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Is this the end of Israel? Six months on, Jews are starting to lose faith

'I’m not sure what’s left.' (SERGEI GAPON/AFP via Getty Images)

'I’m not sure what’s left.' (SERGEI GAPON/AFP via Getty Images)


April 6, 2024   6 mins

So have we reached the end of the line? Do the latest failures and miscalculations — the relentless assault on the al-Shifa Hospital, the fatal airstrike on aid-workers, the targeting of an Iranian General in Damascus, while Hamas’s hostages languish God knows where — mark a turning point in Israel’s relations with the world? Is this the hour when its most understanding allies call time on the killing and even a fervent believer in Israel’s cause, such as I am, begins to waver?

What are we seeing? Are the terrible scenes from Gaza the projections on a bloody screen of one brutal and clumsy man’s baffled obstinacy — the last days of a demented Roman Emperor — or do they show, as anti-Zionists would have it, indeed as anti-Zionists have had it ever since the Jewish longing to return to Zion gave itself a name and the anti-Zionists called it colonialism, that something is rotten in the soul of Israel?

It’s hard right now, if you are a Jew who has always believed the founding of Israel to have been necessary and in many ways miraculous, to hold your nerve. Jews are a contradictory people, at once certain of themselves and faint-hearted. “The Jewish ability to internalise any critical and condemnatory remark and castigate themselves”, said the Israeli novelist Aharon Appelfeld in an interview with Philip Roth, “is one of the marvels of human nature”. We can outface so much criticism and then no more. Will the gathering storm of rage be too much for us this time? Or will we feel obliged to go on salvaging the truth from the noise and cacophony of war, even as those who don’t want to hear us — the libellous, the malevolent, the misinformed and now the usually friendly who are running out of patience — grow in number and in volume?

Some truths aren’t hard to save from the moral fog that fell on southern Israel six months ago, a six months that have been like no other, collapsing a half year into a seeming sleepless day and night, not simply because shock unravels time, but because along with the horror of the massacre itself came the horror of its delighted reception. King Duncan’s horses were said to have eaten one another the night Macbeth had their master murdered. It was nature’s way of telling us that something unfathomably horrible had happened. The cries of “Kill Jews!” that were heard around the world in the aftermath of the murder of more than 1,000 Jews on October 7 exceeded in unfathomable horror the cannibalism of Duncan’s horses. Did we know that humans could openly rejoice in the rape and murder of people they did not know? Isn’t dancing in the blood of others itself a species of cannibalism?

To borrow from Macbeth again, tears were meant to drown the wind. But all we heard was cheering. The Hamas massacre inverted the norms of pity.

And here is another of the truths we save from that most terrible event. That we do our humanity a great wrong when we let theories of power rule our politics and politics rule our hearts. Nothing that Zionism had done or ever could do would justify this glorying in the torture of individual Israelis. That so many of those doing the glorying were, on the face of it, highly educated put paid to our sentimental faith in education as our final and most reliable bulwark against the hysteria of race-hatred. Voice for voice, the educated out-sang the ignorant in bigotry and bloodlust. As did the highly principled out-sing the more ideologically easy-going when it came to such causes as the inviolability of a woman’s body.

“The educated out-sang the ignorant in bigotry and bloodlust.”

Hadn’t the teaching of the past half-century warned against even tentative intrusion into a woman’s space? Yet here, confronted by the grossest intrusion of them all, rape — brutal rape — the same preachers against the most micro of microaggressions refused to voice even the faintest disapprobation. Some, high up in the world’s great universities, wanted to “contextualise” what had happened. Others, wary of falling into that absurdity, asked for more proof, though had any woman other than an Israeli Jew so much as cried foul, they would have been believed because the prevailing ideology holds that to doubt a rape is to violate a woman a second time.

Let’s not beat about the bush — Israeli-Jew hate trumped all other academic considerations. When all was said and done, the great absolutes of the gender-playbook turned out to be contingent and crawled under the desks of the committed like dormice.

In the long sleepless day and night following the massacre, in which Jews of different nationalities and political persuasions, orthodox and unorthodox, tried to make sense of what had happened, the terrible realisation, that “Never Again” meant nothing, dawned. There would never be a “Never Again”. Those we imagined would be our allies — the informed, the progressive, the liberal — were not progressive when it came to us.

Ironically, it was Israel — our bolthole, the country that gave us the stability of self-worth, our old, all-embracing home — that now felt insecure. With uncanny prescience, Hamas understood that to make Jews feel unsafe in Israel was to weaken them in their own and in others’ eyes. More than ever now, it seemed to me, was it imperative to reaffirm the founding necessity of Zionism. The more empowered the lettered illiterate felt to trash Zionism, the more important was it to wrest the story back from them. A great lie had been allowed to prevail for too long. The lie that Israel had no legitimate rights or ties to the Holy Land. The lie that Zionists had stolen it from defenceless Palestinians. The lie that Zionists had turned up not as refugees from the pogroms of eastern Europe but as colonist-settlers hell-bent on getting every Palestinian out.

“A great lie had been allowed to prevail for too long.”

Is that to say I understand nothing of Palestinian forebodings in those early years as Jews continued to arrive? No. And while I think history bears out good and even utopian intentions on the part of the first Zionists, pioneers who wanted only peace and safety, without doubt there were also those who dealt less than even-handedly with their neighbours. Whether in sufficient quantity to justify Palestinian fears that a takeover was imminent, and that their Holy Places were soon to be over-run, history cannot decide. But, with whatever justification, Palestinians could not let the new arrivals live in peace. There were raids and counter-raids, running battles and massacres. The 1929 massacre by Palestinians of pre-Zionist, scholarly Jews, long resident in Hebron, was not a blueprint for the massacre of nearly 100 years later, but it was, by all official accounts, brutal.

I don’t want to be sentimental about Israel, but it’s enjoyed no peace from the beginning. It is a country that has lived under arms since before its declaration of independence. And on the very day independence was granted it was attacked once more. No, no, and no again. No to Jews. Not here. Not ever. No, no, no.

For Israel to have thrived in the face of a hostility with no end is remarkable. But there can be no denying that the fighting, the conscription of almost all its citizens, the having to live cheek by jowl with a people who cannot and will not accept its presence anywhere “between the river and the sea” has been a toughening, not to say desensitising, experience.

In defence of last year’s massacre, it was argued that it could not be understood independently of the circumstances that led to it. Hamas’s attack, its apologists insisted, was the child of the Israeli occupation. I have always resisted the word “occupation” because it suggests a pre-planned policy, rather than — as I see it — the consequence of all the wars between the two people, most of them instigated by the Palestinians, after which Israel found itself with territory it needed to demilitarise for its own safety. But alright — an occupation it became. After which, what were Palestinians expected to do?

The elusive two-state solution was presented to them several times. Not equitable enough, they said, even when it was the United Nations that had done the divvying up. “Don’t accept,” the cosmopolitan Palestinian writer Edward Said urged from the comfort of his home in North America. “Demand more.” Was he right? Wouldn’t an inequitable divvying up have given Palestinians better if not perfect lives? Well, it’s not for one person to tell another what’s fair. But right or wrong, there was to be no deal.

And so the bloody impasse — a tragedy, as Amos Oz saw it, of two rights. Later, a tragedy of two wrongs. For calling it a tragedy, Oz’s erstwhile Palestinian supporters deserted him. Tragedy meant there was no villain. And the Palestinians needed a villain.

Netanyahu fitted the bill. Netanyahu put his hand out and took. In retaliation for which — though nothing in the history of the two people would ever justify its extreme and twisted violence — the massacre of October 7. But if Israel must take some blame for the massacre, the Palestinians must, by the same token, take some blame for Netanyahu, the lumbering, unsubtle child of unrelenting war, a man hardened in suspicion and fear who does not know the difference between justice and revenge.

To hold out against the Palestinian narrative of dispossession, while allowing that not all of it is fantasy or self-pity, has necessitated, these last few years, more flexibility of mind than dedicated anti-Zionists are willing to try. That’s how we know they are wrong: they do not attempt to understand their enemy and do not cry for him. Did Gazans — educated in their schoolbooks to loathe Jews — dance in the streets on October 7? Whatever the truth, may Israelis never dance the dance of blood.

The heart breaks, seeing the destruction of Gaza. But seeing the destruction of Tel Aviv will hurt no less. Do I fear that? Yes. I sense a change of mood. The constant chanting on the streets of London and elsewhere has, to a degree, contributed to that change. One lie, endlessly retold, can weaken the cause of truth eventually.

But, all on his own, Netanyahu is enough to try the patience of the West whose leaders have little appetite for sticking to a mission. There is a flaw in our natures that leads to our growing bored with even the noblest causes, let alone those grown stale in their own complacency. Oh, what the hell. Enough of them. So those are swastikas. So what? It’s all just a matter of context.

I fear they — papers and commentators and politicians — are losing interest and sympathy at the same rate. They’ve heard it all before. We Jews need to find other ways to make our harrowing history compelling. We’ve tried losing. We’ve tried winning. I’m not sure what’s left.


Howard Jacobson is a Booker Prize-winning novelist.


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UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
2 months ago

What does one even do with this? I feel that something terrible is about to happen, but cannot act to stop or slow it. I have never been one for prayer, but I feel compelled to pray for the people of Israel.

Arthur King
Arthur King
2 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Like what? Iran attacking? Israel has nukes.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
2 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

While you’re at it why not pray for all humanity? It might make you feel better but it’s quite useless.

Andrew D
Andrew D
2 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it!

Mike Downing
Mike Downing
2 months ago
Reply to  Andrew D

I’m getting a distinct 60’s vibe – are you a child of that era ? Were you ‘letting it all hang out? I think we should be told.

El Uro
El Uro
2 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I hope Cannibals are included?
I have long noticed that women are the most persistent pityers of serial rapists.

Samantha Stevens
Samantha Stevens
2 months ago
Reply to  El Uro

Not this one.

LeeKC C
LeeKC C
2 months ago

Not this one either!

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  El Uro

Perhaps you believe the young girls of Telford, Rochdale and Rotheram are to blame for wanting to be loved?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Can you prove that it is useless?

Kent Ausburn
Kent Ausburn
2 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Because there is a large part of Humanity that do not deserve prayer, except, perhaps, for their demise.

Arthur King
Arthur King
2 months ago

Most of The West supports Israels right to exist. Politicians need to placate Islamists who are known to get stabby when challenged. So they let the rabble protest. As The West moves to the far right these Islamists will be dealt with.

A D Kent
A D Kent
2 months ago
Reply to  Arthur King

Israel’s right to exist as what?

Juan P Lewis
Juan P Lewis
2 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

As it is. The only country where Arabs enjoy full rights as citizens, even to the extent that one of them can send a PM to jail.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
2 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

As a state.

A D Kent
A D Kent
2 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Not as an Apartheid religious ethno-state?

Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
2 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Compared to who? Iran?

Your own “apartheid” is on full and ugly display.

Josef O
Josef O
2 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Instead of promoting empty slogans use your time to study the reality of this conflict, unless you are biased.

Dennis Roberts
Dennis Roberts
2 months ago
Reply to  Josef O

He’s not biased, he’s a conspiracy theorist.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
2 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

On your question of an ‘apartheid religious ethno-state?’, a few minutes of a session of the UN Human Rights Council, 20 March 2017 gives you an answer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35eEljsSQfc

As does the silence that follows.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Whatever it chooses?

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
2 months ago
Reply to  Arthur King

It’s true that politicians are venal enough to want to placate the Islamists, but I think the point raised earlier about this sort of uniform progressive enculturation of the universities is actually an issue

as a former university lecturer. I came up against these “truths” which include anti-Israeli position, vehement pro trans position, and disdain of Catholics, capitalism and straight white men . As a (cultural) Catholic, anti-Islamist, pragmatist, and frequent consort of straight white men (at the very least my dad and brother) I felt quite in the wilderness and silenced.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  Dr. G Marzanna

It will only be an issue until they face the ‘wrath of Islam’. The peace supporters in the border concert didn’t find Hamas particularly welcoming.
There was also marvellous example of what Islam is in the UK, in an X video of a young Islamic preacher haranguing his male followers for protesting with women. Apparently they should have their segregated protests.
Islam is at war in virtually every area of the globe. So far in the West, it is only intermittent, BUT it won’t remain so IF Israel ever ceases to exist. It wasn’t the IDF filling the Manchester Arena.

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago

“Voice for voice, the educated out-sang the ignorant in bigotry and bloodlust.” I get what the writer is trying to say, but this isn’t quite right. Better would have been if he’d written

“Voice for voice, the *university indoctrinated* out-sang the *naturally intelligent* in bigotry and bloodlust.”

The efficacy of Hamas propaganda on the university indoctrinated has been astounding. But it’s worth keeping in mind that the university indoctrinated are hellbent across the whole cultural field on a social revolution that only they see merit in. They, perhaps just 10% of any Western country’s population, plus another 20% or so who follow them cluelessly, have captured all our social and cultural institutions. They are people dedicated to inverting all order, sense and morality. Because that’s what universities, as they followed their institutional logic to its reductio ad absurdum, have taught them to do.

The pity is, elite cultural inversion and abandoning of common sense hasn’t led to new universal truths, but a childish black-and-white morality, absolutism, an attraction to simplified narratives lacking in nuance or any kind of multi-factor complexity, ideological incoherence and intellectual intolerance.

In these dire circumstances, bad faith actors such as Hamas have figured out how to take advantage of elite derangement.

All that I would say to Israelis is, you must survive this.

Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

it would greatly help the Israelis survive if they could get on and complete what they’re seeking to do in Gaza – if that’s possible. It’s taking too long. Yes, the logistics are against them but every week that passes, the support they’ve required becomes a little less sure. The result is essays such as this – asking the existential question that would’ve been unthinkable for Jews to be asking themselves only a short while ago.
Where are the updates, against particular goals to be achieved in Gaza? This could provide a narrative which is sorely lacking. A major aspect of the conflict is the information war and Israel is losing; not because they’re incapable of winning but they’re just not going about it the right way, in seeking to get those who might normally be sympathetic on board and keeping them onboard with what’s happening on the ground in Gaza. In the absence of such, people will see only an endless campaign and ultimately, a void.

John Murray
John Murray
2 months ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

My concern is that they have no idea how to “finish the job.” They have gone off half-cocked in a rage, and levelled most of Gaza. They are now predictably confronted with over a million people in one spot with no way of getting at the terrorists hiding amongst them without mass casualties on hither too unseen scale.
I do understand on a human level that the way they have gone about it is pretty much the natural response. Kill the bastards, let God sort them out. I do understand. But now they have got themselves in a trap and it is difficult to see what they can do to get out. Can’t back out, can’t move forward.

Doug Israel
Doug Israel
2 months ago
Reply to  John Murray

Gone off in a rage? Completely the opposite of the truth. You sir have been infected by Hamas propaganda

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug Israel

Yeh exactly – Netanyahu’s is only a government which has helped create Hamas, is losing popularity in Israel, that makes no secret of the fact it intends to shrink Gaza, which it sees as populated by ‘human animals,’ and which makes war announcements citing genocidal passages from the Bible. If a terrorist attack of the kind that happened to Israel happened to the UK I would not want the whole population of their country of origin to be collectively punished (just as I don’t like that Britain committed war crimes against Dresden which were not necessary to achieving its military aims against Hitler) and every hospital razed to the ground. I would want a solution that best brings about peace, whether that’s a prisoner swap, population exchange or a special operation to free the prisoners.
Of course people on here will be right to retort that Hamas is deeply entrenched and that makes a special operation difficult. That doesn’t mean American and Israeli military strategists are not considering this option – they’re not saying it’s ‘impossible.’ The more I read about the possible solutions, the clearer it seems that in the ‘realistic’ world, which most readers on here condescendingly claim I am divorced from, an invasion of Gaza is no likelier to end the evil of Hamas (it will likely create something worse) than peace proposals.
As it stands there’s of course little we can do, besides hoping that the US will keep curbing Netanyahu’s bloodlust, and standing up for Palestinians wherever they are experiencing more undefendable acts of violence (incidentally where do we stand on the growing settler attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank?)
This seems to be a war with lots of ordinary people on either side who are furious with their leaders’ pursuit of destruction, fuelled by people who say that no other option but blind acceptance of Netanyahu’s invasion plans are permissible (and those who protest otherwise should be branded as hateful or even arrested), when there are clearly other positions to take. The Gazans’ thin complicity in the actions of their government (which a majority were not happy with), does not mark them out as an evil hoard to be crushed.

Tony Plaskow
Tony Plaskow
2 months ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Have you wondered why most people on here think you’re divorced from reality?

It might be because you use extraordinarily selective items to back up a set of points which range from absurd (you cite a single biblical qoute that was not really about genocide whilst not unpacking (like the whole world fails to) why the ACTUAL genocide hasn’t happened when the Israelis could kill every Palestinian in about 18 minutes and their population has boomed for decades) they to being what appears basic anti Israel propaganda – your special operation is what they’re trying to achieve but they use humans, usually old women, as shields. Literally as shields.

Hospitals have been razed because they’ve been used as military command centres for years.

Your comments are mostly a shambles, think why most people say that?

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
2 months ago
Reply to  Tony Plaskow

Tell me why your more realistic approach will work out. And tell me why the attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank are justified.

Dr E C
Dr E C
2 months ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

What is the foundation (of military knowledge/ strategy) upon which you make your claims about WW2? And what would something ‘worse’ than Hamas look like to you?

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
2 months ago
Reply to  Dr E C

So assuming that by this question you think that the allied bombing of Germany is comparable to Israel’s bombing of Gaza as necessary to achieve a widely accepted military goal…
The jury seems to be out on whether the allies’ intense bombing of civilian targets in WWII paid off, with one report claiming that beyond a certain level it was futile and a case of war crime (source 1), while others like Peter Hitchens (writing for Unherd, source 2) and the historians Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook (also writers for unherd, source 3) have also shown how the UK and the USA deserve less moral credit for WWII than we give them as we see in their antisemitic disinterest in bombing the railway lines to German concentration camps, despite knowing the location of some of them at least as early as 1944 (see also source 4).
All this amounts to the possible irony that in debating me (considered on here some kind of anti-semite) you’ve (no doubt unwittingly) favourably deployed an example of a country whose military priorities revealed clear anti-semitism.
source 1: https://aoav.org.uk/2020/the-effects-of-strategic-bombing-in-wwii-on-german-morale/
source 2: https://unherd.com/2019/11/the-war-was-not-our-finest-hour/
source 3: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-man-who-escaped-auschwitz/id1537788786?i=1000591854991
source 4 Y. Bauer (1980), ‘Genocide: Was It the Nazis’ Original Plan?’ in The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science pp. 35-45
Add to this the fact that peace with Germany was ensured by immediately adopting Germany as a friend after WWII without proper de-Nazification because of the Soviet threat, (which Israel will never do with Gaza and Hamas), and the comparing of this ‘war’ and its chances of success with that of the allies against Germany becomes even more stupid.
And something worse than Hamas? How about a Hamas which has broad rather than narrow support from the Gazan population now that upwards of 30,000 parents have lost their children in this destruction?

Andrew F
Andrew F
2 months ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Problem with your outline of history is that:
1) Germany unconditionally surrendered. They knew they were defeated.
2) There were people in Germany like Adenauer who ware capable of outlining and implementing better path to German future prosperity.
Yes, clearly Soviet threat and takeover od Eastern Europe made implementation of Morgentau plan impossible.

None of the above applies to Hamas situation. They want destruction of Israel and genocide of Jews.

You have no realistic proposal for dealing with this conflict apart from wanting ceasefire, so Hams can regroup and attack again.

No possible Israeli government would ever allow it.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

With regard to WW2 , Albert Speer disagreed with you. He said after the 1943 hamburg Raid, another 6 to 7 on major cities could have stopped the war.
Vast resources were used to defend Germany against bombing: 750,000 men, radar, 55,000 guns and nightfighters . If the 88mm guns had been at Kursk, Germany could have won the battle as it was superb anti-tank weapon. The 88mm gun could destroy any Allied tank before it came in range. How many 88mm guns and twin engine night fighter bombers armed with 20mm cannon and Rommel wins in in N Africa.
The Dam Busters Raid diverted vast resources from construction projects along the Atlantic coast. Speer wondered why not more raids on dams were attempted.
In 1943, the USSR was still hard pressed; the bombing from mid 1940 showed Britain had the will to fight and bougth time for the USSR. Churchill had a concern that if Britain and the USA were not seen to be attacking Germany, Stalin could negotiate some sort of truce.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
2 months ago
Reply to  Dr E C

Responded almost as soon as you posted this, but it’s still being held up by the unherd censor.

Dov Hamburger
Dov Hamburger
2 months ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

simply untrue ..The Gazans’ thin complicity in the actions of their government (which a majority were not happy with), does not mark them out as an evil hoard to be crushed…….they were happy with the massacre & the majority are happy with Hammas

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
2 months ago
Reply to  Dov Hamburger

Evidence please

BradK
BradK
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug Israel

Indeed. If the IDF really wanted to lash out they would have flatted Gaza to rubble in a week. Instead they are conducting a very strategic war with much greater concern for the civilians of their enemy than their enemy has of their own, let alone any semblance of international laws, treaties, or rules of engagement. And yet the world still condemns Israel — as it always has — for continuing to survive. How dare they!

Marshall Auerback
Marshall Auerback
2 months ago
Reply to  John Murray

John is right. The real problem was that the goals were unrealistic (namely, the destruction of Hamas) and now the sad irony is that the IDF has created a new generation of Hamas supporters, most of whom will harbor eternal hatred in their hearts for Israel because of what the IDF has done.

Jim M
Jim M
2 months ago

They were always going to hate the Jews no matter what happened. If it were Arab on Arab violence, the Palestinians could have disappeared and no one would really bat an eye. No Jews, no news.

Phil Re
Phil Re
2 months ago

I disagree. Despite the tremendous clout of the Hamas lobby, Hamas’s few battalions in Rafah can be defeated. If they fall and the two intact battalions in central Gaza are dismantled as well, Hamas will cease to exist as an organized military force in Gaza.
As for the eternal hatred, I’m not too worried about that. The Palestinians already have major issues as a result of living under Hamas’s totalitarian rule since 2007. A vast majority of them supported the slaughter of October 7 and the taking of hostages. The way to deal with their issues is to get another Arab country to oversee education in Gaza so that Gazans understand that Hamas—together with Iran, Qatar, and the British left—are responsible for everything that has happened to them.

martin logan
martin logan
2 months ago
Reply to  Phil Re

Sounds like the US in 1967, talking about the Viet Cong.
In the Real World, it takes a ratio of 10:1 to defeat guerrillas.
When the IDF also has simmering conflicts in Southern Lebanon, Syria, and the West Bank, where is it going to get that number of troops???
The war is lost.
Admit it.
You’ll sleep better…

Phil Re
Phil Re
2 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

That’s not a good analogy. By your reasoning, Hamas’s effective fighting force would never have been reduced from the 35-40k it had on October 7 to the 10-12k it still has in commission. The other theaters may buy the Hamas forces some time in their tunnels, but they can be dismantled.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

They’ll demand conscription off us,that seems to be a reality in waiting for us,out grandsons,my great nephews,but chillingly girls too. And our governments will be only too happy to.comply because it’s so obvious,they are itching to have a good pretext to bring in CONSCRIPTION on. But don’t think being an Oldie will let you off. They are also using the weasel word.”mobilisation” so the too young ,+ too old will get “mobilized” – I don’t want to work in a munitions factory making shells larks a mussy wot a lucky break for me ma’am I ain’t gotta be your parlour maid no more,I gotta job! Sorry I’m one of the few people who know it’s not 1914 OR 1939.

Andrew F
Andrew F
2 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

This war is existential for Israel.
They need to win it.
They will.
They have nukes….

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
2 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Existential ? A few hundred guys on bikes caused mayhem because the Israelis hubristically put their faith in a ‘high – tech’ wall .
The wailing wall looks a lot tougher to knock down .

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
2 months ago
Reply to  Phil Re

A vast majority of them supported the slaughter of October 7 and the taking of hostages. 
Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

If tbat was actually the case, why haven’t Gazans, handed over the Hamas cowards to the UN? Explain please…

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago

The IDF? LOL – Try searching out the Youtube video of the Hamas Women telling the world that they breed their children to rejoice in meeting their maker by scattering their bones and blood via bombs, as long as it kills Jews. She also went on to say that the mothers of the sons who were so bestial on Oct 7th rejoiced in the success of their sons AND if they were to be chosen as a suicide bomber, they would be happy to join them and so meet their God having killed Jews.
Islam is only EVER safe when it’s madmen are held in check by the likes of Saadam, Assad, Gadafi, Putin, the CCP or the hardmen leaders such as the Sheiks of the Oil States.
IF Israel loses this war, or it is ever overrun,then the West is next because they see us as decadent (Curiously, that’s probably the one thing they and I agree on)

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

For now perhaps. Maintain your endorsement of autocrats and warlords and you’ll find more overlap soon. Curious that you place Saddam, Assad, Gaddafi, and Putin in contrast with “madmen”. Whose your favorite?

John Riordan
John Riordan
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

To be fair, Saddam, Assad, Gaddafi, and Putin aren’t actually mad. They are/were in many respects hyper-rational but happen to be ruthless at a level that conflicts with Western norms of acceptable behaviour. I’m not saying that makes what they did acceptable, merely that they were products of insane and broken societies where violence is the norm and the rule of law counts for nothing. Who would want to live under such a brutal oppressor? Nobody who had a better alternative. But if you don’t have that alternative, but the alternative is that you’re in the realistic danger of being stoned to death by an enraged mob on the basis of nothing more than your embittered neighbour’s word just because you looked at him in a way he didn’t like last week, yes, you’d prefer the dictator.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I understand the argument but to me that moral sickness and runaway hubris is indeed a form of madness, one far more dangerous than that of 999 out of 1,000 raving lunatics.
While I accept that the times and cultural norms provide a large part of the explanation for their dictatorial rise, we can agree that those conditions don’t amount to a justification of their methods or overreach. Nor was there nothing better available, though nothing of sufficient strength, courage, and determination emerged at the crucial pivot point. There are less bloody and cruel counterfactuals that could have emerged, not that speculating about them until our figurative cows return will do us much good.
I also think you’re indulging in an overbroad pathologisation of whole societies. I think your characterisation of societies where ‘you’re in the realistic danger of being stoned to death by an enraged mob on the basis of nothing more than your embittered neighbour’s word just because you looked at him in a way he didn’t like last week’ refers to Islamic theocracies and communist tyrannies, and quite fairly so. But Syria was a notorious police state for decades before the more recent ‘troubles’–just about as right wing a power structure as they come. I’m sure the rule of law was not evenly or humanely applied in any reliable way, but some must have preferred that level of Law & Order, especially compared to the New & Enhanced warzone police state that followed. Syria has a de facto aristocracy and Assad is comparable to an hereditary monarch–one with actual, sweeping powers.
Meeting extremes with extremes may indeed provide temporary improvement in living conditions, even a reduction in rampant societal madness, but not in the long run. Attempts at moderation and sanity may fail, but they are worth the attempt.
Why do I have to choose my favourite form of moral insanity or state tyranny?
For complex ‘reasons’ I don’t pretend to fully understand, East Germany chose one path after the war, West Germany another. I do not accept that as the mere product of the environment or social conditions, on either side of what became the Berlin Wall.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Islam has undergone various alterations. The Muslim Brotherhood was created in 1924 to reject Western cultural influences. Qutb went to Califoria in the late 1940s and saw men and women dancing together and provided further theological justification of rejection of western culture due to emancipation of women. Abul Madaudi had similar views in India.
The MB received little support in the 1940s and 1950s. In the late 1930s the rise of Pan Arabic Nationalism such as the Baath Party ( founded by a Christian) grew in power. PAN united Arab countries in order to destroy Israel in 1948: they failed. PAN inspired Nasser who overthrow King Farouk of Egypt in 1952. The Baath Party overtrew the King in Iraq in 1958 and Ghadafi overthrew King Idris in Libya in 1968. PAN was supported by the USSR. The defeat of Syria and Egypt in the 1973 Yom Kippur led the MB to state that both Capitalism and Communism are products of The West and should be rejected. The rise of Saudi money post 1979, success of Khomeini in Iran USSR; invasion of Afghanistan; in Pakistan Zia al Haq coming to power pushing Deobandi/ WahabiIslam, influence of Pakistan ISI has pushed the Muslim World away from secular nationlism towards Salaafi /Bin Laden Sunni Islam who take their spiritual guidance from Wahab of the 1750s and Ibn Tamiyya of the late 13th- early 14th centuries . The MB murdered Sadat in 1981. al Assad senior murdered 20,000 MB supporters in Hama in 1982
If one looks at newsreel of Cairo, Beirut and Kabul from late 1960s one sees women wearing mini skirts.
The rise of violent Salaafi Sunni terrrorism is due to the failure of the more secular Pan Arabic Nationalism. Muslim monarchies who rule through consulation of tribal leaders have remained in power, Morocco and Jordan for example.
What we are witnessing is a conflict between Muslims who wish to reject Western Culture and return to pre 14 century World and those who wish to absorb aspects of Western culture while keeping various aspects of Islam. A major aspect is the massive growth in the Muslim population, limited resources, corruption, lack of consultation between rulers and ruled, massive variations in wealth with the wealthy enjoying western culture which appears decadent and anti Muslim to the middle classes. Look at how Imran Khan has had to alter his image to keep support. The support for MB/Salaafi/ Wahabi view of Islam largely comes from disaffected lower middle class, very similar to those who supported French Revolution, Russian Revolution, Nazis and Mao.
HAMAS though a MB offshoot is heavily influenced by Iran which reduces it’s support amongst Sunni nations.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

*another quarantined reply pending (this gets a bit silly when nothing incendiary or rude has even been typed–unlike my riled-up response to Bill Bailey, which posted instantly)
wrong place.

Andrew F
Andrew F
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

If you really believe that East Germany “chose one path” etc, you must know some alternative history of Europe.
Path for them and the rest of Soviet Block was chosen by Stalin.
Berlin Wall came much later, when outflow of young Germans from communist paradise would result in only pensioners and Stasis left.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Thanks for clearly-stated, thought-provoking reply. My response has been auto-quarantined, probably for some multiple of 6 hours. “Spoiler alert”: I disagree, in major part, with most of your premises as I perceive them.
*18 hours

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Correct, you understood what I was saying. Islam is worse than Putin, Saddam and ALL the other ‘hard men’.
There are people in the UK who thought ISIS and their Caliphate were preferable to UK democracy!

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  John Riordan

They all posed a challenge to USA supremacy,political and dollar and for goodness sake they.expected ‘Muricans” to PAY MONEY for their commodities….talk about uppity n…..s.
We showed the way via the Indian people with cotton and the Chinese.with tea. That’s what you do. You put the natives IN THEIR PLACE and steal their stuff. And God says it’s ok.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I’ve not endorsed or supported them, I’m telling you facts. Real Politik.
Here’s a quote attributed to George Orwell or Kipling perhaps. But you may like to think on it as you go to bed tonight.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

To me, your “realism” is damn near indistinguishable from viciousness and bloodthirst.
Whatever lets you sleep at night.
*Your interest in Reality and Facts is far more selective and pre-determined than you admit.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The quote is from Orwell and Kipling said something similar about mocking soldiers who protect you.
When Churchill set up the Commandos he based them on a butcher and bolt principle. The SOE was set up to set Europe ablaze. When Nancy Wake GM was asked if she had any regrets ” Yes, I did not kill enough Nazis “.
The training the Commandos and SOE went through was very effective, it was also brutal.
Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife (youtube.com)
Jeremy Clarkson’s the Greatest Raid of All – the FULL documentary | North One (youtube.com)
The important question is how does one select, train and put people through combat but without them becoming a threat outside of war? Britain and the Commonwealth have been successful, other countries less so.
When it comes to Islam it is worthing studying Indian history from 750 to 1750AD.
Sandeep Balakrishna on Brutal Mughal Rule & Destruction of India | Abhijit Chavda Podcast 32 (youtube.com)

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I understand the basic import of the quote, and it’s rough validity. And I get that we can’t go around removing dictators when their own people won’t remove them–that has proven disastrous in all but the most dire historical circumstances.
I just don’t buy that dictators and megalomaniacs improve our world, or that they are inextricably or interchangeably linked with the violence-ready rough men one needs in every war, perhaps every neighborhood. Roughness doesn’t need to be vicious or vengeful.
A thorny problem indeed: What do we do with those who return from war, often more-or-less physically intact, but shellshocked or deranged by their war experiences? In the States, many end up homeless, on a police force, or dead by their own hands.
Our training methods might be too brutal, our breadth and frequency of global “wargames” excessive.
You’ve frequently talked about the rough and ready, anti-fragile men who were forged by the 2nd World War, expressing your sincere admiration for them. I share some of that admiration for those types of warrior patriots. But there another part of that population, likelier to hold a begging cup than a power saw or fireman’s axe, or rarely leave the house at all.
I’ll click your link soon.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

What the West fails to realise is that the Arab nationalism of Assad, S Hussein and Ghadafi when removed is rplaced by Wahabi/Salaafi/ Muslim Brotherhood not democracy.
The problem for the West is that the diplomats and foreign journalists do not realise the affluent cosmopolitan highly educated Muslims they know from public school and university have no political power anymore.
When Nasser removed King Farouk it was the end of royal /aristocratic power and the lower middle class military officer came to power focused on developing the country. These have now been replaced by poorly educated Wahabi/Salaafi/Muslim Brotherhood mullahs from the backstreets.
The removal of S Hussein and Gaddafi has allowed the sunni Salaafi MB types to take power; hence our problems.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Ok maybe, to some extent, sure. I’ll have to study up on that before I can give a proper reply. But you’ll never get me to accept or “understand” that those are the only two choices.
The removal of Iraq’s and Libya’s long-time leader occurred post 9/11–hence our fundamental geopolitical Problems most certainly pre-dated those events.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

*another quarantined reply pending (this gets a bit silly when nothing incendiary or rude has even been typed–unlike my riled-up response to Bill Bailey, which posted instantly)
*this needed to be sectioned for 18 hours?!

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I think once Islam is mentioned, the censors have have the vapours and need smelling salts to recover.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Maybe so.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Well on the radio I heard that Hamas have refused this latest.offer of a ceasefire and negotiations and all my sympathy has flown away. You can’t cure stupid. Yes,the Jews are brutal in their psychopathic determination of Never Again. Do you realise that in the 1930s our British Parliament passed NUMEROUS laws to STOP Jewish refugees from coming here. They could all have got in leaky boats off friesland and been at the Suffolk coast in. 2 hours but that didn’t happen. Why not?
Research that.If the Jews of Germany,Holland + Belgium had shown armed resistance,refused to comply,and kicked off,like we all should do nowadays our Government would.have been the loudest in condemnation of them. In the 1930s the British population,the working class and the Aristos were deeply anti-semitic,and most posh young ladies really fancied Nazi officers in those cool Hugo Boss uniforms. Sexy.or what. The workers didn’t want any Ikey Mo’s living next door (pal of Ally Sloper). Oh I forgot,more then 5 years ago,”before my time”. (Said on every tv quiz show going – by people with jobs!).

Tony Plaskow
Tony Plaskow
2 months ago

When you say ‘eternal hated of Jews”and then blame that on the IDF’s response to an horrific massacre of civilians I think you rather miss the point.

The vast majority of’ Palestinians’ already eternally hate the Jews, support their terrorist leaders who have the annihilation of Israel and death to all Jews as their charter/aim, and the specific reason we are discussing this today is due to their actions from that hate.

Were somewhat passed the point you think we just arrived at. Hamas must be destroyed

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
2 months ago

The IDF didn’t create the new generation of Jew haters, they learn it from a very early age in their schools. Did the IDF also create the hatred exemplified in our horribly corrupted colleges and Universities worldwide?

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Their horrible fat,legs wide open Mothers start to inculcate violence into them even while they’re emerging from the birth passage. They worship their sons who got themselves blown up and teach the younger ones to emulate. And as they pop out a baby every other month it seems there is always plenty more. My sympathy for that side has dissipated on hearing them refuse the latest ceasefire offer and negotiations. The Jews have been under.such.international pressure this could have been a turning point but the Pallies right from 1947 onwards have proved obdurately stupid and incapable of negotiating a good deal or at least a “good enough” deal and building on that. Right from the start I’ve said two things. The October 7th atrocity was planned and funded by the CIA in order to.create a suitable pretext.for The Yahoo to go on this killing spree. The Yahoo,like me,knows where Hamas comes from,the uterus and vaginas of Pally women. So he’s going for the source. But not saying that of course. I would do that if I was in a parallel situation to him. It’s the most logical and intelligent thing to do. Most people think “eradicating Hamas” means locating and “cleanly and surgically” removing ie killing fighting age young men,the rest is collateral damage. No, the rest is the actual target.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

I don’t think you can credibly claim to have ever had much sympathy for the “horrible fat-legs wide open Mothers” who “pop out a baby every other month”.
Not for a good while since anyway. You’re in flat-out genocidal territory now–on virtuous pretenses, of course.
You encourage as much violence as the Mothers you condemn, “lady”.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Up to now I’ve been firmly on the Palestinians side so folk like me get monstered by both sides. Like Jews who go on Palestinian support marches and get called “anti-semitic ” by.simpletons like you for whom the world is black and white with no nuances or complexities. I bet also you’re in favour of NOT reintroducing the death sentence aren’t you too. Because anyone who.kills is a victim of abuse so needs help and sympathy. Like I say no complexity.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The Palestinian have pushed fro the destruction of the Jews ever since the Husseini Clan took over leadership in the 1930s.
Raids on Jewish settlements in the 1930s led Orde Wingate to create the Special Night Squads. The SNS were the first Special Forces anti- guerilla unit; Moshe Dayan was a member. If one believes in Divine destiny why did He will Order Wingate to be in Palestine in the 1930s? OW was the worst possible person for the Arabs to be in Palestine and the best possible one for the Jewish settlers. Moshe Dayan said OW taught us how to fight.

Marshall Auerback
Marshall Auerback
2 months ago
Reply to  John Murray

John is right. The real problem was that the goals were unrealistic (namely, the destruction of Hamas) and now the sad irony is that the IDF has created a new generation of Hamas supporters, most of whom will harbor eternal hatred in their hearts for Israel because of what the IDF has done.

Graeme Crosby
Graeme Crosby
2 months ago

The IDF has not created any. They were already primed by a Jew hating school currículum for children and iron fist control of adults to go along with the Hamas narrative. If you didn’t agree with Hamas and made that public, expect to end up dead.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
2 months ago
Reply to  Graeme Crosby

I agree with you and have wondered whether the Israelis should kill as many Palestinian children as possible before they grow up into fighters. This is the awful logic of genocide. In c16 many Elizabethians took such a view of the Irish

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

The actual “we can’t say it plain” PLAN.
In a way,now they HAVE TO

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

In no way true. People need to reject evil- for-evil escalations, whatever their bloodthirsty or lurid appeal.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago

Which is why The Yahoo now has to kill every last one. Of course there.are some in other countries,didn’t they.bomb a camp in Lebanon -.,but it was a “mistake”?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

You grow sicker in the head and heart with each lunar cycle.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Excuse me,do you know ANYTHING ABOUT me. Please tell me my profession,occupation,job,my cultural interests,or do I not have any,tell.me what books I read,describe the house I live in,tell me my bank balance eh,judge me id im poor it’s because I’m.feckless and stupid,if I’m rich it’s because I’m selfish and grasping. Tell me about myself as you obviously know me much better than I do. Oh because I say out plain what you The Yahoo and thus the Israeli political.administration.is.actually me DOING I’m responsible for it and I approve of it. How simple minded. If I say it’ll rain tomorrow and it does,did I summon the rain. Now,come on I want my whole biography,you know it better than me. You know all about me.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

More evidence for my diagnosis, despite the lack of personal context, which you could easily provide in some measure.
WAIT!…are you being darkly ironic this whole time?
A lot of bad consecutive posts from you either way still but, if so, I offer you a qualified apology. I certainly don’t see much nuance and complexity in any of your posts.
Do you imagine that what you type online has NO real-world impact?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  John Murray

When the UN aid staff are involved in the pogrom of October 7th and the photos of the defiled body of the young Israeli girl (probably a concert goer) are applauded and cheered by the population, AND a Hamas mother actually broadcasts that Hamas Women are bred to die by suicide IF it kills Jews AND they prefer that martydom to life AND they’d accompany their sons on such missions given the choice. Then I’m prepared to cause shock and horror to say perhaps 32,000 of the Hamas ‘claimed’ dead are terrorists? Or does a mother, young girl, wired up to kill not count as a Terrorist?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Perhaps you’ve converted your militant worldview into a speculative number, extrapolated from the comment of one mother and a handful of others.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

The numbers weren’t mine. Perhaps you believed all the numbers Ukraine reported on Russia’s casualties and the MSM that Russia was collapsing under the sanctions, that Western Armour would roll over the Russian Army?
My world view is to observe, and generally be very ‘untrusting’ of the Western MSM.
I wasn’t involved in rolling into Israel and murdering, raping, kidnapping and abusing. That would be the bunch that you are telling me are driven to hate by the IDF.
My ‘militarised view’ of the world is because that’s how it is. Show me the evidence that Islam isn’t at war in virtually every continent on the planet. AND that their war is nothing more than a desire to make the likes of you and everyone else worship their God.
In fact show me where the religion of peace is actually at peace? They aren’t even at peace with their own people!.
Oh for a new camera to turn up in Gaza with the ‘Queers for Islam’ – how do you think that would work out?
You live in a bubble, I hope it is never burst, for your sake.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Haha!
*You arrogant fool.
**The original number wasn’t yours but the nasty calculation most certainly was. “Perhaps” the tens of thousands of dead are, conveniently for your troubled sleep, “all terrorists”, in your own darkly-opinionated claim. At least own it.
***you confuse meanspiritedness with realism
****I have quite a varied media diet. Check your bubble dude.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

The Pallies are very stupid. Since 1947 they’ve proved useless at negotiating any deal let alone a “good enough” one.
I was angry and outraged at how their land was stolen(even if paid for in money,) but now since they refused the latest ceasefire offer only put out by huge international pressure on the Jews,to me,they have proved how stupid they are. They are so stupid they don’t even recognize that the fact no other neighbouring Arab country will let them in shows their standing up for Islam or whatever they think they’re doing is a waste of time. The two countries Lebanon and Jordan who have let some in make them live in permanent refugee camps they must never leave.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

How long has it been since you regarded the civilians there as fully human, and not a contagion to be exterminated en masse?

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Bloody f*****g hell for the last six months I’ve been championing the Palestinians and getting monstered in my locality for that..Now because I’m fed up with this saying no to the chance of a ceasefire,a genuine chance I’m exasperated and goons like you lay into me. Where were you to lay into my previous critics then. Also my whole life story please,the one.YOU KNOW better than me.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

I support a ceasefire. Despite all out disagreements and temperamental misunderstandings, I regret that our exchange has been such a squawk fest.
Patronizing? Maybe–but I mean it.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Hey that Mac guy called me “sick in the head” for saying much less than that. Is there one law for one and one law for another. Yes,there is.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

I’ll make an effort to see where you’re really coming from and to let you vent rather than enrage you further going forward. But did you or did you not advocate the total annihilation of the people you call Pallies?
Was that some kind of rhetorical sleight of hand?
Please clarify. The harshness of my tone is influenced by a series of insulting replies you left to my comments on the Richard Dawkins article several days ago.
So far, to hear you tell it, I’m a simpleton with a White Saviour Complex who delivers patronising little pats on the head, for starters. So this ain’t some one-way insult street.

David Taylor
David Taylor
2 months ago
Reply to  John Murray

The Saudis and Emiratis are waiting in the wings to be at the forefront of any Gazan rebuilding project. They just need someone to do the dirty work of destroying Hamas. After Oct 7th Israel was left with no choice but to undertake this task by itself.
Even after all the visible and violent destruction Israel unleashed on Gaza, the Abraham accords are still very much intact. This speaks volumes.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
2 months ago
Reply to  David Taylor

Agreed. this is one of the few comments I’ve read anywhere that is both sensible and forward-thinking. The Arab states are beginning to come around to the idea that Israel is not going anywhere and peace is far more profitable than war. The coast of Gaza will be fabulously valuable real estate one day and it won’t be Palestinian fishermen who get rich on it. And there’s the opportunity for these oil-states to diversify their economies; especially since the Palestinians are known to be smart and industrious.
My fingers are crossed for the Abraham accords.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago

Stupid is as stupid does. Stupid gets handed a valuable piece of real estate,it immediately blows up the infrastructure to happy partying then spends years digging stupid tunnels. Intelligent would set up ice cream.stalls at the fabulous beach and invite Europeans to visit in order to fleece them.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  David Taylor

I hope so.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago
Reply to  David Taylor

God points, especially as Hamas is a Muslim Brotherhood organisation now influenced by Iranian clerics. Khomeini declared war on Sunni monarchies, hence the support for Hussein in the Iraq Iranian War.

John Riordan
John Riordan
2 months ago
Reply to  John Murray

This is nonsense, sorry. The Israeli attack on Gaza, despite the admittedly enormous collateral costs, has been governed from the start by the primary objective of minimising civilian casualties. It is of course impossible to minimise them below a regrettably high threshold, but that is simply because Hamas uses Palestinian civilians as human shields, not because Israeli forces care nothing for civilian casualties and press on regardless.

You presumably don’t agree with this: well fine, whatever. But nevertheless, a clear-eyed look at how Israel is prosecuting this offensive will show that its slow pace of progress, fighting hand-to-hand and taking urban territory tactically, is the direct consequence of refusing to take a scorched earth approach to Palestine: something it has the power to do if it so wished.

The enemy of every civilised principle is Hamas, not Israel, and only a fool thinks otherwise.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  John Riordan

The Yahoo is actually doing WHAT I WOULD DO,he is going for the SOURCE of Hamas. That source is WOMBS. Every time a whole lot of women and children get killed and the western media tell us it was a horrible mistake,it was a dreadful accident. OF COURSE IT WAS. (NOT. But got to keep the “sheeple” compliant). It’s better and easier on us to be able to believe it’s messy “collateral damage” than that they were the actual target.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
2 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

For your own sake this had better be satire, Jane.

Stowe Boyd
Stowe Boyd
2 months ago
Reply to  John Murray

I think you are falling into the trap Jacobson spelled out: ‘We do our humanity a great wrong when we let theories of power rule our politics and politics rule our hearts’.

Stephen Feldman
Stephen Feldman
2 months ago
Reply to  John Murray

Ignore world opinion. It didn’t do much for us for 2000 yrs. We can never please them unless we vanish. And if we did, they’d complain that we left them troubles they can’t solve. Jewish law: have no gods before Yahewh. That includes international farce law

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  John Murray

JM, I’m impressed with John Riordan’s reply to you, the one beginning: “This is nonsense, sorry. The Israeli attack on Gaza, despite the admittedly enormous collateral costs, has been governed from the start by the primary objective of minimising civilian casualties.”

The whole of his post wins the argument.

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
2 months ago
Reply to  John Murray

Hamas know how to exploit cognitive biases, use Takiya on clueless Westerners.
They know how to hide what they do, making their opponents appear as monsters.

El Uro
El Uro
2 months ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

Israel is losing information war?
Explain me, how Israel could win against all the MSM full of reporters with modern West universities background?
The war is too long?
Maybe, you know the magic tool to destroy 400 miles of tunnels in two days.
I am amazed by thoughtful remarks of this quality.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
2 months ago
Reply to  El Uro

How did the US Army deal with the tunnels in Vietnam?

Mike Downing
Mike Downing
2 months ago

With great difficulty, which is why the Americans finally resorted to napalm and then agent orange.

The Vietnamese also dug covered bear pits filled with sharpened bamboo spikes, and when one GI fell in, skewered himself and started screaming, others would come to help them and they could all be killed.

Given the population density in Gaza and the strategy of Hamas quite happily using them as human shields, the IDF have an almost impossible task.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

The concert goers who met the Palestinians were, according to the MSM ‘peace supporters’. They didn’t get much peace from Hamas.

The Manchester Arena was NOT full of IDF it was full of young girls and their mothers.

Forget our MSM or the mobs who freely roam the UK streets protesting. There is a large silent majority NOT of the Elite, who have experience of Islam on the streets of Britain. They know that one day, Islam is going to have to be faced. The protesters on that day may be very grateful to the white, working class males they so despise now. Because when that reckoning comes, it will be such boys and men that we turn to. It was ever thus.

Primary Teacher
Primary Teacher
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

I am one of the ‘Silent Majority’ – silent because of my job, which I would like to keep. I agree completely with what Bill is saying. It is a very difficult path to tread to educate small children when the majority of them you face across the classroom everyday are indoctrinated from a very young age to despise the white working class. One just has to hope that things will work out somehow?

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

….”God will know his own”…

John Potts
John Potts
2 months ago

With difficulty. It would destroy individual tunnels when it found them (using CS gas and explosives), but the network was so extensive that many remained undetected. Many more were destroyed through their location being betrayed to the ARVN/US forces via the Phoenix programme, and B52 carpet bombing from high altitude was perhaps the major destroyer. The sprawling US/ARVN base camp at Cu Chi was actually built (unwittingly) on top of a huge 200-mile network of tunnels! See Tom Mangold & John Penycate, The Tunnels of Cu Chi.
Mike: I believe both napalm and Agent Orange weren’t very effective against tunnels, as they are “surface weapons”. The B52 bombs could blast craters that were up to 30 feet deep – tunnels couldn’t withstand that kind of penetration.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
2 months ago
Reply to  John Potts

Perhaps the US could lend the IDF a few B52s.

Despite first entering service in 1955 I gather ‘they’ still have quite a few left..

To save embarrassment they could be flown from RAF Fairford, Glos.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago

Given the tunnels are under refugee camps and hospitals, I suspect the IDF wouldn’t gain that much benefit from the change of tactics.
As it stands they seem to be doing so good a job the allies of Hamas in the West are desperate to bring the war to a close.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago

Tunnel rats. Recruited small men and trained them to fight in tunnels.
Several years ago I heard an Israeli say he considered the IDF had lost it’s toughness. Has Israel relied too much on technology and lost it’s close quarter combat skills ? As Lt Col Peter Walter MC and Bar ( ex SAS and Parachute regiment ) said
“Any bloody fool can run and everybody can run like rabbits when under fire. It is whether a soldier can march long distances, carrying all his kit, across all terrains, in all weathers … and still be fit to fight. That is the mark of a good soldier.”
Lieutenant Colonel Peter Walter (MC & Bar, Malaya & Aden; SAS & Parachute Regiment) – British Militaria Forums (tapatalk.com)

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
2 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Has anyone tried Malinois dogs. I gather the ‘Special Forces’ are quite fond of them.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago

I saw video of an IDF Malinois dog in tunnel. Perhaps they need more of them.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
2 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Definitely.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago

The Israelis already use dogs. There are videos from cameras attached to the dogs available, in fact I watched some months ago. It seems their enemy aren’t that keen on dogs.
My personal view is that the better the Israelis and the IDF perform, the more the West demands a ceasefire. I’d suggest that the IDF are doing fine, but don’t brag about it.
Then as pointed out elsewhere, Western MSM are never going to support them, as they are ‘agin’ us as well as Jews. Where ‘us’ are the plebs of the UK. Still, we have a vote (for how long?) – use it well. Vote Reform that way we can bin both Labour and Tory and even if Reform is useless, they won’t be pushing Net Zero. Which is going to destroy any economy that suffers it.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

The next (golden mythic)General Election is going to be …um ..er ( the ONE man who has TOTAL power of yay or nay on this ,how is that democratic) is prevaricating. It’s going to be in May declares the media enthusiastically. Well I’m still thinking about it says The Man,maybe later in the summer. By late October the media will be saying..oh it’s going to be November,have to be late.November,not too close to.Xmas.
Close to Christmas a slightly puzzled media is saying “there’s only January left” so it’s got to be January. After New Year 2025 The Man,that one or a successor one,says ” what an.election,don’t think we’ll bother,they’re so time wasting and have you seen how much they cost? You do know our Treasury’s empty and There’s a War on. Anyway we passed a law the other afternoon,you know one of the many we just knock off on a quiet sleepy afternoon that the media never tells you about and Labour don’t bother either. So no more energy sapping,time wasting ,money frittering elections.
See if I’m not right. If you were them,would you?

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
2 months ago

My Korean friends tell me that they go very well with chips.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago

Poorly it would seem.

Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
2 months ago
Reply to  El Uro

Can you read? I was suggesting that Israel confirm where they were up to, so those in the West who support them (such as myself) can see where the campaign is going against the constant barrage of anti-Israeli propaganda.
Failing to do so is losing them the propaganda war. So if you can read, i’ll put it down to a failure of comprehension on your part.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
2 months ago
Reply to  El Uro

Edward Teller knew the magic tool

Marshall Auerback
Marshall Auerback
2 months ago
Reply to  El Uro

1200 2000 lb bunker busting bombs have not done the job, which does make one again query whether the IDF strategy is sound. The problem is that they are fighting a guerilla insurgency in a dense area without a viable strategy (unless you think the Carthaginian strategy is a sound one).
One hears the complaints, “Citizens are being killed because Hamas continues to hide amongst the citzenry! Or in the tunnels”. In other words, they are deploying classic 4G warfare insurgency tactics, while the Israelis complain that they are not coming out to fight in a straight 2G style war where they would almost certainly be annihilated.

R.I. Loquitur
R.I. Loquitur
2 months ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

Israel’s goal is to defeat Hamas and get the hostages back. Now you know.

Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
2 months ago
Reply to  R.I. Loquitur

Inane comments such as this will further Israel’s cause not one inch. And now you know.

R.I. Loquitur
R.I. Loquitur
2 months ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

The inanity is people like you expecting Israel to lay out its battle plans in the main stream media. They are at war, not in a reality show

Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
2 months ago
Reply to  R.I. Loquitur

But again, you’re lacking in comprehension. No-one is asking Israel to “lay out battle plans”, During conflicts such as WW2 the allied powers scored major propaganda victories following D-day by making clear what had been gained. That’s very different from a battle plan and it’s what Israel is failing to do

Similarly, with the African campaign led by Montgomery. If you don’t know history, you’ll continue with misapprehensions.

R.I. Loquitur
R.I. Loquitur
2 months ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

“Where are the updates, against particular goals to be achieved in Gaza?”

Yes, I’m sure Hamas would like to receive updates about Israel’s goals.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
2 months ago
Reply to  R.I. Loquitur

He said Israel should be more vocal about the progress they make towards broad goals that everyone is aware of, not to share specific intelligence for specific goals that rely on the secrecy of that intelligence to be achieved.

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

They’re broad goal is to kill every single Palestinian person and not leave one alive. The Yahoo told us that right at the very start or did you not recognize the significance of his using the word “Amalek” in reference to them. A lot of people got it right away.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
2 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

My comment higher up the page (5th comment) is very clear about the genocidal language. I was just correcting RIL because it seemed they did not get the basic (and fair I thought) point LL was making about Israel needing to be clearer about what positive progress they’re making (though I agree with you that it has mainly been unncecessary destruction)

jane baker
jane baker
2 months ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

All these “mistakes” in which women and children are killed
They’re not mistakes.
But you have to think like me to recognise that. And if you think like me you’ve got no friends
Ha ha.

Dr E C
Dr E C
2 months ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

Until recently Eylon Levy was doing a really good job of providing updates. Caroline Glick also has IDF military experts on her show from time to time who provide info on the ground. There are other people too but you have to trawl YouTube because MSM is captured

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

Israel is fighting our, as in the West’s, war. The ‘university’ Woke crowd aren’t worth worrying about. The streets of the West where the working class reside and who are increasingly aware of Islam, if asked, would probably accept that one day Islam is going to have to be faced down.

One intriguing article I read this week is about how Islam has taken over the UK prison system from the ‘crime’ gangs. It makes a worrying read. BUT the type of People Gordon Brown famously described as ‘bigoted’ know the reality on the ground.

Our ruling Elites do not appear to have ANYTHING right. I suppose the only comfort is that Net Zero is likely to destroy the UK quicker than Islam, but make no mistake, Islam is not our friend. Failure to back Israel and confront Iran may (assuming the Iranian people don’t get rid of their Religious Rulers) end up with Iranian Nuclear weapons detonated in Western Cities by Iranian proxies.

Look around the world, Islam is at war with many non-islamic populations in Africa, Asia, Middle East, Caucasus and Europe.
IF Israel is abandoned, then the Islamic Jihad will come to our comfortable (assuming the morons who rules us scrap Net Zero in time) homes far sooner than anyone would wish.

martin logan
martin logan
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

When we are struggling to contain Russia and China, the Israeli sideshow will just bankrupt us, to no purpose.
Israel shames us every day, and makes a mockery of our defense of genuine democracies in Ukraine and Taiwan.
All we can and should do now is defend the Gulf states and the Red Sea routes.
Let Israel fight it out with Iran, Syria and Russia on its own.
As clueless allies of a nation clearly engaged in war crimes and land theft on the West Bank, this shames us every day.

…Oh, right, so I must be antisemitic!?
If you consider only one explanation for everything, it usually turns out to be true.
Funny thing that…

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

The Gulf States are not very keen on the Palestinians, Hamas, The Muslim Brotherhood and Iran.

Andrew F
Andrew F
2 months ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

I think Israel goal in Gaza was clearly articulated:
Total destruction of Hamas.

Problem is that many people in the West, never mind Muslims and other 3rd world savages, want complete opposite:
Total destruction of Israel.
Somehow, Israel is less keen on the 2nd option.
I wonder why?

Sayantani G
Sayantani G
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

Eloquently and accurately put. Thank you.

Karen Jemmett
Karen Jemmett
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

Interesting perspective. The problem is that you can’t live by the principles of ongoing educative, human progress and then undermine them when they advance to the point of eroding the long-held advantages of some members of your own tribe. Only yesterday I was yelled at hysterically in the street by an elderly neighbour here in Paignton I’ve been on friendly terms with for over a decade. Apparently, my university education and latent civil service occupation has suddenly caused her some discomfort and offence. So we all need to be careful about this sudden tendency to castigate those who’ve equipped themselves with a university degree as indoctrinated fools intent on our collective cultural annihilation.
May I suggest that one of the reasons it ‘appears’ that the indoctrinated educationalists of the world are uniting against tyranny and backwardness is, well, because WE ARE! And a bleddy bout time too, to coin a common, local colloquial expression. What do you expect when the offspring of the British middle-classes are throwing their toys out of the classroom window and not even bothering to study beyond high school level any more? Few engage with the news media and spend their time with decadent trivia of one kind or another. Why should they bother when they’ve been told they’ll inherit grandmothers house and assets in return for turning their back on Enlightenment values? Is it any wonder university professors focus primarily on those who actually wish to be educated and who value the concept? And if they are increasingly from overseas, so be it, frankly. The other road will only bring even worse misery and destruction, let’s face it…
Like Howard, I have always been vehemently pro-Jewish here in the UK. Indeed, a quick perusal of my book shelf at home will reveal that the majority of my cultural influences have been of Jewish descent. There have been the odd occasion when I’ve encountered a bad un, but sadly – like Private Benjamin – Jewish culture isn’t sufficiently sanitised against misogynistic oppression and abuse yet. And UK law has historically created structural inequalities that make the lives of private tenants – even university-educated civil servants – a wretched form of modern-day slavery. Unfortunately, I am English so cannot attribute these things to race and ethnicity alone, but I do find myself increasingly having more common ground with those who can than those who peddle ignorance and intolerance to maintain the rural status quo.
Hey Howard, we once discussed your novel, The Finckler Question, at Paignton Book Club. It caused such a monumental fall out among friends that the group was disbanded shortly afterwards. I always remember the comments from the Booker Prize Judges that year when they virtually apologised for giving you the award, lol. It was a good book, though, even if it gave me a headache for weeks while I was trapped in Finckler’s mind and I wanted to be let out screaming.
As an aside, as someone who was pointlessly mutilated as a young infant in the 1960s due to some ill-judged ‘social planning’ decision, I do rather think the legacy of this latest AI-led error we are currently observing is not going to go away any time soon. If nothing else, perhaps Israel’s monumental strategic error is going to be a game changer, whichever way you look at things…
Shalom

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  Karen Jemmett

Thanks.

“So we all need to be careful about this sudden tendency to castigate those who’ve equipped themselves with a university degree as indoctrinated fools intent on our collective cultural annihilation.”

I think it’s a deserved reaction. And I say that as an academic, PhD in an extremely woke humanities area, having read all the right French theorists (or pretended to, if they were particularly obtuse). I drank the Kool Aid too, but the excesses of woke unravelled the illusion “gradually, then suddenly”. The misgivings began many years ago with the obtuse theory (“cmon, that was a page of totally meaningless waffle”), and blew up about four years ago with certain high-profile woke cr*p that made a mockery of my discipline. It’s a story for another time.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago
Reply to  Karen Jemmett

The massive expansion of education post 1960s has lowered standards. Up to 1920 one had to pass a paper in Greek to go up to Oxford. Consequently, education no longer can be correlated with intelligence only in duration spent in education. People I know who obtained Ordinary Leaving Certificates in the 1940s are far more educated than many graduates.
The The Inquisition was full of educated people. Educated people in France caused The Terror after The Revolution; the Dean of Canterbury supported Stalin ,
Hewlett Johnson – Wikipedia
Three Nobel Prize winners ( 2 physics , 1 literature) supported Hitler, JGoebbels had a doctorate, M Heidegger supported Hitler and Sartre supported Mao.
Highly educated people have supported blood thirsty tyrants; they appear to worship power . As Orwell said ” I d not fear the dictatorship of the proletariat,only the intellectuals “.
Orwell put his trust in the common decency of the ordinary man because they do not like bullies or worship power. Intellectuals since the French Revolution ( Goebels was an intellectual and 14 % of the SD – intelligence branch of the SS had doctorates in Law ) have supported violence if it suits their purpose.
Ever since the 1960s, universities have banned people from speaking they dislike.
Enightenment values are largely Continental. In Britain we had Beef and Liberty( Wilkes ). J Bronowski said the Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions were our Enlightenment. The problem with intellectuals is they live in a world of ideas with little physical contact with reality. Newcomen, Brindley, A Darby,Watt etc, did far more for the poor than any intellectual. They literally created light. Brindley’s canals reduced price of coal by 75% and reduced humans dependence on labour by animals. They freed us from the reality that two bad harvests would cause mass hunger.

Dr E C
Dr E C
2 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I’ve come to the conclusion we need to make British university degrees more elite once again. I say this having lectured in the sector for 20 years, trying to ‘widen participation’ myself. Many of my current MA students can’t write as well as my 11 year old. Aiming to get 50% of the population into uni was never ever going to be a good idea. The money should be spent on making state & secondary education good for ALL. The combination of intellectual zealots as lecturers – outlined by Charles above – & not especially bright masses has led to what we’re witnessing today: cries like ‘queers for Palestine’, ‘Yemen yemen make us proud’ etc as the Houthis bring back slavery…

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  Dr E C

EC, so true. I’d add to your point from something I read by Yascha Mounk in the Spectator a few days ago, which I’ll riff on. The riff is that for mediocre uni students, a good strategy is to write revolutionary rants as essays. Indulgent leftist lecturers forgive all sins of logical incoherence, poor spelling and grammar, and the many other expectations of academic writing because “the student’s heart is in the right place”. This goes back to the reductio ad absurdum aspect of modern humanities, which is that it’s easier to (or even an expectation that you should) jump on the next ideological novelty which incrementally extends “radical thought”, and/or shout down something you don’t fully understand in the name of “critique”, than to thoughtfully deepen accumulated wisdom.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago
Reply to  Dr E C

It is difficult to prove a decline in standards outside of Maths, perhaps in languages. There used to be separate A Levels in Pure and Applied Maths which became Maths and Further Maths. There were also S Level Papers. In 1988, wWhen O Levels and CSEs were combined to form GSCEs standard were reduced by about a year.
Compare someone who obtained S Level in Pure Maths or Further Maths of pre 1988 and A Level Maths of today. The S Level is about two years in advance of present day Maths A Level. Someone whom a Maths Scholarship to Cambridge /Imperial of say pre 1980 is probably second year Maths degree standard today or very close to it.
Once the standard of maths declines so does all engineering, physics, chemistry and economics.
Compare French Ordinary Leaving Certificate of 1940s to todays GSCE.

Andrew F
Andrew F
2 months ago
Reply to  Dr E C

It was always obvious that you can not sent 50% of given cohort to university unless:
1) You lower standards of even STEM subjects.
2) create Mickey Mouse courses like gender studies or make basic nursing into degree.
That is because to graduate in serious academic subjects you need IQ of about 115 and it is statistically impossible for 50% of the cohort.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

“All that I would say to Israelis is, you must survive this.”
‘For Israel to have thrived in the face of a hostility with no end is remarkable.’ ?
Rather, this traumatic existential questioning suggests the Israel we know is going nowhere, and will survive even the annihilation of all its enemies. Don’t worry!

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Well, I like your optimism. But if it’s to survive and go nowhere, it will be by the hand of man, not God alone. We still need to engage in all aspects of defence.

Simon Binder
Simon Binder
2 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Telling Israel that it must survive is a really great idea. Except, if it actually gets to that point, I’m not sure how it will do so.

autodreams
autodreams
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

Everyone ignoring the elephant in the room …Islam. So much failure, bloodshed and carnage and they want another state.

Good luck with that !

Gordon Black
Gordon Black
2 months ago
Reply to  autodreams

The brutal barbarity of the Japanese empire was ended with a couple of ‘never again’ deterrents in 1945. The 1400 year brutal barbarity of the Islamic empire will only be likewise ended.

TERRY JESSOP
TERRY JESSOP
2 months ago
Reply to  Gordon Black

I agree with autodreams that the “elephant in the room” is Islam. [Perhaps it would be beneficial for more people to read Tom Holland’s “In The Shadow Of The Sword” to get a handle upon Islam].
But as a practical solution to the present impasse, it would be beneficial to press the Egyptians to allow the inhabitants of Gaza to pass into Egypt. And to press the rich oil sheiks to provide the funding.

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  TERRY JESSOP

Except that the Egyptians know something that the likes of Queers for Palestine don’t, which is that Palestinians are drenched in full bonkers Muslim Brotherhood hate-filled nuttery, and would rip Egyptian society apart. Arab states quietly step back from accommodating these people because they’re too dangerous. What will happen of course, is that dufus Western governments, pressured by our do-gooder elites, will lovingly accept them by the hundreds of thousands. We’ll be the ones to find out just how b*tsh*t they are, especially when they’re egged on by radical activists and left unconstrained by woke police.

(Ahh, UnHerd, what’s wrong this time?)

Andrew F
Andrew F
2 months ago
Reply to  TERRY JESSOP

I guess Egyptian must know something about Gazans that make them not keen on this idea?
Like in “why would you want millions of terrorists and their supporters in your country”?
Unfortunately Sadiq Khan and Hamza Useless will invite them here.

Faith Ham
Faith Ham
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

Israel had about two weeks to get the job done before its ficklest of fickle allies — America’s ruling class — lost interest and turned. I’m ashamed to call them leaders. As for your last sentence, read Bernard-Henri Levy’s predictions of the fallout should Israel lose this mortal war and if the world loses Israel.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-if-the-us-helps-hamas-win-schumer-biden-mideast-war-israel-gaza-1a6aa3c6?page=1

Obadiah B Long
Obadiah B Long
2 months ago
Reply to  Faith Ham

America’s woke ruling class won’t even fight to defend itself and Western Civilization. It actively participates in its own destruction. It would happily murder Israel to get on with its own suicide. It’s due to a combination of guilt, fear, and a fundamental misunderstanding of what implications their unbalanced values really carry.

Nicholas Taylor
Nicholas Taylor
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

Niall Ferguson has much to say about the ‘hellbent university educated’, at least in the ‘west’. Where else do many revolutions begin? An explosion has to be contained in order to run to completion.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

One cannot blame the anti-Israel tendencies of the ICJ on some university-educated Americans. It seems that 90 percent of all nations are now condemning Israel.
Apologists for Israel might do well to ask themselves what they have done wrong – like Gideon Levy is doing courageously every day. Listening to commentators who want to nuke Gaza out of existence will just harden the attitudes of those who consider Palestinians as inferior human beings.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago

They were born Jews ?
The West is ruled by the Davos crowd, but for how much longer is moot. Net Zero and the Climate Change myth is going to produce a revolution akin to the most violent in history IF it is pursued.

The UK Grid is allegedly (not by MSM) about 18 months away from demand exceeding capacity as the morons who rule us destroy coal plants and retire nuclear plants. Once the Grid starts to fail (particularly in the UK, tho they’ll fail elsewhere too) then ALL bets are off.

Supermarkets feed the UK (In 2007 the Independent printed an article about how the Supermarket database bases (VERY BIG DATA) led them to say the population (claimed to be 65 Million) had the appetite of 77-80 Million. Perhaps we wasted food spectacularly, BUT, IF we didn’t, and those figures are true. A failing Grid is going to mean massive food spoilage, emptying supermarket shelves AND with numbers as claimed, then hunger.

That is catastrophic, BUT it may be avoided when the morons who rule us realise it’s the Green Myths or Them that have to go. (I’d opt for both going).

Assuming that catastrophe is avoided, then the next issue is going to be Islam. IF Israel loses, then the West is next in line. Why? Because Islam taking on China, Russia or India isn’t going to work! They aren’t going to listen to the MSM and they won’t knock on their targets doors saying “get your women and children out before we bomb you in 2 hours or so”

So why do China, Russia etc condemn Israel? Because like the Ukraine is used by the West to try and bleed Russia white, then Israel is a useful stick to beat the US and the West with. Just waving that stick encourages the Woke to further undermine the West and take to the streets with our enemies.
So, the bad news is, the West is going to suffer a lot in the coming few years, the only question is, what from? Net Zero insanity, Islam, or both?
The other question is, once the morons who rule us realise what is required, will they be able to mobilise the natives they’ve abused and maligned to save them
Answers in the next ballot box perhaps?

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Ironically, hours after warning above, I watched this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR2pXzdNJmI
50 minutes in and Marc Faber describes the potential consequences on food/refrigeration IF say the New York grid went down.
Maybe we are wrong, BUT I lived through the UK 3 day week and power cuts. I was in Wales and we cooked breakfast on the old iron open fire range, and used candles with local shops etc to provide food.
Today I suspect even that old Welsh House is heated by Gas, has no open fire or range and relies on electricity to light/cook/refrigerate food which is obtained from a local supermarket. Perhaps the farms around may be still there, but the population has soared so even they may find it hard if Supermarket JIT fails.
Multi millions of UK citizens won’t be able to do that and rely on JIT supermarket deliveries in refrigerated trucks. Quite frankly it is frightening how close to the point of no return the UK is getting regarding Grid demand exceeding, by a large margin, Grid demand.
BOTH UK’s leading parties are committed to Net Zero. Gold/Silver may get you food on a black-market but good-luck getting your bit-coin out with no Grid!
Israel shouldn’t worry too much, Russia and China are ruled by hard, cruel men, BUT, they aren’t the fools our Western Leaders appear to be, AND realpolitik and Islam may ensure that in a Western Collapse, Russia and China turn out NOT to be so anti-Israel as anti-US.
One final point, the price of Gold as I post is £1844 an Oz Someone somewhere is buying a lot of the stuff OR else wants to but can’t find any. The answer to the question ‘Why?’ – might be worthy of an Unherd article.

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

The threat to western lifestyle is in as much danger from kids not wanting to work hard
And thanks to social media data, such as from Tik Tok and shopping site Temu, our enemies know all about our kids’ weaknesses and how to exploit them.

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago

Yes, you also have to account for the efficacy of “Pallywood” (the particular characteristics if Hamas propaganda). This has a major influence on each country’s MSM, and therefore the opinions of the populace. The main war is the propaganda war. The ground war is just for content generation. But, my initial point was that the elites, who control governance including foreign policy, are too prone to believing this propaganda. However you are right, the effect of Pallywood is not limited to Western countries.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/pallywood-ahli-hospital

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

George SOROS – one of the most rabid destroyers of society ever known – is a Jewish supporter of the “Palestinian cause”.
Many of the most vacuous followers of the university indoctrinated, and indeed the university indoctrinators, who conjured up/enforce the greatest insanities of the past 30-40 years are also very visibly well off, privileged Jews. Go figure.

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  Katalin Kish

There was an article in the same online Tablet Magazine a while ago (2002/early 2023) that tackled that very question, but I can’t recall either author or title.

Matt B
Matt B
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

1984 in Nir Am encapsulated the future: a barbed wire and watch tower-ringed farm of leftish residents with Gaza as one neighbour and Gen Ariel Sharon’s hometown the other. Tattooed survivors of Polish camps worked at times uneasily with Palestinians from the British built Beach Camp block houses. You could still visit, well ahead of the first intifada. A resident veteran of Entebbe at the kibbutz summed up the future. “We don’t know”. The action then was in Lebanon, but of Gaza few on either side of the Green Line expected much good. It is deeply tragic, and Iran will aim to keep it so, knowing that neither state sponsors nor their non-state actors will be hauled before the UN

Cantab Man
Cantab Man
2 months ago

A beautifully-written article that conveys a depth of emotion and thought that cannot be measured by a finite number of words.

Thank you, Mr Jacobson and Unherd.

RM Parker
RM Parker
2 months ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Agreed – an agonisingly magnificent essay. Thank you indeed, Mr. Jacobson. I wish people in Israel and the diaspora well, yet I’m fearful that the sleep of reason (in the west) is bringing forth monsters.

Mike MacCormack
Mike MacCormack
2 months ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Agreed. Maybe the only good thing about this past six months has been the astonishingly high quality of the many comments in the press – certainly the British press, I don’t read much foreign press – written by Jewish journalists. I’ve been missing Howard Jacobson’s more regular press columns for some years now, and it is truly sad to be catching up with him in these circumstances. Even the pop culture commentariat – people like Giles Coren in The Times – have been oustandingly thoughtful and it has been heartbreaking to see the bone-headed viciousness of Hamas supporters presented as if Hamas are the French resistance taking on the Nazis.

Andrew Wise
Andrew Wise
2 months ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Sorry, I found it a difficult article to read, the language over flowery obscuring the authors intent.
I found myself rereading paragraphs to understand if he was pro or anti any particular position.

A D Kent
A D Kent
2 months ago

This is not the Jews, this is not Netanyahu, this is Israel. The last six months are just a crystalisation of what they’ve been up to for 70 years.

They do what they do, lie about it, and do it again.

Scepticism of the claims of Israel (including those of rape made here) have to be seen in the context of this (very far from comprehensive) list of their falsehoods, not your tired ‘me too’ carpings.

2006 – Cluster munition slaughter in Lebanon – Israel lied.
2014 – The ‘boys on the beach’ – Israel lied.
2014 – Al Wafa Hospital bombing – Israel lied.
2018-19 – Sniper murders in the Grand March of Return – Israel lied.
2021 – Designation of 6 Palestinian human rights groups as terrorists – Israel lied (proved by CIA report).
2022 – Bombing of Jalaliya Refugee Camp (5 teenagers killed) – Israel lied.
2022 – Murder of US citizen Shireen Abu Akleh – Israel lied.
The murders of Muhammad al-Durrah (2000), Rachel Corrie (2003), James Miller (2003), Tom Hurndall (2004), Iain Hook – every time Israel lied.
Oh, and never forget the murder of 34 US sailors on the USS Liberty in 1967 – Israel lied, lied and lied again.

You can find links to proof of the facts behind some of the lies Jacobson claims have been made about Israel here.
https://scheerpost.com/2023/10/18/chris-hedges-israels-culture-of-deceit/

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
2 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

Don’t forget the atrocities inflicted on HM Forces between 1945-48.

And also, lest we forget, had Palestine NOT been conquered by General Allenby and the British Army from the Ottoman Turk in 1917, there would be NO Israel today.

Who are the ungrateful toads who downvoted this? As @ 20.24 GMT?

(* At a cost of about 17,000 casualties.)

harry storm
harry storm
2 months ago

What about the atrocity, no, moral obscenity of not letting holocaust survivors into British-controlled Palestine?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
2 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

They were obviously a menace, or do you deny that?

Dr E C
Dr E C
2 months ago

You are beyond the pale

marianna chambless
marianna chambless
2 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

It would have been an atrocity had something not been done for the holocaust survivors, e.g., reparations to them, but a more just solution than creating a Jewish state in Palestine would have been to force Germany to relinquish Bavaria as a homeland for those people who had been persecuted and murdered because of Germany’s aggression.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
2 months ago

If the town arabs had risen with the Hashemites in 1915 and taken Jerusalem there would no Israel. The Hashemites took Damascus with the help of T E Lawrence. There were more Jews fighting with Allenby than Arabs. Arabs had been selling land to Jewish settlers since the late 19th century. If the Arabs had risen with the Bulgars in the 1870s against Ottoman rule they would have a country similar to that prior to any Turkish conquest.
To quote Abba Eban.
The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. If the Palestinians had been led by someone of Abba Eban’s ability , Israel would be in a difficult position.

harry storm
harry storm
2 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

no mention of course of all the lies and atrocities the Arabs/Palestinians have inflicted on Jews/Israelis since the 1920s, of course. They far far outweigh your very selective list.

A D Kent
A D Kent
2 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

I provided a list – perhaps you could provide us with one of your own? Cross reference it with the Chris Hedges article I linked to first though.

marianna chambless
marianna chambless
2 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

Why not list those lies w dates and circumstances, so that the rest of us an be informed.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

I haven’t yet seen Jews cheering and photographing the semi-naked defiled body of a young girl. Nor, so far, has any Jew as far as I’m aware bombed a concert hall full of young girls*, as for Rotheram, Telford and Rochdale Zionism wasn’t a factor. Even Big Cyril wasn’t a Zionist (tho’ I can’t swear for sure), though he preferred boys.

Whatever hangups Christian and Jews have over women/girls isn’t a patch on Islam – even Trans ideology isn’t as obscene respecting women and girls.

I assume the 57 varieties of IRA were all NOT Jewish.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

I did hear a Zionist extremist though, on the BBC no less, saying how her and her friends would be eyeing up prime beachfront property along the Gazan coastline should they want to pick it up at a knockdown price

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Deflection and whataboutery worthy of a true state propagandist and Israeli apologist.

George K
George K
2 months ago

It was educating to hear Ilan Pappe ( anti-Zionist historian essentially expelled from Israel ) saying that he finds it easier to talk to Israeli nationalists than liberals. The former don’t dispute the reality of segregation and occupation unlike the latter. But they, of course, see it as the only possible way for Israel to exist. And they don’t care a bit about the Arabs, so don’t talk to them about injustice and downright crime they are supporting. It’s a jungle ( the word Ehud barak once used) out there, not a sentimental liberal paradise. If you don’t rule “them” with iron fist, you’re the victim. Simple as that. And it was all by design from the very beginning of Zionism ( see “righteous victims” by Benny morris). One state solution equals bloodshed, two state solution is humiliation for Palestinians and no safety improvement for Israel. The Zionist myth had a head start of about 25 years before Palestinian national myth started to emerge, now the question is which one expires first.

harry storm
harry storm
2 months ago
Reply to  George K

Quoting Ilan Pappe, the historian who said that facts don’t matter, doesn’t exactly support your ridiculous argument.

George K
George K
2 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

Yep, that’s the quality of discussion, suck it up ( I’m saying to myself)

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  George K

Islam is fighting everyone everywhere, we in the West just ignore it because, so far, they are only abusing young working class/in care white girls and they only blow up middle class young girls once every decade.
But once they’re powerful enough, then they’ll be more open about threatening school teachers with beheading for showing pictures of …. hmm maybe self-censorship is survival in the UK now? 😉

Phil Re
Phil Re
2 months ago

This is a false dichotomy:
“What are we seeing? Are the terrible scenes from Gaza the projections on a bloody screen of one brutal and clumsy man’s baffled obstinacy — the last days of a demented Roman Emperor — or do they show, as anti-Zionists would have it, indeed as anti-Zionists have had it ever since the Jewish longing to return to Zion gave itself a name and the anti-Zionists called it colonialism, that something is rotten in the soul of Israel?”

The correct answer is neither. Hamas must be destroyed as an organized fighting force. There is no alternative. That is the position Hamas and the international community have placed Israel in: eradicate the death cult, or wait for the death cult to grow back and destroy your country. The death cult cannot be allowed to prevail.

The international community has long been complicit in propping Hamas up, condoning its repression and human sacrifice, and criminalizing Israel’s self-defense. No one forced Hamas to attack when Israel withdrew in 2005, and no one forced the international community to make excuses for Hamas back then.

The Allies understood that Hitler had to be defeated. Israel’s allies have disgraced themselves by not doing more to support Israel’s just cause. That failure attests to the strength of the pro-Hamas pressure groups in the West, not to any moral weakness in Israel’s cause.

Israel is fighting for all of us who still believe in civilization, and we must all fight for Israel now in whatever way we can.

Juan P Lewis
Juan P Lewis
2 months ago
Reply to  Phil Re

The Arabs have stood with Israel this time, and they probably want Hamas destroyed even more than Israelis themselves. That’s the factor that nobody is computing when they nod their heads over another Guardian article.

The same happened in every war. The conversation has been about how they are losing, how they must show restraint, how they are the worst on earth. Then they win and most claims vanish and nobody remembers how wrong they were.

Dennis Roberts
Dennis Roberts
2 months ago
Reply to  Phil Re

Hamas won’t be destroyed by what Israel is doing. It is a terrorist organisation and is not influenced by the international community.

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
2 months ago
Reply to  Dennis Roberts

The Palestinian people are the only people who can destroy Hamas.

glyn harries
glyn harries
2 months ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

agreed, and it was idiotic of Israel to have historically given Hamas support, covert or otherwise, to undermine Fatah, who however corrupt and usless they have become, are prepared to work with Israel.

glyn harries
glyn harries
2 months ago
Reply to  Dennis Roberts

The sad truth is that the more Israel kills Palestinains in Gaza it’s legitimate attempt to penalise and or destroy Hamas for Oct 7th, the more it feels as if Hamas has won, that Hamas has maybe suceeded in it’s long term aim of de-legitamising Israel.

Phil Re
Phil Re
2 months ago
Reply to  glyn harries

Yes, that is how it feels now. But that will change if/when Hamas forces are defeated in Rafah. At that point, its lobby in the West will lose control of the narrative.

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  Dennis Roberts

No, Hamas won’t be destroyed. It and it’s Muslim Brotherhood forks and descendants will live on in the world, in the hearts of those who feed on hate, maybe forever. But it can be contained and suppressed. In that, it is like Islam everywhere. It erupts in violence when its adherents judge they have a chance to conquer. In most places, it can be kept in check, mostly, except for occasional maniacal attacks by its adherents. That’s the best Israel can hope for too. To achieve that though, Israel has to destroy the underground fortress, and as far as possible, continually disarm and apprehend its fanatical jihadists.

As to Hamas and the international community: Hamas is counting on its strategy of painting Israel as an amoral and unrestrained aggressor. That’s to weaken support for Israel. The more Hamas can nudge Arab and Western elites in that direction, the better for their siege of Israel. Ideally, Israel would be denied weapons and suffer economic and technology sanctions. That’s the dream. The vector for success in the West is the “decolonisation” crowd, because they have such a strong influence over Western governance, including the UN and the US Democratic party. You seemed to think I was suggesting some kind of pro-Israel activism, like maybe if we all write letters to the UN Director General or something. No. What I and perhaps Phil Re is suggesting, is to stop politely listening to Hamas drivel being repeated on campuses, in pro-Hamas street demonstrations, and — a problem for us who actually belong to professional-managerial or academic families — at the dinner table. Pro-Hamas activists don’t give a second thought to stridently ear-bashing everyone in range. And maybe we shouldn’t either — evil when good men stay silent, etc. As in so many things woke, we need to take a lead from gender critical women, the bravest people in our society. Wrest control back from the woke emotionalists and virtue seekers, so that simplistic dogmas of “decolonisation” don’t remain as the default for policy setting in international governance and foreign affairs bureaucracies, either in the UN or in national governments. That’s the cultural change in the West needed to foil Hamas’s vision of manipulating the West with their “dead bodies” propaganda.

Sorry for the long reply.

Dennis Roberts
Dennis Roberts
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian_S

No need to apologise, it’s good to see your reasoning and i agree with a lot of your points.

I’m sure you know how hard it can be to push back against the prevailing narrative, especially when it attacks you ethically and refuses to listen. The aspect of this article that made feel so sad was the way he feels everyone is attacking him and his community, when they aren’t. But I can see why he thinks like that, those attacks are very visible.

Perhaps I’m missing something, but i can’t help thinking the way to deal with those tunnels is to treat them in the same way an opponent in a medieval castle would be treated – let them sit in them whilst you protect as best you can against their excursions. Eventually they will have to give up.

It’s very difficult for Israel to take the blows without retaliating, I realise that. Especially a blow as horrendous as Oct 7. But, putting aside the misery and death the Palestinians are suffering, Israel’s retaliation is like food for Hamas and the critical international community. And what Israel is currently doing is like providing a 10 course feast, day after day, seemingly without an achievable objective. I think you know this, but it seems Netanyahu doesn’t.

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  Dennis Roberts

Thanks for the balanced reply. The original article, and so many commentators including ourselves, realise there’s no straightforward cost-free solution, and the situation is extremely dangerous.

Although Hamas deliberately meant to perpetrated atrocities so egregious that Israel would react, the first act in a particularly evil plot also involving the planned sacrifice of thousands of Palestinians, all for the glory of Allah, I can’t see what other realistic option Israel had. The problem really comes down to the Jewish psyche, formed from centuries of persecution. Yes, they could have turned the other cheek. Would the world have sympathy for them had they done that? Clearly, in the days after the attack but before the full Israeli response, we saw the answer: no, the elites were jubilant that Israel had been attacked — “oh please, more, more”, they yelled. Jews have learned they ultimately can only rely on themselves, and they’ve had enough of ogres set on wiping them out. Psyche is an important consideration when retrospectively looking at Israel’s military response.

Phil Re
Phil Re
2 months ago
Reply to  Dennis Roberts

The international community is Hamas’s lifeline. It calculated from the outset that international pressure would force Israel to lose yet again.

It was Obama who strong-armed Israel to keep Hamas in power in 2014, when its rule was faltering, because he was pursuing his realignment with Iran.

If Israel hangs tough and crushes Hamas’s remaining forces in Rafah, so that it’s no longer an organized fighting force, that will undercut Hamas’s support networks in the West.

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  Dennis Roberts

I’ve replied, UnHerd have held it back. Look out for it in a few hours I suppose.

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  Dennis Roberts

Duplicate

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  Dennis Roberts

Also duplicate.

Dr. G Marzanna
Dr. G Marzanna
2 months ago
Reply to  Phil Re

Well I fully agree with you that Hamas must be destroyed as an organised fighting force. The problem is that the ideas that drive Hamas will not be so easily destroyed. The other thing is that in order to really destroy Hamas you need to replace them with something that will actually nurture Palestinian people and give them hope because right now they really don’t have any
I’m not sure that the Netanyahu government has the capacity to fill the gap
It’s not so easy to destroy fundamentalist militants. Egypt is still fighting the Muslim brotherhood and Egypt will have done many atrocities. We hear about the ones against tourists, but they have done many atrocities against Christians. And of course other Muslims Egypt is totalitarian military state and even they haven’t managed to root out The brotherhood .

What the world needs is a really healthy dose of secularism. I have friends who were born and raised in Israel in secular communities that paid homage to Judaism’s religious history, but didn’t hold any candle for God-given right because of course, everybody thinks that their personal God has given them the right, and this creates all kinds of crap from crusades to what’s going on in Gaza right now.
a nice healthy dose of secularism wd do the trick and an Israeli government that wasn’t dependent on extreme right wing Religious parties would be wonderful.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
2 months ago
Reply to  Phil Re

The success of the Hamas incursion was due to over-reliance on the high tech wall and failure to adequately defend the area attacked . So destroying Hamas is not truly an existential issue as claimed because the inconvenient but necessary deployment of soldiers to prevent such an attack was always possible and still is .

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Fair point actually.

Phil Re
Phil Re
2 months ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

I respectfully disagree. Here’s why.
If Hamas survives, it will claim a grand victory, and that claim of victory will be a huge boon to its international support networks.
Those support networks will ensure that Hamas receives ample funding to begin rebuilding its infrastructure and launching fresh rocket attacks until the next major round of fighting, secure in the knowledge that the international community will once again ensure Hamas’s survival.
Israel won’t make the mistake of giving Gazans work permits again, so it will be pilloried and delegitimized for the unbearable conditions in Gaza, and the next inevitable eruption of violence will be treated as resistance to that unbearable oppression.
Israelis near Gaza will have to live under the shadow of Hamas’s attempt to launch another genocidal attack—in addition to living under the rocket fire—and they will have to wonder what surprise Hamas and Iran might be planning next time and when it might come.
I personally don’t see how a country could function under those conditions, and if enough Israelis no longer believe they have a future in their country, Hamas will have won.

Ian_S
Ian_S
2 months ago
Reply to  Phil Re

Very much a crucial point. Yes.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
2 months ago
Reply to  Phil Re

So you think the IDF should kill another 25k civilians ( which still wouldn’t defeat Hamas ) on the off chance of people on the Israeli side of the border getting a better night’s sleep

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

That aside, the main failure was the refusal to believe the women reservists manning that Hi Tech line – they repeatedly reported that Hamas was up to something.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
2 months ago
Reply to  Phil Re

Bibi supported and financed Hamas as an antidote against the PLO. As stupid as the US supporting the Taliban against the Russians.

Bill Bailey
Bill Bailey
2 months ago

The US/NATO is now supporting Nazis against the Russians. I’ve come to the conclusion the UK should travel the opposite path to Sweden. We should leave NATO, become neutral and take advantage of the historic links we forged with Empire and Trade.
And no we aren’t as hated across the globe as the Wokeratii and our MSM claim. Even the French smiled and laughed with us as we headed East. ONCE we spoke to them in French. And that only last month.

Jonathan Brown
Jonathan Brown
2 months ago
Reply to  Bill Bailey

Ah yes, Zelensky – leader of the Ukrainian Nazi Party…

A D Kent
A D Kent
2 months ago

I posted a little list of some of the more recent lies of Israel that give some of us reason to be sceptical of their October 7th claims, but it has disappeared. I’ll see if it comes back, but in the meantime I’d note regarding Jacobson’s ‘me too’ assertions about the October 7th rape claims – one of the main reasons some of us don’t automatically accept the claims of systematic rape and sexual abuse is that there haven’t been as many of those claims actually made as the systematic allegations would suggest. Beyond that, many of the alleged witnessed events don’t stand up to much scrutiny (see for example the Woman in The Black Dress claims which have been debunked by the family of the alleged victim).

Juan P Lewis
Juan P Lewis
2 months ago
Reply to  A D Kent

David Irving, is that you?

A D Kent
A D Kent
2 months ago
Reply to  Juan P Lewis

No. I’m just someone who has been paying attention for the last few decades.

Lancashire Lad