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France is haunted by civil war Jihadis and drug lords rule the banlieues

"We are the police" (Etienne De Malglaive/Getty Images)

"We are the police" (Etienne De Malglaive/Getty Images)


October 13, 2022   6 mins

Ranks of men in uniform are bombarded with Molotov cocktails, makeshift mortars, and small arms fire. Commando units prepare to infiltrate a smoke-covered urban fortress. A city burns under the watchful eye of the press, reporting on “a civil war”.

This isn’t the siege of Aleppo, it’s a scene from Romain Gavras’s Athena, set in one of France’s burning banlieues. Amid the smoke grenades, police and Athenians engage in brutal fighting at close quarters, with metal rods and batons. Later, the police use fire ladders to scale the walls of a tower block. Athenians on wheels circle around a beleaguered police testudo, firing makeshift mortars at point blank range. Men on both sides are visibly shell-shocked.

Athena, a fictitious banlieue, has taken up arms following the death of 13-year-old Idir, apparently at the hands of local police officers. A viral video seemed to confirm it. But rather than being just another anti-cop movie protesting police brutality, Athena never makes it clear whether the police did actually kill Idir. The audience is denied a clear, anti-racist, political message. We are left to choose our own villains.

While the police lay siege to Athena, Idir’s three brothers select very different paths. Karim, the youngest, becomes Athena’s general and messiah, railing against police brutality, masterminding the looting of a nearby police precinct, and manning the defences of Athena. Mokthar, the eldest, is just trying to save his drug empire amid the chaos. The middle brother, Abdel, is a decorated veteran who fought with the French army in Mali, and wants justice for Idir but without bloodshed. The movie is driven by this central tension: between the vengeful idealist, the violent cynic and the honour-bound poster child for French assimilation.

Athena is a dramatisation, shot in Évry-Courcouronnes, just south of Paris — but it could be a documentary set in any of France’s toughest neighbourhoods. Over the past few years, the police have been expelled from these areas (only to come back in massive numbers, for short periods of time, and preferably never at night). Évry-Courcouronnes itself has been rocked by a series of gang-related murders and unspeakably violent clashes. Across France, newspapers overflow with stories of ambulances, firetrucks and police cars being bombarded with fridges, pétanque balls or Molotov cocktails in similar neighbourhoods. The authorities are powerless, just as they are in Athena. As one Athenian boasts while looting the police precinct: “we are the police”.

The banlieues are ruled by drug cartels, which thrive where economic opportunity is lacking. They generate an estimated €4.2 billion annually in France (the publishing industry, for comparison, generates €3.75 billion) and employs a total of around 21,000 full-time workers. Over the last four decades, successive French governments have poured tens of billions of euros into extraordinary plans banlieues and other “Marshall Plans” to renovate these neighbourhoods and attract businesses, but these territories remain deeply segregated and unattractive. Drug-dealing remains one of the few steady jobs.

Take Kassim from a Marseilles banlieue, interviewed for the BFMTV documentary “Marseilles, the drug war”: he describes his stable, well-paying job as a chouf (who keeps an eye for the police or rival gangs, from the Arabic “to watch”). He is adamant that he is not a gangster, and is proud of the long hours he puts in: “I work just like everyone.”

The cartels are not the only separatist force in these neighbourhoods. The rise of radical political Islam has further alienated parts of the banlieues from the French state. According to the scholar of Jihadism Hugo Micheron, more than 2,000 individuals in France are considered to constitute a direct Jihadist threat, while another 20,000 are closely monitored by French intelligence. But there’s a much larger group of up to 750,000 who sympathise with radical Islamist ideas, according to the pollster Jérôme Fourquet. The Islamist movement is far from united, but it nevertheless educated a significant portion of the next generation to defy the infidel (French society) — a rejection tracked by polls over the last decade.

In Athena, as in reality, the rebels’ attachment to France fluctuates. After looting the police precinct, a young Athenian in a stolen van proudly waves the tricolore, hinting that the young insurgents seek to do more than avenge the slain Idir. It’s tempting to see the insurrectionists as heroes fighting for a fairer French Republic. But later in the movie, some rebels with a taste for war reinforce the “us and them” narrative. Karim calls his war-hero brother Abdel a “whore in uniform for France”. For having fought for the French army in Mali, Abdel is accused of being an Uncle Tom, a traitor to his “real” community — which sees itself as outside the nation. Are the banlieues even part of France?

French culture seems obsessed with this question. There is currently a proliferation of movies depicting civil wars in banlieues. One of France’s top-grossing movies in 2021, Bac Nord — based on a true story — depicts a confrontation between police and local gangs in the rough north of Marseilles. And Athena itself grew out of 2019’s Les Misérables, which staged a similar banlieue uprising, from the cops’ point of view. It was directed by Ladj Ly, one of the main screenwriters on Athena, and although the confrontation between the police and the locals does not escalate into an all-out war, Gavras has explained: “The idea with Athena was to start with the next riot” — following the events of Les Misérables — “the spark of a confrontation that has not yet happened and that could unfortunately lead to the beginning of a civil war.”

The French are haunted by their history of civil war. The last one was only 60 years ago: its embers are still warm — something Gavras alludes to by including the occasional Algerian flag in Athena. Some on the French Right, notably Eric Zemmour, have long capitalised on this anxiety, by predicting a new civil war between the “true” French and the Islamised youth. More recently, such fears have spread beyond the far-Right. The country has been seriously rocked by a series of brutal attacks by Islamist terrorists. Last year, polls showed that while only 45% believe that France will soon have a civil war, 86% believe that in some cities and neighbourhoods, the laws of the Republic no longer apply, and 73% that French society is disintegrating.

A year ago, two open letters, written by dozens of retired general and then-anonymous serving soldiers, warned of the looming civil war. They called for the government to reinstate the authority of the state in these neighbourhoods — or, as they called them, these “lost territories of the Republic”. While most officers remain strictly apolitical, the letter got sizeable public support, with 58% of the French backing its authors.

Even centrist politicians wield this kind of rhetoric these days. “Separatism” or “Islamist separatism” are terms commonly used to express concern about these territories. Macron’s former minister of the Interior, Gérard Collomb, delivered a resignation speech in which he worried that while the French were currently living “side by side”, they might soon be “face to face”, given that in many banlieues, “the law of the drug dealers and of the radical Islamists replaced that of the Republic”. Former President François Hollande admitted that he believed there is a “problem with Islam”, and that France is on the path towards “partition” because of the nation’s inability to integrate a “never-ending” flow of migrants.

Macron himself, once more of a centre-Left multiculturalist comparable to a young Tony Blair, has steered significantly to the Right on matters of identity and immigration. In a controversial attempt to win support from voters to his Right, he gave an interview in the staunchly Right-wing magazine Valeurs Actuelles, in which he suggested a need “deport those who don’t belong here”. Following the assassination of Samuel Paty, the Macronist-dominated Parliament passed a bill which, among other provisions, considerably enhanced the state’s capacity to oversee the organisation and financing of religious associations. It was soon dubbed the “separatism law”.

While some fear civil conflict, others desire it and prepare for it. In Athena, the threat of far-Right groups is ever-present, waiting to capitalise on the chaos. The French state claims that such groups ran a false flag operation to frame the police for Idir’s death. In real life, these cells seem currently too disorganised, or embryonic, or under too much surveillance, to pose a real threat in the short-term. But there’s a distinct possibility that under-the-radar groups or individuals will decide to blindly assassinate those they consider a threat. In 2019, an 83-year-old man tried to burn a mosque in Bayonne, only to get caught red-handed by local parishioners. He shot them on the spot. Gavras did not have to invent much to depict a French society caught between the anvil of Jihadis and the hammer of the far-Right.

It’s hard to imagine any immediate improvement. In fact, things are likely to get much worse, as inflation and the cost of living crisis put even more pressure on France’s poorest neighbourhoods. Politicians on the Right and far-Right will exploit the crisis and imitate the recent successes of Giorgia Meloni and the Swedish Democrats. But policy ideas are few and far between. For a country that spends so much producing stunning civil war narratives, there’s a distinct lack of potential solutions in play. Those being offered range from the laughably insufficient — limiting immigration flows by opposing international trade deals — to the horrifyingly drastic — creating a ministry for “re-migration”.  Athena will not be the last movie of its kind: under a flailing government, the French will continue to fear, and fantasise about, civil war.


François Valentin is a political analyst and co-host of the Uncommon Decency podcast.

Valen10Francois

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Michael W
Michael W
2 years ago

France appears to be in a similar if not worse position than we are. However the French public clearly care more about preserving their nation and are aware of the problems that immigrants cause and are less cowardly than the British in speaking for a desire to preserve their nation. This reflects their politics, socially liberal Macron makes statements that even the furthest right of the Conservative party would be too scared to state. Repatriation is not a drastic option it is the only mutually beneficial solution that will avoid destruction of two of the most important nations in world history.

Kevin R
Kevin R
2 years ago
Reply to  Michael W

‘Repatriation’? Please explain to where you repatriate a French citizen, born in France who holds no other nationality.

R Wright
R Wright
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Algeria, where his parents came from despite their own parents fighting against foreign rule.

hayden eastwood
hayden eastwood
2 years ago
Reply to  R Wright

In this instance Algeria would have to agree to give them citizenship, which is possible, I suppose, but not likely – why would they?
I would suggest it would be more practical to properly enforce laws so that there are no two-state systems at play. There should not be sharia law in one area and French law in another.
But fixing this means a huge show of state force and a huge rise in prison populations, which I think is a price worth paying to establish the rule of law and public safety.

Kevin R
Kevin R
2 years ago

But the evidence from the US, which imprisons more of its own citizens than more or less any other country, shows that there is no correlation between a high prison population and lower levels of violent crime….this evidence even suggests the opposite to be true.

Michael Cavanaugh
Michael Cavanaugh
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Prisons do tend to become grad schools for crime.

Robert Hochbaum
Robert Hochbaum
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Perhaps not. But we have ample evidence that NOT incarcerating violent people causes increases in violent crime. In recent years, we have seen a series of District Attorneys in many cities (often referred to Soros prosecutors) adopt bail reform rules that essentially put many criminals, both recently arrested and some already in prison back out on the street and there has definitely been a rise in violent crime in many of those cities. I’m not making a case for mass incarceration. But, there are just really bad people (usually young men) that do violent acts and there is ample evidence that they commit more violent crime. New York, Chicago, Baton Rouge, Philadelphia, etc. It seems rare to see a murder committed these days by someone who was NOT recently released from prison or who has a long rap sheet for previous violent crimes.

hayden eastwood
hayden eastwood
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

I’m not sure I necessarily believe this. What is correlation and what is causation? It could easily be the case that large numbers of prisons reflect the high level of crime, rather than cause it.

What we don’t know and cannot easily tell is what the crime in those areas would be without arresting people for crime.

Kevin R
Kevin R
2 years ago

Well this is something of a moot point because it is clear that in either case, just tossing people into prison doesn’t stop other people from committing violent crime (thus raising questions about imprisonment as a deterrent). Violent criminals may well deserve their comeuppance, but arguing for more prison sentences as a way of cutting violent crime makes no sense…it constitutes a reaction to the problem rather than a solution.

Richard Ross
Richard Ross
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Unless you know what the level of violent crime *would* be, without incarceration, there’s not really a way to avoid the obvious conclusion that violent crime is the cause of incarceration, not the other way ’round.
It could well be that lowering incarceration rates would lead to a rise in crime.

Kat L
Kat L
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Uh there is a correlation; they’ve let a lot of them out, Soros backed prosecutors don’t actually do their jobs and our city streets are exploding with crime. We are a 300 million country so it’s logical that we are going to have a lot of people in prison. Prison reform was a fail.

Will Longfield
Will Longfield
2 years ago

France and perhaps Italy and Spain may need to occupy parts of North Africa to deport them back to, if Algeria, Morocco and Libya will not take them people back.
Unthinkable? Yes, but a year ago a massive land war in Europe was unthinkable. If the situation is as bad as the author implies, France has no hope of maintaining domestic tranquility and its own national identify without such drastic action.

Kevin R
Kevin R
2 years ago
Reply to  R Wright

You cannot ‘deport’ someone to a country of which they are not a national, irrespective of where their father, mother, hamster etc was born. Former French president François Hollande tried to push through a policy of déchéance de nationalité for those thought to be involved in terrorism and was widely ridiculed when it proved to be unworkable for this reason.

Kat L
Kat L
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Sounds like they don’t think of themselves as citizens so no reason for them to stay.

Will Longfield
Will Longfield
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

You cannot ‘deport’ someone to a country of which they are not a national”
You can by forcing the country in question to take them back. France could occupy a part of the North African littoral with ease, and deport the element of its population that rejects French citizenship. Then return the occupied territory to the Algerian or Tunisian government at a later date, with their population returned.

Roger NN
Roger NN
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

DNA test to establish country of origin

Janos Boris
Janos Boris
2 years ago
Reply to  Roger NN

This is a matter of mindset, not race. There are large numbers of law-abiding French citizens of North African origin. I agree with hayden eastwood: shari’a is incompatible with French law.

Ibn Sina
Ibn Sina
2 years ago
Reply to  Roger NN

Wouldn’t work

Laura Giles
Laura Giles
2 years ago
Reply to  Roger NN

DNA cannot determine country of origin. And how far back do you want to go. Because that means we are all headed to Africa. I am a US citizen of 100% Northern European stock (determined by DNA). Should I head back to Europe? And which one of many countries in Northern Europe my ancestors came from a couple of generations ago?

Laura Giles
Laura Giles
2 years ago
Reply to  Laura Giles

I like all of my options by the way. Although it is going to be pretty cold and dark most of the winters. Bummer. Too bad no one was from Greece.

Last edited 2 years ago by Laura Giles
Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
2 years ago
Reply to  Laura Giles

I am of Italian and Irish parentage, born here.. Does that make me ” English”? no.. Merely being born in a stable does not make one a horse!

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
2 years ago

A spurious comparison; nationality is not the same as species. If one is of Indian origin (for example) but born and raised in England, has British nationality, and has loyalties to England/Britain, then one is English.

sally ingrey
sally ingrey
2 years ago

I am English, both my parents surnames are in the dooomsday book. If I had been born in China, spoke the language, and was also a Chinese citizen I still do not think that would make me Chinese. Nor would I expect the Chinese to see me as being one of them. I would label myself as being culturally Chinese of English heritage.

Will Longfield
Will Longfield
2 years ago

This is not meant to be an universal principle. France is facing a continuing domestic emergency. Mass deportation to resolve a specific emergency is what is being proposed here.

Michael Cavanaugh
Michael Cavanaugh
2 years ago
Reply to  Roger NN

And then send 13% of the person back to Sweden, 58% to Germany . . .

Kevin Jones
Kevin Jones
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

This is what happens when citizenship replaces nationality. In other words, the law and the paperwork count for more than ancestry, language , history, tradition, ritual, religion and so on. Zemmour did not ‘capitalise’ on the existing situation; rather he pointed it out in all its dangerous detail and predicted where France is headed. Stuck with it now.

Jacqueline Burns
Jacqueline Burns
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Many, if not most of the troublemakers, are far more likely to have arrived in France within the last 10 Years.

Kat L
Kat L
2 years ago

links and stats please i would be interested in reading that.

Kevin R
Kevin R
2 years ago

Wrong. This may be the case with some of the perpetrators of the more high profile terrorist attacks of recent years, but it is not true of the majority of hoodlums causing misery in the banlieues. This latter group is what the article is about.

Michael Webb
Michael Webb
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Assimilate or b****r off and take your offspring with you. Simple.

Michael Cavanaugh
Michael Cavanaugh
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Perhaps (as Americans used to say during the McCarthy era): “back to Russia?”

Aaron James
Aaron James
2 years ago

In South West USA I just watched an interview with some Border Sheriffs who say the Cartels 100% manage the literally millions of illegals the Biden regime has let stream across the fully open Border.

They went on to say Mexican Cartels are fully operational in every American city, even big towns. These Sheriffs who have been working Law on the border decades must know what they are talking of; it is very scary – what is Biden up to that he has opened the border to millions, all whom have to pay the Cartels, and many are part of the Cartels.

The Hispanic voters have always been Democrat voters till this upcoming Mid Term elections when they will be voting majority Republican, as they know how life under crime lords is.

Don Lightband
Don Lightband
2 years ago
Reply to  Aaron James

FULLY OPEN border? Care to specify at all?

Brett H
Brett H
2 years ago
Reply to  Don Lightband

Would you care to explain what it is then?

Kat L
Kat L
2 years ago
Reply to  Don Lightband

yah probably about 2 million ‘refugees’ and ‘asylum seekers’ who wish to game the system will cross this year with almost no push back from this administration; some wearing ‘biden please let us in’ t shirts. this after getting it down to a 50 year level from trumps time in office. we had it solved and biden opened the flood gates.

Kat L
Kat L
2 years ago

“to the horrifyingly drastic — creating a ministry for “re-migration”. how much more horrifying than a teacher getting his head cut off or bombings for some perceived slight? you get what you put up with…

Michael Cavanaugh
Michael Cavanaugh
2 years ago
Reply to  Kat L

Vigilante beheading, or mass deportation: it’s your choice! (How one say in English: false dilemma?)

Mark Kennedy
Mark Kennedy
2 years ago

It’s a false dilemma in the sense that it doesn’t qualify as an argument either for or against such a ministry. What’s at issue are the criteria that would guide the ministry’s decision-making. I’m sure few would object to deporting an immigrant guilty of such a horrific crime. Deporting his neighbour because he too is an immigrant (not a beheader) is a different story.

Last edited 2 years ago by Mark Kennedy
Z 0
Z 0
2 years ago

Kat was comparing which events get categorized as “horrifyingly drastic”. Making those horrific alternatives the only two options came from your own mind. You need to take responsibility for creating your false dilemma.

Last edited 2 years ago by Z 0
Jacqueline Burns
Jacqueline Burns
2 years ago

As you sow, so shall you reap! Instead of pouring money into these hellholes, send the ones creating them back from whence they came with no right to return to what was, once, a Belle France. This would be a far better use of French funds!

Emre S
Emre S
2 years ago

Are you saying they are not French citizens? Looks to me like legally speaking they are perfectly entitled to be there.

hayden eastwood
hayden eastwood
2 years ago

You have to come up with something better than wishing them away.

The problem your idea faces is that no country is likely to give a criminal passport and citizenship just because a great grandparent had citizenship in that country.

Lots of downvotes to people pointing out that these jihadis don’t have citizenship to other countries- but nobody is providing credible means by which Algeria, for example, could be coerced or incentivised to give French born jihadi criminals Algerian citizenship.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
2 years ago

Islamists are waging war all round the globe… Our media are too frightened of the ” Islamophobia” fifth column.

Michael Spedding
Michael Spedding
2 years ago

The article shows how (apart from the drug issues) the French can take to the streets. I live in France and am both British and French (‘forced’ to be French by Brexit as I have a company in France, and I love both countries). France has difficulties, but not as much as the UK appears to be suffering. I seriously think that the UK would benefit from having some serious (French) demonstrations at present. We have just seen how millions can be mobilised by the death of the Queen. We now have a totally incompetent quasi-unelected government with no mandate at all for what they are doing and which can cause immense long-term harm. I recommend you read the ‘Shortest History of England’ to show the roots of the constitutional crisis we are facing, and the North-South divide. So I also recommend mass demonstrations (peaceful, as occurred three weeks ago?) and then the King can dissolve parliament! Of course, if nobody wants to demonstrate, then the entire idea of constitutional change cant take place, but if nobody wants to take action, then a society deserves what it gets from a government without mandate.

Jeff Bartlett
Jeff Bartlett
2 years ago

Michael, in which country are you now living, Britain or France, and since when? How does your place of residence influence your choice of media, and how widely do you read around issues? I’d appreciate a little more understanding in these areas before responding further to your post. Thanks, Jeff

Michael Spedding
Michael Spedding
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Bartlett

Jeff, I live in France (36 years), with an appartment and honorary position in UK; I am a scientist (successful, well cited) and I read extensively, I have a worldwide position in research and before COVID travelled widely. I read LeMonde, Guardian, Times, Unherd among others, and scan other papers to see what they are saying. This is my first Unherd post. over to you! all the best Michael

Jeff Bartlett
Jeff Bartlett
2 years ago

Michael, many thanks for your prompt reply. One final question if I may, and then a request! In which part of France are you, and rather can conduct a correspondence in full view of other esteemed Unherd readers can you suggest a more private method? Perhaps making contact via something like LinkedIn thence to exchange email addresses, or can you think of an alternative? Cheers, Jeff

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
2 years ago

Would you feel the say way if you disagreed with the proposition?

Matt M
Matt M
2 years ago

I think you are being a bit hysterical Michael.
We have a perfectly good system to remove poor governments: the ballot box. I suspect Liz Truss will be replaced by her own side or by a general election. Either way, nothing good has ever come out of protests or direct action.

Michael Spedding
Michael Spedding
2 years ago
Reply to  Matt M

Yes, I dont normally like direct action. But the ballot box is <18 months away. It is just that we are in a very difficult situation, where Truss didnt want to tax the companies which had made >100bn£ worth of profits, proposed 60bn£ of loans so our children will pay for this etc etc. and none of this was voted for (except for a small number of party members). The financial situation is ‘rather poor’ and much worse than in Europe.
(Jeff , linked In!).

Jeff Bartlett
Jeff Bartlett
2 years ago

Thanks, Michael! My LinkedIn profile is totally anodyne, but hopefully yours will be easy to find and I’ll message you.

Hugh R
Hugh R
2 years ago

“…We now have a totally incompetent quasi-unelected government with no mandate at all for what they are doing and which can cause immense long-term harm”

Oh Dear Michel, you have gone native.
Tell me who you voted for in the €SSR Presidential elections?..230-ish votes got VDL elected to a position to implement laws and policies that 450 million subjects have utterly no say in formulating.
Who went to gaol for killing 100k people because of Dieselgate?
.

Mark Kennedy
Mark Kennedy
2 years ago

The reality is that you cannot police people into accepting your ways; you can only seduce them, by conclusively demonstrating your ways hold the promise of a better life for them than the ways you’re asking them to abandon. Evidently, secular France has not succeeded in persuading enough of its Muslim immigrants this is the case; but if a bifurcated state is to be avoided, there really is no alternative. The only effective and lasting way to neutralize enemies is to turn them into friends. Violence and repression, even centuries’ worth, simply harden the battle lines.

Z 0
Z 0
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Kennedy

I love the humane idealism you promote, and I fully support that as the optimum course when it works.
How certain are you that it’s universally feasible, tho? Do you suggest that there be a Plan B if it doesn’t work, or just Plan A forever?
Remember, you don’t just need to seduce 80%, you need to seduce close to everybody, because the bomb-throwers are usually only a minority.
And what would you consider the most applicable and replicable historical examples of the approach you advocate?
Again, I like the idea, I’m just trying to understand the scope and boundaries of it, the pragmatics.

Emre S
Emre S
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark Kennedy

The problem is as far as I see, French, and really Western way of living seems to be dying. People don’t set up families and raise children, therefore the native population is shrinking. Granted this is a Western only problem, but is dominant in the West. The question then is why would someone assimilate to a dying way of life? When that question can be answered, the rest isn’t hard.

Brett H
Brett H
2 years ago
Reply to  Emre S

It’s a good question. But why would someone emigrate to a dying way of life? I would think it’s because it has something they haven’t had, or lost. But why would someone then attack that way of life, or want to change it? Possibly because they’ve never had anything good enough to value, that their culture, and religion, never gave them anything but pain. Maybe they’re like those children from dysfunctional homes who won’t be helped and damage everything given to them in the hope of helping. It takes a lot of work to help those types, with a big failure rate. But this destruction is clearly a sign of dysfunction.

Emre S
Emre S
2 years ago
Reply to  Brett H

I’ve been asked this question in different forums/threads: “But why would someone emigrate to a dying way of life?”
I don’t think it’s that hard to imagine why. Firstly, it’s easy to see France has wealth. It’s also not hard to see some of this wealth goes back to activities like slave trading or colonisation of Africa. Regardless of where you stand in the political spectrum, I think anyone can understand the reasoning behind following the money. Furthermore given the above, you may see why there would be a lack of respect for the people who have the money when it’s thought the money is ill-gotten. So, I think it takes a bit of empathy to understand the mindset here, but it’s not contradictory. Your example about children probably does have merit though – in the same way abandoned or poor children don’t tend accept the legitimacy of the system that put them where they ended up.

Brett H
Brett H
2 years ago
Reply to  Emre S

“I don’t think it’s that hard to imagine why.”
“I think anyone can understand the reasoning behind following the money.”
If that’s the reason then it’s bound to end in disappointment, then frustration, then anger. If it was for living in a more democratic society, less war-torn, and a better future for their children then that would make sense. Which is, I imagine, the hopes of most emigrants. So lack of respect for where the money came from doesn’t add up to much, especially if that country offers you things you never had.

Kevin R
Kevin R
2 years ago
Reply to  Emre S

“People don’t set up families and raise children, therefore the native population is shrinking”
What?? I have a family and children, so does everyone I know. The schools are full and you have to beg for a place in a public creche.
Please explain what you mean by the ‘native population’.

Emre S
Emre S
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

I have enough income these days, and so do most of my friends. So, it must mean there’s no poverty in UK, good to have solved poverty.
Moving on. Native population is the group of people who aren’t immigrants – or descendants of immigrants. Usually there’s a cut off time when the descendants are more attached to the country they live in, or are accepted in it, at which point they become native. For example, Germans and Irish were seen as non-native in America for a while before they were all accepted as white. But you knew all of that didn’t you?

Last edited 2 years ago by Emre S
Kat L
Kat L
2 years ago
Reply to  Kevin R

It’s been in the news quite a bit lately that the 1st world countries are not reproducing to replaceable rates. We are headed for a heap of trouble.

Karen Newman
Karen Newman
2 years ago

The film does make clear who the villains are and they are neither the cops nor the gang members. I won’t give it away in case anyone here plans on watching the film.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
2 years ago

The only banlieue I know at all well is Ivry, which lies just outside the Paris Peripherique an hour’s walk from the Latin Quarter. It’s not downright dangerous like the hell holes described in the article, but it is very down at heel and prompted a sonnet:-

XXIV

Sonnet Concerning a Banlieue

Ivry-sur-Seine is difficult to love.

The revolution’s curdled here; St Just

has loaned his name to the tabac. Above,

the chimneys belch their Promethean dust

into the cold hard blank November sky.

The matchstick men from Mali and Algiers

trudge past the concrete cake mix, and the pie

of unfinished apartment blocks. No tears

were shed for beauty, no Lautréamont

has milked this abscess for its clotted crème.

La France Soumise spunked dry for Mélenchon’s

bijou apartment in the 10ième:

Versailles’ most elegantly velvet fist

replaced the Marquis with a communist.