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Poland’s futile bid to be Ukraine’s saviour Its politicians care more about provoking the EU

Poland is building the largest army in Europe. Sean Gallup/Getty Images

Poland is building the largest army in Europe. Sean Gallup/Getty Images


February 20, 2023   4 mins

Tomorrow, President Joe Biden will mark the first anniversary of the Russian invasion not in Berlin or Paris — but in Warsaw. There, he will turn a blind eye to Poland’s nationalist government, and pat President Andrzej Duda on the back for his leading role in supporting Ukraine. Thanks to the war, Poland is having its moment in the sun.

Since the first day of the invasion, Poland’s support for Ukraine has been unwavering. It has sent significant amounts of military equipment, including dozens of tanks, and its army is training Ukrainian soldiers to use 14 Leopard-2 tanks as quickly as possible. On the diplomatic front, it never ceases to beat the drum for its besieged neighbour. After all, Poland has an existential interest in thwarting Vladimir Putin’s imperial ambitions, especially with Russian troops looming across the border in Belarus.

To establish its authority at the heart of Europe, it plans to amass the largest land army in the Continent, with 300,000 troops, and has just announced a hike in defence spending from 2.4% to 5% of GDP to facilitate it. Already, it has welcomed more than 1.5 million Ukrainian refugees, more than any other European country.

Warsaw also appears to be forging a regional alliance of Nato nations in Eastern Europe. From the Baltic to the Black Sea, the “Bucharest Nine”, a group that formed after the Russia’s annexation of Crimea, are united by a traumatic history of Soviet Russian dominance and occupation. On Duda’s initiative, Biden will meet with the group, which is pushing for more Nato resources to be moved to its Eastern flank.

Balkans expert Timothy Less calls this the “new Warsaw Pact”, which rather than defending Russia’s interests, seeks to protect central and Eastern Europe from the Russians. For Less, this is a strategy that echoes the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth born in the late Middle Ages, as well as the Intermarium, a fanciful plan by Polish leader Józef PiƂsudski to form a superstate from the Baltic to the Black Sea after the First World War. Behind each of these alliances was a fear of bullying neighbours over the centuries — Prussia, the German Reich, Austria-Hungary and, of course, Russia.

Poland’s Eastern European alliance, according to Less, “would marginalise France and Germany, threaten the predominant position of the EU in Europe and galvanise its seeming slow-motion decline”. It’s a vision that will appeal to Eurosceptics across the Continent: a new era in which the US gradually moves its military resources from Germany to Poland, a growing hub of power and influence.

Alas, the tale of Franco-German decline is almost as old as the EU. While Poland might have impressive military ambitions, its politics is still riddled with contradictions. Its hardline nationalism comes across as immature and foolish, as seen in its provocative games with its largest trading partner, Germany, and the entity that has allowed it to flourish, the EU.

Since the Law and Justice party (PiS) came to power in 2015, it’s never missed a chance to vilify Germany. When a popular German tabloid, Fakt, reported that Duda had pardoned a convicted child abuser in 2020, the Polish President accused its owner Axel Springer of meddling in Polish elections.

Other criticism is entirely justifiable: Poland points to decades of Germany cosying up to Russia, as symbolised by the now-destroyed Nord Stream pipelines, which deliberately circumvented Poland and Ukraine, and delivered Germany with an endless supply of cheap Siberian natural gas. But let’s not forget that, until recently, Poland itself was also dependent on Russian hydrocarbons.

Poland is too proud to admit Germany’s role in its economic success story. Its politicians may rant about the EU being a German “Fourth Reich”, but Poland’s last 20 years of prosperity are largely thanks to German growth. German GDP per capita is more than twice as high as Poland’s, with the latter acting as a relatively cheap workshop for German industrial firms within the EU free-trade area. Annual exports to Germany, at around €70 billion, are five times higher than to any other country.

Yet trash-talking Germany seems to be a necessary ingredient in the PiS’ grip on power. The latest affront came in the form of Poland’s demand for Second World War reparations. The price tag: €1.3 trillion. In October, Poland sent the bill to Germany, in the form of a diplomatic note. Of course, Poland has no legal ground to stand on: it waived its claims to reparations in 1953. But the PiS, which knows this full well, hopes to exploit the narrative of Polish victimhood ahead of parliamentary elections this autumn. It doesn’t exactly give the impression of a grown-up country taking on a new leadership role in Europe. Nor does the fact that, when the German defence minister Boris Pistorius visited Poland earlier this month to discuss weapons shipments for Ukraine, his Polish counterpart Mariusz BƂaszczak refused to appear in public with him. Apparently, for a PiS politician, there’s nothing more cringe than a photo with a German.

Then there is Poland’s equally fraught relationship with the European Union. Poland is still by far the greatest net recipient of EU funding. While Germany contributed €21 billion to the EU budget in 2021, Poland received €12.9 billion, more than any other state. How does it show its gratitude? With its middle finger.

The current showdown between the European Commission and Poland is a case in point. The Commission is withholding €36 billion in post-pandemic recovery funds until the Polish government implements specific reforms of its judicial system that will nominally bring Poland back in line with EU law. In recent years, Poland has granted the executive branch increasing control over the courts, ostensibly to purge the courts of old communist-era judges.

A €36 billion cash injection would be helpful in the run up to an election. That’s why the lower house of parliament, the Sejm, approved a step to reintroduce a degree of independence to disciplinary procedures against judges, in the hope that it would be just enough to placate the EU. But President Duda refused to sign the legislation. Instead, he asked the Constitutional Tribunal to scrutinise it for its constitutionality. That court itself is considered to be under PiS control, one of the EU’s complaints.

For now, PiS is leading the polls. But its position is less than secure. Civic Platform, an opposition party led by pro-European former prime minister Donald Tusk, is nibbling at its heels and could assemble a sizeable coalition. Perhaps this is why the government is resorting to ever-more dubious tactics, such as increasing the number of polling stations in villages — an obvious ploy to attract more votes from older, more conservative rural voters.

Poland, then, may be keen to pose as the compassionate and brave saviour of Ukraine, but it remains stuck in the past, with an unhealthy obsession with provoking Germany and the EU, although it owes much of its prosperity to them both. As Piotr Buras of the European Council for Foreign Relations Warsaw office, speaking on German TV, said: “It’s both a leader and a pariah.”


Maurice Frank co-founded the English magazine Exberliner and now co-writes the newsletter 20 Percent Berlin. 

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Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

The article feels like a smear job to me. I’m not familiar with the political machinations of Poland and Eastern Europe, but I can certainly spot the derogatory language.

How can we be so sure Poland’s economic success is dependent on the EU? Eastern Europe appears to be on the rise because it embraces economic growth, while Western Europe imposes ever more regulatory restrictions and costly barriers to business.

West Germany outsources a lot of its supply chain to Poland for a reason – because it’s cost effective. If it was cheaper to do business in Italy, I’m sure it would do that instead.

I’m not sure what to make of this statement; “In recent years, Poland has granted the executive branch increasing control over the courts
” This might be true, but on the surface it doesn’t make sense. How do you give the executive control over the judiciary? Is this true, or has the Polish govt given more authority to the elected legislative branch?

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Veenbaas
Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I’m not familiar with the political machinations of Poland and Eastern Europe, 

And yet you comment

How can we be so sure Poland’s economic success is dependent on the EU

You can measure trade, investment, technology transfers and EU spending on Polish infrastructure.

This might be true, but on the surface it doesn’t make sense.

Do you have a comprehension problem?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Poland’s economic success is dependent on the EU

Investment, trade, access to (german) technology, acces to global markets (through German exports), EU budget transfers?

Barakuda Barakuda
Barakuda Barakuda
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Politicians and EU bureaucrats are the biggest threats to your financial security. They have been depreciating the currency for years, and encourage a catastrophe that may now be imminent for EU countries. The next revolution we need for human societies to thrive is to peaceably dispose of these UE grandiose incumbents. They represent a parasite class. 

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Yes, hatchet job on Poland for really supporting Ukraine, unlike Germany and France.
And for proving that both PiS and former president Kaczynski were right about Russia, whereas Germany and France were not.
Idea that Poland occupied by Russia and terrorised by Stalinist policies had any say in 1953 war reparation decision is just sick joke.
Changes to judicial structures map quite closely systems in other EU countries like Germany.
Anyway, EU is trying to impose its policies in areas which are not part of EU treaties.
Justification for this “judicial activism” is given as ” Poland not following established EU customs”.
Obviously when Merkel invited mass immigration into Europe without consultation with EU members and then tried to force others to share consequences of her decision, that was compliant with EU rules.
When Germany build Nordstream, which is economic equivalent of Ribentrop-Molotov pact, facing protests from other EU countries, it was again all in compliance with EU rules.
Because Germany said so.
Obviously, underlying all of this is idea that there are different classes of EU membership.
As Chirac told Polish PM ” you should be greatful you are in, so just do as you are told”.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I’m not familiar with the political machinations of Poland and Eastern Europe, 

And yet you comment

How can we be so sure Poland’s economic success is dependent on the EU

You can measure trade, investment, technology transfers and EU spending on Polish infrastructure.

This might be true, but on the surface it doesn’t make sense.

Do you have a comprehension problem?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Poland’s economic success is dependent on the EU

Investment, trade, access to (german) technology, acces to global markets (through German exports), EU budget transfers?

Barakuda Barakuda
Barakuda Barakuda
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Politicians and EU bureaucrats are the biggest threats to your financial security. They have been depreciating the currency for years, and encourage a catastrophe that may now be imminent for EU countries. The next revolution we need for human societies to thrive is to peaceably dispose of these UE grandiose incumbents. They represent a parasite class. 

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Yes, hatchet job on Poland for really supporting Ukraine, unlike Germany and France.
And for proving that both PiS and former president Kaczynski were right about Russia, whereas Germany and France were not.
Idea that Poland occupied by Russia and terrorised by Stalinist policies had any say in 1953 war reparation decision is just sick joke.
Changes to judicial structures map quite closely systems in other EU countries like Germany.
Anyway, EU is trying to impose its policies in areas which are not part of EU treaties.
Justification for this “judicial activism” is given as ” Poland not following established EU customs”.
Obviously when Merkel invited mass immigration into Europe without consultation with EU members and then tried to force others to share consequences of her decision, that was compliant with EU rules.
When Germany build Nordstream, which is economic equivalent of Ribentrop-Molotov pact, facing protests from other EU countries, it was again all in compliance with EU rules.
Because Germany said so.
Obviously, underlying all of this is idea that there are different classes of EU membership.
As Chirac told Polish PM ” you should be greatful you are in, so just do as you are told”.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

The article feels like a smear job to me. I’m not familiar with the political machinations of Poland and Eastern Europe, but I can certainly spot the derogatory language.

How can we be so sure Poland’s economic success is dependent on the EU? Eastern Europe appears to be on the rise because it embraces economic growth, while Western Europe imposes ever more regulatory restrictions and costly barriers to business.

West Germany outsources a lot of its supply chain to Poland for a reason – because it’s cost effective. If it was cheaper to do business in Italy, I’m sure it would do that instead.

I’m not sure what to make of this statement; “In recent years, Poland has granted the executive branch increasing control over the courts
” This might be true, but on the surface it doesn’t make sense. How do you give the executive control over the judiciary? Is this true, or has the Polish govt given more authority to the elected legislative branch?

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Veenbaas
Malcolm Webb
Malcolm Webb
1 year ago

Strikes me the author has his own axe to grind. Seems to be saying “‘How dare the Poles disagree with the EU and how dare they elect a nationalist government!” Are these really now grounds for immediate condemnation? I gave up reading after paragraph four.

Malcolm Webb
Malcolm Webb
1 year ago

Strikes me the author has his own axe to grind. Seems to be saying “‘How dare the Poles disagree with the EU and how dare they elect a nationalist government!” Are these really now grounds for immediate condemnation? I gave up reading after paragraph four.

David Adams
David Adams
1 year ago

‘Poland, then, may be keen to pose as the compassionate and brave saviour of Ukraine, but it remains stuck in the past, with an unhealthy obsession with provoking Germany and the EU, although it owes much of its prosperity to them both.’

The lack of self-awareness is cringeworthy: a writer, apparently with a straight face pens an EU-Germany apology which accuses other people of smug ungrateful freeloading.

Michael James
Michael James
1 year ago
Reply to  David Adams

That’s the EU deal, isn’t it — its members freeload on one another. In this instance the rest of the EU freeloads on Poland’s big defence budget.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael James

 EU freeloads on Poland’s big defence budget.

No it doesn’t! But Poland does freeload (using your term) on EU transfers.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael James

 EU freeloads on Poland’s big defence budget.

No it doesn’t! But Poland does freeload (using your term) on EU transfers.

Michael James
Michael James
1 year ago
Reply to  David Adams

That’s the EU deal, isn’t it — its members freeload on one another. In this instance the rest of the EU freeloads on Poland’s big defence budget.

David Adams
David Adams
1 year ago

‘Poland, then, may be keen to pose as the compassionate and brave saviour of Ukraine, but it remains stuck in the past, with an unhealthy obsession with provoking Germany and the EU, although it owes much of its prosperity to them both.’

The lack of self-awareness is cringeworthy: a writer, apparently with a straight face pens an EU-Germany apology which accuses other people of smug ungrateful freeloading.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago

I’m glad that someone is enlarging their army and when it comes to it the Poles WILL fight.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago

I’m glad that someone is enlarging their army and when it comes to it the Poles WILL fight.

Perry de Havilland
Perry de Havilland
1 year ago

Poland’s futile bid to be Ukraine’s saviour? Without Poland’s unwavering support, Ukraine would have collapsed by now. So whilst the parallel universe this article was written in sounds interesting, in this reality things are a bit different.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago

I thought it was UK’s support – that is what Telegraph/Spectator tells me
Mathematically (we can measure it) US is the big beast (plus intel through)..
but you say is Poland. OK.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago

I thought it was UK’s support – that is what Telegraph/Spectator tells me
Mathematically (we can measure it) US is the big beast (plus intel through)..
but you say is Poland. OK.

Perry de Havilland
Perry de Havilland
1 year ago

Poland’s futile bid to be Ukraine’s saviour? Without Poland’s unwavering support, Ukraine would have collapsed by now. So whilst the parallel universe this article was written in sounds interesting, in this reality things are a bit different.

Patrick Fox
Patrick Fox
1 year ago

The John Lichfield of Germany (or rather Berlin)!!! very poor analysis.Another spurious partisan penpusher.

Patrick Fox
Patrick Fox
1 year ago

The John Lichfield of Germany (or rather Berlin)!!! very poor analysis.Another spurious partisan penpusher.

Agata Kania
Agata Kania
1 year ago

I am from Poland, and I would like to point out that I did not and will not vote for PiS. I am critical of their antagonistic policy towards Germany and the EU. Poland owes a lot economically and socially to the EU. This is a fact that many in my country forget. The author of the article and Timothy Less seem to forget that Poland’s aid to Ukraine is not only a weapon. Millions of Polish citizens helped millions of Ukrainian refugees from the first day of the war by welcoming them into their own homes, donating money, food, and clothes to help Ukraine and Ukrainians. I myself was a volunteer at one of the Warsaw train stations when the war began. Some people literally got off the trains in pyjamas with a cat or a dog in one hand and a baby in the other. This is all they have left of their life’s achievements, thanks to Russia. It is interesting that the author of the article somehow ignores the involvement of us ordinary Polish people. Probably because it doesn’t fit his agenda: Poland and other countries in Central and Eastern Europe help Ukraine to spite Germany. Well, we help Ukraine, because for several decades we had the opportunity to personally know the true face of Russian friendship, and we do not want to see it ever again. Finally, I would like to point out that it was not Polish but German politicians who were employed in Russian gas companies for their own material gains, and at the same time acted to the detriment of their country and the EU. It was in Germany, under the dictation of the Green Party, that nuclear energy was abandoned in favour of Russian gas. We can all see how political rather than ecological these ideas were. There is no doubt that they were controlled from Moscow.

Agata Kania
Agata Kania
1 year ago

I am from Poland, and I would like to point out that I did not and will not vote for PiS. I am critical of their antagonistic policy towards Germany and the EU. Poland owes a lot economically and socially to the EU. This is a fact that many in my country forget. The author of the article and Timothy Less seem to forget that Poland’s aid to Ukraine is not only a weapon. Millions of Polish citizens helped millions of Ukrainian refugees from the first day of the war by welcoming them into their own homes, donating money, food, and clothes to help Ukraine and Ukrainians. I myself was a volunteer at one of the Warsaw train stations when the war began. Some people literally got off the trains in pyjamas with a cat or a dog in one hand and a baby in the other. This is all they have left of their life’s achievements, thanks to Russia. It is interesting that the author of the article somehow ignores the involvement of us ordinary Polish people. Probably because it doesn’t fit his agenda: Poland and other countries in Central and Eastern Europe help Ukraine to spite Germany. Well, we help Ukraine, because for several decades we had the opportunity to personally know the true face of Russian friendship, and we do not want to see it ever again. Finally, I would like to point out that it was not Polish but German politicians who were employed in Russian gas companies for their own material gains, and at the same time acted to the detriment of their country and the EU. It was in Germany, under the dictation of the Green Party, that nuclear energy was abandoned in favour of Russian gas. We can all see how political rather than ecological these ideas were. There is no doubt that they were controlled from Moscow.

Martin Terrell
Martin Terrell
1 year ago

The idea of the Inermarium after World War 1 may have been fanciful, but imagine if it had been pulled off? It would surely have deterred Russia and Germany from expanding westwards and eastwards and saved a few million lives as well.

Martin Terrell
Martin Terrell
1 year ago

The idea of the Inermarium after World War 1 may have been fanciful, but imagine if it had been pulled off? It would surely have deterred Russia and Germany from expanding westwards and eastwards and saved a few million lives as well.

JĂŒrg Gassmann
JĂŒrg Gassmann
1 year ago

The US is taking advantage of the immaturity, sense of inferiority and revanchist dreams of restoring lost glories (thwarted by Germany and Russia) that dominate the hysterical foreign policies of Poland and the Baltic States.
The EU used to provide a stabilising framework for these politics – the bargain offered by the EU was prosperity in return for giving up on revanchism and ethnic minority-oppressing chauvinism. Unfortunately, no longer. Under von der Leyen, Michel, and Borrell, the EU is degrading itself to a NATO enforcer. The EU’s own wholesale violation of the principles of constitutional liberal democracy have disqualified it as an arbiter of member state policies in the area of individual rights.
The purpose of the “Intermarium” is to prevent the US’ worst strategic nightmare: A team-up of Russian energy and raw materials and German technology and manufacturing. Like the Ukraine is now, the nations of the Intermarium are just there to serve US interests, no matter the cost to them.

TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago

100%.

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago

A “team-up of Russian energy and raw materials and German technology and manufacturing” is just about everyone‘s worst nightmare – and it should worry the Germans too. Nordstream was deemed a great idea in Germany – until it wasn’t.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago

Absurd comment
Russia invaded Ukraine.

TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago

100%.

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago

A “team-up of Russian energy and raw materials and German technology and manufacturing” is just about everyone‘s worst nightmare – and it should worry the Germans too. Nordstream was deemed a great idea in Germany – until it wasn’t.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago

Absurd comment
Russia invaded Ukraine.

JĂŒrg Gassmann
JĂŒrg Gassmann
1 year ago

The US is taking advantage of the immaturity, sense of inferiority and revanchist dreams of restoring lost glories (thwarted by Germany and Russia) that dominate the hysterical foreign policies of Poland and the Baltic States.
The EU used to provide a stabilising framework for these politics – the bargain offered by the EU was prosperity in return for giving up on revanchism and ethnic minority-oppressing chauvinism. Unfortunately, no longer. Under von der Leyen, Michel, and Borrell, the EU is degrading itself to a NATO enforcer. The EU’s own wholesale violation of the principles of constitutional liberal democracy have disqualified it as an arbiter of member state policies in the area of individual rights.
The purpose of the “Intermarium” is to prevent the US’ worst strategic nightmare: A team-up of Russian energy and raw materials and German technology and manufacturing. Like the Ukraine is now, the nations of the Intermarium are just there to serve US interests, no matter the cost to them.

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago

The article by Timothy Less mentioned here is well worth a read. It is about a nascent defence agreement between the US, UK, Baltic States, Poland and Ukraine. Very interesting!

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago

The article by Timothy Less mentioned here is well worth a read. It is about a nascent defence agreement between the US, UK, Baltic States, Poland and Ukraine. Very interesting!

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago

Politicians in a democratic state saying stupid things that appeal to their most mouth-breathing constituents, in order to attain power? Say it ain’t so!

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

Apparently someone thinks I said something wrong, but won’t expend the time to point out my error.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

true!

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

true!

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

Apparently someone thinks I said something wrong, but won’t expend the time to point out my error.

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago

Politicians in a democratic state saying stupid things that appeal to their most mouth-breathing constituents, in order to attain power? Say it ain’t so!

TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago

Nothing could be worse for Europe than Poland being dragged (or propelling itself) into this sheer madness.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

They did the same in 1939.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago

Ah but this time they’ll be riding Leopards instead of Horses.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago

Ah but this time they’ll be riding Leopards instead of Horses.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

They did the same in 1939.

TheElephant InTheRoom
TheElephant InTheRoom
1 year ago

Nothing could be worse for Europe than Poland being dragged (or propelling itself) into this sheer madness.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago

It does seem to me that if all of the previous Warsaw Pact states left NATO but banded together as a similar defensive, but crucially non-nuclear, alignment then much of the wind would be taken out of Putin’s sails. That new pact could then align with NATO but crucially with no NATO weapons or forces on their territory. Russia could not complain of American interference and maybe other previous Soviet states could conceivably join up. That would give the new pact sufficient clout to feel safe from Russian imperial designs and be a stronger motor for peace than the current arrangement.

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Your take on Putin’s character is ‘interesting’. Next time you meet up with an armed mugger, why don’t you appeal to their good nature, too?
Not that having a new European defensive alliance is a bad idea, but the non-nuclear part is, IMO, futile when facing a nuclear-armed opponent. It’s like taking a bigger un-armed group to confront a mugger armed with a gun.

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Your take on Putin’s character is ‘interesting’. Next time you meet up with an armed mugger, why don’t you appeal to their good nature, too?
Not that having a new European defensive alliance is a bad idea, but the non-nuclear part is, IMO, futile when facing a nuclear-armed opponent. It’s like taking a bigger un-armed group to confront a mugger armed with a gun.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago

It does seem to me that if all of the previous Warsaw Pact states left NATO but banded together as a similar defensive, but crucially non-nuclear, alignment then much of the wind would be taken out of Putin’s sails. That new pact could then align with NATO but crucially with no NATO weapons or forces on their territory. Russia could not complain of American interference and maybe other previous Soviet states could conceivably join up. That would give the new pact sufficient clout to feel safe from Russian imperial designs and be a stronger motor for peace than the current arrangement.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

Sending money and arms to Ukraine is the new ‘Masking’ – everyone was sheep talked into it by the weasels in MSM and social media – and so Citizens believed in their pathological ‘Mass Formation Psychosis‘; and displayed by their flag of submission/virtue – the Mask – it was the banner of their Purity, their Militancy – and any not masking were the enemy they turned on to rend…… ÂŁ500 fines for bicycling alone on the beach without a mask.

Till a wile ago… when everyone finally realized masking is Pointless virtue signaling – in fact has been part of the destruction of health and education, and oldies dying alone wile being ignored by people in space suits….

And like masking, this extremely insane creating of WWIII in Ukraine, is being kept on and on well past the point of reason, and now every sane person realizes it is a BAD idea – but the sheer inertia – and the sheer $Billions feeding into corruption – keeps this war from finding some resolution at the peace table.

Biden, Boris, and the Poles…. the last true believers after most have seen what a mistake it is…

But then remember the past… The Polish ‘Parliament’ were the ones who invented the political process of Defenestration’… haha – a mechanism of keeping all onside as if someone held out against the group think they would rise up and fling that person, that wrong thinker, out the window to their death.

This is Politics Biden, Boris, and the Poles see as totally excellent… and it has worked thus far… only now cracks are showing….the group are less inclined to jump to it and pitch the opponent out the window as there are more and more of them…starting to notice the citizens are not really still wearing the crazy mask…..not waving the yellow and blue flags……

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Wasn’t it the Czechs/Bohemians who ‘invented’ DEFENESTRATION?

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago

Yes it was; peformed by the Hussites in Prague. It may have gone on earlier, I suppose, but this was the first known event.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

If it were to be reintroduced I would suggest The Shard as the venue.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago

Indeed, c.1618 (look it up) which precipitated the 30 years’ war, in which some 5 out of 25 million inhabitants of the Holy Roman Empire (sort of today’s Germany and surrounds) died. Statistics I’m sure that Putin would be proud of.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

The Hussites Linda mentioned somewhat pre-dated The Thirty Years War, in fact by more than two centuries.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

The Hussites Linda mentioned somewhat pre-dated The Thirty Years War, in fact by more than two centuries.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

If it were to be reintroduced I would suggest The Shard as the venue.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago

Indeed, c.1618 (look it up) which precipitated the 30 years’ war, in which some 5 out of 25 million inhabitants of the Holy Roman Empire (sort of today’s Germany and surrounds) died. Statistics I’m sure that Putin would be proud of.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago

Yes it was; peformed by the Hussites in Prague. It may have gone on earlier, I suppose, but this was the first known event.

Chris W
Chris W
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Hi Sandor. Good to hear from you. The thing that worries me is that we have returned to the Iraq thing where all of our media was getting together and telling us about WOMD in the hands of the evil Saddam. The propaganda has won again. Everybody wants to fight until a missile falls on London.

I’ll tell you where no missile will fall – The USA.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

But a balloon might!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

I just love the balloon story. You couldn’t make it up.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

I just love the balloon story. You couldn’t make it up.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

But a balloon might!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

This is not quite defenestration but….

The latest insanity from America.

Apparently discussing the “path to peace” in Ukraine is hateful. After trying to ban a talk questioning Canada’s role in the NATO proxy war a Ukrainian student group smeared it.

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2023/02/13/amidst-hysteria-calling-for-peace-is-hate-more-war-is-peace/

Talking about peace is hate.
War is peace.
Is it dystopian yet?

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

I must admit that the enthusiasm for supporting Ukraine among progressives (who have, ironically, historically been a very anti-war group) in the US (the UK too, I gather; not sure about everywhere else) is very puzzling, as to what’s driving it. ‘Even a blind pig finds a nut once in a while’ has been my basic reaction.
What’s driving the Democrat party leaders in the US in that direction too is even more murky. Are they just following their base? Are they afraid that letting Russia gobble up Ukraine will trash their TDS-inducing ‘Trump colluded with Russia’ fable, with possible negative impact on their own grip on power, or something along those lines? Who knows.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

The neocons, you need to understand the neocons. then it will all make sense

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

Ukraine became an American protectorate after leaving the USSR. As Albright said, the money and resources lying around was very tempting .

Last edited 1 year ago by Anna Bramwell
D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

The neocons, you need to understand the neocons. then it will all make sense

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Noel Chiappa

Ukraine became an American protectorate after leaving the USSR. As Albright said, the money and resources lying around was very tempting .

Last edited 1 year ago by Anna Bramwell
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Wasn’t it the Czechs/Bohemians who ‘invented’ DEFENESTRATION?

Chris W
Chris W
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Hi Sandor. Good to hear from you. The thing that worries me is that we have returned to the Iraq thing where all of our media was getting together and telling us about WOMD in the hands of the evil Saddam. The propaganda has won again. Everybody wants to fight until a missile falls on London.

I’ll tell you where no missile will fall – The USA.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

This is not quite defenestration but….

The latest insanity from America.

Apparently discussing the “path to peace” in Ukraine is hateful. After trying to ban a talk questioning Canada’s role in the NATO proxy war a Ukrainian student group smeared it.

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2023/02/13/amidst-hysteria-calling-for-peace-is-hate-more-war-is-peace/

Talking about peace is hate.
War is peace.
Is it dystopian yet?

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

I must admit that the enthusiasm for supporting Ukraine among progressives (who have, ironically, historically been a very anti-war group) in the US (the UK too, I gather; not sure about everywhere else) is very puzzling, as to what’s driving it. ‘Even a blind pig finds a nut once in a while’ has been my basic reaction.
What’s driving the Democrat party leaders in the US in that direction too is even more murky. Are they just following their base? Are they afraid that letting Russia gobble up Ukraine will trash their TDS-inducing ‘Trump colluded with Russia’ fable, with possible negative impact on their own grip on power, or something along those lines? Who knows.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

Sending money and arms to Ukraine is the new ‘Masking’ – everyone was sheep talked into it by the weasels in MSM and social media – and so Citizens believed in their pathological ‘Mass Formation Psychosis‘; and displayed by their flag of submission/virtue – the Mask – it was the banner of their Purity, their Militancy – and any not masking were the enemy they turned on to rend…… ÂŁ500 fines for bicycling alone on the beach without a mask.

Till a wile ago… when everyone finally realized masking is Pointless virtue signaling – in fact has been part of the destruction of health and education, and oldies dying alone wile being ignored by people in space suits….

And like masking, this extremely insane creating of WWIII in Ukraine, is being kept on and on well past the point of reason, and now every sane person realizes it is a BAD idea – but the sheer inertia – and the sheer $Billions feeding into corruption – keeps this war from finding some resolution at the peace table.

Biden, Boris, and the Poles…. the last true believers after most have seen what a mistake it is…

But then remember the past… The Polish ‘Parliament’ were the ones who invented the political process of Defenestration’… haha – a mechanism of keeping all onside as if someone held out against the group think they would rise up and fling that person, that wrong thinker, out the window to their death.

This is Politics Biden, Boris, and the Poles see as totally excellent… and it has worked thus far… only now cracks are showing….the group are less inclined to jump to it and pitch the opponent out the window as there are more and more of them…starting to notice the citizens are not really still wearing the crazy mask…..not waving the yellow and blue flags……