The human butt has long been the object of all manner of obsessions. We worry over it: its size, its shape, whether or not it has cellulite on it, how it looks in a pair of jeans. But now, a new source of concern emerges: the alarming possibility that one’s butt — or at least, one’s relationship to butts generally — is racist.
For this we may thank the existence of Butts: A Backstory, a new book by journalist Heather Radke. To be fair, it surely is not Radke’s intention to inculcate racial anxiety in her reader: Butts feels like a passion project, deeply researched and fun to read, offering a deep dive into the history and culture of the human rear end, from the Venus Callipyge (from whose name the word “callipygian” is derived) to Buns of Steel to Sir Mix-A-Lot’s seminal rap celebrating all things gluteal. It is a topic ripe for well-rounded analysis, so to speak. But having been written in the very particular milieu of 2020s America, Butts unfortunately falls victim to the contemporary vogue for viewing all matters of culture through a racial lens. The result is a work that not only flattens the butt, figuratively, but makes the book feel ultimately less like an anthropological study and more like an entry into the crowded genre of works which serve to stoke the white liberal guilt of the NPR tote bag set.
The concept of cultural appropriation has always struck me as both fundamentally misguided and historically illiterate, arising from a studied incuriosity about both the inherent contagiousness of culture and the mimetic nature of human beings. But when it comes to the remixing of thing such as textiles, hairdos or fashion trends across cultures, the appropriation complaints seem at least understandable, if not persuasive: there’s a conscious element there, a choice to take what looked interesting on someone else and adorn your own body in the same way. Here, though, the appropriated item is literally a body part — the size and shape of which we rather notoriously have no control over. And yet Radke employs more or less the same argument to stigmatise the appropriation of butts as is often made about dreadlocks or bindis.
The book is insistent on this front: butts are a black thing, and liking them is a black male thing, and the appreciation of butts by non-black folks represents a moral error: cultural theft or stolen valour or some potent mix of the two. Among the scholars and experts quoted by Radke on this front is one who asserts that the contemporary appreciation of butts by the wider male population is “coming from Black male desire. Straight-up, point-blank. It’s only through Black males and their gaze that white men are starting to take notice”. To paraphrase a popular meme: “Fellas, is it racist to like butts?”
Perhaps needless to say, a wealth of cultural artefacts — from the aforementioned Venus sculpture to the works of Peter Paul Rubens to certain showtunes of the Seventies — belie the notion that white guys were oblivious to the existence of butts until black men made it cool to notice them. But the cultural legacy of the butt is undeniably entangled with the legacy of racism and eugenics, including a sordid and repellent history wherein certain anthropologists of the white male variety both fetishised the physiques of black women with ample backsides and conflated their peculiarities with savagery and promiscuity.
Most prominent in this history is the case of Sarah Baartman, to whom Radke devotes an entire chapter plus countless references: Baartman was a member of the Khoekhoe tribe in South Africa, who in the early 1800s was coerced into travelling to Europe and participating in a freak show-style exhibition in which onlookers gawked at — and sometimes poked or grabbed — her buttocks. If Baartman’s feelings about this remain somewhat mysterious (the records of the time are ambiguous as to how voluntary her participation was), the motivations of the men who trafficked her are less so: anthropologists of the time were obsessed with categorising humans into a racial hierarchy. It wasn’t just Baartman’s butt that fascinated them but her entire body, including the shape of her skull and her elongated labia, which were held up as evidence that she (and hence all black women) were a lower order of human being.
Jesus Christ. No wonder they’re all on anxiety medication.
This says it all! Great article though.
Does not matter the size.
It’s all in how they move the package !!
Little did Queen know they were supporting racist attitudes with their ‘Fat Bottomed Girls’ and the video featuring a lot of white girls.
Ha! And let’s not speak of Freddie Mercury satirically singing “I want to be free” dressed as a moustachioed housewife pushing a Hoover.
Ha! And let’s not speak of Freddie Mercury satirically singing “I want to be free” dressed as a moustachioed housewife pushing a Hoover.
A big butt is not attractive without a thinner waist. I can understand the attraction but it is off limits to me as I am happily married to my flat bottomed wife so concentrate and enjoy looking at her lovely legs.
Some of these packages are moved with a forklift.
Little did Queen know they were supporting racist attitudes with their ‘Fat Bottomed Girls’ and the video featuring a lot of white girls.
A big butt is not attractive without a thinner waist. I can understand the attraction but it is off limits to me as I am happily married to my flat bottomed wife so concentrate and enjoy looking at her lovely legs.
Some of these packages are moved with a forklift.
Does not matter the size.
It’s all in how they move the package !!
Is it racist to like big butts?
Two words: ….
Betteridge’s Law.
Exactly. It’s a way of making a baseless claim without any danger of having to justify it.
I don’t know if it racist but I’ll always admire one. Can’t help it. It speaks of fitness and athleticism sometimes.
The butt in that pic isn’t a fitness butt. It’s cushion for the pushin’…
The butt in that pic isn’t a fitness butt. It’s cushion for the pushin’…
Exactly. It’s a way of making a baseless claim without any danger of having to justify it.
I don’t know if it racist but I’ll always admire one. Can’t help it. It speaks of fitness and athleticism sometimes.
Yes. And in fact, this whole discussion is predicated on a false assumption: namely, that the “size” of the female behind is what matters. At least, it is not of any concern to me. What matters to me are how it stacks up on the following: Is it plump and pert? Does it have firm cushioning? Does it stick out provocatively? Is it shapely? If the answers to these questions is “Yes”, then I’m in, regardless of “size”. And so, I suspect. are most who admire female posteriors. If, conversely, it is fat, flat, flabby, dumpy, and/or oddly shaped, then it tells me the woman is either not taking care of herself or is genetically unlucky.
And yes, the conception that “White” males learned to admire female asses from their “Black” male counterparts is completely ludicrous, and insulting to all involved. I (who am White, if race is even a valid concept), was barely 14 when I suddenly noticed how inexplicably drawn I was to the bottom on the girl who sat in front of me in school. This came to me as a revelation: the idea that the human behind could be sexy had never occurred to me before this moment.
Fourteen is about the right age for a boy to notice these things.
I would have thought it was odd for a boy not to be noticing bums at this age, male or female depending on ones preference.
I would have thought it was odd for a boy not to be noticing bums at this age, male or female depending on ones preference.
Fourteen is about the right age for a boy to notice these things.
Can we lace that with fentanyl?
The whole thing is just non-sense. There’s nothing racist about what a man or a woman finds attractive in another. Biology is not racist. Additionally not every man likes a woman with a large butt. There are butt men and there are breast men and there are bitt & breast men. There is no singular shape of a woman that is ideal to every man. Arguments about men’s preferences with regards to how women look is just a preference, same as how women have preferences with regards to men. For some reason (probably feminism) men’s preferences are called everything from misogynists to perverted whereas women’s preferences are praised for making them strong and independent boss babes.
This says it all! Great article though.
Is it racist to like big butts?
Two words: ….
Betteridge’s Law.
Yes. And in fact, this whole discussion is predicated on a false assumption: namely, that the “size” of the female behind is what matters. At least, it is not of any concern to me. What matters to me are how it stacks up on the following: Is it plump and pert? Does it have firm cushioning? Does it stick out provocatively? Is it shapely? If the answers to these questions is “Yes”, then I’m in, regardless of “size”. And so, I suspect. are most who admire female posteriors. If, conversely, it is fat, flat, flabby, dumpy, and/or oddly shaped, then it tells me the woman is either not taking care of herself or is genetically unlucky.
And yes, the conception that “White” males learned to admire female asses from their “Black” male counterparts is completely ludicrous, and insulting to all involved. I (who am White, if race is even a valid concept), was barely 14 when I suddenly noticed how inexplicably drawn I was to the bottom on the girl who sat in front of me in school. This came to me as a revelation: the idea that the human behind could be sexy had never occurred to me before this moment.
Can we lace that with fentanyl?
The whole thing is just non-sense. There’s nothing racist about what a man or a woman finds attractive in another. Biology is not racist. Additionally not every man likes a woman with a large butt. There are butt men and there are breast men and there are bitt & breast men. There is no singular shape of a woman that is ideal to every man. Arguments about men’s preferences with regards to how women look is just a preference, same as how women have preferences with regards to men. For some reason (probably feminism) men’s preferences are called everything from misogynists to perverted whereas women’s preferences are praised for making them strong and independent boss babes.
Jesus Christ. No wonder they’re all on anxiety medication.
The racial discourse is making everyone more racist. Good work
When I was working in New York in the early 90s, a CUNY professor condemned blackboards as racist because the white chalk written on the black board was emblematic of white privilege founded on working blacks. His colleague noted as evidence that white golfers were self-hating racists their frenzied attempts to whack a small white ball with a long stick into a small black hole. It’s no enigma where the genuine racial hatred lies. When it was suggested these people were “inverse racists” they angrily retorted “We’re not inverse, we’re just as entitled to be racist as whites. Dont you dare call us inverted racists, we’re racists.” This and countless examples show how embittered Baby Boomer Civil Rights leaders, having won the war, spawned a new generation of racists where there were virtually none left. Equality is never enough. Revenge!
When I was working in New York in the early 90s, a CUNY professor condemned blackboards as racist because the white chalk written on the black board was emblematic of white privilege founded on working blacks. His colleague noted as evidence that white golfers were self-hating racists their frenzied attempts to whack a small white ball with a long stick into a small black hole. It’s no enigma where the genuine racial hatred lies. When it was suggested these people were “inverse racists” they angrily retorted “We’re not inverse, we’re just as entitled to be racist as whites. Dont you dare call us inverted racists, we’re racists.” This and countless examples show how embittered Baby Boomer Civil Rights leaders, having won the war, spawned a new generation of racists where there were virtually none left. Equality is never enough. Revenge!
The racial discourse is making everyone more racist. Good work
An arch and artful review of a singularly stupid sounding and narrowly focused book about woman’s bottoms from a hyper-racialised US perspective. Bonkers.
Is it not all about the triangle anyway ?
It’s not just butts either. News item today about a white girl being chastised online for ‘appropriation’ because she used a hair oil designed for the hair of black people.
Is it not all about the triangle anyway ?
It’s not just butts either. News item today about a white girl being chastised online for ‘appropriation’ because she used a hair oil designed for the hair of black people.
An arch and artful review of a singularly stupid sounding and narrowly focused book about woman’s bottoms from a hyper-racialised US perspective. Bonkers.
I tend ignore the anxious racist white progressive woman that capitalises ‘black’ while viewing whiteness as akin to toxic waste. I doubly ignore them if they self-identify as a journalist. I congratulate the author on managing to wade through such neurotic, self-hating bilge. Hopefully one day soon we will return to a time where ‘thickness’ (i.e. a sign of obesity) is no longer considered high prestige through association with supposedly universally sinless African-Americans.
I tend ignore the anxious racist white progressive woman that capitalises ‘black’ while viewing whiteness as akin to toxic waste. I doubly ignore them if they self-identify as a journalist. I congratulate the author on managing to wade through such neurotic, self-hating bilge. Hopefully one day soon we will return to a time where ‘thickness’ (i.e. a sign of obesity) is no longer considered high prestige through association with supposedly universally sinless African-Americans.
I think these critical theorists are getting dumber.
Sorry, but is that even possible?
You realise that as soon as they read this, they’ll interpret it as a challenge?
You realise that as soon as they read this, they’ll interpret it as a challenge?
They’re also historically illiterate in their own supposed journalistic fields, to attribute the current fashion for large bottoms as an ‘african/black’ cultural import that Westerners are appropriating would be to completely ignore things like the fashion during Victorian and Edwardian era in West for women to wear huge bustles that emphasised both the waist and the bottom to exaggerated proportions. It’s just so tediously lazy.
Sorry, but is that even possible?
They’re also historically illiterate in their own supposed journalistic fields, to attribute the current fashion for large bottoms as an ‘african/black’ cultural import that Westerners are appropriating would be to completely ignore things like the fashion during Victorian and Edwardian era in West for women to wear huge bustles that emphasised both the waist and the bottom to exaggerated proportions. It’s just so tediously lazy.
I think these critical theorists are getting dumber.
“Among the scholars and experts quoted by Radke on this front is one who asserts that the contemporary appreciation of butts by the wider male population is “coming from Black male desire. Straight-up, point-blank. It’s only through Black males and their gaze that white men are starting to take notice”.”
The fallacy is pretty obvious surely? The argument presupposes that white men never possessed such an appreciation until they realised that black men possessed it. Leaving aside the fair point that even if this were true there would be nothing wrong with it, surely the presumption is clearly idiotic?
How can anyone imagine they know this about all white men? That white men can be “deemed” never to include any individuals who have that particular aesthetic or sexual preference? Anyone taking this idea seriously is so stupid that they disqualify themselves from inclusion in civilised debate, not merely because the generalisation is so obviously ridiculous, but because it is also racist. And by that I mean racist in the real sense, not that daft only-white-people-can-be-racist sense that is lazily trotted out by the usual suspects on a routine basis.
Speaking from personal preference, I do say that a nicely shaped bottom on a woman is considerably more important than, say, breast size, from an aesthetic perspective. (b**b size is the least important aspect of a woman’s appearance as far as I’m concerned, pretty much everything else makes more of a difference). While that’s not quite the same as saying I like a big booty in the specific sense referred to in the article, it is nonetheless true that this is a preference I’ve had for far longer than the recent emergence of a general preference amongst black guys. But even if it wasn’t and I’d never thought about it until watching R&B videos, why would that be a problem?
Either way thought the truth is almost certainly this: loads of white guys have had such a preference for all of time, it’s just that it never became the centre of yet another identity politics circus, that’s all. What is also true about the idiotic nature of public debate these days is that if it had actually emerged as a white guy preference, the social justice agenda wouldn’t be talking about cultural appropriation at this point, it’d be boring on about rape culture, objectification and the apparent aggression and threat that supposedly constitutes the male gaze.
Hmm, a man after my own heart. I shared your reaction, but then struggled to think of any ancient evidence that we white men have indeed had such an eternal preference. Another point to consider is that in the colonial era white men allegedly tried to universalise the missionary position to rest of world. Sounds like both you and me are grateful that the black counter evangelists were more successful!
(Ok the missionary position story is probably largely false, based on erroreous asserstions by Alfred Kinsey etc, but still ..)
If it really does turn out that black men have legitimised a previously-inadmissible preference for the female behind amongst straight white men, then I’ll happily thank them all. It is vanishingly unlikely that this is actually true though. It hasn’t come up before simply because polite society has excluded for many years the general subject of what men find attractive in women. The issue has emerged now because the intersectional hierarchical analysis to which every social issue must be subject these days has deemed it unacceptable that black men’s preferences should be forced into hiding in the manner that was just fine when it was men generally.
One personal anecdote is that I knew an Irish publican many years ago who was entirely unapologetic about the fact that he liked an arse at least three feet wide on a woman. I’d also cite the reference to the Queen song Fat Bottomed Girls as some sort of evidence, but I’m not sure we can be confident that Freddie Mercury’s heart was really in it. 😉
Yeah, I still partly stand behind what I’ve said, but on reflection your statements are almost certainly much closer to the truth. Btw, in my limited experience, black culture tends to be inclusive, and in as much as white folks appreciate & even imitate it (perhaps you’d agree that happens in some cases, even if not relevant to butt appreciation) I’d say few regular black folks would decry that as cultural appropriation. (Except maybe in extreme cases)
I do very much agree that parts of black culture are often copied by the white majority, but I also of course maintain that calling it appropriation is dimwitted nonsense.
There are certain times though where there can be other reasons why it might be a good idea for white people not to, for example, wear dreadlocks or to adopt a Jafaican accent: it’s simply that doing so makes a white person look and sound ridiculous.
I do very much agree that parts of black culture are often copied by the white majority, but I also of course maintain that calling it appropriation is dimwitted nonsense.
There are certain times though where there can be other reasons why it might be a good idea for white people not to, for example, wear dreadlocks or to adopt a Jafaican accent: it’s simply that doing so makes a white person look and sound ridiculous.
Much as I hate to be “that guy”, it’s worth pointing out that FBG was one of Brian May’s.
Actually I did wonder about that after I’d written the comment.
Actually I did wonder about that after I’d written the comment.
Even black men believe big bottoms can go too far. They refer to this as “junk in the trunk.”
Yeah, I still partly stand behind what I’ve said, but on reflection your statements are almost certainly much closer to the truth. Btw, in my limited experience, black culture tends to be inclusive, and in as much as white folks appreciate & even imitate it (perhaps you’d agree that happens in some cases, even if not relevant to butt appreciation) I’d say few regular black folks would decry that as cultural appropriation. (Except maybe in extreme cases)
Much as I hate to be “that guy”, it’s worth pointing out that FBG was one of Brian May’s.
Even black men believe big bottoms can go too far. They refer to this as “junk in the trunk.”
While hardly evidence enough to establish an eternal preference for curviness, ancient fertility statues like the so-called Venus of Willendorf do show a longstanding appreciate for a fuller, or in that case obese, womanly figure. As one more example, there’s also some lewd art from the 18th century–largely anonymous, comic-erotic stuff–that gets cheeky in a big way.
Thanks, left brained of me to only consider textual evidence. Yup, agree there’s much evidence for the eternal preference from fertility statues & other visual arts. Still, when I think of ancient ‘white men’ examples, what first comes to mind is Aphrodite of Knidos , a statue that was innovative both for being of a naked woman, and for being prominently displayed in such a way that viewers could easily see the back as well as the front. It sparked a viral trend for dozens of statues in the ancient world having naked females butts, including ‘Aphrodite Kallipygos’ – literally meaning ‘Aprhodite of the beautiful butt’ . But heres the kicker, as far as I know all those ancient Greek beautiful butts were rather small (Google image some of the names I mentioned to see). So not sure we have disproved black culture being a major reason why big butt appreciation is now such a thing in the anglo-sphere.
I think black culture (and physiology) has contributed–a major reason? Perhaps, but not the reason. Have you looked at any statues of females from ancient India? Many are very curvy, top and bottom.
Exactly, Mac. If you visit Brazil (my country of birth) you’ll realize that irresistible butts were never an exclusively black “property”. There is a long list of ethnical backgrounds (pun intended) featuring rather voluptuous “bundas” – yeah, that is the Brazilian word for this iconic element of human anatomy. So not only the discussion is idiotic – the premise that good asses are found exclusively in black people is laughable.
Exactly, Mac. If you visit Brazil (my country of birth) you’ll realize that irresistible butts were never an exclusively black “property”. There is a long list of ethnical backgrounds (pun intended) featuring rather voluptuous “bundas” – yeah, that is the Brazilian word for this iconic element of human anatomy. So not only the discussion is idiotic – the premise that good asses are found exclusively in black people is laughable.
Have a look at ‘saucy’ British seaside postcards from the early 20th century.
What about the 1950s fashion for pencil skirts worn with high heels . Was that an import from Lagos or Biafra ? Yes huge arses are prominent feature of black music videos of the last ten years , a period that just happened to see the rise of BLM and black identity politics . Asinine to imagine white men needed the example of Gangsta Rap to look at the female arse .The white female author is surely just having a laugh while trying to keep the Woolf from the door .
If you’re looking for earlier artistic arse representations , check out the Boucher painting of Louis XV’s mistress or , indeed , the Rokeby Venus by Velasquez .
I think black culture (and physiology) has contributed–a major reason? Perhaps, but not the reason. Have you looked at any statues of females from ancient India? Many are very curvy, top and bottom.
Have a look at ‘saucy’ British seaside postcards from the early 20th century.
What about the 1950s fashion for pencil skirts worn with high heels . Was that an import from Lagos or Biafra ? Yes huge arses are prominent feature of black music videos of the last ten years , a period that just happened to see the rise of BLM and black identity politics . Asinine to imagine white men needed the example of Gangsta Rap to look at the female arse .The white female author is surely just having a laugh while trying to keep the Woolf from the door .
If you’re looking for earlier artistic arse representations , check out the Boucher painting of Louis XV’s mistress or , indeed , the Rokeby Venus by Velasquez .
Thanks, left brained of me to only consider textual evidence. Yup, agree there’s much evidence for the eternal preference from fertility statues & other visual arts. Still, when I think of ancient ‘white men’ examples, what first comes to mind is Aphrodite of Knidos , a statue that was innovative both for being of a naked woman, and for being prominently displayed in such a way that viewers could easily see the back as well as the front. It sparked a viral trend for dozens of statues in the ancient world having naked females butts, including ‘Aphrodite Kallipygos’ – literally meaning ‘Aprhodite of the beautiful butt’ . But heres the kicker, as far as I know all those ancient Greek beautiful butts were rather small (Google image some of the names I mentioned to see). So not sure we have disproved black culture being a major reason why big butt appreciation is now such a thing in the anglo-sphere.
If it really does turn out that black men have legitimised a previously-inadmissible preference for the female behind amongst straight white men, then I’ll happily thank them all. It is vanishingly unlikely that this is actually true though. It hasn’t come up before simply because polite society has excluded for many years the general subject of what men find attractive in women. The issue has emerged now because the intersectional hierarchical analysis to which every social issue must be subject these days has deemed it unacceptable that black men’s preferences should be forced into hiding in the manner that was just fine when it was men generally.
One personal anecdote is that I knew an Irish publican many years ago who was entirely unapologetic about the fact that he liked an arse at least three feet wide on a woman. I’d also cite the reference to the Queen song Fat Bottomed Girls as some sort of evidence, but I’m not sure we can be confident that Freddie Mercury’s heart was really in it. 😉
While hardly evidence enough to establish an eternal preference for curviness, ancient fertility statues like the so-called Venus of Willendorf do show a longstanding appreciate for a fuller, or in that case obese, womanly figure. As one more example, there’s also some lewd art from the 18th century–largely anonymous, comic-erotic stuff–that gets cheeky in a big way.
Yep. The problem is that exactly this kind of argument is made by academics in every single English, Sociology, Black Studies, Anthropology, Women’s Studies department in the Anglosphere, every single day of the year. Humanities and social science students get a drip feed rolling version of this story…..and I’m sure the BBC will pick up the book, round up some ‘experts’ and present an even more ‘digested’ version….. It makes me want to weep.
Great summary. I’d only ‘deviate’ slightly in saying that whilst i agree about breast size, it’s more about proportionality for me. I find nothing more off-putting than hugely oversized (and often false) breasts on a slim woman. If a similar woman has proportionate breasts, she wins every time.
On the general theme, the book in question reminds me of one of those spoof scientific papers submitted by naughty researchers with a risible thesis to see if the journal will be taken in by it enough to publish it.
I hear what you’re saying, though I don’t mind huge fake tits on a woman simply because they are usually also well shaped. It’s when gravity gets hold of them after a certain age that they start to be a issue, and I understand why so many women opt to have that problem sorted out surgically when the need arises.
On the second part yes, it sounds as if this book could have been bashed out by an automatic postmodernism generator.
I hear what you’re saying, though I don’t mind huge fake tits on a woman simply because they are usually also well shaped. It’s when gravity gets hold of them after a certain age that they start to be a issue, and I understand why so many women opt to have that problem sorted out surgically when the need arises.
On the second part yes, it sounds as if this book could have been bashed out by an automatic postmodernism generator.
Clearly, Radke has never heard the term Rubenesque.
It seems to me that according to this logic if, as a white guy, you like a big bum, you’re a racist for appropriating the black male gaze. Prefer a smaller bot, such as those in Carry On films and 70s UK sitcoms, then you’re reinforcing ideas of white beauty … and guess what that makes you?
“What is also true about the idiotic nature of public debate these days is that if it had actually emerged as a white guy preference, the social justice agenda wouldn’t be talking about cultural appropriation at this point, it’d be boring on about rape culture, objectification and the apparent aggression and threat that supposedly constitutes the male gaze.”
You are quite right that the liberal attitude is to give anything regarded as black culture a free pass. I well remember my wife turning off the car radio when some misogynistic black rap was broadcast including the n word to the disgruntlement of my youngest son. The equivalent would not have been acceptable to broadcasters from a white singer.
What is particularly ironic is that according to Dr Thomas Sowell as set out in Black Rednecks and White Liberals US black culture is in fact derived from the cracker culture of Southern whites. In fact a wholesale appropriation of a culture that has done blacks no good at all.
Ah, you’ve read that book too. I’m a great fan of Tom Sowell, but I must say I am not much persuaded by the hypothesis that modern urban black culture derives from an archaic ango-saxon/celtic tradition that, for some odd reason, has died out everywhere else. That said, it is obviously correct that the phrase “black culture” in this context doesn’t include Africans generally or many south American and Caribbean groups. It is specific to the blacks of the USA, so there is clearly something in the argument.
I was amazed and entertained though by the stories in the book that gave examples of what that culture was really like in the pre-modern British Isles – that part I found both plausible and horrifying in equal measure. I think many people today could do with understanding the extent of casual brutality that applied to life back then, because way too many people seem to think everyone was a well-fed, rosy-cheeked peasant in possession of a set of social attitudes that would get them a job in the BBC’s HR department today.
The truth would shock them.
Yes, I took it as an interesting and plausible theory rather than settled truth. Unfortunately, those with the ethnographic skill-set to investigate further are likely to be primed by their ideological preconceptions to look the other way from any confirmatory evidence. It does seem likely that Southern black culture would be influenced by southern white culture even if the origin of that southern white culture’s own origin in the peripheral peoples of the UK might be more difficult to establish.
Yes, I took it as an interesting and plausible theory rather than settled truth. Unfortunately, those with the ethnographic skill-set to investigate further are likely to be primed by their ideological preconceptions to look the other way from any confirmatory evidence. It does seem likely that Southern black culture would be influenced by southern white culture even if the origin of that southern white culture’s own origin in the peripheral peoples of the UK might be more difficult to establish.
Ah, you’ve read that book too. I’m a great fan of Tom Sowell, but I must say I am not much persuaded by the hypothesis that modern urban black culture derives from an archaic ango-saxon/celtic tradition that, for some odd reason, has died out everywhere else. That said, it is obviously correct that the phrase “black culture” in this context doesn’t include Africans generally or many south American and Caribbean groups. It is specific to the blacks of the USA, so there is clearly something in the argument.
I was amazed and entertained though by the stories in the book that gave examples of what that culture was really like in the pre-modern British Isles – that part I found both plausible and horrifying in equal measure. I think many people today could do with understanding the extent of casual brutality that applied to life back then, because way too many people seem to think everyone was a well-fed, rosy-cheeked peasant in possession of a set of social attitudes that would get them a job in the BBC’s HR department today.
The truth would shock them.
Hmm, a man after my own heart. I shared your reaction, but then struggled to think of any ancient evidence that we white men have indeed had such an eternal preference. Another point to consider is that in the colonial era white men allegedly tried to universalise the missionary position to rest of world. Sounds like both you and me are grateful that the black counter evangelists were more successful!
(Ok the missionary position story is probably largely false, based on erroreous asserstions by Alfred Kinsey etc, but still ..)
Yep. The problem is that exactly this kind of argument is made by academics in every single English, Sociology, Black Studies, Anthropology, Women’s Studies department in the Anglosphere, every single day of the year. Humanities and social science students get a drip feed rolling version of this story…..and I’m sure the BBC will pick up the book, round up some ‘experts’ and present an even more ‘digested’ version….. It makes me want to weep.
Great summary. I’d only ‘deviate’ slightly in saying that whilst i agree about breast size, it’s more about proportionality for me. I find nothing more off-putting than hugely oversized (and often false) breasts on a slim woman. If a similar woman has proportionate breasts, she wins every time.
On the general theme, the book in question reminds me of one of those spoof scientific papers submitted by naughty researchers with a risible thesis to see if the journal will be taken in by it enough to publish it.
Clearly, Radke has never heard the term Rubenesque.
It seems to me that according to this logic if, as a white guy, you like a big bum, you’re a racist for appropriating the black male gaze. Prefer a smaller bot, such as those in Carry On films and 70s UK sitcoms, then you’re reinforcing ideas of white beauty … and guess what that makes you?
“What is also true about the idiotic nature of public debate these days is that if it had actually emerged as a white guy preference, the social justice agenda wouldn’t be talking about cultural appropriation at this point, it’d be boring on about rape culture, objectification and the apparent aggression and threat that supposedly constitutes the male gaze.”
You are quite right that the liberal attitude is to give anything regarded as black culture a free pass. I well remember my wife turning off the car radio when some misogynistic black rap was broadcast including the n word to the disgruntlement of my youngest son. The equivalent would not have been acceptable to broadcasters from a white singer.
What is particularly ironic is that according to Dr Thomas Sowell as set out in Black Rednecks and White Liberals US black culture is in fact derived from the cracker culture of Southern whites. In fact a wholesale appropriation of a culture that has done blacks no good at all.
“Among the scholars and experts quoted by Radke on this front is one who asserts that the contemporary appreciation of butts by the wider male population is “coming from Black male desire. Straight-up, point-blank. It’s only through Black males and their gaze that white men are starting to take notice”.”
The fallacy is pretty obvious surely? The argument presupposes that white men never possessed such an appreciation until they realised that black men possessed it. Leaving aside the fair point that even if this were true there would be nothing wrong with it, surely the presumption is clearly idiotic?
How can anyone imagine they know this about all white men? That white men can be “deemed” never to include any individuals who have that particular aesthetic or sexual preference? Anyone taking this idea seriously is so stupid that they disqualify themselves from inclusion in civilised debate, not merely because the generalisation is so obviously ridiculous, but because it is also racist. And by that I mean racist in the real sense, not that daft only-white-people-can-be-racist sense that is lazily trotted out by the usual suspects on a routine basis.
Speaking from personal preference, I do say that a nicely shaped bottom on a woman is considerably more important than, say, breast size, from an aesthetic perspective. (b**b size is the least important aspect of a woman’s appearance as far as I’m concerned, pretty much everything else makes more of a difference). While that’s not quite the same as saying I like a big booty in the specific sense referred to in the article, it is nonetheless true that this is a preference I’ve had for far longer than the recent emergence of a general preference amongst black guys. But even if it wasn’t and I’d never thought about it until watching R&B videos, why would that be a problem?
Either way thought the truth is almost certainly this: loads of white guys have had such a preference for all of time, it’s just that it never became the centre of yet another identity politics circus, that’s all. What is also true about the idiotic nature of public debate these days is that if it had actually emerged as a white guy preference, the social justice agenda wouldn’t be talking about cultural appropriation at this point, it’d be boring on about rape culture, objectification and the apparent aggression and threat that supposedly constitutes the male gaze.
Remember the Queen song – Fat bottomed Girls ?
Butts are fun. Let’s keep them that way.
Or Spinal Tap’s seminal “Big Bottoms”?
“If the shoe fits…”
So are breasts ‘fun’. All the nicknames for them in English are comical. ‘Bazookas’, ‘Wanfers’ (one for each hand – Glasgow argot), norks, ‘wallopers’, ‘wobblers’, ‘boobies’, ‘jugs’ and various others I’ve now forgotten.
What used to intrigue me, though, was the seeming white, male American preference for ‘shapely ankles’. Well, each to his/her own, I suppose.
A chap I once knew explained his prolonged interest in a passing middle-aged woman on the grounds of her ‘attractively matronly bottom’. Lots of deep currents there, I thought.
Or Spinal Tap’s seminal “Big Bottoms”?
“If the shoe fits…”
So are breasts ‘fun’. All the nicknames for them in English are comical. ‘Bazookas’, ‘Wanfers’ (one for each hand – Glasgow argot), norks, ‘wallopers’, ‘wobblers’, ‘boobies’, ‘jugs’ and various others I’ve now forgotten.
What used to intrigue me, though, was the seeming white, male American preference for ‘shapely ankles’. Well, each to his/her own, I suppose.
A chap I once knew explained his prolonged interest in a passing middle-aged woman on the grounds of her ‘attractively matronly bottom’. Lots of deep currents there, I thought.
Remember the Queen song – Fat bottomed Girls ?
Butts are fun. Let’s keep them that way.
I’d like to propose a New Year’s Resolution for the Unherd editorial team; that any article asking “is this racist” goes STRAIGHT in the “circular file”, never to be heard of again.
I’m pretty sure the Unherd editorial team writes the headlines, not the authors themselves.
Then maybe it’s those editors who should file themselves. I left the question mark off to avoid a Betteridge’s Law violation
Then maybe it’s those editors who should file themselves. I left the question mark off to avoid a Betteridge’s Law violation
In fairness, the article clearly argues for a conclusion along those lines anyway.
Actually, I’ve got passed the “Dear God!!” stage and I’m actually enjoying them now. I look forward to the next thing, but I did have b”ms on my list of things that would eventually be appropriated for black people only. I think large lips will be the next thing, although, I must confess, some of these collagen enhanced monstrosities do deserve to be mocked.
I’m pretty sure the Unherd editorial team writes the headlines, not the authors themselves.
In fairness, the article clearly argues for a conclusion along those lines anyway.
Actually, I’ve got passed the “Dear God!!” stage and I’m actually enjoying them now. I look forward to the next thing, but I did have b”ms on my list of things that would eventually be appropriated for black people only. I think large lips will be the next thing, although, I must confess, some of these collagen enhanced monstrosities do deserve to be mocked.
I’d like to propose a New Year’s Resolution for the Unherd editorial team; that any article asking “is this racist” goes STRAIGHT in the “circular file”, never to be heard of again.
Ok…50 yr old white guy here. For the sake of setting the record straight, I am gonna take the risk of being crude.
I have NEVER known ANY man of ANY race at ANY time that did not appreciate a nice butt. Been out with guys of all races at different stages of my life, from my teen years until today. Never have I ever heard any man of any race and any time not appreciate a nice butt that walked by.
Men like women’s bodies, we just do. But rear ends are like boobs, they have to fit the whole package. Huge boobs are not always appealing and neither are big round butts. On the other hand, if they are proportional and fit the type of figure that a woman has, then that can be fine. Nobody wants to see Marlyn Monroe’s boobs or butt on Emma Watson. Then again, Beyonce would not be Beyonce if she had Twiggy’s boobs and butt.
Given that I was a teen in the late 70’s and 80’s, and my friends and I, who were largely, though not exclusively, white, made more than a few observations on butts of butts of women of all races while sitting at the mall or driving along the beach, I hardly think that the capacity to appreciate a nice backside, from cute heart shaped ones to bodacious ones, was ever distinguished by race.
“Nobody wants to see Marlyn Monroe’s boobs or butt on Emma Watson.”
No?
No!
I’m not even sure I want to see Emma Watson’s boobs and butt on Emma Watson.
Ungallant sir!
Agreed. She is quite tedious and seems to exist to take the fun out of everything.
Ungallant sir!
Agreed. She is quite tedious and seems to exist to take the fun out of everything.
No!
I’m not even sure I want to see Emma Watson’s boobs and butt on Emma Watson.
I dont think that’s the point. I think it is that black men own the copyright on that appreciation. Maybe this prefatory to some patent troll sueing big media .
Not wanting to be pedantic, but I will anyway ! I’m curious how a 50 year old ( born 1973/4) could be a teenager in the late 70s
Only curious because I was born in 1969 ( 53 years old) and I wasn’t a teenager then
“Nobody wants to see Marlyn Monroe’s boobs or butt on Emma Watson.”
No?
I dont think that’s the point. I think it is that black men own the copyright on that appreciation. Maybe this prefatory to some patent troll sueing big media .
Not wanting to be pedantic, but I will anyway ! I’m curious how a 50 year old ( born 1973/4) could be a teenager in the late 70s
Only curious because I was born in 1969 ( 53 years old) and I wasn’t a teenager then
Ok…50 yr old white guy here. For the sake of setting the record straight, I am gonna take the risk of being crude.
I have NEVER known ANY man of ANY race at ANY time that did not appreciate a nice butt. Been out with guys of all races at different stages of my life, from my teen years until today. Never have I ever heard any man of any race and any time not appreciate a nice butt that walked by.
Men like women’s bodies, we just do. But rear ends are like boobs, they have to fit the whole package. Huge boobs are not always appealing and neither are big round butts. On the other hand, if they are proportional and fit the type of figure that a woman has, then that can be fine. Nobody wants to see Marlyn Monroe’s boobs or butt on Emma Watson. Then again, Beyonce would not be Beyonce if she had Twiggy’s boobs and butt.
Given that I was a teen in the late 70’s and 80’s, and my friends and I, who were largely, though not exclusively, white, made more than a few observations on butts of butts of women of all races while sitting at the mall or driving along the beach, I hardly think that the capacity to appreciate a nice backside, from cute heart shaped ones to bodacious ones, was ever distinguished by race.
Hot take. Pear shaped women existed in the West since the dawn of time too, this is not an exclusively ‘black’ thing. It’s just that Western men’s historical (and general) preference was boobs (sorry to be crass but taking a woman from the front) instead of bottoms (take a woman from behind) which is why up until we were colonised by black rap culture the Western mainstream we didn’t obsess about it in the same way as we do now.
Also, it’s interesting how we ‘never’ talk about the incessant cultural appropriation of Western culture by other nations. To name a few, African women chemically straighten their hair, regularly dye it blonde and bleaching agents for the skin have been used for decades. Nose surgery for a more desired ‘western’ nose is hugely popular and when not available where do you think the obsession with makeup contouring to slimline heavier or wider features came from? Eyelid widening, jaw reduction and rhinoplasty surgery are all the top selling surgeries in Asian countries to this day – and guess who they all want their features to look more like?
Even the dreadlocks cultural appropriation myth has been thoroughly debunked multiple times as we have graves of Vikings and Eastern Europeans who wore them for centuries, and Indian tribes who have always worn dreadlocks and still do to this day. It’s just what happens to hair if you don’t wash it and twiddle it around a bit.
I’m so tired of this rubbish.
I share your fatigue with this utter nonsense as well as your assertions that Western (European) culture has been appropriated by others. Look at clothing! I have seen Adidas trainers, a German company, worn in Sub-Saharan Africa and India. Indians and Pakistanis love cricket, an English sport and the whole world seems to go gaga over football, another English invention. Virtually all the modern technology that we use today was invented in the West: trains, cars, aeroplanes, washing machines, radio, television, computers, telephones, air conditioning etc. which in turn were based on previous Western developments that have been taken to every corner of the world. A few days ago, I reread a short story by Rudyard Kipling, and he wrote about the British bringing the railroad to India. That system of tracks is still used today, no matter what the “writers” at “The Guardian” claim in their revisionist and hateful outpourings.
I had never considered the creeping influence of black rap culture a form of colonisation, but that’s really what it is, and it’s important to call it out!
Didn’t you know that Indians playing cricket is because of colonialism? Even if they’re good at it. And golf balls are racist, at least according to some hopeless balloon at St Andrews University.
As for rap, and its dreadful offspring of modern R&B, it’s been unlistenable for over two decades. Why it has become so popular escapes me.
Does that mean that polo shows our successful colonisation (popularly equating to “subjugation”) by the Mideast?
Ha ha! Good example. Sadly, it means we must have appropriated it. Them’s the rules in critical theory world.
Ha ha! Good example. Sadly, it means we must have appropriated it. Them’s the rules in critical theory world.
Does that mean that polo shows our successful colonisation (popularly equating to “subjugation”) by the Mideast?
Didn’t you know that Indians playing cricket is because of colonialism? Even if they’re good at it. And golf balls are racist, at least according to some hopeless balloon at St Andrews University.
As for rap, and its dreadful offspring of modern R&B, it’s been unlistenable for over two decades. Why it has become so popular escapes me.
the incessant cultural appropriation of Western culture by other nations
Yes, but you must remember that the only reason that they do this is because they have been brain-washed into believing that the Western appearance is the highest standard of beauty. Of course, when Western people do this it is because they are stealing non-Western ideas. It easy to remember – whatever you do, if you are Western and white, you are wrong and racist. Simple.
Breath of fresh air, especially re. dreadlocks. Good on ya mate, keep on keeping on, they’ll have to get tired/bored eventually…
Thanks for that – didn’t know about the dreadlocks thing.
I share your fatigue with this utter nonsense as well as your assertions that Western (European) culture has been appropriated by others. Look at clothing! I have seen Adidas trainers, a German company, worn in Sub-Saharan Africa and India. Indians and Pakistanis love cricket, an English sport and the whole world seems to go gaga over football, another English invention. Virtually all the modern technology that we use today was invented in the West: trains, cars, aeroplanes, washing machines, radio, television, computers, telephones, air conditioning etc. which in turn were based on previous Western developments that have been taken to every corner of the world. A few days ago, I reread a short story by Rudyard Kipling, and he wrote about the British bringing the railroad to India. That system of tracks is still used today, no matter what the “writers” at “The Guardian” claim in their revisionist and hateful outpourings.
I had never considered the creeping influence of black rap culture a form of colonisation, but that’s really what it is, and it’s important to call it out!
the incessant cultural appropriation of Western culture by other nations
Yes, but you must remember that the only reason that they do this is because they have been brain-washed into believing that the Western appearance is the highest standard of beauty. Of course, when Western people do this it is because they are stealing non-Western ideas. It easy to remember – whatever you do, if you are Western and white, you are wrong and racist. Simple.
Breath of fresh air, especially re. dreadlocks. Good on ya mate, keep on keeping on, they’ll have to get tired/bored eventually…
Thanks for that – didn’t know about the dreadlocks thing.
Hot take. Pear shaped women existed in the West since the dawn of time too, this is not an exclusively ‘black’ thing. It’s just that Western men’s historical (and general) preference was boobs (sorry to be crass but taking a woman from the front) instead of bottoms (take a woman from behind) which is why up until we were colonised by black rap culture the Western mainstream we didn’t obsess about it in the same way as we do now.
Also, it’s interesting how we ‘never’ talk about the incessant cultural appropriation of Western culture by other nations. To name a few, African women chemically straighten their hair, regularly dye it blonde and bleaching agents for the skin have been used for decades. Nose surgery for a more desired ‘western’ nose is hugely popular and when not available where do you think the obsession with makeup contouring to slimline heavier or wider features came from? Eyelid widening, jaw reduction and rhinoplasty surgery are all the top selling surgeries in Asian countries to this day – and guess who they all want their features to look more like?
Even the dreadlocks cultural appropriation myth has been thoroughly debunked multiple times as we have graves of Vikings and Eastern Europeans who wore them for centuries, and Indian tribes who have always worn dreadlocks and still do to this day. It’s just what happens to hair if you don’t wash it and twiddle it around a bit.
I’m so tired of this rubbish.
One of those occasions when one wishes Unherd was better illustrated, purely to allow the matter to be considered from every angle, of course.
Maybe a digital commons version of the 18th Century gawkers taking their measurements?
Maybe a digital commons version of the 18th Century gawkers taking their measurements?
One of those occasions when one wishes Unherd was better illustrated, purely to allow the matter to be considered from every angle, of course.
There’s no end to “Theory” or projection which Theory essentially is, a mental illness.
There’s no end to “Theory” or projection which Theory essentially is, a mental illness.
Ho hum. Problem is I just can’t get beyond the picture. A vanishingly small quantity of women have this smooth skinned, small waist, gently morphing into a a perfect pear shaped butt and slimmish legs. What they have are large lumpy, dimply, wobbly butts and thighs that are usually pretty unsightly and very likely unhealthy.
You’re going to get in trouble for saying that.
Unlike men, who tend to sport their lumpy, dimply, wobbly, fat junk right up front.
along with their manboobs.
along with their manboobs.
Unfortunately, because of Kim K. (who’s smallish butt has morphed into a big beautiful butt by whatever injection is popular in her crowd) became a fashion icon… thereby influencing many “females” (young and old) into not minding their big butts, or wanting a bigger butt. Now when we see big butts, some of which are only FAT butts, we wonder… how? It is difficult to see young kids with not only BIG butts, but also FAT bodies bulging out all over with their lycra holding it all in.
The question about the BUTT… is it natural big, fat or created?
Aye. Far fewer of the plump, natural variety wielded by Monroe or West. The removal of spanx and other hold-it-together products can be far too revealing.
Aye. Far fewer of the plump, natural variety wielded by Monroe or West. The removal of spanx and other hold-it-together products can be far too revealing.
Numbers never affected preferences, Lesley. Likely never will.
You’re going to get in trouble for saying that.
Unlike men, who tend to sport their lumpy, dimply, wobbly, fat junk right up front.
Unfortunately, because of Kim K. (who’s smallish butt has morphed into a big beautiful butt by whatever injection is popular in her crowd) became a fashion icon… thereby influencing many “females” (young and old) into not minding their big butts, or wanting a bigger butt. Now when we see big butts, some of which are only FAT butts, we wonder… how? It is difficult to see young kids with not only BIG butts, but also FAT bodies bulging out all over with their lycra holding it all in.
The question about the BUTT… is it natural big, fat or created?
Numbers never affected preferences, Lesley. Likely never will.
Ho hum. Problem is I just can’t get beyond the picture. A vanishingly small quantity of women have this smooth skinned, small waist, gently morphing into a a perfect pear shaped butt and slimmish legs. What they have are large lumpy, dimply, wobbly butts and thighs that are usually pretty unsightly and very likely unhealthy.
If that’s true then Southern Europeans and Latin Americans are incredibly racist. Does that mean that the fixation on big breasts is a symptom of white supremacy? I’m asking for a friend. What if you like big breasts and big buts? Personally, I think men who like extremely skinny women should have their heads checked and should get out of the gene pool.
Deep down they like boys.
Yes! That’s what I think too!
Yes! That’s what I think too!
Historically at least, such a preference was genetically self correcting.
Deep down they like boys.
Historically at least, such a preference was genetically self correcting.
If that’s true then Southern Europeans and Latin Americans are incredibly racist. Does that mean that the fixation on big breasts is a symptom of white supremacy? I’m asking for a friend. What if you like big breasts and big buts? Personally, I think men who like extremely skinny women should have their heads checked and should get out of the gene pool.
big butts can be had artificially and it can be traced to kardashian who had a brazilin butt lift in which all body fat was transferred into her backside. photoshop makes it look somewhat okay but actual photos taken from behind look absolutely hideous. she has contributed nothing but trash to american culture.
big butts can be had artificially and it can be traced to kardashian who had a brazilin butt lift in which all body fat was transferred into her backside. photoshop makes it look somewhat okay but actual photos taken from behind look absolutely hideous. she has contributed nothing but trash to american culture.
Very tricky. Is it misogyny not to like them?
Very tricky. Is it misogyny not to like them?
Ah, racism. Is there anything it can’t do?
It’s the explanation and excuse for everything today from unemployment, drugs, poor school performance and other social ills to serious crime! Black on black murder? It’s the result of white racism, of course. Black on white murder? The oppressed are fighting back against their racist oppressors! We live in troubling times, and many of the troubles and difficulties are caused by virtue-signalling progressives who surely feel that they will never be personally affected. However, every revolution eats its children–sooner or later!
A gift taht keeps on giving.
It’s the explanation and excuse for everything today from unemployment, drugs, poor school performance and other social ills to serious crime! Black on black murder? It’s the result of white racism, of course. Black on white murder? The oppressed are fighting back against their racist oppressors! We live in troubling times, and many of the troubles and difficulties are caused by virtue-signalling progressives who surely feel that they will never be personally affected. However, every revolution eats its children–sooner or later!
A gift taht keeps on giving.
Ah, racism. Is there anything it can’t do?
“Butt for the Grace of God: Worshipping the Female Posterior in an Asinine Age”. Nowadays I think that could be a good satirical article, or even one that takes itself too seriously.
Incidentally: I like ’em, not gonna lie. However, what a flabby reductionism to assign ownership by race just because a more generous proportion of one group has greater physical and historical weight to drag. Should the less common, non-stereotypical black woman with a tiny heinie feel that she’s trespassed on a white woman’s backyard?
There’s probably something serious, perhaps even insightful that can be gleaned through a clever rear view, but maybe we should just remove our collective nose from the dankest cracks of our society, at least to breathe for a while before plunging back in. All half-assed jokes intended.
Clever 🙂
Clever 🙂
“Butt for the Grace of God: Worshipping the Female Posterior in an Asinine Age”. Nowadays I think that could be a good satirical article, or even one that takes itself too seriously.
Incidentally: I like ’em, not gonna lie. However, what a flabby reductionism to assign ownership by race just because a more generous proportion of one group has greater physical and historical weight to drag. Should the less common, non-stereotypical black woman with a tiny heinie feel that she’s trespassed on a white woman’s backyard?
There’s probably something serious, perhaps even insightful that can be gleaned through a clever rear view, but maybe we should just remove our collective nose from the dankest cracks of our society, at least to breathe for a while before plunging back in. All half-assed jokes intended.
Maybe framing the discourse in terms of white and black – ignoring Asians (60% of Worlds pop.) – is a bit racist.
Maybe framing the discourse in terms of white and black – ignoring Asians (60% of Worlds pop.) – is a bit racist.
….“coming from Black male desire. Straight-up, point-blank. It’s only through Black males and their gaze that white men are starting to take notice”. Yawn. Not I, you can keep the freakishly misshapen,
almost alien-like so-called ‘Black’ butt. But then we live in a world where things get coveted just because it’s Depeche Mode… You might “Just can’t get enough” but it’ll never be my Personal Jesus
….“coming from Black male desire. Straight-up, point-blank. It’s only through Black males and their gaze that white men are starting to take notice”. Yawn. Not I, you can keep the freakishly misshapen,
almost alien-like so-called ‘Black’ butt. But then we live in a world where things get coveted just because it’s Depeche Mode… You might “Just can’t get enough” but it’ll never be my Personal Jesus
Brings to mind that famous Arab* song, “there is a boy across the river with a bottom like a peach, but ALAS I cannot swim”……
(* Some say British Army.)
Oh no! Not the British army? You swine.
Actually, I think the song originates in Afghanistan.
Do you know the rest of it?
Yes, after the discovery of the under 12 year old boy legal abuse there, never of course mentioned as it is Islamophobic…
Not Snowball of Northern Ireland fame?
Do you know the rest of it?
Yes, after the discovery of the under 12 year old boy legal abuse there, never of course mentioned as it is Islamophobic…
Not Snowball of Northern Ireland fame?
what? all yellow and furry?
Sadly I can’t remember the rest of it, but seem to recall the words ‘smooth and tight’ whatever that might mean.
Sadly I can’t remember the rest of it, but seem to recall the words ‘smooth and tight’ whatever that might mean.
Oh no! Not the British army? You swine.
Actually, I think the song originates in Afghanistan.
what? all yellow and furry?
Brings to mind that famous Arab* song, “there is a boy across the river with a bottom like a peach, but ALAS I cannot swim”……
(* Some say British Army.)
Personally I cant abide great fat, orange peel, bulbous bums on women and the tree trunks for legs that inevitably sit under them.
It speaks of gluttony and a lack of self discipline and self care.
Personally I cant abide great fat, orange peel, bulbous bums on women and the tree trunks for legs that inevitably sit under them.
It speaks of gluttony and a lack of self discipline and self care.
Excellent. This was fun!
Yes. “Do these jeans make my bum look big?”
“No, your bum looks big in anything”
….slap!
I think it was on the TV show Scrubs that the white doctor asks his black doctor friend for advice about dating a black woman; his answer was that it’s pretty much the same except when she asks “Do you think my butt looks big?” the correct answer is “Yes”.
Thank you for that ‘Pearl of wisdom’!
Thank you for that ‘Pearl of wisdom’!
“No, your bum looks big in anything”
….slap!
I think it was on the TV show Scrubs that the white doctor asks his black doctor friend for advice about dating a black woman; his answer was that it’s pretty much the same except when she asks “Do you think my butt looks big?” the correct answer is “Yes”.
Yes. “Do these jeans make my bum look big?”
Excellent. This was fun!
Oh gawd. Someone thought it worth spending money on publishing this thing by Radke?
Oh gawd. Someone thought it worth spending money on publishing this thing by Radke?
My own preference is for a well-turned calf and ankle. But then my moral compass and all that goes with it must be a hangover from the Victorian era, passed on down through my conservative family and schooling. Time to cancel myself, once more.
My own preference is for a well-turned calf and ankle. But then my moral compass and all that goes with it must be a hangover from the Victorian era, passed on down through my conservative family and schooling. Time to cancel myself, once more.
Coming soon; a faculty of Booty Studies at Goldsmiths.
Coming soon; a faculty of Booty Studies at Goldsmiths.
With a few changes, bigger words combined with a dense text to enhance obscurity, the article about big asses would be read in a scholarly journal by a dozen academic hermits scattered around the world. I’d like the writer to now turn to the cultural significance of whoopee cushions.
With a few changes, bigger words combined with a dense text to enhance obscurity, the article about big asses would be read in a scholarly journal by a dozen academic hermits scattered around the world. I’d like the writer to now turn to the cultural significance of whoopee cushions.
I consider myself to be a “red-blooded American male”. White, politically right-of-center, at least part southern redneck, and older than I care to admit. And I can say unequivocally that the admiration of the derriere is NOT a “black thing”, nor is it a new thing. I (and others like me) have long admired the “nice round tuchus”, having set this to be an essential physical characteristic throughout my forty-plus years of appreciating the female form, especially during my now-ancient dating days. Likewise, many of my friends are “arse men” rather than “b**b men”, visually inspecting a woman’s posterior first and anterior componentry second or third. All one need to do to prove the white male “love of the bum” is go back to the decades-old garage-calendar pin-up girls and erotically photographed Playboy centerfolds to see that a white female posterior has been and continues to be much appreciated. (And as for twerking, it was around long before Freddie Ross/Big Freedia wiggled his/her ass in into a diaper. We white folk didn’t have a cute name for it back then but we appreciated the movement “during intimacy” nonetheless).
As comedian Rodney Dangerfield famously stated, “I’m an ass man. I know because people keep telling me, “You’re an ass, man!”” Ditto, Rodney. But I, for one, have never been a fan of the BIG butt. Those 1950’s calendar girls had distinctly and proportionally small backsides. Round, tight, and partially exposed, yes. Huge? Not even close. As a white male admirer of derrieres of all creeds and colors (even recognizing and appreciating a nice, well-formed male one), I prefer my “tuchusi” smaller. While they are increasingly difficult to find in women over eighteen, if given a choice, I’ll admire one that is compact, tight, as round as is reasonable, and preferably attached to a lean’ish bodice. That’s personal preference, not racism. Renaissance paintings notwithstanding, the emphasis on bigness seems to be a newer taste, at least among the younger set.
This, perhaps, is what Radke thinks of when she references the “black thing”, as that characteristic is undeniably part of the stereotypical modern young black male physical asset preference list.
Yet, at the end of the day, beauty is indeed in eye of the beholder. I don’t know who discovered the ancient female butt first, whether white, black, or other men. But I’m guessing that all men, of all creeds and races, came to admire the parts of the female body that most turned their respective cranks, butts included.
Come to think of it, Adam was certainly an ass, man.
I consider myself to be a “red-blooded American male”. White, politically right-of-center, at least part southern redneck, and older than I care to admit. And I can say unequivocally that the admiration of the derriere is NOT a “black thing”, nor is it a new thing. I (and others like me) have long admired the “nice round tuchus”, having set this to be an essential physical characteristic throughout my forty-plus years of appreciating the female form, especially during my now-ancient dating days. Likewise, many of my friends are “arse men” rather than “b**b men”, visually inspecting a woman’s posterior first and anterior componentry second or third. All one need to do to prove the white male “love of the bum” is go back to the decades-old garage-calendar pin-up girls and erotically photographed Playboy centerfolds to see that a white female posterior has been and continues to be much appreciated. (And as for twerking, it was around long before Freddie Ross/Big Freedia wiggled his/her ass in into a diaper. We white folk didn’t have a cute name for it back then but we appreciated the movement “during intimacy” nonetheless).
As comedian Rodney Dangerfield famously stated, “I’m an ass man. I know because people keep telling me, “You’re an ass, man!”” Ditto, Rodney. But I, for one, have never been a fan of the BIG butt. Those 1950’s calendar girls had distinctly and proportionally small backsides. Round, tight, and partially exposed, yes. Huge? Not even close. As a white male admirer of derrieres of all creeds and colors (even recognizing and appreciating a nice, well-formed male one), I prefer my “tuchusi” smaller. While they are increasingly difficult to find in women over eighteen, if given a choice, I’ll admire one that is compact, tight, as round as is reasonable, and preferably attached to a lean’ish bodice. That’s personal preference, not racism. Renaissance paintings notwithstanding, the emphasis on bigness seems to be a newer taste, at least among the younger set.
This, perhaps, is what Radke thinks of when she references the “black thing”, as that characteristic is undeniably part of the stereotypical modern young black male physical asset preference list.
Yet, at the end of the day, beauty is indeed in eye of the beholder. I don’t know who discovered the ancient female butt first, whether white, black, or other men. But I’m guessing that all men, of all creeds and races, came to admire the parts of the female body that most turned their respective cranks, butts included.
Come to think of it, Adam was certainly an ass, man.
Studies show that the differential of waist to hip, tiny waist and big hips, is the universally acknowledged evidence of female desirability across all cultures. That large hips are usually accompanied by a large caboose is not a coincidence. The ‘boyish’ figure in fashion is not playing to heterosexual but rather homosexual tastes, gay men dominating fashion in the 20th century being the root of this phenomenon. To look at sex stars in the 20th century is to see a long list of mostly curvy women. Big curvy figures and the big butts they engender are not a black thing but a worldwide preference of heterosexual men.
Studies show that the differential of waist to hip, tiny waist and big hips, is the universally acknowledged evidence of female desirability across all cultures. That large hips are usually accompanied by a large caboose is not a coincidence. The ‘boyish’ figure in fashion is not playing to heterosexual but rather homosexual tastes, gay men dominating fashion in the 20th century being the root of this phenomenon. To look at sex stars in the 20th century is to see a long list of mostly curvy women. Big curvy figures and the big butts they engender are not a black thing but a worldwide preference of heterosexual men.
shouldn’t this article be in Cosmopolitan?
shouldn’t this article be in Cosmopolitan?
‘The book is insistent on this front: butts are a black thing, and liking them is a black male thing, and the appreciation of butts by non-black folks represents a moral error: cultural theft or stolen valour or some potent mix of the two.” What a load of absolute codswallop. The woman who wrote this book needs to have her head examined. But what’s worrying is how readily this garbage penetrates mainstream media
‘The book is insistent on this front: butts are a black thing, and liking them is a black male thing, and the appreciation of butts by non-black folks represents a moral error: cultural theft or stolen valour or some potent mix of the two.” What a load of absolute codswallop. The woman who wrote this book needs to have her head examined. But what’s worrying is how readily this garbage penetrates mainstream media
“The book calls multiple women, including Jennifer Lopez, Kim Kardashian, and Miley Cyrus, to account for their appropriation of butts”
Surely this book is a spoof? Otherwise it’s definitely time to impose a cultural blockade on Americans. They really have lost it, haven’t they?
“The book calls multiple women, including Jennifer Lopez, Kim Kardashian, and Miley Cyrus, to account for their appropriation of butts”
Surely this book is a spoof? Otherwise it’s definitely time to impose a cultural blockade on Americans. They really have lost it, haven’t they?
Can we please desist with “deep dive”? Thank you.
Can we please desist with “deep dive”? Thank you.
“Is it racist to like big butts?”
Two words:
Betteridge’s Law
“Is it racist to like big butts?”
Two words:
Betteridge’s Law
Do white men like big butts? Well, I don’t like scrawny butts but Kardashian-sized butts are a big turn-off. Does that make me a bad person? I’m confused now.
Do white men like big butts? Well, I don’t like scrawny butts but Kardashian-sized butts are a big turn-off. Does that make me a bad person? I’m confused now.
Its seems so obviously absurd a theory. Northern European exhibited obvious desire for such women most of whom had never even seen a black man or had any idea of their preferences. Think of Rubens and those artists and patrons.
Its seems so obviously absurd a theory. Northern European exhibited obvious desire for such women most of whom had never even seen a black man or had any idea of their preferences. Think of Rubens and those artists and patrons.
Butts/Boobs are sacks of fat.
Puritanical disgust. And, actually, no – gluteus maximus
Puritanical disgust. And, actually, no – gluteus maximus
Butts/Boobs are sacks of fat.
Oh, for God’s sake – can’t you find something serious to write about? Yes, black women – that is, before the Western diet kicks in – often have the most delicious backsides. Is is a racial thing? Yes, of course it is. So what?
And what the hell is “cultural appropriation?” I’ll tell you – it’s just One More Thing for the leftist soreheads to carp about in their neverending quest to bring down the West.
I’m having none of it. Get a life.
addendum: If the white Western women want something to worry about, it should be why Western men won’t marry them anymore. Hint: maybe Western gynocentric divorce laws and your attitudes have something to do with it.
Oh, for God’s sake – can’t you find something serious to write about? Yes, black women – that is, before the Western diet kicks in – often have the most delicious backsides. Is is a racial thing? Yes, of course it is. So what?
And what the hell is “cultural appropriation?” I’ll tell you – it’s just One More Thing for the leftist soreheads to carp about in their neverending quest to bring down the West.
I’m having none of it. Get a life.
addendum: If the white Western women want something to worry about, it should be why Western men won’t marry them anymore. Hint: maybe Western gynocentric divorce laws and your attitudes have something to do with it.
I think Ovid writes in the Amores of his preference for an ample female figure over a skinny bag of sticks. Just trying to raise the tone a bit.
I think Ovid writes in the Amores of his preference for an ample female figure over a skinny bag of sticks. Just trying to raise the tone a bit.
Can we have less of this sort of trashy article Unherd? There’s been more and more of it recently and I’m beginning to reconsider my subscription.
Can we have less of this sort of trashy article Unherd? There’s been more and more of it recently and I’m beginning to reconsider my subscription.
Everything is Racist – disnt you know?
Everything is Racist – disnt you know?
My first thought was that it’s ridiculous to imagine a white man would only appreciate a big butt due to influence from black culture. Seems like such an innate preference. But thinking about it, of the various ancient texts that partly celebrate a woman’s beauty (Song of Solomon, etc etc) I can’t think of any that mention butts until after the start of the Colonial era. The phrase most white men (IME) use to appreciate a big butt is PAWG, which is definitely from black culture. They’re a minority, but I’ve heard several white men say they prefer a small butt – but never a black man. Thanks for getting to the bottom of this issue for us Kat. Happy new year y’all!
‘Nigra sum, sed formosa’ from the Song of Solomon is often translated as ‘I am black, but beautiful’. Perhaps a better translation would be ‘I am black, butt beautiful’!
it’s from the kardashian era, no self respecting gen x would use that stupid description.
The phrase most white men (IME) use to appreciate a big butt is PAWG
Never heard of this. I asked a sample of men (i.e. the two presently in my house) if they had heard the acronym before, and they hadn’t.
‘Nigra sum, sed formosa’ from the Song of Solomon is often translated as ‘I am black, but beautiful’. Perhaps a better translation would be ‘I am black, butt beautiful’!
it’s from the kardashian era, no self respecting gen x would use that stupid description.
The phrase most white men (IME) use to appreciate a big butt is PAWG
Never heard of this. I asked a sample of men (i.e. the two presently in my house) if they had heard the acronym before, and they hadn’t.
My first thought was that it’s ridiculous to imagine a white man would only appreciate a big butt due to influence from black culture. Seems like such an innate preference. But thinking about it, of the various ancient texts that partly celebrate a woman’s beauty (Song of Solomon, etc etc) I can’t think of any that mention butts until after the start of the Colonial era. The phrase most white men (IME) use to appreciate a big butt is PAWG, which is definitely from black culture. They’re a minority, but I’ve heard several white men say they prefer a small butt – but never a black man. Thanks for getting to the bottom of this issue for us Kat. Happy new year y’all!
In this part of Scotland, the colloquialism for un gros derriere is a ‘fartan’giesaclue’.
That’s a new one on me, cheers. I’m rather fond of ‘bahookie’ myself!
That’s a new one on me, cheers. I’m rather fond of ‘bahookie’ myself!
In this part of Scotland, the colloquialism for un gros derriere is a ‘fartan’giesaclue’.
The radical left ain’t sending us their best.
Well, of course, Kat Rosenfield plucked this book from the dumpster to twerk it at us. The “radical left” (please!) didn’t “send it”. But(t) Rosenfield’s contempt is well-merited, though, as an NPR fan, I could do without her snide asides. (Snideness: So repulsive, so Karenistic!) Missing, though, from her analysis (is there any way to avoid puns about buns?), as well as from Radke’s is the obvious fact that everyone has a pair of buttocks, and that they all resemble one another — more or less. The erotic appeal of the ass is sexually ambiguous and raises interesting questions about how desire (especially male? or could the same be said of any flavor of sexual identity?) may be distributed not to right or left (radical or otherwise) but along a bell curve. The suggestion that they might be aroused by other men mobilizes males’ gender anxiety and may account for why so many become infuriated to the point of violence by gay men. Are Black males who joyfully affirm their gluteophilia less anxious than White men about their virility? More comfortable with “the gay within”? Will we ever get to the bottom of this?
“Each to his own said the old lady, as she kissed the cow.” Bottoms are like excuses, everyone has one and they come in handy at times. Fundamental. But prosaic.
“Each to his own said the old lady, as she kissed the cow.” Bottoms are like excuses, everyone has one and they come in handy at times. Fundamental. But prosaic.
Well, of course, Kat Rosenfield plucked this book from the dumpster to twerk it at us. The “radical left” (please!) didn’t “send it”. But(t) Rosenfield’s contempt is well-merited, though, as an NPR fan, I could do without her snide asides. (Snideness: So repulsive, so Karenistic!) Missing, though, from her analysis (is there any way to avoid puns about buns?), as well as from Radke’s is the obvious fact that everyone has a pair of buttocks, and that they all resemble one another — more or less. The erotic appeal of the ass is sexually ambiguous and raises interesting questions about how desire (especially male? or could the same be said of any flavor of sexual identity?) may be distributed not to right or left (radical or otherwise) but along a bell curve. The suggestion that they might be aroused by other men mobilizes males’ gender anxiety and may account for why so many become infuriated to the point of violence by gay men. Are Black males who joyfully affirm their gluteophilia less anxious than White men about their virility? More comfortable with “the gay within”? Will we ever get to the bottom of this?
The radical left ain’t sending us their best.
“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.” Booker T Washington 1911
Still true today, though substantial changes are – massive strides have been made towards fairness & equality, no thanks to the aforementioned class, a large chunk of whom are now made up of white people acting out a variation of Muchausen’s By Proxy.
“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.” Booker T Washington 1911
Still true today, though substantial changes are – massive strides have been made towards fairness & equality, no thanks to the aforementioned class, a large chunk of whom are now made up of white people acting out a variation of Muchausen’s By Proxy.
Emphasizing the hips and a woman’s bottom is well captured in portrayals of Elizabeth 1st. The aristocracy made it fashionable during her reign by wearing a wheeled farthingale.
One of the delights of the series “Outlander” is watching Caitriona Balfe wearing similar undergarments when the story moved to France in Season 2 what a performance that would be before getting off in the morning. Though the butt I found most distracting was her co-stars.
Of course, a serious cultural appropriation was under weigh during QE1’s reign. The potato. Apologies to Peru.
Emphasizing the hips and a woman’s bottom is well captured in portrayals of Elizabeth 1st. The aristocracy made it fashionable during her reign by wearing a wheeled farthingale.
One of the delights of the series “Outlander” is watching Caitriona Balfe wearing similar undergarments when the story moved to France in Season 2 what a performance that would be before getting off in the morning. Though the butt I found most distracting was her co-stars.
Of course, a serious cultural appropriation was under weigh during QE1’s reign. The potato. Apologies to Peru.
I never understood the former tabloid obsession with breasts. From my earliest age, I always had a keen eye for a toned female arse – but tbh only if I liked the whole package of the woman anyway – a cute face, a dazzling smile, a twinkle in the eyes, a confident athletic walk, a toned rear, shapely un-veiny hands with long fingers, elegant knees (so wonderfully unlike my big knobbly male ones), toned upper arms, and a certain ratio of rear to waist – well, all those *together* would knock me sideways, and I make no apologies for that. The Kardashians for instance, with their endless narcissism, and dead expressions, I find them repellent. Genuinely repellent. And it’s less about size than about shape and muscular tone and ratio to waist. A straight bloke reacts primarily to a wider pelvis, it’s in the lizard part of our brains. Someone could have massive wobbly cellulite rear, and it’s nothing special tbh. And white women themselves have a wide spectrum of shapes, from small to large and from flabby to toned; and lots of African women are quite skinny, depending on which African country they’re from. The idea that all African women have big butts is itself racist nonsense. If a white bloke said as much, there’d be uproar about that too. And the real turn on is how a woman walks, moves, carries herself – it’s an holistic thing, not an absurd blinkered obsession on body parts, for heaven’s sake. This is totally ridiculous. The woke idiots have run out of micro-aggressions to whine about. And the sheer intolerance of woke black people is instructive.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but in women’s athletics, all lady runners have nicely shaped rear ends. An appreciation of good butts is a good assessment of a woman’s physical fitness. It’s evolutionary. I knew there was a good reason.
Quite agree David – and if memory serves, fit women are better in the boudoir too!
Quite agree David – and if memory serves, fit women are better in the boudoir too!
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but in women’s athletics, all lady runners have nicely shaped rear ends. An appreciation of good butts is a good assessment of a woman’s physical fitness. It’s evolutionary. I knew there was a good reason.
I never understood the former tabloid obsession with breasts. From my earliest age, I always had a keen eye for a toned female arse – but tbh only if I liked the whole package of the woman anyway – a cute face, a dazzling smile, a twinkle in the eyes, a confident athletic walk, a toned rear, shapely un-veiny hands with long fingers, elegant knees (so wonderfully unlike my big knobbly male ones), toned upper arms, and a certain ratio of rear to waist – well, all those *together* would knock me sideways, and I make no apologies for that. The Kardashians for instance, with their endless narcissism, and dead expressions, I find them repellent. Genuinely repellent. And it’s less about size than about shape and muscular tone and ratio to waist. A straight bloke reacts primarily to a wider pelvis, it’s in the lizard part of our brains. Someone could have massive wobbly cellulite rear, and it’s nothing special tbh. And white women themselves have a wide spectrum of shapes, from small to large and from flabby to toned; and lots of African women are quite skinny, depending on which African country they’re from. The idea that all African women have big butts is itself racist nonsense. If a white bloke said as much, there’d be uproar about that too. And the real turn on is how a woman walks, moves, carries herself – it’s an holistic thing, not an absurd blinkered obsession on body parts, for heaven’s sake. This is totally ridiculous. The woke idiots have run out of micro-aggressions to whine about. And the sheer intolerance of woke black people is instructive.
“…from whose name the word “callipygian” is derived”
I had a chum who adopted that moniker.
What did his butt look like?
It was definitely a “she”
It was good.
I’m inherently suspicious of an article that alleges that the book declares that liking butts is racist and then provides no quotes from the book which actually make this point.
4th paragraph.
Nope – the quote from the book in the 4th para is this: [desire for the butt is] “coming from Black male desire. Straight-up, point-blank. It’s only through Black males and their gaze that white men are starting to take notice”.
This is not a statement that ‘liking butts is racist’, it’s a claim about where current admiration for butts in our culture comes from. It may be the set up for a claim that liking butts is racist, but such a claim, if in fact made, is not itself quoted.
(The following sentence in the 4th para – “To paraphrase a popular meme: “Fellas, is it racist to like butts?”” – is the author’s gloss and not a quote from the book).
Nope – the quote from the book in the 4th para is this: [desire for the butt is] “coming from Black male desire. Straight-up, point-blank. It’s only through Black males and their gaze that white men are starting to take notice”.
This is not a statement that ‘liking butts is racist’, it’s a claim about where current admiration for butts in our culture comes from. It may be the set up for a claim that liking butts is racist, but such a claim, if in fact made, is not itself quoted.
(The following sentence in the 4th para – “To paraphrase a popular meme: “Fellas, is it racist to like butts?”” – is the author’s gloss and not a quote from the book).
4th paragraph.
I’m inherently suspicious of an article that alleges that the book declares that liking butts is racist and then provides no quotes from the book which actually make this point.
{more than enough said already}
looking like the back end of a 5 furlong sprinter leaving the stalls for The Kings Stand Stakes is not my idea of a woman’s look…
Stunned to admit I actually read this. Even more I read many comments. My age is catching up me. A book about body parts, indeed.
Benny Hill called…
Why on earth are the comments for this essay subject to ‘special measures’.
It is simply ridiculous and antipathetic to everything England stands for!
All very well, but….
How many angels dance on the head of a pin? Did they ever get to the bottom of that?
Not sure I understand. Did Heather Radke’s butt double in size the first time a black male looked at it with lust? Did she bust out of her trousers or skirt when that happened? Did she have a buy an entire new wardrobe of clothes? Or does someone have to say a magic word like ‘booty’ or murmur ‘junk in the trunk’?
People are always nagging me to tidy the junk in my trunk.
See John Donne’s order of precedence (c.1595)
‘Licence my roving hands and let them go
BEHIND , before, above, between ,below! ‘
Thank goodness there were some blackamores around to tell him what to do
Love it. Excellent article. We need many more articles like this. The comments from the humor-impaired males of the species are icing on the cake.
i’m the opposite sex but find the premise repulsive and insulting.
i’m the opposite sex but find the premise repulsive and insulting.
Love it. Excellent article. We need many more articles like this. The comments from the humor-impaired males of the species are icing on the cake.