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Who are the strikers fooling? Jesters exist to tell unacceptable truths

Social disruption is indispensable (Jeff J Mitchell/Getty Images)

Social disruption is indispensable (Jeff J Mitchell/Getty Images)


March 14, 2023   6 mins

The tide of industrial action rolls steadily on. Even physiotherapists are threatening to bring the country to its knees, rather than performing their usual task of setting it on its feet. Next, surely, it will be vicars, who will abandon their sermons, rip off their vestments and refuse to bury your grandmother. All this, needless to say, involves a good deal of inconvenience. You might, for example, have to stand for hours in the freezing cold holding a placard and worrying about the pay you are losing in doing so. People do such things anyway, however, since itā€™s inconvenient to have to walk because you canā€™t afford public transport, or take a second job in order to provide your children with a decent breakfast.

Thereā€™s also some lesser inconvenience to what the media calls the public, but it doesnā€™t usually last for long. A lot of cleaners and shelf-stackers have to put up with the inconvenience of being poor for years on end, whereas some stockbrokers are enraged by a mere two or three days of cancelled trains. The public is a mythical entity, apparently quite distinct from nurses, postmen, railway workers, junior barristers and the like. These people cause social disruption, and thus canā€™t be members of the public. Members of the public are the objects of such disruption, not the agents of it. A CEO is a member of the public but an ambulance driver is not.

Strikes are double-edged swords, which hurt those who deploy them. When a manager sacks or disciplines an employee, only the employee suffers, whereas workers who take industrial action may have to diminish their already slim resources in order to try to increment them. Strikes are also purely negative strategies, and trade unions largely defensive bodies. Weā€™re a long way from peasants with pitchforks marching on the lordā€™s castle. Bosses have a number of positive ways of exercising power over their employees: firing them, slashing their pay, cutting their tea breaks, imposing longer hours, speeding up their work and so on. Unions, by contrast, have the single option of withdrawing their labour, which is hardly a revolutionary move. Like those who practise civil disobedience, all they can do is take a stand and cry “Enough!”, aware that they will then be travestied as wreckers and hooligans who are holding the country to ransom.

Their behaviour is not just unprincipled but unpatriotic. Theirs is a strike against the community itself, a case hard to maintain when a lot of the community are also brandishing banners. To walk away from your workbench is to be a bully and a blackmailer. Simply by sitting on your hands, rather than by storming the Treasury or kidnapping merchant bankers, you become an object of odium, not least to the affluent elite whose profits you are putting in peril. Charles Dickens travelled to Preston in the mid-19th century to observe an industrial strike at close quarters, and wrote admiringly of the reasonableness and decency of the working people involved in it. He then produced a novel called Hard Times, which contains one of the most lurid caricatures of trade unionism in Victorian England.

Nobody objects to the right to withhold oneā€™s labour; itā€™s only when it starts to be effective that people fire off letters to the Telegraph. Moves by strikers to lend their cause more impact ā€” linking up different struggles, for example, or striking at certain key moments ā€” are regarded as seizing an unfair advantage, as though itā€™s bad form to overtake another runner in a marathon. By contrast, stockpiling coal to prepare for a minersā€™ strike, as Margaret Thatcher did, is simple common sense. The ideal, surely, is to have a strike which has no effect whatsoever, rather like having a baby that never bawls or a brand of chocolate that is both delicious and slimming.

Few civil rights have been at once so respected in theory and abhorred in practice. The first question a TV journalist tends to ask isnā€™t ā€œWhatā€™s the cause of the dispute?ā€ but ā€œHow can we stop it?ā€ Thereā€™s an entrenched assumption that strikes, like salt or smoking, are bad in themselves ā€” an assumption not shared by those who might benefit enough from them to switch the heating back on from time to time. You canā€™t ban strikes because thatā€™s what fascist societies do, but you canā€™t stomach them either. Fifty years ago, it was customary to decry trade unions as too powerful; but as successive governments have bound them legislatively hand and foot, they have deprived themselves in the process of this reason for harassing them. Not that it was ever a plausible argument in the first place: the muscular capacity of trade unions is nothing compared to the power of capital.

The history of the British working-class movement is not one of wreckage and vandalism. The greatest wave of social protest in the 19th century, the Chartists, worked within the law to press for a set of reasonable reforms of the parliamentary system, almost all of which are now in operation despite being haughtily rejected at the time. Some decades later, the Suffragettes, in spite of being beaten, bludgeoned and force-fed in prison, outmatched the labour movement in their militancy. The General Strike of 1926 lasted for only nine days. From the Peterloo massacre to the dockersā€™ strike of 1898, there was no such reticence on the part of the British state. Instead, there is a sordid history of gagging, police and military violence, imprisonment, transportation and repressive legislation, the last of which, along with occasional outbreaks of state violence, survives to this day.

Even so, the feeling lingers that trade unionism is essentially archaic: an embarrassing hangover from the industrial past, a brake on modernisation, a throwback to the bad old days of class war. (Demanding higher wages is class warfare; refusing them is nothing of the sort.) The idea is that for all the bluster of the union bosses, they are fundamentally conservative creatures. But a dose of conservatism is just what we need. The German philosopher Walter Benjamin remarked that revolution isnā€™t a runaway train; it is the application of the emergency brake. He meant that it was global capitalism which is bucking out of control, and which needs to be restrained before it ruins too many lives. Working-class militants in Victorian Britain were often denounced as anarchists, but the truth is just the opposite.

What they called for was more state intervention, not less, to protect children and paupers and textile workers. The real anarchist is a market-driven society in which nobody is in charge, not even those who gather at Davos each year. (Itā€™s appropriate that Davos is also the location for Thomas Mannā€™s novel The Magic Mountain, set in a sanatorium in which everyone is desperately sick.) When it comes to climate change, it is the Left who are the preservationists and the Masters of the Universe who are the vandals. Capitalism will behave antisocially if it can get away with it and if it is profitable for it to do so. Anyone who sees this as empty sloganising should take a look at food banks in the civil service, not to speak of the continuing devastation of the planet. We still havenā€™t thrown the brake on the runaway train.

There is a curious belief that social disruption is a bad thing in itself. Those who run the Miss World competition took this view of the feminists who noisily interrupted it some years ago, even though their protest was the only interesting aspect of the show. The young man who stood in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square in 1989 and turned himself instantly into a global icon was being politically disruptive, rather like the young women of Iran today. As a school student in Manchester, I saw Jewish men and women with yellow stars stitched on their sleeves lie down in the road to block a march by Oswald Mosley and his British Union of Fascists through a largely black area of the city. Social disruption is not only tolerable but indispensable.

It can, however, be domesticated, as it is in the figure of the Shakespearian Fool. Fools and jesters exist to tell their royal masters unacceptable truths, but wrap them up in riddle and paradox to make them more palatable. Their role is to show how everyone around them is playing a role. The difference is that the Fool knows he is playacting whereas the others donā€™t. But if mocking and scolding others is part of your official brief, it becomes rather more tolerable. ā€œThereā€™s no harm in an allowā€™d Fool,ā€ remarks Olivia in Twelfth Night. Youā€™re only doing your job, as they say. The social system is shaken but not stirred to insurrection. This institutionalised form of rebellion lives on in British politics in the form of the Parliamentary Labour Party, or more generally His Majestyā€™s Loyal Opposition.

Trade unions are more than just a defence against exploitation. The labour movement has traditionally seen itself as offering an alternative form of life to what we have at present, one based on cooperation rather than competition, solidarity rather than individualism. If it is engaged in the present, it also prefigures a different kind of future. How do we stop strikes? By the kind of redistribution of resources which will make them unnecessary. Otherwise weā€™ll carry on with the same old antithesis of private wealth and public squalor.


Terry EagletonĀ is a critic, literary theorist, and UnHerd columnist.


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Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

“Nobody objects to the right to withhold oneā€™s labour”.
Actually, I do. I do not accept that this is an absolute right without any corresponding responsibilities.
If you are a professional and have signed an employment contract to deliver services in return for a salary, then you have accepted responsiblity to deliver those services to the terms of the contract. You also have responsibilities to customers and co-workers.
Of course, if you don’t care about professionalism and taking your responsibilities seriously, that need not concern you.
In my view, it is extremely unwise for professionals like doctors to strike since it fundamentally undermines the professional ethos expected from them. Reputations take years to build and moments to destroy.
Having said all that, I can imagine that in practice it’s not an easy decision for teachers – for example – whether to strike.
But the fundamental reason they lack any negotatiating power is that they still insist on being treated as a mass and not as individuals as in private industry. If they accepted regional/local pay based on individual performance without things like automatic progression pay every year (this apparently still exists in the NHS), then a lot of the problems would go away. Except for the fact that lower performing employees would be paid less.
Since the public sector unions still insist that lower performing employees must be paid the same as higher performers and that they cannot be fired (drunk on the job train drivers seem impossible to dismiss), I suggest that the unions as they currently exist are archaic.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

How would you judge the annual individual pay for a doctor or nurse if you moved away from national pay scales? What metrics, what system, how much time and energy would you spend on this? How many disputes would arise about unfairness etc etc? Junior doctors rotate through their placements and organisations. So we resetting what we pay them every few months? Massive bureaucratic task.
Your point has some theoretical interest, but massively impractical even if we like a bit of the principle.
Bear in mind also GP are private contractors – there is something though in the mechanism via which they are paid. Debate for another time perhaps

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

So what do you suggest?

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago

sorry all for the mess I created below ā€¦

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago

..

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

ā€¦.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

ā€¦.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Sit down quickly and negotiate for a start.

Match the private sector rate of award in arguably equivalent areas given the educational and deferred gratification commitment needed to become a doctor – so Banking industry not a bad comparator. 1-2 year deal initially with commitment to inflation matching going forward.

More fundamentally rapid increase in training places to tackle demand-supply imbalance coupled with student debt alleviation once X years NHS service complete- point being we are losing Docs regularly to Aus, Canada, Middle East etc

This actually doesnā€™t cost as much as we think because we are paying silly agency rates but nonetheless weā€™ve some fiscal headroom given energy costs been lower than expected and interest rates not quite as high as feared. So a choice that can be made.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

In order to avoid the ā€œsweeping generalisationsā€ you chastised me for earlier, the crucial difference is that Bankers* MAKE money, Doctors donā€™t.

Additionally the Public Sector Worker is virtually unsackable and in receipt of magnificent index linked pensions. Thus how is reform even possible?

(* Known to my generation as Money Lenders and they worked in Counting Houses not Banks.)

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

How much money would our economy generate if no doctors? Arguably not much.
Didnā€™t we all bail out the Bankers too?

Reform is poss but you have to engage.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Survival of the fittest?
We had to ā€˜bail outā€™ the bankers!

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I do not think the economy would notice.
It did not seem to during Covid

William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

All over Europe they ave doctors-very few employed by the state

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

They stand on their own feet then unlike our massive public sector.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

They stand on their own feet then unlike our massive public sector.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Survival of the fittest?
We had to ā€˜bail outā€™ the bankers!

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I do not think the economy would notice.
It did not seem to during Covid

William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

All over Europe they ave doctors-very few employed by the state

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

I would imagine that about 20% of government employees are on long-term sick leave with ā€˜mental problemsā€™. Nobody can do anything. As you say, they are unsackable.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

As many as 20%! Why isnā€™t this a national scandal!
And what, if anything is being done about it may I ask?

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

And with big fat pensions at the end what is there to complain about? The real battle to survive is in the private sector in which the wealth of the country depends. The public sector has grown far too fat.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago

Been like that for yearsā€¦.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

And with big fat pensions at the end what is there to complain about? The real battle to survive is in the private sector in which the wealth of the country depends. The public sector has grown far too fat.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago

Been like that for yearsā€¦.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Iā€™m glad youā€™re not in charge

William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

You think 20% one ion five off “sick” is normal ?

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago

He begins his post with ā€˜I would imagineā€™ and then proceeds to refer to ā€˜mental problemsā€™ like a caricature of a spittle-flecked, swivel-eyed loon, and you expect me to take what he says seriously?

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

There used to be a person in every group of (un)civil servants whose job it was to remind members of the group that unless they took their “sick leave” by a certain date they would loose it. At that time (60s) I believe the going rate was 6 weeks per year. presume HR/Union rep now fulfills that function.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

You have no way of knowing whether what you are saying is true or not and as such you are simply polishing petty minded prejudice

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

He is near the truth. I have heard all this which was happening 30 years ago as well. I forgot all about it until it was brought up. They have it very cushy.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

I know is true – and more besides – heard from the horses mouth ā€¦.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

He is near the truth. I have heard all this which was happening 30 years ago as well. I forgot all about it until it was brought up. They have it very cushy.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

I know is true – and more besides – heard from the horses mouth ā€¦.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

Yeah. It used to be fifteen days but many of them use it for extra holiday and not taking it off shows the others up so there is pressure to take it as well as holidays.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

Yes that was common practise ā€¦

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

You have no way of knowing whether what you are saying is true or not and as such you are simply polishing petty minded prejudice

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

Yeah. It used to be fifteen days but many of them use it for extra holiday and not taking it off shows the others up so there is pressure to take it as well as holidays.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

Yes that was common practise ā€¦

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

There is some truth in what he says. I know it first hand through living in a civil service hostel.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

There used to be a person in every group of (un)civil servants whose job it was to remind members of the group that unless they took their “sick leave” by a certain date they would loose it. At that time (60s) I believe the going rate was 6 weeks per year. presume HR/Union rep now fulfills that function.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

There is some truth in what he says. I know it first hand through living in a civil service hostel.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

They are off sick as they have so many weeks sick leave to use if they are sick but of course many take it off anyway as they don’t need to make a profit. That’s the private sectors job.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago

He begins his post with ā€˜I would imagineā€™ and then proceeds to refer to ā€˜mental problemsā€™ like a caricature of a spittle-flecked, swivel-eyed loon, and you expect me to take what he says seriously?

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

They are off sick as they have so many weeks sick leave to use if they are sick but of course many take it off anyway as they don’t need to make a profit. That’s the private sectors job.

William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

You think 20% one ion five off “sick” is normal ?

John Howes
John Howes
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I would challenge that as a former HR manager and a Full Time Trade Union officer, they are frustrating their contract, ā€œFrustration of contractā€ is a legal concept. It refers to an event which: (1) wasnā€™t reasonably foreseeable at the point the contract was formed; (2) isnā€™t under the direct control of either party; and (3) makes any further performance of the contract, as it was originally intended to operate, impossible. Where these three factors exist together, a contract can be lawfully terminated. In the employment context, this means there would be no actual dismissal, i.e. there wouldnā€™t be an event to pin an unfair dismissal claim on.Whether the cause be organic Cancer, etc, or non organic (all in the mind”. Ergo fair dimissal is an option, it requires the will of the omployer.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  John Howes

I used to work with a rehab company that also had public sector clients. They used to roll their eyes when the public sector cropped up in conversation. If someone did not want to go back to work there was little that could be done to make them and their employment was rarely, if ever, terminated

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

They are unsackable with gold plated pensions regardless of ability.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

They are unsackable with gold plated pensions regardless of ability.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  John Howes

Thereā€™s a whole raft of ailments at the disposal of malingerers (eg whiplash) – in any sector – and quoting legalese doesnā€™t alter that.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  John Howes

I used to work with a rehab company that also had public sector clients. They used to roll their eyes when the public sector cropped up in conversation. If someone did not want to go back to work there was little that could be done to make them and their employment was rarely, if ever, terminated

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  John Howes

Thereā€™s a whole raft of ailments at the disposal of malingerers (eg whiplash) – in any sector – and quoting legalese doesnā€™t alter that.

Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I would imagine itā€™s 219%.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

They are given so many weeks sick leave in addition to holidays and a large number take their sick leave as an entitlement without being sick. They live in the cradle to grave culture risk free.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Given the excellent terms and conditions enjoyed from the cleaner up (never factored into wage comparisons thrown around by unions representing the public sector) itā€™s a no brainier for the cunning to take advantage of, for example, the generous sick leave and other ā€˜perksā€™ā€¦..

Eryl Balazs
Eryl Balazs
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

This is not a fact. I ve worked all over public sector. We get v concerned if its over 5%. I work with lots of contractors, who have similar rates. Performance management has radically changed over the last 15 years.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

As many as 20%! Why isnā€™t this a national scandal!
And what, if anything is being done about it may I ask?

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Iā€™m glad youā€™re not in charge

John Howes
John Howes
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I would challenge that as a former HR manager and a Full Time Trade Union officer, they are frustrating their contract, ā€œFrustration of contractā€ is a legal concept. It refers to an event which: (1) wasnā€™t reasonably foreseeable at the point the contract was formed; (2) isnā€™t under the direct control of either party; and (3) makes any further performance of the contract, as it was originally intended to operate, impossible. Where these three factors exist together, a contract can be lawfully terminated. In the employment context, this means there would be no actual dismissal, i.e. there wouldnā€™t be an event to pin an unfair dismissal claim on.Whether the cause be organic Cancer, etc, or non organic (all in the mind”. Ergo fair dimissal is an option, it requires the will of the omployer.

Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I would imagine itā€™s 219%.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

They are given so many weeks sick leave in addition to holidays and a large number take their sick leave as an entitlement without being sick. They live in the cradle to grave culture risk free.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Given the excellent terms and conditions enjoyed from the cleaner up (never factored into wage comparisons thrown around by unions representing the public sector) itā€™s a no brainier for the cunning to take advantage of, for example, the generous sick leave and other ā€˜perksā€™ā€¦..

Eryl Balazs
Eryl Balazs
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

This is not a fact. I ve worked all over public sector. We get v concerned if its over 5%. I work with lots of contractors, who have similar rates. Performance management has radically changed over the last 15 years.

Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
1 year ago

Bankers create no wealth. Goods and services are created elsewhere, by workers and entrepreneurs.

In fact they may well destroy wealth and income by creating a bubble where the losses are socialised.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Don’t bankers do loans and pensions and insurance and all the money things we need though too?
Not saying they did a good job. Things just blow up all over the place at the moment, but all systems and businesses have risks.

Ian L
Ian L
1 year ago

I agree, they create no wealth except for themselves. I was recently surprised to discover that banks literally create money when a mortgage debt is incurred. The mortgage deed that is signed is the credit thatā€™s created, which they then lend back to you at compound interest for 25 years.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Don’t bankers do loans and pensions and insurance and all the money things we need though too?
Not saying they did a good job. Things just blow up all over the place at the moment, but all systems and businesses have risks.

Ian L
Ian L
1 year ago

I agree, they create no wealth except for themselves. I was recently surprised to discover that banks literally create money when a mortgage debt is incurred. The mortgage deed that is signed is the credit thatā€™s created, which they then lend back to you at compound interest for 25 years.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

Pensions in the Public Sector are four times greater comparitively than the private sector and are safe with no risk through our taxes. All public sectors workers have that benefit. Yes banks make money like all industry in the private sector where their taxes support the public sector. They call it public sector gold plated pensions I believe thoroughly protected by the government.

Eryl Balazs
Eryl Balazs
1 year ago

Bankers make money? To a point, they want alot in return. How is wealth created, is one of the key questions for these strikes. Who keeps citizens well, educated, keeps us safe, runs whats left of our civic society.
The people who now enter these professions(where there is no bonus related pay), hock themselves into min. 50 to 70k debt for the privilege. That’s why you have strikes along with over 9% inflation for 2 years running.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

How much money would our economy generate if no doctors? Arguably not much.
Didnā€™t we all bail out the Bankers too?

Reform is poss but you have to engage.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

I would imagine that about 20% of government employees are on long-term sick leave with ā€˜mental problemsā€™. Nobody can do anything. As you say, they are unsackable.

Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
1 year ago

Bankers create no wealth. Goods and services are created elsewhere, by workers and entrepreneurs.

In fact they may well destroy wealth and income by creating a bubble where the losses are socialised.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

Pensions in the Public Sector are four times greater comparitively than the private sector and are safe with no risk through our taxes. All public sectors workers have that benefit. Yes banks make money like all industry in the private sector where their taxes support the public sector. They call it public sector gold plated pensions I believe thoroughly protected by the government.

Eryl Balazs
Eryl Balazs
1 year ago

Bankers make money? To a point, they want alot in return. How is wealth created, is one of the key questions for these strikes. Who keeps citizens well, educated, keeps us safe, runs whats left of our civic society.
The people who now enter these professions(where there is no bonus related pay), hock themselves into min. 50 to 70k debt for the privilege. That’s why you have strikes along with over 9% inflation for 2 years running.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I have a problem with this idea of ā€˜negotiationā€™. If A wants a pay rise because A feels poor at the moment and A earns Ā£30,000pa but B earns Ā£40,000 and still wants a pay rise – are you allowed to talk about pensions?
I worked in the private sector and earned more money than in the public sector but with a minimal pension. In theory, I should have saved for the future whilst those in the public sector didnā€™t have to save because they could look forward to a fabulous pension.
Today, the public sector unions argue that their pension canā€™t even be considered in pay negotiations.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

You have to opt in to a public sector pension and make contributions. Itā€™s not free. Itā€™s just a different form of saving.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Wrong. Your pension is inflated by an equal payment from the employer. You pay Ā£1 and your employer pays Ā£1. That is a perk. Both sets of contributions are tax free and that is another perk. If you retire, your pension is underwritten by the government – another perk.
You have obviously been receiving these perks without understanding what they mean. You could work for a private employer who does not offer such a system. Then you have to choose your own way of getting a pension but this will depend on movements of stocks and shares – you could lose it all.
Or you could have a reasonable pension but the contributors stop contributing. Your pension reduces or can, in theory, go to nothing.
The government-backed pension is such a perk that it is obscene. But those that have it say the same, you have to pay so it is not free.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Wheatley
Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Chris, whatever happened to “Workplace” pensions which, I understand, had to be offered to an employee within a short (specified) time after starting work? PS I retired (as an employer) just before they were introduced. Question open to all especially those with special knowledge. ex HR?

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

Workplace pensions are subject to market movements. They’re not defined benefit.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Pingel

Workplace pensions are subject to market movements. They’re not defined benefit.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Chris, whatever happened to “Workplace” pensions which, I understand, had to be offered to an employee within a short (specified) time after starting work? PS I retired (as an employer) just before they were introduced. Question open to all especially those with special knowledge. ex HR?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Those ā€˜contributionsā€™ are MINUSCULE in comparison to the Private Sector, as you well know!

Iain Hotchkies
Iain Hotchkies
1 year ago

The GPs you deride pay 22% of their income (both the employer and employee contributions) for their lovely pension.
Few who pay such a large proportion of their salary over, say, 30 years, would not end up with a decent pension.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Iain Hotchkies

I am so sorry, I was under the misapprehension that GPā€™s were self-employed.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

Exactly.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

Exactly.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Iain Hotchkies

I am so sorry, I was under the misapprehension that GPā€™s were self-employed.

Iain Hotchkies
Iain Hotchkies
1 year ago

The GPs you deride pay 22% of their income (both the employer and employee contributions) for their lovely pension.
Few who pay such a large proportion of their salary over, say, 30 years, would not end up with a decent pension.

William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

The employers contributions are large and a major part of public sector pay.

Jeff Dudgeon
Jeff Dudgeon
1 year ago

Public sector employers pay vastly more into employees pensions than private sector adding some 30% to overall income.

Jeff Dudgeon
Jeff Dudgeon
1 year ago

Public sector employers pay vastly more into employees pensions than private sector adding some 30% to overall income.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Wrong. Your pension is inflated by an equal payment from the employer. You pay Ā£1 and your employer pays Ā£1. That is a perk. Both sets of contributions are tax free and that is another perk. If you retire, your pension is underwritten by the government – another perk.
You have obviously been receiving these perks without understanding what they mean. You could work for a private employer who does not offer such a system. Then you have to choose your own way of getting a pension but this will depend on movements of stocks and shares – you could lose it all.
Or you could have a reasonable pension but the contributors stop contributing. Your pension reduces or can, in theory, go to nothing.
The government-backed pension is such a perk that it is obscene. But those that have it say the same, you have to pay so it is not free.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Wheatley
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Those ā€˜contributionsā€™ are MINUSCULE in comparison to the Private Sector, as you well know!

William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

The employers contributions are large and a major part of public sector pay.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Public sector pensions are a shadow of what they once were. You wonā€™t find anybody who started in the public sector within the last 20 years on a final salary scheme anymore

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

But it’s not like all the other ones have died off. They’re still living it up without having to work.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

But it’s not like all the other ones have died off. They’re still living it up without having to work.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

So many teachers I have met were early retirees and most were enjoying life to the full by virtue of a generous state pension.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

You have to opt in to a public sector pension and make contributions. Itā€™s not free. Itā€™s just a different form of saving.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Public sector pensions are a shadow of what they once were. You wonā€™t find anybody who started in the public sector within the last 20 years on a final salary scheme anymore

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

So many teachers I have met were early retirees and most were enjoying life to the full by virtue of a generous state pension.

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Agency rates include the the total cost of employment otherwise paid by the employer, often up to an additional 20% (like NICS, pensions, bonuses, expenses, holiday and sick pay, insurances and recruitment costs). Agency staff pay has to cover holidays, sickness, their pensions and travel expenses.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

In order to avoid the ā€œsweeping generalisationsā€ you chastised me for earlier, the crucial difference is that Bankers* MAKE money, Doctors donā€™t.

Additionally the Public Sector Worker is virtually unsackable and in receipt of magnificent index linked pensions. Thus how is reform even possible?

(* Known to my generation as Money Lenders and they worked in Counting Houses not Banks.)

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I have a problem with this idea of ā€˜negotiationā€™. If A wants a pay rise because A feels poor at the moment and A earns Ā£30,000pa but B earns Ā£40,000 and still wants a pay rise – are you allowed to talk about pensions?
I worked in the private sector and earned more money than in the public sector but with a minimal pension. In theory, I should have saved for the future whilst those in the public sector didnā€™t have to save because they could look forward to a fabulous pension.
Today, the public sector unions argue that their pension canā€™t even be considered in pay negotiations.

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Agency rates include the the total cost of employment otherwise paid by the employer, often up to an additional 20% (like NICS, pensions, bonuses, expenses, holiday and sick pay, insurances and recruitment costs). Agency staff pay has to cover holidays, sickness, their pensions and travel expenses.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago

sorry all for the mess I created below ā€¦

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago

..

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Sit down quickly and negotiate for a start.

Match the private sector rate of award in arguably equivalent areas given the educational and deferred gratification commitment needed to become a doctor – so Banking industry not a bad comparator. 1-2 year deal initially with commitment to inflation matching going forward.

More fundamentally rapid increase in training places to tackle demand-supply imbalance coupled with student debt alleviation once X years NHS service complete- point being we are losing Docs regularly to Aus, Canada, Middle East etc

This actually doesnā€™t cost as much as we think because we are paying silly agency rates but nonetheless weā€™ve some fiscal headroom given energy costs been lower than expected and interest rates not quite as high as feared. So a choice that can be made.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I accept there are practical challenges here.
On the other hand, we’ve lived for at least five decades with a healthcare system in which junior doctors are massively overworked – I recall reports of 80 hour weeks being worked in the past – and there has been little serious effort made to rectify this. Quite how having overworked and tired doctors is safe for patients (and the doctors themselves) has always eluded me.
The fact that such things persist tells me the current system is poorly managed and structured and that something needs to change. As does the absurd cap on doctors training and persistent need to import labour. We need to recognise these things as the bugs that they are and not simply features.
I’m not going to attempt to work out how pay should be managed in the NHS. It’s not easy. But there are enough people employed already to do this. Probably too many.
I might observe here that there’s a massive bureaucracy already on hand to deal with the massive bureaucratic task ! But in my experience, massive bureaucracies create at least as many problems as they solve.
On “fairness” (a term which is never defined by those who use it), there is nothing particularly fair in my book about paying a large group of people the same regardless of their actual contribution.

Wendy Barton
Wendy Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

My daughter is a recently qualified doctor here in the UK, and has been very well trained as part of her medical training in the importance of not being overworked.  All good, no-one wants to be faced with a doctor who is too tired to make a proper diagnosis or treatment decision.  The upshot is that the workload that and I and her brother (both solicitors) think is entirely normal, she would think is intolerable. 

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Wendy Barton

Very pleased to hear that. And please don’t read my comments as being anti-doctor – that’s not really my intent.
I also hope that the absurd pension lifetime allowance gets raised tomorrow. For everyone – not just the doctors. But one of the most stupid and short-sighted policy errors of recent years to actively encourage doctors to retire early when we don’t have enough and many wish to continue working. No one should have to pay more than 50% effective (or marginal rate) income tax. Certainly no doctor.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

If you got the public sector pensions pro rata you would be over the moon.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

If you got the public sector pensions pro rata you would be over the moon.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Wendy Barton

Very pleased to hear that. And please don’t read my comments as being anti-doctor – that’s not really my intent.
I also hope that the absurd pension lifetime allowance gets raised tomorrow. For everyone – not just the doctors. But one of the most stupid and short-sighted policy errors of recent years to actively encourage doctors to retire early when we don’t have enough and many wish to continue working. No one should have to pay more than 50% effective (or marginal rate) income tax. Certainly no doctor.

Wendy Barton
Wendy Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

My daughter is a recently qualified doctor here in the UK, and has been very well trained as part of her medical training in the importance of not being overworked.  All good, no-one wants to be faced with a doctor who is too tired to make a proper diagnosis or treatment decision.  The upshot is that the workload that and I and her brother (both solicitors) think is entirely normal, she would think is intolerable. 

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Large organisations do this all the time. If you want answers to your questions, take the time look at how they do this. That would be better than asking others to explain it to you

Rob Nock
Rob Nock
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

I think large organisations are very much part of the problem. If, for example, each hospital was its own employer /business then it would set its own pay scales to match its area, demand etc. If the staff at another hospital were unhappy with their pay they could change jobs, employer, strike etc.

The problem basically is rigid inflexible pay and employment conditions due to national scales, employers etc. And organisations being too big to fail.

Smaller is almost always, in the medium to long term, better even if sometimes less efficient on the surface.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Nock

Itā€™s tricky finding right balance for sure.
What public wouldnā€™t easily accept is the impact of more wage rate local freedom as some places would win and others lose meaning hospitals would close. Furthermore we need to close the demand-supply gap a bit more first or wages just go one way.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Nock

Maybe the private insurance model would work better where the doctors seek the patients?

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Nock

Itā€™s tricky finding right balance for sure.
What public wouldnā€™t easily accept is the impact of more wage rate local freedom as some places would win and others lose meaning hospitals would close. Furthermore we need to close the demand-supply gap a bit more first or wages just go one way.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Nock

Maybe the private insurance model would work better where the doctors seek the patients?

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

The rules are different in the public sector. Everyone is cushioned by union rights.

Rob Nock
Rob Nock
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

I think large organisations are very much part of the problem. If, for example, each hospital was its own employer /business then it would set its own pay scales to match its area, demand etc. If the staff at another hospital were unhappy with their pay they could change jobs, employer, strike etc.

The problem basically is rigid inflexible pay and employment conditions due to national scales, employers etc. And organisations being too big to fail.

Smaller is almost always, in the medium to long term, better even if sometimes less efficient on the surface.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

The rules are different in the public sector. Everyone is cushioned by union rights.

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

We cannot make any judgement about their pay because we have no idea about cost of any NHS treatment.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

Wages are part of cost and the rest is bought by the state and financed by government from our taxes.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

Wages are part of cost and the rest is bought by the state and financed by government from our taxes.

Steven Farrall
Steven Farrall
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Well, that’s an easy one. De-nationalise health industry and let the market (i.e. me and you and the doctors) sort out what their actual value is. What value they add.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steven Farrall
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Farrall

Decide what their value is? How much money would you put towards trying to save yours or a family member’s life if they had something life-threatening? Priceless is how much their value is. And who will decide how much that comes to in monetery terms? The richest of us.
I live in the Netherlands (supposedly a shining beacon of state-supported private healthcare) and have already been advised to call an uber instead of an ambulance in case of an emergency to avoid the 800 euro ‘eigen risico’ costs that would be incurred if I called one.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Farrall

Something has to happen as it certainly is not working.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Farrall

Decide what their value is? How much money would you put towards trying to save yours or a family member’s life if they had something life-threatening? Priceless is how much their value is. And who will decide how much that comes to in monetery terms? The richest of us.
I live in the Netherlands (supposedly a shining beacon of state-supported private healthcare) and have already been advised to call an uber instead of an ambulance in case of an emergency to avoid the 800 euro ‘eigen risico’ costs that would be incurred if I called one.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Farrall

Something has to happen as it certainly is not working.

William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

The Doctors problem is having a monopoly employer the NHS. If they were self employed like real professionals – or Doctors in Europe -they would be paid the market rate.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

GPs are the ultimate rent-seekers. They get paid for having us on their books whether they treat us or not. That’s why my GP (who works part-time) is ‘unable’ to provide an appointment within the next fortnight and can’t book one after that because ‘computer says no’.
‘Stuff their mouths with gold’, said Nye Bevan. ‘And every other orifice too!’, said Tony Blair, and proceeded to do just that.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

No – the ultimate rent seekers are people who collect rent.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

No – the ultimate rent seekers are people who collect rent.

jo O'Byrne
jo O'Byrne
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

If the private sector pay more how can the ideologue above criticise Capitalists? More to the point the NHS was 100 years behind Great Western Railway

Https:/www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/2370272.nhs-born-in-gwr-hospital/

The NHS is a sacred cow it needs putting down.It is also the means NOT the end, the end was health care free at the point of delivery AND it can’t even manage that.

As my 90 year old uncle observed during lockdown. We fought for an NHS to save us, not for us to save it

Hancock destroyed much of the hysteria around the NHS masks etc. Perhaps not forcing staff out if they refused the vaccines might have helped – then given the NHS IC beds were offered to the French was there ever an NHS overwhelmed crisis? Not according to some family members who actually worked there during the pandemic

The best one can say about the NHS is the outsourcing bits work well, what’s left may just pass muster as an Emergency service

Last edited 1 year ago by jo O'Byrne
Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Here’s a start – a close family member, a senior surgeon, only found out that he’d been working 1.5x the average, in his dept, for the same salary, once he became director of surgery & so had access to the numbers. For years the managers had been too weak to sort this out, and just allowed the lazy ones to get away with it – at direct cost to the hard workers. This is entirely typical of NHS ‘management’.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I am not sure if junior doctors are private contractors. They are still under training but when they have finished training they will be into quite big money. In line with the proverbial song “I want it now” in Charlies Chocolate Factory it appears very selfish to me.

David Giles
David Giles
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Who need to “judge” it? Junior doctors are hot-footing it to Australia and Canada as soon as they can for the money. And good luck to them. This will keep happening until junior doctors gst pad more here. When the employer decides he’s had enough of losing his valuable employees, he’ll pay them more. Sorted; no “judgement” required.
But don’t worry. You just sit there and spend hours mulling over the complicated judgment you think is required.

Liam F
Liam F
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

How would you judge pay for an individual? The same way as everyone else does it across many industries – based on individual performance. It’s the norm: but you make it sound like it’s unmanageable.
There is nothing so unfair as the equal treatment of people with unequal capabilities. Treating a mass of people as one guarantees the lowest performance possible.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

So what do you suggest?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I accept there are practical challenges here.
On the other hand, we’ve lived for at least five decades with a healthcare system in which junior doctors are massively overworked – I recall reports of 80 hour weeks being worked in the past – and there has been little serious effort made to rectify this. Quite how having overworked and tired doctors is safe for patients (and the doctors themselves) has always eluded me.
The fact that such things persist tells me the current system is poorly managed and structured and that something needs to change. As does the absurd cap on doctors training and persistent need to import labour. We need to recognise these things as the bugs that they are and not simply features.
I’m not going to attempt to work out how pay should be managed in the NHS. It’s not easy. But there are enough people employed already to do this. Probably too many.
I might observe here that there’s a massive bureaucracy already on hand to deal with the massive bureaucratic task ! But in my experience, massive bureaucracies create at least as many problems as they solve.
On “fairness” (a term which is never defined by those who use it), there is nothing particularly fair in my book about paying a large group of people the same regardless of their actual contribution.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Large organisations do this all the time. If you want answers to your questions, take the time look at how they do this. That would be better than asking others to explain it to you

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

We cannot make any judgement about their pay because we have no idea about cost of any NHS treatment.

Steven Farrall
Steven Farrall
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Well, that’s an easy one. De-nationalise health industry and let the market (i.e. me and you and the doctors) sort out what their actual value is. What value they add.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steven Farrall
William Cameron
William Cameron
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

The Doctors problem is having a monopoly employer the NHS. If they were self employed like real professionals – or Doctors in Europe -they would be paid the market rate.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

GPs are the ultimate rent-seekers. They get paid for having us on their books whether they treat us or not. That’s why my GP (who works part-time) is ‘unable’ to provide an appointment within the next fortnight and can’t book one after that because ‘computer says no’.
‘Stuff their mouths with gold’, said Nye Bevan. ‘And every other orifice too!’, said Tony Blair, and proceeded to do just that.

jo O'Byrne
jo O'Byrne
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

If the private sector pay more how can the ideologue above criticise Capitalists? More to the point the NHS was 100 years behind Great Western Railway

Https:/www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/2370272.nhs-born-in-gwr-hospital/

The NHS is a sacred cow it needs putting down.It is also the means NOT the end, the end was health care free at the point of delivery AND it can’t even manage that.

As my 90 year old uncle observed during lockdown. We fought for an NHS to save us, not for us to save it

Hancock destroyed much of the hysteria around the NHS masks etc. Perhaps not forcing staff out if they refused the vaccines might have helped – then given the NHS IC beds were offered to the French was there ever an NHS overwhelmed crisis? Not according to some family members who actually worked there during the pandemic

The best one can say about the NHS is the outsourcing bits work well, what’s left may just pass muster as an Emergency service

Last edited 1 year ago by jo O'Byrne
Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Here’s a start – a close family member, a senior surgeon, only found out that he’d been working 1.5x the average, in his dept, for the same salary, once he became director of surgery & so had access to the numbers. For years the managers had been too weak to sort this out, and just allowed the lazy ones to get away with it – at direct cost to the hard workers. This is entirely typical of NHS ‘management’.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I am not sure if junior doctors are private contractors. They are still under training but when they have finished training they will be into quite big money. In line with the proverbial song “I want it now” in Charlies Chocolate Factory it appears very selfish to me.

David Giles
David Giles
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Who need to “judge” it? Junior doctors are hot-footing it to Australia and Canada as soon as they can for the money. And good luck to them. This will keep happening until junior doctors gst pad more here. When the employer decides he’s had enough of losing his valuable employees, he’ll pay them more. Sorted; no “judgement” required.
But don’t worry. You just sit there and spend hours mulling over the complicated judgment you think is required.

Liam F
Liam F
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

How would you judge pay for an individual? The same way as everyone else does it across many industries – based on individual performance. It’s the norm: but you make it sound like it’s unmanageable.
There is nothing so unfair as the equal treatment of people with unequal capabilities. Treating a mass of people as one guarantees the lowest performance possible.

Charlie Two
Charlie Two
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

where did they dig up the prat who wrote this article. utter drivel from start to finish. as an employer i cant cut their tea breaks, slash their pay, torture, murder blah blah etc that this pseudo intellectual claims i can. i’m guessing he’s never had a proper job before, or indeed anything remotely resembling one. uni lecturer perhaps?

Atticus Basilhoff
Atticus Basilhoff
1 year ago
Reply to  Charlie Two

How sad when one considers how low we have come to be when it is at the very least improper, and in most cases illegal, to torture, murder and impoverish those in your employment. In the mind of the average leftist prole, that behavior is manifest in the comportment of management. Oh, to have lived the life of a shop keeper in Dickensian England.

Mel Shaw
Mel Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Charlie Two

You beat me to it. He has a 19th century idea of the powers of the boss. Try any of the things he lists and spend months in employment tribunals.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Mel Shaw

He went overboard, but what’s your evidence that conditions are getting better for workers? Stagnant wages, precarious contracts, money lost to landlords who do next to nothing for it. There is a working class in this country and just because it delivers food and serves coffee or stacks amazon warehouses (perhaps all whilst being university educated) doesn’t mean it should not have solidarity with those on the shrinking factory floors (shrinking because our government seems so happy for Britain to produce less and less of its own goods through fewer and fewer decent jobs for its own people)

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Mel Shaw

He went overboard, but what’s your evidence that conditions are getting better for workers? Stagnant wages, precarious contracts, money lost to landlords who do next to nothing for it. There is a working class in this country and just because it delivers food and serves coffee or stacks amazon warehouses (perhaps all whilst being university educated) doesn’t mean it should not have solidarity with those on the shrinking factory floors (shrinking because our government seems so happy for Britain to produce less and less of its own goods through fewer and fewer decent jobs for its own people)

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Charlie Two

He’s an old-school ex-Oxford professor, steeped in Marxist ideology, as many of his counterparts at Oxbridge are/were and some ended up being outed as spies for the Soviet Union.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Cambridge did better, it must be said.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

If you can see the above comment Steve, I’m now waiting for you to tell me what I am. A snivelling snowflake socialist no doubt, who doesn’t care about his own country?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Cambridge did better, it must be said.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

If you can see the above comment Steve, I’m now waiting for you to tell me what I am. A snivelling snowflake socialist no doubt, who doesn’t care about his own country?

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
1 year ago
Reply to  Charlie Two

He’s a ‘literary theorist’, whatever that may be. I’m sure it’s a proper job.

Atticus Basilhoff
Atticus Basilhoff
1 year ago
Reply to  Charlie Two

How sad when one considers how low we have come to be when it is at the very least improper, and in most cases illegal, to torture, murder and impoverish those in your employment. In the mind of the average leftist prole, that behavior is manifest in the comportment of management. Oh, to have lived the life of a shop keeper in Dickensian England.

Mel Shaw
Mel Shaw
1 year ago
Reply to  Charlie Two

You beat me to it. He has a 19th century idea of the powers of the boss. Try any of the things he lists and spend months in employment tribunals.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Charlie Two

He’s an old-school ex-Oxford professor, steeped in Marxist ideology, as many of his counterparts at Oxbridge are/were and some ended up being outed as spies for the Soviet Union.

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
1 year ago
Reply to  Charlie Two

He’s a ‘literary theorist’, whatever that may be. I’m sure it’s a proper job.

Michael James
Michael James
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Some public sector workers have no right to strike. I think none of them should have that right, since they are employed by the public, who often can access no alternative service providers. If private sector workers strike, they harm their employers but the public can access alternative suppliers.

Last edited 1 year ago by Michael James
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael James

Unluckily for you most people recognise that doctors should be paid a proper amount and have decent working conditions and so support the strike – the more strikes succeed, the more likely it is that other sectors will follow suit and demand higher wages. Now *that’s* a tide that raises all boats. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/majority-of-public-support-junior-doctors-ahead-of-first-full-walkout-poll-shows-a7000751.html

Michael James
Michael James
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

I can imagine the dying words of untreated patients: ‘Pay the doctors more!’

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael James

And your explanation for the widespread public support of this strike? I can’t see the counter-example to this (‘Pay the doctors less so even more of them give up on the NHS and go private’) being the likelier scenario..

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael James

And your explanation for the widespread public support of this strike? I can’t see the counter-example to this (‘Pay the doctors less so even more of them give up on the NHS and go private’) being the likelier scenario..

Michael James
Michael James
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

I can imagine the dying words of untreated patients: ‘Pay the doctors more!’

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael James

Unluckily for you most people recognise that doctors should be paid a proper amount and have decent working conditions and so support the strike – the more strikes succeed, the more likely it is that other sectors will follow suit and demand higher wages. Now *that’s* a tide that raises all boats. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/majority-of-public-support-junior-doctors-ahead-of-first-full-walkout-poll-shows-a7000751.html

M Lux
M Lux
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Spoken like a 1 percenter.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  M Lux

Sadly not.
But if I were, I’d be paying a shedload of tax supporting government spending and public services. I suggest you check again the real breakdown of tax contributions versus income bands before you go on insulting the people who pay the bills.

M Lux
M Lux
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Pay the bills you say? Hmm, maybe there wouldn’t be strikes OR giant holes in national budgets if the top 1(0)% actually paid what they owe, as opposed to squirrelling it away in tax havens or using it for tax free “philanthropy” (i.e. influence operations or legal slush funds).
Also, I find it funny that you speak of insulting people when you come across like some medieval lord complaining about his ungrateful serfs in that comment, apparently assuming that everyone should be there at your beck and call.
Not everyone works in tech and gets money stuffed down their gullet.
However, that doesn’t mean people who don’t make 100k or whatever don’t deserve a living wage and decent working conditions, even if you’ve never been in a situation where you had to fight for that.

Last edited 1 year ago by M Lux
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  M Lux

You know nothing about me, my history or circumstances. It’s unwise to make so many assumptions about other people’s beliefs and situation. There are numerous errors in what you assumed about me. I could tell you that my father was unemployed for 2 years when I was at school, but I suspect you wouldn’t believe me.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  M Lux

You know nothing about me, my history or circumstances. It’s unwise to make so many assumptions about other people’s beliefs and situation. There are numerous errors in what you assumed about me. I could tell you that my father was unemployed for 2 years when I was at school, but I suspect you wouldn’t believe me.

M Lux
M Lux
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Pay the bills you say? Hmm, maybe there wouldn’t be strikes OR giant holes in national budgets if the top 1(0)% actually paid what they owe, as opposed to squirrelling it away in tax havens or using it for tax free “philanthropy” (i.e. influence operations or legal slush funds).
Also, I find it funny that you speak of insulting people when you come across like some medieval lord complaining about his ungrateful serfs in that comment, apparently assuming that everyone should be there at your beck and call.
Not everyone works in tech and gets money stuffed down their gullet.
However, that doesn’t mean people who don’t make 100k or whatever don’t deserve a living wage and decent working conditions, even if you’ve never been in a situation where you had to fight for that.

Last edited 1 year ago by M Lux
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  M Lux

Sadly not.
But if I were, I’d be paying a shedload of tax supporting government spending and public services. I suggest you check again the real breakdown of tax contributions versus income bands before you go on insulting the people who pay the bills.

Russell Caplan
Russell Caplan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Typical neo-liberal nonsense, that denies the collective, social nature of work, in pursuit of greed and profit. As a trade unionist and university lecturer now retired I spent years fighting this clap trap that sought to reduce academics to the parlous state that private industry has succeeded in doing as a consequence of breaking the unions.
Divide and rule has always been the way of the bosses if they could get away with it. And get away with it they have for far too long. Doctors, nurses, ambulance workers, teachers, academics, railway workers, civil servants, BT engineers and more are finally discovering the collective power of the mass.
This advantage should not be squandered. The greed this government oversees rewarding their corporate cronies in the private sector despite their underperformance needs to be reversed so that all the workers can be paid a decent living wage. And this will only be achieved through such struggle as mass strikes.
The Guardian reported the Health Secretary claiming the 26% pay demand by junior doctors was unaffordable because it would add Ā£2bln to the public purse that would threaten the government’s efforts to control inflation. But the Defence Secretary has been given another Ā£2bln to replenish ammunition stocks that have been shipped off to Ukraine. A more perverse moral logic you could not make up, even if you tried. Inflation is acceptable when it comes to killing people in Ukraine, but unacceptable when it comes to paying the people who save lives and treat the sick in the UK!

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

The article is anti- capitalist, which makes me laugh. Capitalism is just barter. There is no other way of valuing human endeavour.

Striking is bartering but it does hold the whole public to ransom when it comes to essential public services.

What will junior doctors think of future generations of doctors who ask for more pay and less work than their predecessors, when they’re older and need more medical services? Why don’t they realise that the more they get for less work, the less doctors a free public system can afford to hire………

The reasons that Australian doctors are better paid and health insurance is more affordable is that it is a mixed public/private system with more money per capita going into healthcare.

Russell Caplan
Russell Caplan
1 year ago
Reply to  Deb Grant

If Cuba can provide the most number of doctors per capita than any other country in the world, despite the criminal blockade and sanctions the US imposes on it, then this bogus argument about public/ private is just not credible.
If we have money to waste on killing people in Ukraine then we should not even be having this debate. There is plenty money. This country is awash with money, We are the seventh richest country in the world. Yet we put up with government that imposes a scarcity of medical resources on the public because it does not really believe health care is a public good. If it could get away with privatising it, it would.
Our government looks to the failing health care rip off system in the US as its preferred model where the health care corporations and their oligarchs make a killing at the expense of the public.
Private health care is an insult to humanity and an ethical abomination. It should be banned. If Cuba can provide doctors to serve its own public, with spare to provide essential humanitarian aid abroad, then so can the UK.

Russell Caplan
Russell Caplan
1 year ago
Reply to  Deb Grant

If Cuba can provide the most number of doctors per capita than any other country in the world, despite the criminal blockade and sanctions the US imposes on it, then this bogus argument about public/ private is just not credible.
If we have money to waste on killing people in Ukraine then we should not even be having this debate. There is plenty money. This country is awash with money, We are the seventh richest country in the world. Yet we put up with government that imposes a scarcity of medical resources on the public because it does not really believe health care is a public good. If it could get away with privatising it, it would.
Our government looks to the failing health care rip off system in the US as its preferred model where the health care corporations and their oligarchs make a killing at the expense of the public.
Private health care is an insult to humanity and an ethical abomination. It should be banned. If Cuba can provide doctors to serve its own public, with spare to provide essential humanitarian aid abroad, then so can the UK.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

How would you judge the annual individual pay for a doctor or nurse if you moved away from national pay scales? What metrics, what system, how much time and energy would you spend on this? How many disputes would arise about unfairness etc etc? Junior doctors rotate through their placements and organisations. So we resetting what we pay them every few months? Massive bureaucratic task.
Your point has some theoretical interest, but massively impractical even if we like a bit of the principle.
Bear in mind also GP are private contractors – there is something though in the mechanism via which they are paid. Debate for another time perhaps

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Charlie Two
Charlie Two
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

where did they dig up the prat who wrote this article. utter drivel from start to finish. as an employer i cant cut their tea breaks, slash their pay, torture, murder blah blah etc that this pseudo intellectual claims i can. i’m guessing he’s never had a proper job before, or indeed anything remotely resembling one. uni lecturer perhaps?

Michael James
Michael James
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Some public sector workers have no right to strike. I think none of them should have that right, since they are employed by the public, who often can access no alternative service providers. If private sector workers strike, they harm their employers but the public can access alternative suppliers.

Last edited 1 year ago by Michael James
M Lux
M Lux
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Spoken like a 1 percenter.

Russell Caplan
Russell Caplan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Typical neo-liberal nonsense, that denies the collective, social nature of work, in pursuit of greed and profit. As a trade unionist and university lecturer now retired I spent years fighting this clap trap that sought to reduce academics to the parlous state that private industry has succeeded in doing as a consequence of breaking the unions.
Divide and rule has always been the way of the bosses if they could get away with it. And get away with it they have for far too long. Doctors, nurses, ambulance workers, teachers, academics, railway workers, civil servants, BT engineers and more are finally discovering the collective power of the mass.
This advantage should not be squandered. The greed this government oversees rewarding their corporate cronies in the private sector despite their underperformance needs to be reversed so that all the workers can be paid a decent living wage. And this will only be achieved through such struggle as mass strikes.
The Guardian reported the Health Secretary claiming the 26% pay demand by junior doctors was unaffordable because it would add Ā£2bln to the public purse that would threaten the government’s efforts to control inflation. But the Defence Secretary has been given another Ā£2bln to replenish ammunition stocks that have been shipped off to Ukraine. A more perverse moral logic you could not make up, even if you tried. Inflation is acceptable when it comes to killing people in Ukraine, but unacceptable when it comes to paying the people who save lives and treat the sick in the UK!

Deb Grant
Deb Grant
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

The article is anti- capitalist, which makes me laugh. Capitalism is just barter. There is no other way of valuing human endeavour.

Striking is bartering but it does hold the whole public to ransom when it comes to essential public services.

What will junior doctors think of future generations of doctors who ask for more pay and less work than their predecessors, when they’re older and need more medical services? Why don’t they realise that the more they get for less work, the less doctors a free public system can afford to hire………

The reasons that Australian doctors are better paid and health insurance is more affordable is that it is a mixed public/private system with more money per capita going into healthcare.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

“Nobody objects to the right to withhold oneā€™s labour”.
Actually, I do. I do not accept that this is an absolute right without any corresponding responsibilities.
If you are a professional and have signed an employment contract to deliver services in return for a salary, then you have accepted responsiblity to deliver those services to the terms of the contract. You also have responsibilities to customers and co-workers.
Of course, if you don’t care about professionalism and taking your responsibilities seriously, that need not concern you.
In my view, it is extremely unwise for professionals like doctors to strike since it fundamentally undermines the professional ethos expected from them. Reputations take years to build and moments to destroy.
Having said all that, I can imagine that in practice it’s not an easy decision for teachers – for example – whether to strike.
But the fundamental reason they lack any negotatiating power is that they still insist on being treated as a mass and not as individuals as in private industry. If they accepted regional/local pay based on individual performance without things like automatic progression pay every year (this apparently still exists in the NHS), then a lot of the problems would go away. Except for the fact that lower performing employees would be paid less.
Since the public sector unions still insist that lower performing employees must be paid the same as higher performers and that they cannot be fired (drunk on the job train drivers seem impossible to dismiss), I suggest that the unions as they currently exist are archaic.

Milton Gibbon
Milton Gibbon
1 year ago

I didn’t realise that commenters would have their ramblings published as articles. It’s sixth form stuff, completely incoherent. How did this load of garbled nonsense get past the editors?

I don’t disagree with the first few paragraphs but from “The history of the British working-class…” it reads like mental diarrhoea.

Last edited 1 year ago by Milton Gibbon
Andrew Halliday
Andrew Halliday
1 year ago
Reply to  Milton Gibbon

Terence Francis Eagleton FBA[4] (born 22 February 1943) is an English literary theorist, critic, and public intellectual.[5][6][7][8] He is currently Distinguished Professor of English Literature at Lancaster University. Eagleton has published over forty books, but remains best known for Literary Theory: An Introduction (1983), which has sold over 750,000 copies.[9]

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

Would it be fair to say that: His is the archetypal Public Sector parasite who has contributed virtually nothing to the public good yet has plundered system on a titanic scale thanks to his fantastic pension? And all through no fault of his own?

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago

You mean like all the bankers we bailed out?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

Except for one short word: GREED.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

Except for one short word: GREED.

Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
1 year ago

No. Although that certainly describes most of the capitalist elite. Presumably Terry can survive on income from his books, and Charles survives in part on his pension.

If we are going to talk about runaway pension entitlements maybe we should concentrate not, or not just, on the public sector which is being reformed, but in the generation that made off like gangbusters with the triple lock. About whom the octogenarians on Unherd donā€™t seem to be so pushed about.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

In many cases, including my own that would be rather too hypocritical, but you are perfectly correct.

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

In many cases, including my own that would be rather too hypocritical, but you are perfectly correct.

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Nicky Hamlyn
Nicky Hamlyn
1 year ago

No it would not. Would it be fair to say that you’re a troll? He’s a university professor who works in one of those places where new knowledge is generated and culture is preserved, but hey, who cares about that crap? What do you mean by ‘public sector parasite’? Are all public sector workers parasites? What does ‘plundered the system’ actually mean? His book on literary theory has been very influential and an important contribution to literature studies but hey, what’s the point of studying literature?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicky Hamlyn

Calm down Ms Hamlyn you ONLY demean yourself by such vulgarity, do you not? And to think you claim to be a University Lecturer, need I say more?

However to indulge you, culture may have been preserved and ā€œnew knowledge generatedā€ in some, in fact very few of our plethora of Universities, but frankly most should be closed.

No, not all Public Sector Workers are parasites but an enormous number obviously are and this must cease.

ā€œPlundered the systemā€ translates as doing very little if any work, yet claiming a decent salary and in all cases a fantastic pension, with the extraordinary bonus of being virtually unsackable.

I dare say Eagletonā€™s book on Literary Theory is a notable tome but is rather niche is it not? As to why one should study Literature, you tell me.

ps: How is your little spat over speciality/specialty going with Steve Murray? (of this Parish.)

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicky Hamlyn

Calm down Ms Hamlyn you ONLY demean yourself by such vulgarity, do you not? And to think you claim to be a University Lecturer, need I say more?

However to indulge you, culture may have been preserved and ā€œnew knowledge generatedā€ in some, in fact very few of our plethora of Universities, but frankly most should be closed.

No, not all Public Sector Workers are parasites but an enormous number obviously are and this must cease.

ā€œPlundered the systemā€ translates as doing very little if any work, yet claiming a decent salary and in all cases a fantastic pension, with the extraordinary bonus of being virtually unsackable.

I dare say Eagletonā€™s book on Literary Theory is a notable tome but is rather niche is it not? As to why one should study Literature, you tell me.

ps: How is your little spat over speciality/specialty going with Steve Murray? (of this Parish.)

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago

You mean like all the bankers we bailed out?

Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
Mr Sketerzen Bhoto
1 year ago

No. Although that certainly describes most of the capitalist elite. Presumably Terry can survive on income from his books, and Charles survives in part on his pension.

If we are going to talk about runaway pension entitlements maybe we should concentrate not, or not just, on the public sector which is being reformed, but in the generation that made off like gangbusters with the triple lock. About whom the octogenarians on Unherd donā€™t seem to be so pushed about.

Nicky Hamlyn
Nicky Hamlyn
1 year ago

No it would not. Would it be fair to say that you’re a troll? He’s a university professor who works in one of those places where new knowledge is generated and culture is preserved, but hey, who cares about that crap? What do you mean by ‘public sector parasite’? Are all public sector workers parasites? What does ‘plundered the system’ actually mean? His book on literary theory has been very influential and an important contribution to literature studies but hey, what’s the point of studying literature?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

Would it be fair to say that: His is the archetypal Public Sector parasite who has contributed virtually nothing to the public good yet has plundered system on a titanic scale thanks to his fantastic pension? And all through no fault of his own?

Trevor B
Trevor B
1 year ago
Reply to  Milton Gibbon

I conclude from this that you can barely read. Irony?

Milton Gibbon
Milton Gibbon
1 year ago
Reply to  Trevor B

The trouble is that I can and have. My (very modest) criticism was that he could and should have stopped half way through and the article would have been better for it.
Nice try. I upvoted you.

Milton Gibbon
Milton Gibbon
1 year ago
Reply to  Trevor B

The trouble is that I can and have. My (very modest) criticism was that he could and should have stopped half way through and the article would have been better for it.
Nice try. I upvoted you.

Andrew Halliday
Andrew Halliday
1 year ago
Reply to  Milton Gibbon

Terence Francis Eagleton FBA[4] (born 22 February 1943) is an English literary theorist, critic, and public intellectual.[5][6][7][8] He is currently Distinguished Professor of English Literature at Lancaster University. Eagleton has published over forty books, but remains best known for Literary Theory: An Introduction (1983), which has sold over 750,000 copies.[9]

Trevor B
Trevor B
1 year ago
Reply to  Milton Gibbon

I conclude from this that you can barely read. Irony?

Milton Gibbon
Milton Gibbon
1 year ago

I didn’t realise that commenters would have their ramblings published as articles. It’s sixth form stuff, completely incoherent. How did this load of garbled nonsense get past the editors?

I don’t disagree with the first few paragraphs but from “The history of the British working-class…” it reads like mental diarrhoea.

Last edited 1 year ago by Milton Gibbon
rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

As usual there is much spoken about the current series of disputes – much of it WRONG.
The latest was:
NEWLY QUALIFIED – Junior Doctors:
”A (Junior) Doctor earns the same as a Barista (coffee not the other one) – this is not true. a simple online check shows Costa Coffee Baristas are paid less than or around Ā£10 an hour – not the same as a Jr Doc Starting Salary at all. – also a Jr Doc salary has an upward career path. I imagine a Barista stays the same.
”Newly Qualified” comment:
I heard someone on the radio just this week saying
”I am on Ā£14 yes (I dont know if that was true or not obviously) and I have to pay Ā£5.80 per day tube fare”
”then the cheapest meal for lunch in the canteen is (cant remember exactly) Ā£4”
– plus I have to be the first on-call and I get asked to do overtime – Plus I get all the ”dogsbody” jobs.
Awww how terrible – the key point here is ”You are Newly Qualified” – also in my day, we used to make our own lunch and take that with us to work…….. What happened to that strange idea?

Tax-Payers:
I am not saying these people dont deserve a pay rise – but there are lots of TAX-Payers who have to pay for yoru salary from theirs and they too have probably (in the main) suffered a real terms pay cut.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

Bravo! Well said.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

And the Ā£22bn* of our money being pumped directly into the hands of landlords via rental allowance? I suppose that money is well worth it? OR we could support the strikers in trying to move us towards a high wage economy where employers pay workers properly (i.e. where no one has to rely on state support to help them pay for overpriced private rental accomodation) and then hard work rather than asset hoarding can become a real route out of poverty.
*https://propertyindustryeye.com/housing-benefits-costs-taxpayers-22bn-a-year-more-than-we-spend-on-police/

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Great, take away housing benefit then.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Fair play! Already got 4 million working people living in poverty – what’s another million?
https://www.jrf.org.uk/data/overall-uk-poverty-rates#:~:text=In%202020%2F21%2C%20around%20one,living%20in%20poverty%20(27%25).

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

What poverty exactly?

Itā€™s all relative, just because ā€˜theyā€™ canā€™t get as ā€œpissed as a fartā€ every night of the week is hardly poverty in the old sense of the word is it?

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Indeed it is relative, as the Rowntree website makes clear, but the point is that in the 5th wealthiest economy in the world (though soon destined to be as poor as Poland we are often told), ordinary people should not be getting poorer (often to the benefit of those enjoying record profits, and in ways far disprortionate to their efforts or services for others – speculators, landowners, investers etc). It is not merely material deprivation though, but the sense of ownership people are losing over their lives doing menial low-skill jobs (supermarkets, amazon warehouses etc) that can’t provide them with a sense of pride or purpose in the way that skilled industrial jobs used to for the lower classes. Additionally, having a lot of disenfranchised people around makes us vulnerable to the seductions of demagogues. What do you say to that?
https://www.jrf.org.uk/our-work/what-is-poverty
PS getting pissed on no money at all has been possible ever since supermarkets were first allowed to sell alcohol in 1962

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Come on Charles, holding out hopes for you as a Blue Labourite who believes in a strong, productive Britain that rewards work over wealth, need over demand and doesn’t want to let our families, communities and town centres get torn apart by the ravages of the market..

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Working Class pride was destroyed eons ago by ā€˜Social Servicesā€™, ā€˜ Town Plannersā€™ and countless other socialist busybodies trying to create some form of pseudo Marxist Utopia.

Then State Education tried to destroy their sense of National pride by ā€˜guilt trippingā€™ them over arrant nonsense about slavery, Empire etc.
As Orwell pointed out there nothing a Quislington socialist despises more than the Working class. All that whoring, drinking, dog fighting and general exuberance was just TOO much for them, and still is.

However let us rejoice, despite this socialist onslaught, it didnā€™t work!
ā€˜Theyā€™ voted for Brexit, Boris and given half a chance would bring back the Gallows.

Twice in the last century ā€˜theyā€™ have saved us and shall do so again, so poverty be damned!

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Ok you haven’t really answered my question about whether you think living standards are going in a good direction in this country and on what the possible ramifications/solutions might be, but I’ll address your points in any case.
Yes the left does not have a completely shining record on its treatment of the working class, even the slum clearances resulted in some disruption to traditional ways of life. But those town planners (I assume you mean the ones who built the high rises in the 60s?) also helped create a surge in low-rise council housing before Thatcher started selling them off to leave the remaining publicly-owned blocks ghettos of alienation and abandonment.
Not sure what nonesense about slavery you’re talking about. As a history teacher I can tell you that schools teach that slavery is a universal human problem common to all Empires and that while there are many good things our Empire gave the world, we need to acknowledge its faults. Though I am intrigued that over stagnant wages, the breaking of unions, the rising of rents and the dying of skilled labour you choose the two hours a week of history lessons received by working class children as the experience that most damaged working class pride since the 60s.
Not an Orwell quote I’ve heard of. He was a patriotic socialist of the kind I had hoped to find in you, but instead all I’ve found (so far) is self-satisfied bluster and incoherence, though I do envy your optimism.
‘Poverty, be damned!’ So here do you mean that so long as the working classes are voting for things like Brexit and the gallows, we can assume they’re alright and there’s no poverty to speak of? And who and what policies then for you have and are now going to ‘save us’? What has been the big pay off? I genuinely would like to have some reason for hope. Will ripping up our commitment to human rights in order to stop these 45,000 ‘invaders’ (people generally fleeing oppression and war) finally bring us this bright future the Tories have been working on delivering us these last 12 years? What’s your favourite Tory policy and how has it improved your life and the lives of ordinary people in this country?

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Well and in reverse order if I may, I do not have a ā€˜favourite Tory policyā€™ for the very simple reason there havenā€™t been any. As for the improvement in the lives of ordinary people there havenā€™t been any. In fact given the appalling response to the COVID nonsense there are unlikely be to any for a very considerable time.

The ā€˜invasionā€™ of 45,000 is neither here nor there. The damage has already been done, as was foretold by ā€˜you know whoā€™ many years ago. We have had the ā€˜flashā€™ and now we must await the ā€˜bangā€™.

As to poverty! What a splendid old chestnut, which can be distorted to mean almost anything. Poverty of opportunity, poverty intellect, poverty of housing, poverty of culture and so it goes on. However as I first voted in the General Election of 1959 I have seen the almost total banishment of material poverty as we used to know it. Unfortunately the perception of poverty is all often used to feed that ā€˜green eyed gremlinā€™; Envy. Perhaps you havenā€™t noticed this?

The Orwell reference is from the wartime essay entitled ā€œThe Lion and the Unicorn ā€œ, and I am astonished that you havenā€™t heard of it.

The destruction of working class pride I blame almost entirely on Education, and in particular Comprehensive Education, about which, and for the sake of brevity, all one can say is that it is Comprehensively dreadful! Why was the destruction of the Grammar Schools permitted, other than for reasons ideological socialist dogma, well annunciated by that cretin Tony Crosland and his famous expletive ā€œF*ck the Grammar Schoolsā€! Charming and Oxford man at that!
Rather sadly the Tories were also complicit by their apathy.

However this is not to completely exculpate the ā€˜Mediaā€™ and in particular the BBC who have played their part in the vilification of the English working class, and more specifically the dreaded ā€œWhite Van Manā€, who is normally portrayed as a monosyllabic fascist thug who is beyond redemption.

So, there we have it. Fortunately I have already passed the ā€˜finishing postā€™ so this is all rather academic now, but I am grateful that I at least have spent my life in a ā€œgreen and pleasant landā€.

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Thanks for such a thorough and considered reply – I retract my previous discourtesies. Doubtless I won’t be able to persuade you of anything (who ever persuades anyone of anything they disagree with?), but perhaps something I say makes the leftwards drift of my generation more understandable to you. So taking your points in their original order, if I may:
I would actually be less harsh on the Tory’s latest episode of ruinous rule. There were glimmers of communitarianism here and there in the beginning, particularly with Cameron’s funding of co-operative housing (utterly impotetent before the scale of the housing crisis, but a positive direction nonetheless) and Gove’s free schools initiative, whose raising of standards and enabling of curricular creativity when in the hands of the right teachers I’ve seen at first hand. But beyond those two policies I struggle to think of much. Maybe raising the personal allowance? Since those big society days however, One Nation Tories seem near extinct in the party as it becomes clear that it is more not less submission to foreign capital that this lot were hoping to achieve through Brexit.
‘The damage has already been done.’ I’ll take your point that there’s been to much immigration and that instead of integrated multiculturalism a proliferation of mono cultures abounds in our cities (although quite how much friction this really causes seems undermined by studies which show that people most concerned by immigration actually don’t live very near immigrants). Given that most cultures flourish through some degree of openess to other ones (right?) I assume you would say there is an optimal level of immigration but that we had already reached that point at least as early as 1968..?
Poverty ‘distorted’ to mean ‘almost anything.’ My grandad took a similar line in disussions about collapsing healthcare. He would hide behind definitions: ‘well, healthcare is anything these days – botox, breast enhancement etc’ (not on the NHS it isn’t..) Anyway, of course there are many forms of poverty, but I’m talking about the kind that the government can actually do something about. There may be degeneration culturally and intellectually but if like me you believe that the proper business of government is to provide services that meet the basic needs of the population (safe and clean housing that can be afforded on a minimum wage that allows one parent to be at home, and timely and universal healthcare, among some of them), then cultural and intellectual poverty should not be foregrounded in a discussion aimed at government policy. There is indeed a sort of spiritual poverty, but this is driven in large part by forces outside the control of governement (social media, secularisation etc) so quite how a government is supposed to remedy these without being morally intrusive or censorious (as indeed they have been with this talk of freedom of speech Tsars appointed to moderate debate in universites (what could be more ironic than a government intervening to tell students who they can and can’t listen to in the name of free speech?)) is beyond me.
‘The total banishment of material poverty as we know it.’ Yes, there is much to be grateful for and in all our complaints in this area it can be hard to tell apart hedonic adaptation from genuine decline. But rather than use Britain in 1959 as a standard by which to judge our progress, I would rather use the conditions of our (more prosperous) European neighbours. Also it isn’t about envy, it’s about wanting to live in a country where hard work is a real route out of poverty in an economy where productive rather than extractive activity is encouraged, because that to me seems how we grow and how disproportionately large moneyed interests are kept at bay from capturing our democracy.
‘The Lion and the Unicorn’ – heard of it but still not read it. To my shame and chagrin.
‘The destruction of working class pride I blame almost entirely on Education’ – this I find the most extraordinary of your claims. I do have some sympathy with Peter Hitchens’ position that grammar schools (selection by ‘merit,’ although not of a completely classless kind) made way for an ironically more class-based type of selection (by post code) in the form of comprehensives. I can accept that analysis (and its implication that a revival of grammar schools is called for) on these conditions: 1) A provision of decent technical training for those unable to pass the 11+ (this would also require a reveral of all the damaging deindustrialisation – the real cause of working class disaffection as I’ve said – wrought upon us by ‘you know her’, so that there are good skilled jobs waiting for these kids on the other side) 2) An awareness that reinstituting more grammar schools will not raise standards overnight – well-run comprehensives (like Michaela) may be able to achieve more.
I could say more about education (how I don’t think secondary school standards have declined, as many people assume, especially in history (usually the subject people are referring to, being by far the most politicised, with English a distant second) and that in terms of our reputation abroad for higher education (something that has flourished through scholars crossing open borders, at least as far back as the 12th century), I can’t think of a single way that Brexit will improve our standing in that area.
The role of the media in vilifying the working class… yes attempts by the press to start an internal conflict between the jobless and the just about getting by, between natives and immigrants, between rail workers and the rest of us (all to distract them from the profiteering of those most responsible for their squalour and alienation) has been the politics of divide and rule on its starkest display in recent times – I do agree!
And on that positive note I will leave you there!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Thanks for that splendid reply. Itā€™s very unusual for a discussion to last more than 24 hours on UnHerd!

Have you ever read anything by the late Correlli Barnett? If not may I recommend two works:-
ā€˜The Collapse of British Powerā€™.
and,
ā€˜The pride and the fall: the dream and illusion of Britain as a great nation.

They go some to explaining why we are where we are. All rather sad!

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Thanks for these – I’ll let you know how I get on with them if I get round to reading them! For years I’ve been decrying Britain’s deindustrialistion without really knowing how inevitable it was and assuming it was done out of short-term opportunism without a positive long-term legacy to its name, but I’d be encouraged to discover I was wrong..

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Abysmal management coupled with delusional political thinking/dogma had a lot to do with it!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Abysmal management coupled with delusional political thinking/dogma had a lot to do with it!

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Thanks for these – I’ll let you know how I get on with them if I get round to reading them! For years I’ve been decrying Britain’s deindustrialistion without really knowing how inevitable it was and assuming it was done out of short-term opportunism without a positive long-term legacy to its name, but I’d be encouraged to discover I was wrong..

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Thanks for that splendid reply. Itā€™s very unusual for a discussion to last more than 24 hours on UnHerd!

Have you ever read anything by the late Correlli Barnett? If not may I recommend two works:-
ā€˜The Collapse of British Powerā€™.
and,
ā€˜The pride and the fall: the dream and illusion of Britain as a great nation.

They go some to explaining why we are where we are. All rather sad!

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Thanks for such a thorough and considered reply – I retract my previous discourtesies. Doubtless I won’t be able to persuade you of anything (who ever persuades anyone of anything they disagree with?), but perhaps something I say makes the leftwards drift of my generation more understandable to you. So taking your points in their original order, if I may:
I would actually be less harsh on the Tory’s latest episode of ruinous rule. There were glimmers of communitarianism here and there in the beginning, particularly with Cameron’s funding of co-operative housing (utterly impotetent before the scale of the housing crisis, but a positive direction nonetheless) and Gove’s free schools initiative, whose raising of standards and enabling of curricular creativity when in the hands of the right teachers I’ve seen at first hand. But beyond those two policies I struggle to think of much. Maybe raising the personal allowance? Since those big society days however, One Nation Tories seem near extinct in the party as it becomes clear that it is more not less submission to foreign capital that this lot were hoping to achieve through Brexit.
‘The damage has already been done.’ I’ll take your point that there’s been to much immigration and that instead of integrated multiculturalism a proliferation of mono cultures abounds in our cities (although quite how much friction this really causes seems undermined by studies which show that people most concerned by immigration actually don’t live very near immigrants). Given that most cultures flourish through some degree of openess to other ones (right?) I assume you would say there is an optimal level of immigration but that we had already reached that point at least as early as 1968..?
Poverty ‘distorted’ to mean ‘almost anything.’ My grandad took a similar line in disussions about collapsing healthcare. He would hide behind definitions: ‘well, healthcare is anything these days – botox, breast enhancement etc’ (not on the NHS it isn’t..) Anyway, of course there are many forms of poverty, but I’m talking about the kind that the government can actually do something about. There may be degeneration culturally and intellectually but if like me you believe that the proper business of government is to provide services that meet the basic needs of the population (safe and clean housing that can be afforded on a minimum wage that allows one parent to be at home, and timely and universal healthcare, among some of them), then cultural and intellectual poverty should not be foregrounded in a discussion aimed at government policy. There is indeed a sort of spiritual poverty, but this is driven in large part by forces outside the control of governement (social media, secularisation etc) so quite how a government is supposed to remedy these without being morally intrusive or censorious (as indeed they have been with this talk of freedom of speech Tsars appointed to moderate debate in universites (what could be more ironic than a government intervening to tell students who they can and can’t listen to in the name of free speech?)) is beyond me.
‘The total banishment of material poverty as we know it.’ Yes, there is much to be grateful for and in all our complaints in this area it can be hard to tell apart hedonic adaptation from genuine decline. But rather than use Britain in 1959 as a standard by which to judge our progress, I would rather use the conditions of our (more prosperous) European neighbours. Also it isn’t about envy, it’s about wanting to live in a country where hard work is a real route out of poverty in an economy where productive rather than extractive activity is encouraged, because that to me seems how we grow and how disproportionately large moneyed interests are kept at bay from capturing our democracy.
‘The Lion and the Unicorn’ – heard of it but still not read it. To my shame and chagrin.
‘The destruction of working class pride I blame almost entirely on Education’ – this I find the most extraordinary of your claims. I do have some sympathy with Peter Hitchens’ position that grammar schools (selection by ‘merit,’ although not of a completely classless kind) made way for an ironically more class-based type of selection (by post code) in the form of comprehensives. I can accept that analysis (and its implication that a revival of grammar schools is called for) on these conditions: 1) A provision of decent technical training for those unable to pass the 11+ (this would also require a reveral of all the damaging deindustrialisation – the real cause of working class disaffection as I’ve said – wrought upon us by ‘you know her’, so that there are good skilled jobs waiting for these kids on the other side) 2) An awareness that reinstituting more grammar schools will not raise standards overnight – well-run comprehensives (like Michaela) may be able to achieve more.
I could say more about education (how I don’t think secondary school standards have declined, as many people assume, especially in history (usually the subject people are referring to, being by far the most politicised, with English a distant second) and that in terms of our reputation abroad for higher education (something that has flourished through scholars crossing open borders, at least as far back as the 12th century), I can’t think of a single way that Brexit will improve our standing in that area.
The role of the media in vilifying the working class… yes attempts by the press to start an internal conflict between the jobless and the just about getting by, between natives and immigrants, between rail workers and the rest of us (all to distract them from the profiteering of those most responsible for their squalour and alienation) has been the politics of divide and rule on its starkest display in recent times – I do agree!
And on that positive note I will leave you there!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

I have just made a long reply but it has disappeared!
11.13. GMT. 19.3.23

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Thank you – and not to worry, happens to me all the time. It will reappear later. I don’t know what happens to it in the meantime..

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

GCHQ and Langley for ā€˜vettingā€™?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

GCHQ and Langley for ā€˜vettingā€™?

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Thank you – and not to worry, happens to me all the time. It will reappear later. I don’t know what happens to it in the meantime..

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Well and in reverse order if I may, I do not have a ā€˜favourite Tory policyā€™ for the very simple reason there havenā€™t been any. As for the improvement in the lives of ordinary people there havenā€™t been any. In fact given the appalling response to the COVID nonsense there are unlikely be to any for a very considerable time.

The ā€˜invasionā€™ of 45,000 is neither here nor there. The damage has already been done, as was foretold by ā€˜you know whoā€™ many years ago. We have had the ā€˜flashā€™ and now we must await the ā€˜bangā€™.

As to poverty! What a splendid old chestnut, which can be distorted to mean almost anything. Poverty of opportunity, poverty intellect, poverty of housing, poverty of culture and so it goes on. However as I first voted in the General Election of 1959 I have seen the almost total banishment of material poverty as we used to know it. Unfortunately the perception of poverty is all often used to feed that ā€˜green eyed gremlinā€™; Envy. Perhaps you havenā€™t noticed this?

The Orwell reference is from the wartime essay entitled ā€œThe Lion and the Unicorn ā€œ, and I am astonished that you havenā€™t heard of it.

The destruction of working class pride I blame almost entirely on Education, and in particular Comprehensive Education, about which, and for the sake of brevity, all one can say is that it is Comprehensively dreadful! Why was the destruction of the Grammar Schools permitted, other than for reasons ideological socialist dogma, well annunciated by that cretin Tony Crosland and his famous expletive ā€œF*ck the Grammar Schoolsā€! Charming and Oxford man at that!
Rather sadly the Tories were also complicit by their apathy.

However this is not to completely exculpate the ā€˜Mediaā€™ and in particular the BBC who have played their part in the vilification of the English working class, and more specifically the dreaded ā€œWhite Van Manā€, who is normally portrayed as a monosyllabic fascist thug who is beyond redemption.

So, there we have it. Fortunately I have already passed the ā€˜finishing postā€™ so this is all rather academic now, but I am grateful that I at least have spent my life in a ā€œgreen and pleasant landā€.

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

I have just made a long reply but it has disappeared!
11.13. GMT. 19.3.23

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Ok you haven’t really answered my question about whether you think living standards are going in a good direction in this country and on what the possible ramifications/solutions might be, but I’ll address your points in any case.
Yes the left does not have a completely shining record on its treatment of the working class, even the slum clearances resulted in some disruption to traditional ways of life. But those town planners (I assume you mean the ones who built the high rises in the 60s?) also helped create a surge in low-rise council housing before Thatcher started selling them off to leave the remaining publicly-owned blocks ghettos of alienation and abandonment.
Not sure what nonesense about slavery you’re talking about. As a history teacher I can tell you that schools teach that slavery is a universal human problem common to all Empires and that while there are many good things our Empire gave the world, we need to acknowledge its faults. Though I am intrigued that over stagnant wages, the breaking of unions, the rising of rents and the dying of skilled labour you choose the two hours a week of history lessons received by working class children as the experience that most damaged working class pride since the 60s.
Not an Orwell quote I’ve heard of. He was a patriotic socialist of the kind I had hoped to find in you, but instead all I’ve found (so far) is self-satisfied bluster and incoherence, though I do envy your optimism.
‘Poverty, be damned!’ So here do you mean that so long as the working classes are voting for things like Brexit and the gallows, we can assume they’re alright and there’s no poverty to speak of? And who and what policies then for you have and are now going to ‘save us’? What has been the big pay off? I genuinely would like to have some reason for hope. Will ripping up our commitment to human rights in order to stop these 45,000 ‘invaders’ (people generally fleeing oppression and war) finally bring us this bright future the Tories have been working on delivering us these last 12 years? What’s your favourite Tory policy and how has it improved your life and the lives of ordinary people in this country?

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Come on Charles, holding out hopes for you as a Blue Labourite who believes in a strong, productive Britain that rewards work over wealth, need over demand and doesn’t want to let our families, communities and town centres get torn apart by the ravages of the market..

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Working Class pride was destroyed eons ago by ā€˜Social Servicesā€™, ā€˜ Town Plannersā€™ and countless other socialist busybodies trying to create some form of pseudo Marxist Utopia.

Then State Education tried to destroy their sense of National pride by ā€˜guilt trippingā€™ them over arrant nonsense about slavery, Empire etc.
As Orwell pointed out there nothing a Quislington socialist despises more than the Working class. All that whoring, drinking, dog fighting and general exuberance was just TOO much for them, and still is.

However let us rejoice, despite this socialist onslaught, it didnā€™t work!
ā€˜Theyā€™ voted for Brexit, Boris and given half a chance would bring back the Gallows.

Twice in the last century ā€˜theyā€™ have saved us and shall do so again, so poverty be damned!

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Indeed it is relative, as the Rowntree website makes clear, but the point is that in the 5th wealthiest economy in the world (though soon destined to be as poor as Poland we are often told), ordinary people should not be getting poorer (often to the benefit of those enjoying record profits, and in ways far disprortionate to their efforts or services for others – speculators, landowners, investers etc). It is not merely material deprivation though, but the sense of ownership people are losing over their lives doing menial low-skill jobs (supermarkets, amazon warehouses etc) that can’t provide them with a sense of pride or purpose in the way that skilled industrial jobs used to for the lower classes. Additionally, having a lot of disenfranchised people around makes us vulnerable to the seductions of demagogues. What do you say to that?
https://www.jrf.org.uk/our-work/what-is-poverty
PS getting pissed on no money at all has been possible ever since supermarkets were first allowed to sell alcohol in 1962

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

What poverty exactly?

Itā€™s all relative, just because ā€˜theyā€™ canā€™t get as ā€œpissed as a fartā€ every night of the week is hardly poverty in the old sense of the word is it?

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

And would serve those povvos right wouldn’t it. Spaffing their minimum wage on fast food and tracksuits because buying rubbish is the only way they can cheer up their miserable lives. Unlike those heroic landlords, breaking their backs to pick up the monthly cheque.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Fair play! Already got 4 million working people living in poverty – what’s another million?
https://www.jrf.org.uk/data/overall-uk-poverty-rates#:~:text=In%202020%2F21%2C%20around%20one,living%20in%20poverty%20(27%25).

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

And would serve those povvos right wouldn’t it. Spaffing their minimum wage on fast food and tracksuits because buying rubbish is the only way they can cheer up their miserable lives. Unlike those heroic landlords, breaking their backs to pick up the monthly cheque.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Great, take away housing benefit then.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

Bravo! Well said.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

And the Ā£22bn* of our money being pumped directly into the hands of landlords via rental allowance? I suppose that money is well worth it? OR we could support the strikers in trying to move us towards a high wage economy where employers pay workers properly (i.e. where no one has to rely on state support to help them pay for overpriced private rental accomodation) and then hard work rather than asset hoarding can become a real route out of poverty.
*https://propertyindustryeye.com/housing-benefits-costs-taxpayers-22bn-a-year-more-than-we-spend-on-police/

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

As usual there is much spoken about the current series of disputes – much of it WRONG.
The latest was:
NEWLY QUALIFIED – Junior Doctors:
”A (Junior) Doctor earns the same as a Barista (coffee not the other one) – this is not true. a simple online check shows Costa Coffee Baristas are paid less than or around Ā£10 an hour – not the same as a Jr Doc Starting Salary at all. – also a Jr Doc salary has an upward career path. I imagine a Barista stays the same.
”Newly Qualified” comment:
I heard someone on the radio just this week saying
”I am on Ā£14 yes (I dont know if that was true or not obviously) and I have to pay Ā£5.80 per day tube fare”
”then the cheapest meal for lunch in the canteen is (cant remember exactly) Ā£4”
– plus I have to be the first on-call and I get asked to do overtime – Plus I get all the ”dogsbody” jobs.
Awww how terrible – the key point here is ”You are Newly Qualified” – also in my day, we used to make our own lunch and take that with us to work…….. What happened to that strange idea?

Tax-Payers:
I am not saying these people dont deserve a pay rise – but there are lots of TAX-Payers who have to pay for yoru salary from theirs and they too have probably (in the main) suffered a real terms pay cut.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

In my experience strikes occur at a time when laborersā€™ workloads increase without corresponding pay hikes. Even more so when their managers are given exorbitant bonuses for doing so. It has to with perceptions of fairness.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

For example Saint Gary ā€˜trouseringā€™ Ā£1.3 million, or Piers Morgan a mere Ā£15 million*, and both for inane prattle!

(* Alleged.)

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

Iā€™m coming around to this way of thinking. I was a Production Manager over about 500 people for many years. I had to negotiate everything but I had to present the management line. With hindsight the union officials were mostly right. They had to take a 3% pay rise and the top management were swanning around in fabulous cars, going out for fabulous meals, etc.
To get to the top of any organisation you donā€™t have to be good at your job; it is better to speak in the right way, know the right people and be able to read a spreadsheet. Then come the mistakes and the ā€˜Oopsesā€™.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

Iā€™m coming around to this way of thinking. I was a Production Manager over about 500 people for many years. I had to negotiate everything but I had to present the management line. With hindsight the union officials were mostly right. They had to take a 3% pay rise and the top management were swanning around in fabulous cars, going out for fabulous meals, etc.
To get to the top of any organisation you donā€™t have to be good at your job; it is better to speak in the right way, know the right people and be able to read a spreadsheet. Then come the mistakes and the ā€˜Oopsesā€™.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Inflation also helps.

philip kern
philip kern
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Interesting. I’ve never pondered the link to increased workload. My impression is that labour unrest relates more to external factors such as the rate of inflation–whether a worker becomes more productive or is asked to do more is inconsequential compared to the need to pay for food and housing.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

For example Saint Gary ā€˜trouseringā€™ Ā£1.3 million, or Piers Morgan a mere Ā£15 million*, and both for inane prattle!

(* Alleged.)

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Inflation also helps.

philip kern
philip kern
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Interesting. I’ve never pondered the link to increased workload. My impression is that labour unrest relates more to external factors such as the rate of inflation–whether a worker becomes more productive or is asked to do more is inconsequential compared to the need to pay for food and housing.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

In my experience strikes occur at a time when laborersā€™ workloads increase without corresponding pay hikes. Even more so when their managers are given exorbitant bonuses for doing so. It has to with perceptions of fairness.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

IDK. I think itā€™s important to differentiate between public and private sector unions. Iā€™m from Canada so maybe the circumstances are different, but here govt employees are much better compensated than private sector people, especially when it comes to pensions.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Not quite the case in the UK. Public sector pay lagging significantly behind private. In the past things like pension did compensate to some degree but the public sector pensions aren’t what they were, esp for the youngster who aren’t in legacy systems that were more generous. The older public sector employee perhaps not doing so bad as a result of entering a pension system before rules and benefits changed, but that’s not where we have a problem. The picket lines are the younger staff.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

But the overwhelming number are the ā€œolder public sector employeesā€. A more unworthy bunch of parasites would be hard to imagine and they have been a national disgrace since the ā€˜beginning of timeā€™*.

This problem is systemic, ranging from the DVLA to the Passport Office, to the National Horror Show that is the NHS, to the absolutely worthless and probably mutinous Home Office and its failure to disciple our dysfunctional and Woke obsessed Police Forces, and so on and on; Ad infinitum.

This litany of failure seems to know no bounds and continues unabated to the detriment of us all, including your good self.

(*ie 1945.)

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago

It strikes me that this new generation of AI tools (ChatGPT etc) will make jobs like issuing passports and driving licences redundant overnight.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

ā€œHeaven be praised!ā€

Trevor B
Trevor B
1 year ago

Shows how little you know about ChatGPT

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Trevor B

Did I claim otherwise Trevor, Old Bean?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Trevor B

Did I claim otherwise Trevor, Old Bean?

Trevor B
Trevor B
1 year ago

Shows how little you know about ChatGPT

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

ā€œHeaven be praised!ā€

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

A few sweeping generalisations there CH. But anyway that aside the militancy is coming much more from the younger. Junior docs a case in point. Maybe less to lose.

Also remember during early days of Covid a lot of these younger health care workers fronted up daily when many of us sat at home bashing keyboards. It was genuinely quite frightening first few months. Donā€™t forget so easy. We owe many of them.

Rob Nock
Rob Nock
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

They might have been frightened but they shouldn’t have been. They definitely were lied to but those who were frightened should, like the rest of us, have been less willing to be terrified and just remembered ‘Keep calm and carry on’.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Well in about 100 words ā€˜sweeping generalisationsā€™ are unavoidable. However I take your point about the new militancy coming from the ā€˜ youngā€™ and I have considerable sympathy for them, in many ways they have been defraudedā€™ to use Kiplingā€™s words.

I do NOT however follow your COVID synopsis. From Day One I regarded it as the greatest confidence trick played on Western Civilisation since the Resurrection, and delighted that such figures as Lord Jonathan Sumption KS supported such a view. The ā€˜youngā€™ certainly manned the ā€˜front lineā€™ but in a completely synthetic crisis, and therefore I do not feel that ā€œWe owe many of themā€, to use your own words. It is HMG who ā€˜owesā€™ them for needlessly destroying three or more years of their lives for absolutely nothing.

As another UnHerd commentator* put it so well the other day: ā€œThis has changed my view of the morality and intelligence of humanity foreverā€.

(*Lesley van Reenen.)

Simon Floyd
Simon Floyd
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

No they didn’t. Many of the healthcare workers that I know were also at home, because they worked in speciality services like most, and the hospitals were closed. Hence the massive increases in all forms of waiting list.
If they had performance related pay then those who put in the additional effort could be rewarded. Not difficult to administer given that the additional shifts are recorded anyway.
And this is only fair. Instead, our local trust gave everyone an additional days holiday thus burning even more taxpayers money when it should have been diverted to improve services and provide reward where it was due.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Floyd

What about all those Nightingale Hospitals.
Besides vilifying the name of the late Florence Nightingale, what else did they achieve?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Floyd

Just a technical point: but the word is *specialty*, not speciality.

Nicky Hamlyn
Nicky Hamlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

In the UK it’s ‘speciality’, ‘specialty’ is American English. In the UK it’s ‘aluminium’ in the USA it’s ‘aluminum’. This is because north Americans struggle with polysyllabic words šŸ™‚

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicky Hamlyn

Why do they ā€œstruggleā€ so?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicky Hamlyn

It’s specialty in the UK. I worked for over three decades in the NHS.
Every single Consultant or Junior Doctor i worked alongside during that time used Specialty, and pronounced it without the extra syllable too.
Edit: extra two syllables, in fact!

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicky Hamlyn

Thereā€™s no such thing as American English. Thereā€™s English and thereā€™s mistakes

philip kern
philip kern
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Having lived in Yorkshire and E. Anglia for years, I can only wonder–which English?

philip kern
philip kern
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Having lived in Yorkshire and E. Anglia for years, I can only wonder–which English?

philip kern
philip kern
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicky Hamlyn

Not the best reply. 1) ‘Aluminum’ is the name Humphrey Davy gave it; 2) both of your examples are polysyllabic in either country; 3) my NHS specialist surgeons pronounced it ‘specialty’.

Last edited 1 year ago by philip kern
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicky Hamlyn

Why do they ā€œstruggleā€ so?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicky Hamlyn

It’s specialty in the UK. I worked for over three decades in the NHS.
Every single Consultant or Junior Doctor i worked alongside during that time used Specialty, and pronounced it without the extra syllable too.
Edit: extra two syllables, in fact!

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicky Hamlyn

Thereā€™s no such thing as American English. Thereā€™s English and thereā€™s mistakes

philip kern
philip kern
1 year ago
Reply to  Nicky Hamlyn

Not the best reply. 1) ‘Aluminum’ is the name Humphrey Davy gave it; 2) both of your examples are polysyllabic in either country; 3) my NHS specialist surgeons pronounced it ‘specialty’.

Last edited 1 year ago by philip kern
Nicky Hamlyn
Nicky Hamlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

In the UK it’s ‘speciality’, ‘specialty’ is American English. In the UK it’s ‘aluminium’ in the USA it’s ‘aluminum’. This is because north Americans struggle with polysyllabic words šŸ™‚

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Floyd

What about all those Nightingale Hospitals.
Besides vilifying the name of the late Florence Nightingale, what else did they achieve?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Floyd

Just a technical point: but the word is *specialty*, not speciality.

Rob Nock
Rob Nock
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

They might have been frightened but they shouldn’t have been. They definitely were lied to but those who were frightened should, like the rest of us, have been less willing to be terrified and just remembered ‘Keep calm and carry on’.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Well in about 100 words ā€˜sweeping generalisationsā€™ are unavoidable. However I take your point about the new militancy coming from the ā€˜ youngā€™ and I have considerable sympathy for them, in many ways they have been defraudedā€™ to use Kiplingā€™s words.

I do NOT however follow your COVID synopsis. From Day One I regarded it as the greatest confidence trick played on Western Civilisation since the Resurrection, and delighted that such figures as Lord Jonathan Sumption KS supported such a view. The ā€˜youngā€™ certainly manned the ā€˜front lineā€™ but in a completely synthetic crisis, and therefore I do not feel that ā€œWe owe many of themā€, to use your own words. It is HMG who ā€˜owesā€™ them for needlessly destroying three or more years of their lives for absolutely nothing.

As another UnHerd commentator* put it so well the other day: ā€œThis has changed my view of the morality and intelligence of humanity foreverā€.

(*Lesley van Reenen.)

Simon Floyd
Simon Floyd
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

No they didn’t. Many of the healthcare workers that I know were also at home, because they worked in speciality services like most, and the hospitals were closed. Hence the massive increases in all forms of waiting list.
If they had performance related pay then those who put in the additional effort could be rewarded. Not difficult to administer given that the additional shifts are recorded anyway.
And this is only fair. Instead, our local trust gave everyone an additional days holiday thus burning even more taxpayers money when it should have been diverted to improve services and provide reward where it was due.

Trevor B
Trevor B
1 year ago

Is there a UK National Socialist party for you to join?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Trevor B

Could you expand on that a little, it is rather cryptic.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Trevor B

Could you expand on that a little, it is rather cryptic.

philip kern
philip kern
1 year ago

Not to disagree, but I’ve spent years on three continents and multiple countries. In most ways the British version of everything you list is better than I’ve encountered elsewhere. Even the NHS, which felt tired already back in the ’90s, got the job done very well.

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago

It strikes me that this new generation of AI tools (ChatGPT etc) will make jobs like issuing passports and driving licences redundant overnight.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

A few sweeping generalisations there CH. But anyway that aside the militancy is coming much more from the younger. Junior docs a case in point. Maybe less to lose.

Also remember during early days of Covid a lot of these younger health care workers fronted up daily when many of us sat at home bashing keyboards. It was genuinely quite frightening first few months. Donā€™t forget so easy. We owe many of them.

Trevor B
Trevor B
1 year ago

Is there a UK National Socialist party for you to join?

philip kern
philip kern
1 year ago

Not to disagree, but I’ve spent years on three continents and multiple countries. In most ways the British version of everything you list is better than I’ve encountered elsewhere. Even the NHS, which felt tired already back in the ’90s, got the job done very well.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

But the overwhelming number are the ā€œolder public sector employeesā€. A more unworthy bunch of parasites would be hard to imagine and they have been a national disgrace since the ā€˜beginning of timeā€™*.

This problem is systemic, ranging from the DVLA to the Passport Office, to the National Horror Show that is the NHS, to the absolutely worthless and probably mutinous Home Office and its failure to disciple our dysfunctional and Woke obsessed Police Forces, and so on and on; Ad infinitum.

This litany of failure seems to know no bounds and continues unabated to the detriment of us all, including your good self.

(*ie 1945.)

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Not quite the case in the UK. Public sector pay lagging significantly behind private. In the past things like pension did compensate to some degree but the public sector pensions aren’t what they were, esp for the youngster who aren’t in legacy systems that were more generous. The older public sector employee perhaps not doing so bad as a result of entering a pension system before rules and benefits changed, but that’s not where we have a problem. The picket lines are the younger staff.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

IDK. I think itā€™s important to differentiate between public and private sector unions. Iā€™m from Canada so maybe the circumstances are different, but here govt employees are much better compensated than private sector people, especially when it comes to pensions.

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

How do we stop strikes? By the kind of redistribution of resources which will make them unnecessary.

Well meant but hopelessly unrealistic. If everyone had all the resources necessary to live reasonably well groups of people would still be stirred up to strike because the ‘differentials’ between their jobs and some other group were being eroded. There’s a strong component of desire for recognition or status inside each strike – sometimes money is the least of it.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Maybe but I canā€™t get out of my head the fact that those at the very, very top became 7 TRILLION dollars richer over the Covid period. 7 trillion dollars! Whose paying for THEIR windfall? They must have worked very very hard for itā€¦.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

When the value of a stock, cryptocurrency or other asset rises in value, the gain is funded by the person who paid the higher price for the asset. Those prices have fallen significantly since then. This tends to happen when governments print money to ā€œsolveā€ one problem they create while creating yet another.

AL Crowe
AL Crowe
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

I tend to think that talking about the super wealthy in this fashion is about as useful as talking about there being diamonds on Mars, as the global financial system of the super rich is that far removed from the system that the rest of us use, and there seems to be no practical way of ever bringing their system in line with ours.

Talking about money also tends to be difficult at this point, because money has been somewhat decoupled from finite resources, particularly at the upper end of the global financial system, money is as infinite as the number of digits someone can type on their computer screens, thus the issue is not really about money, it is about access to finite resources.

To be perfectly blunt, most of us in this country, and all of those striking, actually get a far larger portion of those finite resources at their disposal than those in many other parts of the world as is, and thus even if we did manage to come up with a practical way of completely changing the global financial system, it would not be those strikers getting more, the vast majority of resources the super rich have would have to be given to the developing world, not the middle classes of Britain.

Last edited 1 year ago by AL Crowe
Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

When the value of a stock, cryptocurrency or other asset rises in value, the gain is funded by the person who paid the higher price for the asset. Those prices have fallen significantly since then. This tends to happen when governments print money to ā€œsolveā€ one problem they create while creating yet another.

AL Crowe
AL Crowe
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Butcher

I tend to think that talking about the super wealthy in this fashion is about as useful as talking about there being diamonds on Mars, as the global financial system of the super rich is that far removed from the system that the rest of us use, and there seems to be no practical way of ever bringing their system in line with ours.

Talking about money also tends to be difficult at this point, because money has been somewhat decoupled from finite resources, particularly at the upper end of the global financial system, money is as infinite as the number of digits someone can type on their computer screens, thus the issue is not really about money, it is about access to finite resources.

To be perfectly blunt, most of us in this country, and all of those striking, actually get a far larger portion of those finite resources at their disposal than those in many other parts of the world as is, and thus even if we did manage to come up with a practical way of completely changing the global financial system, it would not be those strikers getting more, the vast majority of resources the super rich have would have to be given to the developing world, not the middle classes of Britain.

Last edited 1 year ago by AL Crowe
Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Maybe but I canā€™t get out of my head the fact that those at the very, very top became 7 TRILLION dollars richer over the Covid period. 7 trillion dollars! Whose paying for THEIR windfall? They must have worked very very hard for itā€¦.

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

How do we stop strikes? By the kind of redistribution of resources which will make them unnecessary.

Well meant but hopelessly unrealistic. If everyone had all the resources necessary to live reasonably well groups of people would still be stirred up to strike because the ‘differentials’ between their jobs and some other group were being eroded. There’s a strong component of desire for recognition or status inside each strike – sometimes money is the least of it.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

Strikes would be more meaningful, more democratic, and more serious if the decision to strike was always attained by secret ballot. I know for a fact that two recent strikes have been opposed by many members but they were bullied into voting in line with the union.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I was under the impression that the 1984 Trade Union Act mandated that strike ballots had to be secret. Has this been changed, or have I merely been wrong in this impression?

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

I think there is a difference between how things should work and how they do work. There are many acts and many laws and most are not policeable.
Back when that act was passed I was a Production Manager. When I mentioned this to the T&G officials, they just laughed. They would go into a room, only members allowed, and carry out a ā€˜secretā€™ ballot. I once asked to see the ballot papers and they had disappeared.

Kevin Hansen
Kevin Hansen
1 year ago

For quite a vew years now, strike ballots are administered by independent electoral services companies. Ballot papers are sent out to individuals by post to their home address and returned by post to the electoral services company. The votes are counted and verified by the company and the results are provided to the trades union and the employer. If a company suspects members have been coerced or overly influenced , except by legal means ( union meetings etc), the company can challenge the result and the ballot can rendered null and void.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

I think there is a difference between how things should work and how they do work. There are many acts and many laws and most are not policeable.
Back when that act was passed I was a Production Manager. When I mentioned this to the T&G officials, they just laughed. They would go into a room, only members allowed, and carry out a ā€˜secretā€™ ballot. I once asked to see the ballot papers and they had disappeared.

Kevin Hansen
Kevin Hansen
1 year ago

For quite a vew years now, strike ballots are administered by independent electoral services companies. Ballot papers are sent out to individuals by post to their home address and returned by post to the electoral services company. The votes are counted and verified by the company and the results are provided to the trades union and the employer. If a company suspects members have been coerced or overly influenced , except by legal means ( union meetings etc), the company can challenge the result and the ballot can rendered null and void.

Nicky Hamlyn
Nicky Hamlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Show us the evidence then. The strikes I have been involved in as a university lecturer were voted on by secret ballot and no one was pressurised into anything.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I was under the impression that the 1984 Trade Union Act mandated that strike ballots had to be secret. Has this been changed, or have I merely been wrong in this impression?

Nicky Hamlyn
Nicky Hamlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Show us the evidence then. The strikes I have been involved in as a university lecturer were voted on by secret ballot and no one was pressurised into anything.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

Strikes would be more meaningful, more democratic, and more serious if the decision to strike was always attained by secret ballot. I know for a fact that two recent strikes have been opposed by many members but they were bullied into voting in line with the union.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago

ā€œHow do we stop strikes? By the kind of redistribution of resources which will make them unnecessary. Otherwise weā€™ll carry on with the same old antithesis of private wealth and public squalorā€

The authorā€™s idea that there is some fair distribution of resources that will make strikes unnecessary is the usual delusion of socialists. What people receive is very roughly decided by the balance of supply and demand – the invisible arbitrator that decides unless some external power puts its hand on the scales. Socialist are usually keen to put their hand on the scales to pay what they think a job is worth and pay everyone in the same job category the same and then wonder why socialist societies tend to be oppressive and eventually collapse.

Strikes tend to rise at times when the traditional scales of pay that people have become used to get out of kilter with what they can buy as a result of rapid inflation. Strikes are indeed rather conservative in the sense that those striking tend to want their real pay to return to some reasonably recent but better real level. Those strikers who can cause maximum disruption will usually gain an advantage in this struggle to return to the past over occupations where their disruption is less immediately effective. Nothing particular fair about it.

The slow workings of the rough supply and demand decision is disrupted by inflation. Inflation of course is usually a result of some supply and demand disruption, a symptom of the system experiencing some rapid disruption recently the lockdowns and war in Ukraine and the fuel disruption have provided that disruption.

The advantage of capitalism over communism is that capitalism is better responding to the signals issued by supply and demand than socialist societies.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

The slow workings of the rough supply and demand decision is disrupted by inflation. Inflation of course is usually a result of some supply and demand disruption, a symptom of the system experiencing some rapid disruption recently the lockdowns and war in Ukraine and the fuel disruption have provided that disruption.

Fair points but that may be a record for the amount of “disruption” in one paragraph.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Dalton

Fair point. I usually reread to avoid excessive repetition of words but failed to do so here.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Dalton

Fair point. I usually reread to avoid excessive repetition of words but failed to do so here.

AL Crowe
AL Crowe
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

What I find invariably amusing is that these socialists always seem to think this redistribution would work in their favour, when the reality is that the vast majority of those resources would have to be redistributed to the developing world, and the remainder would have to be directed to the bottom rungs of the economic hierarchy, not the middle classes. The pensions they have and the wages they live off look positively cushy from the perspective of a disabled woman crossing my fingers that there’s even going to be a state pension by the time I reach retirement age.

Last edited 1 year ago by AL Crowe
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

I’d have thought that this fair distribution is easy to define: most people will be happy once they have enough to support their families in a safe, stable environment and not have to humiliatingly rely on state handouts to pay for basic amenities like housing? Trade unions helped bring the Soviet Union down so to associate them with communism like that is quite unconservative, being important pillars of civil society that have brought us many basic protections and privileges which we now take for granted, like the weekend.

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

The slow workings of the rough supply and demand decision is disrupted by inflation. Inflation of course is usually a result of some supply and demand disruption, a symptom of the system experiencing some rapid disruption recently the lockdowns and war in Ukraine and the fuel disruption have provided that disruption.

Fair points but that may be a record for the amount of “disruption” in one paragraph.

AL Crowe
AL Crowe
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

What I find invariably amusing is that these socialists always seem to think this redistribution would work in their favour, when the reality is that the vast majority of those resources would have to be redistributed to the developing world, and the remainder would have to be directed to the bottom rungs of the economic hierarchy, not the middle classes. The pensions they have and the wages they live off look positively cushy from the perspective of a disabled woman crossing my fingers that there’s even going to be a state pension by the time I reach retirement age.

Last edited 1 year ago by AL Crowe
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

I’d have thought that this fair distribution is easy to define: most people will be happy once they have enough to support their families in a safe, stable environment and not have to humiliatingly rely on state handouts to pay for basic amenities like housing? Trade unions helped bring the Soviet Union down so to associate them with communism like that is quite unconservative, being important pillars of civil society that have brought us many basic protections and privileges which we now take for granted, like the weekend.

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago

ā€œHow do we stop strikes? By the kind of redistribution of resources which will make them unnecessary. Otherwise weā€™ll carry on with the same old antithesis of private wealth and public squalorā€

The authorā€™s idea that there is some fair distribution of resources that will make strikes unnecessary is the usual delusion of socialists. What people receive is very roughly decided by the balance of supply and demand – the invisible arbitrator that decides unless some external power puts its hand on the scales. Socialist are usually keen to put their hand on the scales to pay what they think a job is worth and pay everyone in the same job category the same and then wonder why socialist societies tend to be oppressive and eventually collapse.

Strikes tend to rise at times when the traditional scales of pay that people have become used to get out of kilter with what they can buy as a result of rapid inflation. Strikes are indeed rather conservative in the sense that those striking tend to want their real pay to return to some reasonably recent but better real level. Those strikers who can cause maximum disruption will usually gain an advantage in this struggle to return to the past over occupations where their disruption is less immediately effective. Nothing particular fair about it.

The slow workings of the rough supply and demand decision is disrupted by inflation. Inflation of course is usually a result of some supply and demand disruption, a symptom of the system experiencing some rapid disruption recently the lockdowns and war in Ukraine and the fuel disruption have provided that disruption.

The advantage of capitalism over communism is that capitalism is better responding to the signals issued by supply and demand than socialist societies.

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago

Have these strikes had any impact at all? The teachers are apparently out but my daughters still in school. The doctors are apparently out but I have a GP appointment today. The train strikes are meaningless, I just WFH more.

Seems to me they will fizzle out once inflation drops to low single figures.

The strikers will have lost a few days wages and the govt will have brought in the new minimum service rules to stop future repetition.

Last edited 1 year ago by Matt M
j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

The NHS has absorbed the Nurses and Ambulance strikes better than initially thought. In part because of the negotiated derogations and because in many hospitals the nurses didn’t vote to strike.
The current Junior doctor strike is of a completely different magnitude. There are thousands of cancelled appointments and operations. Even urgent cancer ops have not been excluded. This will be rippling right now. Been somewhat amazed this didn’t get much more media traction in run up, but obviously media was more interested in BBC spats than proper life and death stuff.
The junior doctor strike strike aside, the broader industrial unrest acts like a slow puncture rather than an immediate deflation. Productivity drops when parent has to stay home to look after child off school or if someone can’t get into the office due to the trains. On an individual basis fairly minimal impact. In aggregation it’s quite different and not helping our economy.
I reckon inflation dropping will help, but much is about the degradation in wages over many years, and what we have to bear in mind is that given it’s so difficult to get a legal strike vote we can be pretty certain the workers feel v strongly. They ain’t getting just led by a few militants like back in the old days.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

True – and we’ve got the toughest anti-trade union laws in Europe, after Russia. There’s a fact for you unherd readers to comfort yourselves with.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

True – and we’ve got the toughest anti-trade union laws in Europe, after Russia. There’s a fact for you unherd readers to comfort yourselves with.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

You have a GP appointment! Wow, don’t tell everyone; it’s pratically impossible where I am. You phone up, it rings for about 10mins then cuts out witha “sorry, ring back later”. If you are foolish enouh to ring back later it cuts out again, if you persist then there are no appointments ring back tomorrow and so it goes around. I just ring 111 now and hope to get something from them.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago

Sounds like socialized medicine is a dream!

Sue Sims
Sue Sims
1 year ago

Here, they answer the phone very promptly. However, when you ask for an appointment, you’re given a time for the doctor to ring you back – average time, one week, though I did have one ring-back twelve days ahead. Then, if the doctor thinks you’re bad enough, he’ll generously give you an appointment in another fortnight.
This Cunning Plan frees up the doctor pretty efficiently: by the time the face-to-face appointment arrives, the patient is generally either dead or has got better on his own.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago

Sounds like socialized medicine is a dream!

Sue Sims
Sue Sims
1 year ago

Here, they answer the phone very promptly. However, when you ask for an appointment, you’re given a time for the doctor to ring you back – average time, one week, though I did have one ring-back twelve days ahead. Then, if the doctor thinks you’re bad enough, he’ll generously give you an appointment in another fortnight.
This Cunning Plan frees up the doctor pretty efficiently: by the time the face-to-face appointment arrives, the patient is generally either dead or has got better on his own.

Wendy Barton
Wendy Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

The junior doctorsā€™ strike yesterday had an interesting and heartening effect in at least one department of a large UK teaching hospital. The trust contracted extra hours with consultants (at hugely attractive rates) for them to come in and cover for the striking junior doctors.  The result was that everyone needed to make decisions about patient cases was unusually on hand.  Decisions were made, cases were progressed including patient discharges, that would usually have taken days or weeks to accomplish.  It was a good (if rather expensive in the short term) day in terms of patient outcomes. Who knows how much better the NHS would be if consultants were at work more?

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

The NHS has absorbed the Nurses and Ambulance strikes better than initially thought. In part because of the negotiated derogations and because in many hospitals the nurses didn’t vote to strike.
The current Junior doctor strike is of a completely different magnitude. There are thousands of cancelled appointments and operations. Even urgent cancer ops have not been excluded. This will be rippling right now. Been somewhat amazed this didn’t get much more media traction in run up, but obviously media was more interested in BBC spats than proper life and death stuff.
The junior doctor strike strike aside, the broader industrial unrest acts like a slow puncture rather than an immediate deflation. Productivity drops when parent has to stay home to look after child off school or if someone can’t get into the office due to the trains. On an individual basis fairly minimal impact. In aggregation it’s quite different and not helping our economy.
I reckon inflation dropping will help, but much is about the degradation in wages over many years, and what we have to bear in mind is that given it’s so difficult to get a legal strike vote we can be pretty certain the workers feel v strongly. They ain’t getting just led by a few militants like back in the old days.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

You have a GP appointment! Wow, don’t tell everyone; it’s pratically impossible where I am. You phone up, it rings for about 10mins then cuts out witha “sorry, ring back later”. If you are foolish enouh to ring back later it cuts out again, if you persist then there are no appointments ring back tomorrow and so it goes around. I just ring 111 now and hope to get something from them.

Wendy Barton
Wendy Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

The junior doctorsā€™ strike yesterday had an interesting and heartening effect in at least one department of a large UK teaching hospital. The trust contracted extra hours with consultants (at hugely attractive rates) for them to come in and cover for the striking junior doctors.  The result was that everyone needed to make decisions about patient cases was unusually on hand.  Decisions were made, cases were progressed including patient discharges, that would usually have taken days or weeks to accomplish.  It was a good (if rather expensive in the short term) day in terms of patient outcomes. Who knows how much better the NHS would be if consultants were at work more?

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago

Have these strikes had any impact at all? The teachers are apparently out but my daughters still in school. The doctors are apparently out but I have a GP appointment today. The train strikes are meaningless, I just WFH more.

Seems to me they will fizzle out once inflation drops to low single figures.

The strikers will have lost a few days wages and the govt will have brought in the new minimum service rules to stop future repetition.

Last edited 1 year ago by Matt M
Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
1 year ago

The criticism of unions 50 year ago was not so much that the unions were too strong, though many on the right believed that. The common view which Thatcher managed to use was that the unions did not reflect their members’ views. In those days there were no ballots. Strikes were decided in car parks by a show of hands. Even when the threat of violence failed to persuade the majority of workers to vote for the strike, union officials would claim that there had been a majority in favour of strike action. Closed shops then forced workers to go on strike, as being thrown out of the union meant losing your job. That was why Thatcher’s first union reforms were popular with many or even a majority of union members.

Last edited 1 year ago by Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
1 year ago

The criticism of unions 50 year ago was not so much that the unions were too strong, though many on the right believed that. The common view which Thatcher managed to use was that the unions did not reflect their members’ views. In those days there were no ballots. Strikes were decided in car parks by a show of hands. Even when the threat of violence failed to persuade the majority of workers to vote for the strike, union officials would claim that there had been a majority in favour of strike action. Closed shops then forced workers to go on strike, as being thrown out of the union meant losing your job. That was why Thatcher’s first union reforms were popular with many or even a majority of union members.

Last edited 1 year ago by Christopher Barclay
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

“Trade unions are more than just a defence against exploitation. The labour movement has traditionally seen itself as offering an alternative form of life to what we have at present, one based on cooperation rather than competition, solidarity rather than individualism. If it is engaged in the present, it also prefigures a different kind of future. How do we stop strikes? By the kind of redistribution of resources which will make them unnecessary.”
What a complete load of tosh.
What we are witnessing is the public sector, who are already better off than most, exercising the option to strike (which does not exist for most) so that they can redistribute wealth from people who are financially lower down the scale than they are in order to insulate themselves from the economic winds that the rest of us are going to have to ride out.
The solution for them should be the same as it is for everyone else. if you do not think you are paid enough leave and get a better paid one. If you cannot find a better paid job well that tells you all you need to know

Catherine Jean Marsden
Catherine Jean Marsden
1 year ago

When I read the comments above, it sometimes makes me wonder how many of you have to rely on the public sector for education, health care, transport, street cleaning, refuse collection, public health services… I could go on.
Having worked in both, one for 13 years and the other for 24 years, with time out for the birth of my children and subsequent child care, plus various periods of post school further and higher education, and professional training; I can tell you which was the hardest work with the longest hours, and if the pay was worked out to a hourly rate, paid me the least. I won’t ask you to guess, it was the public sector.
My husband worked in the private sector and was able to take the time off, to attend my children’s school assemblies, sports days and other activities I couldn’t attend because of my job. We managed the before school hours and after school care, with the help of grandparents until the children were old enough to not need someone there, until one of us got in; although it was not always ideal.
So why did I stick at that the longest, because I felt more satisfaction and reward, despite the longer hours and poor pay in the public sector, than I ever had in the private sector. BUT it was no excuse for paying me so poorly, when I often worked a 70 hour plus week for no extra pay. My pension is not the fortune many of you seem to think it is, despite paying a large contribution from my salary for it.
People who work in the public sector in my experience take a pride in what they do; going into work early and leaving late, and if you look at the pay rises that they have been given over the last thirteen years; they have not kept pace with inflation or wages in the private sector.
I know it won’t happen, because the majority whatever they do, are too professional to do it; but perhaps if they all went on strike together for just 24hours, while the workers at the Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun, Spectator et al continue to pontificate the bile they continually do – the rest of us might just realise how important these people are and the contribution they make to our society.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago

What’s this “private sector” then?
Isn’t that just normal people with normal jobs, the most productive and enterprising of whom pay the net taxes that fund the public services for everyone whether they pay net tax or not?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

Is a nurse not a normal person with a normal job in your eyes? Or how about the fire brigade, are they less deserving too?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

Is a nurse not a normal person with a normal job in your eyes? Or how about the fire brigade, are they less deserving too?

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

It’s true, as the late anthropolgist David Graeber documented in his (vulgarly but effectively titled) book ‘Bullshit Jobs,’ there are many jobs that do not need to exist in both the public *and* the private sector, often done by people who are not able to tell you what their necessity is, yet who believe the accompanying sense of futility and lack of fulfilment entitles them to greater pay, unlike those in public-facing public sector jobs, whose lower pay is considered offset by the fact that their jobs are actually useful.

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago

What’s this “private sector” then?
Isn’t that just normal people with normal jobs, the most productive and enterprising of whom pay the net taxes that fund the public services for everyone whether they pay net tax or not?

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

It’s true, as the late anthropolgist David Graeber documented in his (vulgarly but effectively titled) book ‘Bullshit Jobs,’ there are many jobs that do not need to exist in both the public *and* the private sector, often done by people who are not able to tell you what their necessity is, yet who believe the accompanying sense of futility and lack of fulfilment entitles them to greater pay, unlike those in public-facing public sector jobs, whose lower pay is considered offset by the fact that their jobs are actually useful.

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Catherine Jean Marsden
Catherine Jean Marsden
1 year ago

When I read the comments above, it sometimes makes me wonder how many of you have to rely on the public sector for education, health care, transport, street cleaning, refuse collection, public health services… I could go on.
Having worked in both, one for 13 years and the other for 24 years, with time out for the birth of my children and subsequent child care, plus various periods of post school further and higher education, and professional training; I can tell you which was the hardest work with the longest hours, and if the pay was worked out to a hourly rate, paid me the least. I won’t ask you to guess, it was the public sector.
My husband worked in the private sector and was able to take the time off, to attend my children’s school assemblies, sports days and other activities I couldn’t attend because of my job. We managed the before school hours and after school care, with the help of grandparents until the children were old enough to not need someone there, until one of us got in; although it was not always ideal.
So why did I stick at that the longest, because I felt more satisfaction and reward, despite the longer hours and poor pay in the public sector, than I ever had in the private sector. BUT it was no excuse for paying me so poorly, when I often worked a 70 hour plus week for no extra pay. My pension is not the fortune many of you seem to think it is, despite paying a large contribution from my salary for it.
People who work in the public sector in my experience take a pride in what they do; going into work early and leaving late, and if you look at the pay rises that they have been given over the last thirteen years; they have not kept pace with inflation or wages in the private sector.
I know it won’t happen, because the majority whatever they do, are too professional to do it; but perhaps if they all went on strike together for just 24hours, while the workers at the Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun, Spectator et al continue to pontificate the bile they continually do – the rest of us might just realise how important these people are and the contribution they make to our society.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

“Trade unions are more than just a defence against exploitation. The labour movement has traditionally seen itself as offering an alternative form of life to what we have at present, one based on cooperation rather than competition, solidarity rather than individualism. If it is engaged in the present, it also prefigures a different kind of future. How do we stop strikes? By the kind of redistribution of resources which will make them unnecessary.”
What a complete load of tosh.
What we are witnessing is the public sector, who are already better off than most, exercising the option to strike (which does not exist for most) so that they can redistribute wealth from people who are financially lower down the scale than they are in order to insulate themselves from the economic winds that the rest of us are going to have to ride out.
The solution for them should be the same as it is for everyone else. if you do not think you are paid enough leave and get a better paid one. If you cannot find a better paid job well that tells you all you need to know

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Why don’t unions buy shares in the companies their members work for?

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

What and become capitalists? The problem is that workers are happy to participate in the profits when times are good but not too keen to participate in losses. It is what distinguishes the capitalist class from the workers. The capitalist is prepared to run the risk of failure and loss. Socialists always assume successful enterprises carry no risk or if there is a risk ā€œthe publicā€ can bear it.

Orlando W.
Orlando W.
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

I struggle to see how capitalists are ready to “run the risk of failure” when we all know that massive corporations are confident they will be bailed out with public money thanks to their buddies in politics, should the need arise.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando W.

You are talking about the very big fish. Doesnā€™t somebody starting up in business as a plumber at the age of 22 also count as a capitalist?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando W.

I would like to say. This idea that all businesses are big and evil monsters needs to change. Small and medium businesses are ‘capitalists’ and one of the MOST important parts of the British economy as far as I am concerned. If the economy dies from the bottom up you lot will not be able to pay the doctors.
Small and medium businesses are being MASSACRED right now.
Nobody is listening.
They cannot strike. They loose everything if it goes tits up.

‘Business insolvencies in the UK surged by 57% in 2022, to 22,109, according to the latest data from the Insolvency Service, a UK government agency that deals with bankruptcies and companies in liquidation. It is the highest number of insolvencies registered annually since 2009, at the height of the Global Financial Crisis’

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/02/companies-in-uk-are-closing-their-doors-at-fastest-rate-since-global-financial-crisis.html

If you let SMEs die. Innovation, jobs, local businesses that have been established for years GONE.

I cannot believe sunak is raising corporation tax. Leave the ‘capitalists’ alone, most of them in this country that are not mega corps are stressed right now.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Well said and spot on Ms Emery!
The Public Sector just doesnā€™t get it!

Their very existence down to every morsel of food they eat or drop of water they drink is PROVIDED by the SMEs.

At the end of the day even Doctors are expendable, SMEs arenā€™t. QED.

Public Sector Pensions are currently 66% of final salary. That should be immediately cut to 50% or Half Pay as we used to say.
Then perhaps Corporation Tax need not rise from 19% to an iniquitous 25%.

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thank you Mr Stanhope. Perhaps I could have been a bit more articulate.
I thought London understood business. 25% is ridiculous. 19% is ridiculous considering everything else they are heaping on people. It needed holding or cutting, kwasi and truss were right on that I think.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thank you Mr Stanhope. Perhaps I could have been a bit more articulate.
I thought London understood business. 25% is ridiculous. 19% is ridiculous considering everything else they are heaping on people. It needed holding or cutting, kwasi and truss were right on that I think.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Agreed.
And the lazy default assumption that all large or multinational businesses are big and evil monsters also needs to change. Certainly some are at certain times. But not, in my experience, anything close to a majority.
You still here people on the left talk about shareholders and profit as though these things are “bad” and in some way “unfair”. Rather than the symptoms of success which generate wealth and taxes.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Yes that too, if people want their mass manufactured stuff from abroad you need multinationals too, we know a few small/medium businesses around here that feed the big ones, so they rely on them too.

Edit to add: I object to tax havens though and the tax breaks multi corps get. I think we could tax them a lot more and SMEs a lot less.

And one more: do the financial/stock markets need reforming? They do look a bit casino like….

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

The great cry of the Left used to be the horrors of ā€œunearned incomeā€!
But then we had super-tax at 99%!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

A 99% tax rate?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I do apologise Ms Emery I exaggerated by 1%!
In 1974 top rate income tax was 83% plus investment surcharge tax of 15% making a staggering total of 98%!

Fortunately all swept away by ā€œthat womanā€ otherwise correctly known as Lady Margaret Thatcher.R.I.P.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

That’s insane! Is that why they invented tax havens? I would have done….
My dad always said Thatcher was very good.
My grandad on my mums side, from Yorkshire very much disagreed, even though he used her right to buy to get their house, dad always had plenty to say about that, if it came up. They never got on šŸ™‚

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

That’s insane! Is that why they invented tax havens? I would have done….
My dad always said Thatcher was very good.
My grandad on my mums side, from Yorkshire very much disagreed, even though he used her right to buy to get their house, dad always had plenty to say about that, if it came up. They never got on šŸ™‚

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I do apologise Ms Emery I exaggerated by 1%!
In 1974 top rate income tax was 83% plus investment surcharge tax of 15% making a staggering total of 98%!

Fortunately all swept away by ā€œthat womanā€ otherwise correctly known as Lady Margaret Thatcher.R.I.P.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

A 99% tax rate?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Yes that too, if people want their mass manufactured stuff from abroad you need multinationals too, we know a few small/medium businesses around here that feed the big ones, so they rely on them too.

Edit to add: I object to tax havens though and the tax breaks multi corps get. I think we could tax them a lot more and SMEs a lot less.

And one more: do the financial/stock markets need reforming? They do look a bit casino like….

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

The great cry of the Left used to be the horrors of ā€œunearned incomeā€!
But then we had super-tax at 99%!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Well said and spot on Ms Emery!
The Public Sector just doesnā€™t get it!

Their very existence down to every morsel of food they eat or drop of water they drink is PROVIDED by the SMEs.

At the end of the day even Doctors are expendable, SMEs arenā€™t. QED.

Public Sector Pensions are currently 66% of final salary. That should be immediately cut to 50% or Half Pay as we used to say.
Then perhaps Corporation Tax need not rise from 19% to an iniquitous 25%.

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Agreed.
And the lazy default assumption that all large or multinational businesses are big and evil monsters also needs to change. Certainly some are at certain times. But not, in my experience, anything close to a majority.
You still here people on the left talk about shareholders and profit as though these things are “bad” and in some way “unfair”. Rather than the symptoms of success which generate wealth and taxes.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando W.

Large businesses have become less and less capitalist and more like part of the corporate state akin to the big organisations of National Socialist countries that grew up in Italy and Germany in the interwar years.

You are right that the managers of these corporations are often confident they will be bailed out but it should not be forgotten that the actually owners -the shareholders were usually not so lucky and had to face considerable losses. But ā€œtoo big to failā€ corporations are not really part of the capitalist ecosystem. There is a word to describe the nature of these beasts which you might glean from the first paragraph but which would simply get my post suspended until a human moderator could review it tomorrow.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando W.

You are talking about the very big fish. Doesnā€™t somebody starting up in business as a plumber at the age of 22 also count as a capitalist?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando W.

I would like to say. This idea that all businesses are big and evil monsters needs to change. Small and medium businesses are ‘capitalists’ and one of the MOST important parts of the British economy as far as I am concerned. If the economy dies from the bottom up you lot will not be able to pay the doctors.
Small and medium businesses are being MASSACRED right now.
Nobody is listening.
They cannot strike. They loose everything if it goes tits up.

‘Business insolvencies in the UK surged by 57% in 2022, to 22,109, according to the latest data from the Insolvency Service, a UK government agency that deals with bankruptcies and companies in liquidation. It is the highest number of insolvencies registered annually since 2009, at the height of the Global Financial Crisis’

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/02/companies-in-uk-are-closing-their-doors-at-fastest-rate-since-global-financial-crisis.html

If you let SMEs die. Innovation, jobs, local businesses that have been established for years GONE.

I cannot believe sunak is raising corporation tax. Leave the ‘capitalists’ alone, most of them in this country that are not mega corps are stressed right now.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando W.

Large businesses have become less and less capitalist and more like part of the corporate state akin to the big organisations of National Socialist countries that grew up in Italy and Germany in the interwar years.

You are right that the managers of these corporations are often confident they will be bailed out but it should not be forgotten that the actually owners -the shareholders were usually not so lucky and had to face considerable losses. But ā€œtoo big to failā€ corporations are not really part of the capitalist ecosystem. There is a word to describe the nature of these beasts which you might glean from the first paragraph but which would simply get my post suspended until a human moderator could review it tomorrow.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

That is how it is supposed to work, but over the last couple of decades, Iā€™m not aware of many capitalists who havenā€™t been bailed out for being ā€œtoo big to failā€. The system has gotten far from being a true capitalist one. Capitalism with tax payer backstops donā€™t sit well with me.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Perhaps one more ā€˜Bankā€™, preferably Goldman Sachs, should have been destroyed in 2008 if only to ā€œencourage the othersā€, as you know who said.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

What if we had let them fail?
Do you think it was lesser of two evils to bail them out?
I feel like we are still dealing with the consequences and actually we have just delayed the inevitable implosion…

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Some had to be bailed* out and others destroyed, it was quite a fine balance.

However there is worse to come and probably fairly soon. The COVID Dividend as I call it.

(* Otherwise it would have been Anarchy/Revolution.)

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

That’s what I thought. It was not something I could entirely wrap my head around at the time, or think I ever will tbh, that’s a whole other world the banking business.
That lesser of two evils again, anarchy is not good. They did go qe happy with covid too, again, perhaps could have been a bit more restrained, but no easy answer, exciting times.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

That’s what I thought. It was not something I could entirely wrap my head around at the time, or think I ever will tbh, that’s a whole other world the banking business.
That lesser of two evils again, anarchy is not good. They did go qe happy with covid too, again, perhaps could have been a bit more restrained, but no easy answer, exciting times.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Some had to be bailed* out and others destroyed, it was quite a fine balance.

However there is worse to come and probably fairly soon. The COVID Dividend as I call it.

(* Otherwise it would have been Anarchy/Revolution.)

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

What if we had let them fail?
Do you think it was lesser of two evils to bail them out?
I feel like we are still dealing with the consequences and actually we have just delayed the inevitable implosion…

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Yes. I agree. The system is not friendly to businesses here. We should make it friendlier to SMEs. I agree with the idea capitalism shouldn’t have backstops. I’m not saying we should rescue these SMEs, but we didn’t have to sanction energy, supply chains are a big problem. Sunak raising corporation tax is a big problem.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Perhaps one more ā€˜Bankā€™, preferably Goldman Sachs, should have been destroyed in 2008 if only to ā€œencourage the othersā€, as you know who said.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Yes. I agree. The system is not friendly to businesses here. We should make it friendlier to SMEs. I agree with the idea capitalism shouldn’t have backstops. I’m not saying we should rescue these SMEs, but we didn’t have to sanction energy, supply chains are a big problem. Sunak raising corporation tax is a big problem.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

Seeing as itā€™s those at the bottom that face job losses, reduced hours and pay freezes whenever those at the top run the company poorly Iā€™d say they participate in the losses much more acutely than the higher ups in most cases, who simply seem to fall upwards

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

You are conglomerating all businesses again. Are you talking about multi corps?
If a normal business fails, it fails. Not always because it has been run poorly either. Sometimes people can’t pay. Then it’s really fun. The person at the top falls down too.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Iā€™ve worked in the trades for over 20 years and have seen numerous companies fall over in that time. Iā€™ve seen tradesmen lose their jobs and homes and failed to be paid wages they are owed, Iā€™ve seen girls in the office turn up to work to find the doors locked with their stuff inside, Iā€™ve seen other well run businesses lose millions that is owed to them but not once have I seen those at the top lose their big homes, boats or fancy cars to cover the damage their incompetence has caused. In fact most usually start up another company a week later in their wifeā€™s name and start the whole process again

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

. Iā€™ve seen tradesmen lose their jobs and homes and failed to be paid wages they are owed, Iā€™ve seen girls in the office turn up to work to find the doors locked with their stuff inside,

If a company goes insolvent. Wages are paid if they can be first, actually I think. If the office has been repossessed or the business owner doesn’t fancy meeting the bailiffs that is probably why the door was locked.
Also business is risky, there are many things that can wrong. If business owners don’t take the risk there are no jobs in the first place.

, Iā€™ve seen other well run businesses lose millions that is owed to them but not once have I seen those at the top lose their big homes, boats or fancy cars to cover the damage their incompetence has caused

If they loose millions owed then that is the fault of the customer that can’t pay, not the management?

People that have gone bankrupt still have bills to pay. You don’t have to use your wife’s name to start another business, it’s just credit is hard to get.
Seriously. Have you ever run a business or just worked for one?

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

The tradesmen getting the wages theyā€™re owed is a tremendously rare occurrence. Also if youā€™ve been declared bankrupt you canā€™t run a business for a set number of years, hence the reason the new firm is always put into the name of a family member. Perhaps you should read up on these things before accusing me of ignorance

Last edited 1 year ago by Billy Bob
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

The tradesmen getting the wages theyā€™re owed is a tremendously rare occurrence. Also if youā€™ve been declared bankrupt you canā€™t run a business for a set number of years, hence the reason the new firm is always put into the name of a family member. Perhaps you should read up on these things before accusing me of ignorance

Last edited 1 year ago by Billy Bob
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

. Iā€™ve seen tradesmen lose their jobs and homes and failed to be paid wages they are owed, Iā€™ve seen girls in the office turn up to work to find the doors locked with their stuff inside,

If a company goes insolvent. Wages are paid if they can be first, actually I think. If the office has been repossessed or the business owner doesn’t fancy meeting the bailiffs that is probably why the door was locked.
Also business is risky, there are many things that can wrong. If business owners don’t take the risk there are no jobs in the first place.

, Iā€™ve seen other well run businesses lose millions that is owed to them but not once have I seen those at the top lose their big homes, boats or fancy cars to cover the damage their incompetence has caused

If they loose millions owed then that is the fault of the customer that can’t pay, not the management?

People that have gone bankrupt still have bills to pay. You don’t have to use your wife’s name to start another business, it’s just credit is hard to get.
Seriously. Have you ever run a business or just worked for one?

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Iā€™ve worked in the trades for over 20 years and have seen numerous companies fall over in that time. Iā€™ve seen tradesmen lose their jobs and homes and failed to be paid wages they are owed, Iā€™ve seen girls in the office turn up to work to find the doors locked with their stuff inside, Iā€™ve seen other well run businesses lose millions that is owed to them but not once have I seen those at the top lose their big homes, boats or fancy cars to cover the damage their incompetence has caused. In fact most usually start up another company a week later in their wifeā€™s name and start the whole process again

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

You are conglomerating all businesses again. Are you talking about multi corps?
If a normal business fails, it fails. Not always because it has been run poorly either. Sometimes people can’t pay. Then it’s really fun. The person at the top falls down too.

Orlando W.
Orlando W.
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

I struggle to see how capitalists are ready to “run the risk of failure” when we all know that massive corporations are confident they will be bailed out with public money thanks to their buddies in politics, should the need arise.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

That is how it is supposed to work, but over the last couple of decades, Iā€™m not aware of many capitalists who havenā€™t been bailed out for being ā€œtoo big to failā€. The system has gotten far from being a true capitalist one. Capitalism with tax payer backstops donā€™t sit well with me.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

Seeing as itā€™s those at the bottom that face job losses, reduced hours and pay freezes whenever those at the top run the company poorly Iā€™d say they participate in the losses much more acutely than the higher ups in most cases, who simply seem to fall upwards

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

What and become capitalists? The problem is that workers are happy to participate in the profits when times are good but not too keen to participate in losses. It is what distinguishes the capitalist class from the workers. The capitalist is prepared to run the risk of failure and loss. Socialists always assume successful enterprises carry no risk or if there is a risk ā€œthe publicā€ can bear it.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Why don’t unions buy shares in the companies their members work for?

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

It appears to me that most of the strikers are workers in the public sector, the ones with the gold plated pensions four times as big as the private sector with no risk whatsoever. They have an awful lot going for them security wise unlike the private sector whose lives are based on risk, risk and more risk who are the ones contributing to the real wealth of this country whilst the others strike to get more of our taxes into their pockets. Something is not fair somewhere.

AL Crowe
AL Crowe
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

A third of the population of the UK have to rely upon the state pension for retirement. Yet we’re supposed to feel sorry for affluent individuals who are complaining about having to contribute more to ensure that their additional pension schemes are financially viable, and to act as if those who are by and large already receiving salaries that are above the national average as if they are poor and starving Oliver Twists having to beg for more gruel.

I am sure I am far from the only poor person who struggles to find a small enough violin to express my sorrow at their plight.

AL Crowe
AL Crowe
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

A third of the population of the UK have to rely upon the state pension for retirement. Yet we’re supposed to feel sorry for affluent individuals who are complaining about having to contribute more to ensure that their additional pension schemes are financially viable, and to act as if those who are by and large already receiving salaries that are above the national average as if they are poor and starving Oliver Twists having to beg for more gruel.

I am sure I am far from the only poor person who struggles to find a small enough violin to express my sorrow at their plight.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

It appears to me that most of the strikers are workers in the public sector, the ones with the gold plated pensions four times as big as the private sector with no risk whatsoever. They have an awful lot going for them security wise unlike the private sector whose lives are based on risk, risk and more risk who are the ones contributing to the real wealth of this country whilst the others strike to get more of our taxes into their pockets. Something is not fair somewhere.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

I look forward to comments from those who appear to think Unherd is becoming a right-wing echo chamber.

This article is surely meat and drink for them, so don’t be shy, tuck in.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Wonderful article. We need more of this. Life affirming. That ok?
Actually more seriously, I find UnHerd more right leaning and that of coruse is the intent from the Owners. However that’s why I subscribe – we all need the challenge. Rarely does it leave one entirely unchanged in opinion. There are also many superb more neutral investigative articles.
And besides I saw Kay Balls excellent article in the Guardian the other day and also read Simon Jenkins stuff there too. UnHerd doing it’s best to keep up.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Simon Jenkins!
Not THE Simon Jenkins who some years ago when working for the ā€˜Timesā€™ had the effrontery to claim that the British Authorities executed Erskine Childers Esq in 1922?*

(* When he MUST surely have known it was the Irish Free State Authorities?)

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Simon Jenkins!
Not THE Simon Jenkins who some years ago when working for the ā€˜Timesā€™ had the effrontery to claim that the British Authorities executed Erskine Childers Esq in 1922?*

(* When he MUST surely have known it was the Irish Free State Authorities?)

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Wilco!

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Food, when your’re starving, is always good, even if some of it is not as well cooked as you might like.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

In using the phrase “meat and drink”, i’ve probably upset a few veggies/vegans.
Good to see some responses from the left, both serious and not so serious. We badly need articles and debate where all sides engage with each other, and if Unherd does anything this is surely it’s purpose, away from the wilds of the twitterati.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Not to worry. People are very easily upset nowadays. I start to cry when people blame ā€˜boomersā€™ for our present problems.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

To answer your question I will say the same as I did before. Discussion is only useful if you can see the other point of view. IMO, there is no shame in having a discussion and changing sides because the other person makes a good point.
The problem on UnHerd is that everyone knows they are correct, gainsayers are labelled as ā€˜leftiesā€™ and changing sides is trolling.
I am right of centre but I enjoy reading The Chartist.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

To answer your question I will say the same as I did before. Discussion is only useful if you can see the other point of view. IMO, there is no shame in having a discussion and changing sides because the other person makes a good point.
The problem on UnHerd is that everyone knows they are correct, gainsayers are labelled as ā€˜leftiesā€™ and changing sides is trolling.
I am right of centre but I enjoy reading The Chartist.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Not to worry. People are very easily upset nowadays. I start to cry when people blame ā€˜boomersā€™ for our present problems.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

In using the phrase “meat and drink”, i’ve probably upset a few veggies/vegans.
Good to see some responses from the left, both serious and not so serious. We badly need articles and debate where all sides engage with each other, and if Unherd does anything this is surely it’s purpose, away from the wilds of the twitterati.

MĆ“nica
MĆ“nica
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Well, it is, if you read the comments, and that’s why this article is most welcome (and, in line with the expected behaviour, being called “drivel” and “sixth form level” by the dutiful right-wing echo chamber BTL).

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  MĆ“nica

I’d fully agree that inane responses such as “drivel” don’t do the commentariat any favours, but least of all those unable to make their own case with sufficient intelligence to be worth reading.
Would you consider the phrase “with sufficient intelligence” elitist?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  MĆ“nica

I’d fully agree that inane responses such as “drivel” don’t do the commentariat any favours, but least of all those unable to make their own case with sufficient intelligence to be worth reading.
Would you consider the phrase “with sufficient intelligence” elitist?

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Wonderful article. We need more of this. Life affirming. That ok?
Actually more seriously, I find UnHerd more right leaning and that of coruse is the intent from the Owners. However that’s why I subscribe – we all need the challenge. Rarely does it leave one entirely unchanged in opinion. There are also many superb more neutral investigative articles.
And besides I saw Kay Balls excellent article in the Guardian the other day and also read Simon Jenkins stuff there too. UnHerd doing it’s best to keep up.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Wilco!

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Food, when your’re starving, is always good, even if some of it is not as well cooked as you might like.

MĆ“nica
MĆ“nica
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Well, it is, if you read the comments, and that’s why this article is most welcome (and, in line with the expected behaviour, being called “drivel” and “sixth form level” by the dutiful right-wing echo chamber BTL).

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

I look forward to comments from those who appear to think Unherd is becoming a right-wing echo chamber.

This article is surely meat and drink for them, so don’t be shy, tuck in.

Spencer Dugdale
Spencer Dugdale
1 year ago

We should distribute first from academics’ salaries and pension contributions. Leading by example so much more effective.

Spencer Dugdale
Spencer Dugdale
1 year ago

We should distribute first from academics’ salaries and pension contributions. Leading by example so much more effective.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago

A large section of the government employed workforce has nothing to fear from strikes because they make it up in subsequent overtime. I know, I used to do it.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago

A large section of the government employed workforce has nothing to fear from strikes because they make it up in subsequent overtime. I know, I used to do it.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago

A few factually incorrect points:
He says:
“Bosses have a number of positive ways of exercising power over their employees: firing them, slashing their pay, cutting their tea breaks, imposing longer hours, speeding up their work and so on”
In loose terms, ynder current UK employment laws in the private sector:

– Firing them. Once past probation period this is a months long and arduous process with lots of scope for gaming system by employee. But you can do it in the end.

– Slashing their pay. Effectively not possible outside a bankruptcy scenario

– Cutting their tea breaks. Tea breaks disappeared from most employment in the UK the 80s, you drink as you work in most jobs. The Statutory minimum meal breaks cannot be changed.

– Imposing Longer Hours . You would need to go through a formal consultation process, with an HR lawyer by your side, and even then you we would face expensive legal issues. Usually achieved by making redundant and then creating new roles with longer hours.

– Speeding up their work. Broadly only possible by negotiation and agreement which is very unlikely to be achieved.

In the UK public sector none of these approaches to any of the points could even be attempted.

Mr Eagleton is clearly way out of touch with workday reality, like most dyed in the wool socialists – Bless them for their utter and complete naivety.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago

A few factually incorrect points:
He says:
“Bosses have a number of positive ways of exercising power over their employees: firing them, slashing their pay, cutting their tea breaks, imposing longer hours, speeding up their work and so on”
In loose terms, ynder current UK employment laws in the private sector:

– Firing them. Once past probation period this is a months long and arduous process with lots of scope for gaming system by employee. But you can do it in the end.

– Slashing their pay. Effectively not possible outside a bankruptcy scenario

– Cutting their tea breaks. Tea breaks disappeared from most employment in the UK the 80s, you drink as you work in most jobs. The Statutory minimum meal breaks cannot be changed.

– Imposing Longer Hours . You would need to go through a formal consultation process, with an HR lawyer by your side, and even then you we would face expensive legal issues. Usually achieved by making redundant and then creating new roles with longer hours.

– Speeding up their work. Broadly only possible by negotiation and agreement which is very unlikely to be achieved.

In the UK public sector none of these approaches to any of the points could even be attempted.

Mr Eagleton is clearly way out of touch with workday reality, like most dyed in the wool socialists – Bless them for their utter and complete naivety.

Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
1 year ago

I think that what really provokes the workers to strike is deflation. Workers cannot abide, cannot understand the pay cuts and the cost-cutting during, e.g., the post-Napoleonic War and post WWI deflation in England, and the post-Civil War deflation in the US.
Of course, the modern over/under politics means that the ruling class always eggs on he workers or other pet mascots against the deplorable middle class.

Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
1 year ago

I think that what really provokes the workers to strike is deflation. Workers cannot abide, cannot understand the pay cuts and the cost-cutting during, e.g., the post-Napoleonic War and post WWI deflation in England, and the post-Civil War deflation in the US.
Of course, the modern over/under politics means that the ruling class always eggs on he workers or other pet mascots against the deplorable middle class.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

Workers, not least the ever increasing hoardes of automatons who work behind computers in offices, actually live during working hours in a totalitarian state. They have to obey orders, have very limited avenues of complaint, let alone any independent recourse.

Is it any suprise that, outside working hours, they have no understanding of democracy and rights to freedom of speech and independent judgement, and hence watch nu britn become a pale imitation of an amalgum of the DDR, Albania, and a fly blown Latin American dictatorship?

Businesses should have anonymously drawn juries from their work force, who form part of an adjudgment and appeal process, to ensure fair treatment and respect within a work force.

I am totally in favour of unions: they work well in Germany with supervisory board members ( thanks to the TUC, who re- designed the post war German union system, but the self same rejected by the then Labour Government!) and given the voracious self overpayment of modern business directors, who demand entrepreneurial reward for an employee post, are an essential form of rights freedom.

Modern politicians forget how unions and workers were a bulwark of capitalism via their vast pension funds, and stakes in Britain’s biggest businesses who also were the largestvgovernment lender via the gilts market…. and perhaps now would vote against the appallingly high levels of reward and bonus of corporate jobsworths?

Entrepreneurs must be encouraged, and supported with the lowest of taxes, but risk free work should only be rewarded with risk free pay levels… and mining, fishing, and working in shipyards, and on building sites is NOT risk free!!

Trevor B
Trevor B
1 year ago

More likely Britain is becoming like the basket case USA

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Trevor B

Weā€™ve been a US Helot since 1916 when poor old Balfour had to beg for help to beat the ā€˜wicked Hunā€™. We have never, nor ever will recover from that catastrophe.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

I’m willing to try.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

I’m willing to try.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Trevor B

Weā€™ve been a US Helot since 1916 when poor old Balfour had to beg for help to beat the ā€˜wicked Hunā€™. We have never, nor ever will recover from that catastrophe.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

Do you actually have any evidence or experience for this sweeping generalisation ? It doesn’t fit at all with my experiences in the private sector.
Nor does it vary much where in the Western world you go.
I do hope you’re not personally subjected to the sort of misery you seem to feel is universal.
I suggest to you that working conditions in the UK are the best they’ve ever been for the majority of people.
When I first started work, I had to “clock in” and out every day and had pay reduced for even being 10 minutes late. We now have far better workplace equipment and health and safety and far more flexible working arrangements. Employers – in my experience – now have more trust in their employees (working from home would be impossible without this).
Employment tribunals already give enough protection against unfair dismissal. I’ve worked in a struggling start-up which had to pay up to settle a completely spurious unfair dismissal claim (cheaper than disputing it). This is very common.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Whilst working conditions have improved, the levels of pay are considerably worse. A generation ago a worker on an average wage could buy a home and support a family, now two full time workers struggle to do so

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Whilst working conditions have improved, the levels of pay are considerably worse. A generation ago a worker on an average wage could buy a home and support a family, now two full time workers struggle to do so

Trevor B
Trevor B
1 year ago

More likely Britain is becoming like the basket case USA

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

Do you actually have any evidence or experience for this sweeping generalisation ? It doesn’t fit at all with my experiences in the private sector.
Nor does it vary much where in the Western world you go.
I do hope you’re not personally subjected to the sort of misery you seem to feel is universal.
I suggest to you that working conditions in the UK are the best they’ve ever been for the majority of people.
When I first started work, I had to “clock in” and out every day and had pay reduced for even being 10 minutes late. We now have far better workplace equipment and health and safety and far more flexible working arrangements. Employers – in my experience – now have more trust in their employees (working from home would be impossible without this).
Employment tribunals already give enough protection against unfair dismissal. I’ve worked in a struggling start-up which had to pay up to settle a completely spurious unfair dismissal claim (cheaper than disputing it). This is very common.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

Workers, not least the ever increasing hoardes of automatons who work behind computers in offices, actually live during working hours in a totalitarian state. They have to obey orders, have very limited avenues of complaint, let alone any independent recourse.

Is it any suprise that, outside working hours, they have no understanding of democracy and rights to freedom of speech and independent judgement, and hence watch nu britn become a pale imitation of an amalgum of the DDR, Albania, and a fly blown Latin American dictatorship?

Businesses should have anonymously drawn juries from their work force, who form part of an adjudgment and appeal process, to ensure fair treatment and respect within a work force.

I am totally in favour of unions: they work well in Germany with supervisory board members ( thanks to the TUC, who re- designed the post war German union system, but the self same rejected by the then Labour Government!) and given the voracious self overpayment of modern business directors, who demand entrepreneurial reward for an employee post, are an essential form of rights freedom.

Modern politicians forget how unions and workers were a bulwark of capitalism via their vast pension funds, and stakes in Britain’s biggest businesses who also were the largestvgovernment lender via the gilts market…. and perhaps now would vote against the appallingly high levels of reward and bonus of corporate jobsworths?

Entrepreneurs must be encouraged, and supported with the lowest of taxes, but risk free work should only be rewarded with risk free pay levels… and mining, fishing, and working in shipyards, and on building sites is NOT risk free!!

Steven Farrall
Steven Farrall
1 year ago

The ‘right to strike’ is a ‘special privilege’. Like commercial banks being able to create money ex nihilo. Special Privileges are bad things. By all means withhold your labour, but do not expect your employer to hold you job open for you. As you have broken your contract with him why should he?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Farrall

If you want employers to be able to ignore their obligations around strikes, does that mean youā€™d be happy for unions to ignore any of the laws brought in over the last 4 decades that have been designed to curtail their power?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Farrall

If you want employers to be able to ignore their obligations around strikes, does that mean youā€™d be happy for unions to ignore any of the laws brought in over the last 4 decades that have been designed to curtail their power?

Steven Farrall
Steven Farrall
1 year ago

The ‘right to strike’ is a ‘special privilege’. Like commercial banks being able to create money ex nihilo. Special Privileges are bad things. By all means withhold your labour, but do not expect your employer to hold you job open for you. As you have broken your contract with him why should he?

David Giles
David Giles
1 year ago

I wonder what nice words Terry Eagleton has for those workers who exercise their own agency and in their own economic interests as ordinary folk decide to carry on working. I bet he drops the pastel-coloured prose then and just reverts to “SCAB”.

David Giles
David Giles
1 year ago

I wonder what nice words Terry Eagleton has for those workers who exercise their own agency and in their own economic interests as ordinary folk decide to carry on working. I bet he drops the pastel-coloured prose then and just reverts to “SCAB”.

James Jenkin
James Jenkin
1 year ago

Am I the only one to find Terry’s articles hard to follow? Although I just worked out the first paragraph by trying to summarise it in note form

James Jenkin
James Jenkin
1 year ago

Am I the only one to find Terry’s articles hard to follow? Although I just worked out the first paragraph by trying to summarise it in note form

Rachel Taylor
Rachel Taylor
1 year ago

Long on rhetoric, short on logic. If you have an abundance of labour (say, through unlimited immigration) then clearly you will have lower wages. It is just a matter of how the lower wages express themselves. It could be higher in protected union jobs, and lower in unprotected jobs. But it can never be higher in all jobs. Therefore, the unions are simply robbing other workers to enrich themselves. That is the situation we have now. If you have a shortage of labour, then wages will rise. But they will rise faster in the skilled work than the unskilled.
When people work solely for the State (teachers, doctors, etc.) then we have essentially a political strike. In this case the workers are trying to extort political concessions that are not related to the availability of labour. They are essentially trying to mug the electorate.

Rachel Taylor
Rachel Taylor
1 year ago

Long on rhetoric, short on logic. If you have an abundance of labour (say, through unlimited immigration) then clearly you will have lower wages. It is just a matter of how the lower wages express themselves. It could be higher in protected union jobs, and lower in unprotected jobs. But it can never be higher in all jobs. Therefore, the unions are simply robbing other workers to enrich themselves. That is the situation we have now. If you have a shortage of labour, then wages will rise. But they will rise faster in the skilled work than the unskilled.
When people work solely for the State (teachers, doctors, etc.) then we have essentially a political strike. In this case the workers are trying to extort political concessions that are not related to the availability of labour. They are essentially trying to mug the electorate.

Roger Mortimer
Roger Mortimer
1 year ago

You say capital has all the power, but imagine if it behaved as organised labour routinely does:

Having agreed to pay a certain salary when recruiting, an employer decides down the line that they no longer want to. They withhold wages entirely until the employees agree to work for less. Since the employees need to eat and pay their rent, they almost always give in.

That is a strike, with only the polarity reversed.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Roger Mortimer

That already happens, albeit in a much more subtle manner. Employers arenā€™t forced to ensure wages rise in line with inflation, therefore every year that the employees donā€™t see their wages increase at the rate of inflation the employer is essentially giving them a pay cut, and in real terms is paying them less than what was originally agreed in the contract

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

That’s inflation. That’s what the lockdowners wanted.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

It is called inflation youā€™re right, but thatā€™s not the point I was making is it
If the poster is arguing that people shouldnā€™t be allowed to strike as theyā€™d already agreed to get paid Ā£x an hour for their labour, then surely by definition the employer shouldnā€™t be allowed to allow those wages to fall behind the rate of inflation as they are in effect giving that worker a pay cut and are not keeping their side of the contract?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

But if the employer is the state and the state has to print more money to pay them you will feed inflation. Then you have f*ck with interest rates. Helps nobody really.
Business cash flow is not a clean tidy thing either, it’s not always easy to commit to raises in an uncertain environment, because then you potentially expose yourself to the risk of insolvency.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

So workers should accept a pay cut due to their bosses incompetence?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The original post you were replying to is stupid and badly written.
But what are you doing, are you blaming inflation on the bosses incompetence then?
No I am saying it is not always a straightforward thing to commit to pay rises, regardless of whether the employer is the state or a private enterprise. Yes wages probably should keep up with inflation but in real life its sometimes easier said than done, inflation also moves up and down sometimes quite quickly, it’s not always easy to match it if it is unpredictable.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The original post you were replying to is stupid and badly written.
But what are you doing, are you blaming inflation on the bosses incompetence then?
No I am saying it is not always a straightforward thing to commit to pay rises, regardless of whether the employer is the state or a private enterprise. Yes wages probably should keep up with inflation but in real life its sometimes easier said than done, inflation also moves up and down sometimes quite quickly, it’s not always easy to match it if it is unpredictable.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

So workers should accept a pay cut due to their bosses incompetence?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

But if the employer is the state and the state has to print more money to pay them you will feed inflation. Then you have f*ck with interest rates. Helps nobody really.
Business cash flow is not a clean tidy thing either, it’s not always easy to commit to raises in an uncertain environment, because then you potentially expose yourself to the risk of insolvency.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

It is called inflation youā€™re right, but thatā€™s not the point I was making is it
If the poster is arguing that people shouldnā€™t be allowed to strike as theyā€™d already agreed to get paid Ā£x an hour for their labour, then surely by definition the employer shouldnā€™t be allowed to allow those wages to fall behind the rate of inflation as they are in effect giving that worker a pay cut and are not keeping their side of the contract?

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

That’s inflation. That’s what the lockdowners wanted.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Roger Mortimer

That already happens, albeit in a much more subtle manner. Employers arenā€™t forced to ensure wages rise in line with inflation, therefore every year that the employees donā€™t see their wages increase at the rate of inflation the employer is essentially giving them a pay cut, and in real terms is paying them less than what was originally agreed in the contract

Roger Mortimer
Roger Mortimer
1 year ago

You say capital has all the power, but imagine if it behaved as organised labour routinely does:

Having agreed to pay a certain salary when recruiting, an employer decides down the line that they no longer want to. They withhold wages entirely until the employees agree to work for less. Since the employees need to eat and pay their rent, they almost always give in.

That is a strike, with only the polarity reversed.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

There are almost one million job vacancies in Britain today. If you’re unhappy with your pay and conditions, change jobs.
I accept this shouldn’t apply to the NHS, however, as this is the last vestige of the “5 year tractor production plan” mentality. The Government controls the number of medical school places and the NHS is the only avenue by which med school graduates can receive the training to become fully qualified (MRCP etc) and therefore employable. So if we don’t have enough doctors, there is only the State to blame.

jo O'Byrne
jo O'Byrne
1 year ago

Rumour or part of the MSM has it our NHS is SO good Ukrainian refugees return home when they need a doctor

jo O'Byrne
jo O'Byrne
1 year ago

Rumour or part of the MSM has it our NHS is SO good Ukrainian refugees return home when they need a doctor

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

There are almost one million job vacancies in Britain today. If you’re unhappy with your pay and conditions, change jobs.
I accept this shouldn’t apply to the NHS, however, as this is the last vestige of the “5 year tractor production plan” mentality. The Government controls the number of medical school places and the NHS is the only avenue by which med school graduates can receive the training to become fully qualified (MRCP etc) and therefore employable. So if we don’t have enough doctors, there is only the State to blame.

Graeme Kemp
Graeme Kemp
1 year ago

Excellent Terry ! Well said !

Graeme Kemp
Graeme Kemp
1 year ago

Excellent Terry ! Well said !

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
1 year ago

And what happens to all those who are striking in terms of looking after their children, their disabled relatives and older people if all the workers in the Third Sector who provide care and support decide to come out on strike? The majority of these workers are on minimum wage with little career progression and several tiny pension pots. They are the people who prop up the public sector and get no thanks. In fact, most are asked to work several extra hours for no pay in order to provide services not offered by any other organisations

MJ Reid
MJ Reid
1 year ago

And what happens to all those who are striking in terms of looking after their children, their disabled relatives and older people if all the workers in the Third Sector who provide care and support decide to come out on strike? The majority of these workers are on minimum wage with little career progression and several tiny pension pots. They are the people who prop up the public sector and get no thanks. In fact, most are asked to work several extra hours for no pay in order to provide services not offered by any other organisations

Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
1 year ago

As you might expect from a Marxist like Terry Eagleton, this evocative essay contains many, many fundamental errors about what strikes are and what they mean. (Has he ever attempted to operate an economically productive enterprise that would employ his fellow man by satisfying the needs of customers?)
When an employee is fired “only the employee suffers,” he says ignorantly ā€“ no, it generally means a loss of productivity for the company, an increased burden on fellow employees, reduced service for customers and clients, etc. An employee is fired only when, on balance, they are harming the business more than a replacement employee (if available) would help it.
“Nobody objects to the right to withhold one’s labour,” he says, as if that’s what a strike is. No, that would be quitting your job (which is indeed unobjectionable). If a strike complies with the legal requirements for collective action, then the employer is not allowed to replace the strikers with new workers to do the job that the strikers are refusing to do. So striking is ā€“ by definition ā€“ not the right to withhold your labor, but the right to withhold someone else’s. The marvelous brotherhood of man, eh?
“The real anarchist is a market-driven society in which nobody is in charge.” Ahh, now the Marxist’s true colors come through. His real fear is… human economic freedom ā€“ that “no one is in charge” to tell others what to do. No, no one is in charge of everything ā€“ but everyone is in charge of something: themselves. Go be responsible for yourself. Some will succeed, some will fail, but everyone in general will be better off.
PS. One more: “There is a curious belief that social disruption is a bad thing in itself,” he says, before citing the precedent of Jews disrupting an Oswald Mosley march. But wasn’t Mosley trying to disrupt something, too? Perhaps we all share the same view of social disruption: it’s fine, until it disrupts something important to *me.*

Last edited 1 year ago by Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
1 year ago

As you might expect from a Marxist like Terry Eagleton, this evocative essay contains many, many fundamental errors about what strikes are and what they mean. (Has he ever attempted to operate an economically productive enterprise that would employ his fellow man by satisfying the needs of customers?)
When an employee is fired “only the employee suffers,” he says ignorantly ā€“ no, it generally means a loss of productivity for the company, an increased burden on fellow employees, reduced service for customers and clients, etc. An employee is fired only when, on balance, they are harming the business more than a replacement employee (if available) would help it.
“Nobody objects to the right to withhold one’s labour,” he says, as if that’s what a strike is. No, that would be quitting your job (which is indeed unobjectionable). If a strike complies with the legal requirements for collective action, then the employer is not allowed to replace the strikers with new workers to do the job that the strikers are refusing to do. So striking is ā€“ by definition ā€“ not the right to withhold your labor, but the right to withhold someone else’s. The marvelous brotherhood of man, eh?
“The real anarchist is a market-driven society in which nobody is in charge.” Ahh, now the Marxist’s true colors come through. His real fear is… human economic freedom ā€“ that “no one is in charge” to tell others what to do. No, no one is in charge of everything ā€“ but everyone is in charge of something: themselves. Go be responsible for yourself. Some will succeed, some will fail, but everyone in general will be better off.
PS. One more: “There is a curious belief that social disruption is a bad thing in itself,” he says, before citing the precedent of Jews disrupting an Oswald Mosley march. But wasn’t Mosley trying to disrupt something, too? Perhaps we all share the same view of social disruption: it’s fine, until it disrupts something important to *me.*

Last edited 1 year ago by Kirk Susong
Philip Clayton
Philip Clayton
1 year ago

So basically workers have no rights at all then? I will take a guess you haven’t seen your pay fall in value by aeound 26%. I’ll take a punt that your employment doesn’t make you work gruelling, sleep-deprived hours while taking life and death decisions. If you bothered to read anything or listen to any of the striking health workers they all say they want to deliver professional levels of service and care but can’t BECAUSE there is a chronic shortage of staff which means UNSAFE care. Strangely these people you accuse of acting unprofessionally are at the end of their tether because the CAN’T deliver a professional service that meets even adequacy.One of the reasons behind the chronic shortage of staff is people are leaving in their tens of thousands because of the low pay and stress they are subjected to. Who would have thunk it? Not you obviously. In the meantime the British government is stripping some of the poorest countries in the world of their qualified doctors and nurses, such as Botswana, Ghana, Nigeria, etc.I expect you think that’s a good thing because the ‘market’ rules ok.EVERY single time a Tory government comes in they reliably cut real funds for the NHS, education, social security and social services and thyis destruction of the public realm is always done in the name of hare brained notions of public spending stifling private investment. Complete bollocks. But the NHS alone would have had 32 HUNDRED BILLION more if the government had simply kepst spending at the same level as they inherited. Fact are really inconvenient are they not?

Philip Clayton
Philip Clayton
1 year ago

So basically workers have no rights at all then? I will take a guess you haven’t seen your pay fall in value by aeound 26%. I’ll take a punt that your employment doesn’t make you work gruelling, sleep-deprived hours while taking life and death decisions. If you bothered to read anything or listen to any of the striking health workers they all say they want to deliver professional levels of service and care but can’t BECAUSE there is a chronic shortage of staff which means UNSAFE care. Strangely these people you accuse of acting unprofessionally are at the end of their tether because the CAN’T deliver a professional service that meets even adequacy.One of the reasons behind the chronic shortage of staff is people are leaving in their tens of thousands because of the low pay and stress they are subjected to. Who would have thunk it? Not you obviously. In the meantime the British government is stripping some of the poorest countries in the world of their qualified doctors and nurses, such as Botswana, Ghana, Nigeria, etc.I expect you think that’s a good thing because the ‘market’ rules ok.EVERY single time a Tory government comes in they reliably cut real funds for the NHS, education, social security and social services and thyis destruction of the public realm is always done in the name of hare brained notions of public spending stifling private investment. Complete bollocks. But the NHS alone would have had 32 HUNDRED BILLION more if the government had simply kepst spending at the same level as they inherited. Fact are really inconvenient are they not?

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

The dull truth is that strikes as temporary withdrawal of labour are not very effective. The ‘real’ permanent withdrawal of labour, resigning and finding a job elsewhere or employers finding they cannot recruit new workers, can be effective. But few people are willing to give up a job in the interests of those who remain.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Most canā€™t afford to give up their job. Most of us are skilled in one sector, therefore are limited in our employment options if we want to maintain the standard of living we currently enjoy

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Most canā€™t afford to give up their job. Most of us are skilled in one sector, therefore are limited in our employment options if we want to maintain the standard of living we currently enjoy

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

The dull truth is that strikes as temporary withdrawal of labour are not very effective. The ‘real’ permanent withdrawal of labour, resigning and finding a job elsewhere or employers finding they cannot recruit new workers, can be effective. But few people are willing to give up a job in the interests of those who remain.

Tony Lee
Tony Lee
1 year ago

Yet pay is only one metric in terms of remuneration. Pension entitlement, holiday entitlement, sick pay entitlement etc all play into the whole, but largely ignored when making comparisons between public and private sector. As a former self-employed person I had none of those by right and striking would have hurt only my family, not that I wouldnā€™t have loved some time out on occasion. Going on strike it seems to me, is a consequence of a fundamental dishonesty on the part of both parties, with neither side entirely honest in their negotiating standpoint. Less a strike and more a Mexican stand off, where everyone loses in the end. The answer must surely lie in open, honest, willing negotiation, which is what I tried to do with my employees. And guess what, no one ever went on strike and productivity was excellent. Because we looked at remuneration in the whole and werenā€™t fixated on rates of pay, which is proven to be a short term motivator in any case. Pay disputes in this country become immediately politicised and thereafter set on a course quite apart from honesty, willingness and transparent negotiation.
An example of where pay agreements can backfire, is with GPs. A few years ago they claimed they were underpaid. And so the government gave them more money. Did they work harder, did the service they provide improve? No, not at all. GPs arenā€™t contracted employees of the NHS (an important element of the remuneration package), so they decided that a pay increase might mean they could work less, because they were earning more. As a consequence something like 60-70% of GPs work only two to three days a week. Which is why most of us canā€™t get to see a GP face to face.
The government and trade unions are blunt instruments when it comes to negotiating pay and conditions and neither of them are entirely honest.

David Lewis
David Lewis
1 year ago

When did ā€˜incrementā€™ become a verb? Stop it!

Chris Parkins
Chris Parkins
1 year ago

At the age I was at the time, I can tell you that the “feminists who noisily interrupted” the Miss World show back in the day was not in fact “the only interesting aspect of the show” šŸ˜‰

David Murphy
David Murphy
1 year ago

What is required is to consider the workplace for what it is: an autocracy, not a democracy. Withholding one’s labor is however, a democratic action, and needs to be. Any contract is not a perpetual instrument; it needs adjusting but, after much discussion and debate, if there is no other option, no further recourse, then withdrawing from work is the only thing left to do. It is a pressure valve of frustration
We should also look upon striking as a symptom, of something much larger–not the cause. We could at this point, write books of what the cause(s) is but there is something very wrong with this country’s willingness to improve itself, to examine objectively the reasons we cannot, or will not, pay our dues, instead we are weighed down by political philosophies we can, no longer afford, if we ever could. People who work should be paid a living wage and not have to resort to food banks to make ends meet; it’s degrading and insulting.
What the government, and its people, need do now is re-examine how we got here and what needs be done to bring about a better existence.
A plan should be long-term with short term goals. All of this, all of what we feel is wrong with the country needs addressing, perhaps with bodies of individuals, up and down the land, willing to debate, examine and recommend. These bodies don’t need to consist of elected officials, only, but be made up of the ordinary person who deal with this mess, on a daily basis
If we are to remain ‘great’ we must ask the right questions and be willing to implement what answers we come to, in a spirit of consensus. We should ask; if Capitalism is the only way; if proportional representation might suite a country better with a 67-million population figure to represent.That’s less than an acre per person But our government is not an open institution anymore and cannot administer effectively, but seeks only to hide behind obfuscations of its own making Its only goal now is the winning of the next General Election so it can carry on as usual; nothing else seems to matter. In this atmosphere, strikes will take place and we, as concerned human beings, must support them.

David Murphy
David Murphy
1 year ago

What is required is to consider the workplace for what it is: an autocracy, not a democracy. Withholding one’s labor is however, a democratic action, and needs to be. Any contract is not a perpetual instrument; it needs adjusting but, after much discussion and debate, if there is no other option, no further recourse, then withdrawing from work is the only thing left to do. It is a pressure valve of frustration
We should also look upon striking as a symptom, of something much larger–not the cause. We could at this point, write books of what the cause(s) is but there is something very wrong with this country’s willingness to improve itself, to examine objectively the reasons we cannot, or will not, pay our dues, instead we are weighed down by political philosophies we can, no longer afford, if we ever could. People who work should be paid a living wage and not have to resort to food banks to make ends meet; it’s degrading and insulting.
What the government, and its people, need do now is re-examine how we got here and what needs be done to bring about a better existence.
A plan should be long-term with short term goals. All of this, all of what we feel is wrong with the country needs addressing, perhaps with bodies of individuals, up and down the land, willing to debate, examine and recommend. These bodies don’t need to consist of elected officials, only, but be made up of the ordinary person who deal with this mess, on a daily basis
If we are to remain ‘great’ we must ask the right questions and be willing to implement what answers we come to, in a spirit of consensus. We should ask; if Capitalism is the only way; if proportional representation might suite a country better with a 67-million population figure to represent.That’s less than an acre per person But our government is not an open institution anymore and cannot administer effectively, but seeks only to hide behind obfuscations of its own making Its only goal now is the winning of the next General Election so it can carry on as usual; nothing else seems to matter. In this atmosphere, strikes will take place and we, as concerned human beings, must support them.

Paul T
Paul T
1 year ago

Drivel.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul T

Succinct comment; perhaps you could expand please.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul T

Succinct comment; perhaps you could expand please.

Paul T
Paul T
1 year ago

Drivel.

ivan Helmer
ivan Helmer
1 year ago

Wonderful article. But he had to be very precocious to see Jewish man and women etc in Manchester, having only been born in February 1943.

ivan Helmer
ivan Helmer
1 year ago

Wonderful article. But he had to be very precocious to see Jewish man and women etc in Manchester, having only been born in February 1943.

Zaph Mann
Zaph Mann
1 year ago

As usual – a considered piece mostly denigrated and taken off topic into tribal views by Unherd btl commentators… I differ in view from about 50% of the Unherd postings, but many good, quality and diverse articles undercut by rejections ranging from the partisan (at best) to the downright idiotic. PS: I could have put this comment under most articles

Zaph Mann
Zaph Mann
1 year ago

As usual – a considered piece mostly denigrated and taken off topic into tribal views by Unherd btl commentators… I differ in view from about 50% of the Unherd postings, but many good, quality and diverse articles undercut by rejections ranging from the partisan (at best) to the downright idiotic. PS: I could have put this comment under most articles