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'How can we not call for peace at Christmas?' (LATIFEH ABDELLATIF/Middle East Images/AFP via Getty Images)
Our carol service this year was unusually sombre. We gathered to hear once again the message of the angels, of the cry for the redemption of Israel, of peace on earth and goodwill to all. And we sang:
âBeneath the angel-strain have rolled,
Two thousand years of wrong;
And man, at war with man, hears not
The love-song that they bring; â
Oh hush the noise, ye men of strife,
And hear the angels sing!â
No one was unaware that the place we were singing about is now a place of war â of white phosphorus instead of Christmas lights, of terrified hostages hidden in dark tunnels, of starving civilians, where evil emanates from Hamas not Herod. We sang also of a little town called Bethlehem, âhow still we see thee lieâ. It felt both thoroughly disconnected from reality â and yet also disturbingly relevant. How can we not call for peace at Christmas? Or for a ceasefire, at least.
Having family over there, I know Israel as a place of ordinary life, a place like other places, domestic and everyday: a place of shopping and traffic jams, of offices and factories, of children making their way to school and parents thinking about what to cook for tea. Occasionally, I am so immersed in ordinary domestic life that it is sometimes just possible to forget that the names on the road signs are names that occur in my Bible. As a priest, it took me quite a long time to disaggregate the ordinariness of Israel from the sense of religious romance that I inevitably carried with me and attached to all these place names.
On one occasion we were navigating the way to a McDonaldâs via the 77 road to Nazareth â and there are a surprising number of McDonalds dotted around the Galilee these days as it happens. And many Christian pilgrims, there for the first time, and travelling around on their air-conditioned coaches, wince as they see them. They donât fit with the picture they have built up of the place in their prayers. Jesus didnât eat hamburgers; he travelled along this road on a donkey.
For many, Israel is the playground of their religious fantasies, a kind of theological Disneyland. And because of this fantasy, we ask Israel to play a role in our cultural imagination that we wouldnât expect of any other country. Where are the protests for one side to lay down its arms in Ethiopia or the Myanmar? Attacked again and again by neighbours absolutely and expressly dedicated to its elimination, with constant rocket and murderous terrorist attacks, Israel is expected to play the role of the suffering servant, the passive victim, the Jew who turns the other cheek. Particularly after the Holocaust, no one can expect that of Jews.
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SubscribeA good read. Unfortunately, I fear this article will just bring out the usual suspects eager to tear it down with their antisemitic diatribes.
I donât believe Iâve read a single comment on this site that I would class as antisemitic, which to me means attacking Jewish people solely due to their choice of religion. I have seen numerous comments that are critical of a countries (Israelâs) actions and policies, but thatâs not in itself antisemitic
Antisemitism is not “attacking Jewish people solely due to their choice of religion”. It is not necessarily about Judaism, but always about Jews.
So any criticism of the actions of a Jewish person is antisemitic, even if those criticisms are in no way related to their religion?
Criticism of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians is antisemitism even though nobody has mentioned the state religion in those criticisms?
Not necessarily.
Just correcting your definition of antisemitism, but it seems you remain uncorrected.
So what is your definition of antisemitism then? If itâs not persecuting Jewish people because of their chosen religion then what does it mean?
Being very vocal about the alleged crimes of the Jewish state, whilst having nothing to say about the far worse crimes happening within a few hundred miles, would be a good example of it. Does that help?
Which other state has killed 10,000 children in air strikes in the last two months? Iâll happily condemn their actions as well if you tell me
Read about ww2 and you will find out
Iâll assume youâre referring to Dresden there, however the two are chalk and cheese. The allies were attempting to knock out the Germans industrial output that was arming the front line, as well as knocking out communications and railway lines to prevent the mass movement of troops to help the Soviet advance. They had to do so with incredibly rudimentary technology compared to today, simply flying near the target and dropping bombs in the general vicinity. The Allies intel was also lacking as to how weak the Germans actually were at that point, and even now military historians are split on whether the destruction was necessary to the war effort.
Hamas on the other hand has no factories building armaments, no large numbers of troops to move via the railways and no front lines that need regular restocking. Israel also has laser guided missiles and their military is one of the best equipped in the world. Thereâs simply no need for them to be flattening entire neighbourhoods in the manner they have been doing
I thought Dresden suffered carpet bombing, a t*t-for-tat perhaps in response to the blitz. Something similar is happening in Ukraine, where are the marchers chanting their Russo-phobic slogans? The US indiscriminately napalmed Vietnam, some of us marched but we stopped when they stopped. It never stops for Israel and the Jewish diaspora and how can they feel safe when terrorists threaten to continue their savagery?
In wars accidents and crimes occur. Israeli soldiers shot men holding white flags not realising they were Israeli hostages, so we know such incidents happen in Gaza too. But unlike in Ukraine, Vietnam, Syria, Myanmar, etc. advance warnings were given.
How do you fight for your future and your lives against vicious enemies who hide amongst civilians to carry out their attacks without harming others? What are Israel’s options?
Not dresden particularly, all of germany including berlin. Their parents chose war and many children were casualties. Hamas can surrender at any time
I fear you are wasting your time BB, they will never here you. Netanyahu is evil, his religion has nothing to do with it, he has always wanted to flatten Gaza and Palestinians.
This could very well be propaganda. it comes from within Hamas. Unfortunately the BBC quote what the say without seeking a statement from Israel or attempting impartiality.
We also donât know how many young teenage boys got killed, who are part of Hamas
Netenyahu is not targeting young men. He has decided to target where young men come from,future young men,ie wombs. He is out to eliminate Palestinian wombs. It’s as simple and horrific as that. You don’t believe me I know,but I’m right.
No you’re not.
Yes she is.
Theyâre the only figures we have. If they were that far inflated then the Israelis and Americans would be releasing their own as itâs not in their interests to see the high numbers killed
How can they?
Exactly. They also don’t differentiate between troops or civilians.
Look at the hospital propaganda. What to believe.
Billy Bob losing the debateâŠ. Come on. You are anti Jewish.
I donât believe being critical of Israeli policy towards the occupied territories and those living there makes me anti Jewish. If Iâm critical of the actions of Boko Haram in Africa (which I am) does that make me anti Islamic?
Lesley there are hundreds of miles of tunnels which are unreachable with bombs . Where do you think the Hamas leaders and the Hamas fighters are . Yes thatâs right , in the tunnels .
So who is being killed by the bombs ?
Wonder how many children were killed in Syria and Iraq? Problem is that Egypt didnât open the border to have a temporary refugee camp (by UN?) like Europe did in the Syrian/Iraq wars. There are also millions of Ukrainians living in neighbouring countries. Seems fellow Arabs give a toss about them.
Temporary ? So the refugees into Europe from Syria and Iraq have all gone home ??
10,000 children? Using Hamas as a source is a terrible look.
The deaths of those â10,000 childrenâ are the fault of Hamas, not Israel. Hamas, not Israel, brought war to Gaza and put those children in the line of fire. Blaming Israel for the deaths of Arab civilians whilst fighting Hamas is like blaming Britain for the deaths of German civilians whilst fighting Nazi Germany.
Hundreds of thousands of people have died in each of Yemen, Syria, Sudan and Afghanistan in the last 3 years. Have you been so vocal with your criticism of them?
That argument always strikes me as disingenuous. People focus on Israel disproportionately because the media do so. The media do so partly because a disproportionate number of journalists and commentators are Jewish and partly because our politicians do so. Our politicians do so â in the US primarily, and consequently in the rest of the West â because of the influence of the Jewish lobby and their Christian sympathisers. And then there’s the awkward fact that Israel occupies territory that is holy not just to Jews but also to Christians and Muslims. All of this is obvious and none of it applies to any other country. And finally there’s the fact that Israel holds itself out to be a modern, Western-style democracy, so people expect it to behave like one.
You have a point. We do not see many articles from Palestinian journalists
Except the BBC has more from Arab and Palestinian journalists than it does from Israeli journalists. I wonder why?
Because IDF have killed over 100 of them since October 7th.
Are you having us on? This is a territory governed by terrorists.
On could ask the same of you. Most of the articles I see are from Jewish writers not based in Israel who seem plainly biased.
We could have articles from Palestinian writer based in the UK for a bit of balance
So downvoters you are against balance reporting if it conflicts with your prejudices
Are there any? Or does our western media not publish them
Al Jazeera tends to publish more from the Palestinian viewpoint, but then many on here then accuse it of being a mouthpiece for terrorism for doing so
You clearly haven’t been watching the BBC News channels and their regular updates from the Gaza Health Ministry.
Perhaps there aren’t many. Nada Bashir on CNN stands out as one who is British. I find it annoying that she wears a hijab and at the same time speaks of the persecution of women in Iran for not wearing one!.
Check Al Jazeera, or the latest issue of the New Yorker on how an innocent American poet in Gaza was mistreated by the Israeli army.
Remember Iraq. Remember Kuwait. Remember Afghanistan. Remember what our own countries did in these places while some cheered. Then say Israel is wrong. The USA and UK to namr but 2 are complicit in killing those people we dont understand for nefarious purpose. I dont believe in God, but I do believe that nobody in the USA or UK or their allies should be throwing stones st Israel.
Indeed and remember Vietnam. Your point is valid.
In early 2000s a huge vast oilfield was located at Gaza. Thats why the Israeli establishment want it back.
They put the word out to all the international oil companies not to touch it,not to work with the Palestinians to develop it.
Not true.
And if youâll remember correctly there were hundreds of marches, protests and critical opinion of those conflicts in the countries you mentioned. So if the citizens there are happy to condemn their own governments actions why canât they also criticise Israelâs?
What did we do to Kuwait except liberate it from Saddam .
Overthrowing Saddam was a disaster and long term encouraged by Israel
And it so obviously doesnt. It is as far removed from a civilised Western style society as China or Russia is.
Which Western democracy are you referring to? Switzerland? Certainly not the US. Western-style democracies are among the greatest killers of civilians in all of history.
As much suburban consumerism as you want but no real say in policy.
Ah, here we go – the old ‘Jews control the media and pull the strings of the West’ chestnut. Was waiting to see how long it would be until I heard it. You can dress it up however you like – as anti-imperialism, anti-Zionism, Palestinian sovereignty – the old-school antisemitism always seeps through the cracks.
Muslims have Mecca and Medina, the birth place of Mohamed and his place of rest. There is no Quranic claim to Jerusalem. The reference in Quran 17.1 mentions the âfarthest mosqueâ and in the context of the other content around it the implication is that the farthest mosque is in heaven, not Jerusalem.
Muslims should be satisfied with Mecca and Medina in which no other group has an interest. They should drop their insistence to also claim the holy place of the Jews and Christians. They do so, I feel, primarily out of spite. It was not as big a deal as it is now before the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
No, it doesn’t help at all. Reasonable people (including many Jews) are critical of the massacre of civilians currently taking place in Gaza at the behest of an extreme nationalist Israeli government. Those same people denounce Hamas and all that it stands for, as well as the brutality of the acts that took place on 7 November.
That does not make them anti-semitic.
Nobody of the âstop the Warâ lobby has any answers about how Israel could survive with the Hamas tunnels and Gazaâs murderous government. Should Israel just continue being a sitting duck, waiting every minute of the day to be terrorised by bombs and their people attacked daily. Who of the peace brigade runs around with placards, also stating âstop Hamasâ tunnels â, âstop bombing Israelâ , âbring back the hostagesâ. The opposite is true, many dance in the streets, delighted that Israel is getting bombed daily and âhad it comingâ on 7.10.
Recent interviews by a TV crew in Germany asked some of her new Muslim population, what they thought about Hamasâ attack. They all seemed delighted (in a country, who systematically killed 6 million Jews) and a young woman said, that she prepared a celebratory dinner for her family that very evening when Israelis got butchered, raped and kidnapped. This is what the Westen World opened their doors to, especially Germany. Obama at the time praised Merkel for opening Germanyâs borders to millions of Muslims migrants. In retirement she seems to be strangely quiet about her plan to make Germany more âcolourfulâ âŠ
The cease fire, which is demanded by the UN, EU and all peaceniks in the world right now, forget, that there was a cease fire in place, which got interrupted by Hamasâ killing spree.
You have entirely missed my point. You seem to be saying that because antisemitism is widespread (which I do not deny), any and all criticism of Israel’s actions must be classed as antisemitism.
This is not helpful to Israel’s cause. It is losing worldwide support through the indiscriminate bombing of civilians and obstruction of humanitarian aid.
I’ve said elsewhere in this thread that Israel is creating the next generation of terrorists, who will replace Hamas with an even deeper hatred of Jews and the Jewish state. At the moment Israel is its own worst enemy.
Antisemitism is persecution of Jews. It manifests against atheist Jews and Jews who who have adopted Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or whatever. It has nothing to do with their “chosen religion”.
Exackle
It is persecuting the Jewish people because of their race. Messianic Jews are also persecuted (although as Christianity is Jewish, that could have a religious basis).
You are very fixated on the idea of judaism as a ‘chosen religion’. Many Jewish people are not religious, but are victims of antisemitism just the same.
To me if youâre not religious then youâre not Jewish. Judaism is a religion, not a race. Iâve born and lived in Christian countries my entire life, but I donât believe it to be true so Iâd never class myself as a Christian as I believe that would be insulting to those that do go to Church
Oh Billy Bob… you just don’t seem to get it do you? Unlike Christians, Jews are an ethnoreligious group (also with distinct ethnicities inside of that ethnoreligious group, like the Sephardim, Ashkenazim, etc) due to thousands of years of persecution and isolation. The comparison is not the same. Please read up on Jewish identity before spewing your smug “to me…” nonsense. It’s great that you personally can discard ethnic Jews as non-Jewish if Judaism is not their “chosen religion” to fit your narrow view of antisemitism – very kind of you – but that doesn’t reflect the reality.
Try telling that to an antisemite!
Exactly.
Jews are ‘chosen’ as the race within which the messiah was born. Chosen does not mean favourite.
Zechariah 2:8. For thus said the Lord of hosts, after his glory sent me to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye: It sounds like they are favourites.
Se my comment above. Nazis didnât care about which religion the Jews had.
Look at the nazi race laws . Religion had very little to do with it .
There seems to be some disagreement on here about what constitutes antisemitism, so weâll put it to a vote.
Thumbs Up: Antisemitism is when somebody is critical of a a Jewish person solely because of their religion.
Thumbs Down: Antisemitism is when somebody is critical of a Jewish person, even if the criticism is in no way related to their religion.
Personally Iâve always believed it to be the thumbs up option.
It is fair to say you have zero understanding of what antisemitism is. It is anti Jewish racism pure and simple and has no relation to how religious someone is. That is the whole point of antisemitism – it demonises Jews period. When Jews were rounded up for mass murder the Nazis did not check if they ate bacon or kept the Sabbath. The essence of antisemitism is that Jews are a malign force who are only out to enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else. This fundamental lie has been propagated and endured for over 2 millenia.
Antisemitism is hatred of Jews motivated by the fact that they are Jews
it is racism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_Don%27t_Count
Because he’s an anti-semite.
Then what is a Jew?
It is the race descended from Abraham.
Not the only “race”. Abraham, or Ibrahim as he is called by Muslims, is regarded as the father of the Arab people too.
That is because he also fathered Ishmael from whom the Arab people are descended.
A Jew is a member of the Jewish ethnic group. S/he may or may not observe the religion. Like the Romani, for example – you don’t have to travel in a painted caravan to be Romani. It’s what you’re born into.
Can you have a Jewish ethnic group, seeing as they complain about being largely nomadic for thousands of years?
Jews are followers of Judaism therefore Anti-Semitism is religious based. If a new becomes a Christian he is no longer a jew.
That was not how the nazis viewed it. Jewish converts like canonized saint Edith Stein were sent to the camps. Also, many Jews were atheists.
Iâm not going to base my worldview and opinions on those espoused by the Nazis personally
I suggest you base your worldview on Reality then.
It appears then that, according to you own personal definition of anti-semitism, the Nazis were not anti-semitic. Does this not strike you as a problem for your definition?
Well the vicar who wrote the above article is born a Jew despite being a Christian vicar . He is very aware of his family in Israel etc .
I thought it was his wife who is Jewish. I thought he got married after getting famous due to the Occupy movement camping outside St Paul’s and then met his wife.
Maybe you are right . I may have got it wrong . There was definitely a Jews for Jesus movement a while back .
He now defines himself as a conservative , of a very odd kind admittedly , but he was involved in letting St Paulâs be used by the anti -capitalists wasnât he .
Probably he says what he thinks will go down well with his audience , bit like Boris .
Actually thatâs not fair , on Boris .
We are both right . Wiki says his father was Jewish as well as his Israeli wife .
Rubbish.
I suspect that most anti-semites don’t actually know why they hate Jews, they’re just a convenient scapegoat.
Holding all Jews everywhere responsible for Israel’s actions is the most common current manifestation of antisemitism.
I agree that would be antisemitic to do so, but I donât think Iâve read any comment on here that says a Jewish person in Tottenham is in any way responsible for whatâs going on in Gaza
Antisemitism is racism more than about religion. Secular Jews also receive attacks.
100%
Their choice of religion didnât matter at all to the most antisemitic regime ever. Jewish converts to Christianity (like Edith Stein) were carted off to extermination with other persons of Jewish descent. So you are way off the mark.
Agreed. Denouncing a nation state like Israel doesnât make you Anti-Semitic. Thatâs ludicrous.
It is when you single out Israel. Have you denounced the killings of hundreds of thousands of people in Yemen, Syria and Sudan? Would you denounce the allies in WW2 for killing German and Japanese civilians?
Did you denounce Hamas?
What do you expect Israel to do? Suffer in silence? Flee the Middle East? Or most improbable of all, fight a âniceâ war with no civilian casualties?
You may need to read a bit more carefully then.
*I agree the charge is too often and too freely made. But sometimes it fits.
Jewishness is more than just a âchoice of religionâ.
Jews don’t ‘choose’ to be Jewish, they just are.
The “three Ds” or the “3D test” of antisemitism is a set of criteria formulated by Israeli human rights advocate and politician Natan Sharansky in order to distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from antisemitism. The three Ds stand for delegitimization, demonization, and double standards, each of which, according to the test, indicates antisemitism.The double standard is evident everywhere: criticizing Israel and only Israel on certain issues and ignoring similar situations by other countries. For ex., the BDS movement ignores the situation in Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran making it hypocritical and antisemitic. Criticizing Israel is not antisemitic; singling out Israel for international sanction out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East IS antisemitic.
Antisemitism is racism against those ethnically descended from Abraham and David as Jesus was.
Antisemitism is racism against the semitic people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_Don%27t_Count
Precisely. What does it take to understand why Hamas exists in the first place. Idiotic article
Agreed.
The whole article is repulsive genocide justification from start to finish.
iT wUz thE roMaNS wOt kiLLeD jeSUs aCKshULLy !
Cretinous dreck.
The exceptionalism of the ongoing verbal and written attacks on Israel is what makes one think criticism of Israel is antisemitic. No matter what happens elsewhere, where even a hundred times as many people (and children) are killed in war, as in Congo, Israel is always considered the worst of the lot. Muslims killing each other (including children) in much larger numbers, or engaging in much greater ethnic cleansing, no problem, not worth worrying about. Just the way of the world. China has killed a million Tibetans, since 1959, not to mention ethnic cleansing – no problem. Instead, Tibet is now considered part of China. No questions asked. UN resolutions against Israel are always multiples greater than for any other country, than for all other countries combined, while cumulatively, millions are killed elsewhere. Why is that if not because Jews are seen as collectively worse, no matter what may justify their actions, than all the rest?
you are using accusations of antisemitism to shut down legitimate criticism of the Israeli govt illegal and murdurous campains against Palestinians. Shameful comment
I won’t discount the presence of that ancient brand of bigotry on these pages. But this article seems far more likely to inspire pre-emptive justifications for anything the State of Israel could ever possibly do, or close to it.
I don’t say that about your post, but I wonder: What leads you to call Mr. Fraser’s article a “good read”?
I thought it was dark-hearted and too keen on bloodshed, wholly undeserving of the label “Christmas Essay”.
It reminds us how the Holy Lands have always been a contentious region and that freedom and peace are easy to lose if not fought for. No-one wants bloodshed. October 7 was totally avoidable.
Ok, thanks for the clarification. Sincerely.
Scorched earth obliteration is avoidable too. For some who are not Hamas militants or supporters, being stranded in Gaza is not avoidable.
Yeah but what do you mean saying the Israelis must continue till Hamas is destroyed . Hamas is a political movement with an extreme Islamist ideology . The people who actually did the massacres in Israel will be snug and safe inside the tunnels . It will be anyone but them getting killed by the bombs and artillery shells . How is that going to make the Arabs in Gaza more inclined to make peace ?
You yourself are happy to see illegals with similar beliefs to Hamas settle in the UK . You admit you offer public conversions to Christianity to allow them to claim it would be too dangerous for them to go home . One Muslim who was given one of these passport conversions later tried to set off a bomb outside a Liverpool hospital . One of your boys ?
As for calling Tommy Robinson âa horrible little man â and gloating because the police mob handedly pepper sprayed him and carted him off from the pro -Israel demo , not very Christian was it.
Why do you hate him so much . He campaigned for the victims of the grooming gangs , teenage girls gang-raped by mainly married Muslim men in Rotherham ( and elsewhere) and whose suffering the MSM , local police and the political parties werenât interested in (for obvious reasons ) Eventually a few others began to catch up ( one admits he was shamed into action by Tommy Robinson)
But middle class liberals are pro – migrants and the victims of the grooming gangs , like Tommy Robinson, are from a background that many middle class people think of as racist . Why does it feel natural for you to have fellow feeling with people from a similar background to yourself in Israel who are under under threat , but when working class people feel the same desire to look after âtheir ownâ theyâre dismissed by you as horrible little men ?
If good faith Christians just tuned out of global affairs, you would have absolute catastrophe. Its bad now but there’s plenty of room to get worse. Christianity is the only concept capable of “inclusivity.” It’s clear that despite a constant claim to moral superiority, Materialists expect more out of Christians than they expect of themselves.
If you don’t want to celebrate Christmas and that’s your thing…Fine. But to act like the actual world oppressors are Christians is objectively ludicrous.
Thank you for calling out Materialism
The Christian Gospels make it perfectly clear Pontius Pilate crucified Jesus at the behest of the Pharisees. This fact is not raised in polite company. But let’s not turn all woke and proactively and performatively lie about it.
Statements of Fact are inherently oppressive
Which itself is an antisemitic trope. That the cabal of rabbis pulled the strings with the all-powerful Roman governor, thus absolving him of guilt and placing it on Jews for all eternity.
What on earth is antisemitic about that? It is just a record of the historical facts. Pilate, one of the most important men in the Roman Empire*, had been Prefect of Judea for about seven years before Christ appeared before him.
Faced with the possibility of an âexpensiveâ rebellion provoked by various Jewish religious nutters he made an entirely pragmatic decision to sacrifice Christ, but was honest enough to demonstrate that he thought him an innocent man.
Perhaps this is why the actual crucifixion was a remarkably humane affair by contemporary standards, even allowing for burial which was NOT the normal form.
Incidentally and I am sure you are aware, sources such as Josephus tells that contemporary Judea was a hotbed of fractious Jews, writhing under rather indulgent Roman control. Ultimately a generation later this would lead to the almost total destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple and the inevitable and apposite enslavement of many of the population.
If you havenât seen it, the 1977 Monty Python film âThe Life Brianâ is remarkably amusing and accurate portrayal of first century Judea.
(* A hierarchy of about 30 Provincial Governors, 30 Legionary Commanders and 20 Procurators, Pilate being towards the bottom of this âeliteâ.)
Some truth in that CH, but the main reference to Pilateâs supposed belief JC innocent is in Luke. And Gospel of Luke written in Rome just after Jewish uprising c66AD and inevitably written for Roman sentiments.
What “j watson” said. The gospels were written many years after the events, for Roman readers and with the nascent Christian theology in mind. Josephus also needs to be taken with a grain of salt (not only on this subject) as he was similarly writing for Romans.
As for Monty Python, The Life of Brian is work of genius. All the more so if you are familiar with the stories of the Roman occupation in the Talmud.
Well at least we can agree on MPâs LoB!
For some light relief, Cleese et al on the Right to have Babies:
https://youtu.be/R79yYo2aOZs?si=fwf3jPV6UfW-sVwi
Most important men? Sure? I thought he was a rather low man on the Governor’s totem pole.
Well as I said about number 77 out of the 80 âtop dogsâ.
However a vital member of what the Romans so modestly called the âImmensa Romanae pacis maiestasâ.*
(* The boundless majesty of the Roman Peace.)
Charles I love your identification with the Roman elite . Are you a senator or even a consul in your own mind and when would you like to have lived ?
Iâd have been quite happy to follow the standard Equestrian career in say the early second century AD.
Pliny the younger , perhaps. Apparently his country house has been identified by his initials on the roof tiles
Which one? He had several as you probably know.
Incidentally Pliny had a Senatorial career, it was his uncle who had an Equestrian one.
So the Gospels are anti-semitic? Next you will be saying Jesus was a self-hating Jew.
It may have become an antisemitic trope but in itâs own terms (in the bible narrative ) it makes sense . Jesus is shown as embarrassing the Jewish rabbis . When they tried to trick him into encouraging people to ignore Jewish law by bringing before him the woman taken in adultery he neatly saves the woman while staying within the rules . âLet he who is without sin â etc ) Good story and you can see why the Jewish authorities were mad at him .
Yes it could be fiction .
On contrary. Pontius Pilate knew Jesus was innocent and he still had him crucified. Ergo, Pilate knew very well what he was doing and cannont be absolved.
Itâs cobblers of course.
The first Gospels were written v aware of need not to antagonise Roman rulers and around the time of Jewish uprising. Thus apportion blame for crucifixion accordingly. The Romans had no qualms at all in killing a poor Jewish preacher. And we often forget JC was Jewish.
Paul created Christianity not old JC.
Compared with other contemporary events such as the suicide of Nero, the subsequent Year of the Four Emperors and the Batavian Revolt, I doubt if any Romans seriously gave a âtossâ about what had been going on in some obscure little Province at the very end of the known (Roman) world.
Indeed. The disaster in Teutoberg forest (caused by a German trained in military warfare by the Romans, no less) was far more important to the Romans and the Roman empire.
Wasnât that in the time of Augustus ?
AD 9.
9AD. So about 20 odd years before. But the repercussions lasted decades.
Titus had a stonking triumph and the gold menorah and other stuff from the Temple are still to be seen carved on the inside walls of his Arch in Rome.
Coins with the legend Judaea Capta were produced right through the period of Vespasian and Titus . It was a big deal .
Yes it was deliberately made a âbig dealâ to divert attention from the fact that a rather obscure family, the âFlaviansâ had just highjacked the Imperial throne.
After all they were NOT not going to celebrate the short, sharp, Civil War they had just won, nor indeed the crushing of the very serious Batavian Revolt* which made the Judean Revolt look like an irrelevant sideshow.
The coins bearing the inscriptionâJudea Captaâ were part of this deceit in that the uninitiated might have thought Rome had conquered a new Province, rather that suppressed a revolt in an existing one. The Arch of Titus fulfilled the same function, as did the inscription on the Flavian Amphitheater (Colosseum) stating that it was âa gift to the Roman people from Vespasianâ and had been paid for from HIS share of the loot from the sack of Jerusalem.
So all in all a rather good example of Roman propaganda at its very best.
(* In which at least two Legions had been destroyed.)
But in that case the average Roman would have been impressed , if only because of the great propaganda .
As the late Bertrand Russell said âmost people would rather die than think and MOST doâ.
Paul was also Jewish, BTW.
And also had the inestimable good fortune to be a Roman Citizen, thus winning âfirst prizeâ in the âlottery of lifeâ that was the Roman world.
Yes, civis romanum sum, as I recall (probably incorrectly) from my schoolboy Latin days
Duplication due to slovenly censorship.
Civis ROMANUS sum.
(1,000 lines before tea!)
Oh dear! Well at least it shows I didn’t google it. I need to go back and decline the noun
Neither Paul nor JC ‘created’ christianity. God did.
Which one?
Well it wasn’t allah, that’s for sure !
Great reply, by the way.
Merry Christmas đ
And merry Christmas to you to đ
And man created god.
Lots of them, in fact. We’ve been very inventive in the deity department, sadly.
And in his own image!
Yes, a false one. When humans use their inherited lights to deny any intelligence outside their own heads, in an act of attempted self-deification.
Jesus–inspired by his Source–created the Teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, which are a foundational portion of Paul’s theology, despite the Romanized former persecutor’s love of abstract reflection and intricate Christology. There is power in some of Paul’s teachings too, but of a more institutional sort, as you point out. As a group his writings represent a popularization that is also watering down: a more institutionalized, less embodied message.
Of course Jesus himself was not a Christian. His offered prayer begins “Our Father” not “Dear me” nor “O my prophetic soul”.
Is Fraser really a priest ?
I’m beginning to wonder.
For a man of the cloth I find his arguments rather superficial and one-dimensional.
So once Hamas is defeated (whatever that means), some sort of peace will miraculously break out. Until perhaps it is broken by the next generation of Israel-hating terrorists created by the brutal Israeli reaction to this lot?
Quite correct. And on it goes. An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, as Gandhi said.
Is it all, perhaps, a Vast Plot by the arms merchants? Consider: Bibi used to fund Hamas. Everyone knows and knew that Israel would respond in the way that it has. Bibi was asleep on the watch at The Fence, in spite of multiple serious reports of exactly what Hamas was planning, which is at least suspicious. From a distance, it looks like Bibi and Hamas are in this together. Yes, a few tens of thousands of innocents must die, but business is good. For the international jihadists, they just gained a million new recruits, so that’s nice. It really does seem that somebody wants the mayhem to continue.
It’s about money and profit same as Ukraine. Any Ukranians celebrating Christmas now not in January should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves and of revealing themselves to the world to be American Shills
Exactly. As if even the total elimination of every Hamas militant and sympathizer could dry the source of all this hatred! How could that be so?
The Israeli commanders are operating too much from a place of punishment and vengeance now. This is not a circumspect or sustainable “strategy”.
And werenât the Jewish public then offered a vote to choose one criminal to be let go , and they chose another convicted man , despite Pilateâs string encouragement to choose Jesus . By acclamation .
Of course we should not take the historical accuracy of the bible on trust
Barabbas
While much of this Comments section disputes the exact meaning of antisemitism, and dissects the historical events leading up to the war today, the fact is that thousands of innocent people in Palestine and Israel have lost their lives. Both actual life itself and their homes, education, work, healthcare, family and friends. It is a massive tragedy – especially hard witnessing the slaughter of children – and itâs hard to see how it will get any better given the deep enmity and intransigence on both sides. The Russian-Ukraine war rumbles on, albeit no longer ânewsâ, as do other wars in Africa, the Middle East, AsiaâŠ. It is hard to have hope for humanity sometimes.
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to meanâneither more nor less.’
> especially hard witnessing the slaughter of children â and itâs hard to see how it will get any better
It’s been estimated that for every Hamaser killed, ten will now be lining up to take his place. What’s the count as of today? ca. 10,000 children murdered. I’d bet that right now there are a million Muslims dedicating themselves to jihad who might otherwise have preferred to live in peace.
But where are they? They don’t speak out because they’re afraid of other Muslims just like the rest of us!
And, right on cue, Gilesâ big boss Justin Welby trundles out exactly what he writes about.
Probably the most spot-on quote is âIf Israel were to lay down its arms there would be another massacre within hours. If Hamas were to surrender, the war would be over in days.â
If Hamas were to surrender tomorrow would Israel give the Palestinians their own state along the Green line borders?
I hear the parishioners at St Anneâs in Kew are less than impressed with their vicarâs attitude towards the Christian faith, and I canât say I blame them.
This article does seem more at home in a West Bank synagogue than in a local British parish at Christmas time I must say
Indeed. However, when I criticise the author I get lambasted, and you get upticks (including mine). What’s all that about?
Iâm amazed by the number of comments based on the presumption that the true villain in all this is The West and The Capitalist System. It is as irrational as the Islamist presumption that the world will reach perfect harmony through the subjugation of non-believers and destruction of any who dare to stand up their bullying.
Surprising how many (so called) men of religion fail to see the value of peace these days.
Giles Fraser has an identity problem, but has found an audience of right-wing Judeo-Christian bigots who make him feel better about himself by endorsing his “analyses”.
The different points of view being expressed make nonsense of your bigoted comment.
Fraser is the bigot, and also confused about his own identity. He needs to undertake therapy and in the meantime, put the keyboard away until he’s ready to write something worth reading.
Or, you could take that injunction unto yourself. Anyone who feels the need to identify with three forenames should beware of overuse of a keyboard.
One forename, and two middle names, but I hardly see it as relevant.
That doesn’t surprise me, since relevance doesn’t appear to.be your strong point; and not just on this particular matter. It seems you have no qualms in applying epithets to others.
I’ve taken Giles Fraser to task on occasion, but never with bigoted language as you choose to do.
What bigoted language? That he has an identity crisis?
Why donât you post under your own name and take ownership. I could say that for many others though.
Peace takes two to tango. Peace will only reign when the World is rid of evil people whose vision is death.
On both sides.
How sad that so much of the debate below is hair-splitting over the correct definition of antisemitism.
Now what about the authorâs main points: that there is no room for Hamas and that conflict is ended by realists with skin like a rhino.
Would Jesus have approved of what is happening in Gaza, and indeed Bethlehem, today?
I think not.
What would Muhammad say about October 7? Legions of his followers openly cheered that day. For some reason, you act as if it never occurred.
Alex, Jesus would most definitely not have approved of 7th October nor would any decent human being.
That does not justify what we are seeing elsewhere.
Israel must surely know the more you humiliate a population the more evil you sow for the future?
This cuts both ways. When your kids are taught to dehumanize those pesky Jews, itâs not going to work well.
Hamas is welcome to release the hostages and lay down its arms. Golda Meirâs words are as true today as when first uttered.
You can dress it up as you want but the military attacks in Gaza are not different to those in Ukraine, etc.
Itâs unpalatable to any decent person.
Hamas are a vile sect and their cause is being fed by the Israeli strategy.
Let’s not forget Israel’s support of Hamas as an alternative to the Palestinian authority of Mahmoud Abbas. Those that live by the sword tend to die by it.
This topic has been done to death.
Done to death is a somewhat inappropriate phrase, don’t you think?
And Jabotinsky’s? Remember him and his heirs before you try to take the moral high ground.
Israelis are damned if they do or damned if they don’t, respond with violence.
Reading right thru the comments I notice a shift. Yes, we have the usual howls of Antisemitism! Antisemitism! But it’s bankrupt. More and more people are refusing to be silenced by it. This is about Zionist crimes going on to this day and, yes, the mad-dog responses to it. I’m half Jewish. My dad was a Jew and he detested Zionism — as we currently have it, namely Zionism-via-theft. We don’t hear about the, yes, millions of Jews who believe in justice for the Palestinians. I saw a documentary a few days ago — former IDF special forces guy — no shrinking violet peacenik — in the WB defending Palestinians from murderous attacks by the Settlers — it’s not the Israel he was prepared to kill and die for.
Out of curiosity, do you hear from Muslims who condemn October 7 in particular and the likes of Hamas in general? If not, have you considered why that is?
On occasion, I see Arabs living in Israel and being quite happy about it. I never see the reverse for some reason. There were lots of scenes of Muslims openly cheering the attack and none condemning it. Even you see the reaction among Jews is not the same, yet you canât or wonât recognize the difference.
I know that the reaction among my Jewish friends and colleagues, and my (Jewish) sister-in-law and family, has been quite varied. But then why should all Jews react the same? My Israeli friends are quite pro-war, as are my British/Jewish friends who spent any time in Israel, especially to serve in the military. My British/Jewish friends with no experience of Israel have more nuanced views, and talk of a ceasefire and lasting, peaceful two-state solution.
I’m not Jewish but I do accept that Israel has a right to exist. But the international community needs to make sure that existence is not at the cost of others in the region. This incursion into Gaza, while a cathartic exercise in revenge and the destruction of the current Hamas fighters, is not an end to the problem. Moreover, the price being paid is falling very heavily on innocents. I don’t think Israel can be trusted to ensure its own safety or peace in the region until the Israeli government is changed for a less right-wing one. I suggest watching the film Israelism.
I love reading Giles Fraser. As an atheist, he’s my kind of man of the cloth. He’s realistic and witty, “theological Disneyland” nails it for Jerusalem! How he manages to navigate reality with the supernatural, on a daily basis, is beyond me, but apparently he does it. A miracle indeed.
Because he has studied the evidence objectively and with an open mind?
Perhaps it’s the political incompetence of your congregation which is ‘a threat to Israel’ (though I doubt they’ve got much sway with the UN) rather than the mostly secular festive period cherished by millions who couldn’t give a monkey’s about what’s happening in the Middle East.
Xmas is a capitalist holiday for the majority. The only thing worshipped is money. And the fact that “millions… cpuldnt give a monkey’s about what is happening in tbr Middle East” shows the lack of humanity that so many sing about just now. At least I know I am a heathen…
Oh boy Giles, have you ever gone over to the dark side. The same old “if HAMAS surrendered it would all be over”, “Palestinians turned down the Oslo offer”, etc.
The only asymmetry in this war is the one that pits a nuclear armed nation with one of the most powerful and technologically advanced militaries in the world, who are pretty much guaranteed an inexhaustible resupply of arms and materiel ad infinitum from the most powerful nation in the world versus some 25,000 terrorists who live in tunnels and receive highly contingent support from Iran.
The Israelis also have one of the most sophisticated PR machines in the world, one that has branded any and all criticism of the Netanyahu government or illegal settlers as anti-semitism, and HAMAS as an “existential threat” and mass slaughter of innocents as justified by the right to defend (a duty they failed in dismally on October 7). HAMAS would like to be an existential threat to Israel, but based on the asymmetry in military and technological sophistication there is little chance they ever will be. Unless of course the Netanyahu government once again chooses to ignore the intelligence services in order to focus on settler communities in the West Bank and the complicated project of keeping Bibi in power and out of jail.
And as for the Oslo Accords – well read ’em and weep for they in no way offered up anything close to a two state solution rather extremely limited and proscribed autonomy with a promise of looking at things again years on.
Thank you
Palestinians DID turn down the Oslo offer, as they have many others. And what if Hamas were to lay down arms? Since itâs never been done, maybe itâs worth a try. But that would mean the Jews live and Israel survives. Some folks canât have that.
Yes I acknowledged that the Palestinians turned down Oslo. They turned it down because it wasn’t a deal at all. It offered up some nugatory scraps of autonomy and kicked the real issues into the long grass. I am in no way suggesting that Israel should not exist, but that if a just solution to this problem is to happen the state of Israel must exist alongside an equally free and autonomous state of Palestine.
A thief steals $100 from you and then, to make it right, he suggests giving perhaps $10 back to you, on the condition that you acknowledge his right to keep the $90.
You also dismissed it as âthe same old.â When have the Arabs proposed a viable answer? Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan were formed in the same 20th century as Israel and collectively occupy several times the land mass. Yet itâs always the Jewish state that is expected to compromise or capitulate, never the Muslims. Speaking of asymmetrical.
BTW, the ‘peace process’ was so long and convoluted that I forget who agreed to what, when and where, but at one point Arafat had actually ‘signed’ — with Rabin — and, were it not for the murder of the latter (by a Jew) my understanding is that the deal would have gone thru.
Yup. What the apologists for Bibi never want to talk about is the ongoing occupation of the WB, with more land thefts and murders of Palestinians every day.
May I suggest removing your email address, so it’s not scraped
Thanks.
I agree that as a Christian, an Anglican and a lapsed Catholic it is common for many sermons to will a vague peace for all! If you will, a spiritual pablum.
As a parent and not a lapsed one, I donât wish to my children to know the evils of war. That said this situation is a tragedy that is in itself wrought by historys priorities and geopolitical fragmentation! If one considers ourselves Christian, we cannot throw Israel under the bus, especially as we are Jews ourselves, of a kind, and many of our ancestors have blood on our hands from those progroms, even Shakespeare has to answer for that. There is no easy answer, but the denigration of Palestine cannot be on our hands either. We have inherited an obligation to serve both peoples. Even fellow Arabs have used Palestinians as geopolitical cannon fodder. If we are to sincerely moralise, the actions must measure up. If the West is the best!? then both sides, require a Solution like that of King Solomon. Other wise keep our smug mouths shut and try not to add to the problem, in the most self aware way possible. Humility!
“If Israel were to lay down its arms, there would be another massacre within hours.”
Because that is what “the Christians” are demanding, right?
It’s tendentious dreck. Your point is one of a number I spotted throughout the article.
A bad faith framing from start to finish, in order to justify the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
If I was his bishop, I’d suspend him for teachings unworthy of the Gospel of Christ.
Less than 1% of gaza’s population has been killed. Nazis killed 66% of the jewish population of europe. The word genocide is used for marketing not as a fact
Trouble is, his boss is Welby.
Would this be one of the bishops trying to promote gay relationship blessings by the back door? One heretic condemning another?
If Israel were to resort to international law and a settlement based on international law there could finally be peace; Instead, israel resorts to crushing the palestinians by military might, war on children, women, civilians, destruction of their infrastructure, starvation, stealing of their land. What other country has resorted to such unprecedented callous, brutal murder of a population. Unprecedented nbumber of journalists targeted and killed – at least 60 killed by Israel, in order to hide its massacre and what is really going on in Gaza.
No clue what you are talking about. How does the âsettlement by international lawâ look like? What is âinternational lawâ anyway? Look who dictated the settlement in Europe after WWII. I give you a clue: the winners of that war. People who were âsettledâ in regions of Europe for centuries were uprooted and millions were killed on their way to safety. Does the UN still call these14 million people âRefugeesâ after 78 years? Did the WWII refugees plan terrorist attacks against the new owners of their land, towns and properties? HmmmâŠ
The Holocaust caused or was an opportunity for every non-Jew to stare unflinching into the darkness of the human soul. Maybe itâs time for Jews to do the same; this being a particularly Christian injunction.
Maybe itâs time for Hamas to abandon its desire to rid the world of Jews. Or are its members absolved from the part about staring into the darkness?
Both are true.
Two wrongs.
Hamas is the mirror.
Alex Lekas (if you ever get to read this): I am troubled that my two previous attempts fell short of addressing your valid and important question, therefore: I agree that Hamas is not absolved from staring into the abyss, nor I, you, the author of this essay or the Jews. That is my understanding of what follows from a close or intimate reading of the gospel of Christ (vide: Matthew 5:38-40 and 7:1-5, inter alia).
How charming. A societally sanctioned interpreter of Christâs message for the rest of us shamelessly shilling for war on behalf of an unabashedly racist and colonialist state. The Pharisees are alive and well in our midst.