In the middle of the night, I am often haunted by the thought of weeds and mould breaking through the parquet floor, of the roof falling in, or the space being populated by pigeons not parishioners. The creeping damp is the vanguard of our demise. Larkin’s poem swirls around my head: “When churches fall completely out of use, what shall we turn them into… a few cathedrals chronically on show… and let the rest rent free to rain and sheep.” Not on my watch, I say to myself defiantly.
But still, the sound of the tide going out on the sea of faith is unmistakable. The results of the 2021 census, announced this week, tell us that we are a minority Christian country, with just 46% self-defining as Christian. The humanists are gleeful. And the treasurer tells me we are again set to lose tens of thousands of pounds next year. Churches in poorer areas may not survive the coming storm. Ones set in the leafy suburbs may be able to reinvent themselves as fancy conference venues — but both will be subject to a kind of death.
Of course, the universal church isn’t in this situation. It remains the largest movement on earth, despite a little local difficulty in this part of the world. It just goes to highlight the woeful parochialism of so much of our media coverage. The narrative of secularisation, and of its inevitability, is linked to that dodgy old Enlightenment idea of progress — which is as much a matter of wilful faith as anything said from the pulpit. Numerically speaking, the 20th century was the Church’s best since its creation. Or is it that “progress” only applies to white Westerners?
Despite the success of the church worldwide, we are not called to be successful. We are called to be faithful. The central image of the Christian faith is of a man being strung up on a cross, mocked for his claims to royal authority. Whatever the outcome of this cosmic interruption, whatever its meaning, triumphalism has little place amongst the detritus of spears and spit that attended His gruesome end. For Christians, victory is claimed in the manner of His failing. A smaller church is not a failed church any more than a satsuma is a failed orange, as one bishop rightly put it.
Generally speaking, however, the leadership of the Church of England is still gripped by the debilitating fear of numerical decline. It nervously responds at every turn with cheesy new initiatives bent on making us relevant and popular. These often have the very opposite of their intended consequences: cathedrals have answered Larkin’s challenge by turning themselves into fun parks of crazy golf or helter skelters. “Please like us,” they plead, desperately, with all the panache (and success rate) of spotty teenagers dousing themselves in cheap aftershave in a bid to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex.
Of course, it’s no good thinking that we have the wrong sort of parishioners. In part, we have to meet people where they are. But nevertheless, our core mission is responding to a deeper seriousness in people. And chumminess with the divine is not the answer. Where the church is failing its parishioners is how thin our offer can so often be. People don’t want weak jokes from the pulpit — they want fire. And too often we have been short-changing people by simply reflecting back to them an undemanding slate of soft-Left progressive values that they already have.
There are three things the church leadership needs to hear: the uppermost among them is to stop being so afraid. “Fear not,” is the message of the Christmas angel. If God is in charge then, ultimately, we cannot fail. If God is not in charge, or does not exist, then we deserve to. We will not be saved by better management, or by a more compelling social media strategy: we will be saved by God or not at all. To say this is not to give us an alibi for inaction or laziness or lack of creativity — simply, to insist that we live or die by our theology.
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SubscribeA top-notch article, and a solid addition to Unherd’s lineup. My thanks to the author. May I add that an unserious church, flitting and floating this way and that depending on errant breezes and currents will not offer anything for those seeking the rock of stability in a world where the land itself shifts shape and position. As someone wise once said, “On this Rock will I build my church.”
Giles has done numerous articles on UnHerd, many on here often attack him for being too left wing.
I agree though I always enjoy his articles, even though I personally don’t believe in religion. Like the author I’m a firm believer in place, community and tradition, any even though I don’t believe in it I can appreciate the morals in the bible have been very important in shaping society for the better
If you believe this – and who could not – then you are a Christian. Love life. Love others.
Matthew 22:37-40 KJVJesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Despite his acknowledgment of the goodness of biblical morals, that doesn’t make him a Christian. Many good people live honorable lives, adhering to the principle of loving your neighbor, but do not believe they need to be redeemed from sin and therefore do not seek the redemption found in Jesus. Christianity is the only religion that picks you vs. you picking it.
Incorrect, that is the behaviour of a Christian, not what ‘makes’ someone a Christian.
Despite his acknowledgment of the goodness of biblical morals, that doesn’t make him a Christian. Many good people live honorable lives, adhering to the principle of loving your neighbor, but do not believe they need to be redeemed from sin and therefore do not seek the redemption found in Jesus. Christianity is the only religion that picks you vs. you picking it.
Incorrect, that is the behaviour of a Christian, not what ‘makes’ someone a Christian.
I appreciate your honesty and your wisdom to know that our common shared morals come from the Bible.
It’s not for everyone, for it is said in Matthew 7:13-14 that the gate is narrow.
Whatever your beliefs, there is something about a church…..I read this somewhere years ago ….
Church- Not Only For Religious Contemplation
A church can be a peaceful place to sit, reflect on life, feel calm or to light a candle and think about other people. No deity, no prayer, just communing with a memory. There is a lot to be said for thinking about other people.
If a church does nothing else, it offers a place of calm in a mad, mad world. Jesus would approve of filling a church with the needy and the unwashed – in fact, he would get out his bowl of water and bathe their feet!
If you believe this – and who could not – then you are a Christian. Love life. Love others.
Matthew 22:37-40 KJVJesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I appreciate your honesty and your wisdom to know that our common shared morals come from the Bible.
It’s not for everyone, for it is said in Matthew 7:13-14 that the gate is narrow.
Whatever your beliefs, there is something about a church…..I read this somewhere years ago ….
Church- Not Only For Religious Contemplation
A church can be a peaceful place to sit, reflect on life, feel calm or to light a candle and think about other people. No deity, no prayer, just communing with a memory. There is a lot to be said for thinking about other people.
If a church does nothing else, it offers a place of calm in a mad, mad world. Jesus would approve of filling a church with the needy and the unwashed – in fact, he would get out his bowl of water and bathe their feet!
I happen to believe that there is a Christian revival going on in this country driven by the growth of dynamic evangelical churches and projects, such as the Alpha course.In Swansea there’s a church in a run-down gospel hall, called Zac’s Place. It describes itself as a church for Rrgamuffins, it clearly believes that the church is the people not the building.
The vicar, the Rev. Sean Stillman arrives on a Harley Davidson. Leather-clad bikers usually make up at least part of the congregation. And alongside them are many men and women grappling with problems, the walking wounded drug addicts, the homeless, those on the margins of society.
Step inside and you won’t find an altar, stained glass windows and orderly rows of pews, just scruffy tables and mismatched chairs. The church also operates as a coffee bar and a soup kitchen, providing a daily breakfast for the city’s rough sleepers. The major attraction on offer is warmth and tolerance for people who might rarely find it elsewhere.
Speaking in a television interview, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, who was born in Swansea, said: “The work at Zac’s Place is, in every way, innovative, courageous and important for the community in general, as well as the Christian community.
How ghastly.
The down and outs, junkies winos who are put of from entering a traditional church are made welcome and receive Jesus’ love. How can you say that’s ghastly? Have you not read the Sermon on the Mount? Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
And did not Jesus command us to “love thy neighbour”?
I’m sure Christ would have approved of Zac’s Place.
A building is not a church. The congregation forms a church.
“The major attraction on offer is warmth and tolerance for people who might rarely find it elsewhere”
Commendable, but I doubt that christianity is central to its attraction. I suspect that this is why Caroline shouted “ghastly” – Harsh but fair.
I read about a man who only attended church services in prison because you got tea and chocolate biscuits. He wasn’t a Christian, but something must have sunk in, because eventually he became one.
Given that it is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that makes someone a Christian, ‘sinking in’ isn’t the point one way or another.
But the Holy Spirit drew him to the tea and biscuits. Small steps. Not all conversions are wham bam road to Damascus moments. It’s still the Holy Spirit at work.
But the Holy Spirit drew him to the tea and biscuits. Small steps. Not all conversions are wham bam road to Damascus moments. It’s still the Holy Spirit at work.
Given that it is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that makes someone a Christian, ‘sinking in’ isn’t the point one way or another.
I read about a man who only attended church services in prison because you got tea and chocolate biscuits. He wasn’t a Christian, but something must have sunk in, because eventually he became one.
“The major attraction on offer is warmth and tolerance for people who might rarely find it elsewhere”
Commendable, but I doubt that christianity is central to its attraction. I suspect that this is why Caroline shouted “ghastly” – Harsh but fair.
The down and outs, junkies winos who are put of from entering a traditional church are made welcome and receive Jesus’ love. How can you say that’s ghastly? Have you not read the Sermon on the Mount? Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
And did not Jesus command us to “love thy neighbour”?
I’m sure Christ would have approved of Zac’s Place.
A building is not a church. The congregation forms a church.
How is that a church ?
It sounds sooo inclusive.
“If you want your church to grow, plant it in the gutter.” Jackie Pullinger.
“If you want your church to grow, plant it in the gutter.” Jackie Pullinger.
That church is the essence of true Christianity. It’s a shame that mankind has created all sorts of rules and regulations that are not proscribed in the Bible, which alienates so many would-be believers.
Prescribed?
Quite! As a Civil Celebrant I follow the family’s wishes for either a bespoke, completely secular ceremony, or one with some religious content. A high proportion choose the latter, usually always including The Lords’s Prayer, but the dec’d remains the focus and their life is both celebrated and mourned…..
Not a few retired vicars offer such ceremonies…..
Prescribed?
Quite! As a Civil Celebrant I follow the family’s wishes for either a bespoke, completely secular ceremony, or one with some religious content. A high proportion choose the latter, usually always including The Lords’s Prayer, but the dec’d remains the focus and their life is both celebrated and mourned…..
Not a few retired vicars offer such ceremonies…..
Alpha does not teach faithful Christianity, as exposited in the Bible.
How so? From what I know about Alpha, it quite close follow the Mere Christianity of CS Lewis (not follow the book, but it’s theological content)
How so? From what I know about Alpha, it quite close follow the Mere Christianity of CS Lewis (not follow the book, but it’s theological content)
How ghastly.
How is that a church ?
It sounds sooo inclusive.
That church is the essence of true Christianity. It’s a shame that mankind has created all sorts of rules and regulations that are not proscribed in the Bible, which alienates so many would-be believers.
Alpha does not teach faithful Christianity, as exposited in the Bible.
Christianity is far from being extinct
“Although some Anglican, Roman Catholic and Methodist church buildings have closed in recent years, this loss has been outweighed by the growth of new Evangelical and Pentecostal church congregations.” The Evangelical Alliance.
Many of these Evangelical churches were planted in deprived areas. Due to religious immigrants, many of whom are evangelical Christians, church attendance in Greater London grew by 16% between 2005 and 2012.
“If you want your church to grow, plant it in the gutter.” Jackie Pullinger.
http://www.urc-eastern.org.uk › church-growth-and-evangelism › 180-church-growth-and-evangelism
You are presumably aware of the fact that “Evangelical and Pentecostal church congregations” were and are headline supporters of Donald Trump?
In America evangelicals disproportionately supported Trump. In the UK, evangelical political allegiance is evenly divided between left and right, and they are notably reluctant – with the exception of a few fringe groups – to comment on politics.
So what ?
And that’s bad? But being headline supporter of Biden/TRudeau….WEF…Chinese lockdowns..covid authoritarians….transgender drag shows for kids……is all perfectly respectable? Trump is an ass…..but the Dem agenda in schools is positively demonic.
Well said. I’d pick a patriotic, God-fearing, loud mouthed ass over a demonic cult every time.
Well said. I’d pick a patriotic, God-fearing, loud mouthed ass over a demonic cult every time.
I believe that Christians of many denominations voted for H.Clinton, and more recently, J.Biden. I find that hard to understand.
The 2016 vote produced three conservative judges for the USSC. Bad men do God’s will too.
Of course–he was the least bad alternative.
How silly – Trump had supporters from all religions and walks of life. In my immediate circle, Jews, Episcopalians, Catholics, Protests of many sects and yes even Muslims supported Trump. Even my Ecuadoran housecleaner surprised me when she piped up and said she voted for Trump…74 million Americans did in the last Presidential election.
In America, we don’t vote for a priest or pastor, we vote for a president.
Many members of the Democrat Party are keen to link Christianity with Far Right extremism. Indeed, this is becoming a fixed point in the liberal narrative at the moment as activist groups seek to force religious organizations to be ‘accepting’ of LGBQT lifestyles and trans ideology e.g. Catholic adoption agencies forced to provide gay couples with children. As a Brit living in the US with no beef in the game, I can honestly say that I see more intolerance coming from Never-Trumpers than I do Trump-supporters. Unlike the vast majority of politicians in DC who are all too quick to excoriate evangelists, Trump made parishioners feel good about themselves again.
Oh so they do have something going for them .
Since the subject wasn’t USian Christianity, isn’t your dragging in Trump a total derailing of the conversation. What is true about US “evangelicals” (often more of a sociological description than theological) is not true about evangelicals in the rest of the world.
In America evangelicals disproportionately supported Trump. In the UK, evangelical political allegiance is evenly divided between left and right, and they are notably reluctant – with the exception of a few fringe groups – to comment on politics.
So what ?
And that’s bad? But being headline supporter of Biden/TRudeau….WEF…Chinese lockdowns..covid authoritarians….transgender drag shows for kids……is all perfectly respectable? Trump is an ass…..but the Dem agenda in schools is positively demonic.
I believe that Christians of many denominations voted for H.Clinton, and more recently, J.Biden. I find that hard to understand.
The 2016 vote produced three conservative judges for the USSC. Bad men do God’s will too.
Of course–he was the least bad alternative.
How silly – Trump had supporters from all religions and walks of life. In my immediate circle, Jews, Episcopalians, Catholics, Protests of many sects and yes even Muslims supported Trump. Even my Ecuadoran housecleaner surprised me when she piped up and said she voted for Trump…74 million Americans did in the last Presidential election.
In America, we don’t vote for a priest or pastor, we vote for a president.
Many members of the Democrat Party are keen to link Christianity with Far Right extremism. Indeed, this is becoming a fixed point in the liberal narrative at the moment as activist groups seek to force religious organizations to be ‘accepting’ of LGBQT lifestyles and trans ideology e.g. Catholic adoption agencies forced to provide gay couples with children. As a Brit living in the US with no beef in the game, I can honestly say that I see more intolerance coming from Never-Trumpers than I do Trump-supporters. Unlike the vast majority of politicians in DC who are all too quick to excoriate evangelists, Trump made parishioners feel good about themselves again.
Oh so they do have something going for them .
Since the subject wasn’t USian Christianity, isn’t your dragging in Trump a total derailing of the conversation. What is true about US “evangelicals” (often more of a sociological description than theological) is not true about evangelicals in the rest of the world.
You are presumably aware of the fact that “Evangelical and Pentecostal church congregations” were and are headline supporters of Donald Trump?
I don’t think Giles is fully representing the content of the Census, actually. It asks people to self-identify in answer to the question, ‘What is your religion?’ That might draw the answer ‘Christian’ both from someone like him, and from someone whose parents were married in a Methodist church 60 years ago but who have never been themselves. Practising Christianity, measured by church attendance, is not in fact in decline according to robust research. From a Bible Society release based on a YouGov survey: ‘Our research in 2018 found that around 10 per cent of the population of England and Wales said they attend church at least monthly, with seven per cent attending weekly. When the survey was repeated in 2022 it found similar results. This runs completely counter to the generally accepted idea that the Church is in serious decline …’ Parts of it are, certainly, including Giles’ part; others are growing.
Giles Exemplifies the decline of the Anglican Church, he lives it, he is it. From Welby down the CofE are missionaries of Secularism, managing to convert the believers to unbelieving. He is a nice guy, I like reading his stuff, but how can he be so un-selfaware?
I have read Giles for many years – in the Guardian approaching 2 decades now he has been on Unherd and this article is one bridge too far
”A smaller church is not a failed church”
”Generally speaking, however, the leadership of the Church of England is still gripped by the debilitating fear of numerical decline.”
What you see in the CofE is Failure. a shrinking Church is a failed Church – It is Nuts to say otherwise.
If the Church’s job is to stop people being turned to Satan, and every year you lost more and more to him – it is no good saying that all that matters is the individual who still believes, that the majority are lost to god is fine, just something that happens – or even more nutty – Giles basically saying God himself must be the one doing it as he is god, so it is not the Clergy’s fault…
The Anglican Church is like the Missionary sent to convert the Headhunters (very horrid picture from Mary’s article – that is appalling to show that picture) becoming one himself instead.
That is Nuts. It is the Church’s Fault. It is by definition of the very concept of failure.
If the Anglicans ran a business……….
Welby and his predecessors back to Victoria took God out of Christianity, and the clergy fallowed the example. It is their fault. They failed at their job of making and keeping people Christians.
Have Welby look in a mirror and ask why people are turning to evil and away from Good – and he should see the reason. That he is not fired, or resign in his disastrous FAILURE shows he is in it for some reason other than for god – or he would step aside and let someone else try, because he is losing more every day.
Attending church doesn’t make someone a Christian – as evidenced by the garbage spoken by many CofE ministers.
Giles Exemplifies the decline of the Anglican Church, he lives it, he is it. From Welby down the CofE are missionaries of Secularism, managing to convert the believers to unbelieving. He is a nice guy, I like reading his stuff, but how can he be so un-selfaware?
I have read Giles for many years – in the Guardian approaching 2 decades now he has been on Unherd and this article is one bridge too far
”A smaller church is not a failed church”
”Generally speaking, however, the leadership of the Church of England is still gripped by the debilitating fear of numerical decline.”
What you see in the CofE is Failure. a shrinking Church is a failed Church – It is Nuts to say otherwise.
If the Church’s job is to stop people being turned to Satan, and every year you lost more and more to him – it is no good saying that all that matters is the individual who still believes, that the majority are lost to god is fine, just something that happens – or even more nutty – Giles basically saying God himself must be the one doing it as he is god, so it is not the Clergy’s fault…
The Anglican Church is like the Missionary sent to convert the Headhunters (very horrid picture from Mary’s article – that is appalling to show that picture) becoming one himself instead.
That is Nuts. It is the Church’s Fault. It is by definition of the very concept of failure.
If the Anglicans ran a business……….
Welby and his predecessors back to Victoria took God out of Christianity, and the clergy fallowed the example. It is their fault. They failed at their job of making and keeping people Christians.
Have Welby look in a mirror and ask why people are turning to evil and away from Good – and he should see the reason. That he is not fired, or resign in his disastrous FAILURE shows he is in it for some reason other than for god – or he would step aside and let someone else try, because he is losing more every day.
Attending church doesn’t make someone a Christian – as evidenced by the garbage spoken by many CofE ministers.
For once I agree almost entirely with Mr Fraser.
I remember when I was aged about 6 or 7 the church changed the words of he Lord’s prayer, to some fan fair, to make it, what they would called to day, more accessible.
At the time I thought why would they want to do this when it has been this way for centuries, why does the church think God needs to be more accessible when he is, well, God and why did they think that dumbing down was key to getting more people into church when all that it does is suggest what you have is not worthwhile.
The way the religious office holders and my teachers lapped it up was probably the beginning if my loss of respect for my elders and authority.
I diverge from the author on one point. He says “When that worldview disappears from sight, secular culture will be walking on little but thin air. Without a meaningful moral story to underpin it, might will be right and power supreme.”
It is not a moral story. God is the whole foundation of morality. Without God all that’s left is semantics and rules for good order.
I completely agree with your last two sentences. I just wish more people would realize what happens when Christianity, and God in general, is pushed aside. The vacuum always gets filled with whoever is the fiercest, mightiest and deadliest of men.
You are not entirely wrong, but what you overlook is that within organised religion the ‘fiercest, mightiest and deadliest of men’ tend to join the clergy.
There are three kinds of clergy in the christian church : the well-meaning but insignificant; those who absolutely know what God is thinking; and those who like to imply that God phones them up for advice.
You are not entirely wrong, but what you overlook is that within organised religion the ‘fiercest, mightiest and deadliest of men’ tend to join the clergy.
There are three kinds of clergy in the christian church : the well-meaning but insignificant; those who absolutely know what God is thinking; and those who like to imply that God phones them up for advice.
I completely agree with your last two sentences. I just wish more people would realize what happens when Christianity, and God in general, is pushed aside. The vacuum always gets filled with whoever is the fiercest, mightiest and deadliest of men.
Giles is surely right. As Pope (St) John Paul II said, the Church should be a Sign of Contradiction. But I was puzzled by:
The central image of the Christian faith is of a man being strung up on a cross, mocked for his claims to royal authority. Whatever the outcome of this cosmic interruption, whatever its meaning, triumphalism has little place amongst the detritus of spears and spit that attended His gruesome end.
Does the Rev Giles not believe in the triumph of the Resurrection?
Of course he does (I think), but the Cross has to come before the Resurrection.
Yes, and the Resurrection afterwards. Otherwise it’s all empty and meaningless
No, not meaningless, but the triumph over death that the sacrifice of Jesus was would never be understood without it.
No, not meaningless, but the triumph over death that the sacrifice of Jesus was would never be understood without it.
Yes, and the Resurrection afterwards. Otherwise it’s all empty and meaningless
Of course he does (I think), but the Cross has to come before the Resurrection.
An embarrassing article trotting out the well worn line that our moral foundations, including such modern notions as human rights, rest on Christianity.
The idea that our moral foundations such as human right rest on Christianity ignores the fact that for much of Christian life there was no such thing as human rights, countless people were persecuted and cruelly punished for their beliefs. It ignores the fact that Christians are equally capable of championing the abolishing of human rights via support for right wing parties as well as their re-instatement despite both holding onto the same magical stories. Though contradictions never seem to have much weight in religious thinking
Anyone familiar with the history of morality will realise that moral beliefs evolve over time with changes to our culture and remain regardless of whether there are supersitious foundations or not.
Giles has done numerous articles on UnHerd, many on here often attack him for being too left wing.
I agree though I always enjoy his articles, even though I personally don’t believe in religion. Like the author I’m a firm believer in place, community and tradition, any even though I don’t believe in it I can appreciate the morals in the bible have been very important in shaping society for the better
I happen to believe that there is a Christian revival going on in this country driven by the growth of dynamic evangelical churches and projects, such as the Alpha course.In Swansea there’s a church in a run-down gospel hall, called Zac’s Place. It describes itself as a church for Rrgamuffins, it clearly believes that the church is the people not the building.
The vicar, the Rev. Sean Stillman arrives on a Harley Davidson. Leather-clad bikers usually make up at least part of the congregation. And alongside them are many men and women grappling with problems, the walking wounded drug addicts, the homeless, those on the margins of society.
Step inside and you won’t find an altar, stained glass windows and orderly rows of pews, just scruffy tables and mismatched chairs. The church also operates as a coffee bar and a soup kitchen, providing a daily breakfast for the city’s rough sleepers. The major attraction on offer is warmth and tolerance for people who might rarely find it elsewhere.
Speaking in a television interview, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, who was born in Swansea, said: “The work at Zac’s Place is, in every way, innovative, courageous and important for the community in general, as well as the Christian community.
Christianity is far from being extinct
“Although some Anglican, Roman Catholic and Methodist church buildings have closed in recent years, this loss has been outweighed by the growth of new Evangelical and Pentecostal church congregations.” The Evangelical Alliance.
Many of these Evangelical churches were planted in deprived areas. Due to religious immigrants, many of whom are evangelical Christians, church attendance in Greater London grew by 16% between 2005 and 2012.
“If you want your church to grow, plant it in the gutter.” Jackie Pullinger.
http://www.urc-eastern.org.uk › church-growth-and-evangelism › 180-church-growth-and-evangelism
I don’t think Giles is fully representing the content of the Census, actually. It asks people to self-identify in answer to the question, ‘What is your religion?’ That might draw the answer ‘Christian’ both from someone like him, and from someone whose parents were married in a Methodist church 60 years ago but who have never been themselves. Practising Christianity, measured by church attendance, is not in fact in decline according to robust research. From a Bible Society release based on a YouGov survey: ‘Our research in 2018 found that around 10 per cent of the population of England and Wales said they attend church at least monthly, with seven per cent attending weekly. When the survey was repeated in 2022 it found similar results. This runs completely counter to the generally accepted idea that the Church is in serious decline …’ Parts of it are, certainly, including Giles’ part; others are growing.
For once I agree almost entirely with Mr Fraser.
I remember when I was aged about 6 or 7 the church changed the words of he Lord’s prayer, to some fan fair, to make it, what they would called to day, more accessible.
At the time I thought why would they want to do this when it has been this way for centuries, why does the church think God needs to be more accessible when he is, well, God and why did they think that dumbing down was key to getting more people into church when all that it does is suggest what you have is not worthwhile.
The way the religious office holders and my teachers lapped it up was probably the beginning if my loss of respect for my elders and authority.
I diverge from the author on one point. He says “When that worldview disappears from sight, secular culture will be walking on little but thin air. Without a meaningful moral story to underpin it, might will be right and power supreme.”
It is not a moral story. God is the whole foundation of morality. Without God all that’s left is semantics and rules for good order.
Giles is surely right. As Pope (St) John Paul II said, the Church should be a Sign of Contradiction. But I was puzzled by:
The central image of the Christian faith is of a man being strung up on a cross, mocked for his claims to royal authority. Whatever the outcome of this cosmic interruption, whatever its meaning, triumphalism has little place amongst the detritus of spears and spit that attended His gruesome end.
Does the Rev Giles not believe in the triumph of the Resurrection?
An embarrassing article trotting out the well worn line that our moral foundations, including such modern notions as human rights, rest on Christianity.
The idea that our moral foundations such as human right rest on Christianity ignores the fact that for much of Christian life there was no such thing as human rights, countless people were persecuted and cruelly punished for their beliefs. It ignores the fact that Christians are equally capable of championing the abolishing of human rights via support for right wing parties as well as their re-instatement despite both holding onto the same magical stories. Though contradictions never seem to have much weight in religious thinking
Anyone familiar with the history of morality will realise that moral beliefs evolve over time with changes to our culture and remain regardless of whether there are supersitious foundations or not.
A top-notch article, and a solid addition to Unherd’s lineup. My thanks to the author. May I add that an unserious church, flitting and floating this way and that depending on errant breezes and currents will not offer anything for those seeking the rock of stability in a world where the land itself shifts shape and position. As someone wise once said, “On this Rock will I build my church.”
It really is a bit rich of Giles to write this article. He has sided with every attempt to modernise the church and make it ‘cool’ for the best part – if not all – of his ordained life.
My thoughts exactly. Despite which, i thought it was well-written and gets to the nub of the problem. That is, to paraphrase, the church will deserve to fail if god doesn’t exist.
I love both cathedrals and small, ancient country churches, but because they’re a testament to man’s ingenuity and desire for communal purpose, though the building and upkeep of them over centuries was undertaken with a different purpose.
I also hold spiritual values dear, though not religious ones. The former don’t need “underpinning”, and therefore can’t be undermined. Giles might wish to take greater heed of that particular wellspring in our nature and build upon it with his congregation. At least It seems he’s realised his previous pandering to left-liberalism has done more harm than good.
Finally, i sincerely hope we don’t have the old GK Chesterton chesnut quoted in Comments, for about the zillionth time. (I’m sure someone will do it now!)
Looks likely that quote I think you are alluding to wasn’t actually made by Chesterton anyway.
That’s no problem. Quotes are fine, whatever their source, but shouldn’t be used as a substitute for thinking for oneself.
Their proper value is in using them to illustrate a point which is then extrapolated upon.
Why the downvotes? Yours seems a perfectly reasonable point
Why the downvotes? Yours seems a perfectly reasonable point
That’s no problem. Quotes are fine, whatever their source, but shouldn’t be used as a substitute for thinking for oneself.
Their proper value is in using them to illustrate a point which is then extrapolated upon.
Please explain what you mean by ‘spiritual values’. One hears a lot of his sort of vaguery, along with ‘spirituality’, but without the sort of non-secular underpinnings which you so deride it seems empty and fluffy.
Looks likely that quote I think you are alluding to wasn’t actually made by Chesterton anyway.
Please explain what you mean by ‘spiritual values’. One hears a lot of his sort of vaguery, along with ‘spirituality’, but without the sort of non-secular underpinnings which you so deride it seems empty and fluffy.
When? He has written quite a few articles criticising the top brass of the church for trying to follow trends, running the church as a business closing small “unprofitable” parishes and chasing customers rather than looking after the wants and needs of its existing parishioners
You won’t find the stuff I’m talking about here on UnHerd.
Giles Fraser has spent his career promoting all the theologically progressive stuff in the Church of England. This is no secret. A quick google will confirm.
You won’t find the stuff I’m talking about here on UnHerd.
Giles Fraser has spent his career promoting all the theologically progressive stuff in the Church of England. This is no secret. A quick google will confirm.
I was going to say something similar. One has to remember that Giles was one of the instigators of the ‘Inclusive Church’ movement, which has been responsible for a lot of the exodus. Having said that, I think this is an excellent article.
I left my denominational church several years ago after they tried to convince me that it was perfectly fine for a proud and committed homosexual pastor to shepherd his flock. I wonder if they would feel the same about an avowed and proud adulterer becoming a pastor?
You mean like those Evangelicals who got caught, did public ‘penance’ (genuine repentance, of course : if you can fake sincerity you’ve got it made), and then thrived? Try Googling ‘Top ten evangelical sex scandals’ .
You mean like those Evangelicals who got caught, did public ‘penance’ (genuine repentance, of course : if you can fake sincerity you’ve got it made), and then thrived? Try Googling ‘Top ten evangelical sex scandals’ .
I left my denominational church several years ago after they tried to convince me that it was perfectly fine for a proud and committed homosexual pastor to shepherd his flock. I wonder if they would feel the same about an avowed and proud adulterer becoming a pastor?
I agree it is a good article in that it articulates a more basic wish for belief in one God. However, it is the messgae that he has had in the past about being inclusive which bothers me. Inclusive does not mean everyone whatever ilk or persuasion unless they are willing to repent.
Permitting practising homosexual Ministers to preach from the pulpit and try to absolve those that choose to misinterpret the clear teachings of the Bible is wrong and therefore should not be permitted by the Church leadership. By all means, love the sinner and hate the sin as I do, but I do not want them in spiritual leadership over me.
I am also appalled at the cowardice of the Church leadership and Ministers for agreeing to close places of worship during the Covid debacle. Where is the strength of belief and committment for their faith – sadly missing it would seem in most cases
100%
I had not read your post before mine above, but agree 100%
I was in England recently after being away for many years and was dismayed by the amount of LGBQT paraphernalia draped across many CoE churches. It’s like seeing an overly permissive and directionless parent desperately trying to act cool for a dismissive teenage child.
100%
I had not read your post before mine above, but agree 100%
I was in England recently after being away for many years and was dismayed by the amount of LGBQT paraphernalia draped across many CoE churches. It’s like seeing an overly permissive and directionless parent desperately trying to act cool for a dismissive teenage child.
Sort of like those who fought hard for “homosexual rights”, even making it prideful, then fighting for changing the definition of marriage, but suddenly laments finding themselves in a transgender dystopia.
Spot on. I keep banging on about this exact thing, to the point of being a bit of a johnny-one-note.
Spot on. I keep banging on about this exact thing, to the point of being a bit of a johnny-one-note.
My thoughts exactly. Despite which, i thought it was well-written and gets to the nub of the problem. That is, to paraphrase, the church will deserve to fail if god doesn’t exist.
I love both cathedrals and small, ancient country churches, but because they’re a testament to man’s ingenuity and desire for communal purpose, though the building and upkeep of them over centuries was undertaken with a different purpose.
I also hold spiritual values dear, though not religious ones. The former don’t need “underpinning”, and therefore can’t be undermined. Giles might wish to take greater heed of that particular wellspring in our nature and build upon it with his congregation. At least It seems he’s realised his previous pandering to left-liberalism has done more harm than good.
Finally, i sincerely hope we don’t have the old GK Chesterton chesnut quoted in Comments, for about the zillionth time. (I’m sure someone will do it now!)
When? He has written quite a few articles criticising the top brass of the church for trying to follow trends, running the church as a business closing small “unprofitable” parishes and chasing customers rather than looking after the wants and needs of its existing parishioners
I was going to say something similar. One has to remember that Giles was one of the instigators of the ‘Inclusive Church’ movement, which has been responsible for a lot of the exodus. Having said that, I think this is an excellent article.
I agree it is a good article in that it articulates a more basic wish for belief in one God. However, it is the messgae that he has had in the past about being inclusive which bothers me. Inclusive does not mean everyone whatever ilk or persuasion unless they are willing to repent.
Permitting practising homosexual Ministers to preach from the pulpit and try to absolve those that choose to misinterpret the clear teachings of the Bible is wrong and therefore should not be permitted by the Church leadership. By all means, love the sinner and hate the sin as I do, but I do not want them in spiritual leadership over me.
I am also appalled at the cowardice of the Church leadership and Ministers for agreeing to close places of worship during the Covid debacle. Where is the strength of belief and committment for their faith – sadly missing it would seem in most cases
Sort of like those who fought hard for “homosexual rights”, even making it prideful, then fighting for changing the definition of marriage, but suddenly laments finding themselves in a transgender dystopia.
It really is a bit rich of Giles to write this article. He has sided with every attempt to modernise the church and make it ‘cool’ for the best part – if not all – of his ordained life.
Excellent article Giles, Thankyou. I have lost heart with the CofE as it is in thrall to secular agendas. I was astounded by the ease with which the church agreed to close its doors at a time when it was needed so much. People are searching for the sacred. Where can it be found?
And your view of the CofE and Roman bishops’ and archbishops’ protection of their paedophile clergy?
It doesn’t exist.
Rather like the Tory Party, the CoEi is a figment of ‘our’ imagination.
Rather like the Tory Party, the CoEi is a figment of ‘our’ imagination.
The Clergy should have forced the Police to take them away in handcuffs.
Some did, just not in the media for more than 5 minutes.
Some did, just not in the media for more than 5 minutes.
And your view of the CofE and Roman bishops’ and archbishops’ protection of their paedophile clergy?
It doesn’t exist.
The Clergy should have forced the Police to take them away in handcuffs.
Excellent article Giles, Thankyou. I have lost heart with the CofE as it is in thrall to secular agendas. I was astounded by the ease with which the church agreed to close its doors at a time when it was needed so much. People are searching for the sacred. Where can it be found?
“For once it has finished piggybacking on the inherited deposit of faith, it will have to work out what it believes and why.”
A very salient point. But I think we’re already there.
“that dodgy old Enlightenment idea of progress”
Bypass the demand for a definition of ‘progress’, by simply asking whether you would prefer to live during the 10th century or in the world of today. Deniers of ‘progress’ will toss a coin.
People who contend that civilisation has progressed should not be confused with the followers of the ‘identitarian’ cult. Progress came from the demand that facts are more reliable than feelings and delusions. It’s an acknowledgment of a real physical world outside of ourselves; and, the foundation of a rich and fulfilling life for the short time we have on this planet.
I don’t understand what you’re saying.
I wonder if you also believe that our real and physical world simply sprouted forward out of thin air all by itself? We do still call the creation of our planet a theory for a reason. But if you have “facts” to suggest otherwise, please enlighten the rest of humankind, by all means!
If we had been living in the 10th century, you might have asked me to explain thunder and lightning. On being unable to describe electrons and currents and voltages, you would presumably have declared it to be proof of the existence of God.
Would you accept as a fact that Planet Earth is older than 6000years?
If we had been living in the 10th century, you might have asked me to explain thunder and lightning. On being unable to describe electrons and currents and voltages, you would presumably have declared it to be proof of the existence of God.
Would you accept as a fact that Planet Earth is older than 6000years?
I don’t understand what you’re saying.
I wonder if you also believe that our real and physical world simply sprouted forward out of thin air all by itself? We do still call the creation of our planet a theory for a reason. But if you have “facts” to suggest otherwise, please enlighten the rest of humankind, by all means!
Absolutely – and the “new faith” demands we believe men are women and that perceived outrage is more important than the freedom to say what’s self evidently true.
As Peter Hitchens has observed, we are now living in the ‘afterglow of Christianity’, and when that finally fades away completely, the world will be a less pleasant place.
We forget that pre-Christian religions and societies worshipped and exalted power and often revelled in harshness and cruelty. In contrast, Christianity taught us the importance of love, compassion and mercy. Unfortunately, we now refuse to acknowledge the role of Christianity in civilising the world, and I fear what will now come to pass.
“that dodgy old Enlightenment idea of progress”
Bypass the demand for a definition of ‘progress’, by simply asking whether you would prefer to live during the 10th century or in the world of today. Deniers of ‘progress’ will toss a coin.
People who contend that civilisation has progressed should not be confused with the followers of the ‘identitarian’ cult. Progress came from the demand that facts are more reliable than feelings and delusions. It’s an acknowledgment of a real physical world outside of ourselves; and, the foundation of a rich and fulfilling life for the short time we have on this planet.
Absolutely – and the “new faith” demands we believe men are women and that perceived outrage is more important than the freedom to say what’s self evidently true.
As Peter Hitchens has observed, we are now living in the ‘afterglow of Christianity’, and when that finally fades away completely, the world will be a less pleasant place.
We forget that pre-Christian religions and societies worshipped and exalted power and often revelled in harshness and cruelty. In contrast, Christianity taught us the importance of love, compassion and mercy. Unfortunately, we now refuse to acknowledge the role of Christianity in civilising the world, and I fear what will now come to pass.
“For once it has finished piggybacking on the inherited deposit of faith, it will have to work out what it believes and why.”
A very salient point. But I think we’re already there.
Make admittance to church schools dependent on weekly attendance of the local church services. Have the priest or vicar sign the child’s attendance form every Sunday.
It is extremely hard to get people that did not attend services as children to start doing it as adults. But if you are raised on weekly worship, even if you drift away or even denounce your faith in your teens, there is a strong chance you will drift back as you get older and have kids of your own. I certainly did.
It is analogous to private schooling. Many’s the parent that went to a posh school, became an anti-private school lefty in their teens and twenties and then moves heaven and earth to send their own kids private in their thirties and forties.
Great idea
Great idea
Make admittance to church schools dependent on weekly attendance of the local church services. Have the priest or vicar sign the child’s attendance form every Sunday.
It is extremely hard to get people that did not attend services as children to start doing it as adults. But if you are raised on weekly worship, even if you drift away or even denounce your faith in your teens, there is a strong chance you will drift back as you get older and have kids of your own. I certainly did.
It is analogous to private schooling. Many’s the parent that went to a posh school, became an anti-private school lefty in their teens and twenties and then moves heaven and earth to send their own kids private in their thirties and forties.
Many thanks to Giles Fraser. The point about “you choose to [worship] with like-minded people, even if they gather on the other side of town” accurately describes my town, Edinburgh. (I’m a member of the Church of Scotland.) Posh people in our parish all go to posh churches in posher parts of Edinburgh and our parish church is scheduled for closure.
Ironically, the only circumstance under which the parish posh visit our parish church is to attend meetings, occasionally held in our church hall, of the local Preservation Society. Irony is lost on posherati.
Many thanks to Giles Fraser. The point about “you choose to [worship] with like-minded people, even if they gather on the other side of town” accurately describes my town, Edinburgh. (I’m a member of the Church of Scotland.) Posh people in our parish all go to posh churches in posher parts of Edinburgh and our parish church is scheduled for closure.
Ironically, the only circumstance under which the parish posh visit our parish church is to attend meetings, occasionally held in our church hall, of the local Preservation Society. Irony is lost on posherati.
“People don’t want weak jokes from the pulpit — they want fire.”
So… each sermon to be preceded by a trigger warning?
From Independent.ie:
Think those parishioners must have been in the “wrong” church. Sounds like fairly standard RC “fire” to me.
It sounds badass and great, so they did it ostensibly.
But how many people quietly quitted Church bored with guilt tripping platitudes about those poor refugees ?
I think a serious church that stuck to its theology and traditions unquestioningly would be an opposite pole to the hated woke blob and would attract many new worshippers (even if they lose a few lefties in the process).
That is at least some part of it.
I think a serious church that stuck to its theology and traditions unquestioningly would be an opposite pole to the hated woke blob and would attract many new worshippers (even if they lose a few lefties in the process).
That is at least some part of it.
If I hadn’t been in the choir there have been many occasions recently when I wanted to walk out because of the constant references to ‘gender identity’ and ‘the climate emergency’, as well as blatantly political criticism of the government.