate the vulnerable – that lasted exactly one 24 hour news channel cycle. I’m actually a bit surprised that social and mainstream media has been mentioned so little in comments on this article.
Don’t get me wrong – it’s not just politicians to blame. Scientists seemed to think that a self publication on Twitter was the gold standard of scientific endeavour and all started bouncing off each other too. There is (or was) a reason scientific debate isn’t played out on a tacky social media company’s service. Journos sat there lapping up the drama and indeed producing it. Several gave the impression they rather liked having the opportunity to control people. We the public sat there collecting furlough cheques as though they were all consequence free.
You are exactly right. None of the pre covid plans were fringe views. They were all there published and those plans were in place for a reason. The failure was unbelievable.
There *were* no sensible “plans” in place. Its a myth.
“Don’t lockdown” is not a plan.
https://johnsullivan.substack.com/p/pandemic-preparedness-in-the-uk
My daughter works for a city council. They had pandemic plans in early 2020. They had to be thrown out because all their careful planning assumed no lockdown.
“Careful planning” lol. Point me at this “plan” and I’ll comment.
In the meantime, read my link and say something *concrete* to add to the discussion, if you can.
“Careful planning” lol. Point me at this “plan” and I’ll comment.
In the meantime, read my link and say something *concrete* to add to the discussion, if you can.
Thanks for this link, John. A fascinating article that I wish I had seen two years ago!
Thank you. Much appreciated.
Thank you. Much appreciated.
My daughter works for a city council. They had pandemic plans in early 2020. They had to be thrown out because all their careful planning assumed no lockdown.
Thanks for this link, John. A fascinating article that I wish I had seen two years ago!
There *were* no sensible “plans” in place. Its a myth.
“Don’t lockdown” is not a plan.
https://johnsullivan.substack.com/p/pandemic-preparedness-in-the-uk
The problem is “they” are still not ready for accept that the lockdown was a mistake
‘the government’s own pre-existing pandemic plan was based upon rejecting lockdown as an effective strategy, for God’s sake.’
This is the key point. We just took established plans and consensus and threw it on the fire. That is the core of it – everything followed from there. Why that happened is for conjecture, but perhaps I can make an addition to your good post?
What got me most was the extent of ‘me too.’ As soon as China started and Italy imported lockdowns then everyone else was bounced into it. It was the same with vaccines. Once one government started doing something on vaccines then the pressure was on everyone else to follow. So even if there were plans in place they just got swept away in a grisly mix of media (mainstream and social) hysteria, governments bouncing off each other and whole populations being battered into submission. Initial reports were that the UK was only going to vaccinate the vulnerable – that lasted exactly one 24 hour news channel cycle. I’m actually a bit surprised that social and mainstream media has been mentioned so little in comments on this article.
Don’t get me wrong – it’s not just politicians to blame. Scientists seemed to think that a self publication on Twitter was the gold standard of scientific endeavour and all started bouncing off each other too. There is (or was) a reason scientific debate isn’t played out on a tacky social media company’s service. Journos sat there lapping up the drama and indeed producing it. Several gave the impression they rather liked having the opportunity to control people. We the public sat there collecting furlough cheques as though they were all consequence free.
You are exactly right. None of the pre covid plans were fringe views. They were all there published and those plans were in place for a reason. The failure was unbelievable.
I usually love being right, but on the matter of me predicting in mid-2020 that the lockdown response to Covid19 would in time be revealed as the worst policy mistake in peacetime history, I can declare that there’s no fun in it at all now that we can see the human cost in the numbers. What’s so infuriating is that I didn’t come up with that idea myself, I read the views of lots of prominent experts in public health, virology, infectious diseases etc and decided what I believed and what I did not believe on that basis, like lots of other people.
My point is that this prediction wasn’t the preserve of some lunatic fringe of extreme attitudes, but was available to anyone in need of expert advice: the government’s own pre-existing pandemic plan was based upon rejectiing lockdown as an effective strategy, for God’s sake.
I just hope that this talk of Covid amnesties is shot down soon, because the truth is that alternatives to the chosen course of action were not merely ignored by decision makers but actively maligned, sidelined and condemned. Nobody involved has any right to expect to get away with this.
Note the first post in this column, which essentially posits that virtually any observed phenomenon or statistic is a previously unknown symptom or consequence of covid.
Ever heard of Occam’s razor?
There is SO MUCH posturing and intellectual contortions going on, so let’s try something much simpler; what established medical research indicated that submitting people to years of fear, stress, arbitrary confinement and lack of social interaction WOULD NOT cause serious long-term consequences in and of themselves?
What established medical research suggested that a total disruption of treatment for a range of well-known medical problems, from cancer to TB tabloid pressure, WOULD NOT cause severe long-term consequences?
What established medical research indicated that tried and tested protocols for drug testing could be discarded or ignored?
Not hard, is it?
What experimental medical research when tested on humans WOULD NOT cause serious long-term consequences in and of themselves?
What experimental medical research that led to a total disruption of the natural immune system WOULD NOT cause severe long-term consequences?
What established medical research indicated that tried and tested protocols for drug testing could be discarded or ignored?
Not hard, is it?
What experimental medical research when tested on humans WOULD NOT cause serious long-term consequences in and of themselves?
What experimental medical research that led to a total disruption of the natural immune system WOULD NOT cause severe long-term consequences?
What established medical research indicated that tried and tested protocols for drug testing could be discarded or ignored?
Not hard, is it?
Note the first post in this column, which essentially posits that virtually any observed phenomenon or statistic is a previously unknown symptom or consequence of covid.
Ever heard of Occam’s razor?
There is SO MUCH posturing and intellectual contortions going on, so let’s try something much simpler; what established medical research indicated that submitting people to years of fear, stress, arbitrary confinement and lack of social interaction WOULD NOT cause serious long-term consequences in and of themselves?
What established medical research suggested that a total disruption of treatment for a range of well-known medical problems, from cancer to TB tabloid pressure, WOULD NOT cause severe long-term consequences?
What established medical research indicated that tried and tested protocols for drug testing could be discarded or ignored?
Not hard, is it?
The question of the impact of the vaccines could be answered by a study comparing the excess deaths among the vaccinated and unvaccinated (controlling for other variables such as age).
The fact that there seems no appetite to make this data available, or to undertake such a study, suggests to me that there is a strong suspicion among those in power that the vaccines are a contributory factor. But it’s an answer that would be too politically damaging, as well as damaging to trust in health professionals. So they will try to ensure it is never definitively answered.
And the cover up will end up doing more to erode trust than anything else.
The question of the impact of the vaccines could be answered by a study comparing the excess deaths among the vaccinated and unvaccinated (controlling for other variables such as age).
The fact that there seems no appetite to make this data available, or to undertake such a study, suggests to me that there is a strong suspicion among those in power that the vaccines are a contributory factor. But it’s an answer that would be too politically damaging, as well as damaging to trust in health professionals. So they will try to ensure it is never definitively answered.
And the cover up will end up doing more to erode trust than anything else.
Also the vaccine was meant to stay at the injection site -it didn’t. Unlike traditional vaccines there was no dosing factor – everyone got the same amount. It was not meant to cross the blood -brain barrier but the vaccine has a phospholipid coating and is attracted to organs which have a large concentration of fats eg brain and ovaries (hence rise in menstrual problems).
See Dr John Campbell, Dr Mobeen Syed, Dr Drew and a multiple of other front line doctors and cardiologists who have spoken out and been cancelled.
Also the vaccine was meant to stay at the injection site -it didn’t. Unlike traditional vaccines there was no dosing factor – everyone got the same amount. It was not meant to cross the blood -brain barrier but the vaccine has a phospholipid coating and is attracted to organs which have a large concentration of fats eg brain and ovaries (hence rise in menstrual problems).
See Dr John Campbell, Dr Mobeen Syed, Dr Drew and a multiple of other front line doctors and cardiologists who have spoken out and been cancelled.
By the way I was at the Truth be Told rally (vaccine bereaved and injured – that includes me)outside the BBC last Saturday. Not reported on the MSM anywhere.
By the way I was at the Truth be Told rally (vaccine bereaved and injured – that includes me)outside the BBC last Saturday. Not reported on the MSM anywhere.
Uk has limited the vax!!!!! Dr John Campbell – https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sidjKoHS6NE
He also has covered excess deaths:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ku2Fv7xnL1o
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=av4Ej6om0WI
Pfizer press release:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aSzar6T3zJw
Hats off to Dr Campbell.
YouTuber misinterprets Covid-19 vaccine evidence on children from Singapore – Full Fact
Come on if we’re going to include links, include them all. His poor science has been debunked. Now if folks are going to be lazy, see something on YouTube (the modern bloke down the pub says it’s true) and not think ‘well I’ll read round a bit more before I come to my own conclusion’ we are going to be played repeatedly.
Yeah I’ve just watched three videos and made my mind up. Obviously.
Heres a couple of medical journal type articles.
Quote:
The vaccine was associated with an excess risk of myocarditis (1 to 5 events per 100,000 persons). The risk of this potentially serious adverse event and of many other serious adverse events was substantially increased after SARS-CoV-2 infection.
Source:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2110475
Quote:
We found increased risks of myocarditis associated with the first dose of ChAdOx1 and BNT162b2 vaccines and the first and second doses of the mRNA-1273 vaccine over the 1–28 days postvaccination period, and after a SARS-CoV-2 positive test
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0
Short lunch break. Would you like more later?
Also John Campbell is a hero.
The first quote you’ve included states that whilst vaccinations can cause myocarditis, Covid also causes it and other serious complications, at a substantially higher rate, though it does not specify the numbers.
This is an argument against your position.
With regards to why the UK and other countries are now limiting the vaccine. It’s expensive and eats up health care capacity vaccinating large numbers.
The first rollout attempted to see if the vaccine could eliminate Covid from the population, either through a permanent or a sufficiently long suppression of transmission. As it turned out, transmission was not suppressed for long enough for the elimination of Covid from the population. This being the case, vaccines are now being distributed on the same risk assessment criteria as all other vaccines, i.e. only to those who see the largest risk reduction under the cost benefit analysis.
I don’t think so… You need to re read I think, please do correct me if I’m wrong though.
From the same article:
The effect of vaccination on the various potential adverse events included in this study is presented in Table 2. The risk was substantially higher on either the multiplicative (risk ratio) or additive (risk difference) scales in the vaccinated group than in the unvaccinated group for myocarditis (risk ratio, 3.24; 95% confidence interval [CI
Believe that refers to the increased risk of myocarditis compared to the unvaccinated population who don’t have Covid. Which is correct, an unvaccinated individual has a lower chance of myocarditis than one that’s just been vaccinated so we can confirm the vaccine can cause myocarditis.
However, as others have commented, the risk of getting myocarditis from Covid whilst being unvaccinated is significantly higher, maybe four times as much. Since this rate is decreased by vaccination, the lowest risk rate for a vulnerable group will be to take the vaccine, since the increased risk of harm from the vaccine is more than outweighed by the decreased risk from the ameliorating effects of the vaccine.
There may be groups, particularly amongst the young, whose risk of complications from covid is lower than the side effects of the vaccine. In those cases it’s right that they shouldn’t have the vaccine. However I’m still yet to see a study which has linked vaccine induced myocarditis to an increased mortality rate.
OK but Watson questioned the fact I had just posted you tube links. John Campbell does discuss those differences between age groups you talk about. He does not link myocarditis specifically to increased mortality you are quite right. But I think it’s fair to say those reports back up the fact that myocarditis caused by covid vaccines in SOME age groups MAY have contributed. I think it is fair to use them to back up the idea that John Campbell is not completely off his trolley. That was my main intention. If you post sources people can read them and interpret them as they will. I’m not really trying to tell you what to think, just share information.
OK but Watson questioned the fact I had just posted you tube links. John Campbell does discuss those differences between age groups you talk about. He does not link myocarditis specifically to increased mortality you are quite right. But I think it’s fair to say those reports back up the fact that myocarditis caused by covid vaccines in SOME age groups MAY have contributed. I think it is fair to use them to back up the idea that John Campbell is not completely off his trolley. That was my main intention. If you post sources people can read them and interpret them as they will. I’m not really trying to tell you what to think, just share information.
Believe that refers to the increased risk of myocarditis compared to the unvaccinated population who don’t have Covid. Which is correct, an unvaccinated individual has a lower chance of myocarditis than one that’s just been vaccinated so we can confirm the vaccine can cause myocarditis.
However, as others have commented, the risk of getting myocarditis from Covid whilst being unvaccinated is significantly higher, maybe four times as much. Since this rate is decreased by vaccination, the lowest risk rate for a vulnerable group will be to take the vaccine, since the increased risk of harm from the vaccine is more than outweighed by the decreased risk from the ameliorating effects of the vaccine.
There may be groups, particularly amongst the young, whose risk of complications from covid is lower than the side effects of the vaccine. In those cases it’s right that they shouldn’t have the vaccine. However I’m still yet to see a study which has linked vaccine induced myocarditis to an increased mortality rate.
I don’t think so… You need to re read I think, please do correct me if I’m wrong though.
From the same article:
The effect of vaccination on the various potential adverse events included in this study is presented in Table 2. The risk was substantially higher on either the multiplicative (risk ratio) or additive (risk difference) scales in the vaccinated group than in the unvaccinated group for myocarditis (risk ratio, 3.24; 95% confidence interval [CI
https://www.phc.ox.ac.uk/news/covid-19-infection-more-likely-than-vaccines-to-cause-rare-cardiovascular-complications
From what I can gather the vaccines increase the rate of myocarditis by around 10 people per million, whereas catching Covid increases it by 40 per million, so even Moderna (which appears to be the most dangerous) is around 4 timer safer than the disease
Fair enough, good source, I would retort your report is dated 16 December 2021.
Dr Campbells videos are covering the latest data. Perhaps would be fair to say we maybe have more data now?
And yet the Government cancelled the “world beating” Astra Zeneca vaccine and are in the process of allowing Moderna to supply millions of vaccines here presumably not based on that Nuffield publication. But lets be clear about this the original Wuhan virus with its unique cleavage site attacked everywhere in the body that had ACE 2 receptor cells whereas Omicron Mk10+? version aims at the upper respiratory tract.
Fair enough, good source, I would retort your report is dated 16 December 2021.
Dr Campbells videos are covering the latest data. Perhaps would be fair to say we maybe have more data now?
And yet the Government cancelled the “world beating” Astra Zeneca vaccine and are in the process of allowing Moderna to supply millions of vaccines here presumably not based on that Nuffield publication. But lets be clear about this the original Wuhan virus with its unique cleavage site attacked everywhere in the body that had ACE 2 receptor cells whereas Omicron Mk10+? version aims at the upper respiratory tract.
The first quote you’ve included states that whilst vaccinations can cause myocarditis, Covid also causes it and other serious complications, at a substantially higher rate, though it does not specify the numbers.
This is an argument against your position.
With regards to why the UK and other countries are now limiting the vaccine. It’s expensive and eats up health care capacity vaccinating large numbers.
The first rollout attempted to see if the vaccine could eliminate Covid from the population, either through a permanent or a sufficiently long suppression of transmission. As it turned out, transmission was not suppressed for long enough for the elimination of Covid from the population. This being the case, vaccines are now being distributed on the same risk assessment criteria as all other vaccines, i.e. only to those who see the largest risk reduction under the cost benefit analysis.
https://www.phc.ox.ac.uk/news/covid-19-infection-more-likely-than-vaccines-to-cause-rare-cardiovascular-complications
From what I can gather the vaccines increase the rate of myocarditis by around 10 people per million, whereas catching Covid increases it by 40 per million, so even Moderna (which appears to be the most dangerous) is around 4 timer safer than the disease
They would not be limiting it if it was safe surely?
Why wouldn’t they limit it? If the financial costs are high then they would restrict it to only the most urgent of cases the same as they do any other healthcare treatment
But then why the hype over every one having to have it before we could lift lockdown! We were told a few weeks ago we at risk of imploding again from another wave from China opening up. But now all of a sudden, none of that matters?
I agree with you that in hindsight there probably wasn’t any need to try and push it onto the amount of the population they did, seeing as it didn’t provide long term protection it should have just been aimed at those most at risk, similar to the flu jab.
Yes, perhaps, I don’t know I’m not qualified to say really, my main personal concern was the trials were cut shorter than usual, and I don’t like that we don’t have a clear answer as to the origin. I’m not against vaccines, we have all had our normal ones, my daughter has had hers, just I felt there were a lot of unknowns with the covid vaccine still, I didn’t like that experts who questioned it didn’t seem to be treated that well. It is very different to conventional vaccines too, so a different kettle of fish. If they are trialled widely and found to be safe, fair enough.
I’ve just read that again. Just to be clear I’m really not saying that, I just believe in freedom of personal choice. I am not qualified to be saying what advice the government should have set. I’m not saying what anyone should or shouldn’t do.
Yes, perhaps, I don’t know I’m not qualified to say really, my main personal concern was the trials were cut shorter than usual, and I don’t like that we don’t have a clear answer as to the origin. I’m not against vaccines, we have all had our normal ones, my daughter has had hers, just I felt there were a lot of unknowns with the covid vaccine still, I didn’t like that experts who questioned it didn’t seem to be treated that well. It is very different to conventional vaccines too, so a different kettle of fish. If they are trialled widely and found to be safe, fair enough.
I’ve just read that again. Just to be clear I’m really not saying that, I just believe in freedom of personal choice. I am not qualified to be saying what advice the government should have set. I’m not saying what anyone should or shouldn’t do.
I agree with you that in hindsight there probably wasn’t any need to try and push it onto the amount of the population they did, seeing as it didn’t provide long term protection it should have just been aimed at those most at risk, similar to the flu jab.
But then why the hype over every one having to have it before we could lift lockdown! We were told a few weeks ago we at risk of imploding again from another wave from China opening up. But now all of a sudden, none of that matters?
Why wouldn’t they limit it? If the financial costs are high then they would restrict it to only the most urgent of cases the same as they do any other healthcare treatment
Totally agree. Why do people believe some old guy in his bedroom? Mind boggling.
John Lorimer Campbell[6] grew up primarily in the Stanwix district of Carlisle.[7] He holds a diploma in nursing from the University of London, a BSc in biology from the Open University, an MSc in health science from the University of Lancaster, and a Ph.D. in nursing from the University of Bolton.[7] He received the Ph.D. for his work on developing methods of teaching via digital media such as online videos.[7]
Sounds well qualified to me. He is just analysing data that has been legitimately collected by the government. You can look it all up yourself. You dont have to believe him if you don’t want to, make what you will of the data.
It seems “some old guy in his bedroom” is able to attract Scientists from around the world including Professor Robert Clancy a professor in Immunology who talks about the dangers of mrna vaccines. The professor is not an anti vaxxer but believes mrna technology should be aimed at individuals with specific diseases and not used as a one size fits all cure.
Why do people believe some old guy in his bedroom? Aside from the unlikely, but possible scenario that he is a brilliant outlier, this is often the reason:
The first step is to determine whether they are a reliable actor, interested mostly in the world…… or if their interest is more in the emotional domain – i.e. psychological survival. To the latter, conspiracy theories can have great emotional/psychological appeal, as they seem to deliver solutions to emotional problems. Specifically, conspiracy theories can supply certainty, in response to overwhelming anxiety (a sure path when one feels lost); prestige, where there are self-esteem problems (‘I possess important information most people do not have) & ability (‘I have the power to reject “experts” and expose hidden cabals’); vindication when one feels besieged (my ‘enemies’ are wrong, morally, scientifically)’; connection when one feels alone; and liberation:, ‘If I imagine my foes are completely malevolent, then I can use any tactic I want. I am righteous’.
John Lorimer Campbell[6] grew up primarily in the Stanwix district of Carlisle.[7] He holds a diploma in nursing from the University of London, a BSc in biology from the Open University, an MSc in health science from the University of Lancaster, and a Ph.D. in nursing from the University of Bolton.[7] He received the Ph.D. for his work on developing methods of teaching via digital media such as online videos.[7]
Sounds well qualified to me. He is just analysing data that has been legitimately collected by the government. You can look it all up yourself. You dont have to believe him if you don’t want to, make what you will of the data.
It seems “some old guy in his bedroom” is able to attract Scientists from around the world including Professor Robert Clancy a professor in Immunology who talks about the dangers of mrna vaccines. The professor is not an anti vaxxer but believes mrna technology should be aimed at individuals with specific diseases and not used as a one size fits all cure.
Why do people believe some old guy in his bedroom? Aside from the unlikely, but possible scenario that he is a brilliant outlier, this is often the reason:
The first step is to determine whether they are a reliable actor, interested mostly in the world…… or if their interest is more in the emotional domain – i.e. psychological survival. To the latter, conspiracy theories can have great emotional/psychological appeal, as they seem to deliver solutions to emotional problems. Specifically, conspiracy theories can supply certainty, in response to overwhelming anxiety (a sure path when one feels lost); prestige, where there are self-esteem problems (‘I possess important information most people do not have) & ability (‘I have the power to reject “experts” and expose hidden cabals’); vindication when one feels besieged (my ‘enemies’ are wrong, morally, scientifically)’; connection when one feels alone; and liberation:, ‘If I imagine my foes are completely malevolent, then I can use any tactic I want. I am righteous’.
Consider if the institutions we fund to guard public health were actually doing their job, there would be no need for Dr Campbell. And here is the thing about him, he started sounding the alarm for this to be called a pandemic in early Jan 2020, well before WHO did. I have watched him daily since he started as I have a strong connection to Asia and was shitting myself that we were being so laissez-fare. He has morphed and evolved as the science has. He has had missteps, invited scrutiny, changes his opinion with new evidence and apologizes when he is wrong. He’s into this for three years. You pulling one study he misrepresented is hardly compelling. His integrity is EXACTLY what is missing now in the world. Your one link aptly demonstrates the mechanism you are deriding other people of here which is not doing the work. Seems you fall into that category.
“His poor science has been debunked”
By whom and where?
Yeah I’ve just watched three videos and made my mind up. Obviously.
Heres a couple of medical journal type articles.
Quote:
The vaccine was associated with an excess risk of myocarditis (1 to 5 events per 100,000 persons). The risk of this potentially serious adverse event and of many other serious adverse events was substantially increased after SARS-CoV-2 infection.
Source:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2110475
Quote:
We found increased risks of myocarditis associated with the first dose of ChAdOx1 and BNT162b2 vaccines and the first and second doses of the mRNA-1273 vaccine over the 1–28 days postvaccination period, and after a SARS-CoV-2 positive test
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0
Short lunch break. Would you like more later?
Also John Campbell is a hero.
They would not be limiting it if it was safe surely?
Totally agree. Why do people believe some old guy in his bedroom? Mind boggling.
Consider if the institutions we fund to guard public health were actually doing their job, there would be no need for Dr Campbell. And here is the thing about him, he started sounding the alarm for this to be called a pandemic in early Jan 2020, well before WHO did. I have watched him daily since he started as I have a strong connection to Asia and was shitting myself that we were being so laissez-fare. He has morphed and evolved as the science has. He has had missteps, invited scrutiny, changes his opinion with new evidence and apologizes when he is wrong. He’s into this for three years. You pulling one study he misrepresented is hardly compelling. His integrity is EXACTLY what is missing now in the world. Your one link aptly demonstrates the mechanism you are deriding other people of here which is not doing the work. Seems you fall into that category.
“His poor science has been debunked”
By whom and where?
His videos have all been debunked. Playing to his biased audience.
All been debunked? All? I think you’re being a little silly.
It is a strange thing how anyone can say that someone is spreading ‘misinformation’ or that their conclusions are ‘debunked’. And thus it must be so. Dr Campbell is indeed an older man recording himself in a bungalow guest room somewhere. However he has the medical knowledge and rational capability to interpret data and this he does calmly, rationally and over the last year more and more incredulously. I have seen his developing surprise and frustration and have found solace in not being the only one utterly disappointed and frankly flabbergasted at the lack of data driven investigation and governance. His complete deception matches mine. He is the first to invite others to speak with him and discuss or counter his findings and to please engage and change his mind but this has not happened. His calm analysis helped me through a time where I was convinced everyone around me had lost their minds. ‘Covid grandpa’ John Campbell is and will always an absolute hero to me and I expect many others.
Can you point us to the official Dr. John Campbell debunking site that refutes everything in his several hundred videos? I’m not talking about the YouTube fact checkers with their illustrious credentials……for god sake find a new target. There are many out there that deserve your scrutiny this one does not.
All been debunked? All? I think you’re being a little silly.
It is a strange thing how anyone can say that someone is spreading ‘misinformation’ or that their conclusions are ‘debunked’. And thus it must be so. Dr Campbell is indeed an older man recording himself in a bungalow guest room somewhere. However he has the medical knowledge and rational capability to interpret data and this he does calmly, rationally and over the last year more and more incredulously. I have seen his developing surprise and frustration and have found solace in not being the only one utterly disappointed and frankly flabbergasted at the lack of data driven investigation and governance. His complete deception matches mine. He is the first to invite others to speak with him and discuss or counter his findings and to please engage and change his mind but this has not happened. His calm analysis helped me through a time where I was convinced everyone around me had lost their minds. ‘Covid grandpa’ John Campbell is and will always an absolute hero to me and I expect many others.
Can you point us to the official Dr. John Campbell debunking site that refutes everything in his several hundred videos? I’m not talking about the YouTube fact checkers with their illustrious credentials……for god sake find a new target. There are many out there that deserve your scrutiny this one does not.
YouTuber misinterprets Covid-19 vaccine evidence on children from Singapore – Full Fact
Come on if we’re going to include links, include them all. His poor science has been debunked. Now if folks are going to be lazy, see something on YouTube (the modern bloke down the pub says it’s true) and not think ‘well I’ll read round a bit more before I come to my own conclusion’ we are going to be played repeatedly.
His videos have all been debunked. Playing to his biased audience.
Uk has limited the vax!!!!! Dr John Campbell – https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sidjKoHS6NE
He also has covered excess deaths:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ku2Fv7xnL1o
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=av4Ej6om0WI
Pfizer press release:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aSzar6T3zJw
Hats off to Dr Campbell.
Analysis of post-Covid impacts is cloudy at best. The data is opaque and difficult to parse due to confounding factors. The vaccine was taken by large numbers of people, so even small and rare side-effects (eg sub 1 in 100,000 events) will show up as hundreds of cases when applied to a population of 40-50 million – and, as with man-bites-dog, rare cases generate more news.
The value of the vaccine then depends strongly on how you weigh risk. Going all-or-nothing is just as unhelpful as the panic-struck you-must-be-vaccinated crowd who banned unvaccinated relatives from family gatherings. It was the best guess at the time, when time was of the essence.
However, we now have time for reflection, and that needs to be done openly, and in detail. Even if the vaccine was the right answer, governments have lost a lot of trust. Too much happened behind closed doors. Too much was compelled, rather than advised. Too many experts were presenting their views as ‘truth’ when really they were making guesses – informed guesses, but still guesses – and opposing voices were closed out.
There is a need for a sea-change in approach to complex information, not least because we’re at the threshold of an AI revolution, when computers will tell us and show us things that seem plausable, but we won’t immediately know if they are true or reliable. How do we become better at weighing up what we are told when there isn’t one right answer? How do we distinguish between being right, or being lucky?
You won’t, because you’re not interested.
All the evidence is there to reach informed conclusions. It’s been there from the earliest days. Just as with the #ClimateScam.
You just don’t want to take responsibility for your own thinking.
If you’ve looked at all the evidence, you can provide the pros and cons from both points of view. For instance, what would you say is the rate of adverse events from the vaccine (with suitable statistical source material behind it)? And how many lives do you think were saved by the vaccine (again with source and numbers please)? Both numbers are needed if you’re aiming for an ‘informed conclusion’.
I’ve looked a load of statistics and academic papers and the ongoing mortality data – very little I see is clear one way or another. This will get clearer with time, but there is a lot of anecdote and oddities floating around but not much in terms of hard well-founded numbers at present.
If you’ve looked at all the evidence, you can provide the pros and cons from both points of view. For instance, what would you say is the rate of adverse events from the vaccine (with suitable statistical source material behind it)? And how many lives do you think were saved by the vaccine (again with source and numbers please)? Both numbers are needed if you’re aiming for an ‘informed conclusion’.
I’ve looked a load of statistics and academic papers and the ongoing mortality data – very little I see is clear one way or another. This will get clearer with time, but there is a lot of anecdote and oddities floating around but not much in terms of hard well-founded numbers at present.
You won’t, because you’re not interested.
All the evidence is there to reach informed conclusions. It’s been there from the earliest days. Just as with the #ClimateScam.
You just don’t want to take responsibility for your own thinking.
Analysis of post-Covid impacts is cloudy at best. The data is opaque and difficult to parse due to confounding factors. The vaccine was taken by large numbers of people, so even small and rare side-effects (eg sub 1 in 100,000 events) will show up as hundreds of cases when applied to a population of 40-50 million – and, as with man-bites-dog, rare cases generate more news.
The value of the vaccine then depends strongly on how you weigh risk. Going all-or-nothing is just as unhelpful as the panic-struck you-must-be-vaccinated crowd who banned unvaccinated relatives from family gatherings. It was the best guess at the time, when time was of the essence.
However, we now have time for reflection, and that needs to be done openly, and in detail. Even if the vaccine was the right answer, governments have lost a lot of trust. Too much happened behind closed doors. Too much was compelled, rather than advised. Too many experts were presenting their views as ‘truth’ when really they were making guesses – informed guesses, but still guesses – and opposing voices were closed out.
There is a need for a sea-change in approach to complex information, not least because we’re at the threshold of an AI revolution, when computers will tell us and show us things that seem plausable, but we won’t immediately know if they are true or reliable. How do we become better at weighing up what we are told when there isn’t one right answer? How do we distinguish between being right, or being lucky?
There has been little explanation of how mRNA vaccines operate.
First the definition of vaccine was changed – so these gene editing procedures were redefined for 2 reasons – firstly the safety checking on gene editing is far more stringent and secondly people would have been far more hesitant.
The mRNA gets our own cells to manufacture spike protein – the very thing that causes covid. The idea is we will manufacture antibodies against this antigen and become immune for a while(although the subtleties of our immune system B cells and T cells are only involved against the virus). However the vaccine has no stop manufacture mechanism. At first they said a few days – now said 60 days BUT that is because they have only checked up to 60 days.
Elder people have a weaker immune system , the vast majority of the rest of us a very efficient one – particularly if it is stress tested in our early years.
There has been little explanation of how mRNA vaccines operate.
First the definition of vaccine was changed – so these gene editing procedures were redefined for 2 reasons – firstly the safety checking on gene editing is far more stringent and secondly people would have been far more hesitant.
The mRNA gets our own cells to manufacture spike protein – the very thing that causes covid. The idea is we will manufacture antibodies against this antigen and become immune for a while(although the subtleties of our immune system B cells and T cells are only involved against the virus). However the vaccine has no stop manufacture mechanism. At first they said a few days – now said 60 days BUT that is because they have only checked up to 60 days.
Elder people have a weaker immune system , the vast majority of the rest of us a very efficient one – particularly if it is stress tested in our early years.
I live in a very social society with many different clubs and activities, taking people out at night and giving a focus to their days. This all changed with the lockdowns.
Habits are easily formed causing resultant isolation.. I looked with horror at the florist’s window the other day and saw ten death notices up – never seen anything like that before.
“Turning one’s face to the wall” does happen! Fanciful, you might think, but this is seen when devoted widows or widowers die within a week or two of their spouse’s death.
This just doesn’t explain the number of young people dying.
This just doesn’t explain the number of young people dying.
I live in a very social society with many different clubs and activities, taking people out at night and giving a focus to their days. This all changed with the lockdowns.
Habits are easily formed causing resultant isolation.. I looked with horror at the florist’s window the other day and saw ten death notices up – never seen anything like that before.
“Turning one’s face to the wall” does happen! Fanciful, you might think, but this is seen when devoted widows or widowers die within a week or two of their spouse’s death.
We must continue to analyse and research the pattern of excess deaths. We cannot learn crucial lessons if we don’t. However it always remains remarkable how quickly some of the commentariat want to short circuit that and assume they know the answers.
Much can depend on what baseline for excess deaths is used by a statistical analysis. ONS uses different to IFoA and changes the conclusion. That said Author is correct an underlying pattern appears trans-national (at least where good stats are kept)
The evidence suggests that covid-19 increases the risk of cardiovascular problems even months after infection and could in part be driving excess deaths. Covid-19 itself remains the sixth leading cause of death, causing 200-400 deaths weekly—a reminder that this virus remains a threat for the foreseeable future.
In the UK people may not be receiving the care they need from an NHS that was already overstretched pre-pandemic and is now coping with unprecedented backlogs of care and pressures on emergency services. 10 years ago 60k patients waited 4hrs or more for A&E treatment. It’s now 600k, a 10 fold increase. That is going to make a significant difference. A lack of timely care can be especially life threatening for people with acute cardiovascular problems.
ONS analysis shows about 3300 excess deaths occurred during the heatwaves experienced in mostly in older people. So we are still sifting some ‘particulars’ to the 2022 data.
Further analyses are needed – what’s driving them, and how long they are likely to last. Covid-19 remains threat, esp to those with cardiovascular disease and diabetes. It does feel intuitive that enhanced isolation from Lockdowns will be a factor and Author right to draw attention, and we must learn the lessons for the future. What of course we also lack is the data from China where we could better compare what happens when a different strategy is pursued.
You are totally correct. The world is full of people who pore over statistics and try to propose theories to explain them – they usually call themselves Social Scientists.
However, without all these stats and looking only at the UK…. We know that GPs don’t want to see their patients (like everyone else they want to work from home), we know that universities and medical schools don’t want to force students to be good by applying pressure, we know that A&E waiting times are longer, we know that waiting lists for treatment are getting longer and longer – so we can expect life expectancies to be shorter from now on. So, we are not seeing more excess deaths but a movement of the average itself.
If you use the term excess deaths you tend to look for an easy answer. I suggest that we are merely creating a new norm.
I’d agree with the inappropriate use of “excess deaths” in this situation. It’s rather like the use of the term “poverty” in that it can be manipulated according to whichever statistical model one prefers, and with accompanying emotional loading.
Specific instances cited such as the number of young, fit athletes having cardiac events above the norm should be thoroughly investigated. The idea though, that the number of deaths across entire populations can be attributed to a particular causal factor isn’t going to take us to where we need to be in terms of how to deal with future pandemics.
Nothing will take you where you “need to be in terms of how to deal with future pandemics”.
Nothing will take you where you “need to be in terms of how to deal with future pandemics”.
I’d agree with the inappropriate use of “excess deaths” in this situation. It’s rather like the use of the term “poverty” in that it can be manipulated according to whichever statistical model one prefers, and with accompanying emotional loading.
Specific instances cited such as the number of young, fit athletes having cardiac events above the norm should be thoroughly investigated. The idea though, that the number of deaths across entire populations can be attributed to a particular causal factor isn’t going to take us to where we need to be in terms of how to deal with future pandemics.
“Covid-19 itself remains the sixth leading cause of death”
No, it doesn’t. Your post therefore has no credibility.
You are totally correct. The world is full of people who pore over statistics and try to propose theories to explain them – they usually call themselves Social Scientists.
However, without all these stats and looking only at the UK…. We know that GPs don’t want to see their patients (like everyone else they want to work from home), we know that universities and medical schools don’t want to force students to be good by applying pressure, we know that A&E waiting times are longer, we know that waiting lists for treatment are getting longer and longer – so we can expect life expectancies to be shorter from now on. So, we are not seeing more excess deaths but a movement of the average itself.
If you use the term excess deaths you tend to look for an easy answer. I suggest that we are merely creating a new norm.
“Covid-19 itself remains the sixth leading cause of death”
No, it doesn’t. Your post therefore has no credibility.
We must continue to analyse and research the pattern of excess deaths. We cannot learn crucial lessons if we don’t. However it always remains remarkable how quickly some of the commentariat want to short circuit that and assume they know the answers.
Much can depend on what baseline for excess deaths is used by a statistical analysis. ONS uses different to IFoA and changes the conclusion. That said Author is correct an underlying pattern appears trans-national (at least where good stats are kept)
The evidence suggests that covid-19 increases the risk of cardiovascular problems even months after infection and could in part be driving excess deaths. Covid-19 itself remains the sixth leading cause of death, causing 200-400 deaths weekly—a reminder that this virus remains a threat for the foreseeable future.
In the UK people may not be receiving the care they need from an NHS that was already overstretched pre-pandemic and is now coping with unprecedented backlogs of care and pressures on emergency services. 10 years ago 60k patients waited 4hrs or more for A&E treatment. It’s now 600k, a 10 fold increase. That is going to make a significant difference. A lack of timely care can be especially life threatening for people with acute cardiovascular problems.
ONS analysis shows about 3300 excess deaths occurred during the heatwaves experienced in mostly in older people. So we are still sifting some ‘particulars’ to the 2022 data.
Further analyses are needed – what’s driving them, and how long they are likely to last. Covid-19 remains threat, esp to those with cardiovascular disease and diabetes. It does feel intuitive that enhanced isolation from Lockdowns will be a factor and Author right to draw attention, and we must learn the lessons for the future. What of course we also lack is the data from China where we could better compare what happens when a different strategy is pursued.
The health experts and political leaders who concocted “The Science,” and imposed it as a canon on the public, are too heavily invested in their narratives to backtrack now. And the difficulty of doing so now becomes ever more difficult as the MSM begin -slowly, very slowly – to break ranks on peddling the “correct” Science. Likely, they will continue their repression of alternative facts, and call them out as the rantings of extreme right wing conspiracy theorists, and hope to wait it out until the public are sufficiently distracted by other promoted news stories, such as the Ukraine War, to move on.
Yes, but since the MSM have no idea of “the truth”, they are hardly likely to have a Damascene conversion whereby the entire false narrative suddenly crumbles.
Yes, but since the MSM have no idea of “the truth”, they are hardly likely to have a Damascene conversion whereby the entire false narrative suddenly crumbles.
The health experts and political leaders who concocted “The Science,” and imposed it as a canon on the public, are too heavily invested in their narratives to backtrack now. And the difficulty of doing so now becomes ever more difficult as the MSM begin -slowly, very slowly – to break ranks on peddling the “correct” Science. Likely, they will continue their repression of alternative facts, and call them out as the rantings of extreme right wing conspiracy theorists, and hope to wait it out until the public are sufficiently distracted by other promoted news stories, such as the Ukraine War, to move on.
Given that those who produce and profit by the Vaccines have been total legal IMPUNITY what else would one expect?
This whole farrago couple with the COVID scam is rapidly turning into the greatest confidence trick perpetrated on the human race since the Resurrection.
Fortunately I have been hit by a blast of *COVID-24 and will miss the denouement! (hopefully.)
(* NOT a typo, but tomorrow’s virus. TODAY.)
If you return from the dead, let us know what the future looks like!
‘Wilco’!
Rather sadly I am also going to have miss tonight’s “51st Bloody Sunday Anniversary Dinner”.
‘Wilco’!
Rather sadly I am also going to have miss tonight’s “51st Bloody Sunday Anniversary Dinner”.
You will be able to tell us the truth about the resurrection as well as ell us the future as Steve suggests below!
If you return from the dead, let us know what the future looks like!
You will be able to tell us the truth about the resurrection as well as ell us the future as Steve suggests below!
Given that those who produce and profit by the Vaccines have been total legal IMPUNITY what else would one expect?
This whole farrago couple with the COVID scam is rapidly turning into the greatest confidence trick perpetrated on the human race since the Resurrection.
Fortunately I have been hit by a blast of *COVID-24 and will miss the denouement! (hopefully.)
(* NOT a typo, but tomorrow’s virus. TODAY.)
Vinay Prasad wrote a substack article about the difficulties surrounding excess deaths recently. It’s worth reading. https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/excess-mortality
While I’m a big fan of Vinay Prassad, and indeed have met him, I believe on this one he’s wrong. In my mind the issue is not whether there happen to be excess deaths in the over 80s. There could be any number of reasons for that. What I’m concerned about is excess deaths among the say 30-50 year olds. I’m also concerned about the large number of collapses/cardiac arrests etc in young athletes, especially football/soccer players. For sure these occur rarely, but when they do under normal circumstances it’s a huge deal; they don’t occur on an almost weekly basis. And interestingly, these deaths/cardiac arrest/cardiac events seem to have died down now that the push for boosters has basically flopped and fewer and fewer people are getting boosted.
Very little, if anything, from Vinay Prasad is “worth reading”.
It’s shallow nonsense, based on undeclared assumptions, to increase his profile and his revenue stream.
But you do you.
While I’m a big fan of Vinay Prassad, and indeed have met him, I believe on this one he’s wrong. In my mind the issue is not whether there happen to be excess deaths in the over 80s. There could be any number of reasons for that. What I’m concerned about is excess deaths among the say 30-50 year olds. I’m also concerned about the large number of collapses/cardiac arrests etc in young athletes, especially football/soccer players. For sure these occur rarely, but when they do under normal circumstances it’s a huge deal; they don’t occur on an almost weekly basis. And interestingly, these deaths/cardiac arrest/cardiac events seem to have died down now that the push for boosters has basically flopped and fewer and fewer people are getting boosted.
Very little, if anything, from Vinay Prasad is “worth reading”.
It’s shallow nonsense, based on undeclared assumptions, to increase his profile and his revenue stream.
But you do you.
Vinay Prasad wrote a substack article about the difficulties surrounding excess deaths recently. It’s worth reading. https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/excess-mortality
Given that the authorities in every land were entirely responsible for their Covid response at every level, this disaster will never be exposed.
For “it” to be exposed, someone has to first try. No one is trying – as in, there is no coordinated, funded effort to establish the full facts. Only individuals and small, disparate, poorly funded groups looking mostly at point issues.
For “it” to be exposed, someone has to first try. No one is trying – as in, there is no coordinated, funded effort to establish the full facts. Only individuals and small, disparate, poorly funded groups looking mostly at point issues.
Given that the authorities in every land were entirely responsible for their Covid response at every level, this disaster will never be exposed.
One final thing about mRNA vaccine – which made me go cold when I found out. All mRNA is made up of 4 bases arranged in specific orders. One, uridine, found in all living things , was changed to pseudouridine, in the Pfizer vaccine normally found in some yeasts. I found out by reading a Biontech financial report.
Ithen went on to read the original Wikipedia article on this – this has now been significantly changed.
One final thing about mRNA vaccine – which made me go cold when I found out. All mRNA is made up of 4 bases arranged in specific orders. One, uridine, found in all living things , was changed to pseudouridine, in the Pfizer vaccine normally found in some yeasts. I found out by reading a Biontech financial report.
Ithen went on to read the original Wikipedia article on this – this has now been significantly changed.
I think an important factor is mental health: young people are disproportionately affected by mental illness, especially after the lockdowns, and are less resilient, which limits their ability to recover from the Covid crisis.
Mental illness, such as depression, can lead to suicide but also a variety of physical illnesses, including cardiovascular ones.
Agreed. Wise words.
Agreed. Wise words.
I think an important factor is mental health: young people are disproportionately affected by mental illness, especially after the lockdowns, and are less resilient, which limits their ability to recover from the Covid crisis.
Mental illness, such as depression, can lead to suicide but also a variety of physical illnesses, including cardiovascular ones.
Useful to read “eBook: Find Out What Pfizer, FDA Tried to Conceal” to see what Pfizer data say and what our health officials didn’t analyze well. There was a lot of information in their own data that is troubling. And we are now in a huge experiment to discover what damages the mRNA platform might reveal.
Useful to read “eBook: Find Out What Pfizer, FDA Tried to Conceal” to see what Pfizer data say and what our health officials didn’t analyze well. There was a lot of information in their own data that is troubling. And we are now in a huge experiment to discover what damages the mRNA platform might reveal.
It sounds facetious to say it but I think a lot of people are just dying because they don’t want to live.
It sounds facetious to say it but I think a lot of people are just dying because they don’t want to live.
You might be interested to know that in Western Europe one country has notably less excess mortality than others since 2020, and in fact a deaths deficit in young adults.
Yes, the one that chose not to enforce stay home orders, lockdowns or mask mandates but rely on its citizens sense and discretion.
And, yes, a country that also vaccinated the vast majority of its adults with mRNA.
Yes, Sweden.
You might be interested to know that in Western Europe one country has notably less excess mortality than others since 2020, and in fact a deaths deficit in young adults.
Yes, the one that chose not to enforce stay home orders, lockdowns or mask mandates but rely on its citizens sense and discretion.
And, yes, a country that also vaccinated the vast majority of its adults with mRNA.
Yes, Sweden.
Is there any study or data that looks at excess deaths in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated populations? Is one population higher than another? Genuinely curious. If we are going to attribute recent excess deaths to the vaccine, then it makes sense to observe two populations. I imagine there are enough to take a stab at it.
The difficulty of such a test though would like in recruitment. Do you include unvaccinated folks who never had COVID? Folks who were vaccinated twice and never had COVID? 3 or 4x and no COVID? People infected multiple times? That to me is where it gets extremely difficult to parse out any causal relationship. But I’m open to what’s out there.
Is there any study or data that looks at excess deaths in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated populations? Is one population higher than another? Genuinely curious. If we are going to attribute recent excess deaths to the vaccine, then it makes sense to observe two populations. I imagine there are enough to take a stab at it.
The difficulty of such a test though would like in recruitment. Do you include unvaccinated folks who never had COVID? Folks who were vaccinated twice and never had COVID? 3 or 4x and no COVID? People infected multiple times? That to me is where it gets extremely difficult to parse out any causal relationship. But I’m open to what’s out there.
You don’t have to be be a medical professor to understand data, and the correlation of Covid vaccine rollout to strokes, heart inflammation etc, and even post viral inflammation can occur but not at the rate of what we saw with vaccines. The timelines are so abundantly clear. The fact you have a highly toxic spike protein and a lipid nano particle which is found within the body well after vaccination, without breaking down, highlights some serious issues. I cannot believe this was by accident.
You don’t have to be be a medical professor to understand data, and the correlation of Covid vaccine rollout to strokes, heart inflammation etc, and even post viral inflammation can occur but not at the rate of what we saw with vaccines. The timelines are so abundantly clear. The fact you have a highly toxic spike protein and a lipid nano particle which is found within the body well after vaccination, without breaking down, highlights some serious issues. I cannot believe this was by accident.
Last, but not least. We have a winner.
Last, but not least. We have a winner.
There’s a hole in your argument about the hole in the argument, Thomas.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/08/not-just-nhs-health-services-imploding-europe/
May I ask why your comment on the Peter HITCHENS article been deleted?
May I ask why your comment on the Peter HITCHENS article been deleted?
There’s a hole in your argument about the hole in the argument, Thomas.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/08/not-just-nhs-health-services-imploding-europe/
Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad. They have made us
wokemad and now they are starting to destroy us.Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad. They have made us
wokemad and now they are starting to destroy us.IT’S THE VACCINES STOOPID!!
IT’S THE VACCINES STOOPID!!
Since all the possible causes listed here are a consequence of government policies – all enthusiastically demanded by the legacy media – why are we suprised that neither of these are keen on further investigation
Since all the possible causes listed here are a consequence of government policies – all enthusiastically demanded by the legacy media – why are we suprised that neither of these are keen on further investigation
The elephant in the room is that we pursue a type of medicine that is created by an industry for its financial returns. The problem is that we have all been brought up with it and generally agree modern medicine in amazing (thank you PR departments of the companies). Aseem Malhotra explains this really well by saying that more people in the medical community do not know that they do not know this.
And endlessly discussions will be ongoing, vaccines remain a religion etc, until we remove our narrative from combatting illness (war) to creating health: develop social, economical, agricultural and more so medical policies that pre-occupied with creating health. This is of course not so good for the health-(but in reality illness-) industry as it reduces their client base….
We sadly will need to get rid of a whole stratum of medical leaders who have their head stuck (and economic ties) in this modern view of a ‘health’ service.
The only conclusion we can make is that our modern medical narrative and health service are not being very efficient Non-communicable illness is rising fast, Anti-microbial resistance is becoming an major issue, mental health remains the poor child of medicine, and life expectancy is shortening. Maybe, rather than spend ages sorting out who did what (although I would of course like to see the whole of the political and medial leaders being trialled) we should canvas for a medicine and approach to the word and life from a perspective of creating health…. in stead of looking at illness. It will change the research questions researchers ask (but they will nit find funding from the industry any more) and it will change our approach to medicine…. Allow me to dream
The elephant in the room is that we pursue a type of medicine that is created by an industry for its financial returns. The problem is that we have all been brought up with it and generally agree modern medicine in amazing (thank you PR departments of the companies). Aseem Malhotra explains this really well by saying that more people in the medical community do not know that they do not know this.
And endlessly discussions will be ongoing, vaccines remain a religion etc, until we remove our narrative from combatting illness (war) to creating health: develop social, economical, agricultural and more so medical policies that pre-occupied with creating health. This is of course not so good for the health-(but in reality illness-) industry as it reduces their client base….
We sadly will need to get rid of a whole stratum of medical leaders who have their head stuck (and economic ties) in this modern view of a ‘health’ service.
The only conclusion we can make is that our modern medical narrative and health service are not being very efficient Non-communicable illness is rising fast, Anti-microbial resistance is becoming an major issue, mental health remains the poor child of medicine, and life expectancy is shortening. Maybe, rather than spend ages sorting out who did what (although I would of course like to see the whole of the political and medial leaders being trialled) we should canvas for a medicine and approach to the word and life from a perspective of creating health…. in stead of looking at illness. It will change the research questions researchers ask (but they will nit find funding from the industry any more) and it will change our approach to medicine…. Allow me to dream
“To what extent this correlation actually implies causation does, of course, remain unclear.” Correlation never implies causation.
“To what extent this correlation actually implies causation does, of course, remain unclear.” Correlation never implies causation.
For 10/15 years I have been prone to multiple serious chest infections each year. I had none from late 2019 until late 2022.
Lockdowns/Social distancing protected me not just from Covid but from other infections too – only when I started mixing normally did I pick up an infection – in particular following a short-haul cattle class flight – a repeat of a pattern I had observed in the past, and the reason I take prophylactic antibiotics. I am currently running a low-grade chest infection/productive cough that has lasted 3/4 weeks.
I have had 6 doses of various Covid vaccines.
Many people I know complain of having coughs and colds for the first time since before the pandemic.
Occam’s Razor would suggest the simple mechanism of “incidental protection” followed by a surge of various infections as the most probable cause.
Your Occam’s razor is too Occam. This is a highly, highly complex situation with multiple causes across ages. The excess death question is a combination of many things and includes the vaccine as well as. It’s not solely the vaccine but acting like it’s not contributing is making it seem more than it is.
“I have had 6 doses of various Covid vaccines”
Genius.
“I take prophylactic antibiotics.”
Well that explains a lot…
Your Occam’s razor is too Occam. This is a highly, highly complex situation with multiple causes across ages. The excess death question is a combination of many things and includes the vaccine as well as. It’s not solely the vaccine but acting like it’s not contributing is making it seem more than it is.
“I have had 6 doses of various Covid vaccines”
Genius.
“I take prophylactic antibiotics.”
Well that explains a lot…
For 10/15 years I have been prone to multiple serious chest infections each year. I had none from late 2019 until late 2022.
Lockdowns/Social distancing protected me not just from Covid but from other infections too – only when I started mixing normally did I pick up an infection – in particular following a short-haul cattle class flight – a repeat of a pattern I had observed in the past, and the reason I take prophylactic antibiotics. I am currently running a low-grade chest infection/productive cough that has lasted 3/4 weeks.
I have had 6 doses of various Covid vaccines.
Many people I know complain of having coughs and colds for the first time since before the pandemic.
Occam’s Razor would suggest the simple mechanism of “incidental protection” followed by a surge of various infections as the most probable cause.
Ladies and Gents,
Hitting the thumbs-down button for any comment that is insufficiently negative in re: the vaccination program just doesnt make sense. If we’re looking for an honest discussion of Covid, or any issue, than we must hear the whole story. The fact that we’re really, really angry isn’t a good reason to shut-down our intellects.
By now we’ve all heard more than enough from Fauci, but “Russel Dale” (and “Billy Bob”, too) made some interesting points that we should look into.
Ladies and Gents,
Hitting the thumbs-down button for any comment that is insufficiently negative in re: the vaccination program just doesnt make sense. If we’re looking for an honest discussion of Covid, or any issue, than we must hear the whole story. The fact that we’re really, really angry isn’t a good reason to shut-down our intellects.
By now we’ve all heard more than enough from Fauci, but “Russel Dale” (and “Billy Bob”, too) made some interesting points that we should look into.
It’s been known for a long time that COVID causes large increases in the risk of many health issues. For example from a 2021 study in the BMJ:
“The risk for specific new sequelae attributable to SARS-Cov-2 infection after the acute phase, including chronic respiratory failure, cardiac arrythmia, hypercoagulability, encephalopathy, peripheral neuropathy, amnesia (memory difficulty), diabetes, liver test abnormalities, myocarditis, anxiety, and fatigue, was significantly greater than in the three comparator groups (2020, 2019, and viral lower respiratory tract illness groups) (all P<0.001). Significant risk differences because of SARS-CoV-2 infection ranged from 0.02 to 2.26 per 100 people (all P<0.001), and hazard ratios ranged from 1.24 to 25.65 compared with the 2020 comparator group."
"Conclusions The results indicate the excess risk of developing new clinical sequelae after the acute phase of SARS-CoV-2 infection, including specific types of sequelae less commonly seen in other viral illnesses. Although individuals who were older, had pre-existing conditions, and were admitted to hospital because of covid-19 were at greatest excess risk, younger adults (aged ≤50), those with no pre-existing conditions, or those not admitted to hospital for covid-19 also had an increased risk of developing new clinical sequelae. The greater risk for incident sequelae after the acute phase of SARS-CoV-2 infection is relevant for healthcare planning."
https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1098
Furthermore, vaccination rates in high income countries are strongly negatively correlated with excess deaths both early on and now. See the visualizations at the end of this article:
https://pandem-ic.com/excess-mortality-and-vaccination/
Your post proves only that you understand very little, if anything at all.
Using “studies” to conflate 2020 pandemic data with 2023 Omicron and vaccine risks is just about the most laughable “science” imaginable.
Your post proves only that you understand very little, if anything at all.
Using “studies” to conflate 2020 pandemic data with 2023 Omicron and vaccine risks is just about the most laughable “science” imaginable.
It’s been known for a long time that COVID causes large increases in the risk of many health issues. For example from a 2021 study in the BMJ:
“The risk for specific new sequelae attributable to SARS-Cov-2 infection after the acute phase, including chronic respiratory failure, cardiac arrythmia, hypercoagulability, encephalopathy, peripheral neuropathy, amnesia (memory difficulty), diabetes, liver test abnormalities, myocarditis, anxiety, and fatigue, was significantly greater than in the three comparator groups (2020, 2019, and viral lower respiratory tract illness groups) (all P<0.001). Significant risk differences because of SARS-CoV-2 infection ranged from 0.02 to 2.26 per 100 people (all P<0.001), and hazard ratios ranged from 1.24 to 25.65 compared with the 2020 comparator group."
"Conclusions The results indicate the excess risk of developing new clinical sequelae after the acute phase of SARS-CoV-2 infection, including specific types of sequelae less commonly seen in other viral illnesses. Although individuals who were older, had pre-existing conditions, and were admitted to hospital because of covid-19 were at greatest excess risk, younger adults (aged ≤50), those with no pre-existing conditions, or those not admitted to hospital for covid-19 also had an increased risk of developing new clinical sequelae. The greater risk for incident sequelae after the acute phase of SARS-CoV-2 infection is relevant for healthcare planning."
https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1098
Furthermore, vaccination rates in high income countries are strongly negatively correlated with excess deaths both early on and now. See the visualizations at the end of this article:
https://pandem-ic.com/excess-mortality-and-vaccination/
Fake news! Conspiracy theory. Bring in the fact checkers.
Fake news! Conspiracy theory. Bring in the fact checkers.
Big deal?! The only certainty in life is death, and frankly any afterlife must be better than nu britn?
Big deal?! The only certainty in life is death, and frankly any afterlife must be better than nu britn?