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Her name isn't Karen (GUANG NIU/AFP via Getty Images)
There is a corner of the internet that is obsessed with depressed middle-aged women. Or, specifically, is fixated on a four-year-old study, which suggested that 41% of Americans who use antidepressants are white, female and over 45. The obsession has nothing to do with concern for these women. The viral tweeter “Bad” Billy Pratt (@KILLTOPARTY) is representative: in March he posted a graph tracking which demographics “have used antidepressants for at least five years”, circled “White women 45+”, and captioned this: “Welcome to Hell”.
The Miserable Older White Woman emerges from the same blend of old-school misogyny and ageist ugh-mom-ism that brought us first the Wine Mom and then the Karen, in the summer of 2020. In theory, a Karen was a white woman who called the police on black people who were simply minding their own business. In practice, the term started getting used (and is indeed still used) in reference to any woman over the age of 25 who has spoken up, in any context. In the early pandemic days, I was once called “Karen” after asking some teenagers on public transit to put on masks. But anti-maskers also got labelled Karens too, so we can’t win (unless we stay silent).
Who has it in for these women? A significant number of the Twitter accounts piling hate on middle-aged women seem to be controlled by young men who give off incel vibes. They are also angry at young women for rejecting them, and their mothers for not sending their favourite meal down to them that evening in their proverbial basement. What is clear is that these women are an avatar for complaints that span, or defy, the ideological spectrum. The Miserable Older White Woman inspires an intense, if difficult to pin down, political fury. Both progressives and the Right seem to agree that “Liberal white women on antidepressants will be the end of our civilisation”, but the stereotype allows a range of people to channel a variety of frustrations. She’s the 53% of white women who supposedly (but not actually) voted for Donald Trump in 2016, but also the tear-strewn pussy-hat wearer at the Women’s March protesting that election’s outcome.
For the Left, the privileged lady wrangling a prescription for her non-problems can be blamed for all of society’s woes: racism, imperialism, the housing shortage, the cost of living, climate change, perhaps even monkeypox. Her antidepressant usage can be categorised as yet another indulgence she engages in while other people suffer, akin to a day at the spa: “White women live off of Starbucks and antidepressants.” The Left-produced caricature lives in a large suburban house with a rich husband and resents her perfect life: “Excess red wine, antidepressants, free time and money has truly done wonders to boomer white women.” This is a women whose problem is that she has it too good. If she had to deal with the same adversity as everyone else, this would build character, and she’d stop the whinging.
For the Right, the Miserable Older White Woman is the opposition: “Democratic party supporters are self-hating college-educated white women. Basically if you live in an apartment in LA and own four cats, a massive ‘sex toy’ and consume a lot of antidepressants you are a Democratic party voter.” And she is getting her comeuppance for her decades of liberalism. She foolishly bought into the feminist myth that women have brains and should have high-powered careers and look at her now, all alone with her cats, pining for the life she could have had if she’d settled down when still turning heads. If she’d stayed a virgin until marrying Ward Cleaver at 22, she wouldn’t be popping pills of any kind. She’s sad because she’s alone, but don’t feel sorry for her, it’s a misery of her own making. A lesson for young women: get married before you’re middle-aged — and why not to one of the charming young men who spend their days online mocking older women?
And yet critics from the Right also have it in for the Miserable Older White Women who have settled down, but who fail to have either aged into traditionalist matrons or remained chipper 20-somethings. Pratt, of “Welcome to Hell”, more recently made the rounds for introducing Twitter’s cynical masses to the Peach Mom, a comic about the angst of an apparently well-off stay-at-home mom (albeit with side hustles) who despises her husband for doing less of the housework and childcare. The woman behind these evidently autobiographical comics then got widely ridiculed, in part because it is objectively ridiculous to post comics to the internet that bash your spouse, but also because she was a Miserable Older White Woman, unhappy with her lot, but for no good reason. Why wasn’t she grateful that she had a provider husband who also did some housework? (Much was made of the fact that he apparently does childcare when she goes out in the evening to teach yoga, as though the teaching of yoga is an indulgence and not a part-time job.) She should be grateful, was the gist.
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SubscribeWho. Cares.
This is all so high school. Come back to the real world where important things matter.
Feminists created an environment where it was ok to smear the basic existence of an entire sex, insisting that men are born and wired to be evil, and feminism continues to complain about the reaction to that treatment in lengthy articles focused in puerile Twitter disputes like this one. If one wanted to call out white, middle-aged women for their narcissism, neuroticism, and the fruits of their divinely gifted leadership (i.e. modern society), how could one even do it today without being branded as an incel by writers like Phoebe?
Yes. Someone makes a comment about women over 45 and suddenly it’s a “thing” that needs to be commented on, then written about.
“Who Cares?” Ain’t that the truth. All that drama from your teens to thirties, and then it turns out that the thing really worse than being wolf-whistled at, is not being wolf-whistled at.
Both are about being judged for your looks, something young men are starting to worry about these days as well. (The rates of anorexia and body image problems among boys are trendy sharply upwards.)
My guess is that the men online complaining about older women are among the 80% women swipe left on on Tinder – in other words, they are being judged (down) for their looks.
If one can believe the statistics that are touted on YouTube pieces:
women (on average) regard over 80% of men as below average in the looks department (I think this may be independently of Tinder statistics).
on Tinder, men (on average) swipe right on over 60% of women’s profiles, whereas women swipe right on fewer than 5% of men’s profiles.
So who is it – men or women – who typically make unfavourable judgements on the physical appearance of the opposite sex?
Older women look after themselves a hell of a lot better than older men. A true generalisation.
My question: ‘So who is it – men or women – who typically make unfavourable judgements on the physical appearance of the opposite sex?’
Your answer: ‘Older women look after themselves a hell of a lot better than older men. A true generalisation.’
At first I thought that this didn’t answer my question. But on reflection, I realise that it did.
It’s also other women who make unfavorable judgments about other women.
And the witch hunt was similar.
but true!
If they’d stayed with the older woman she would have looked after them too…….probably 🙂
The women won’t let them stay, if the divorce stats mean anything.
They have to. Another true generalisation.
“So who is it – men or women – who typically make unfavourable judgements on the physical appearance of the opposite sex?”
Even if these stats are reliable, as they’re based on Tinder data they sure the hell can’t be taken to be representative of men or women in general.
They’re were actually based on OkCupid data, and while you’re right that they can’t be taken as being representative of men or women in general, OkCupid’s demographics happen to be incredibly close to the adult population as a whole so it’s wasn’t a terrible stand-in for it either, but that’s a bit of a moot point now that the results have been replicated by several researchers testing representative samples in the US, Canadian, German and Australian (I think) populations.
Either way, women do indeed judge men on their appearance more harshly than men judge the appearances of women. It’s just that appearance isn’t quite as important to women as it is to men so we typically don’t see the effects of this in the dating populations.
A better corollary here is how women judge men harshly based on social status, while men have almost no collective judgments on the social status of women.
65% of women aged 30+ in the United States will not even consider dating a man who earns less money than she does. 2% of men feel the same way about women.
And if 65% of women aged 30+ won’t even date a man who earns less, what percentage of women do y’all reckon would be willing to MARRY a man who has NO INCOME at all and whom they might be responsible for supporting financially for years after the relationship ends? My guess is less than 1%.
Evolution. It’s ruthless.
This is why putting a woman in a good job is such a tragedy. It’s a tragedy for her, a tragedy for the man she displaces and a tragedy for the woman who might have married him.
Thanks for taking the trouble to reply so comprehensively; much appreciated.
The 80% negative for women judging men and 60% positive for men judging women simply follows evolutionary determined procreation strategies. Women need to be choosy because they bear the brunt of child rearing while men are more successful if they spread their seed around.
Correct. In evolutionary psychology/biology terms, I believe it is termed the ‘r vs.K’ procreation strategy.
The point, though, is that some women complain about difference between typical male and female behaviour as though it were some dastardly trick deliberately perpetrated on them by men, rather than by nature.
Or Mother Nature, if you prefer.
And the ‘brunt’ is spending what should be quality time with the kids and not spending so much time at some crappy job. Something most women choose to do. Why is looking after your kids always presented as a burdon? It is a luxury.
Spreading your seed around is giving yourself to a life of slavery (child support). Our culture has increasingly reversed reality.
If you have small kids (have some if you don’t) you should quit your crappy job ASAP & stay home to spend quality time with them as their 24/7 primary caregiver. It’s obviously something you should want, since you describe it as being so fufilling. Nothing should stop you since it’s not a burden & as you said, your job is obviously crappy if you have kids at home, so quitting should be easy!!
Do you have an independent thought or theory about women and men other than the oft-regurgitated pablum by arm-chair psychologists?
“Both are about being judged for your looks”
Nope. Good try at the usual trick of “it’s men’s fault” but Fail.
It’s narcissistic behaviour and hypocrisy in this class of women. Complain, complain, complain about being appreciated in an admittedly rude fashion, while simultaneously basking in it, expecting to be admired for superficial beauty.
I remember a Guardian author called Valenti, who wrote a piece in the evil of catcalling.
Followed later by an article on how she missed not being catcalled now, and it was (surprise) men’s fault.
As an aside, that lady gave me my first true glimpse of Guardian feminism. She penned a piece on how men should be jailed effectively without recourse or trial, if they slept with a drunk women because it’s rape. Deleted all my comments innocently asking if women should be treated the same way if they slept with a drunk man.
The same mindset that would reject 80% of men on dating apps but accused men of “objectifying” women.
We are all judged on one other criteria. Bothered me for awhile and then I grew up and either ignored the barb or had a perfect retort.
Now at 68, all i worry about is not having too much pain when I get up and after exercising. The rest is unimportant.
Stop exercising.
Maybe the girls should start whistling at the boys?
Or just maybe, parents should go back to teaching their children self worth & self respect for their bodies which are not toys to play with & change at a whim but an item to be cared for, respected & loved just as it is.
Like an irreplaceable piece of expensive machinery (assuming you don’t accept it as G/d given) it should only be mended if broken not just changed because you think you would be happier with a different nose or something.
And no, I am not talking about minor changes such as dyeing your hair or self-tanning. Even tattoos….though don’t expect everyone to pay for you to have it removed on the NHS when you grow up & regret having had it done.
I am talking about invasive surgery such as nose jobs when the one you have works perfectly well, botox injections, b**b jobs, etc. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!
The ‘girls’ (women) did whistle at the boys at Bear Brand’s Nylon Factory in Woolton, Liverpool, England circa 1968. The ‘hot legs’ section was populated by women and we male post A level students working in the warehouse for the summer had to traverse the hot legs section to get to the canteen. My experience of building workers is they stuck to whistling or a shout to gain attention. The ‘ladies’ added some very educational comments to the whistles, on the subject of what they’d like to do if they got us alone. Funny, though we only laughed after we’d sped up and escaped to the safety of the warehouse or canteen. The problem was, in the hot legs section with all those women, one could imagine them deciding to practice what they preached!
This might be due to the sharp drop in testosterone levels in the past generation or so.
It isn’t about not being wolf whistled at. It’s about being dismissed, not taken seriously, abused for just crossing the road (yes, I’ve had that several times) and all the other things you won’t know about because you’ve never been a middle aged white woman.
Truth is I never minded being wolf whistled at and I don’t mind not being wolf whistled at. It doesn’t affect me at all (and no I’m not a lesbian!), I’m a solitary observer of life now. I actually found the article quite amusing. The points made were not lost on me, though I understand why they make middle aged white men so angry. It must be nice for you guys to have found a new popular target after years of being called “gammon” and suffering the ignominy of being straight white males 😉
Oh please. I’m a middle aged white woman and thought the article was hogwash. I’m not treated badly by society. The ones that are are usually very much Karen’s and deserve it in my opinion. If you aren’t being treated well you might want to question your role in it. We don’t live in a Handmaids Tale and you can’t gaslight your way into compliance with a neurotic worldview.
…actually, as Phoebe’s article notes, it’s the young incel types who vocally call out Karenism etc. Older men, tamed by partnership with actual women, are more forgiving.
Hilarious! Your comment made me laugh – b/c it’s so true. I myself “identify” as a woman (maybe a little older – ahem), but I still like wolf whistles and “looks” and admit it. Always have.
What I find interesting in my wisdom, is that the “mean girl” from grade school and high school is still around. It’s so distressing to realize the mean girl syndrome has never gone away.
Very true. I loved being wolf-whistled at back in the day & couldn’t (& still don’t) understand what was wrong with it? I always gave the whistler a smile or a wave to show my appreciation of his taste! 🙂
You’ve just proved her right.
There are many incels around. Angry men who dislike the little woman having an opinion or a job outside the home. She should be tending to all his needs, surely.
“There are many incels around.”
This may or may not be true. “Many” is a relative term. But does the article prove what it claims to be true?
I don’t think the article was meant to prove anything, it was just an observation. It’s also specifically talking about internet generalisations. It’s a fair assumption I think that a large proportion of internet content is provided by incels (perhaps of both sexes) or at least those without a settled social life.
I haven’t heard of many of the cases she’s talking about, but I can well believe it’s happening. However, older women have always been a target, it’s nothing new.
What’s the female label for “incel” … “femcel”? I intend to start using it!
You just did exactly what you accused feminists of doing: you slandered a huge group of people for the actions of a few. Why don’t we ALL stop slandering other people and try to have more empathy and compassion for BOTH men and women?
Don’t know where you learned about feminism but as a life long feminist, what you say is completely alien to me. Feminism to me is that women get an equal bit of the cherry to men not are left with the stone. Same with my gran and her dusters who were suffragettes and my mother who campaigned for equality fir single mothers and older women.
The USA is different to the UK, but it still doesn’t mean feminism from there is bad. Women in the USA fought to end segregation and for immigrant women.
Feminism would not have been needed if men had been willing to give up some of their power and see women as equal to them.
…do you ever wonder MJ where the male “power” you reference comes from? Men’s physical power, to acquire and hold resources was the start of it, and females and their offspring the principal beneficiaries. This raw capacity has morphed into male developed technology, and thus men have already ‘given up’ their power to women, since tech moderates the ancient division of labour based on strength and dependency.
The error of political Feminism, is in not realizing that the battle has been won, and that the future (for women and their children) will be secured by reconciling with the male gaze, not endlessly denigrating it.
Instead, Feminism has metastasized into a permanent ideological war against all aspects of the differentiated social order which has carried human survival to this point in history.
So 90% plus of the men who died in World War one did not have the right to vote. When the Russian army returned home the Russian Revolution took place the British government shit it’s pants and sought to appease the British troops returning home one of those appeasement was the representation of the people act 1918 which gave working class men the right to vote as well as women. Feminism did not get women the vote, also the suffragettes did not support working class men having the right to vote. The suffragist movement was the bigger movement with both men and women joined together to campaign for universal suffrage. But we never hear about that do we ?
Equal pay act
Did not come about because of feminism it came about because of the Transport and General Workers Union members both men and women who went on strike at the Ford motor company at Dagenham that got equal pay for work of equal value . Single men were paid less than married men.
.So feminism didn’t get women the vote or equal pay but both of the examples above clearly show that is men and women together got women and men the vote and equal pay. So what does feminism do ?? if we go to a bookshop we can see clearly that the feminist books are the ones that are allowed to have hateful and sexist titles such as ” it’s ok to hate men ” and ” the end of men ” just imagine the outcry if those titles were about women well we don’t have to because we all know that such a book would not stand any chance of getting past the first stages of getting published. Feminism is today total hypocrisy and any one who disagrees with a feminist is labelled a mysoginist which it you look up the definition of a bigot you find intolerance of the views of others in which case feminism and critical race theory are bigotry but I am
Being a little unfair as I have met people who described them selves as feminist s
What I should add to be fair is that it feels to me that there is partly a divide and rule element to this from media / politics probably click bait . But the real division is class and with what is coming down the tracks we need unity to take it on and identity politics is the opposite of that ,class transcends identity .
It’s the tyranny of false expectations. When women get equal pay (Equal Pay Act of 1963 of the United States, Equal Pay Act 1970, UK) all will be well with the world. But it wasn’t. When divorce laws changed, when abortion was made legal all will be well with the world. But it wasn’t. When women can have well paid jobs and raise a family all will be well with the world. But it wasn’t. When stereotypes are overturned in plays and literature all will be well with the world. But it wasn’t.
Now here’s the unspoken truth. There are many poorly paid men, suffering from the ills of society. Most feminism doesn’t care to recognise the ordinary lives of people, only spin some myth.
So perhaps when Miserable Older White Woman are held up as evidence perhaps, just perhaps, the numbers of Miserable Old White Men might suggest there’s no particular malice involved?
There is a joke that goes “1% of the population control 90% of the economy; conservatives are OK with that; liberals are also OK with that, as long as the 1% is equally representative of women, ethnic minorities and the LGBT crowd”.
The current strain of feminism operates on a similar basis. Looking at the top 1% of men occupying most positions of power, it mistakenly assumes all men to be oppressors, ignoring the fact that the remaining 99% of men are effectively in the slush pile: some at the top, as long as they can be useful slaves to the 1%, the rest (the majority) invisible and untouchable; all of them ultimately disposable. Feminism may have been about real-world equality once – now it’s just about getting a slice of the 1%.
Gosh. This article must be the most Karen one ever written. I honestly thought it was satire, but apparently not.
No, just a routine exchange of stereotypes misunderstandings and insults. So much for each of us being a unique individual of infinite and amazing possibilities.
I’m 80 next birthday, arthritic and slow but am far from invisible. I find men, especially, unbelievably kind and attentive to this aged crone: they reach things from high shelves in supermarkets, take my suitcase at railway stations etc. Only yesterday I was rescued by two farmers when I ended up in a ditch, having reversed my car to allow another driver to pass on a narrow track. They had my car roped up and hauled out in no time, with jokes and great good humour.
The constant denigration of men by self-absorbed ungrateful women (I’m looking at you, Phoebe) is damaging and unfair. It is men who climb poles in gales to restore power supplies and work in sewers to keep our cities clean etc. It’s hardly oppressive drudgery to look after the kids and do a bit of ironing in return. The sexes, and their skill sets, are, by and large, complementary (though if a woman wants to mend cars or a man to bake cakes, that’s OK too.) We should treasure and value each other instead of whipping up antagonism.
Bravo! Agree 100%.
So very true Anna. Women ARE equal BUT different & anyone who can’t except that is a dammed fool (along with the statistics they try & use to paraphrase a certain saying which Mark Twain has attributed to Benjamin Disraeli)
….okay okay. So, it’s only the quadragenarian females who are to be cussed then.
Thank god there are women alive now, but past their reproductive capacity, who are of a mind to fulfill their evolved function of providing social stability. (Humans are the only species in which the female lives well beyond fecundity.)
“Go girl” now has a whole new meaning !
Perfect reply and at 75 I agree absolutely! I love and appreciate many men including my Dad, husband, sons, nephews, friends and neighbours. Thank you men for being men. And btw I haven’t had to carry my suitcase up stairs at stations for years! A young man rushing past always picks it up with a smile and takes it up for me without me asking – and that’s because they’re normal young men who love their own mums, grannies etc. and feel like helping similar older women.
I think so much of what we read doesn’t reflect the reality on the ground.
Thank you. While I am a bit younger than you (49) I find men opening doors for me, helping with groceries and basically being quite kind. I think the issue is that some of these men are young and handsome and no longer hit on women of a certain age. And why would they? I wasn’t gunning for old men when I was a young woman, why would young men want a middle aged or older woman? When you put all of your self worth into being able to manipulate men sexually, when you lose that ability it can be a real crisis to some. Especially if you haven’t established other satisfying roles for yourself, such as wife, mother, volunteer, etc.
At 65, absolutely agree. I have found all folks, esp men of all ages, increasingly kind to me as I wrinkle ever more! (Not sure how I feel about the wrinkles, but do appreciate the benefits!)
This part of the comments thread reveals the disturbing fact that there are still plenty of simps and white knights around.
Red pill men never lift a finger to help women.
Well said.
To the editors at Unheard: You should ask Anna to write for you. There is more wisdom in her short comment than Phoebe’s entire article, and God knows wisdom is in short supply these days.
Wonderful Anna! I felt like cheering after reading your comment.
With age, comes wisdom. That’s something that can’t be said for “Twinky” pseudo-intellectual “feminists”. Bravo!
Asking teenagers to put on a mask is a very Karen thing to do
Usually it’s a demand to mask up, not a request.
Mostly it’s because Karen doesn’t want to get ill.
Good sarcasm!
A masterpiece of self-absorption.
Opinions about opinions about opinions. Is this what we’ve come to?
Indeed it is. I blame Aquinas, but YMMV.
Interesting that, until now, not a single woman has commented on this article. FWIW, I too find it pointless and drearily complaining. Old age, the loss of a particular kind of physical beauty, illness and death are all unalterable facts of life for both sexes. No point in complaining about any of it. Better to get on and enjoy every moment we are not suffering or hungry. We do have charge of one thing, our own feelings, although we no longer seem to understand that this is the case.
We have the extraordinary good fortune to have been given a zillion to one shot at being here. Don’t pop pills. Find something to enjoy about your life! Try something different. Do something positive. (Yesterday I wandered into a Baptist church. Weird but, in places, enjoyable. Some wonderful people. Tomorrow I’m going back to see if I can help Iranians learn English. No I’m not ever going to become a Baptist, but meeting new people, peering through a window for a moment into other lives is a wonderful experience.) And therefore I set you male commentators a challenge. Could each of you think about women you’ve met of a certain age, find something positive and approving to say about just one of them and write it here before the end of the day? There must be a teacher, a grandmother, your own mum perhaps, a nurse who treated you with kindness in hospital, a checkout lady who did her job with a smile. If you don’t know any, go find one to talk to. No doubt I’ll get snarky attempts at humour back, rather than a real conversation. I hope not. I’m sure you are all great people I would also enjoy meeting in real life. Again FWIW, I too would agree that feminism and women’s characterisation of themselves as “victims”, and above all the assertion that masculinity is “toxic” are all a huge mistake. Of course this attitude pushes men into defensive and aggressive responses. I don’t blame you. The only real divide is not between men and women – as Lionel Shriver remarked to Freddie Sayers in a recent interview, we don’t actually experience gender when we are alone. We are all just people – no the real divide is between virtue and vice, positive and negative. Masculinity when possessed by a good man is a wonderful thing. Ditto femininity in women. But both can be terrible if possessed by terrible people. I look forward to reading your contributions. Thank you for kicking my own morning off to an interesting start.
“And therefore I set you male commentators a challenge. Could each of you think about women you’ve met of a certain age, find something positive and approving to say about just one of them and write it here before the end of the day? There must be a teacher, a grandmother, your own mum perhaps, a nurse who treated you with kindness in hospital, a checkout lady who did her job with a smile. If you don’t know any, go find one to talk to.”
its not women, it’s the article itself that’s being challenged.
Yes Brett, you tell yourself that. I also note that you’re not able to find anything positive to say about older women. Not that I particularly care since you’re not in my circle, but it’s an observation.
Really? What observation is that? Because I didn’t respond in the way you wanted you dismiss me. I really don’t know what you expected. Because I didn’t say anything positive about women, a “challenge” as you put it, you immediately put me among the Twitter nonsense referred to in the article. I’m not even sure what you mean by “older women”. And because you don’t even know my age I don’t see how you can use that term in relation to me. Why would you do this?
Edit: sorry, Pam, I realise it was not “your” challenge.
My wife is an older woman, and I love her as dearly and with more understanding than I ever did. Her body is that of an old woman (as mine is of an old man) but all the wrinkles, the stretch marks, varicose veins are like the veterans battle honours. She bore our children and she carries to scars to prove it.
I do really wonder if the elite of our society are deranged. Articles like this seem surprisingly common. They must lead very unhappy lives.
It’s a good idea, Jane, asking men to discuss the admirable women in their circles or even in the larger world. Decades of personal experience suggest to me that few men would fail to think of at least some intelligent and decent women. But the article, as Brett Hill says, is not about this or that woman. It’s implicitly about women in general–that is, women who supposedly have some stereotypical feature in common such as age or class. Unfortunately, the author herself sounds more than a little stereotypical by blaming men as a class for her own problems as a woman and by pretending that only women have problems.
If I were teaching a course on relations between men and women, I’d begin, on the very first day, by asking every male student to submit a few lines, anonymously, on what he considers distinctively admirable qualities of women per se–that is, features or contributions that are characteristic of all or most women). But I’d also ask every female student to submit a few lines, anonymously, on what she considers distinctively admirable qualities of men per se (men in general). My hunch, after thirty years of depressing research on this topic, is that women would find it much more difficult than men to answer this question. How could it be otherwise after half a century of feminist misandry (spearheaded by both young and older women).
Of course, this class project would be difficult or impossible these days. By now, for one thing, not even all men could name anything at all that’s distinctive about men except for misogyny. The effects of implacable identity harassment, over so many years, are that severe. Moreover, I could never ask this question at all and keep my job, because who’s to say what a “woman” means (or what a “man” means”)? So, this class project remains a thought experiment. But I see that you are open-minded and might therefore find it helpful to consider asking yourself the same question.
I know one of those excellent women. My wife, spouse, love of my life, really cool chick, best friend, and all around good gal.
Louise works as a university professor and spent the better part of her summer prepping her courses because she is very concerned that her students learn important things that will help make them better people.
She just rocks.
And lucky for me, still loves me after 35 plus years.
My one has also stuck around in a rather long marriage. In her case though, the official position is that she could have done much better but staying out of pity because I would starve to death without her.
Ms. Bovy’s article is precisely about appearances. One thinks of C. S. Lewis’ “Till We Have Faces.” What hope is there for us if remain on the level of appearances only?
Thank you for this reference. C S Lewis is appearing for me on every side these days.
“I was once called “Karen” after asking some teenagers on public transit to put on masks.”
Ok Karen.
I am fed up to my back teeth on the constant war and vilification of my race (white Europeans). We make up 14 per cent of the global population and High European Culture is THE watermark of human intellectual achievement. What’s more, I’m proud of Europe’s contribution to the development of the modern world. No wonder over forty per cent of older white women are on anti-depressants given the hourly attacks by the far left.
Now that is one comment I can get right behind! I find that one of the things that depresses me most is the fact that I’m supposed to despise my entire heritage.
Maybe the author does have a point and maybe by older white men are just as in need of a little help and understanding as their female counterparts.
IKR? Maybe older white women are having shit thrown at them in this political climate, but I think the group getting the lion’s share of the shit-throwing are working class white men.
She reminds me of every single person I met while in Toronto: a sanctimonious bore with a desperate need to share their very predictable opinions.
On behalf of torontonians, I . . . Tend to agree.
I am a middle aged white women who is not miserable. I’m pretty happy, actually. I no longer listen to or care what unintelligent and delusional people say about us.
If you are not miserable (like the rest of us) it just means you have failed to grasp the reality of your situation. Of course, if you have failed to do that, it’s a pretty sensible choice!
I’m a woman. Why would I join this ‘conversation’? I have an actual life to lead.
There you go. You don’t have to. But you did.
She passed a sensible comment in passing 😉
I’m a woman, but I’m an older one so I don’t actually have a life to lead. So I will join in. 🙂
Yet another poor women article. I much prefer yesterday’s headline and article in the Times :-
“There is just no escaping this ridiculous cult of self pity “– Camilla Long
Women are coping with menopause symptoms, caring for elderly parents and grandchildren, yes still doing most household chores and – in most cases I know, working part time or volunteering.
That’s enough pressure to give most people of either sex the odd wobble.
I genuinely struggle to think of any couple where the wife actually does most of the household chores. What they usually mean is that the hours spent by husband “just spend over an hour driving to the Sainsbury’s to get a few things”, dropping kids off, handling repairs etc somehow mysteriously happens on its own.
While the two hours spent by the washing machine cleaning clothes counts as “household work”.
The only exception is a) where the husband has a 60 week job (still does the Sainsbury’s and kid drop, mind) and the wife is part time or b) certain religious communities where the hubby does sit on his arse and does f all.
Who commissioned this article? It appears as an unfocused rant without basis in the world of day to day living. It’s is not coherent and not based on evidence. A very poor piece of journalism. The editors at UnHerd should be ashamed.
They are busy bodies that need to fill columns of ‘newswrite’…
Everyday.
Keep that in mind as a filter of journalistic integrity.
Older women (and women in general) are generally the moral ballast in any culture. (If you want to see what a world without women looks like, check out college fraternities or monkeypox orgies).
These days, there’s a great deal of disagreement about what is moral and correct (masks or no masks? is sex fun or assault? are trans women superior to biological women?), so there’s a tendency to shoot the presumed keeper of the opposite morals, which is often an older women.
It’s a sign of our general moral confusion.
“Older women (and women in general) are generally the moral ballast in any culture.”
Yes, I thought that when I was 20. But then over time I found out it wasn’t true. You seem to be suggesting that women are more moral than men. How do you prove such a thing?
Of course this is only relevant if you think Phoebe Maltz Bouy is right and that women over 45 really are a target.
I think she’d be much happier if she changed her name.
You might want to check out Afghanistan under the Taliban, too.
I have never seen a clearer example of a straw man argument. I just can’t take what follows seriously.
Phoebe is not alone in observing that. The trick is not to take it personally, unless of course you are one of those. Bye that I’m talking about both men who are taking what Phoebe is saying personally and women who are taking what the incels say personally.
She is building a tower of unsubstantiated assertions on the flimsiest of foundations. The only “observation” is that some people on Twitter posts material critical of middle-aged women. Everything else is wild speculation, unless Phoebe has detailed data on the perpetrators which she has chosen not to share. And I don’t count Phoebe’s ability to detect “vibes” from Twitter messages as data either.
So two of you doesn’t mean you are both right 😉
Indeed – a pretty misandrist article …
I keep coming back to this story because I can’t quite work out what it’s about.
First of all it’s the idea that women over 45 are demonised. But no proof of that except some comments on Twitter.
Then there’s this:
“But the common ground of why she’s demonised is that she represents liberal modernity, to people across the political spectrum who object to it.”
Is this the story then, that people of all political persuasion don’t like liberal modernity and women over 45 are the target of this dislike because … but I can’t get any further than that.
No proof? But there was a tweet with 4 likes as substantiation 🙂 Seriously, if we are going to look for proof in popular culture then I would look at the top grossing film of the year. Top Gun: Maverick’s female lead was played by the stunning Jennifer Connelly (>45 y.o.). As I remember her character is the mother of an adolescent and a business owner, mature qualities that don’t diminish her appeal to either the protagonist or the audience.
Society obsessed over female beauty, which it restricts to age 16-30 with very few exceptions. I think it’s undeniable that women over 40 are judged more harshly than younger women because they are not as attractive to men.
We have to stop focusing on looks, but that’s easier said than done.
The depressing thing is that left-wing people and younger people are the most looks-obsessed. This is a huge blind spot for the virtue signallers.
Stop focusing on looks?
We might as well stop focusing on breathing.
To find ourselves gobsmacked by Beauty is really one of the things which makes us human.
What we hope, though, is that our understanding of what Beauty is transcends the narrow 2-dimensional perspective of our callow youth. For most of us, I believe that’s true.
[But definitely — when we’re all 18 yrs. old, that kind of ‘hotness’ is what it’s all about. I don’t think that’s a depressing fact as much as it’s a realistic one.]
As for ‘older women’ being judged “more harshly” than younger — I’m not at all sure. Certainly Hollywood and Big Media tend to value the Young and Gorgeous over the Older & Gorgeous… but that does not indicate a ‘harsher’ judgment as much as a marketing one. Youth sells to some audiences better than Age.
But the shifting focus of those places pushing ‘beach blanket beauty’ (for lack of a better term) doesn’t mean we’re more harshly judgmental about the Nicole Kidman’s (55) or the Helen Mirren’s (77)…or the Diana Rigg’s (82) …just differently judgmental (we wouldn’t cast them as Juliet, as a for instance….but we’d have loved to spend an evening with them!).
My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world and is 57 years of age and not on depressants. She is loved for who she is.
Maybe. Your guess is as good as mine.
I was thinking that maybe the point was ‘it’s OK’ to take drugs…”one that won’t make me sick’…. One that won’t make me crash my car….Or make me feel three-feet thick”
Or maybe it was that the Hotness Stereotype has a very narrow window…which closes faster than the Hot typically realize.
Hard to say, really.
…actually Phoebe, the correct acronym is ‘Affluent White Female Urban Liberal’.
Or perhaps ‘Miserable Older White Woman’ generates the sort-of-acronym ‘MiOWW’, the plaintive sound her cats make.
MiOWW is so true! Mean girls from a young age, are mostly still mean girls when they get old. It’s a conundrum to realize that when you finally grow up. I have found it to be true anyway.
Hahaha
‘In the early pandemic days, I was once called “Karen” after asking some teenagers on public transit to put on masks.’
Serve you right, you credulous tool of Big Pharma.
I really think Unherd has lost the plot. I’m checking out. What was an interesting petri dish for centre right thinking has turned into a playground for the Twitterati to vent. Ever since you started pushing for subscriptions, the left have invaded, the headlines have turned to clickbait (this article is typical). There’s no ‘unherd’ writing here. This a mainstream Tweeter venting in long-form. So dull. Bye.
Yes, I’m beginning to wonder what I’m subscribing to here. I expected something a little more focused and intelligent, whether it was left or right leaning didn’t matter. This is not it.
While I agree that this article was poor, I’m staying with Unherd because they still publish writers like Mary Harrington.
It’s just money?!
He has a good point!
I’m surprised and disappointed by the wash of vinegary misogyny in many of these comments. I thought the article was good, and that the topic is worth investigating. Perhaps no real conclusion is presented here, but because an issue is not neatly wrapped up does not mean it is not worth the discussion.
And this is the discussion.
And there you have it folks. People dissect a dreary article by a woman for many reasons and are labelled misogynist. What, even the women Nick ?
Hi Aidan, people are totally free to pick apart an article they find dreary. I also believe they should be free to use whatever language they wish to use, including loaded and prejudicial terms. And other folks are free to call them out on it and rebut their dreary critiques.
And yes Aidan, women can be misogynistic. The world is a nuanced place.
I’m disappointed, but not surprised. I’m sure many others must have noticed the growing trend towards blaming older people for everything. Older white men must have felt terribly got at for several years now (gammon anybody) and are probably now relieved that older white women are getting a thrashing too. I don’t want to go into the ins and outs of everything here. However I knowledge some of the truths in the article. I am 63, I do take antidepressants, I live on my own with a dog, though not in a luxury apartment, but in a tiny terraced house in a rundown part of a rundown seaside town. I have had something of a career, though not much of one because I spent much of my early life bringing up a daughter in times when when employers won’t so family friendly.
I will say one thing though men. Please don’t judge us too harshly until you’ve been through the menopause yourself. It’s called the change for a reason. I’m 63, I work out and look after my diet. I have very little money. I don’t care. I’m happy enough if people just leave me alone. I like the fact that I still look good for my age and I enjoy the fact that I still get admiring looks from men from time to time. I don’t want to date any of them. I’m simply not that interested. I don’t take HRT, but I have been taking antidepressants since the age of about 51 because life looked very bleak then. I also got made redundant twice in the space of 3 years. Now I find it very hard to get another job. I know men experience the same things, why so much anger at the writer of this article?
I don’t relate to the pampered middle-class women that she writes about, except intellectually, but what good did my brains do me. Or my looks for that matter? I didn’t have money. Besides that I have the nowse and the capability to live on very little and make a go of it lol.
Middle-aged white women and not a new target. We’re just an old target recycled. Namaste.
Pam, the point is not that women are regarded as these horrible creatures the article is suggesting through its reference to Twitter. I am not judging your sex and age harshly, but the nonsense in the article itself, based on nothing but random comments on Twitter. More importantly it’s the nature of such articles that create the divisiveness that does not exist that needs to be called out.
Brett, you don’t need to be so defensive. I’m not complaining, I’m merely observing. Individuals will have their own reasons for applying and they may not all be the same.
I will say this though: I have read many of the unheard articles and some are better than others; I have never seen one so roundly attacked in the comments. And yes I don’t think it’s that bad and I can see the point that it’s getting up. So really I do you have to wonder if Phoebe has more of a point than people want to admit. I’m not pointing fingers here, just again suggesting possible explanations.
I’m not being defensive, merely pointing out the fact that a writer uses random comments on Twitter to create some sort of observed truth and that it creates unnecessary divisiveness. At that she’s succeeded.
Seems to have confirmed the author’s point that misogyny is alive and well.
The misandry is very healthy here as well.
Misogyny?
Perhaps I’m skimming too quickly, but thus far I’ve seen no hatred of women demonstrated in any of the comments I’ve read. Certainly we’ve been critical of the author of the piece, but general dislike of women (half the human race)?? I’m missing it.
It would be helpful if you provided some insight into what you see, here, as being hatefully anti-women.
This is why I am grateful not to be on Twitter. As a 60 year old white woman lucky enough to be middle class (and taking anti-depressants) I have never experienced this contempt in real life. Young men tend to be very sweet and polite toward me, my son is very loving and respectful, and no one has ever called me a “Karen” despite my being very vocal about my political beliefs (economic progressive/anti-Identity politics).
Online “life” is a delusion. We are all deranged online.
If we want to be free of the psychosis that is social media, we need to delete out Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram accounts.
If we are not willing to do this, we have no one to blame but ourselves for the hatred and division in our culture.
There are no “good guys” on social media; the “good guys” are enablers.
Your first mistake is thinking Twitter is a valid representation of serious thought. Your second is the entire rest of the article.
I can’t help seeing a logical problem with this piece.
Complaining about … people saying they complain too much.
Or feeling miserable because they’re told … they look miserable.
Kinda proves the validity of the original observation, really.
You’d think by know, the author had reached an age where she realises that you can’t win everyone over. There are loads of people who just won’t gel with you and that’s ok because there will be loads of people you feel the same about. Stop worrying about it. You can’t change other people but you can choose not to get bent out of shape over something that’s not in your control. Get off social media, take up a hobby and watch the need for antidepressants fade away!
Yes.
Coincidentally, I made a very similar observation (about the unwisdom of expecting the whole world to like you the whole time) on an UnHerd piece a few weeks ago.
As another commenter added: ‘As grandma would say, “You ain’t the only pebble on the beach.”’ ‘
Strange, for an age men have endured, if they should be so bothered, the title ‘stale plae older white male’ which might include the word ‘gammon.’ Not many complaints from either males or females, yet somehow the term ‘miserable older white women’ becomes a case of misogyny? Equality, aquates just as well to fairness as it does to abuse, equality covers all basis not just the selected few you fixat upon. Welcome to the world of infantile name calling. Think as an Adult, behave as an Adult, and respond as an Adult, then get on with what is important, all the rest is a distraction. Wishes of health and peace to all William
To be fair though women are used to it, we’ve always been targets. I can understand though why straight white men who have been so vilified for the past 6 years or so are so enraged to see women being cast as victims again. Why should older women complain? Women who grew up before equal opportunities had fully taken hold, before women were “expected” to be as successful in the workplace as men. It’s not as if second class status is anything new for the older woman.
But yes, poor old men who, having endured a few years of being called “gammon” while we were being called “Karen”.
To be fair we should probably all not be quite so sensitive. As I said in the previous post it’s an interesting enough read, not one of the most riveting I’ve ever read and the conclusions are shaky, but it does encompass a lot of what I’ve observed online too.
Your world is very sad, I suggest you change it. The women in my family wouldn’t put up with it.
My wife told me to write that she’s not miserable.
Probably means she so oppressed that she’s not yet realized how oppressed & miserable she really is!
It is unfortunate that the writer has illustrated this piece with a picture of Hillary Clinton. Ruins her case before she starts.
If it is any consolation, as a young man I was aware of women looking at me. Not anymore! Age is hardest on the gorgeous.
I found this too! Lol. However I’m still pretty gorgeous my age so ner!
I’m sure you are
AAAAAAAHHHHHH Poor Hilary!
A further indication of mysogyny to add to the writer’s list of hateful attitudes and actions on the part of cis-males across the political spectrum: the plaster board ceiling!
Men continue to exclude women from all manner of manual trades – bricklayers, plumbers, electricians, sewer workers and tilers, just to name a few. Selfishly, they retain their privileged positions to deny women the job satisfaction, and wages that come with these professions. No wonder so many women can seem frustrated and unhappy, giving rise to the “Karen” mysogynist moniker.
I’m 52. I’m white. I have two sons. I had them a bit older. My sons are completely confounded by all women. They have already, at young ages, and little experience been handed a weird albatross that everything is their fault when it comes to women. The sexual and feminist revolutions have had loads of negative effects on society. Perhaps it was all necessary but it’s entirely clear that we are well past ‘jumping the shark’ on both fronts. My sons are confused and weary by a narrative that displays women as victims when they see all around them the exact opposite. Their female peers are killing it. The ones that aren’t are becoming trans. It’s a brutal landscape. Perhaps all this negativity is a reaction to movements that have far outlived their usefulness. The saddest and angriest women I know have amazing careers, breadwinners in their families, but children that are train wrecks. They blame society…..partially true. We need to reorient our value systems.
There’s plenty of help on the internet for young men if they want it.
Yes a divinely dystopian landscape of disaffected young men unclear of their place in society addicted to porn and gaming. It’s very helpful indeed.
…You’ve nailed it Paige. Men, the masculine ones, are withdrawing to the sidelines. (Look at the numbers not going to university for example.) But it is women who are going to have to call the halt to the excesses of the ideology. Mary Harrington’s recent Unherd article is the best example I’ve seen yet, of someone contemplating this.
I love Mary’s writing. Louise Perry is also completely on point with regards to the excesses of feminism and how it has backfired for all.
“ In practice, the term started getting used (and is indeed still used) in reference to any woman over the age of 25 who has spoken up, in any context.”
Um, no, no this is not how the term is used at all. If these ideologues have such a strong case why the need for all rot?
I have seen it used to that way on several occasions.
Bunkum!
You and Pam may be talking past each other.
Is “Karen” widely used as a derogatory criticism of irrationally demanding White Women? Sure. Definitely. Google ‘Karen’ as an ‘NGram’ and you can see the massive rise in recent years.
But is ‘Karen’ regularly used in reference to EVERY woman who has spoken up in any context? Nah, I don’t think that’s the case at all.
The difference in context & content is critical.
A woman who orders a double-scoop of ice cream and then goes ballistic and asks to speak to the Manager, when she gets what she feels is…only 1.5 scoops is a ‘Karen’. Angelina Jolie, speaking of refugee rights, is not. Neither is Kaja Kallas, speaking of her desire to keep Estonia open during the Pandemic.
The author’s broad characterization that all women who voice an opinion are criticized as “Karen’s” is inaccurate.
Very perceptive.
Women are coping with menopause symptoms, caring for elderly parents and grandchildren, yes still doing most household chores and – in most cases I know, working part time or volunteering.
That’s enough pressure to give most people of either sex the odd wobble.
However, maybe USA has greater anti-depressant use than UK, because I can’t think of a single woman in my network who relies on anti-depressants. HRT is an alternative.
Keep in mind, Deb, that all the references about women are from random comments on Twitter. Hardly a reliable source about anything. As someone said, this article is a straw man argument.
True Brett, but Phoebe does say herself in the article that it’s an internet phenomenon. And I’ve observed it myself, thoygh not from the same perspective as, say, an American.
And if I said I have not observed it would that be equally as relevant and evidence that it may not be what Phoebe suggests?
Actually — although the data is relatively ‘soft’ — anti-depressant use in England is marginally higher than the use rates seen in the U.S. (at least according to a very quick googling). England shows a 5% increase over the last year and it’s currently estimated that approximately 15% of the population is taking prescription anti-depressants.
In the U.S. (although the absolute numbers are much larger) anti-depressant use is estimated to run right around 13%.
In both England and the U.S. female use of anti-depressants seems to be approximately double that of men. That can very roughly be estimated at 17.7% of American women and about 20% of English women are currently using anti-depressants.
I suspect anyone exposed to articles like this might need anti-depressants. Tho’ in my case I think I’ll opt for a cup of tea. Give up on Twitter would be my advice.
Karen is another horrendous word from the US culture wars. I saw footage of a group of hooded and masked Antifa activists, mostly male, screaming “go home Karen, go home” to an elderly lady who objected to their antics outside her home during the BLM rioting last year. You had the feeling they would have beaten her unconscious given half a chance. Pure misogyny by young hoodlums.
Not sure what to make of this catch-all characterization of women and what might be ailing them. The author seemed to want to create another unneeded ‘victim’ category, when society is seemingly exhausted with the myriad ‘victim groups’ formed in the last nanosecond. Could it simply be that women test higher for ‘neuroses’ than men overall and perhaps are truly in need of medication? Could it be as simple as that?
“Could it simply be that women test higher for ‘neuroses’ than men overall and perhaps are truly in need of medication? Could it be as simple as that?”
Could it be that it’s not even true? This article is a reference to Twitter nonsense .
No. It is still the case when women go to see their doctors most of the time, the first thing that is said to them is “I think you are depressed. Have some pills”! Gets us out of the surgery really quickly. When you refuse the diagnosis, there is often much huffing snd puffing and sighing. I am on a whole load of meds but definitely not antidepressants, but it took persistence!
All single people are neurotic.
Next question.
Possibly, but I think it’s a realization that perhaps older women are angry because the playbook they bought has left them exhausted, unfulfilled and bitter. Who knew aping men to gain status would turn out so poorly. We (society) told them they could have it all if they just leaned in enough. We treated family and children like a hobby or subcontracted it out to manage it all and wonder why the legacy we built feels like a house of cards? Women are angry but, sadly, they are lashing out at the wrong targets.
Then there’s the old analogy: Put red and black ants in a jar, they’ll climb around each other, no problem. Shake the jar and they attack each other. There’s a thesis-worth of jar shaking going on, some with mal-intent behind the scenes, some just a function of the human condition under pressure. But hey, let’s not stand together, let’s just attack whoever we can and see how long we last. Please, don’t do your bit to plug the hole in the boat. Certainly don’t look for ways to work together to save our planet, species or sanity. Just look left and right and pounce on whoever’s closest, anyone to blame so you don’t have to take any responsibility for anything, because that’s going to save us.
In the not really such brilliant yet still quotable lyrics of Joe Jackson “And if there’s war between the sexes / Then there’ll be no people left.” Less brilliantly still is “Man makes a gun, man goes to war” given that Liz Truss would like to send us all to war with China and Russia, together. Then there’ll be no people left.
One could go on the internet, search for “articles” and quotes from various “sources” and write this article about virtually any demographic. Being oppressed and envious of what others have, along with mocking, is the lifeblood of social media.
Really who gives a toss
Are these people looking for universal approval, with anyone who disagrees with them suffering from some sort of issue that needs to be dealt with
I think social media has a lot to answer for. Stop using it and live a happier life
Buzzfeed calibre writing here.
You are a Karen for doing this! – “I was once called “Karen” after asking some teenagers on public transit to put on masks.”
Just own it.
If a person harasses teenagers on public transport for not wearing masks then that person is indeed a Karen. A person not minding their own business!
I’m still struggling with the concept of a male being a ‘Karen’………..
There must be a better term
Perhaps a ‘Nigel’ – or a ‘Cyril’?
I like Bruce. It’s vanilla but annoying…..just like Karen
How is kindergarten garbage like this allowed in this Publication?
Maybe a name change to RE-HERD is required
The task facing any member of society these days is to compose a wittier diatribe about any other group engaged in this most worthy obsession.
One more demographic to feel sorry for.
It’s hardly surprising that older women are more miserable than men.
There are two fundamental facts.
This inevitably leads to the following power dynamic:
Before the age of 30, women have all the power because young men want sex.
When women are in their 30’s, men have all the power because women want a relationship.
Advice for men… never marry or commit before she’s in her 30’s. If you wait, and let’s face it, men have way more time than women, you’ll get a much better deal.
I see Romance isn’t dead. 😉
In the immortal words of that archetype misogynist, “Life’s just much too hard today,” I hear every mother say
The pursuit of happiness just seems a bore
And if you take more of those, you will get an overdose
No more running for the shelter of a mother’s little helper
They just helped you on your way, through your busy dying day”. Ah, Mick Jagger nailed it.
It the realm of feminist grievance – and it is an ever-expanding one – women have agency only when they achieve success or happiness. When they encounter disappointment or sadness it is inevitably due to the nefarious patriarchy depriving them of it.
Wow, woman up. My two daughters read this and said that she and the women she is referencing need to take responsibility for their lives. Can’t say it any better than that!
women from 45 – 57 are not, I repeat, not boomers. That generation cut off in 1964.
Originally Baby Boomers were 1945-1955. The group from 1955-1964 became a sort of second wave of Boomers. But they aren’t really Boomers. We all know why they were called Boomers, which was the sudden response in optimism and birth rates to the end of war. That response went on for ten years. Try to explain why children born in 1964 were an effect of the end of war in 1945.
I say that women have a Culture of Complaint.
And this article proves my point in spades. Because it is an article complaining about people that complain about women.
I also say that women have a Culture of Kindness. The two cultures, I maintain, issue from the fact that honor for a woman is her chastity. But I wouldn’t expect Phoebe Maltz Bovy to understand that. She seems to belong to the modern cult identified by Ben Rhodes that “literally knows nothing.”
…Spades indeed. The objective of the interminable female ‘conversation’.(” Yes dear, I heard you the first time and the second time actually”…) is communal groupthink. This is an essential element of societal stability for sure, but it has no internal mechanism for moderation. Hence the association of the feminine with chaos. Phoebe seems to be somewhat aware of that though because that’s the name of her podcast. However, unlike Mary Harrington at Unherd, she can’t seem to break free of the bondage of Feminism to contribute to the conversation about solutions to the wokery chaos..
Which century do you live in? Don’t think it is the 21st! A woman writes a n opinion piece and gets her head in her hands.. Men fo it and get high praise. Exactly what she wrote in her article.
Lighten up Frances…
I wonder if having H Clinton as heading photo tainted this article for many? She’s well over 45 and hardly reflects day to day women. Most of the women I meet are mid 50s. Most are easy enough to get on with. Those that are not I doubt ever were. I think women are a bit mad lately. Mad with some or other disappointment.The feminists spent so much time chasing what they already had they didn’t notice the gay men tiptoeing past and grabbing the CEO jobs they were so desperate for. Red wine? A glance at how much has been consumed should indicate tactical diplomacy to a wise man.
Yada Yada…but is there a point in there somewhere?
Is anyone actually surprised that stereotypes exist? Or that stereotypes are themselves ALWAYS founded upon at least some small scrap of experiential reality?
Yes, of course, at any given point in time, there are people who are frustrated, angry, and depressed . Yes, some of them are actively taking anti-depressants (thinking, perhaps, that a ‘spoonful of sugar’ really does help reality go down). Yes, some of them are women…some are White women….and some, continuing to drill on down through all the demographic layers, are middle-aged, depressed, White Women (let’s call them MADWW).
But why stop there?
Some are MADWW who are in their 60’s. Some are in their 60’s and from New York. Some are in their 60’s from NY who went to Brown University and loved the BeeGees. In which case, at this granular layer, the acronym becomes MADWW1957NYBUBGees. It’s cumbersome, but what the heck?
As Josh Baskin put it in that memorable product review meeting in “Big”: “I don’t get it…. It turns from a building into a robot, right….what’s fun about that??”
So what’s ‘fun’ about a stereotype constructed around MADWW? What difference could it possibly make?
Should we have a ‘Welcome to Club of Stereotypes’ Party? Should the Deplorable White Guy with a Gut and the Angry Black Woman….and the Strident Christian Couple…and the Hipster with his ManBun…should we all get together and grill some burgers…bake them a cake?
Truly, is there any female out there who has NEVER run across a female stereotype before? Actually — Is there anyone who is not already a member of that same Stereotype Club?
To “age out of hotness” is to have inhabited the ‘hotness’ stereotype before this one. And actually the ‘sweet-young’ hotness stereotype was very probably followed by the ‘career woman hotness stereotype’…followed by the ‘soccer Mom with a van’ stereotype…followed by ‘PTA Mom’….followed by ‘ReEntering the Workforce’ Mom….followed by ‘Empty Nester’ and/or ‘Newly Single Mom’….followed by…. you name it.
In the end we are inevitably reminded of that tired old joke: “How many Angry Feminists does it take to change a light bulb??” Answer: “That’s not funny!”
Nature is mean to women.
Because they cannot think? And everything is feelings, and everything is personal?
Nature is mean to everyone, eventually.
This seems to be a First World problem. In many parts of the world cats are eaten, removing that consolation.
Hardly surprising that this demographic resort to antidepressants more often than any other group. They have been told since birth that everything is somebody elses fault or responsibility and nothing is theirs. What do you get from that? A helpless child.
Actually, if you go down the rabbit hole regarding that “fact” and follow the references in the article you’ll find that there’s more to it than that, and that the “fact”, as Phoebe presents it, is a little bit more involved.
Phoebe references one source, which has used another source as reference, and used it in a way that is not entirely accurate.
I guess what I’m suggesting is that there is something here of importance, but Phoebe, in her own self-interest, turns it into a three- ring circus, and UnHerd helps her along.
OMG. Thank you for this. 100% on the nose with this new trend. I’ve noticed it, too.
But. I have to disagree that it is young men who target older women. In my experience they go out of their way to help me, maybe they aren’t all mad at mom?
They have it tough
But white male life expectancy declined every year since 2000, while female and minority life expectancy rose strongly. What they have done with their privilege is terrorize white men. Sometimes action creates a reaction.
Maybe the trick is to avoid those corners of the internet where “Bad” Billy Pratt holds sway. Though his powers are no doubt formidable at close range, they dissipate quite rapidly when one’s attention is focused on Life’s more salubrious aspects.
To be honest this opinionated entitled verbal barrage that is popular to day. Is when you look at the larger picture. An undermining of the collective cohesive society we as social creatures need. It does nothing but add even more stress and strain. It devided and detracts from real issues that affect us. And turns humanity even further away from peace and harmony. You have 2 sides to a coin that makes a whole. You can not have a 1 sided coin EVER!. The invidual needs NEVER outway the collective needs. Nor can you have a collective of human’s all obessing over their self inflated ego’s screaming “I am entitled!” is does not and never will work as a society. It takes away from cohesiveness and the sense of belonging. It needs to stop. We have basic needs, yes.. Should we be trying to meet them? Yes.. This EGO induced sense of self entitlement will destroy humanity. Its time humanity learned how to control EGO rather than letting EGO control you!
I have used some choice terms for interfering women who offer unwanted advice regarding facewear, but nothing as polite as a “Karen”.
Smart and well spoken as Hillary Clinton was (assets for sure), nevertheless she always came across as an angry Seven Sisters suffragette type. This turned a lot of people off–and not just men. Now this may not trepresent the “real” Hillary Clinton but that was how she was perceived by tens of millions of people, even her own supporters. And in life, perception is everything.
“… old-school misogyny …” YAWN!
Think, new-school misandry …
Who care ? Enough said.
I agree with 90% of what the author listed in her depiction of women. It’s unfortunate, but alas.
There are sex differences in the main 5 personality dimensions:
Extraversion
Conscientiousness
Agreeableness
Negative Emotion
Openness
On average women are higher in agreeableness and negative emotion. The latter would imply a greater propensity to need mental health support. Surely society should provide the support and understanding, and not look around for someone to blame?
“On average women are higher in agreeableness and negative emotion.”
Is this anecdotal or have you taken it from research?
They need to STOP chugging or even sipping alcohol as a go-to medication.
I am serious.
Alcohol is the single greatest cause of all other ill-at-ease dis-at-ease (s – plural); Alcohol is the gateway drug of sanctioned choice that leads to a never ending charade of all other go-to-drugs of sedation.
To add to their misery index, if these women had learned the value of personal prohibition when young, personal peace achievement by any other means, they would have a better healthier self-image, and thus feel more attractive to men, and not find themselves alone or unattractive at an older age.
Enough.
Said.
“One can look at this as society throwing drugs at women to distract them from their situational misery so that they don’t question the situation itself. But one might just as easily see this as a case of men not having access &c …”
You imagine “society throws drugs” at women, to sort of, you know, sweep them disdainfully under a rug? My goodness. So society is now a corporeal being, a huge cinematic CGI-animated Patriarch, comprised of a cabal of conniving GPs and drug companies? People who are depressed may seek advice and having taken that step, are often prescribed medication, and are comfortable or not. Many of us think over-prescription is a serious issue, and attention to life-changes is a far better path. Apparently we agree on that much, only I don’t blame some shadowy conspiracy of men for women’s unhappiness, nor the inverse. It’s like a religious person blaming Satan for everything.
“A significant number of the Twitter accounts piling hate on middle-aged women seem to be controlled by young men who give off incel vibes. They are also angry at young women for rejecting them, and their mothers for not sending their favourite meal down to them that evening in their proverbial basement.”
ROTFLMAO
What a ridiculous statement.
“A significant number of the Twitter accounts piling hate on middle-aged women seem to be controlled by young men who give off incel vibes. They are also angry at young women for rejecting them, and their mothers for not sending their favourite meal down to them that evening in their proverbial basement.”
ROTFLMAO
What a ridiculous statement.
regardless of hillary’s age she has always been miserable , apart from that none of us care .
“Give off incel vibes”
Ah. The feminist’s excuse for everything. If a man says anything about women that isn’t unconditional praise, it is because he’s an incel. Okay, misandrist.