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The Nato mindset leads to war The Ukraine conflict is empowering the Alliance

(Leonardo Munoz/VIEWpress)

(Leonardo Munoz/VIEWpress)


July 11, 2023   7 mins

As Nato members and their Asia-Pacific allies convene today to discuss the bloc’s expansion and future strategy, the Ukrainians are destined to be disappointed — insofar as membership is concerned at least. In an interview on Sunday, Biden said it was “premature” to allow them to join in the middle of a war. The reason is fairly obvious. As the former US Nato ambassador Ivo Daalder put it: “Bringing Ukraine into the alliance is tantamount to joining the war.” Their membership would risk a direct, potentially nuclear, conflict between Nato and Russia on European soil. “If the war is going on, then we’re all in war,” Biden said, referring to the alliance’s commitment to mutual defence. “We’re at war with Russia.”

Aside from a few Eastern Euripean and Baltic countries, this is a scenario no one is ready for — though the longer the war drags on, the greater its inevitability. Avoiding an all-out war hinges on Nato and Russia maintaining the fiction that the two sides aren’t already engaged in a proxy war — and one that Nato seems intent on escalating.

The United States did nothing to dispel this impression with its recent decision to provide cluster bombs to Ukraine, a weapon banned by a convention signed by more than 120 countries (including more than two-thirds of Nato members) due to its horrific track record of causing thousands of civilian casualties; in countries such as Laos, cluster bombs continue to maim and kill civilians, 50 years after the end of the Vietnam War. The US, Ukraine and Russia, which is also accused of having used cluster munitions in Ukraine, are among the few to have not signed the convention.

While Nato as a group is unlikely to endorse full Nato membership in Vilnius, it is however expected to reaffirm its commitment to providing long-term military assistance to Ukraine: Nato integration in all but name. In other words: more war. But perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised. As the saying goes, if all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail — and Nato has by far the world’s biggest hammer. Even though it encompasses just over 10% of the world’s population, it accounts for 55% of global military spending; it is by its very nature unable to conceive non-militaristic solutions to the ongoing conflict.

Yet if, as many have pointed out — and as even Fiona Hill, security advisor to several former US presidents, has admitted — no one can win this war and there is no alternative to a diplomatic solution to end the bloodshed, why are we continuing to rely on an organisation that evidently represents an obstacle to peace? Such questions are precisely the ones that will be carefully avoided during the two-day summit: has the Ukrainian-victory-at-all-costs strategy really benefited Ukraine? How do we bring an end to the war? And, most fundamentally, what is Nato for?

Nato presents itself as a purely “defensive alliance… working for peace, security and freedom”. The reality, however, is quite different. Aside from the fact that its most powerful member and de facto leader, the US, has bombed more countries than any other nation, Nato itself has a rather violent track record. In 1999, Nato began its 78-day illegal bombing campaign of Yugoslavia, the first act of aggression against a sovereign state committed in Europe since the Second World War. Many civilian targets were hit, including 48 hospitals, 70 schools, 18 kindergartens and 35 churches. Overall, hundreds of civilians were killed, including 81 children. Since then, Nato has been involved in several other conflicts, most notably Afghanistan and Libya. None had anything to do with defending its members from external aggression; in all these cases, Nato was quite clearly the aggressor.

And so it’s far from clear how exactly Nato is providing “security” to Europe. On the contrary, some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward, systematically ignoring Russia’s warnings over the years. This represented a gross violation of the principle that had inspired the entire European security architecture since the Seventies: the indivisibility of security — that is, the notion that the security of Nato states and the Soviet Union (subsequently Russia) was “inseparably linked to that of all the others”, and could not come at the expense of another state’s security. In other words, Nato played a crucial role in unravelling Europe’s security architecture and creating the conditions for the largest conflict in Europe since the Second World. How does this square with the notion that Nato is there to guarantee Europe’s peace and security — or that, today, it represents a “bulwark” against the very chaos that it helped create?

This is particularly disturbing given Nato’s stated intention of expanding its activity into the Indo-Pacific region, which will obviously antagonise China. The current Nato Secretary-General, Jens Stoltenberg, is a well-known anti-China hawk. In February, he drew parallels between Russia’s invasions of Ukraine and China, saying “we should not make the same mistake with China”, implying that Beijing should be strategically circumscribed by the West.

To this end, Nato is strengthening its cooperation with its partners in the Indo-Pacific region — Australia, Japan, the Republic of Korea and New Zealand — and is also hoping to open a Nato liaison office in Tokyo, the first of its kind in the region. The leaders of these four countries will also attend the Vilnius event to underscore their deepening relationship — as they did last year in Madrid. For the same reason, Germany will, for the first time, be sending troops to Australia as part of joint drills with some 30,000 service members from 12 other nations.

Beneath the surface, the creation of this “global Nato” is further evidence of the fact that the alliance’s strategy is increasingly indistinguishable from Washington’s — focused less on defence and more on great-power confrontation. In a scathing statement, Australia’s former prime minister Paul Keating labelled Stoltenberg a “supreme fool” for wanting to “export [Nato’s] malicious poison to Asia”. He wrote: “With all of Asia’s recent development amid its long and latent poverty, that promise would be compromised by having anything to do with the militarism of Europe — and militarism egged on by the United States… Stoltenberg conducts himself as an American agent more than he performs as a leader and spokesperson for European security.”

Moreover, Keating noted that Stoltenberg’s aggressive anti-China stance wasn’t shared by France, the largest EU state, which just a few days ago issued a statement insisting that Nato should remain geographically confined to the North Atlantic. Macron has been opposed to an increased Nato focus on China for years, arguing in 2021 that “Nato is a military organisation, the issue of our relationship with China isn’t just a military issue. Nato is an organisation that concerns the North Atlantic; China has little to do with the North Atlantic”.

But if Stoltenberg can so openly disregard the opinion of such an important member, who exactly does he represent? How does Nato actually work?

Nato’s principal decision-making body is the North Atlantic Council, which brings together representatives of each member country and “oversees the political and military process relating to security issues affecting the whole Alliance”. Formally, “all Nato decisions are made by consensus, after discussion and consultation among member countries”. In reality, however, neither the founding treaty nor any other Nato basic document prescribes a decision-making rule. This allows the alliance to present its decisions as unanimous and consensual even when they’re not. In theory, every member state has a de facto veto right, but in practice its use has been rare.

This relates to another of Nato’s myths: the equality of all member states. This may be formally true, but countries such as Albania and Montenegro are hardly on an equal footing with the US. As a recent study by the Swedish Defence Research Agency notes, “the US has been an uncontested leader of the Alliance and an informal grouping of big Allies has dominated many crucial Nato decisions”.

In fact, many believe that Nato has been one of the key institutions through which the US has exercised its control over post-war Western Europe. As the researchers Rajan Menon and William Ruger argue in a recent paper: “Nato’s continued existence ensures that Europe remains a strategic subordinate to the US, which explains why the US, though it has complained often about inequitable burden sharing, has never demanded a dramatic increase in European military power, let alone a Europe with an autonomous defence policy”. It is no coincidence, in this sense, that Nato’s revamping on the heels of the Russia-Ukraine conflict has led to a greater degree of European “vassalisation” to the US than ever before, according to the European Council on Foreign Relations.

In this sense, it is striking to note the deep ideological linkages between Nato and the European Union, another of the institutions through which Washington has historically exercised its influence over Europe. This has become embarrassingly apparent under the presidency of Ursula von der Leyen, dubbed “Europe’s American president” by Politico late last year. Over the years, von der Leyen has worked tirelessly to keep Brussels committed to Washington’s hawkish stance toward Russia and China — so it’s perfectly fitting that reports suggest she has been selected to take over as Nato’s next chief. 

Given von der Leyen’s track record, she’ll make Stoltenberg look competent in comparison. During her time as the Germany’s defence minister, von der Leyen was accused of allowing lucrative contracts worth millions of euros to be improperly handed out to consultants — and then of deleting all the message from two of her smartphones before returning them to the defence ministry. This seems to be common practice for von der Leyen. For the past two years, von der Leyen has systematically refused to release the text messages she exchanged, as president of the European Commission, with Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla, in which she personally negotiated the purchase of up to 1.8 billion doses of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine, worth a staggering €35 billion. Overall, we can probably expect Nato’s management under von der Leyen to be even less transparent — and more prone to America’s interests — than ever.

In the meantime, it is clear the Ukraine conflict has represented a boon for the US and for the transnational military-industrial interests represented by Nato. And that is in Washington’s every interest for the war to go on for as long as possible, and for Europe to be kept in a state of permanent instability. This is why, when it gathers today, we can expect Nato to continue pushing for an escalation of the conflict in Ukraine. Why risk ending the war when you could be cashing cheques — both financial and diplomatic — for months and even years to come?


Thomas Fazi is an UnHerd columnist and translator. His latest book is The Covid Consensus, co-authored with Toby Green.

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Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago

I keep hearing that if we allow Russia to take over even a little part of Ukraine this will encourage them and will inevitably lead to the Russians invading the whole of Europe. This is not logical. Russia does not want a war with NATO (in the same way as NATO does not want an all-out war with Russia), and any further expansion beyond Ukraine inevitably leads to a war with NATO as – with the exception of Moldova and Belorussia, all Ukraine’s neighbours are NATO members. By trying to “save” Ukraine we are committing economic suicide: our runaway inflation stems from higher energy prices which are the consequence of cutting off Russia. On the other hand, a few (powerful) people are making a lot of money from this war, both in Russia and in the West. The US has hugely multiplied its profits from LNG exports to Europe, and weapons manufacturers are making a killing as Western governments pay for Ukraine’s weapons. We normal people in the meantime are being fleeced every time we go to the supermarket or to fill up our cars, and our public services are being cut back time after time as our schools and hospitals fall into disarray and disrepair.
I know I’ll get called a Russian Bot, an enemy sympathiser, a fifth columnist, Putin-lover or whatnot but the truth of it is simply that I believe governments should do what is best for their own people, and at the moment I don’t think supporting Ukraine is in the interest of any normal people in any Western European country.

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Canon
G. Kaminskas
G. Kaminskas
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

You’re prediction about what you will be called is correct. You are a a Russian Bot, an enemy sympathiser, a fifth columnist, and a Putin-lover. 

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago
Reply to  G. Kaminskas

“You’re” is the abbreviated form of “You are” – hence the apostrophe to replace the missing “a”. I believe you meant “Your” which is the correct possessive pronoun. There, now you can add “grammar nazi” to the list.

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Grammar Commie!!

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Grammar Commie!!

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  G. Kaminskas

You don’t deserve the downvotes.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
10 months ago
Reply to  G. Kaminskas

And you are a tw*t, unless I missed the irony… 🙁

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
10 months ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Personal insults are the last resort of those who have no argument to put forward. You’d probably be more at home on Twitter,

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
10 months ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Personal insults are the last resort of those who have no argument to put forward. You’d probably be more at home on Twitter,

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago
Reply to  G. Kaminskas

“You’re” is the abbreviated form of “You are” – hence the apostrophe to replace the missing “a”. I believe you meant “Your” which is the correct possessive pronoun. There, now you can add “grammar nazi” to the list.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  G. Kaminskas

You don’t deserve the downvotes.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
10 months ago
Reply to  G. Kaminskas

And you are a tw*t, unless I missed the irony… 🙁

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

The mind boggles. 
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans, who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities. 
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine? 
The mind boggles. God help us all.

Arthur G
Arthur G
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Inflation and economic turmoil was caused by the ludicrous COVID lockdowns and the massive Gov’t spending they unleashed, and Europe’s insane net-zero commitment. A recession was to be expected.
All Europe needs to do to reverse the economic impact of the war is to re-open its nuclear power plants, and authorize fracking.

Last edited 10 months ago by Arthur G
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Amen to that.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

True, however the war instigated by The Bidens and CIA has also fuelled inflation.

Andrew McDonald
Andrew McDonald
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

When you say ‘re-open its nuclear power plants…’ – how does that work in the UK? I wonder also if ten years of the free money ‘QE’ pump, and the diversion of the consequent wealth upwards might have something to do with the current economic degringolade?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Are you American? We spell it “authorise”.

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
10 months ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

What a pompous comment from a supposedly ‘leftie’

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
10 months ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

What a pompous comment from a supposedly ‘leftie’

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Amen to that.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

True, however the war instigated by The Bidens and CIA has also fuelled inflation.

Andrew McDonald
Andrew McDonald
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

When you say ‘re-open its nuclear power plants…’ – how does that work in the UK? I wonder also if ten years of the free money ‘QE’ pump, and the diversion of the consequent wealth upwards might have something to do with the current economic degringolade?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Are you American? We spell it “authorise”.

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

A reasonable point to make. But I’d rather have a Russia on the other side of a buffer zone (aka Ukraine) than one right next to a NATO border. If someone in Russia freaks out at some point in the future, at least a buffer allows a breathing space in which to prevent armageddon.

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

Not a bad plan – Ukraine as a non-aligned buffer zone, totally neutral and not loyal to either Russia or NATO.

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Canon
Peter Lee
Peter Lee
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Not sure what one would do about the significant Russian population in Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea.

zee upītis
zee upītis
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

There is no “significant Russian population” in Eastern Ukraine unless you mean ones brought in after the occupation.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

Many of the ‘significant Russian population’ in those provinces have either decamped to Russia (or elsewhere) until it’s all over, or have been so horrified by the reality of what Russian rule of Ukraine actually looks like that they’re totally against it now.

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

Referenda with international observers perhaps?

zee upītis
zee upītis
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

There is no “significant Russian population” in Eastern Ukraine unless you mean ones brought in after the occupation.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

Many of the ‘significant Russian population’ in those provinces have either decamped to Russia (or elsewhere) until it’s all over, or have been so horrified by the reality of what Russian rule of Ukraine actually looks like that they’re totally against it now.

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

Referenda with international observers perhaps?

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Utter nonsense.
Russia started this war because it does not want independent, democratic Ukraine on its doorsteps.
In case it gives bad example to Russian slaves.
You need to explain why Sweden and Finland decided to join NATO?
Clearly because of peaceful intentions of Russia?

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

A chicken-or-egg situation?

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

A chicken-or-egg situation?

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

That was the point of the ‘guarantees’ given by America, Europe and Russia to Ukraine in 2008 – neutrality and no nuclear weapons in return for total respect for its independence and territorial integrity. Then Russia invaded and took Crimea, and the other guarantors did – precisely nothing! So signalling that further territorial grabs by Russia would also be ignored. Hence last year’s attempted annexation and the bloody mess we’re all having to support now.
Ukraine must be enabled to return its borders to pre-2022, preferably pre-2014. Russia AND NATO must pay for clearing up and rebuilding, and Ukraine must have guarantees with real commitment and consequences. ‘Membership’ is far less important: although it would give Ukraine a say in NATO, it would also require its commitment to defend all other NATO members, which is hardly the point at the moment.

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Not sure what one would do about the significant Russian population in Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Utter nonsense.
Russia started this war because it does not want independent, democratic Ukraine on its doorsteps.
In case it gives bad example to Russian slaves.
You need to explain why Sweden and Finland decided to join NATO?
Clearly because of peaceful intentions of Russia?

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

That was the point of the ‘guarantees’ given by America, Europe and Russia to Ukraine in 2008 – neutrality and no nuclear weapons in return for total respect for its independence and territorial integrity. Then Russia invaded and took Crimea, and the other guarantors did – precisely nothing! So signalling that further territorial grabs by Russia would also be ignored. Hence last year’s attempted annexation and the bloody mess we’re all having to support now.
Ukraine must be enabled to return its borders to pre-2022, preferably pre-2014. Russia AND NATO must pay for clearing up and rebuilding, and Ukraine must have guarantees with real commitment and consequences. ‘Membership’ is far less important: although it would give Ukraine a say in NATO, it would also require its commitment to defend all other NATO members, which is hardly the point at the moment.

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago
Reply to  Mangle Tangle

Not a bad plan – Ukraine as a non-aligned buffer zone, totally neutral and not loyal to either Russia or NATO.

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Canon
Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Well said, totally agree, The Americans are self centred bullies and always have been, ask the native Americans and Mexicans if you’re unsure…

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Do you mean all the Mexicans and other South Americans who invade USA southern border at the moment?
Can you tell us why don’t they try to emigrate to Russia or China or Cuba or Venezuela?

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Do you mean all the Mexicans and other South Americans who invade USA southern border at the moment?
Can you tell us why don’t they try to emigrate to Russia or China or Cuba or Venezuela?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Unpalatable, but undoubtedly the best comment of the day.*
.Thank you!

(*As @21:10 BST, 11, O7, 2023.)

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Usual arguments of appeasers.
It was the same in 1938 with Munich.
Chamberlain was bringing peace for eternity because Mr Hitler signed some paper.
Then by 1940 bombs were falling on London.
Appeasers like you will always argue that if we allow some other people to be killed, we will be safe.
Unfortunately history is against you.

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

The “history always repeats itself” argument is just as valid as the “history never repeats itself” argument. I stated that Russia will not invade a NATO country as it would not want a direct war with NATO. Comparing this with the arguments about Germany in the 1930s does not detract from its logic.

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

The “history always repeats itself” argument is just as valid as the “history never repeats itself” argument. I stated that Russia will not invade a NATO country as it would not want a direct war with NATO. Comparing this with the arguments about Germany in the 1930s does not detract from its logic.

G. Kaminskas
G. Kaminskas
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

You’re prediction about what you will be called is correct. You are a a Russian Bot, an enemy sympathiser, a fifth columnist, and a Putin-lover. 

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

The mind boggles. 
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans, who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities. 
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine? 
The mind boggles. God help us all.

Arthur G
Arthur G
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Inflation and economic turmoil was caused by the ludicrous COVID lockdowns and the massive Gov’t spending they unleashed, and Europe’s insane net-zero commitment. A recession was to be expected.
All Europe needs to do to reverse the economic impact of the war is to re-open its nuclear power plants, and authorize fracking.

Last edited 10 months ago by Arthur G
Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

A reasonable point to make. But I’d rather have a Russia on the other side of a buffer zone (aka Ukraine) than one right next to a NATO border. If someone in Russia freaks out at some point in the future, at least a buffer allows a breathing space in which to prevent armageddon.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Well said, totally agree, The Americans are self centred bullies and always have been, ask the native Americans and Mexicans if you’re unsure…

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Unpalatable, but undoubtedly the best comment of the day.*
.Thank you!

(*As @21:10 BST, 11, O7, 2023.)

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Canon

Usual arguments of appeasers.
It was the same in 1938 with Munich.
Chamberlain was bringing peace for eternity because Mr Hitler signed some paper.
Then by 1940 bombs were falling on London.
Appeasers like you will always argue that if we allow some other people to be killed, we will be safe.
Unfortunately history is against you.

Paul Canon
Paul Canon
10 months ago

I keep hearing that if we allow Russia to take over even a little part of Ukraine this will encourage them and will inevitably lead to the Russians invading the whole of Europe. This is not logical. Russia does not want a war with NATO (in the same way as NATO does not want an all-out war with Russia), and any further expansion beyond Ukraine inevitably leads to a war with NATO as – with the exception of Moldova and Belorussia, all Ukraine’s neighbours are NATO members. By trying to “save” Ukraine we are committing economic suicide: our runaway inflation stems from higher energy prices which are the consequence of cutting off Russia. On the other hand, a few (powerful) people are making a lot of money from this war, both in Russia and in the West. The US has hugely multiplied its profits from LNG exports to Europe, and weapons manufacturers are making a killing as Western governments pay for Ukraine’s weapons. We normal people in the meantime are being fleeced every time we go to the supermarket or to fill up our cars, and our public services are being cut back time after time as our schools and hospitals fall into disarray and disrepair.
I know I’ll get called a Russian Bot, an enemy sympathiser, a fifth columnist, Putin-lover or whatnot but the truth of it is simply that I believe governments should do what is best for their own people, and at the moment I don’t think supporting Ukraine is in the interest of any normal people in any Western European country.

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Canon
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago

Thomas Fazi sinks lower and lower in his endless absurd “blame the Americans for everything” ideology.

The Yugoslavia (actually Serbia) bombing – we can argue about whether NATO should have been deployed “out of area and scope” and we can also debate argue the effects t
on Russian and Chinese attitudes, but it is pretty egregious of Mr Fazi to completely ignore the context for the Belgrade bombing. This was to get the Serbian government to reach a political agreement short of their maximalist nationalist aspirations. There had been large scale ethnic cleansing of the Albanian population by the Serbian government, following their earlier attempted war of aggression, massacres and human rights abuses against the Muslim population etc (Srebenica).

Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans, at least for a while, won the geopolitical contest and not the totalitarian Marxist-Leninist party-states of the Soviet Union and China. These between them were responsible for tens of millions of deaths. This could well have happened – they already dominated Eurasia, why not also Latin America and Africa?

We got more liberal more democratic societies, or relatively limited in scope short term dictatorships, not the complete elimination of all forms of dissent, entire classes of people, and private property along with vast concentration camps and constant state monitoring the population.

South Korea rather than North Korea in other words. It ought to be a no-brainer

Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew Fisher
Ben Jones
Ben Jones
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Fazi’s juvenile analysis also completely ignores the growing split in US domestic politics in Ukraine. The Republican right are leery of involvement. It’s more nuanced than Fazi’s sixth form student analysis yet he continues to get published here.

Nick Faulks
Nick Faulks
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

The RAF dropped bombs on Christian civilians in Serbia in order to curry favour with oil producers in the Middle East. One of the most disgraceful episodes in our military history.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

Talking to those in the British Army involved in Bosnia, it is interesting to note how the Serbs warned them of the coming upsurge in Islamic guerrilla and insugency warfare and attack throughout the west.. and Africa… Of course, they were spot on.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
10 months ago

Oh F O Nicky you N*zi!! Grow up!

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
10 months ago

Oh F O Nicky you N*zi!! Grow up!

Arthur G
Arthur G
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

Who cares about the Serbs’ religion? They were launching aggressive and genocidal wars against their neighbors.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

What has civilian religion got to do with it, Serbia was bombed because they were committing genocide… the leadership’s behaviour was despicable!

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

Utter nonsense. Serbians wanted greater Serbia and were pursuing genocidal policy against not just Muslim but Croatian (remember Vukovar?).
Croatians are, mostly, Catholic Christians and Serbians are Orthodox.
I travelled widely in this part of the world even under Communism and Serbians are like “Little Russians”. They believe that they should dominate and occupy others people lands.
Hungarians who i really like, are unfortunately, similar.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

Talking to those in the British Army involved in Bosnia, it is interesting to note how the Serbs warned them of the coming upsurge in Islamic guerrilla and insugency warfare and attack throughout the west.. and Africa… Of course, they were spot on.

Arthur G
Arthur G
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

Who cares about the Serbs’ religion? They were launching aggressive and genocidal wars against their neighbors.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

What has civilian religion got to do with it, Serbia was bombed because they were committing genocide… the leadership’s behaviour was despicable!

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Nick Faulks

Utter nonsense. Serbians wanted greater Serbia and were pursuing genocidal policy against not just Muslim but Croatian (remember Vukovar?).
Croatians are, mostly, Catholic Christians and Serbians are Orthodox.
I travelled widely in this part of the world even under Communism and Serbians are like “Little Russians”. They believe that they should dominate and occupy others people lands.
Hungarians who i really like, are unfortunately, similar.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Thanks for dealing with the absolute child.

simon lamb
simon lamb
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Thank God for some sanity here – I thought Unherd was meant for informed, educated discussion and debate. What next – “How Trump is saving American Democracy”? I expect that’d bring covert Unherd-reading MAGA sympathisers out in force – just like Fazi’s Putin-excusing ramble seems to have done

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
10 months ago
Reply to  simon lamb

Well its beyond doubt that Biden and Democrats are not! In recent history, I’ve never come across such a bunch of totalitarians as are in power in the USA at the moment. So who is ‘saving American Democracy’?

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
10 months ago
Reply to  simon lamb

Well its beyond doubt that Biden and Democrats are not! In recent history, I’ve never come across such a bunch of totalitarians as are in power in the USA at the moment. So who is ‘saving American Democracy’?

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

“Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans”
You know, this article doesn’t mention the cold war at all. His complaint is about the shift in Nato that occurred starting in 1999 when it started to get used by the US in an offensive role. Nato is strictly a defensive pact.
As an American, I don’t see his pointing out the misuse of this alliance in a way that seems to enrich what President Eisenhower warned us of in the US military industrial complex. Which we could note that of all the billions of taxpayer dollars pledged to Ukraine most of it goes through the US defense industry. 
So it’s no surprise that it’s reported that 21 of the 46 signatories to a new open letter supporting Ukraine’s NATO bid “are associated with institutions with financial ties to the weapons industry.” That’s not noble or good in any sense, it’s about the money. Extending or expanding the war for thier own profits!
Anyway, back to the topic… what you’ve done Andrew is build what is called a “Straw man”. When you recast the other persons argument into something they’re not even saying, only you make it a weaker argument that you can knock down.
Then as you do so you insult him as “sinking lower” into “absurdity”… We have a cadre of fellow insulters following in your footsteps calling him a mere “student” not deserving publishing, questioning his sanity, claming he is uninformed, uneducated, Putin-excusing…
When actually none of that’s’ true. Another word for a ‘straw man” argument is a “lie”. The others that followed just seem angry, and really have nothing but personal insults. It seems clear to me that under Joe Biden, one of the most corrupt presidents ever, Washington has been making use of Europe against their own interests. For example those sanctions have hurt Europian economies more than they hurt Russia. That’s a fact that is provable. That’s not “Putin supporting”, those are just facts. Like as in, the truth. Do you know what the truth is, or like Bill Clinton are you still trying to determine what the meaning of “is” is?

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Will Longfield
Will Longfield
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

So myopic.
There was also large-scale ethnic cleansing and ethnic conflict in the Donbas, just as there was in Kosovo.
So it was OK for NATO to bomb Serbia in response to ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, but it’s NOT OK for Russia to bomb Ukraine in response to ethnic cleansing in Ukraine.
You can see why the rest of the world is siding with Russia . . .

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Will Longfield

You are talking utter rubbish.
There was Ukrainian independence referendum in 1991.
Over 83% of population of Donbas and Luhansk voted to be part of independent Ukraine.
Even Crimea voted 54% for that.
Just because small minority in these regions wanted to be part of Russia and started civil war with help of Russian to this end, does not mean they should be allowed to succeed.
You are either Russian stooge or in Lenins word “usefull idiot”.
Take your pick.

zee upītis
zee upītis
10 months ago
Reply to  Will Longfield

Ethnic cleansing, are you out of your mind? Eastern Ukraine including Mariupol, Severodonetsk, Bakhmut and other now occupied places were open to public until February 2022, you could have visited and seen the “cleansing” with your own eyes. Completely Russian-speaking cities that were actually retaken from the separatists with very little bloodshed and no destruction until Russia came to “liberate” them. Check the casualties stats for the last years in Donbass.. and finally stop operating with “facts” for which there’s even hardly any fabricated “evidence”, it’s just so cuz Putin says so, right? Meanwhile, any full transcript of Putin’s speeches will show you what he thinks and wants to do with the Ukrainian nation (which is both Ukrainian and Russian speaking). Bloody idiots, what has Unherd become..

Last edited 10 months ago by zee upītis
Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Will Longfield

You are talking utter rubbish.
There was Ukrainian independence referendum in 1991.
Over 83% of population of Donbas and Luhansk voted to be part of independent Ukraine.
Even Crimea voted 54% for that.
Just because small minority in these regions wanted to be part of Russia and started civil war with help of Russian to this end, does not mean they should be allowed to succeed.
You are either Russian stooge or in Lenins word “usefull idiot”.
Take your pick.

zee upītis
zee upītis
10 months ago
Reply to  Will Longfield

Ethnic cleansing, are you out of your mind? Eastern Ukraine including Mariupol, Severodonetsk, Bakhmut and other now occupied places were open to public until February 2022, you could have visited and seen the “cleansing” with your own eyes. Completely Russian-speaking cities that were actually retaken from the separatists with very little bloodshed and no destruction until Russia came to “liberate” them. Check the casualties stats for the last years in Donbass.. and finally stop operating with “facts” for which there’s even hardly any fabricated “evidence”, it’s just so cuz Putin says so, right? Meanwhile, any full transcript of Putin’s speeches will show you what he thinks and wants to do with the Ukrainian nation (which is both Ukrainian and Russian speaking). Bloody idiots, what has Unherd become..

Last edited 10 months ago by zee upītis
Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Exactly.
His usual complain is about “aggressive expansion of NATO” as if former Russian slaves needed any persuading to join NATO at first opportunity.
Even deluded nations like Sweden and Finland realised that the only realistic protection against genocidal Russian imperialism is membership of NATO.
His comments about pretended equivalence of NATO members is another “state the obvious”.
Of course USA is dominant partner because it provides great majority of NATO military capabilities.
Where would we be now if Russia appeasers like Germany and France were deciding policy.
His comments about China are just laughable.
Can he explain why world dominated by China is in the West interest?
Of course he can not.
So another moronic article by dictators stooge.
Fazi the Naz*

P Branagan
P Branagan
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Fisher might think he is a mature adult capable of independent thought. However he represents the most herded of UnHerd readers along with his fellow up-tickers.

A real believer – a mind formed by the propaganda spewed out daily in the MSM. All he is now capable of is regurgitation of guff spewed out by the warmongering Military Industrial Complex and NATO and the thugs in the 47th Brigade.

Ben Jones
Ben Jones
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Fazi’s juvenile analysis also completely ignores the growing split in US domestic politics in Ukraine. The Republican right are leery of involvement. It’s more nuanced than Fazi’s sixth form student analysis yet he continues to get published here.

Nick Faulks
Nick Faulks
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

The RAF dropped bombs on Christian civilians in Serbia in order to curry favour with oil producers in the Middle East. One of the most disgraceful episodes in our military history.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Thanks for dealing with the absolute child.

simon lamb
simon lamb
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Thank God for some sanity here – I thought Unherd was meant for informed, educated discussion and debate. What next – “How Trump is saving American Democracy”? I expect that’d bring covert Unherd-reading MAGA sympathisers out in force – just like Fazi’s Putin-excusing ramble seems to have done

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

“Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans”
You know, this article doesn’t mention the cold war at all. His complaint is about the shift in Nato that occurred starting in 1999 when it started to get used by the US in an offensive role. Nato is strictly a defensive pact.
As an American, I don’t see his pointing out the misuse of this alliance in a way that seems to enrich what President Eisenhower warned us of in the US military industrial complex. Which we could note that of all the billions of taxpayer dollars pledged to Ukraine most of it goes through the US defense industry. 
So it’s no surprise that it’s reported that 21 of the 46 signatories to a new open letter supporting Ukraine’s NATO bid “are associated with institutions with financial ties to the weapons industry.” That’s not noble or good in any sense, it’s about the money. Extending or expanding the war for thier own profits!
Anyway, back to the topic… what you’ve done Andrew is build what is called a “Straw man”. When you recast the other persons argument into something they’re not even saying, only you make it a weaker argument that you can knock down.
Then as you do so you insult him as “sinking lower” into “absurdity”… We have a cadre of fellow insulters following in your footsteps calling him a mere “student” not deserving publishing, questioning his sanity, claming he is uninformed, uneducated, Putin-excusing…
When actually none of that’s’ true. Another word for a ‘straw man” argument is a “lie”. The others that followed just seem angry, and really have nothing but personal insults. It seems clear to me that under Joe Biden, one of the most corrupt presidents ever, Washington has been making use of Europe against their own interests. For example those sanctions have hurt Europian economies more than they hurt Russia. That’s a fact that is provable. That’s not “Putin supporting”, those are just facts. Like as in, the truth. Do you know what the truth is, or like Bill Clinton are you still trying to determine what the meaning of “is” is?

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
Will Longfield
Will Longfield
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

So myopic.
There was also large-scale ethnic cleansing and ethnic conflict in the Donbas, just as there was in Kosovo.
So it was OK for NATO to bomb Serbia in response to ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, but it’s NOT OK for Russia to bomb Ukraine in response to ethnic cleansing in Ukraine.
You can see why the rest of the world is siding with Russia . . .

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Exactly.
His usual complain is about “aggressive expansion of NATO” as if former Russian slaves needed any persuading to join NATO at first opportunity.
Even deluded nations like Sweden and Finland realised that the only realistic protection against genocidal Russian imperialism is membership of NATO.
His comments about pretended equivalence of NATO members is another “state the obvious”.
Of course USA is dominant partner because it provides great majority of NATO military capabilities.
Where would we be now if Russia appeasers like Germany and France were deciding policy.
His comments about China are just laughable.
Can he explain why world dominated by China is in the West interest?
Of course he can not.
So another moronic article by dictators stooge.
Fazi the Naz*

P Branagan
P Branagan
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Fisher might think he is a mature adult capable of independent thought. However he represents the most herded of UnHerd readers along with his fellow up-tickers.

A real believer – a mind formed by the propaganda spewed out daily in the MSM. All he is now capable of is regurgitation of guff spewed out by the warmongering Military Industrial Complex and NATO and the thugs in the 47th Brigade.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
10 months ago

Thomas Fazi sinks lower and lower in his endless absurd “blame the Americans for everything” ideology.

The Yugoslavia (actually Serbia) bombing – we can argue about whether NATO should have been deployed “out of area and scope” and we can also debate argue the effects t
on Russian and Chinese attitudes, but it is pretty egregious of Mr Fazi to completely ignore the context for the Belgrade bombing. This was to get the Serbian government to reach a political agreement short of their maximalist nationalist aspirations. There had been large scale ethnic cleansing of the Albanian population by the Serbian government, following their earlier attempted war of aggression, massacres and human rights abuses against the Muslim population etc (Srebenica).

Fighting the Cold War could be ruthless and ugly, but Mr Fazi and other fashionable bien-pensant anti-American writers ought to be thankful the Americans, at least for a while, won the geopolitical contest and not the totalitarian Marxist-Leninist party-states of the Soviet Union and China. These between them were responsible for tens of millions of deaths. This could well have happened – they already dominated Eurasia, why not also Latin America and Africa?

We got more liberal more democratic societies, or relatively limited in scope short term dictatorships, not the complete elimination of all forms of dissent, entire classes of people, and private property along with vast concentration camps and constant state monitoring the population.

South Korea rather than North Korea in other words. It ought to be a no-brainer

Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew Fisher
David Harris
David Harris
10 months ago

“some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward”

Er, I think you’ll find that those countries asked to join to avoid Russian aggression. Ukraine didn’t and this is the result.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  David Harris

Simple really.
But not to Russian stooges and Lenin useful idiots on here and elsewhere.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  David Harris

Simple really.
But not to Russian stooges and Lenin useful idiots on here and elsewhere.

David Harris
David Harris
10 months ago

“some are convinced that Nato provoked Russia’s invasion of Ukraine by aggressively expanding eastward”

Er, I think you’ll find that those countries asked to join to avoid Russian aggression. Ukraine didn’t and this is the result.

Liam F
Liam F
10 months ago

Hilarious. Thomas , you can’t blame a dog for barking – militarism is what NATO is set up to do. And I for one am thankful for that.
George Orwell put it well “a pacifist only exists because someone else chose to fight on their behalf”

Tony Price
Tony Price
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam F

And as Napoleon said: “The World is not ruined by the wickedness of the wicked, but by the weakness of the good.”

Tony Price
Tony Price
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam F

And as Napoleon said: “The World is not ruined by the wickedness of the wicked, but by the weakness of the good.”

Liam F
Liam F
10 months ago

Hilarious. Thomas , you can’t blame a dog for barking – militarism is what NATO is set up to do. And I for one am thankful for that.
George Orwell put it well “a pacifist only exists because someone else chose to fight on their behalf”

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago

“War is peace, and peace is war.”
Fascinating insight into Fazi’s worship of force, and his unique definition that “war” can only be made by “the West.”
So, by definition, anything Russia does is “not war.” Putin’s 20-year build up of the Russian military, and NATO’s relative decline, is of no consequence. Neither is Putin’s invasion.
Because only NATO wages “war.”
Indeed, for Fazi–and Mearsheimer–the fates of individuals are of no consequence, just lofty thoughts about “Realism.”
What was “real,” however, about the “illegal” NATO war against Milosevic’s Serbia was that he had started ethnic cleansing of Kosovars from their own nation. Indeed, earlier, it was a horrific strike on a market in Sarajevo that made a very reluctant Bill Clinton intervene to stop the war in Bosnia. That was after several years of a brutal siege. The bombed out high-rises in both Bosnia and Ukraine look exactly the same.
And the only thing that is “real” about the present conflict is that Russia openly practices genocide against Ukraine and all Ukrainians. That has been Putin’s avowed aim since 2014: destroy Ukraine as a nation. To do so, his minions have to rape torture and kill as many Ukrainians as possible.
So for Fazi, “war” is only that which is inflicted on Russia by the West when Putin attacks other nations. “War” is when Russia is constrained by foolish western laws, like respect for borders and human life.
So, you see? Only NATO wages war!
Big Brother and Stalin look down on Fazi.
And smile approvingly…

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago

“War is peace, and peace is war.”
Fascinating insight into Fazi’s worship of force, and his unique definition that “war” can only be made by “the West.”
So, by definition, anything Russia does is “not war.” Putin’s 20-year build up of the Russian military, and NATO’s relative decline, is of no consequence. Neither is Putin’s invasion.
Because only NATO wages “war.”
Indeed, for Fazi–and Mearsheimer–the fates of individuals are of no consequence, just lofty thoughts about “Realism.”
What was “real,” however, about the “illegal” NATO war against Milosevic’s Serbia was that he had started ethnic cleansing of Kosovars from their own nation. Indeed, earlier, it was a horrific strike on a market in Sarajevo that made a very reluctant Bill Clinton intervene to stop the war in Bosnia. That was after several years of a brutal siege. The bombed out high-rises in both Bosnia and Ukraine look exactly the same.
And the only thing that is “real” about the present conflict is that Russia openly practices genocide against Ukraine and all Ukrainians. That has been Putin’s avowed aim since 2014: destroy Ukraine as a nation. To do so, his minions have to rape torture and kill as many Ukrainians as possible.
So for Fazi, “war” is only that which is inflicted on Russia by the West when Putin attacks other nations. “War” is when Russia is constrained by foolish western laws, like respect for borders and human life.
So, you see? Only NATO wages war!
Big Brother and Stalin look down on Fazi.
And smile approvingly…

Ben Jones
Ben Jones
10 months ago

That’s right Thomas, keep on blaming the defender and not the aggressor.

John Galt Was Correct
John Galt Was Correct
10 months ago
Reply to  Ben Jones

Are we still pretending that Ukraine itself didn’t spend 8 years shelling citizens in the East of the country? I don’t condone Russia or its actions, but the desperate one-sided perception in the West, particularly the UK vassal is a little strange and behind the curve.

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago

To be fair, it was their own country

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

An irritating little detail!!

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

An irritating little detail!!

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
10 months ago

Still not the place of Russia to invade another country

Richard Webster
Richard Webster
10 months ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

“As the saying goes, if all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail ”
Who used the hammer first, precisely because the whole world looks like his nail.Putrid Putin.To Thomas, i say….. Grow Up.

Richard Webster
Richard Webster
10 months ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

“As the saying goes, if all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail ”
Who used the hammer first, precisely because the whole world looks like his nail.Putrid Putin.To Thomas, i say….. Grow Up.

Arthur G
Arthur G
10 months ago

The only reason there was fighting in the Donbas was that Russia invaded in 2014. There was no “civil war” until Russian “little green men” (backed by artillery fire from across the border) invaded.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
10 months ago

You mean shelling citizens who were actively fighting against the Ukrainian army along with their Russian proxy friends?

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago

To be fair, it was their own country

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
10 months ago

Still not the place of Russia to invade another country

Arthur G
Arthur G
10 months ago

The only reason there was fighting in the Donbas was that Russia invaded in 2014. There was no “civil war” until Russian “little green men” (backed by artillery fire from across the border) invaded.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
10 months ago

You mean shelling citizens who were actively fighting against the Ukrainian army along with their Russian proxy friends?

John Galt Was Correct
John Galt Was Correct
10 months ago
Reply to  Ben Jones

Are we still pretending that Ukraine itself didn’t spend 8 years shelling citizens in the East of the country? I don’t condone Russia or its actions, but the desperate one-sided perception in the West, particularly the UK vassal is a little strange and behind the curve.

Ben Jones
Ben Jones
10 months ago

That’s right Thomas, keep on blaming the defender and not the aggressor.

Arthur G
Arthur G
10 months ago

No country can join NATO while its engaged in an active war, That’s part of the rules.

John Galt Was Correct
John Galt Was Correct
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

I’m unconvinced the rules will be adhered to.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
10 months ago

So NATO leaders should be beating a path to your door to persuade you of their bona fides?

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
10 months ago

So NATO leaders should be beating a path to your door to persuade you of their bona fides?

John Galt Was Correct
John Galt Was Correct
10 months ago
Reply to  Arthur G

I’m unconvinced the rules will be adhered to.

Arthur G
Arthur G
10 months ago

No country can join NATO while its engaged in an active war, That’s part of the rules.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
10 months ago

What is the point of this article? I fail to see what it is trying to say, except that Fazi doesn’t like NATO.
Also what peace will there be for Ukraine unless it can prove that it can at least hold Russia to a stalemate? There can be no negotiation unless you have power to back it up

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
10 months ago

What is the point of this article? I fail to see what it is trying to say, except that Fazi doesn’t like NATO.
Also what peace will there be for Ukraine unless it can prove that it can at least hold Russia to a stalemate? There can be no negotiation unless you have power to back it up

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago

As much as I despise the thoroughly Davos little Pepé Le Pew Macron, he has always had this Gallic centric sense of rebellion against the Anglo (Mainly US) controlled Nato. He was even balking at escalation until the (UK psyop, color revolution?) suspiciously timed Antifa like rebellion threated to take him down. He was also right, back when he declared Nato to be “brain dead”.
The self-willed all-powerful US, and its ultra-aggressive representatives in Europe were able to fill that brain dead corpse with a will it directed, and the corrupt squishy little EU governance were sold the modern Davos inspired transformation of Ukraine into the digital “eat ze bugs” nation where people would own nothing (Blackrock and other Western oligarchs will) and be miserable happy.
Of course, what has been behind all of this other than intense amounts of stupidity and incompetence is the real driving force. Hubris! They all simply (to our own peril) underestimated the Russians. Just like Hitler did. At every turn we have been told (lied to) that this or that would collapse them, that this or that magic weapon would be a “game changer”. That they were collapsing from the inside. That Putin had terminal cancer. That history in Ukraine only started in 2014 when a madman who was simultaneously using an incompetent, undersize, underpowered, ineffective military force was also going to run that joke of a military across all of Europe if he weren’t stopped at all costs in Ukraine.
Meanwhile like some sort of trick gun that shoots the person that aims at another and pulls the trigger, the EU nations have been murdering their own economies. Time has worked against everything Washington set out to do. No amount of blowing up pipelines or dams and blaming the Ork King fulfilled anything except to harm more of the world and the humans living in it.
Now they’re justifying cluster munitions, because as Joe Biden declared they’re “out of ammo”… Oh, ok… So this is another narrative collapse. We’ve been being lied to. We’ve been told that Ukraine was doing great, and the Russians were the ones running out… Only the Spring (now summer) offensive with all the Western super-hardware, and Western trained forces was going to be the latest “game changer”.
Lie to me once, shame on you, lie to me 8 to 10 more times, and I believe it, I must be a moron…. Or a paid federal agent online to spread lies. What all of this is, in the end is Stupidity merged with Hubris into something that defies all the laws of nature and truth. Which, that’s always not long for this world.
The world doesn’t operate on lies and stupidity. All of that wears out. When people figure out that everything is a lie, narcissists always have to move on to their next victims, and that is what our corrupt Western leaders and the controlled media does. They will simply move on.
The next victims appear to be Taiwanese, who sadly happen to have magically got a set of Pro-Washington agenda leaders over them until 2024, when they will be swept out of office by some leaders who don’t have the same goals. It’s amazing how all over the world people get in power that make all these commitments that don’t reflect the will of the vast majority of citizens who live under them…

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Indeed, the people who actually invade are never the victimizers.
Only the people who try to help defend them.
“Peace is war, and war is peace.”
Makes perfect sense to me.

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan
Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Yes, BBC.
Great example of honest, fearless journalism.
Like now with its presenter and before with covid and Jimmy Saville.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Yes, BBC.
Great example of honest, fearless journalism.
Like now with its presenter and before with covid and Jimmy Saville.

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan
S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Brilliant, thanks Steve. The Undead Corpse that is the American president was also put in place, along with his neocon hacks and Iraq War has-been advisors, to “rebuild” a anachronistic coalition that Trump the Maniac had dared to question. Trump’s neanderthalic sensibilities were right for once: NATO is but an Atlanticist pipe dream, built on the treasure, blood and at one time good-will of the American people, who mostly have no clue how corrupt and epically mismanaged it has always been.
Add to this that Undead Prez Biden is engaged in massive money laundering operations in Ukraine, and has been for years (hence the huge cover-up before the election) and something Just. Isn’t. Right. about all this.
I’m predicting nothing good in the next 5-10 years, for regular Americans, but most especially for the elites whom we all toil for. By then, it will be too late. But pox on them all.

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

I have read in many different settings and topics that ‘trump was right for once’. In fact he seems to have been right most the time. I have never read, not once, ‘trump was wrong’ even when it came to Covid and Intermectin.

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

I just cannot with Trump, man. He has no regard for democratic norms, and although right a few times, was dead wrong on the voting fraud stuff, which caused much chaos in America. Look, I despise Biden, I think he is a horrible person and probably the most corrupt president the U.S. has ever had, but we can certainly do better than him OR Trump.

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

I just cannot with Trump, man. He has no regard for democratic norms, and although right a few times, was dead wrong on the voting fraud stuff, which caused much chaos in America. Look, I despise Biden, I think he is a horrible person and probably the most corrupt president the U.S. has ever had, but we can certainly do better than him OR Trump.

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

I have read in many different settings and topics that ‘trump was right for once’. In fact he seems to have been right most the time. I have never read, not once, ‘trump was wrong’ even when it came to Covid and Intermectin.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Do you mean all the people of great democracies of China and Russia?
In the West you are free to go there and join Snowden.
You sound like you would really fit in.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You what?

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Indeed, the people who actually invade are never the victimizers.
Only the people who try to help defend them.
“Peace is war, and war is peace.”
Makes perfect sense to me.

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Brilliant, thanks Steve. The Undead Corpse that is the American president was also put in place, along with his neocon hacks and Iraq War has-been advisors, to “rebuild” a anachronistic coalition that Trump the Maniac had dared to question. Trump’s neanderthalic sensibilities were right for once: NATO is but an Atlanticist pipe dream, built on the treasure, blood and at one time good-will of the American people, who mostly have no clue how corrupt and epically mismanaged it has always been.
Add to this that Undead Prez Biden is engaged in massive money laundering operations in Ukraine, and has been for years (hence the huge cover-up before the election) and something Just. Isn’t. Right. about all this.
I’m predicting nothing good in the next 5-10 years, for regular Americans, but most especially for the elites whom we all toil for. By then, it will be too late. But pox on them all.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

Do you mean all the people of great democracies of China and Russia?
In the West you are free to go there and join Snowden.
You sound like you would really fit in.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve White

You what?

Steve White
Steve White
10 months ago

As much as I despise the thoroughly Davos little Pepé Le Pew Macron, he has always had this Gallic centric sense of rebellion against the Anglo (Mainly US) controlled Nato. He was even balking at escalation until the (UK psyop, color revolution?) suspiciously timed Antifa like rebellion threated to take him down. He was also right, back when he declared Nato to be “brain dead”.
The self-willed all-powerful US, and its ultra-aggressive representatives in Europe were able to fill that brain dead corpse with a will it directed, and the corrupt squishy little EU governance were sold the modern Davos inspired transformation of Ukraine into the digital “eat ze bugs” nation where people would own nothing (Blackrock and other Western oligarchs will) and be miserable happy.
Of course, what has been behind all of this other than intense amounts of stupidity and incompetence is the real driving force. Hubris! They all simply (to our own peril) underestimated the Russians. Just like Hitler did. At every turn we have been told (lied to) that this or that would collapse them, that this or that magic weapon would be a “game changer”. That they were collapsing from the inside. That Putin had terminal cancer. That history in Ukraine only started in 2014 when a madman who was simultaneously using an incompetent, undersize, underpowered, ineffective military force was also going to run that joke of a military across all of Europe if he weren’t stopped at all costs in Ukraine.
Meanwhile like some sort of trick gun that shoots the person that aims at another and pulls the trigger, the EU nations have been murdering their own economies. Time has worked against everything Washington set out to do. No amount of blowing up pipelines or dams and blaming the Ork King fulfilled anything except to harm more of the world and the humans living in it.
Now they’re justifying cluster munitions, because as Joe Biden declared they’re “out of ammo”… Oh, ok… So this is another narrative collapse. We’ve been being lied to. We’ve been told that Ukraine was doing great, and the Russians were the ones running out… Only the Spring (now summer) offensive with all the Western super-hardware, and Western trained forces was going to be the latest “game changer”.
Lie to me once, shame on you, lie to me 8 to 10 more times, and I believe it, I must be a moron…. Or a paid federal agent online to spread lies. What all of this is, in the end is Stupidity merged with Hubris into something that defies all the laws of nature and truth. Which, that’s always not long for this world.
The world doesn’t operate on lies and stupidity. All of that wears out. When people figure out that everything is a lie, narcissists always have to move on to their next victims, and that is what our corrupt Western leaders and the controlled media does. They will simply move on.
The next victims appear to be Taiwanese, who sadly happen to have magically got a set of Pro-Washington agenda leaders over them until 2024, when they will be swept out of office by some leaders who don’t have the same goals. It’s amazing how all over the world people get in power that make all these commitments that don’t reflect the will of the vast majority of citizens who live under them…

Last edited 10 months ago by Steve White
polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago

It would be a brave, or foolish, nation that trusts its defence to NATO. You can trust only in yourself. Ask a Pole.

Last edited 10 months ago by polidori redux
Paul Curtin
Paul Curtin
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

You’d be certified if you trust your defence to Ursula. Just ask the German army.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Curtin

Bring back the Wehrmacht, all is forgiven!

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago

Can they start going West first, please (idea based on family experience).
Food and wine much better….

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago

Can they start going West first, please (idea based on family experience).
Food and wine much better….

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Curtin

To be fair disarmament of Germany and appeasement of Russia were decision of Russian stooge, Angela Merkel.
If you recall women leaders around the world, including Merkel, were always used as examples of proper leadership.
Most of them are now gone with not exactly enhanced reputation.
Scottish smelly fish or NZ idiot anyone?

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Oh dear! Cherchez la femme? Because it was always so much better when all positions of power were reserved for men?
Oh, wait! Nope! There was appeasement, belligerence, miscalculation and penny-pinching when the men had sole charge too. Never mind; I’m sure you can imagine that there was always a woman behind these problems too.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Oh dear! Cherchez la femme? Because it was always so much better when all positions of power were reserved for men?
Oh, wait! Nope! There was appeasement, belligerence, miscalculation and penny-pinching when the men had sole charge too. Never mind; I’m sure you can imagine that there was always a woman behind these problems too.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Curtin

Bring back the Wehrmacht, all is forgiven!

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Curtin

To be fair disarmament of Germany and appeasement of Russia were decision of Russian stooge, Angela Merkel.
If you recall women leaders around the world, including Merkel, were always used as examples of proper leadership.
Most of them are now gone with not exactly enhanced reputation.
Scottish smelly fish or NZ idiot anyone?

Paul Curtin
Paul Curtin
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

You’d be certified if you trust your defence to Ursula. Just ask the German army.

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago

It would be a brave, or foolish, nation that trusts its defence to NATO. You can trust only in yourself. Ask a Pole.

Last edited 10 months ago by polidori redux
William Shaw
William Shaw
10 months ago

“the US, though it has complained often about inequitable burden sharing, has never demanded a dramatic increase in European military power”
I seem to remember Trump being pretty blunt and demanding.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Exactly, but idiots like Fazi were probably writing articles criticising bad Orange man.

Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew F
Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Exactly, but idiots like Fazi were probably writing articles criticising bad Orange man.

Last edited 10 months ago by Andrew F
William Shaw
William Shaw
10 months ago

“the US, though it has complained often about inequitable burden sharing, has never demanded a dramatic increase in European military power”
I seem to remember Trump being pretty blunt and demanding.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
10 months ago

Another excellent piece, Thomas. The people who accept your view are many, even though most have political views very different than yours. Most are straight-A classic – not populist – conservative and anti-communist. Many are influential, loyal Americans, from Ted Galen Carpenter at the Cato Institute to the late Richard Nixon and 90% of the true architects ofcUS Cold War policy. Opposed are the Democrat war hawks, which is ironic, and their cheer squads here who have no understanding of how this war really came about. They don’t seem to care. It’s all about righteous slaughter.

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago

Exactly. What’s mind-blowing to me, every single day, is that the “progressive” “peace” caucus in the Democrat Party, many candidates who ran on platforms opposed to our forever wars and wars of liberal interventionism, are ALL IN on this horror and slaughter. The whole lot of them, even The Squad. As someone who still loosely clings to some semblance of leftism (at the least the remanants of the Old Left, which has been shattered in America) this is an appalling state of affairs, which has created a vacuum, with no effective bulwark against the warmongering in the Democratic Party. Even Barbara Lee, the lone voice against the disastrous invasion of Afghanistan, is all in.
Many things at play here–but many people like me are utterly politically homeless, especially those of us who opposed the Covid mania, which was sponsored by the biodefense industrial complex here in America. We’ve found friendly alliances with libertarians and American Conservative magazine type conservatives. It’s a broad coalition of disenfranchised leftists who are mostly massing behind RFK Jr. or Cornel West at this point. But I think, and hope, that we will become a potent force again some day. The liberal-left in America has become completely compromised, and is only a synthetic, fake thing that is actually very corporate, warmongering and intensely opposed to different viewpoints, hence the censorship. Many of these people are viciously opposed to Fazi, who I actually believe is one of the real, true leftists remaining right now.

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago

Exactly. What’s mind-blowing to me, every single day, is that the “progressive” “peace” caucus in the Democrat Party, many candidates who ran on platforms opposed to our forever wars and wars of liberal interventionism, are ALL IN on this horror and slaughter. The whole lot of them, even The Squad. As someone who still loosely clings to some semblance of leftism (at the least the remanants of the Old Left, which has been shattered in America) this is an appalling state of affairs, which has created a vacuum, with no effective bulwark against the warmongering in the Democratic Party. Even Barbara Lee, the lone voice against the disastrous invasion of Afghanistan, is all in.
Many things at play here–but many people like me are utterly politically homeless, especially those of us who opposed the Covid mania, which was sponsored by the biodefense industrial complex here in America. We’ve found friendly alliances with libertarians and American Conservative magazine type conservatives. It’s a broad coalition of disenfranchised leftists who are mostly massing behind RFK Jr. or Cornel West at this point. But I think, and hope, that we will become a potent force again some day. The liberal-left in America has become completely compromised, and is only a synthetic, fake thing that is actually very corporate, warmongering and intensely opposed to different viewpoints, hence the censorship. Many of these people are viciously opposed to Fazi, who I actually believe is one of the real, true leftists remaining right now.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
10 months ago

Another excellent piece, Thomas. The people who accept your view are many, even though most have political views very different than yours. Most are straight-A classic – not populist – conservative and anti-communist. Many are influential, loyal Americans, from Ted Galen Carpenter at the Cato Institute to the late Richard Nixon and 90% of the true architects ofcUS Cold War policy. Opposed are the Democrat war hawks, which is ironic, and their cheer squads here who have no understanding of how this war really came about. They don’t seem to care. It’s all about righteous slaughter.

Matty D
Matty D
10 months ago

Russia launched an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, to deflect attention from growing unrest in Russia over things such as pensions.NATO bombed Serbia to stop it ethnically cleansing KosovarsNo ex Soviet Union country that joined NATO has been attacked by Russia. Most ex Soviet Union countries that didn’t join NATO have either been invaded (Georgia/ Ukraine) or subject to interference (Belarus, Kazakstan) or had Russia inspired civil wars (Moldvoa) or Russian supported wars (Armienia)NATO is a force for peace. Russia is a force for war.

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Matty D

Yes, and NATO is run by out of touch generals and Atlanticists in the U.S. who see this as a massive money laundering operation for the “defense” industry. Open your eyes, brother. The U.S’s stake in this is for and by the corrupt elites and their minions. And, sadly, the progressive left are the water carriers for this horror. The mind boggles.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

And 2 things can be true at the same time

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

And 2 things can be true at the same time

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Matty D

Yes, and NATO is run by out of touch generals and Atlanticists in the U.S. who see this as a massive money laundering operation for the “defense” industry. Open your eyes, brother. The U.S’s stake in this is for and by the corrupt elites and their minions. And, sadly, the progressive left are the water carriers for this horror. The mind boggles.

Matty D
Matty D
10 months ago

Russia launched an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, to deflect attention from growing unrest in Russia over things such as pensions.NATO bombed Serbia to stop it ethnically cleansing KosovarsNo ex Soviet Union country that joined NATO has been attacked by Russia. Most ex Soviet Union countries that didn’t join NATO have either been invaded (Georgia/ Ukraine) or subject to interference (Belarus, Kazakstan) or had Russia inspired civil wars (Moldvoa) or Russian supported wars (Armienia)NATO is a force for peace. Russia is a force for war.

Rachel Taylor
Rachel Taylor
10 months ago

The logic here is so poor, and so obviously poor, that I could not read beyond half way. It is a catalogue of invalid assumptions and illogical conclusions.
Perhaps the author could do better by simply saying what he wants to happen. Russia to defeat Ukraine, and Germany to resume buying gas and selling Mercedes? Is that the idea?

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Rachel Taylor

Yes.
Apart from small details like genocide of Ukrainians.
Disgusting Russia stooges on here either don’t know or don’t care that it was done to Ukrainians in the 30s and Poles in the 1940.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Rachel Taylor

Yes.
Apart from small details like genocide of Ukrainians.
Disgusting Russia stooges on here either don’t know or don’t care that it was done to Ukrainians in the 30s and Poles in the 1940.

Rachel Taylor
Rachel Taylor
10 months ago

The logic here is so poor, and so obviously poor, that I could not read beyond half way. It is a catalogue of invalid assumptions and illogical conclusions.
Perhaps the author could do better by simply saying what he wants to happen. Russia to defeat Ukraine, and Germany to resume buying gas and selling Mercedes? Is that the idea?

Michael Davis
Michael Davis
10 months ago

Oh dear

one decent article and you’re back to talking twaddle

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Michael Davis

Oh dear, when are the Brits going to man up and actually offer a stable security arrangement for Europe, instead of relying on your former colonies’ blood and treasure?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

Perhaps when ‘you’ lot stop supporting NORAID and other Irish terrorists gangs.

I would have thought after 9/11 as you call it, you would have learnt your lesson, but sadly, obviously NOT!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

Perhaps when ‘you’ lot stop supporting NORAID and other Irish terrorists gangs.

I would have thought after 9/11 as you call it, you would have learnt your lesson, but sadly, obviously NOT!

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Michael Davis

Oh dear, when are the Brits going to man up and actually offer a stable security arrangement for Europe, instead of relying on your former colonies’ blood and treasure?

Michael Davis
Michael Davis
10 months ago

Oh dear

one decent article and you’re back to talking twaddle

M F
M F
10 months ago

Note to Thomas Fazi and others: Having a bullying ultra-nationalist dictatorship such as the Putin regime as a neighbour clearly makes the attraction of membership of an organisation such as NATO obvious – or at least it should do. Presumably Finland and Sweden are now also guilty of provoking a legitimate Russian invasion by also becoming NATO members, their resistance to which would no doubt also be condemned as an “Obstacle to Peace”?
The only such “Obstacle to Peace” at present is Vladimir Putin’s indifference to human suffering in launching and doubling down on a war of conquest in order to gain control of a democratic neighbour who refused to do his bidding. It is also a little late for hand wringing over the use of cluster munitions in Ukraine after the Russians have been using these and virtually any other non-nuclear means since day one, and have mined and booby trapped occupied Ukrainian territory as a matter of course. Their use of indiscriminate rocket launched mining systems to slow the current Ukrainian counteroffensive being a perfect example.
Pompous denunciations of Jens Stoltenberg from Paul Keating are unsurprising as his world view, particularly where China and Russia are concerned, is seemingly stuck back in 1996, the last time he held office in Australia.
Mr Fazi is, however, is correct in questioning Ursula Von der Leyen’s suitability to be NATO’s next chief when the obvious choice was surely UK Minister of Defence and former army officer Ben Wallace, who has shown a clear headed and consistent approach to this war since the beginning, despite him (Mr. Fazi) shoehorning in yet another COVID conspiracy theory.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  M F

Please can we stop coming up with Ben Wallace as realistic candidate for Sec General of NATO?
That would require change of military structure, never mind being even more unrealistic after UK Brexit.
Uk general was always (if I recall) deputy commander of NATO.
Gen Secretary was from smaller European nation.
So even in this context Ursula bid for the post is bending the rules and should be vetoed by UK.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  M F

Please can we stop coming up with Ben Wallace as realistic candidate for Sec General of NATO?
That would require change of military structure, never mind being even more unrealistic after UK Brexit.
Uk general was always (if I recall) deputy commander of NATO.
Gen Secretary was from smaller European nation.
So even in this context Ursula bid for the post is bending the rules and should be vetoed by UK.

M F
M F
10 months ago

Note to Thomas Fazi and others: Having a bullying ultra-nationalist dictatorship such as the Putin regime as a neighbour clearly makes the attraction of membership of an organisation such as NATO obvious – or at least it should do. Presumably Finland and Sweden are now also guilty of provoking a legitimate Russian invasion by also becoming NATO members, their resistance to which would no doubt also be condemned as an “Obstacle to Peace”?
The only such “Obstacle to Peace” at present is Vladimir Putin’s indifference to human suffering in launching and doubling down on a war of conquest in order to gain control of a democratic neighbour who refused to do his bidding. It is also a little late for hand wringing over the use of cluster munitions in Ukraine after the Russians have been using these and virtually any other non-nuclear means since day one, and have mined and booby trapped occupied Ukrainian territory as a matter of course. Their use of indiscriminate rocket launched mining systems to slow the current Ukrainian counteroffensive being a perfect example.
Pompous denunciations of Jens Stoltenberg from Paul Keating are unsurprising as his world view, particularly where China and Russia are concerned, is seemingly stuck back in 1996, the last time he held office in Australia.
Mr Fazi is, however, is correct in questioning Ursula Von der Leyen’s suitability to be NATO’s next chief when the obvious choice was surely UK Minister of Defence and former army officer Ben Wallace, who has shown a clear headed and consistent approach to this war since the beginning, despite him (Mr. Fazi) shoehorning in yet another COVID conspiracy theory.

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago

The mind boggles. 
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans or our devastating economy and inflation, veterans who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities. 
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine? 
The mind boggles. God help us all.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

Save your hand wringing.
Nukes are only good to deter other nukes. Russia and the US have lost many wars in the past.
Not once has either seriously considered using nukes to stave off defeat.
Indeed, the only time when anything like that was when the paranoid Soviets idiotically concluded that the Able Archer exercise was cover for an all out US attack.
Even then, they didn’t launch a first strike.
They may be stupid, but not crazy.

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Oh well, nothing to worry about then. Your confidence in the resolve of leaders on both sides to forego the nuclear option is touching but wholly unrealistic. One of them probably doesn’t know the difference between the nuclear button and his alarm clock.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Rocky Martiano

It isn’t “resolve,” it’s fear for their own and their nation’s safety. Unless you think PUtin is crazy.
Do you?
And if the best you can do is to use that hoary meme about Joe’s senility, you’re really saying you can’t think of a coherent response.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  Rocky Martiano

It isn’t “resolve,” it’s fear for their own and their nation’s safety. Unless you think PUtin is crazy.
Do you?
And if the best you can do is to use that hoary meme about Joe’s senility, you’re really saying you can’t think of a coherent response.

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
10 months ago
Reply to  martin logan

Oh well, nothing to worry about then. Your confidence in the resolve of leaders on both sides to forego the nuclear option is touching but wholly unrealistic. One of them probably doesn’t know the difference between the nuclear button and his alarm clock.

martin logan
martin logan
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

Save your hand wringing.
Nukes are only good to deter other nukes. Russia and the US have lost many wars in the past.
Not once has either seriously considered using nukes to stave off defeat.
Indeed, the only time when anything like that was when the paranoid Soviets idiotically concluded that the Able Archer exercise was cover for an all out US attack.
Even then, they didn’t launch a first strike.
They may be stupid, but not crazy.

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago

The mind boggles. 
Green parties of Europe, the “progressive-left” in the U.S. are ALL IN on this war, which will by all inevitability end up in a hot war with nukes more than likely used somewhere down the road and a death maw for more young people and civilians. Indeed, this alliance, which is by all measures a massive sucking noise in the U.S., draining the blood and treasure from our people who have no stake in this war, is an anachronism that only really helps the globalists and the elites who care not about the Iraq and Afghanistan War veterans or our devastating economy and inflation, veterans who by the 1000s live in disease ridden tent cities ringing our once beautiful cities. 
Surely, as long as the “defense industry” gets a nice stock price infusion, all is well for these corrupt and amoral people?
Do these same Green Party members of Europe and the (fake)Left in the U.S. not know that the peace movement of the 1960s and 1970s also hinged on awareness of the environmental destruction of war–which is the abomination of humankind and should be avoided at all costs? Do they know that the Undead President in the United States that they are tacitly supporting is also deep in a massive money laundering operation in Ukraine? 
The mind boggles. God help us all.

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
10 months ago

NATO isn’t working for peace and freedom and there isn’t a western government doing it either. I don’t know anybody who wants a war, so why is our government so enthusiastic about supporting one in Ukraine? The obvious answer is that the military-industrial complex controls the governments.

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

Yes, this is indeed true. The military-industrial complex controls nearly EVERY facet of American life, honestly–including the insane Covid response.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

Bravo!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
10 months ago
Reply to  S Smith

Bravo!

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

Yes, this is indeed true. The military-industrial complex controls nearly EVERY facet of American life, honestly–including the insane Covid response.

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
10 months ago

NATO isn’t working for peace and freedom and there isn’t a western government doing it either. I don’t know anybody who wants a war, so why is our government so enthusiastic about supporting one in Ukraine? The obvious answer is that the military-industrial complex controls the governments.

Will Longfield
Will Longfield
10 months ago

I agree with most of what Mr. Fazi has written. America and the west’s moral grandstanding after their invasions and bombings of so many other countries is outrageous and is seen as such by the rest of the world.
It should be understood that Russia does NOT want conflict with the West,. The goal of the Putin/Medvedev presidencies has been internally-focused – to renew and unify Russia. The invasion (limited and small scale, initially) was launched after all other options had been exhausted. If Russia had not struck in February 2022, Ukraine would have struck in March 2022 and overrun the separatist Donbas republics.
The question is – what happens now? There is NO sign that Russia has any inclination to suddenly give up and withdraw. To the contrary, it is building its strength and massing forces while the Ukrainian army exhausts itself in a hopeless and bloody “counteroffensive”, cheered on by the West.
The answer is that Russia, as it stands, will swallow all of Ukraine and it will effectively cease to exist. What incentive does Russia have to leave any of it, even Galicia, independent, if it will immediately become a NATO member, with forward deployments of American troops on Russia’s borders?
NATO is signing Ukraine’s death warrant.

Last edited 10 months ago by Will Longfield
Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Will Longfield

So basically we should just stand back and allow genocide of whole nation?
Russia has track record here. Remember Holodomor or Katyn or genocide of Tatars in Crimea?
I am tired of posting here about results of Ukrainian independence referendum.
Over 83% in Donbass and Luhansk and 54% in Crimea.
There was never majority for this regions to be part of Russia.
You are just repeating Russian propaganda.
Obviously some people reply, referendums don’t matter, unless they are Russian ones after ethnic cleansing.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago
Reply to  Will Longfield

So basically we should just stand back and allow genocide of whole nation?
Russia has track record here. Remember Holodomor or Katyn or genocide of Tatars in Crimea?
I am tired of posting here about results of Ukrainian independence referendum.
Over 83% in Donbass and Luhansk and 54% in Crimea.
There was never majority for this regions to be part of Russia.
You are just repeating Russian propaganda.
Obviously some people reply, referendums don’t matter, unless they are Russian ones after ethnic cleansing.

Will Longfield
Will Longfield
10 months ago

I agree with most of what Mr. Fazi has written. America and the west’s moral grandstanding after their invasions and bombings of so many other countries is outrageous and is seen as such by the rest of the world.
It should be understood that Russia does NOT want conflict with the West,. The goal of the Putin/Medvedev presidencies has been internally-focused – to renew and unify Russia. The invasion (limited and small scale, initially) was launched after all other options had been exhausted. If Russia had not struck in February 2022, Ukraine would have struck in March 2022 and overrun the separatist Donbas republics.
The question is – what happens now? There is NO sign that Russia has any inclination to suddenly give up and withdraw. To the contrary, it is building its strength and massing forces while the Ukrainian army exhausts itself in a hopeless and bloody “counteroffensive”, cheered on by the West.
The answer is that Russia, as it stands, will swallow all of Ukraine and it will effectively cease to exist. What incentive does Russia have to leave any of it, even Galicia, independent, if it will immediately become a NATO member, with forward deployments of American troops on Russia’s borders?
NATO is signing Ukraine’s death warrant.

Last edited 10 months ago by Will Longfield
Sean G
Sean G
10 months ago

Thanks again, Thomas, for cutting through the crap with a well-cited analysis. As far as I have read, your detractors have failed to provide any clear counter-evidence.

Sean G
Sean G
10 months ago

Thanks again, Thomas, for cutting through the crap with a well-cited analysis. As far as I have read, your detractors have failed to provide any clear counter-evidence.

Andrew Holmes
Andrew Holmes
10 months ago

It delights me that Unherd publishes Mr Fazi. He states a perspective shared by many on the left. His clarity, for me, is the finest confirmation of the disingenuous selectivity of his arguments, and the comments point out the flaws.

Andrew Holmes
Andrew Holmes
10 months ago

It delights me that Unherd publishes Mr Fazi. He states a perspective shared by many on the left. His clarity, for me, is the finest confirmation of the disingenuous selectivity of his arguments, and the comments point out the flaws.

Paolo Canonica
Paolo Canonica
10 months ago

Deleted

Last edited 10 months ago by Paolo Canonica
Paolo Canonica
Paolo Canonica
10 months ago

Deleted

Last edited 10 months ago by Paolo Canonica
Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
10 months ago

Russia is an imperialist nation, which under Putin wants to return to the pre-1917 borders. The Poles, Finns and the Baltic states are supporting Ukraine because they know they are next.

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
10 months ago

Russia is an imperialist nation, which under Putin wants to return to the pre-1917 borders. The Poles, Finns and the Baltic states are supporting Ukraine because they know they are next.

Geoffrey Kolbe
Geoffrey Kolbe
10 months ago

“….How do we bring an end to the war?”
Having posed the question, Mr Fazi does not give an answer. As Mr Biden said, “We’re at war with Russia.” and we did not start this war. Russia has been waging a hybrid war against the West for decades in the belief that security is somehow a finite commodity and only by promoting insecurity in the West can Russia feel more secure.
The war now has a hot spot in Ukraine and may well escalate so that NATO becomes further embroiled. But what is the ‘off-ramp’ for such a scenario? Appeasing Russia by giving it half of Ukraine? As Winston Churchill said, “An appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile in the hope that he will be eaten last!”
Sorry Mr Fazi, but Russia started this war (yes, it did) and the only way Russia is going to stop the war is by giving it no alternative but to take it tanks home and call it a day. Then, we need a big enough stick to make sure Russia’s tanks sit rusting in storage somewhere in Siberia rather than bullying some smaller nation into submitting to Russia’s will.
That stick is called NATO.

Geoffrey Kolbe
Geoffrey Kolbe
10 months ago

“….How do we bring an end to the war?”
Having posed the question, Mr Fazi does not give an answer. As Mr Biden said, “We’re at war with Russia.” and we did not start this war. Russia has been waging a hybrid war against the West for decades in the belief that security is somehow a finite commodity and only by promoting insecurity in the West can Russia feel more secure.
The war now has a hot spot in Ukraine and may well escalate so that NATO becomes further embroiled. But what is the ‘off-ramp’ for such a scenario? Appeasing Russia by giving it half of Ukraine? As Winston Churchill said, “An appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile in the hope that he will be eaten last!”
Sorry Mr Fazi, but Russia started this war (yes, it did) and the only way Russia is going to stop the war is by giving it no alternative but to take it tanks home and call it a day. Then, we need a big enough stick to make sure Russia’s tanks sit rusting in storage somewhere in Siberia rather than bullying some smaller nation into submitting to Russia’s will.
That stick is called NATO.

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
10 months ago

Congratuations to Unherd for publishing this article. In my experience, the hardest area to get conservatives to do some serious thinking is in security matters. The attachment to alliances runs deep on the political Right, despite Thomas Jefferson’s wonderful mantra that might have defined conservatism in international affairs but didn’t:”Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none”. Ukraine is surely testament to the danger of “entangling alliances” in world affairs.Those alliances created the tension in Ukraine, they enable the current war to proceed, but they are utterly incapable of ending it.

Last edited 10 months ago by Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
10 months ago

Congratuations to Unherd for publishing this article. In my experience, the hardest area to get conservatives to do some serious thinking is in security matters. The attachment to alliances runs deep on the political Right, despite Thomas Jefferson’s wonderful mantra that might have defined conservatism in international affairs but didn’t:”Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none”. Ukraine is surely testament to the danger of “entangling alliances” in world affairs.Those alliances created the tension in Ukraine, they enable the current war to proceed, but they are utterly incapable of ending it.

Last edited 10 months ago by Vern Hughes
Ian McKinney
Ian McKinney
10 months ago

Tankies gonna tank.

Pleasantly surprised by the reaction in the comments though.

Ian McKinney
Ian McKinney
10 months ago

Tankies gonna tank.

Pleasantly surprised by the reaction in the comments though.

Richard Powell
Richard Powell
10 months ago

I haven’t bothered to read the article as just by reading a few random sentences I can see it’s crap. I can tell you what mindset leads to war, though. It’s the Putin mindset, when it isn’t sufficiently challenged or resisted, as it wasn’t until 2022. Thank God NATO is getting its act together at last. The sooner Ukraine joins the better.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
10 months ago
Reply to  Richard Powell

ahhh… but it is not: the vast majority of Nato countries have no recent warfare experience, and low military efficiency and discipline.. in short a useless rabble.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago

You are right.
But then people on here complain that America keeps fighting wars.
How can you have trained fighting force without fighting wars?
Maybe that is why Xi shut up about invading Taiwan (apart from other internal problems).

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

You are VSP–a Very Stupid Person. Of course you Brits want Americans to keep fighting forever wars. We’ve saved your ass now, what, twice, three times? Lazy f-ers the lot of you, who don’t want to even make your own security arrangements to protect yourselves.

S Smith
S Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew F

You are VSP–a Very Stupid Person. Of course you Brits want Americans to keep fighting forever wars. We’ve saved your ass now, what, twice, three times? Lazy f-ers the lot of you, who don’t want to even make your own security arrangements to protect yourselves.

Andrew F
Andrew F
10 months ago

You are right.
But then people on here complain that America keeps fighting wars.
How can you have trained fighting force without fighting wars?
Maybe that is why Xi shut up about invading Taiwan (apart from other internal problems).

Christopher Morgan
Christopher Morgan
10 months ago
Reply to  Richard Powell

I’m unsubscribing. I’m sick of this utter shite being emailed out to me all the time and the “herd’ of Russia sympatisers which pollute the comments.

Belinda Shaw
Belinda Shaw
10 months ago

Don’t unsubscribe, I too loathe Mr Fazi’s double – speak and lack of morality, BUT I want to be informed about the positions of such people who want to leave Ukrainians to die, or be serfs. How else can I be prepared o argue for the rejection of their views? Unherd is not a ̶