Have things ever been so grim? Given the depressing reality of contemporary Britain — with the endless stories of sleaze and decay, decline and division — it is easy to draw that conclusion. Surely the NHS has never been this dire, the union this fragile or the country’s economic prospects this bleak? Surely we’ve never had a government, or a parliament, quite so devoid of ideas and ambition? For those, like me, who find themselves asking these questions more regularly than ever, there is a salve of sorts available: modern British history. If you think you’re living through the worst of times today, think again — it’s usually like this.
Over the past few months, researching a book on Britain’s long, troubled relationship with Europe, I have found a strange solace in the almost seasonal nature of our national life, with its endless wintery crises (usually involving the weakness of the pound and our ability to pay our way) that eventually give way to spring-like calms. Ben Pimlott’s biography of Harold Wilson, for example, is like a thunderstorm of charm and disorder, short fixes and political escapism. There was, of course, plenty of honour and achievement along the way, but as you turn the final page, you cannot help but wonder what it all amounted to. Here was a magical politician who dominated British politics for more than a decade, only to fade from national consciousness with alarming speed, his ghost barely even troubling the minds of his successors let alone haunting them. Today, Wilson is back in vogue as the man who finally ended 13 years of Tory rule, a favourite of Keir Starmer and some Sixties nostalgics, but this was a man almost broken by his own decline — and his country’s.
Wilson, though, is the rule in this regard, not the exception. A similar air of despondency hangs over almost all of Britain’s post war leaders up until 1979, each of whom fixated on the notion of British decline but were unable to escape its clutches.
And yet, here is the strange reality: despite it all, the country continued its slow, steady trudge over the fells, never veering much from the path it had been on before, the economy growing at much the same rate, only more slowly with each passing decade. Britain’s decline was largely relative, the living standards of people in Britain improving year on year.
Anyone scanning the record of British economic growth from 1949 to 2022 would be hard-pressed to spot any transformative moment. From our entry into the Common Market in 1973 to the election of Margaret Thatcher in 1979, or, indeed, the referendum to leave the EU in 2016, we continued plodding along largely as before, however transformative we convinced ourselves one set of leaders or another was at the time. To the casual observer, it is the recessions which catch the eye more than the booms, most of which blew in from abroad, largely beyond the control of our leaders, the pandemic just the latest example. For Britain, the truth is that our crises are never quite as important as we imagine — and nor are our leaders.
To illustrate the point, here’s a challenge: when was the last time a British government or prime minister pro-actively achieved something of lasting importance, addressing some great strategic threat before it became an existential challenge? The disasters are far easier to list, but not the lasting achievements. Did any of Gordon Brown, David Cameron, Theresa May, Boris Johnson or Liz Truss leave us with any lasting monument to progress? It is hard to think of one. They largely managed crises — or, more often, caused them.
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SubscribeThe biggest single transformation in Britain, but particularly England, since World War 2 is the enormous change in our population make up due to high and completely unprecedented levels of immigration. (It is completely untrue that Britain has ‘always’ been a land of immigration). Extraordinarily, London’s population is 40% foreign born, and white British make up only just over a third of the population.
I don’t rail about this, just find it quite amazing that out of some sort of misplaced politeness that commentators barely mention it. Of course this has created huge changes in the country, whether for good and ill and will continue to do so.
Even as an immigrant, I would tend to agree, and I am aghast to see so much of London essentially cleansed of its original, wonderful culture – it’s not just the extent of immigration but also the fact that large groups of immigrants have been allowed to basically form their own isolated enclaves instead of assimilation with the host culture.
But I would suggest that immigration doesn’t fully explain the story. Britain and the West faces an existential challenge due to decreasing economic clout and share of global population, and there just isn’t any appreciation of the efforts and changes in mindset required to cope. Despite what one might feel about the empire etc, I still think British culture is amazing and I would fear that “calamitous, irreversible decline” is exactly the risk here.
Not just economically but culturally. The uniquely irreverent nature of the British people and their humour, for instance, is under threat. Or for instance gay marriage (a right that few gay people actually opt for, once granted) – so much mental energy expended on this, but not much concern about the sheer number of British children born out of wedlock and not having a father’s presence.
“Spare the rod, spoil the child”.
I wonder if the low-level self-deprication (also part of British humor) actually leads British people to not appreciate themselves and their culture as much as they should. I had a British boyfriend for a decade and have met British people while traveling in various parts of the world – I agree, British people are friendly, funny, polite and all around representative of a wonderful culture.
Yes, Samir. Instead of the dreamed of multicultural society, we have a multiplicity of monocultures.
Disagree. I heard multiculturalism described as a ‘Salad Bowl’ – all mixed pieces of salad in together but each bit distinctly different. That though doesn’t reflect reality. We’ve always been more of a ‘Melting Pot’. Arbitrary lines of race and religion get blurred over time. We’re a Melting Pot nation. And one of the outputs of this Melting Pot is in Number 10
Of course there are some inward looking communities that resist this, but over time it’s a real struggle for them. We could do a bit more to limit this but our culture is much stronger than we sometimes think, at least the very best bits. Which is why they get adopted.
Lol.
One of the outputs of the globalist cabal is “in number 10”, having been installed there by no one in this country. Same for number 11.
Fixed it for you.
Braverman?
Braverman?
One world, one love, no borders… metaphorical or otherwise.
Lol.
One of the outputs of the globalist cabal is “in number 10”, having been installed there by no one in this country. Same for number 11.
Fixed it for you.
One world, one love, no borders… metaphorical or otherwise.
I thought you were American?
And a civil war to look forward to. Especially when resources grow thin.
But didn’t it take both sides to make that happen? The old English racism you yearn for helped to cause the alienation so many ethic monocultures.. if it hadn’t been so I’m sure multiculturalism would have flourished.
..
Old English racism is in fact something you yearn for as a woke racist.
Speak for yourself.. or at least the real Woke racists.. nothing to do with me. I’m one of those people who knows the correct term is Awakened.. only illiterates are Woke.
Speak for yourself.. or at least the real Woke racists.. nothing to do with me. I’m one of those people who knows the correct term is Awakened.. only illiterates are Woke.
..
Old English racism is in fact something you yearn for as a woke racist.
Disagree. I heard multiculturalism described as a ‘Salad Bowl’ – all mixed pieces of salad in together but each bit distinctly different. That though doesn’t reflect reality. We’ve always been more of a ‘Melting Pot’. Arbitrary lines of race and religion get blurred over time. We’re a Melting Pot nation. And one of the outputs of this Melting Pot is in Number 10
Of course there are some inward looking communities that resist this, but over time it’s a real struggle for them. We could do a bit more to limit this but our culture is much stronger than we sometimes think, at least the very best bits. Which is why they get adopted.
I thought you were American?
And a civil war to look forward to. Especially when resources grow thin.
But didn’t it take both sides to make that happen? The old English racism you yearn for helped to cause the alienation so many ethic monocultures.. if it hadn’t been so I’m sure multiculturalism would have flourished.
Hope this is ok SI but aren’t you possibly an example that immigration isn’t some form of stasis? Folks, largely, assimilate and in time adopt much more of the prevalent culture, perhaps bringing something to it at the same time that’s beneficial. We inter-marry and really the big growing demographic is those with a mixed background.
I always sense who worry about immigration and British values lack confidence in those values. But look at who’s PM, Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary etc. Maybe not everyone’s favourite politicians but suggestive a v powerful cultural undercurrent is solid whilst also being progressive.
Immigration is not the (main) issue; at least it hasn’t been to date.
The “powerful cultural undercurrent” you reference has all but disappeared in the face of the full-on woke assault of the culture warriors.
Too many on here – wilfully it seems – have their heads in the sand. Their children will pay.
Woke’s a meaningless term IMO as it can mean all and nothing. It’s emperor’s got no clothes half the time type stuff. Quite frankly there are more important things to be focusing on than trans issue or suchlike.
You imply there is a culture that is under attack. How do you define that culture in the first place? I suspect if you can. and let’s assume it’s not ridiculous racially based nonsense, I’ll be able to reassure you it’s in far better shape than you give it credit. Our culture has spread round the world and as famously said the arc is a bit bumpy but strong.
I don’t engage with arrogant race-baiting fools.
No idea why you got all those downvotes. I think your comment was eminently reasonable.
No idea why you got all those downvotes. I think your comment was eminently reasonable.
Being anti-woke does not equate to being racist. The level to which this retrograde morality has been infused into almost all our institutions cannot be understated. It is carried forward into most organizations through DEI policies that, ironically enough, merely enforce conformity of thought and silence in the face of corporate dogma, rather than increase actual diversity.
Unfortunately, its reach hasn’t been contained to just workplaces and schools. It is manifesting itself in other cultural vehicles such as hobbies and entertainment. Watching a modern series or film these days is like viewing a morality play where you already know who the good guys and bad guys are going to be based on their sex and color of their skin; even book publishers now require sensitivity readers just in case someone might take offense to their content.
And the really stupid thing is, those who protest against this ideology are labeled racist or bigoted by those who perceive differences of opinion as threats to their diversity.
Can you give me a few examples? Your doing a bit what I suggested – using the Woke phrase in catch all unspecific way. It can come across as ‘woe as me’ to be honest but let me see what I can suggest if you give some real examples.
Men can be women simply by coercing others to believe it to be so (Queer Theory).
The ascribing of unequal outcomes between demographic groups to a shadowy Patriarchy (Feminist Theory).
Ascribing negative qualities to others based on intersections of perceived oppression (Race Theory).
Using existing intellectual property to create a tv series using woke morality tropes then denouncing the fan base as bigots when they write negative reviews (Amazon’s Wheel of Time and Rings of Power).
Employing people based on external characteristics rather than skill, merit, or qualifications (Diversity hiring).
Stranding minority students with thousands of dollars of debt for a degree which they were unable to complete (Affirmative Action).
Unequal application of the law based on political affiliation such as the difference in treatment between BLM and January 6 protesters even though the former did far more damage (Social Justice).
Automatically believing an accuser over investigating facts (#MeToo).
Revising history to fit a contemporary ideology (1619 Project).
Political commissars earning six figure salaries in order to ensure that students and professors conform to orthodoxy (DEI officers).
Scrapping knowledge-based curricula for Critical Theory-based curricula (Decolonization of the Curriculum).
Hiring professors based on loyalty oaths (Diversity Statements). Firing / threatening people who dissent from current orthodoxy (Cancel culture).
To name a few.
What we’re seeing here are the laying of foundations for a totalitarian system, but one that uses and then turns against whatever ‘vulnerable’ group is at hand (women, LGBQT, minorities etc.) in order to disguise itself as a civil rights movement. That’s the best way I can describe it.
edited for formatting.
At least a list, so thanks.
Now insufficient room here to go through each. Some are certainly vaguer than others, and some are also a little ‘woe is me’ and contestable as to whether that actually is the case.
On history – there is never one version. Where I’d be anti woke is if the re-writing removed rather than added layers. I don’t think it does that in general, and sometimes the prior history hasn’t really been the full story but rather a form of comfortable propaganda. A correction was inevitable.
I also think in most instances things will self correct. There was blinkin student nonsense in my day and you and others grow out of it. Universities need to ‘grow a pair’ though and say you can have your ‘safe place’ but that does not include the lecture theatre. There are a number of Institutions now doing this and it’ll ripple.
I agree there can be a 21st century tendency towards victimhood. White victim-hood being one too. It’s about the power of differentiation. between tripe and such that has some validity. Broad brush dismissal is lazy.
I suppose my point being I’ve much more confidence our culture responds, absorbs, trims, rebalances overtime. No doubt a theme we’ll pick up in discourse after other Articles too.
I’ve wanted to hear from the other side in these comment sections for awhile, so thanks for entering the debate with a well reasoned viewpoint. How do you define the culture in the first place is an excellent point.
I do think in a debating chamber Julian Farrows would win this particular exchange.. He has provided a reasonable list of phenomena we all recognise. A better response would have been a more detailed refutation of each point. I fear you’ve gone for broad brush dismissal, “which is lazy.”
I think you may be right that the threat of wokism is exaggerated but it certainly can’t be dismissed as blinking student nonsense.
I’ve wanted to hear from the other side in these comment sections for awhile, so thanks for entering the debate with a well reasoned viewpoint. How do you define the culture in the first place is an excellent point.
I do think in a debating chamber Julian Farrows would win this particular exchange.. He has provided a reasonable list of phenomena we all recognise. A better response would have been a more detailed refutation of each point. I fear you’ve gone for broad brush dismissal, “which is lazy.”
I think you may be right that the threat of wokism is exaggerated but it certainly can’t be dismissed as blinking student nonsense.
At least a list, so thanks.
Now insufficient room here to go through each. Some are certainly vaguer than others, and some are also a little ‘woe is me’ and contestable as to whether that actually is the case.
On history – there is never one version. Where I’d be anti woke is if the re-writing removed rather than added layers. I don’t think it does that in general, and sometimes the prior history hasn’t really been the full story but rather a form of comfortable propaganda. A correction was inevitable.
I also think in most instances things will self correct. There was blinkin student nonsense in my day and you and others grow out of it. Universities need to ‘grow a pair’ though and say you can have your ‘safe place’ but that does not include the lecture theatre. There are a number of Institutions now doing this and it’ll ripple.
I agree there can be a 21st century tendency towards victimhood. White victim-hood being one too. It’s about the power of differentiation. between tripe and such that has some validity. Broad brush dismissal is lazy.
I suppose my point being I’ve much more confidence our culture responds, absorbs, trims, rebalances overtime. No doubt a theme we’ll pick up in discourse after other Articles too.
Men can be women simply by coercing others to believe it to be so (Queer Theory).
The ascribing of unequal outcomes between demographic groups to a shadowy Patriarchy (Feminist Theory).
Ascribing negative qualities to others based on intersections of perceived oppression (Race Theory).
Using existing intellectual property to create a tv series using woke morality tropes then denouncing the fan base as bigots when they write negative reviews (Amazon’s Wheel of Time and Rings of Power).
Employing people based on external characteristics rather than skill, merit, or qualifications (Diversity hiring).
Stranding minority students with thousands of dollars of debt for a degree which they were unable to complete (Affirmative Action).
Unequal application of the law based on political affiliation such as the difference in treatment between BLM and January 6 protesters even though the former did far more damage (Social Justice).
Automatically believing an accuser over investigating facts (#MeToo).
Revising history to fit a contemporary ideology (1619 Project).
Political commissars earning six figure salaries in order to ensure that students and professors conform to orthodoxy (DEI officers).
Scrapping knowledge-based curricula for Critical Theory-based curricula (Decolonization of the Curriculum).
Hiring professors based on loyalty oaths (Diversity Statements). Firing / threatening people who dissent from current orthodoxy (Cancel culture).
To name a few.
What we’re seeing here are the laying of foundations for a totalitarian system, but one that uses and then turns against whatever ‘vulnerable’ group is at hand (women, LGBQT, minorities etc.) in order to disguise itself as a civil rights movement. That’s the best way I can describe it.
edited for formatting.
“Being anti-woke does not equate to being racist.”
I hope you won’t mind my suggesting that the above needs to be put more strongly. Being anti-woke equates to not being racist (not “anti-racist”, because that would be racist, of course).
Apart from the above minor solecism, the rest of your comment is excellent.
Can you give me a few examples? Your doing a bit what I suggested – using the Woke phrase in catch all unspecific way. It can come across as ‘woe as me’ to be honest but let me see what I can suggest if you give some real examples.
“Being anti-woke does not equate to being racist.”
I hope you won’t mind my suggesting that the above needs to be put more strongly. Being anti-woke equates to not being racist (not “anti-racist”, because that would be racist, of course).
Apart from the above minor solecism, the rest of your comment is excellent.
I live in Wales and can barely speak my mother tongue (albeit due to a heavy hand from those dastardly Sasenach across the river Severn!) and even my surname is an Anglicisation of apHywel but thems the breaks and no use crying over spilt milk. But when my Gambian friend was bemoaning English colonialism of his country I did reply “what do you think it’s been like for us here in Wales, we live *next door* to the f@@@ers” … lol… So when a peoples have been all over this planet telling everyone how fantastic and superior they are for generations, one shouldn’t be surprised that people believe them and want to come here and live it for themselves. I think that’s fair enough and English ‘natives’ are in no position to complain… it’s not like the country as a whole never benefited from the exploitation…
I expect that there are plenty of “Young England” political radicals, it’s just that they don’t get a very loud voice… mainly because ‘Westminster’ has a vested interest in not giving oxygen to anyone who considers their mode of capitalist democracy wildly obsolete… they ALL like their jobs and their power base too much… considering that that top down government form of democracy has had since Ancient Greece and before to perfect its system and it’s still pretty shitty… I mean, c’mon… What did Einstein say about the definition of insanity again?
As for Harold Wilson? Remember the Aberfan disaster? People from all over the planet donated millions to help the families and he took it to spend on cleaning up the mess made by the mines instead. It was only given back not that long ago… without interest, of course… such a shining example of a “Young England radicals” POLITICIAN… to hell with the lot of them, of every stripe, and the belief system they sailed in on. They’re not the only game in town, although they’d have you believe otherwise.
I hope you don’t mind me writing on the article as a reply to you J Watson, but I don’t have a paid subscription so can only comment as a response and you seemed the kindest!
Be fair, though. The English have to live with the Scots and Welsh as neighbours.. .
Be fair, though. The English have to live with the Scots and Welsh as neighbours.. .
I define woke as the authoritarian pseudo-progressive usurpation of authority, and culture as the exercise of spare brain capacity.
I don’t engage with arrogant race-baiting fools.
Being anti-woke does not equate to being racist. The level to which this retrograde morality has been infused into almost all our institutions cannot be understated. It is carried forward into most organizations through DEI policies that, ironically enough, merely enforce conformity of thought and silence in the face of corporate dogma, rather than increase actual diversity.
Unfortunately, its reach hasn’t been contained to just workplaces and schools. It is manifesting itself in other cultural vehicles such as hobbies and entertainment. Watching a modern series or film these days is like viewing a morality play where you already know who the good guys and bad guys are going to be based on their sex and color of their skin; even book publishers now require sensitivity readers just in case someone might take offense to their content.
And the really stupid thing is, those who protest against this ideology are labeled racist or bigoted by those who perceive differences of opinion as threats to their diversity.
I live in Wales and can barely speak my mother tongue (albeit due to a heavy hand from those dastardly Sasenach across the river Severn!) and even my surname is an Anglicisation of apHywel but thems the breaks and no use crying over spilt milk. But when my Gambian friend was bemoaning English colonialism of his country I did reply “what do you think it’s been like for us here in Wales, we live *next door* to the f@@@ers” … lol… So when a peoples have been all over this planet telling everyone how fantastic and superior they are for generations, one shouldn’t be surprised that people believe them and want to come here and live it for themselves. I think that’s fair enough and English ‘natives’ are in no position to complain… it’s not like the country as a whole never benefited from the exploitation…
I expect that there are plenty of “Young England” political radicals, it’s just that they don’t get a very loud voice… mainly because ‘Westminster’ has a vested interest in not giving oxygen to anyone who considers their mode of capitalist democracy wildly obsolete… they ALL like their jobs and their power base too much… considering that that top down government form of democracy has had since Ancient Greece and before to perfect its system and it’s still pretty shitty… I mean, c’mon… What did Einstein say about the definition of insanity again?
As for Harold Wilson? Remember the Aberfan disaster? People from all over the planet donated millions to help the families and he took it to spend on cleaning up the mess made by the mines instead. It was only given back not that long ago… without interest, of course… such a shining example of a “Young England radicals” POLITICIAN… to hell with the lot of them, of every stripe, and the belief system they sailed in on. They’re not the only game in town, although they’d have you believe otherwise.
I hope you don’t mind me writing on the article as a reply to you J Watson, but I don’t have a paid subscription so can only comment as a response and you seemed the kindest!
I define woke as the authoritarian pseudo-progressive usurpation of authority, and culture as the exercise of spare brain capacity.
Woke’s a meaningless term IMO as it can mean all and nothing. It’s emperor’s got no clothes half the time type stuff. Quite frankly there are more important things to be focusing on than trans issue or suchlike.
You imply there is a culture that is under attack. How do you define that culture in the first place? I suspect if you can. and let’s assume it’s not ridiculous racially based nonsense, I’ll be able to reassure you it’s in far better shape than you give it credit. Our culture has spread round the world and as famously said the arc is a bit bumpy but strong.
“I always sense who worry about immigration and British values lack confidence in those values.”
I worry about continuous mass immigration because it’s (i) turning the UK’s housing crisis into an emergency; (ii) overwhelming public services; (iii) exerting downward pressure on C2DE wages.
And no, I’m not against immigration per se. The UK will always need immigrants, but not in these numbers. I am also myself an immigrant and the son of a refugee.
Immigration is not the (main) issue; at least it hasn’t been to date.
The “powerful cultural undercurrent” you reference has all but disappeared in the face of the full-on woke assault of the culture warriors.
Too many on here – wilfully it seems – have their heads in the sand. Their children will pay.
“I always sense who worry about immigration and British values lack confidence in those values.”
I worry about continuous mass immigration because it’s (i) turning the UK’s housing crisis into an emergency; (ii) overwhelming public services; (iii) exerting downward pressure on C2DE wages.
And no, I’m not against immigration per se. The UK will always need immigrants, but not in these numbers. I am also myself an immigrant and the son of a refugee.
, I would tend to agree, and I am aghast to see so much of London essentially cleansed of its original, wonderful culture –
Are you. You come across as about 12. Are you sure you’ve been around for long enough?
London has always been a melting pot where different cultures rub along nicely, it’s part of what makes it a great city.
‘Or for instance gay marriage (a right that few gay people actually opt for, once granted) – so much mental energy expended on this, but not much concern about the sheer number of British children born out of wedlock and not having a father’s presence.’
Just wtf. There’s so much wrong with your comment. What are you saying british people should be forcing people into ‘wedlock’ before they have children?
“London has always been a melting pot where different cultures rub along nicely.”
London has gone from 80% white British to less than 40% white British in the last 40 years. Anyone who chooses to obscure this huge, unprecedented change by saying “it’s always been a melting pot” is either deluded or dishonest.
Quite
Oooooook.
If London is like that, it’s like it. We have to try and deal with what we have. All this ‘integration’ bollax is getting very American style social engineering. We’ve got Samir up top ‘as an immigrant’ with the audacity to say he wishes London were like the old days, basically deriding the cultural diversity his own people have bought with them. Disgusting.
This is the kind of talk that dragged the brexit debate into the sewer.
Your facts are great but London has always had a higher migrant population than the rest of the country, so basically yes it has always been a melting pot and those stats are unique to London. EVERY other region its over 70%, up to 90% in other areas.
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/national-and-regional-populations/regional-ethnic-diversity/latest#:~:text=2021%20Census%20data%20for%20England,17.0%25%20with%20white%20ethnic%20minorities
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/
Quite
Oooooook.
If London is like that, it’s like it. We have to try and deal with what we have. All this ‘integration’ bollax is getting very American style social engineering. We’ve got Samir up top ‘as an immigrant’ with the audacity to say he wishes London were like the old days, basically deriding the cultural diversity his own people have bought with them. Disgusting.
This is the kind of talk that dragged the brexit debate into the sewer.
Your facts are great but London has always had a higher migrant population than the rest of the country, so basically yes it has always been a melting pot and those stats are unique to London. EVERY other region its over 70%, up to 90% in other areas.
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/national-and-regional-populations/regional-ethnic-diversity/latest#:~:text=2021%20Census%20data%20for%20England,17.0%25%20with%20white%20ethnic%20minorities
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/
Steady on old chap.
Awaiting approval on my expletives.
Awaiting approval on my expletives.
“London has always been a melting pot where different cultures rub along nicely”
This is a myth. Before 1945 London was 95% white English. Most of the other 5% was Irish with the odd Latvian or Pole thrown in for good measure.
You show your cards there RW. You link it all to colour.
In fact Aliens Act in 05 and 20 were introduced because of considerable east European immigration – persecution and pogroms. Then again in the 30s from Spain and Germany. And vast majority settled in London. You will have heard about the Battle of Cable street I’m sure.
The volume of immigration was less for sure, in part because the world was less interconnected and travel more difficult.
Of course in 850AD London was largely Viking but hey things move on.
Thanks Watson.
Thanks Watson.
So what are you suggesting? You got a source for that?
You show your cards there RW. You link it all to colour.
In fact Aliens Act in 05 and 20 were introduced because of considerable east European immigration – persecution and pogroms. Then again in the 30s from Spain and Germany. And vast majority settled in London. You will have heard about the Battle of Cable street I’m sure.
The volume of immigration was less for sure, in part because the world was less interconnected and travel more difficult.
Of course in 850AD London was largely Viking but hey things move on.
So what are you suggesting? You got a source for that?
You’re the one coming across as about 12, woke boy.
That makes a change from ‘woke scum’ your usual go to.
That makes a change from ‘woke scum’ your usual go to.
“London has always been a melting pot where different cultures rub along nicely.”
London has gone from 80% white British to less than 40% white British in the last 40 years. Anyone who chooses to obscure this huge, unprecedented change by saying “it’s always been a melting pot” is either deluded or dishonest.
Steady on old chap.
“London has always been a melting pot where different cultures rub along nicely”
This is a myth. Before 1945 London was 95% white English. Most of the other 5% was Irish with the odd Latvian or Pole thrown in for good measure.
You’re the one coming across as about 12, woke boy.
Your reply is popular because you confess to being an immigrant but you love ‘British culture’. The article is more about economic growth than anything else.
I do not know what ‘growth’ means. If we manufactured t-shirts, shoes and engineering parts, we could claim that growth was important – but other people are better than us now; they have cheap labour and don’t care about their living environment. So growth, in the old sense, is irrelevant. We need to earn money and our history and culture gives us bragging rights with tourism.
So you are correct. Our culture is the important thing if only to earn money. To be ashamed of our culture is giving away this resource as well. I would suggest that any Prime Minister who keeps the UK together and stable, who encourages the appreciation of Shakespeare, who is not ashamed of our royals, who is proud of our seafaring history, who sees our ex-colonies as overall positive achievements…..will help with our growth.
Personally, I would blame this decline on British society’s staggering ignorance (the levels of illiteracy in this country are among the highest in Europe) rather than immigrants. Often (but not always) immigrants add cultural depth to our society. Lastly, it’s down to the Brits to get newcomers to adopt the key tenets of their culture such as tolerance, respect for women etc.
‘Comprehensive Education’! Britain at its very best!
‘Comprehensive Education’! Britain at its very best!
When making Bechamel sauce one must add the flour to the butter very slowly or you end up with a big glob of gunge that is no use to anybody.
Also an immigrant, I must comment on your statement, “large groups of immigrants have been allowed to basically form their own isolated enclaves”.
This has always happened everywhere and is perfectly natural and understandable. In my native US, waves of immigrants successively took over neighbourhoods of New York City and elsewhere. People naturally gravitate to their own sort who have customs, skin colour, religion and language in common. As a young newspaper reporter in central Massachusetts in the late 1950’s I covered a town that was largely French Canadian, a nearby old mill town was largely Finnish-speaking. This actually provides a feeling of comfort and stability to society.
Also it’s not a matter of being “allowed” for form enclaves. It’s not up to government or anyone else to “allow” or to prohibit this from happening. We are free to settle wherever we want to – if we can afford it – and that’s something to be applauded. It’s called freedom.
I take your point but it isn’t that simple is it? Similarly ethnic communities form also for at least four other reasons.
1. Members of the ethnic minority may be fearful of living in a white / different community due to racist attacks / remarks?
2. Existing communities may make it clear they are unhappy with accepting others into their community for fear of reducing house prices or even being displaced.
3. Indeed, existing (white?) communities may take fright when they perceive their community being “overrun” by a minority and so rush to sell up before prices drop further?
4. Ethnic communities may likewise make it clear that they see their new communities as being not for others.
In all cases fear, xenophobia and racism (both ways) seem to hold sway over the values of welcoming the stranger and helping them to settle in, ie assimilate, despising difference instead of celebrating it – all caused through ignorance and bigotry and the horrible notion of exceptionalism. We are all the same species fgs! ..all brothers and sisters. Love is the answer..
Mr Mahony I was starting to take you a bit more seriously, I appreciate your fish and chips comment but I think you’ve gone far too far there.
Mr Mahony I was starting to take you a bit more seriously, I appreciate your fish and chips comment but I think you’ve gone far too far there.
I take your point but it isn’t that simple is it? Similarly ethnic communities form also for at least four other reasons.
1. Members of the ethnic minority may be fearful of living in a white / different community due to racist attacks / remarks?
2. Existing communities may make it clear they are unhappy with accepting others into their community for fear of reducing house prices or even being displaced.
3. Indeed, existing (white?) communities may take fright when they perceive their community being “overrun” by a minority and so rush to sell up before prices drop further?
4. Ethnic communities may likewise make it clear that they see their new communities as being not for others.
In all cases fear, xenophobia and racism (both ways) seem to hold sway over the values of welcoming the stranger and helping them to settle in, ie assimilate, despising difference instead of celebrating it – all caused through ignorance and bigotry and the horrible notion of exceptionalism. We are all the same species fgs! ..all brothers and sisters. Love is the answer..
In my opinion London’s culture is now far better than it ever was when it had nothing but fish and chips and the occasional street party. And don’t forget all your wonderful Irish pubs!
I agree. Jellied eels are very old school london….. No one wants them back.
.
I seem to remember pickled eggs as well. Yes, definitely better off without those too!
.
I seem to remember pickled eggs as well. Yes, definitely better off without those too!
I agree. Jellied eels are very old school london….. No one wants them back.
“Spare the rod, spoil the child”.
I wonder if the low-level self-deprication (also part of British humor) actually leads British people to not appreciate themselves and their culture as much as they should. I had a British boyfriend for a decade and have met British people while traveling in various parts of the world – I agree, British people are friendly, funny, polite and all around representative of a wonderful culture.
Yes, Samir. Instead of the dreamed of multicultural society, we have a multiplicity of monocultures.
Hope this is ok SI but aren’t you possibly an example that immigration isn’t some form of stasis? Folks, largely, assimilate and in time adopt much more of the prevalent culture, perhaps bringing something to it at the same time that’s beneficial. We inter-marry and really the big growing demographic is those with a mixed background.
I always sense who worry about immigration and British values lack confidence in those values. But look at who’s PM, Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary etc. Maybe not everyone’s favourite politicians but suggestive a v powerful cultural undercurrent is solid whilst also being progressive.
, I would tend to agree, and I am aghast to see so much of London essentially cleansed of its original, wonderful culture –
Are you. You come across as about 12. Are you sure you’ve been around for long enough?
London has always been a melting pot where different cultures rub along nicely, it’s part of what makes it a great city.
‘Or for instance gay marriage (a right that few gay people actually opt for, once granted) – so much mental energy expended on this, but not much concern about the sheer number of British children born out of wedlock and not having a father’s presence.’
Just wtf. There’s so much wrong with your comment. What are you saying british people should be forcing people into ‘wedlock’ before they have children?
Your reply is popular because you confess to being an immigrant but you love ‘British culture’. The article is more about economic growth than anything else.
I do not know what ‘growth’ means. If we manufactured t-shirts, shoes and engineering parts, we could claim that growth was important – but other people are better than us now; they have cheap labour and don’t care about their living environment. So growth, in the old sense, is irrelevant. We need to earn money and our history and culture gives us bragging rights with tourism.
So you are correct. Our culture is the important thing if only to earn money. To be ashamed of our culture is giving away this resource as well. I would suggest that any Prime Minister who keeps the UK together and stable, who encourages the appreciation of Shakespeare, who is not ashamed of our royals, who is proud of our seafaring history, who sees our ex-colonies as overall positive achievements…..will help with our growth.
Personally, I would blame this decline on British society’s staggering ignorance (the levels of illiteracy in this country are among the highest in Europe) rather than immigrants. Often (but not always) immigrants add cultural depth to our society. Lastly, it’s down to the Brits to get newcomers to adopt the key tenets of their culture such as tolerance, respect for women etc.
When making Bechamel sauce one must add the flour to the butter very slowly or you end up with a big glob of gunge that is no use to anybody.
Also an immigrant, I must comment on your statement, “large groups of immigrants have been allowed to basically form their own isolated enclaves”.
This has always happened everywhere and is perfectly natural and understandable. In my native US, waves of immigrants successively took over neighbourhoods of New York City and elsewhere. People naturally gravitate to their own sort who have customs, skin colour, religion and language in common. As a young newspaper reporter in central Massachusetts in the late 1950’s I covered a town that was largely French Canadian, a nearby old mill town was largely Finnish-speaking. This actually provides a feeling of comfort and stability to society.
Also it’s not a matter of being “allowed” for form enclaves. It’s not up to government or anyone else to “allow” or to prohibit this from happening. We are free to settle wherever we want to – if we can afford it – and that’s something to be applauded. It’s called freedom.
In my opinion London’s culture is now far better than it ever was when it had nothing but fish and chips and the occasional street party. And don’t forget all your wonderful Irish pubs!
A very important point. And I agree that it had brought many benefits as well as some costs and problems. What is so disappointing is that we are making so little effort to have an immigration and integration policy that maximises the benefits and minimises the costs.
I agree Peter.
Such a policy should:
1.limit overall annual immigrant numbers to something manageable in terms of house building, public service and infrastructure (say 100k per year – it could even be tapered over a parliament)
2.ensure that all immigrants come through official channels with the right checks
3.focus our HE/FE training on areas where we are over-reliant on imported labour and incentivise young people to take those paths
4.give incentives to businesses to automate away low-value manual tasks which is currently done by foreign workers
5.promote integration of immigrants and the fostering of a shared identity based on Britain’s history, traditions and culture
This would be electoral dynamite and would actually help alleviate a number of difficult problems (unlike so many policies).
It should be bread-and-butter to the Tories but if they cannot manage it, maybe Starmer will (almost like a Clause 4 moment but taking on Labour’s Open Borders/woke fringes).
All good, sensible, and obvious, but none of the politicians seem to grasp it.
Excellent. Not every day I can agree with everything you say !
Thanks Peter. I’m not sure I even agree with everything I say 🙂
Thanks Peter. I’m not sure I even agree with everything I say 🙂
Sounds good but a few clarifications:
1. Immigrants also work in housebuilding and services. Indeed disproportionately so. Being young, fit and keen they use far fewer services than the general population.
2. The official channels are effectively cut off so illegal immigration is the only viable option.
3. Indigenous people are increasingly too lazy, too posh, too weak, too sick or simply not botheted to work in low paid jobs. Those with HE qualifications are fleeing the NHS and other UK employers because of terrible working conditions thanks to Tory cuts.
4. Automated fruit picking and animal slaughtering is difficult and expensive and is probably already nearly their practicable limit. Automated nursing, caring, cooking and hospitality is well nigh impossible and/or unacceptable to the customers.
5. Assimilation is desirable of course though I’d drop the History bit if I were you as the immigrants’ (grand)parents may well have suffered atrocities under colonialism!
To achieve integration you will need to respect and welcome immigrants and to celibate not scorn difference; and your yobos will need to lose their xenophobia, bigotry and racism.
3. Indigenous people are increasingly too lazy, too posh, too weak, too sick or simply not botheted to work in low paid jobs
Thanks, I’ve actually worked in a warehouse. Did a late Saturday night shift when my kid was a baby, fit round my partner. There are as many working class british people in these places as there are immigrants. So matt up top if you could not automate away their jobs that would be great. I made friends with Albanians, Ethiopians, Eastern Europeans, my neighbours are Romanian. And lovely. So that bigotry and racism Mr Mahony by and large is not typical of working class british people. If it was, these workplaces would be war zones, they are not. Thank you.
3. Indigenous people are increasingly too lazy, too posh, too weak, too sick or simply not botheted to work in low paid jobs
Thanks, I’ve actually worked in a warehouse. Did a late Saturday night shift when my kid was a baby, fit round my partner. There are as many working class british people in these places as there are immigrants. So matt up top if you could not automate away their jobs that would be great. I made friends with Albanians, Ethiopians, Eastern Europeans, my neighbours are Romanian. And lovely. So that bigotry and racism Mr Mahony by and large is not typical of working class british people. If it was, these workplaces would be war zones, they are not. Thank you.
All good, sensible, and obvious, but none of the politicians seem to grasp it.
Excellent. Not every day I can agree with everything you say !
Sounds good but a few clarifications:
1. Immigrants also work in housebuilding and services. Indeed disproportionately so. Being young, fit and keen they use far fewer services than the general population.
2. The official channels are effectively cut off so illegal immigration is the only viable option.
3. Indigenous people are increasingly too lazy, too posh, too weak, too sick or simply not botheted to work in low paid jobs. Those with HE qualifications are fleeing the NHS and other UK employers because of terrible working conditions thanks to Tory cuts.
4. Automated fruit picking and animal slaughtering is difficult and expensive and is probably already nearly their practicable limit. Automated nursing, caring, cooking and hospitality is well nigh impossible and/or unacceptable to the customers.
5. Assimilation is desirable of course though I’d drop the History bit if I were you as the immigrants’ (grand)parents may well have suffered atrocities under colonialism!
To achieve integration you will need to respect and welcome immigrants and to celibate not scorn difference; and your yobos will need to lose their xenophobia, bigotry and racism.
I agree Peter.
Such a policy should:
1.limit overall annual immigrant numbers to something manageable in terms of house building, public service and infrastructure (say 100k per year – it could even be tapered over a parliament)
2.ensure that all immigrants come through official channels with the right checks
3.focus our HE/FE training on areas where we are over-reliant on imported labour and incentivise young people to take those paths
4.give incentives to businesses to automate away low-value manual tasks which is currently done by foreign workers
5.promote integration of immigrants and the fostering of a shared identity based on Britain’s history, traditions and culture
This would be electoral dynamite and would actually help alleviate a number of difficult problems (unlike so many policies).
It should be bread-and-butter to the Tories but if they cannot manage it, maybe Starmer will (almost like a Clause 4 moment but taking on Labour’s Open Borders/woke fringes).
I must disagree.
In my particular rural county things are much as they were in 1945. A bit of agricultural modernisation, some decrease in bird numbers, more cars and fewer trains, but otherwise much the same. Certainly no influx of ‘strangers’.
Surely London has always been a city apart, and a city of mass immigration?
You’re correct about London, it’s been different from the rest of England (and the UK) for a very long time. Even in the time of King Alfred the number of foreign born people living there was remarked upon – people from Scandinavia, Francia, Rome – it was a centre of trade, a place for employment, and, although it is now a financial centre, this has not changed much.
Unfortunately London’s influential ‘industries’ (finance, media, TV, politics, advertising) seem to think London’s demographic reflects the country as a whole. A example being having to sit through endless TV ads that imply the whole country is full of black, Asian, or mixed race families. Even (unaskedfor) fashion/banking/holiday brochures that pop through the door make me wonder if I’m really living in a country village with a very different demographic.
Why does it matter what the folks in the adverts look like? It’s a product being advertised not the person.
Which begs the question of why – suddenly – black, mixed race and the occasional south east Asian families are constantly appearing.
You obviously notice these things more RS and get wound up by them. Many more are not in anyway fazed. And one assumes the profit maximisation of the advertisers means they are merely reflecting back to us what we increasingly look like and thus who they need to sell to.
You obviously notice these things more RS and get wound up by them. Many more are not in anyway fazed. And one assumes the profit maximisation of the advertisers means they are merely reflecting back to us what we increasingly look like and thus who they need to sell to.
Dream on.
What’s being advertised is a Neo-Marxist globalist ideology.
One has to see the funny side here JS. I am assuming you are satirist. Marxists have taken over the advertising and marketing industry is a new one for sure. You’ve travelled along way in your understanding of Marxist ideology.
But maybe it’s just a lack of descriptive powers, which is often the problem with anti-wokers (is it wokers or wokiests? anyway another day). They’ve just run out of command of the language and need a catch all phrase.
One has to see the funny side here JS. I am assuming you are satirist. Marxists have taken over the advertising and marketing industry is a new one for sure. You’ve travelled along way in your understanding of Marxist ideology.
But maybe it’s just a lack of descriptive powers, which is often the problem with anti-wokers (is it wokers or wokiests? anyway another day). They’ve just run out of command of the language and need a catch all phrase.
Which begs the question of why – suddenly – black, mixed race and the occasional south east Asian families are constantly appearing.
Dream on.
What’s being advertised is a Neo-Marxist globalist ideology.
Why does it matter what the folks in the adverts look like? It’s a product being advertised not the person.
The centre of many big cities is actually increasingly hollowed out and gentrified. Immigrant labour tending to go into the centre to do all the manual tasks but not live there.
But the trend is they move out once they or their kids prosper. Most of us live in suburbs and outside metropolitan centres. These are becoming more ethnically diverse too. And as but one example we see the rural town has an immigrant presence because the rural economy needs them and can’t survive otherwise. Sometimes they come and go with the seasons, but inevitable some stay, assimilate add to the Melting Pot. Whereas the centre of the Metropolis is wealthy and thus for now, whiter in so far as who can afford to live there. Few industries are building factories etc in the centre of cities. Look at the explosion in warehouse logistics operations too. The workforce will thus shift too.
None of this is relevant. Most of it isn’t even correct.
None of this is relevant. Most of it isn’t even correct.
Unfortunately London’s influential ‘industries’ (finance, media, TV, politics, advertising) seem to think London’s demographic reflects the country as a whole. A example being having to sit through endless TV ads that imply the whole country is full of black, Asian, or mixed race families. Even (unaskedfor) fashion/banking/holiday brochures that pop through the door make me wonder if I’m really living in a country village with a very different demographic.
The centre of many big cities is actually increasingly hollowed out and gentrified. Immigrant labour tending to go into the centre to do all the manual tasks but not live there.
But the trend is they move out once they or their kids prosper. Most of us live in suburbs and outside metropolitan centres. These are becoming more ethnically diverse too. And as but one example we see the rural town has an immigrant presence because the rural economy needs them and can’t survive otherwise. Sometimes they come and go with the seasons, but inevitable some stay, assimilate add to the Melting Pot. Whereas the centre of the Metropolis is wealthy and thus for now, whiter in so far as who can afford to live there. Few industries are building factories etc in the centre of cities. Look at the explosion in warehouse logistics operations too. The workforce will thus shift too.
No. Until Blair, you’d have had a point – though many in Leicester, Birmingham and elsewhere would have told a different story.
Now, it is *only* “rural county” backwaters which give the illusion of stability. But, as I’ve said elsewhere, immigration isn’t really the issue.
We have 23 Medieval Great Churches left in this country out of an original corpus of about 60.
Almost without exception those 23 are to be found in delightful cities, and ‘country towns’, albeit none are very large, however to describe them as “backwaters“ is inaccurate.
I suspect that many of the circa 50% who voted for Brexit and also believed that C-19 was the greatest scam since the Resurrection came from such towns and cities.
They form a unique English urban landscape and as yet have NOT been devastated by immigration or woke ‘culture bunnies’ and their pernicious ilk, although if they happen to also host a so called ‘University’ there maybe a problem in the future.
We have 23 Medieval Great Churches left in this country out of an original corpus of about 60.
Almost without exception those 23 are to be found in delightful cities, and ‘country towns’, albeit none are very large, however to describe them as “backwaters“ is inaccurate.
I suspect that many of the circa 50% who voted for Brexit and also believed that C-19 was the greatest scam since the Resurrection came from such towns and cities.
They form a unique English urban landscape and as yet have NOT been devastated by immigration or woke ‘culture bunnies’ and their pernicious ilk, although if they happen to also host a so called ‘University’ there maybe a problem in the future.
You’re correct about London, it’s been different from the rest of England (and the UK) for a very long time. Even in the time of King Alfred the number of foreign born people living there was remarked upon – people from Scandinavia, Francia, Rome – it was a centre of trade, a place for employment, and, although it is now a financial centre, this has not changed much.
No. Until Blair, you’d have had a point – though many in Leicester, Birmingham and elsewhere would have told a different story.
Now, it is *only* “rural county” backwaters which give the illusion of stability. But, as I’ve said elsewhere, immigration isn’t really the issue.
Largely a London thing. Most immigrants who come to London become Londoners – I know I did. But even in the 1990s, I remember young Muslim lads in a passing car, shouting angry abuse at my then girlfriend as we walked home late one Summer night – I had stopped to breathe heavily on a sports car showroom window somewhere in W2, and, bored with my car nonsense, my ex walked on and this car load of very angry young men drove past, yelling hatred at her. The sped off when I came running around the corner, fists out the window, screaming hatred at us. This was not sexual harassment at all, it was genuine cultural-religious rage – they were appalled that, as they initially thought, a woman was out walking by herself. I remember being staggered at their arrogance – here we all were in the greatest city on earth (in my view), a tolerant modern place, and these guys felt they had a right to impose their medieval culture. Mind you, they were the exceptions – all the other immigrants I met, from all over, de facto became Londoners very quickly. Live and let live. And most Moslems are fine – I have Moslem friends still who send me Christmas cards. But yes, sadly, even then, there was a minority who had no intention of integrating. I recall feeling angry, and thinking – if you don’t like this city, and how people live their lives here, why don’t you eff off to somewhere more suited to your tastes? Nobody’s forcing you to stay.
Both my current and ex girlfriends had similar experiences in London, but in both cases it was sexualised abuse – a gang of young goons bullying a single woman. I’m fairly sure that both their parents, and their Imam would have whipped their asses – but maybe that’s part of the problem, a cycle of abuse.
The Iman was driving.
The Iman was driving.
Both my current and ex girlfriends had similar experiences in London, but in both cases it was sexualised abuse – a gang of young goons bullying a single woman. I’m fairly sure that both their parents, and their Imam would have whipped their asses – but maybe that’s part of the problem, a cycle of abuse.
Well I rail against it
As do many others, whose voices have been ruthlessly silenced. And you have every right.
Even so, I don’t believe immigration generally comes even close to being the main threat we now face. See my other comments here.
As do many others, whose voices have been ruthlessly silenced. And you have every right.
Even so, I don’t believe immigration generally comes even close to being the main threat we now face. See my other comments here.
I hope you mean a third of London’s population. Doesn’t this reflect “white flight” though? London is not the only spoiled city, Washington, Toronto, Paris for example. Perhaps one day they will realise we haven’t invented a new mousetrap and the flow will reverse once Geo.W and Blair’s disastrous policies settle down.
I quite agree, although I also rail against it! 10 million more and rising since 2000.
Your contribution, although immensely popular is in fact racist. In the same sentence you state 40% of London’s population is foreign born (you avoided calling them ‘Londoners’) and then suggest that only whites are British! Sure you didn’t say exactly that but the message us clear enough.. excluded are people like Rishi Sunak and half the Tory parliamentary party! Have you no shame?
Even as an immigrant, I would tend to agree, and I am aghast to see so much of London essentially cleansed of its original, wonderful culture – it’s not just the extent of immigration but also the fact that large groups of immigrants have been allowed to basically form their own isolated enclaves instead of assimilation with the host culture.
But I would suggest that immigration doesn’t fully explain the story. Britain and the West faces an existential challenge due to decreasing economic clout and share of global population, and there just isn’t any appreciation of the efforts and changes in mindset required to cope. Despite what one might feel about the empire etc, I still think British culture is amazing and I would fear that “calamitous, irreversible decline” is exactly the risk here.
Not just economically but culturally. The uniquely irreverent nature of the British people and their humour, for instance, is under threat. Or for instance gay marriage (a right that few gay people actually opt for, once granted) – so much mental energy expended on this, but not much concern about the sheer number of British children born out of wedlock and not having a father’s presence.
A very important point. And I agree that it had brought many benefits as well as some costs and problems. What is so disappointing is that we are making so little effort to have an immigration and integration policy that maximises the benefits and minimises the costs.
I must disagree.
In my particular rural county things are much as they were in 1945. A bit of agricultural modernisation, some decrease in bird numbers, more cars and fewer trains, but otherwise much the same. Certainly no influx of ‘strangers’.
Surely London has always been a city apart, and a city of mass immigration?
Largely a London thing. Most immigrants who come to London become Londoners – I know I did. But even in the 1990s, I remember young Muslim lads in a passing car, shouting angry abuse at my then girlfriend as we walked home late one Summer night – I had stopped to breathe heavily on a sports car showroom window somewhere in W2, and, bored with my car nonsense, my ex walked on and this car load of very angry young men drove past, yelling hatred at her. The sped off when I came running around the corner, fists out the window, screaming hatred at us. This was not sexual harassment at all, it was genuine cultural-religious rage – they were appalled that, as they initially thought, a woman was out walking by herself. I remember being staggered at their arrogance – here we all were in the greatest city on earth (in my view), a tolerant modern place, and these guys felt they had a right to impose their medieval culture. Mind you, they were the exceptions – all the other immigrants I met, from all over, de facto became Londoners very quickly. Live and let live. And most Moslems are fine – I have Moslem friends still who send me Christmas cards. But yes, sadly, even then, there was a minority who had no intention of integrating. I recall feeling angry, and thinking – if you don’t like this city, and how people live their lives here, why don’t you eff off to somewhere more suited to your tastes? Nobody’s forcing you to stay.
Well I rail against it
I hope you mean a third of London’s population. Doesn’t this reflect “white flight” though? London is not the only spoiled city, Washington, Toronto, Paris for example. Perhaps one day they will realise we haven’t invented a new mousetrap and the flow will reverse once Geo.W and Blair’s disastrous policies settle down.
I quite agree, although I also rail against it! 10 million more and rising since 2000.
Your contribution, although immensely popular is in fact racist. In the same sentence you state 40% of London’s population is foreign born (you avoided calling them ‘Londoners’) and then suggest that only whites are British! Sure you didn’t say exactly that but the message us clear enough.. excluded are people like Rishi Sunak and half the Tory parliamentary party! Have you no shame?
The biggest single transformation in Britain, but particularly England, since World War 2 is the enormous change in our population make up due to high and completely unprecedented levels of immigration. (It is completely untrue that Britain has ‘always’ been a land of immigration). Extraordinarily, London’s population is 40% foreign born, and white British make up only just over a third of the population.
I don’t rail about this, just find it quite amazing that out of some sort of misplaced politeness that commentators barely mention it. Of course this has created huge changes in the country, whether for good and ill and will continue to do so.
It’s less a “transformation” that is needed, more of a restoration of basic English liberties, decency, and sensibilities.
A simple, easy to articulate and understand, flagship policy of any radically restorative programme would be “Leave the WHO”. It’s run by communists and corporate cronies collaborating with each other to put in place a global system of tyrannical top down control. People won’t stand for it, and like all multi-national empires, once it is established it will collapse under the weight of its own contradictions, most likely with the violence, bloodshed and misery that attends the collapse of any empire. It is just question of when, not if, this will happen.
So there’s golden opportunity now for ambitious young liberally-minded and genuinely progressive political leaders to start making the case for this and have an enormous impact on UK politics. And more than that, by making sure that the pandemic treaty plans are effectively dead on arrival by forcing the UK to withdraw its support for them, to give the world the gift of avoiding the enormous suffering and pain to which a disorderly collapse of an established empire would give rise.
There are plenty of floating voters who don’t like communism, corporatism, or globalism and the huge inequalities to which they give rise, but would never support Continuity UKIP or their populist ilk. The mainstream parties are all ideologically captured in a silent prison of fear that they themselves helped to build. People are crying out for a credible, radically centrist, alternative. So the space is free. Golden opportunity both to make a political career and a real difference in the world.
Flagship policy: leave the World Health Organisation?
You want a “radically centrist alternative” with the “golden opportunity to make a real difference”? Spend a few moments looking up William Clouston’s SDP.
Another one here who cannot believe that the one party with policies reflecting an easy majority of the population doesn’t get more coverage.
Oh yes, it’s because the media reflect their own priorities and not those of the public.
Correct. I am sure your “easy majority” suggestion is fact. There is a total disconnect between what people really think and how they end up voting. Bizarre.
Correct. I am sure your “easy majority” suggestion is fact. There is a total disconnect between what people really think and how they end up voting. Bizarre.
Another one here who cannot believe that the one party with policies reflecting an easy majority of the population doesn’t get more coverage.
Oh yes, it’s because the media reflect their own priorities and not those of the public.
Not just the WHO – the corrupt UN in its entirety. The IPCC is the greater threat to our future, but people have been blinded by the deliberate chaos of the past 3 years.
Then there’s the ECHR, NATO and others to deal with, and the WEF to be declared as a terrorist organisation – I exaggerate, but barely.
In my mad way I always liken the IPCC and its ‘message’ to the ‘early’ Christian Church, chipping away at the glorious Pax Romana.
In my mad way I always liken the IPCC and its ‘message’ to the ‘early’ Christian Church, chipping away at the glorious Pax Romana.
Flagship policy: leave the World Health Organisation?
You want a “radically centrist alternative” with the “golden opportunity to make a real difference”? Spend a few moments looking up William Clouston’s SDP.
Not just the WHO – the corrupt UN in its entirety. The IPCC is the greater threat to our future, but people have been blinded by the deliberate chaos of the past 3 years.
Then there’s the ECHR, NATO and others to deal with, and the WEF to be declared as a terrorist organisation – I exaggerate, but barely.
It’s less a “transformation” that is needed, more of a restoration of basic English liberties, decency, and sensibilities.
A simple, easy to articulate and understand, flagship policy of any radically restorative programme would be “Leave the WHO”. It’s run by communists and corporate cronies collaborating with each other to put in place a global system of tyrannical top down control. People won’t stand for it, and like all multi-national empires, once it is established it will collapse under the weight of its own contradictions, most likely with the violence, bloodshed and misery that attends the collapse of any empire. It is just question of when, not if, this will happen.
So there’s golden opportunity now for ambitious young liberally-minded and genuinely progressive political leaders to start making the case for this and have an enormous impact on UK politics. And more than that, by making sure that the pandemic treaty plans are effectively dead on arrival by forcing the UK to withdraw its support for them, to give the world the gift of avoiding the enormous suffering and pain to which a disorderly collapse of an established empire would give rise.
There are plenty of floating voters who don’t like communism, corporatism, or globalism and the huge inequalities to which they give rise, but would never support Continuity UKIP or their populist ilk. The mainstream parties are all ideologically captured in a silent prison of fear that they themselves helped to build. People are crying out for a credible, radically centrist, alternative. So the space is free. Golden opportunity both to make a political career and a real difference in the world.
The biggest decline, that affects our everyday lives, is the erosion of freedom and free speech, and the interference of Government in every facet of our living existence. Then comes the internet and ‘ on line’ to de- personalise human contact and relationship, and allow a ” cannot be done” as opposed to a ” can do society”: with that had become the exponential decline in people making decisions and wanting to take responsibility, for fear of losing their jobs. This has been swiftly followed by the ‘ liability culture’ from the US, whereby fear of being sued creates restrictions and again avoidance of decision making.
The nanny state, not least during Covid now invokes DDR like fear into any form of ” non compliance’ in exchange for an illusion and delusion of ” safety” enforced by an ever more unaccountable, low grade police force dressed like paramilitaries from a Latin American dictatorship. Finally, the National Socialist ‘ nu britn’ In Honnicher and Ceaucescu mode persecutes those who do not comply with Orwellian non legal diktats on worshipping the fascist trident of LGBTQ / racism/ global warming, to criminal proceedings, unemployability, and public ridicule.
Even our military have been subject to so called ” diverse and inclusive” dogma and mantra, that is literally dissolving its discipline like a giant acid bath.
Britain, and arguably the whole world, has never been a more oppressive, and totalitarian place to live in, ever….. and the sad thing is that no politician, or any other group of people have the guts, courage and backbone to stand up and fight…. with the possible exception of Jeremy Clarkson.
Clarkson for PM!! Get him to stand for reform?
All that crap is from America. Anyone trying would be trying to stand up to an enormous American woke propaganda machine….
Good idea, and Mr Frank McCusker (above) for Home Secretary, assuming he turns down NortherN Ireland.
Yeah no. Sorry Mr mcCuskers anecdotes are unhelpful in my opinion. I have my own experience of working inner city (Leeds where the London terrorist plots were planned) Muslim communities, much of the serious distrust came from Americas war on terror. I worked street cabs for virgin media, around the streets in Leeds where they arrested the guys that were linked to it, they thought they were having their phones tapped etc. They used to come out and hassle the blokes, the guys said it was fine until 9/11. Then it got much, much worse after 7/7 when the police made multiple raids in the area. Eventually they had to take multiple vans, for safety, got bottled etc. That was around 2006/2009 we did that. That’s what I know from my experience. And I know it was a sham American war with heavy propaganda. Now this isn’t to say that we don’t have problems within some parts of the Muslim community, but alienating them even further with anecdotes like Mr mc cuskers is foolish on many levels. America once again really didn’t help matters. In my humble opinion. He reckons they were Muslim which he managed to identify as they drove by in the car? I feel like you are unserious Mr Stanhope.
Your are quite correct Ms Emery.
In fact I was rather surprised by Mc Cusker’s somewhat hypocritical remarks, given the outraged “Plastic Paddy’” role he normally adopts when discussing Northern Ireland.
However I am not entirely blameless and sometimes I just cannot resist ‘winding Mc Custer up’. I should know better and so should he, at circa 57. Still that’s what’s meant by Freedom of Speech and long may it remain so, for the alternative is FAR, FAR worse!
Jolly good. I suspected you were winding me up. I agree. Tbh all the crap they heaped on the Muslim community was where all this stop ‘hate speech’ business started in the first place.
Yep, freedom of speech. Very important. I left Mr mc custer to it in favour of Mr Iker today.
Jolly good. I suspected you were winding me up. I agree. Tbh all the crap they heaped on the Muslim community was where all this stop ‘hate speech’ business started in the first place.
Yep, freedom of speech. Very important. I left Mr mc custer to it in favour of Mr Iker today.
Your are quite correct Ms Emery.
In fact I was rather surprised by Mc Cusker’s somewhat hypocritical remarks, given the outraged “Plastic Paddy’” role he normally adopts when discussing Northern Ireland.
However I am not entirely blameless and sometimes I just cannot resist ‘winding Mc Custer up’. I should know better and so should he, at circa 57. Still that’s what’s meant by Freedom of Speech and long may it remain so, for the alternative is FAR, FAR worse!
Yeah no. Sorry Mr mcCuskers anecdotes are unhelpful in my opinion. I have my own experience of working inner city (Leeds where the London terrorist plots were planned) Muslim communities, much of the serious distrust came from Americas war on terror. I worked street cabs for virgin media, around the streets in Leeds where they arrested the guys that were linked to it, they thought they were having their phones tapped etc. They used to come out and hassle the blokes, the guys said it was fine until 9/11. Then it got much, much worse after 7/7 when the police made multiple raids in the area. Eventually they had to take multiple vans, for safety, got bottled etc. That was around 2006/2009 we did that. That’s what I know from my experience. And I know it was a sham American war with heavy propaganda. Now this isn’t to say that we don’t have problems within some parts of the Muslim community, but alienating them even further with anecdotes like Mr mc cuskers is foolish on many levels. America once again really didn’t help matters. In my humble opinion. He reckons they were Muslim which he managed to identify as they drove by in the car? I feel like you are unserious Mr Stanhope.
Good idea, and Mr Frank McCusker (above) for Home Secretary, assuming he turns down NortherN Ireland.
Jeremy Clarkson?!?!? The epitome of the English pub bore with his beer belly, bald patch and extravagantly stupid opinions! His guts and courage consist entirely of making hideous comments about a young American lady who he has decided that he doesn’t like.
Yes, I can see why you people would like him…
Yeah sometimes you have to shake it up. He would do that if nothing else. Times are desperate. At least it would give old starmer and sunak something to think about. He can’t make the country look any more stupid than the current set have managed too anyway. And it would be entertaining.
Entertaining for those who enjoy the casual racism and misogyny of the schoolyard bully perhaps. We know how to deal with oafs like that where I come from.
Yeah you have a point. He has made plenty of edgy remarks. But he’s from entertainment, not politics so his job is partly making (sometimes bad) jokes. I wasn’t entirely serious. Im not sure he should be in charge of a nato type conflict for instance. That would be interesting.
There’s nothing edgy about Clarkson – he’s your garden variety middle England bore with a taste for racism, misogyny and classism. I suspect he’d get pretty short shrift if he said what he does in public but he hides behind the pages of the Sun – he doesn’t even have the decency to have his awful column in a decent paper.
He certainly wouldn’t try it around where I grew up – even he isn’t that dim witted.
Sorry it was a half arsed answer tbh. Let me be crystal clear. I entertained your point nicely the first time about misogyny etc. Respected the fact you are probably American, you seem to like biden and so getting into some kind of misogyny battle if you ardently believe he is, is pointless on my behalf. If you think he’s like that. That’s fine.
However. I do not think he is actually racist, misogynist or whatever other stupid labels we have to stick in people. He’s an entertainer. He makes jokes. People have a right to be offended by those by jokes. If they are, they won’t watch him. He would be unpopular. Thankfully Britain likes a joke, and knows how to take one. Britain believes in freedom, we shouldn’t be cancelling people and preventing freedom of speech, regardless of whether its offensive or not. It’s starts a very slippery slope all that business. Also top gear has toured the world, I’ve never seen him be really racist to anyone, the specials were brilliant.
So, I like Clarkson, I can see why wall flowers like your good self might get all offended sometimes. But the majority, myself included, just find him very entertaining. He would stand up for what he believes in I think, I would vote for him.
Sorry it was a half arsed answer tbh. Let me be crystal clear. I entertained your point nicely the first time about misogyny etc. Respected the fact you are probably American, you seem to like biden and so getting into some kind of misogyny battle if you ardently believe he is, is pointless on my behalf. If you think he’s like that. That’s fine.
However. I do not think he is actually racist, misogynist or whatever other stupid labels we have to stick in people. He’s an entertainer. He makes jokes. People have a right to be offended by those by jokes. If they are, they won’t watch him. He would be unpopular. Thankfully Britain likes a joke, and knows how to take one. Britain believes in freedom, we shouldn’t be cancelling people and preventing freedom of speech, regardless of whether its offensive or not. It’s starts a very slippery slope all that business. Also top gear has toured the world, I’ve never seen him be really racist to anyone, the specials were brilliant.
So, I like Clarkson, I can see why wall flowers like your good self might get all offended sometimes. But the majority, myself included, just find him very entertaining. He would stand up for what he believes in I think, I would vote for him.
There’s nothing edgy about Clarkson – he’s your garden variety middle England bore with a taste for racism, misogyny and classism. I suspect he’d get pretty short shrift if he said what he does in public but he hides behind the pages of the Sun – he doesn’t even have the decency to have his awful column in a decent paper.
He certainly wouldn’t try it around where I grew up – even he isn’t that dim witted.
Yeah you have a point. He has made plenty of edgy remarks. But he’s from entertainment, not politics so his job is partly making (sometimes bad) jokes. I wasn’t entirely serious. Im not sure he should be in charge of a nato type conflict for instance. That would be interesting.
Entertaining for those who enjoy the casual racism and misogyny of the schoolyard bully perhaps. We know how to deal with oafs like that where I come from.
Yeah sometimes you have to shake it up. He would do that if nothing else. Times are desperate. At least it would give old starmer and sunak something to think about. He can’t make the country look any more stupid than the current set have managed too anyway. And it would be entertaining.
“Britain, and arguably the whole world, has never been a more oppressive, and totalitarian place to live in, ever”
Whenever I think you people have plumbed the absolute depths of stupidity you come up with something even more ludicrous. Well done!
Back to the gun room or stables McNeil and get cleaning my tack and cartridge bag…
More fantasy from our unhinged chum!
You need to up your game. If your going to troll, at least be good at it.
You need to up your game. If your going to troll, at least be good at it.
More fantasy from our unhinged chum!
Back to the gun room or stables McNeil and get cleaning my tack and cartridge bag…
Clarkson for PM!! Get him to stand for reform?
All that crap is from America. Anyone trying would be trying to stand up to an enormous American woke propaganda machine….
Jeremy Clarkson?!?!? The epitome of the English pub bore with his beer belly, bald patch and extravagantly stupid opinions! His guts and courage consist entirely of making hideous comments about a young American lady who he has decided that he doesn’t like.
Yes, I can see why you people would like him…
“Britain, and arguably the whole world, has never been a more oppressive, and totalitarian place to live in, ever”
Whenever I think you people have plumbed the absolute depths of stupidity you come up with something even more ludicrous. Well done!
The biggest decline, that affects our everyday lives, is the erosion of freedom and free speech, and the interference of Government in every facet of our living existence. Then comes the internet and ‘ on line’ to de- personalise human contact and relationship, and allow a ” cannot be done” as opposed to a ” can do society”: with that had become the exponential decline in people making decisions and wanting to take responsibility, for fear of losing their jobs. This has been swiftly followed by the ‘ liability culture’ from the US, whereby fear of being sued creates restrictions and again avoidance of decision making.
The nanny state, not least during Covid now invokes DDR like fear into any form of ” non compliance’ in exchange for an illusion and delusion of ” safety” enforced by an ever more unaccountable, low grade police force dressed like paramilitaries from a Latin American dictatorship. Finally, the National Socialist ‘ nu britn’ In Honnicher and Ceaucescu mode persecutes those who do not comply with Orwellian non legal diktats on worshipping the fascist trident of LGBTQ / racism/ global warming, to criminal proceedings, unemployability, and public ridicule.
Even our military have been subject to so called ” diverse and inclusive” dogma and mantra, that is literally dissolving its discipline like a giant acid bath.
Britain, and arguably the whole world, has never been a more oppressive, and totalitarian place to live in, ever….. and the sad thing is that no politician, or any other group of people have the guts, courage and backbone to stand up and fight…. with the possible exception of Jeremy Clarkson.
It is good to see a more upbeat outlook. And of course every generation perceives decline. Alas I fear this essay ignores the most profound irreversible changes brought about by 40 years as as EU province and the corrosive decline caused by 20 years of the progressive revolution of Blair and Brown. The pyramid of governance has tipped over. The vast unelected former base of public sector, civil service, lawyers and regulatory technocracy now sits at the top, above the tiny Executive, embedded and sustained by 20 years of social justice/ human rights laws and precautionary principle legislation. The levers of power do not sit in Number 10 or the neuteured Parliament, hence their utter paralysis on Brexit on open borders on tax policy, wokism, NHS etc. And worse, at no time before the 90s did the British State openly commit to and serve a new set of dangerously warped ideologies- a cult of equality/welfarism, divisive identitarianism and now a fanatical Net Zero policy designed to arrest economic growth and to punish the poor. It is this combination of catastrophic revolution in the functioning of the State and the surrender to cult ideologies of ALL political parties and State technocracy that means we will not – cannot – escape this doom loop of decline until the whole show folds. No ‘young ones’ have the levers to fight this de facto One Party State, its laws, its media protectors. We are closer to the corrupt communist model of goverment in the 1980s than the bygone era of national democracy before 1994.
It is good to see a more upbeat outlook. And of course every generation perceives decline. Alas I fear this essay ignores the most profound irreversible changes brought about by 40 years as as EU province and the corrosive decline caused by 20 years of the progressive revolution of Blair and Brown. The pyramid of governance has tipped over. The vast unelected former base of public sector, civil service, lawyers and regulatory technocracy now sits at the top, above the tiny Executive, embedded and sustained by 20 years of social justice/ human rights laws and precautionary principle legislation. The levers of power do not sit in Number 10 or the neuteured Parliament, hence their utter paralysis on Brexit on open borders on tax policy, wokism, NHS etc. And worse, at no time before the 90s did the British State openly commit to and serve a new set of dangerously warped ideologies- a cult of equality/welfarism, divisive identitarianism and now a fanatical Net Zero policy designed to arrest economic growth and to punish the poor. It is this combination of catastrophic revolution in the functioning of the State and the surrender to cult ideologies of ALL political parties and State technocracy that means we will not – cannot – escape this doom loop of decline until the whole show folds. No ‘young ones’ have the levers to fight this de facto One Party State, its laws, its media protectors. We are closer to the corrupt communist model of goverment in the 1980s than the bygone era of national democracy before 1994.
My beef is that that our current political class are simply not serious people. Po-faced, yes, but not serious.
There is no deep analysis of the problems we face at home and abroad. And therefore no attempt to generate policies to address them. Just constant jostling for position in readiness for the next election, after which the winners will impose their particular choice of trivial lunacy (gender recognition, I’m looking at you) while ignoring the many elephants fighting to get in the room.
they are pond life…
That is an insult to Newts!
They are lower than that, the phrase ‘scum’ and ‘earth’ springs to mind.
That is an insult to Newts!
They are lower than that, the phrase ‘scum’ and ‘earth’ springs to mind.
they are pond life…
My beef is that that our current political class are simply not serious people. Po-faced, yes, but not serious.
There is no deep analysis of the problems we face at home and abroad. And therefore no attempt to generate policies to address them. Just constant jostling for position in readiness for the next election, after which the winners will impose their particular choice of trivial lunacy (gender recognition, I’m looking at you) while ignoring the many elephants fighting to get in the room.
I wonder whether what has been written about the decline here would not also apply to several other countries with similar political systems: Australia, Canada our the USA.