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Why should lesbians sleep with men? Sexual preference is now a moral crusade

Join the party (Birmingham Post and Mail Archive/Mirrorpix/Getty Images)

Join the party (Birmingham Post and Mail Archive/Mirrorpix/Getty Images)


May 5, 2023   5 mins

If you are a late millennial or early Gen Z-er, life is probably quite hard right now. Chances are that you can’t afford to buy your own home, or even go out socialising that much. Perhaps you can’t avoid feeling guilty either: for eating meat, failing to recycle, having immoral ancestors, using the wrong words. And you almost definitely can’t get off your phone. It’s not all bad news, though. No matter what your material or biological circumstances, there is at least one thing you definitely can do. You can become a lesbian.

Such is the message of Robyn Exton, CEO of lesbian dating app HER, mostly aimed at 20-to-30-somethings. Robyn is very enthusiastic about the cause of lesbianism for all. Last week, in honour of Lesbian Visibility Day, she wrote a combative statement on her business’s website, asserting that attempts to confine the category of lesbians to “only those assigned female at birth” involves a “twisted and erroneous” belief “about what being a lesbian can or cannot entail”. “The future of lesbian is trans”, she continued, before declaring: “we must all affirm trans and nonbinary lesbians… we must all become better informed and put in the work”. She concluded: “On Lesbian Visibility Day, let’s ensure that all lesbians are seen, celebrated, and embraced — regardless of their gender. There’s no such thing as a ‘real lesbian’.” Later, she sent out a message to all users to delete the HER app if they disagreed, and made a TikTok video to the same effect.

Based on an Ellen episode drawing on popular stereotypes about voracious lesbians stealing men’s wives, there’s a joke that whenever you recruit enough women to the sapphic cause, you win a toaster. Exton seems to think she can win a toaster for her preferred version of lesbianism by hurling insults at the unconvinced. If you fall into this category, she suggests, you are a “irrelevant has-been lez-bean”, a “fascist”, a “transphobic bigot full of hatred”, and a “sad, hateful clown”. As seduction techniques go, it’s a bold one.

By redrawing the maps of womanhood and manhood, so fundamental to human life in numerous ways, transactivists such as Exton have redrawn several other maps. One of these represents sexual orientations — heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual — once understood as involving distinctive patterns of attraction between the biological sexes by definition, but now no longer. Ignoring everything that we know about human sexuality, primary and secondary sex characteristics are now treated as the negligibly important physical wrapping for the irresistibly hot gender identities pulsing away within.

According to this demented sexual metaphysics, if a male identifies as a woman and is also attracted to women, he counts as a “trans lesbian” — which also means he is a lesbian, and you had better not object to him popping up in the app you just paid for. The head of Stonewall, Nancy Kelley, agrees; the difference between female and male “lesbians” is now treated by LGBTQ+ authority figures as no more important than the difference between Scottish and English ones.

Queer culture still allows you, a hapless female seeking females, the right to reject any given “trans lesbian” purely on individual grounds of preference or taste. Maybe you don’t like his politics, or shade of lipstick, or something. This is treated as a straightforward matter of consent. But woe betide you if you reject him on the grounds that he is the wrong sex, or otherwise indicate on your dating profile that you only want to have sex with females, accurately construed. In the latter case, you are likely to get banned from whatever queer app you are using — as you also would be for using the pronouns I just used, for the sake of clarity.

In theory, the map of sexual orientations should get redrawn for each orientation equally, but in practice it has been altered for lesbians most of all. Swiping through the apps and looking for love, you are now bound to come across photos of what are obviously adult human males, dressed extravagantly in florals and hairclips, adopting the sort of girlish head-tilts last seen on Shirley Temple in the Forties. “Putting in the work” to “affirm” these people, as Exton grimly urges lesbians to do, mostly involves dating and sleeping with them.

Many “trans lesbians” are autogynephiles, for whom the adoption of a lesbian identity can be added to a long list of fetishised pleasures about womanhood. To those who are not chronically naïve, there’s no mystery as to why fetishists would do this; but it is a mystery why so many lesbians, in the old-fashioned sense, seem delighted to collude with them. Why are they so keen to try to bully and shame female peers into sleeping with males with the right pronouns? The number of people who identify as “LGBTQ+ women” vastly outnumbers that of same-sex-attracted females, so it probably makes sense for a business like a dating app to cast its net as widely as possible in order to maximise the number of potential consumers. But this can’t be the explanation for everyone.

One underappreciated strand of the current discourse about lesbianism seems to be the weird idea floating about that committing yourself to loving females, as a female yourself, is some sort of moral vocation. Effectively, Exton and Kelley are acting as if, once you have come out as a lesbian (however that’s defined), you then have some moral duty not to sexually reject any woman (or “woman”), simply on the grounds of her womanhood. If you can appeal to some other less sweeping and more individual personal preference to get yourself off the hook, that’s different.

Now, you can argue with their underlying account of womanhood — and I do — but you can also disagree with the implication that being a lesbian ethically commits you to a “no woman left behind” attitude, at least in theory. In fact, morality has nothing to do with it. If, as a woman yourself, you do ever end up sexually rejecting another woman simply because she is a woman — and for no other reason — then you haven’t failed morally, though you might have just ceased to be a lesbian.

To conceive of your sexual orientation as a kind of missionary work may seem strange — and perhaps especially so to many heterosexuals — but it is also shored up by a popular contemporary conception of desire. In this view, sexual desires can be morally criticised and potentially perfected. This is not the mundane claim that you can choose not to act on deviant fantasies. Rather, it’s the idea that, simply on ethical grounds, you can work hard to breathe fire into your loins where there was none previously; or alternatively, extinguish it altogether. As a result, gay men should stop wanting “no fats, no femmes” on Grindr; black men should desire black women more often; it is wrong to feel sexual repulsion simply on grounds of weight; and so on.

Ironically, early adopters of the idea that desire could answer directly to one’s conscience were so-called “political lesbians”, arguing that any woman could become a lesbian in theory, and urging straight women to do so on the ethical grounds of fighting the patriarchy. Popularly understood as the idea that you could choose to feel aroused by a woman on political grounds, this is daft. Generally speaking, you can’t berate yourself into feeling turned on by something or someone that would otherwise leave you cold — unless, of course, berating yourself is already your kink.

In often conflict-filled discussions of the validity of political lesbianism, it’s sometimes assumed that there are only two choices — “born this way” or choice – and if the idea of a single genetic determinant is false, then your sexuality must be freely chosen. But that’s a false alternative. There is no single gay gene, and sexuality can and obviously does have environmental causes. But it doesn’t follow that you can choose what to like or not like in bed. You can’t choose your environment, and you can’t choose its complex effects on you. Yes, you might decide to leave your husband and shack up with a woman in order to stick it to the patriarchy. But you can’t choose what you’ll feel when she touches you.

Such points seem lost on the likes of Exton and Kelley, pointlessly and destructively intent on converting lesbians out of their homosexuality by shaming them into sleeping with males as a form of charity work. I’ve no doubt that, as a result of such pressure tactics, some lesbians will end up in bed with males. But they won’t like it. That fact of them not liking it is neither a moral victory for lesbianism, nor is it a defeat. It’s a simple description of lesbian sexuality. And if they do end up liking it, they probably aren’t lesbians.


Kathleen Stock is an UnHerd columnist and a co-director of The Lesbian Project.
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Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago

All I can say is that this mess is up to women to fix. You have been ferocious towards any men who transgress feminist rules for the last 40 years – I find it amazing that you are putting up with this BS. If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants” I could possibly be put out of my job. However if I put on lipstick and a wig and leered at women trying to change at the local swimming pool – they would be kicked out for complaining about it.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

“If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants” 
To be honest, it would never have occurred to me to say that to anyone, unless we were already on pretty intimate terms.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Lost in translation mid-Atlantic I suspect

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

how about ” You’d look even better out of those pants”?

poli redux
poli redux
1 year ago

Oh dear! Even my sweet mistress would regard that as impertinent before the third martini

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago

Or even “You look great in those pants – now put your trousers back on.”

Ron Bo
Ron Bo
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

When I get home I’m going to take off my wife’s pants.
They are killing me!

Ron Bo
Ron Bo
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

When I get home I’m going to take off my wife’s pants.
They are killing me!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Every group has one and Unherd has Nicky.

poli redux
poli redux
1 year ago

Oh dear! Even my sweet mistress would regard that as impertinent before the third martini

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago

Or even “You look great in those pants – now put your trousers back on.”

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Every group has one and Unherd has Nicky.

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

He probably doesn’t know that outside of North America “pants” are underwear.

poli redux
poli redux
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

I took him to mean trousery things, but I still wouldn’t say it I’m old school – no flirting at work except at the Christmas party when I run riot.

Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

I’m not entirely sure that they aren’t becoming one and the same thing !

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Lewis

and it’s Tom Lewis, in for the win!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nona Yubiz

Funny, thanks.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nona Yubiz

Funny, thanks.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Lewis

and it’s Tom Lewis, in for the win!

poli redux
poli redux
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

I took him to mean trousery things, but I still wouldn’t say it I’m old school – no flirting at work except at the Christmas party when I run riot.

Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

I’m not entirely sure that they aren’t becoming one and the same thing !

Andy O'Gorman
Andy O'Gorman
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Nor would I, but does that mean that women cannot compliment you in a similar vein? Geez, how sad that we have become so PC that a genuine compliment is seen as sexual harassment or a blatant come-on.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I’ve generally found that people appreciate compliments. Even women.

Stephen Follows
Stephen Follows
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

Are women still people, then? I’m really finding it hard to keep up with all this.

Julian Pellatt
Julian Pellatt
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

In the past 10-15 years commenting on a woman’s appearance in the workplace has become a major ‘No! No!’ – with the interpretation of male lewdness and patriarchal arrogance driving such outrageous behaviour. Pay woman colleagues or in public compliments at peril of your continued employment!

Stephen Follows
Stephen Follows
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

Are women still people, then? I’m really finding it hard to keep up with all this.

Julian Pellatt
Julian Pellatt
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

In the past 10-15 years commenting on a woman’s appearance in the workplace has become a major ‘No! No!’ – with the interpretation of male lewdness and patriarchal arrogance driving such outrageous behaviour. Pay woman colleagues or in public compliments at peril of your continued employment!

TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I used to enjoy office banter and flirtations – thank God I’m getting old enough to blame it on the old days.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

True.

M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Nuance goes far in this I think. You could probably say, “I love your pants/trousers,” or even, “You look very nice today” without it being all that controversial. But something about “You look good in those pants” seems to cross a line.

Ron Bo
Ron Bo
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Jamieson

“You look very nice today”
Surely that implies they do not normally look nice?
Say nothing and keep your head down is the best way.

Ron Bo
Ron Bo
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Jamieson

“You look very nice today”
Surely that implies they do not normally look nice?
Say nothing and keep your head down is the best way.

harry storm
harry storm
11 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Even “you look nice” could do it in some places. And one needn’t be on intimate terms with someone to say that.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
11 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

I compliment strangers if I think they look nice, wherever I go. They always cheer up and say I made their day.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
11 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

I compliment strangers if I think they look nice, wherever I go. They always cheer up and say I made their day.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
11 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I wonder how it would play out if a biological woman told a biological man he “looked good in those pants”. I suspect a gay man would enjoy the compliment.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Lost in translation mid-Atlantic I suspect

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

how about ” You’d look even better out of those pants”?

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

He probably doesn’t know that outside of North America “pants” are underwear.

Andy O'Gorman
Andy O'Gorman
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Nor would I, but does that mean that women cannot compliment you in a similar vein? Geez, how sad that we have become so PC that a genuine compliment is seen as sexual harassment or a blatant come-on.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I’ve generally found that people appreciate compliments. Even women.

TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I used to enjoy office banter and flirtations – thank God I’m getting old enough to blame it on the old days.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

True.

M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Nuance goes far in this I think. You could probably say, “I love your pants/trousers,” or even, “You look very nice today” without it being all that controversial. But something about “You look good in those pants” seems to cross a line.

harry storm
harry storm
11 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Even “you look nice” could do it in some places. And one needn’t be on intimate terms with someone to say that.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
11 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I wonder how it would play out if a biological woman told a biological man he “looked good in those pants”. I suspect a gay man would enjoy the compliment.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Time to embrace the slurs and get the T-shirts printed
I am an “irrelevant has-been lez-bean, a fascist”, a transphobic bigot full of hatred, and a sad, hateful clown and proud of it”.

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

This
As much as I understand that translesbianism is an obvious hoax, I find it a funny reaction to some misandrist currents of the State religion of feminism.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
1 year ago

Misogynistic floodwaters still roar pretty loudly. I see it as more plainly opportunistic than a reaction to whatever eddies of misandry exist.

Bernard Bee
Bernard Bee
1 year ago

When I was at college there were plenty of limp-wristed young men who learned that a good way of copping off with a certain type of woman was to pretend to be left-wing, ‘anti-patriarchy’ and feminist, and put on an ‘androgynous’ appearance. It would seem to be that these so-called ‘translesbians’ are simply taking things to the next level. Good luck to them if they get what they are after, as it’s down to the woman to go along with this nonsense or not, surely?

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Bernard Bee

Women are often sexually aroused by money, either that or some beautiful women are genuinely aroused by nonagenarian men and the billions are just a bonus.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Astonishing!

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago

There is an article in Spiked today that includes hoi polloi. The author (Tom Slater) agrees with you as does the French author of a current article on Unherd, but English dictionaries and a writer for the Guardian agree with me. I think you might have started something. I had not heard the phrase (or noticed it) for many, many years before I used it.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Same problem with the Arabic word Alcohol!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Inadvertent duplication.

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago

I guess when a word or phrase is incorporated into another language, it takes on a new meaning. I don’t think hoi polloi has the negative connotations in Greek that it has in English. The French say le brexit.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

No it didn’t, but then the English Public School system ‘weaponised’ it, as they also did with “Plebs” and “Oiks”.

There were some benefits to be gained from an expensive ‘Classical’ education!

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago

You were fortunate (one of the lucky ones – sic). You probably received one of the best educations it was possible to receive. Since then it has been downhill. If I could have chosen my education, I would have chosen a traditional English public school education but I have learnt to appreciate my own educational trajectory.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago

You were fortunate (one of the lucky ones – sic). You probably received one of the best educations it was possible to receive. Since then it has been downhill. If I could have chosen my education, I would have chosen a traditional English public school education but I have learnt to appreciate my own educational trajectory.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

No it didn’t, but then the English Public School system ‘weaponised’ it, as they also did with “Plebs” and “Oiks”.

There were some benefits to be gained from an expensive ‘Classical’ education!

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago

I guess when a word or phrase is incorporated into another language, it takes on a new meaning. I don’t think hoi polloi has the negative connotations in Greek that it has in English. The French say le brexit.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Same problem with the Arabic word Alcohol!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Inadvertent duplication.

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago

There is an article in Spiked today that includes hoi polloi. The author (Tom Slater) agrees with you as does the French author of a current article on Unherd, but English dictionaries and a writer for the Guardian agree with me. I think you might have started something. I had not heard the phrase (or noticed it) for many, many years before I used it.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Astonishing!

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Bernard Bee

Women are often sexually aroused by money, either that or some beautiful women are genuinely aroused by nonagenarian men and the billions are just a bonus.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Andrew McDonald
Andrew McDonald
1 year ago

This
Why do you start your response with ‘This’, placed alone on a line? I’ve noticed this occasionally and wonder what it is supposed to portray?

Stephen Follows
Stephen Follows
1 year ago

‘ I’ve noticed this occasionally and wonder what it is supposed to portray?’
That. Obviously.

Philip Cooper
Philip Cooper
1 year ago

‘That. Obviously.’
Hmmmmm ..

This
Surely you mean –
That
Obviously ?

Last edited 1 year ago by Philip Cooper
Philip Cooper
Philip Cooper
1 year ago

‘That. Obviously.’
Hmmmmm ..

This
Surely you mean –
That
Obviously ?

Last edited 1 year ago by Philip Cooper
Stephen Follows
Stephen Follows
1 year ago

‘ I’ve noticed this occasionally and wonder what it is supposed to portray?’
That. Obviously.

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
1 year ago

Misogynistic floodwaters still roar pretty loudly. I see it as more plainly opportunistic than a reaction to whatever eddies of misandry exist.

Bernard Bee
Bernard Bee
1 year ago

When I was at college there were plenty of limp-wristed young men who learned that a good way of copping off with a certain type of woman was to pretend to be left-wing, ‘anti-patriarchy’ and feminist, and put on an ‘androgynous’ appearance. It would seem to be that these so-called ‘translesbians’ are simply taking things to the next level. Good luck to them if they get what they are after, as it’s down to the woman to go along with this nonsense or not, surely?

Andrew McDonald
Andrew McDonald
1 year ago

This
Why do you start your response with ‘This’, placed alone on a line? I’ve noticed this occasionally and wonder what it is supposed to portray?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

While I agree with you that feminists are the ones principally responsible for creating this intersectional nightmare and that it’s therefore tempting to let them stew in it, the awkward fact remains that it is affecting all women, not merely those who consider themselves feminists.

We men have little choice but to support the resistance to these terrible, anti-human ideas. And eventually of course, if women do find themselves permanently under the yoke of this baleful ideology, it won’t be long before men are next anyway, so it’s in our interest to help resist it.

Jess David
Jess David
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

How noble of you to join the battle. But of course, as you said, your bottom line is your own safety and well-being.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I agree. We even have to support the freedom of speech of odious people who want to suppress ours. However I genuinely think that men who try and get into this issue will be told to butt out, etc. Women have to own this one and thanks to some very brave pathfinders like JK Rowling and Meghan Murphy they are starting to stand up to it.

Jess David
Jess David
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

How noble of you to join the battle. But of course, as you said, your bottom line is your own safety and well-being.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I agree. We even have to support the freedom of speech of odious people who want to suppress ours. However I genuinely think that men who try and get into this issue will be told to butt out, etc. Women have to own this one and thanks to some very brave pathfinders like JK Rowling and Meghan Murphy they are starting to stand up to it.

Jess David
Jess David
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

…Said by the privileged male. Wake up, you are on the list next.

Andy O'Gorman
Andy O'Gorman
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

The question is surly: Why do they? I’ve never forced anyone to sleep with me!
They want their cake and want to eat it – is my only take on this.

TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Brilliant!! And you are sort of right, this is yet another thing for women to fix. These (mostly male white) clowns masquerading as women are an affront to everything women have fought for. But Peter you miss one thing – those who protest against this weird nonsense are shunned like Amish sluts. Wrong view? Maybe forget your job, just like a man fears #metoo. EVERYONE needs to stand against this very peculiar BS. Frankly I’m not sure what they’re really getting at now… but I’ve heard this is the next step to something far darker… hopefully you know what I’m talking about. Only takes a generation.

Sarah Clark
Sarah Clark
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Hey look – a man trying to foist his work off on women while claiming to be persecuted by the mere fact that women have rights.

A) That’s right – men have had decades to accept and adjust to the fact that women have rights and don’t actually owe men a single thing. Feminism has been extending the possibility of liberation to men equally as long, trying to help them see the ways that patriarchy creates immense amounts of suffering and injustice for MEN, too, trying to get them to abandon the bankrupt idea of traditional masculinity that severs men from half of their humanity. Unfortunately for men, they can’t put aside their hyper-fragile egos in the short term, no matter what the long term benefits. Women have been quite busy doing the work of our OWN liberation, thank you. We’ll still be here when men are ready to get serious about liberating themselves.

B) When men say things like “You look good in those pants,” what it sounds like to me is “I’ve been staring at your ass and now I want to push you into an interaction with me so that I can do other creepy shit like checking out the front of your body – most likely staring at your tits long enough to get caught – standing too close, touching your arm or back or hair, and just generally getting off on the knowledge that I’m making you uncomfortable.” It’s quite possible that YOU weren’t going to say/do any of those things, and I acknowledge that this isn’t fair. The problem is that when so many OTHER men do that stuff to us, it becomes a matter of SELF DEFENSE/ personal safety to be very wary around men. It’s not a good solution, it doesn’t make men’s or women’s lives better, but only MEN can stop the insane amounts of domestic violence, rape, and even murder that they commit every year in the US. Looky there – more work for you!

harry storm
harry storm
11 months ago
Reply to  Sarah Clark

I just love how the term “patriarchy” is used uncritically and unquestioningly as though it’s really a thing.

harry storm
harry storm
11 months ago
Reply to  Sarah Clark

I just love how the term “patriarchy” is used uncritically and unquestioningly as though it’s really a thing.

Abby Wynne
Abby Wynne
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

This “mess” is up to everybody to fix. Including you.

Ed Carden
Ed Carden
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Well said!
Feminism paved the way for this as many of the same tactics teh transactivist are using against women who refuse to bend the knee were being used on men by feminists 10 years earlier. I am NO fan or supporter of this trans non-sense but it does look very much like a kind of karma it’s just sad that innocent women (the non-feminists) are also victims of what it does.

harry storm
harry storm
11 months ago
Reply to  Ed Carden

What transactivists are doing currently bears little or no resemblance to the radical feminists of the 1980s or 1990s. They may share some (dubious) philosophical underpinnings but that’s it. For all their bluster, radical feminists and/or lesbians never behaved anything like transactivists of today do. Naturally enough, the TRAs are men.

harry storm
harry storm
11 months ago
Reply to  Ed Carden

What transactivists are doing currently bears little or no resemblance to the radical feminists of the 1980s or 1990s. They may share some (dubious) philosophical underpinnings but that’s it. For all their bluster, radical feminists and/or lesbians never behaved anything like transactivists of today do. Naturally enough, the TRAs are men.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

“If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants” 
To be honest, it would never have occurred to me to say that to anyone, unless we were already on pretty intimate terms.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Time to embrace the slurs and get the T-shirts printed
I am an “irrelevant has-been lez-bean, a fascist”, a transphobic bigot full of hatred, and a sad, hateful clown and proud of it”.

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

This
As much as I understand that translesbianism is an obvious hoax, I find it a funny reaction to some misandrist currents of the State religion of feminism.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

While I agree with you that feminists are the ones principally responsible for creating this intersectional nightmare and that it’s therefore tempting to let them stew in it, the awkward fact remains that it is affecting all women, not merely those who consider themselves feminists.

We men have little choice but to support the resistance to these terrible, anti-human ideas. And eventually of course, if women do find themselves permanently under the yoke of this baleful ideology, it won’t be long before men are next anyway, so it’s in our interest to help resist it.

Jess David
Jess David
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

…Said by the privileged male. Wake up, you are on the list next.

Andy O'Gorman
Andy O'Gorman
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

The question is surly: Why do they? I’ve never forced anyone to sleep with me!
They want their cake and want to eat it – is my only take on this.

TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Brilliant!! And you are sort of right, this is yet another thing for women to fix. These (mostly male white) clowns masquerading as women are an affront to everything women have fought for. But Peter you miss one thing – those who protest against this weird nonsense are shunned like Amish sluts. Wrong view? Maybe forget your job, just like a man fears #metoo. EVERYONE needs to stand against this very peculiar BS. Frankly I’m not sure what they’re really getting at now… but I’ve heard this is the next step to something far darker… hopefully you know what I’m talking about. Only takes a generation.

Sarah Clark
Sarah Clark
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Hey look – a man trying to foist his work off on women while claiming to be persecuted by the mere fact that women have rights.

A) That’s right – men have had decades to accept and adjust to the fact that women have rights and don’t actually owe men a single thing. Feminism has been extending the possibility of liberation to men equally as long, trying to help them see the ways that patriarchy creates immense amounts of suffering and injustice for MEN, too, trying to get them to abandon the bankrupt idea of traditional masculinity that severs men from half of their humanity. Unfortunately for men, they can’t put aside their hyper-fragile egos in the short term, no matter what the long term benefits. Women have been quite busy doing the work of our OWN liberation, thank you. We’ll still be here when men are ready to get serious about liberating themselves.

B) When men say things like “You look good in those pants,” what it sounds like to me is “I’ve been staring at your ass and now I want to push you into an interaction with me so that I can do other creepy shit like checking out the front of your body – most likely staring at your tits long enough to get caught – standing too close, touching your arm or back or hair, and just generally getting off on the knowledge that I’m making you uncomfortable.” It’s quite possible that YOU weren’t going to say/do any of those things, and I acknowledge that this isn’t fair. The problem is that when so many OTHER men do that stuff to us, it becomes a matter of SELF DEFENSE/ personal safety to be very wary around men. It’s not a good solution, it doesn’t make men’s or women’s lives better, but only MEN can stop the insane amounts of domestic violence, rape, and even murder that they commit every year in the US. Looky there – more work for you!

Abby Wynne
Abby Wynne
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

This “mess” is up to everybody to fix. Including you.

Ed Carden
Ed Carden
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Well said!
Feminism paved the way for this as many of the same tactics teh transactivist are using against women who refuse to bend the knee were being used on men by feminists 10 years earlier. I am NO fan or supporter of this trans non-sense but it does look very much like a kind of karma it’s just sad that innocent women (the non-feminists) are also victims of what it does.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago

All I can say is that this mess is up to women to fix. You have been ferocious towards any men who transgress feminist rules for the last 40 years – I find it amazing that you are putting up with this BS. If I went to work tomorrow and told a female colleague “you look good in those pants” I could possibly be put out of my job. However if I put on lipstick and a wig and leered at women trying to change at the local swimming pool – they would be kicked out for complaining about it.

Iris Violet
Iris Violet
1 year ago

I find myself experiencing a form of LGBTQ+ (or whatever it is now) and race issues fatigue. Who are all those people so concerned with whether their stances, private thoughts or indeed sexual preferences are anyone’s business but their own?

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

Indeed. We have indulged them for long enough.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Quite so.

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

How do you plan to stop indulging them? Our venerable institutions have the initiative there. They urge us all to join them in admiration (mere tolerance won’t do) for just about every type of sexual deviant.

Last edited 1 year ago by N Satori
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  N Satori

“Night follows day’”.

Ticiba Upe
Ticiba Upe
1 year ago
Reply to  N Satori

Laugh at them and ignore them….

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago
Reply to  Ticiba Upe

How do you laugh at someone and ignore them at the same time?
Anyway, will they ignore you? Activists have little patience with those who fail to be persuaded by the rightness of their cause. Remember that “Silence is Violence” trope.

Clare Gibb
Clare Gibb
1 year ago
Reply to  Ticiba Upe

THat’s all very well, but it’s hard to ignore them when they are in one’s changing room with their tackle out. Or adjusting their todger in the queue for the ladies at St Pancras, as Eddie Izzard was caught doing this week.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Gibb

Oh no not Eddie!!!! What happened? He was my favorite stand-up comic.

Stephen Follows
Stephen Follows
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

He joined the Labour Party.

Philip Cooper
Philip Cooper
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

These days I think he prefers to do his business sitting-down.

Stephen Follows
Stephen Follows
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

He joined the Labour Party.

Philip Cooper
Philip Cooper
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

These days I think he prefers to do his business sitting-down.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Gibb

Oh no not Eddie!!!! What happened? He was my favorite stand-up comic.

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago
Reply to  Ticiba Upe

How do you laugh at someone and ignore them at the same time?
Anyway, will they ignore you? Activists have little patience with those who fail to be persuaded by the rightness of their cause. Remember that “Silence is Violence” trope.

Clare Gibb
Clare Gibb
1 year ago
Reply to  Ticiba Upe

THat’s all very well, but it’s hard to ignore them when they are in one’s changing room with their tackle out. Or adjusting their todger in the queue for the ladies at St Pancras, as Eddie Izzard was caught doing this week.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  N Satori

“Night follows day’”.

Ticiba Upe
Ticiba Upe
1 year ago
Reply to  N Satori

Laugh at them and ignore them….

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Quite so.

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

How do you plan to stop indulging them? Our venerable institutions have the initiative there. They urge us all to join them in admiration (mere tolerance won’t do) for just about every type of sexual deviant.

Last edited 1 year ago by N Satori
Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

The weird thing is that the whole LGBT+ group only make up 1-2% of the population. Yet stories about them take up 50% of the new agenda.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Yes very weird indeed.

I have no objection to Gomorrahites or whatever they are now called, we have moved on a bit since the days of David Maxwell Fyfe, but this obsession is completely disproportionate. Where will it end?

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Alison Tyler
Alison Tyler
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Interest in my own sexuality, let alone anyone else’s, takes up very little of my time as there are so many other competing interests to occupy the mind and the time.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alison Tyler

Maybe because you’re no spring chicken, nevertheless, it’s a compelling issue because Unherd keeps writing about it knowing we’ll bite.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Alison Tyler

Maybe because you’re no spring chicken, nevertheless, it’s a compelling issue because Unherd keeps writing about it knowing we’ll bite.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

This is an example of the Spiral of Silence Theory by Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann in action. Those who make the most noise not only get all the attention, but they also make the majority believe that they are in the minority and cow them into silence.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

We no longer have a middle class who can say ” What utter drivel “.

Tom Smith
Tom Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Love it! I said exactly that on the article on “what was there to hide….” – was tempted on this one but you’ve done it for me Still a fan of Unheard though.

Tom Smith
Tom Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Love it! I said exactly that on the article on “what was there to hide….” – was tempted on this one but you’ve done it for me Still a fan of Unheard though.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Or “empty barrels make the most noise”. It would seem from what I’m learning from print and documentaries that there are different kinds of players in the game, those that are genuine and those that are jumping on the band wagon,the latter making it difficult for those who aren’t playing a game.Yet another category of the sincere is shown in the netflix documentary “Intersext”– the hermaphrodites.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

We no longer have a middle class who can say ” What utter drivel “.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Or “empty barrels make the most noise”. It would seem from what I’m learning from print and documentaries that there are different kinds of players in the game, those that are genuine and those that are jumping on the band wagon,the latter making it difficult for those who aren’t playing a game.Yet another category of the sincere is shown in the netflix documentary “Intersext”– the hermaphrodites.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Exactly, it feels like a sunami even though it’s only a first world tidal wave, so far.

Iris Violet
Iris Violet
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Indeed. Who benefits from keeping the people preoccupied with these hyped up ‘culture wars’? The pundits, the commentators, the race baiters, grievance seekers or the mushroomed mental health industry? Or is it simply that this is what sells at the moment?

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

“what sells”, yes. Follow the big money in the world of pharm and tech medicine.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

“what sells”, yes. Follow the big money in the world of pharm and tech medicine.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

There is no such thing as the “LGBT group”. The Ts are a separate group, and also the dominant group with laws having been passed in their favour and many T movers and shakers in places of power.

J Dunne
J Dunne
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

And characters in soap operas can’t be far off that %.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Yes very weird indeed.

I have no objection to Gomorrahites or whatever they are now called, we have moved on a bit since the days of David Maxwell Fyfe, but this obsession is completely disproportionate. Where will it end?

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Alison Tyler
Alison Tyler
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Interest in my own sexuality, let alone anyone else’s, takes up very little of my time as there are so many other competing interests to occupy the mind and the time.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

This is an example of the Spiral of Silence Theory by Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann in action. Those who make the most noise not only get all the attention, but they also make the majority believe that they are in the minority and cow them into silence.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Exactly, it feels like a sunami even though it’s only a first world tidal wave, so far.

Iris Violet
Iris Violet
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Indeed. Who benefits from keeping the people preoccupied with these hyped up ‘culture wars’? The pundits, the commentators, the race baiters, grievance seekers or the mushroomed mental health industry? Or is it simply that this is what sells at the moment?

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

There is no such thing as the “LGBT group”. The Ts are a separate group, and also the dominant group with laws having been passed in their favour and many T movers and shakers in places of power.

J Dunne
J Dunne
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

And characters in soap operas can’t be far off that %.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

Look under the mask – they’re all Puritans. They’re back again, wearing new secular clothes, still grim-faced, still joyless, still hectoring anyone within range.  

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Neo-puritans: as delightful as all the other ‘neos’ – liberal;/marxist/fascist. Perhaps the OED should add another definition of ‘neo’, as meaning ‘crap’.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I suppose the definition of Puritan works quite well for them. After all, the Puritans were known for being intolerant, belligerent, fanatical, and utterly convinced of their own righteousness. I have always been convinced that Puritanism survived on many levels in the US, and not surprisingly this radical mindset thrives on the West Coast. I posit that just like the originals Pilgrims and Puritans went westward and crossed the Atlantic, because they did not/could not to fit into mainstream English society, their descendants moved farther west until they eventually ran out of land. Old electoral maps show that the states along the West Coast along with New England, the cradle of Puritanism, voted Republican, which at the time was the part of liberalism whereas the South was in the hands of conservative Democrats. The ideological switch did not happen until the late 1940s. I am convinced that there is connection between “progressivism” and Puritanism, and that the former are direct descendants of the latter.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

I disagree.

J Dunne
J Dunne
1 year ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Very interesting idea this, I would live to see some proper research done into it. It had never occurred to me why US progressives are based so overwhelmingly on both coasts.

Michael Cavanaugh
Michael Cavanaugh
1 year ago
Reply to  J Dunne

Hunter S Thompson had a theory about why Hell’s Angels originated in California: as the frontier moved westward across North America, the PWT descendants of the jailbirds sent to colonize GA followed, a generation behind; eventually their descendants all end up in Orange Co CA. Explains Hell’s Angels, also the various eccentric religions from the region and Nixon into the bargain. (Maybe Oz too? Alas not the Right Coast. But maybe there is some sort of centrifuge effect – whether or not HST got the correct centrifuge.)

Michael Cavanaugh
Michael Cavanaugh
1 year ago
Reply to  J Dunne

Hunter S Thompson had a theory about why Hell’s Angels originated in California: as the frontier moved westward across North America, the PWT descendants of the jailbirds sent to colonize GA followed, a generation behind; eventually their descendants all end up in Orange Co CA. Explains Hell’s Angels, also the various eccentric religions from the region and Nixon into the bargain. (Maybe Oz too? Alas not the Right Coast. But maybe there is some sort of centrifuge effect – whether or not HST got the correct centrifuge.)

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

I disagree.

J Dunne
J Dunne
1 year ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Very interesting idea this, I would live to see some proper research done into it. It had never occurred to me why US progressives are based so overwhelmingly on both coasts.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Hmm. Puritans who support MAP?

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Neo-puritans: as delightful as all the other ‘neos’ – liberal;/marxist/fascist. Perhaps the OED should add another definition of ‘neo’, as meaning ‘crap’.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I suppose the definition of Puritan works quite well for them. After all, the Puritans were known for being intolerant, belligerent, fanatical, and utterly convinced of their own righteousness. I have always been convinced that Puritanism survived on many levels in the US, and not surprisingly this radical mindset thrives on the West Coast. I posit that just like the originals Pilgrims and Puritans went westward and crossed the Atlantic, because they did not/could not to fit into mainstream English society, their descendants moved farther west until they eventually ran out of land. Old electoral maps show that the states along the West Coast along with New England, the cradle of Puritanism, voted Republican, which at the time was the part of liberalism whereas the South was in the hands of conservative Democrats. The ideological switch did not happen until the late 1940s. I am convinced that there is connection between “progressivism” and Puritanism, and that the former are direct descendants of the latter.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Hmm. Puritans who support MAP?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

Watch out! The diesel dykes will come round and tear your encyclopaedias in half….

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

An LGB etc organization is trying to get Fox News banned in Canada by our regulator for being anti-trans. Of course the regulator is taking the request seriously. I too am exhausted with the never ending push by these groups. It has certainly backfired with me – and I suspect others. I used to be very positive to all this – now my response is “$$&!( off and leave me alone.”

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Will the Canadian government set up jamming devices if the request is granted? Most of the population of Canada lives within the reach of American Fox News stations.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Will the Canadian government set up jamming devices if the request is granted? Most of the population of Canada lives within the reach of American Fox News stations.

James A
James A
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

It’s worth bearing in mind that lots of LGB have no time for the TQ+ people, and are more fed up with them than the rest of us, particularly as they fear this will end up in a backlash against them all.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  James A

Exactly, so true.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  James A

Yes, backlash indeed. In Tasmania lesbians are not allowed to advertise an event as “female only”. The only way they can meet is by way of clandestine organisation.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  James A

Exactly, so true.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  James A

Yes, backlash indeed. In Tasmania lesbians are not allowed to advertise an event as “female only”. The only way they can meet is by way of clandestine organisation.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

Those people are called narcissists.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

Because it doesn’t end with them. It’s overflowed into mainstream culture via pronouns and toilets. As a liberal I find the pronoun issue annoying and I haven’t had to encounter the toilet issue yet but don’t look forward to it.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

I’ve started addressing them as “you people”.

Andrew McDonald
Andrew McDonald
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

We are all suffering that fatigue. And yet as of today (7/4/23) 214 people have ploughed through the article and a waste of irritable comments, and still have the energy (and interest) to upvote your comment (I expect this comment counts as 215).
If we were really worried about the societal issues, we would be writing to our MPs or taking to the streets, instead of clucking on to our fellow Unherders and ruffling our feathers in semi-public. Odd, isn’t it?

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

Indeed. We have indulged them for long enough.

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

The weird thing is that the whole LGBT+ group only make up 1-2% of the population. Yet stories about them take up 50% of the new agenda.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

Look under the mask – they’re all Puritans. They’re back again, wearing new secular clothes, still grim-faced, still joyless, still hectoring anyone within range.  

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

Watch out! The diesel dykes will come round and tear your encyclopaedias in half….

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

An LGB etc organization is trying to get Fox News banned in Canada by our regulator for being anti-trans. Of course the regulator is taking the request seriously. I too am exhausted with the never ending push by these groups. It has certainly backfired with me – and I suspect others. I used to be very positive to all this – now my response is “$$&!( off and leave me alone.”

James A
James A
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

It’s worth bearing in mind that lots of LGB have no time for the TQ+ people, and are more fed up with them than the rest of us, particularly as they fear this will end up in a backlash against them all.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

Those people are called narcissists.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

Because it doesn’t end with them. It’s overflowed into mainstream culture via pronouns and toilets. As a liberal I find the pronoun issue annoying and I haven’t had to encounter the toilet issue yet but don’t look forward to it.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

I’ve started addressing them as “you people”.

Andrew McDonald
Andrew McDonald
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris Violet

We are all suffering that fatigue. And yet as of today (7/4/23) 214 people have ploughed through the article and a waste of irritable comments, and still have the energy (and interest) to upvote your comment (I expect this comment counts as 215).
If we were really worried about the societal issues, we would be writing to our MPs or taking to the streets, instead of clucking on to our fellow Unherders and ruffling our feathers in semi-public. Odd, isn’t it?

Iris Violet
Iris Violet
1 year ago

I find myself experiencing a form of LGBTQ+ (or whatever it is now) and race issues fatigue. Who are all those people so concerned with whether their stances, private thoughts or indeed sexual preferences are anyone’s business but their own?

Jane Watson
Jane Watson
1 year ago

“if a male identifies as a woman and is also attracted to women, he counts as a “trans lesbian””…

So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?

I think someone should brief Starmer. He’ll want to keep up.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Watson

They should, since i can’t imagine anyone (male or female) wanting to debrief him.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

K-TOOSH

Alison Tyler
Alison Tyler
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Me neither

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

K-TOOSH

Alison Tyler
Alison Tyler
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Me neither

Arkadian X
Arkadian X
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Watson

I would like to know if a trans lesbian can be attracted to another trans lesbian or only to bog standard ones.

Last edited 1 year ago by Arkadian X
Joff Brown
Joff Brown
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

I think we all know the answer to that one.

Gordon Buckman
Gordon Buckman
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

In the real world, that would make them gay men with a dressing up fetish….

Derek Smith
Derek Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Yes they can. I’ve seen this happen.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Definitely they like young women . There is a popular genre of Lesbian porn watched by men mainly . Could this be partly to blame ? Having read Robyn Exton’s diatribe against Terfs I am willing to bet it wasn’t penned by her . She may be a front for the site aiming to attract a few real young lesbian women to service the men .

Kayla Marx
Kayla Marx
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

I read a comment once by a lesbian whose trans woman friend asked to be fixed up with one of her friends. So the lesbian arranged a date for him with one of her friends who was also a trans women. The friend who asked for the fix-up was really annoyed, and acted like he’d been slapped in the face.
Trans women do have a problem, because transitioning doesn’t change their sexual orientation (towards women). But most straight women are turned off when they find that a suitor is (much) more attracted to himself than to her. So in claiming lesbian status, and attempting to gaslight lesbians, trans women are trying to lay claim to a group of women who will accept them as bed mates. But an intimate relationship (in and out of bed) between an AGP male and a women is nothing like an intimate relationship between two same-sex attracted women. Shannon Thrace’s “18 months” is very enlightening on this point.

Last edited 1 year ago by Kayla Marx
Joff Brown
Joff Brown
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

I think we all know the answer to that one.

Gordon Buckman
Gordon Buckman
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

In the real world, that would make them gay men with a dressing up fetish….

Derek Smith
Derek Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Yes they can. I’ve seen this happen.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Definitely they like young women . There is a popular genre of Lesbian porn watched by men mainly . Could this be partly to blame ? Having read Robyn Exton’s diatribe against Terfs I am willing to bet it wasn’t penned by her . She may be a front for the site aiming to attract a few real young lesbian women to service the men .

Kayla Marx
Kayla Marx
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

I read a comment once by a lesbian whose trans woman friend asked to be fixed up with one of her friends. So the lesbian arranged a date for him with one of her friends who was also a trans women. The friend who asked for the fix-up was really annoyed, and acted like he’d been slapped in the face.
Trans women do have a problem, because transitioning doesn’t change their sexual orientation (towards women). But most straight women are turned off when they find that a suitor is (much) more attracted to himself than to her. So in claiming lesbian status, and attempting to gaslight lesbians, trans women are trying to lay claim to a group of women who will accept them as bed mates. But an intimate relationship (in and out of bed) between an AGP male and a women is nothing like an intimate relationship between two same-sex attracted women. Shannon Thrace’s “18 months” is very enlightening on this point.

Last edited 1 year ago by Kayla Marx
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Watson

“So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?”
“if a trans lesbian can be attracted to another trans lesbian or only to bog standard ones.”
My head hurts.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Funny but true.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Funny but true.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Watson

It feels mathematically like it should just all cancel out somehow.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Watson

Who among us can keep up?!!

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Watson

They should, since i can’t imagine anyone (male or female) wanting to debrief him.

Arkadian X
Arkadian X
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Watson

I would like to know if a trans lesbian can be attracted to another trans lesbian or only to bog standard ones.

Last edited 1 year ago by Arkadian X
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Watson

“So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?”
“if a trans lesbian can be attracted to another trans lesbian or only to bog standard ones.”
My head hurts.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Watson

It feels mathematically like it should just all cancel out somehow.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Watson

Who among us can keep up?!!

Jane Watson
Jane Watson
1 year ago

“if a male identifies as a woman and is also attracted to women, he counts as a “trans lesbian””…

So transwomen are trans lesbians (as opposed to heterosexual males)?

I think someone should brief Starmer. He’ll want to keep up.

Rob Butler
Rob Butler
1 year ago

If you have sex with someone as a political act, then quite frankly, you deserve what you get.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Butler

Thank you for making me laugh. I couldn’t agree more!

Clare Gibb
Clare Gibb
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Butler

Coorrrrrr! Look at the manifesto on THAT!

RM Parker
RM Parker
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Butler

Much the same as doing so as a stage act, I suppose…

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Butler

Thank you for making me laugh. I couldn’t agree more!

Clare Gibb
Clare Gibb
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Butler

Coorrrrrr! Look at the manifesto on THAT!

RM Parker
RM Parker
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Butler

Much the same as doing so as a stage act, I suppose…

Rob Butler
Rob Butler
1 year ago

If you have sex with someone as a political act, then quite frankly, you deserve what you get.

Joseph Wein
Joseph Wein
1 year ago

It’s pretty striking that lesbian app founder Robyn Exton would chastise lesbians for being interested in dating only women.
As a straight man, I have no discomfort in saying that I am uninterested in a “woman” with a p***s. A man with gender dysphoria is not women in my book, nor in my bed.
Perhaps all those lesbians who so offend Exton will take up her offer and delete her app.

Lindsay S
Lindsay S
1 year ago
Reply to  Joseph Wein

I think it’s hilarious that people seem to think that being a lesbian is about being attracted to people who dress like women! I’d be interested to know what the dressing as women ratio actually is in the lesbian community. All these years I thought being gay was about same s e x attraction, not same clothing attraction.

Allie McBeth
Allie McBeth
1 year ago
Reply to  Lindsay S

So if you are only attracted to the “butch” lesbians, does that mean you’re a bigot too? This is sexual apartheid really.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Lindsay S

They are not women because they wear women’s clothes , but because they have female souls . Supposedly

Allie McBeth
Allie McBeth
1 year ago
Reply to  Lindsay S

So if you are only attracted to the “butch” lesbians, does that mean you’re a bigot too? This is sexual apartheid really.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Lindsay S

They are not women because they wear women’s clothes , but because they have female souls . Supposedly

Michael Nott
Michael Nott
1 year ago
Reply to  Joseph Wein

Yep, and it’s interesting that it’s lesbians rather than straight men who are being guilt tripped into accepting partners with penises. Doesn’t seem to be any comparable pressure on straight geezers to be so “open minded”.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  Joseph Wein

They are already cancelled. It is an app for trans onliy.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Janet G

I bet they have to have a proportion of real women lesbians on the App to attract the female impersonators .

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Janet G

I bet they have to have a proportion of real women lesbians on the App to attract the female impersonators .

Lindsay S
Lindsay S
1 year ago
Reply to  Joseph Wein

I think it’s hilarious that people seem to think that being a lesbian is about being attracted to people who dress like women! I’d be interested to know what the dressing as women ratio actually is in the lesbian community. All these years I thought being gay was about same s e x attraction, not same clothing attraction.

Michael Nott
Michael Nott
1 year ago
Reply to  Joseph Wein

Yep, and it’s interesting that it’s lesbians rather than straight men who are being guilt tripped into accepting partners with penises. Doesn’t seem to be any comparable pressure on straight geezers to be so “open minded”.

Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago
Reply to  Joseph Wein

They are already cancelled. It is an app for trans onliy.

Joseph Wein
Joseph Wein
1 year ago

It’s pretty striking that lesbian app founder Robyn Exton would chastise lesbians for being interested in dating only women.
As a straight man, I have no discomfort in saying that I am uninterested in a “woman” with a p***s. A man with gender dysphoria is not women in my book, nor in my bed.
Perhaps all those lesbians who so offend Exton will take up her offer and delete her app.

Matt Sylvestre
Matt Sylvestre
1 year ago

If ever there was an example of rabid political ideology coming full circle on to itself this is it… Can you imagine 20 years ago saying to these activists “you can Will yourself to not be lesbian and prefer men for the good of society”… What can be said….