St George's flags fly from residents' homes at the Kirby Estate in Bermondsey. (Photo by TOLGA AKMEN/AFP via Getty Images)

Unlike the Americans, we’re not much of a country for flag-flying. We don’t fly them from private households and, unlike our European neighbours, we are not in the habit of flying them from public buildings. The only time you’ll usually see the streets decked with England’s colours is when, like today, the national team are playing football.
In fact, of the rare household flags you do see across the country, few are likely to be British. There’s been a Greek national flag flying in Walberswick for as long as I can remember. All last year our local Conservative Association had an Irish tricolour unfurled from the flat above. Ditchling in Sussex proudly flies the Cornish white cross at the moment, for some reason, and Eastbourne Town Hall the Gay Pride stripes, but that’s about it outside of major football tournaments. On the whole, like all other official symbols of our national identity — portraits, parades, anthems, uniforms and the like — we go quietly.
What does this tell us about who we are? First it speaks the truth: that states are all very well and we’d be literally lost without them, but that their official symbols are not what counts. What counts is generally found around the corner and that isn’t a flag up a pole. Our most telling identities are inherent in the people, although there are institutions — the armed forces, for instance — when popular and official expressions powerfully combine, and the battle flag is one of them.
Second, it shows a remarkable, non-political, political maturity. Communities come from the inside out. That is why they are communities. Raising a flag (especially the national one) in the middle of a community does nothing for that community, and is also just a bit naff.
The same goes for lapel pins. It was George W Bush, I think, who started wearing a tiny stars and stripes in his lapel soon after 9/11 and to my utter astonishment he kept it there and then Obama followed. British ministers do it now with Union flags or, in Hancock’s case, with the blue badge of the NHS. Warning to ministers: do you believe in our country or do you not? If you do, you don’t need to wear a pin. If you don’t, we don’t trust you anyway and a pin isn’t going to help.
Third, flags get tacky. They only look good for five minutes in a germ-free environment. After that they fly tattered and torn not by shot and shell, but by general indifference and neglect. Like weeds in the garden, flags that look like dishcloths are a bad sign. Leicester railway station used to have half a bush growing out of its clock-face and I can assure East Midland Trains that this did not inspire confidence.
Now flags are flying high in the Euro football championships, and like summer blossom, they burst out everywhere you are expecting them and in some places you are not. But like Christmas lights, or party balloons, or bare chests, they’re only there for the moment and the minute we’re out, so to speak, so are they. But if we win (did I really say that?) the whole country will come out like the Kirby Estate in Bermondsey and even Emily Thornberry will be forced to get her flag out to celebrate.
The point is, except on high days and holidays, we do not like to be told where we live or who we are, just as we did not need to be told by Gordon Brown back in 2007 what our national values were. Either they are our national values, or they’re not, and if they’re not they’re not, and if they are they are, and we don’t need teaching about them.
Only, they aren’t our “values” at all – more like pieties, and most Western democracies claim to share them. We look at ourselves more by managing, pro tem (it’s always pro tem), to come to terms with our history not by erasing what is shameful but by facing it, with all due humility. The rest can look after itself. For our history is us, not a set of values, or a lecture, or a flag, and of course it is never quite resolved. The trick is to keep it in play as an essential and positive part of who we are.
The Union “Jack” was originally the creation of a Scottish king (James VI, also James I of England) who wanted a Union of Great Britain when he found himself ruler of both kingdoms. Designed for the main masts of the Royal Navy, St Andrew’s silver saltire was laid over St George’s red cross for Scottish ships, and St George’s red cross was laid over St Andrew’s silver saltire for English ships. After the 1707 Act of Union, the Jack joined John Bull and Britannia as the third great icon of the Union state, gradually taking on a darker blue to better weather the wind and rain.
In the 1801 Act of Union with Ireland, St Patrick had no cross to offer and was not around to conjure his own martyrdom, so the flag designers found what they wanted in the red saltire of the Fitzgerald family. Stranger things had happened. In 1776, the Union Jack with stripes was the first flag of American independence, while the Welsh, who were in the Union from the start, were never in the flag, and the Irish, who were last in and first out (mostly), are in it still.
As the Union of Great Britain and Ireland was buckled together at home, and Empire accumulated abroad, the Union Flag became pre-eminent. The four home nations came to stand for the inner, more affective resources of the peoples they came to represent (and vice versa), while the Union Flag came to stand for the outer power and authority of a British state which, one way or another, claimed to represent them all.
Inner and outer nationhood was an asymmetrical mixture of politics and culture that has confounded pollsters ever since, with England, the dominant partner, subsuming its identity the most. When England won the World Cup in 1966 just about every flag at Wembley was a British Jack, even the corner flags.
It might be that the English have moved on from those sunny days and the rise of the plain red cross of St George signifies as much. When a British Government built the opportunity for formal secession into the constitution, at any rate for the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish if not for the English (who were persuaded that they had nothing to devolve from), politics in these islands changed forever. From then on, not liking the government meant, or could mean, not liking the Union, and not liking the Union meant, or could mean, politicising all the affective power of the inner nation. How well that inner power would do after independence is anyone’s guess because it has far more pull inside the United Kingdom than out it. As in the football, Scotland plays best in England. Dealing with a far bigger, more complex, and alien Union in Brussels would test Scottish flag-waving to the limit.
For the English, the rise of the red cross of St George might be a response to devo-nationalism; it saw a renaissance around the time of Scottish devolution being passed in 1997, although it probably had more to do with Euro 96 the year before. It is certainly a class signifier against a liberal meritocratic caste who, although they have found their love of football (and never stop writing about it), appear to have lost their nation. To misquote Orwell, they would rather be caught stealing from Oxfam than flying the English flag in their garden. Which is a pity. The flag of St George saw action on the people’s side in the Peasants’ Revolt and in the English Civil War, and is streaming now in pubs and bedroom windows and yes, from hard-working dirty white vans, across the land.
Back in SW1, it’s a risky game for politicians to stand in front of the flag not because it makes them look zealous but because it makes them look dull. At the Downing Street press conferences, flanked by freshly ironed Union flags, Boris & Co looked like a firm of undertakers who had got a bit above themselves.
For sheer iconic beauty and power, politicians done up in Union Flags are never going to beat gold medal athletes wrapped in red, white and blue. Flags have their moment and then they’re gone — and on their own they are never going to do it for you. If you are going to fly the flag, find the people to fly it for you, and only then spontaneously, and in earnest and together. As it was ‘Ooray for Bobby Moore, and Kelly Holmes, and Jessica Ennis, so it’s ‘Ooray for ‘Arry Kane.
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Subscribe‘…a fresh collection of loony conspiracy theories about Chinese spies inside the Biden administration,’
The is not necessarily a conspiracy theory. We know that the Chinese have infiltrated every area of American life. We know that Eric Swalwell, the Democrat Congressman (or is he a Senator) was sleeping with a Chinese spy. We know that the Chinese gave 1.5 billion to Hunter Biden’s investment vehicle. (The Biden’s are, essentially, owned by the Chinese.) We know that the Chinese have admitted their frustration at not being able to influence US policy during the Trump administration. We know that Biden/Harris will roll back Trump’s trade deals, further destroying the American working class.
This is a mindless and superficial article that more properly belongs in The Guardian.
“The Biden’s are, essentially, owned by the Chinese”
Is this the latest conspiracy ?
I knew when I read the title of this article that you would make an appearance…
He is a member of the elite you know
That’s a bit unfair. He is an American Money Lender who has made London his home for the past twelve years, and whilst deranged over Brexit, is well informed and erudite.
It would be a bit sad if we all “sang from the same hymn sheet”, where would be the a good hearted banter?
Still playing the man I see Mark. Care to share your occupation, work history and domicile?
(mind you, Ethniciodo could start with a name)
Sturmbannfuhrer Kevin, how goes it with your pronounced antisemitism?Do you have your doubts about Ethniciodo?Where is your defence of Merkel setting off a racial time bomb? You’ve had two days.
Where’s the fun being fair.
Also being deranged over Brexit tends to poison every other well
I was taught not to “mock the afflicted”, but as you say, where’s the sport in that?
The Biden connection to China is hardly new.
said the mindless and superficial trumphole
Clearly we have a philosopher here.
I was sending money to Biden’s campaign though it was milquetoast at best. I then had a friend who is a Uighur in my office. When I said I was supporting Biden, he told me that he has family in internment camps in China and they did not know their status. This was the same day, the US Institute Policy newsletter discussed that Apple’s supply chain may include slave labor. My friend said Hunter Biden had ties to the company doing the surveillance. NPR had just run a segment that the surveillance technology was developed by a US researcher. (ugh.) So it is hardly far fetched to accept what my friend said was true. I then heard Taiwan was buying as much military supplies as they could under the radar. I came to realize how important who the sitting president would be at this point in history. Being in CA, I didn’t have to make a choice on voting for Trump or not as it’s such a blue state. I voted for a 3rd party that I hope eventually breaks up the strangle hold of our corrupt two party system. Like many things, what was once a strength, is now a weakness.
The only benefit to seeing her as a candidate is the reaction of all those weeping at the loss of Hillary, “America is ready for a woman president” types.
It would be hilarious to see them change stance 180 degrees in an instant, with no hint of self awareness.
Politics is too serious for anyone to care about the occasional moments of hilarious hypocrisy on either side.
Hillary was qualified. This one is not.
That’s a matter of opinion, of course. And many would disagree. HRC did parlay her marriage to a president into a Sec of State position (a consolation for losing the presidential election) she would not have been given otherwise but she had no successes as Sec of State to point to. Mileage is not a success, although she always points to how many miles she flew when asked about her success as SOS.
Agreed about her lack of success as Secretary of State. Nor did she do much as senator for 8 years. And she wouldn’t have gotten the senatorial seat without Bill having been POTUS either. So, while I question Ivanka’s qualifications for such a high political post, I have to do the same for Hillary’s as well.
Agreed. The difference of course is that only HRC thought she could be president with no qualifications. Unless I’ve missed a few news cycles, I’m unaware of Ivanka Trump either suggesting running for president or claiming to be qualified to do so. Picking a person out of 330 million Americans and saying well, you know, she really isn’t qualified to be president is pretty pointless when they haven’t asked for the job.
To paraphrase: Mileage is not a qualification. Just look at Biden.
at this point “what difference does it make…?”
‘The role for which she was clearly unqualified’. She would hardly be alone in that in politics.
Which is not an argument in favour of letting her in to politics, but an argument for keeping more people like her out of it.
How do you keep people out of politics? Bar them from running for office?
How else? It’s massively disturbing that so many people think that way and are, apparently, completely insentient of the implication of their words.
Perhaps by the voters being the wiser about whom they select for a given office. It doesn’t have to be by authoritarian measures. Having said that, I must admit I don’t have the confidence in the electorate that I had as a young man.
Yes, so many of them will insist on not seeing things your way, won’t they?
Agreed. Plenty of folks would say it’s just fine to bar people from running for office.
Too true. If we could only solve that problem, we might get somewhere
I think she will have to shine, and all her family, when seen through the light of the Biden offspring. I would vote for her. Every recent political dynasty from the Kennedy’s to the Clinton’s and the Bush mess have been repulsive. But the Trump kids? Temperate, smart, hard working, and Pro American Values.
Yes they are all professional grifters – whats in it for me is their primary concern.
Cold hearted reptiles from the green lagoon or black swamp.
I fell off my seat laughing in response to the line about The Donald who has been and, still is a life long professional grifter retiring from his temporary role (or life) as public service – what a hoot!
He has probably never ever done an other serving gesture or thing in his entire life.
TDS is not a response-this grifter donated his pay as president, for starters-try and read more than just fellow traveler pieces that reinforce your prejudices.
Prejudices don’t apply to you…right?
Trump (pre president) never donated any money to charities which is quite “strange” in NYC since the rest of the billionaires (the real ones) are famous for their generous donations .
There are no universities buildings named Trump or Hospital/Museum Wings….
But you are right…he donated his salary to charity.
There’s a University
True…LOL
“But the Trump kids? Temperate, smart, hard working, and Pro American Values.”
That is one of the most absurd statement ever made about Trump’s kids.
His sons are Fredo & Fredo. Ivanka is empty.
Take your TDS somewhere else.
Trump’s children are talentless rich kids with arrogant, entitled attitudes and almost no grasp of the difficulties faced by ordinary Americans in their lives. Even the daily lives of well-educated Americans with college degrees and professional jobs are completely outside their understanding.
Well, that should certainly lead to political success. Look at Bush 2.
Show me a good loser and I’ll show you a loser. Trump is right to fight for every millimeter, and I would hope the rest of his family is the same. If there is to be any hope of saving western civilization, we really need it to be “Trumpized” from top to bottom and have a population of vulgarians who don’t apologize for their history and culture. We’ve had sixty years of socialism flowing through the cultural bloodstream like poison and this is where we’re at, on the point of total civilizational collapse and with a man who does an excellent impression of a Chinese asset in the White House. Who knows. Maybe the Trumps will turn out to be the Medici of the 21st century.
Trump can not spell “Western Civilization”.
“Cannot”.
And that short statement unwittingly sums up the attitude, the contempt felt by the elite, college “educated” towards not just Trump, but also the deplorables who dared vote for him.
The white men who fought to end slavery, destroy fascism and build the railroads and factories that made America what it is, would all vote for Trump.
The former slave states voted for Trump.
Descendants of slaves, then!
“former”
My entire white male parental generation actually did fight fascism; one of them died at Anzio. Not one of them would have voted for Trump
Amazing how you can speak for your dead father and uncles – if that is what you mean by parental generation
Elitism is apparently inheritable.
Not at all amazing. Some families actually discuss such matters and pass on their values to their children. I’m sorry if yours didn’t.
All of the white males in my family who fought in Korea and Vietnam didn’t.
I suspect you may have been surprised by their attitudes towards mass immigration, gay marriage and feminism.
TDS indeed-the triggered are out and typing.
Is there a prize for the person who uses ‘TDS’ the most in a thread today?
Yes, strange that some would be bothered by a president who is attempting a coup in the greatest and oldest democracy on the planet. 235 years of presidential aspirants saying “I lost”. TDS indeed. How about reality being more than a bit worrisome when the deranged and deluded are in the Oval office.
Greatest, but definitely not oldest.
Oldest as in continuity of democratic rule, not oldest as in earliest established.
My parents voted for Biden. I screamed so loud at them, the police were called. They threw me out of the cemetery. It’s not a coup if you’re overthrowing another coup.
And cares less than that about it.
I agree about the need to defend Western values and civilization. But Mr. Trump is definitely not a good example of those values
Trump was a life long liberal and still acts like it. Hysterical hypocrisy. Libs all loved him when he was still a Dem.
No, Joann, they didn’t. New Yorkers, liberal and blue to the core, despised the man and still do.
I think that explains a lot of what Trump is. A lot of that relentless boasting and bluster was to win NY. He thought with enough bling and a TV sleb profile that the city would accept him as a success. Instead they saw him as the cheap, shallow huckster that he is and treated him like a joke.
Yeah those New Yorkers really really hate celebs and hucksters. You have to be REAL to make it in New York. We don’t put up with no boasting or bluster.
Seriously, thanks for the laughs. I’m a total New Yorker born and raised and rarely have I been as amused by a charmingly naive attempt to polish the New York image. Have you ever actually been to New York? It’s a city built on boast and bluster, loaded with bling and celebs.
No we certainly did not love him. Ever.
I suspect he was a Dem because he had to pay them bribe money for building permits. Maybe he just got tired of being bled.
You’re right. He isn’t. Neither was George Patton. Or El Cid.
If I hadn’t lived to see the son of George Bush become president I’d have said you were crazy.
The son of Bush. That’s the most unlikely presidential candidate in recent memory ?? I’m racking my brains, but I’m sure there was another one. I think it was maybe a cartoon show about an orange businessman ? Help me out here.
I bet you don’t know anybody in your circle who voted for the Orange one…or voted Brexit, believes in immigration control….
I don’t know anybody who Doesn’t believe in immigration control. I’ve never heard a single person make that argument, and don’t give me Merkel’s one-off humanitarian gesture to Syrian refugees
Despite the right’s relentless attempt to keep building that straw man, I don’t believe that person exists* except in the fevered imagination of the right.
(* not counting proper fringe loonies)
The parliamentary Labour Party and the Home Office are almost entirely comprised of ‘proper fringe loonies’. Not to mention all the charities and NGOs etc. One of the many, many problems of our age is that it is the ‘proper fringe loonies’ who aspire to, and again, position of power and influence.
Who in the UK Labour party or Home Office has said that the European continent should have no external borders ?
You are entirely mistaken about the Home Office officials. They are obedient officials following the rules laid down for them. Parliament makes those rules.
The most left wing German colleague I work with was called a N**i for suggesting stronger border checks on his Facebook page.
Syria, 600-800km from Egypt, Saudi, next door to Iraq, 3500km from Merkel who absolutely had to let them in.
For a one off, the gesture for Syrian “refugees” (mostly men, because women and kids are absolutely fine in war) seems to have gone on for a pretty long time, tried to force itself on countries like Poland that do not wish to be part of it and embraced a catchment area for “refugees” that’s rather larger than Syria.
Have you read The Economist, recently?
I don’t subscribe. It’s too long to read in week. Can you summarise the main points.
Last I heard the EU has made immigration control between EU countries illegal so they certainly don’t believe in immigration control. And 48 per cent of the country voted to stay within this system
I understand. You’re moving the goalposts. It’s not the movement of Africans into the EU that bothers the right when they rant about ‘hordes of immigrants’. It’s the migration of Dutch to the UK. Gotcha.
No goalposts moved at all. You just want a racist slant on it. You must have been asleep during the Referendum because immigration was a key issue. People from the poorer, lower paid EU states found the UK a most attractive place to work in and this held wages down for the working classes. These also found their waiting times to see their doctor etc greatly increased as populations in specific areas increased rapidly.
Another impact of immigration, in case you haven’t noticed it, is the increased demand for housing in a country which is already one of the most densely populated in Europe. The Green Party doesn’t seem to have noticed the connection between wildlife habitats, spaces for different ecosystems, less polluted air, and population density because they are all for immigration too.
You sound like a product of Blair’s great “university” expansion. Enough said!
Both are economic issues.
I noticed that once Covid hit, it took about a week for the internal borders to go back up in Europe. Even today they’ve effectively shut the border to the UK. If covid has taught us anything, its that countries and borders really matter. The UK may have fared far better in covid if ( like most other islands) they’d have shut their borders more effectively. Take a look at ourworldindata.org and filter the “island” countries. UK is a stand out on how badly it has done.
Merkel’s gesture would have been fine had she not insisted that her gesture also apply to everyone else. See that’s disrespecting immigration control.
This entire conversation is about a straw woman that everyone is attacking or defending.
Yes indeed, I thought the Resurrection was more likely, but like you witnessed the impossible!
But he was governor of Texas for six years before becoming the POTUS. And Ronald Reagan had eight years as governor of California, despite so many Democrats and other leftists acting like he’d gone straight from Hollywood to the presidency. If being governor of Arkansas is a proper qualification, then surely being in that post of a much larger state is even more so.
I’d be delighted to have a female president although I don’t specifically vote on race or sex or even political party. I would put Ivanka down the line a bit though, not that she isn’t smart and hard working. I’d love to see Nikki Haley as president, she would definitely get my vote. I like Amy Klobuchar as well. Also smart and hard working.
This article makes women look catty and juvenile. Sad caricature that masquerades junior high schoolers as adult women. Not all women root for other women to fail.
Yes to Nikki Haley or Tulsi Gabbard if she has the good sense to abandon the appalling Democrat party.
Quite a few decent women candidates…and you get Hillary and Commala.
It’s almost as if they did a female only shortlist, and picked the ones at the bottom of the list for some reason.
Biden did. He specifically said his VP had to be a black female. Harris was an affirmative action candidate and will be an affirmative action VP. This makes her easier for people to dismiss since she wasn’t chosen for anything that actually matters. The sad thing is that it was Biden himself who labeled her that. What a complete dolt. He could have simply chosen her rather than first say only a black female would do. She might have been taken more seriously if he had done that.
Kamal is a cop, though. Consider her enemies.
Being a cop is irrelevant. Harris was chosen for gender and race. And she’ll be taken as seriously as a choice based on those elements warrants.
I would add Michelle Alexander into the mix.
I like Tulsi as well.
You could replace “female” in that first line with black, gay, immigrant, anything really, without raising offence… but if a white man said the same, it’s the end of the world.
As a non white immigrant, it is fascinating to see how the only group who are castigated for preferring their own culture, interests or like minded companions are straight white men….who incidentally have also invented, built or creates 90% of the modern world.
Trump is an embarrassment to white people.
Bismarck vs. Trump
Actually, not. Although he is crass, simple, naive, uneducated, I would have voted for him simply because he was anti-Establishment. For too long there has been a certain class of people who believe THEY are the ruling class. An incestuous lot, none of whom has ever felt the rough end of the stick, contemptuous of anyone who does not hold their narrow middle class, psuedo-liberal, quasi-democratic views. Politics to them is just a game of musical chairs. Sometimes they win, sometimes they don’t, but the losers are usually the working and lower middle classes whatever the administration.
Politics needs a bomb under it, and I had hoped that Trump might have a role in blowing the system asunder. In the end Establishment hostility and his own failings undermined him. But an embarrassment to me? No. Only to that obnoxious class who believe they have the right to run the country.
I respect the truth in this comment. It’s the truth of both Trump and Brexit. There’s a large swathe of people who don’t care about policies or economics or values. They just want to stick it to the ‘elites’ (a meaningless label you can attach to whoever you don’t like). They don’t care about bringing it all down, as long as they see pain in their ‘enemies’. There’s a malicious glee all over the Right, that I can’t quite fathom, since as this comment points out, they’re nearly as much the target as the Left. I’m trying to be optimistic that a post Trump world recognises this threat, and tries to fix it (though I’m not sure how).
On the contrary, it’s all about values, and the point I was trying to make was that Establishment values are not the values of the majority. This holds true for the UK, the US and the EU. This is why the governing classes are so unpopular.
I have no,idea why you think anybody who disagrees with you is on the “Right”. Most people have a mixture of beliefs and values which cut across the Right-Left divide. It’s the extremists with their rigid ideology that cannot see it.
I don’t think everybody who disagrees with me is on the right. I’m talking about the commenters here.
I have friends on the left who consider me an Islamophobe, a rampant capitalist and intolerant of sexual diversity.
Obviously I think they’re all wrong and I’m right.
(Having observed both sides, there is noticeably more glee and anger on the right, in my humble opinion)
There may well be a “malicious glee” though not widespread and not confined to one side of the fence from what I see.
What we are seeing is a reaction to a system that has become corrupt, corruption that we all have a responsibility to expose and demand better of.
There are strong warning signs of that corruption; criminalisation of speech (with the truth as no defense), an activist approach to journalism from a blatantly partisan media, denigration of foundational institutions and indoctrination and ideological homogeneity at the educational institutions. None of that bodes well for a functional democracy. Drain the swamp!
Agree with much of what you say about journalism and foundational institutions…but you would have to be willfully blind, deaf and stupid to consider Trump a solution to those problems, instead of someone who has massively increased them.
‘The swamp’ is another vague meaningless enemy (like elites) that allows everyone to hang their own specific grudges on.
Elites do not have grudges against other elites. And the swamp has no problem with the swamp.
Brexit was about economics, policies and values. That was the entire point. Every Brexit issue involved at least one of these three.
Someone an hour ago on this article told me Brexit was all about immigrants.
Do you think it would be possible for the right to get together and agree on what ‘Elites’ means, who lives in ‘The Swamp’ and why the Brits voted for Brexit ?
(Because it seems to me that they’ve no idea and are all talking about different things)
Immigration is an economic issue. It is also a values issue and immigration policy was a central Brexit issue. In fact, I doubt you could name a single Brexit issue not related to economics, policies or values. As these were, as I said, the point of Brexit.
Anyone who is not among the elites has no problem recognizing them. The swamp isn’t a place. It’s a mindset.
I agree; it was mostly about immigration and xenophobia.
Yeah, I really don’t think that I could apply the term “elite” to a school janitor who I disliked. Or I could, but not without becoming a laughingstock to many, and rightfully so.
You’re wrong. Most people who voted for Trump and Brexit didn’t like the path they were on and wanted to change direction within the only avenue left open to them: their democratic vote. Your picture of the ‘right’ is a caricature drawn up by a media class hostile to those who have a different vision to them.
I agree. I most wanted Trump’s polices,,particularly to get off the war train and I saw HRC as a continuation of the failed Bush/Obama years. We must recognize that we live in 2020, not 1945. The elites were never going to have that realization. Trump did. The minute he proposed bring US troops home, he had my vote. Just hope he can get more home before Jan 20.
Lots of white men would say they’d be happy to see a woman president. I’d also be perfectly happy to see a white male president. As I said, I don’t vote based on race or sex. And there are plenty of men who do not either.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not having a go at your statement per se, nothing wrong with what you said and would agree most people dont tend to vote based in race or sex.
Just struck me though that in today’s world, there is can inherent inconsistency built up. And reactions are based on who says something, rather than what is being said.
For some people, yes. But for the vast majority, I don’t believe that to be true. And you really can’t change people who vote based on someone’s race or sex. They have the right to do that even if many find it silly. In some sense I agree with the idea that people get what they vote for, how else do you explain places like California?
there will be a first elected woman president, but doubtful it’s Ivanka. Besides, we have Harris patiently waiting for Joe to drift into complete mental oblivion or be shoved aside when the media suddenly discover that Hunter was his bag man.
And which media will that be?
If democracy means anything surely it means not being ruled by someone just because their Dad did the job before. If the Americans are happy with the idea of hereditary rulers why did they bother with the War of Independence as they call it or the insurrection as we should call it.
Particularly when that is your ONLY asset. Leadership is both art and science. The art part one is born with, but the science… that takes work. Serious education. Broad experience. Ivanka has none of those, just the name Trump. Not happening.
Only a Brit could think you could be president without being elected. The president is not a king or queen. They all have to be elected. Another British quirk…..US Presidents do not rule, they govern. Again unlike kings and queens.
I can’t claim to understand the American political system but I have worked out that the hard bit is getting the nomination for either of your two major parties. After that it’s as much about how much the electorate hate your opponent as how much they love you. If anyone gets a clear run at the Presidency because a parent held the job I would that’s pretty undemocratic.
No, you certainly can’t claim to understand the US, that was my point. No one has ever been president “just because their dad did the job before”. That would be a hereditary position, like a king. We had that little run in with you guys because we did not want a monarch.
Now you alter your claim completely from someone being president just because their dad did the job before (monarchy) as in your original post to someone getting a “run” at the presidency, which totally destroys your first claim.
You spend too much time around political junkies (as does everyone here likely) if you believe it’s about how much the electorate hates your opponent or loves you. The vast majority of people are simply going about their lives, don’t hate or love any politician, and pay about a tenth as much attention to politics as anyone here.
In the UK Labour perade their “equality” but the Conservatives practice it by electing woman as their leader. I suspect the same thing will happen in USA. Democrtes will talk a good game, rant and rave at other but will not practice what they preach. On the other hand the Republican Party will elect the person most likely to win and if that’s a woman, then that is who will be their leader.
Um… I’m pretty sure the “Democrates” nominated a woman in 2016 who actually won the popular vote… but maybe I’m mistaken.
You mean she lost the election. We don’t have a popular vote election.
Yes they did, but she was not exactly a great candidate. Lets face it she is best remembered for calling anyone who disagreed with her “deplorable”. It’s not exactly a winning strategy to insult the electorate!!
In the US election system the popular vote is only a vanity thing. Clinton won Calafornia by more than her win in the popular vote. That is due to the way the population is disbursed, with the vast majority living in the sates that board the oceans. The system is designed to ensure that population density does not dominate the states in the middle.
Clinton was more a sop. I think the first female president will be a Republican!
Let’s give her the opportunity to say her piece, then treat her with somewhat less of the knee-jerk leftism applied her husband.
She’s had that opportunity, and the silence speaks volumes as her father does his best to engineer a coup d’etat in plain sight.
Ivanka Trump, Kim Kardashian, Nicki Minaj, Gwyneth Paltrow, Paris Hilton. So many great candidates, it’s a pity to just pick one.
Far more likely she ends up in jail than back in the white house
Listen, you friends: you are discussing serious and important matters here; but can you please learn how the apostrophe is used to indicate the plural? For instance, the Trump family are not “the Trump’s”, they are the Trumps.
Seconded. Precision and good grammar matter.
The apostrophe is NOT used to denote plurals but possession (or a missing letter or letters)
Anyone that knows her says she is empty; there is nothing there. Absolutely nothing.
Just like Kier?
Remind me again who had a career as a barrister, and ended up as DPP. Clearly not very bright or capable and they promoted him based on his hairstyle?! Say what you like about Keir, but please do not be silly and pretend he has not achieved a lot in his life. This is in contrast to Johnson who has been fired from 2 jobs and has lost track of the number of children he sired!
I was responding to the statement – “empty; there is nothing there. Absolutely nothing.” Starmer was supposed to be “ferensic” with a “laser like analysis”. As can be seen from PMQ’s he is neither, only able to operate of a script with no ability to respond to events as they unfold in the chaber. He
is a barrister working in a silent court were the witness must dance to his tune. In the HoC he has to be fleet of foot, he isn’t!
His current Covid policy is to agree with Sage, while holding onto a “get out of jail free” clause in the small print incase he is wrong. He was fundementally wrong on the circuit break lockdown which failed everywere it was tried yet he can’t or won’t hold up his hands!
-as if you know anyone that knows her…gossip is not news, TDS man.
Like Donald??
So much for the meritocracy.
It has been massively telegraphed that Kamala Harris will be the first female president.
I’m sure we can cross that bridge when we come to it, but Harris is not entitled to become President unless and until Biden resigns or dies. Biden is in pretty good health.
This article was talking about Ivanka Trump becoming the first female president. Biden looked like he had dementia throughout the campaign plus he is massively mired in the swamp he will do what is required of him and retire so the dems and the globalists can come in their panties and the poor old US electorate (and the rest of us) will be screwed again
Well, maybe physical health…
Trump and his family aren’t going away. Neither are some of his policies. Biden will rebadge them and give then a Democrat slant but they will remain because they are effective. For example its pretty clear that US and the West, cannot maintain their power if they give their jobs away to China. Its obvious now that borders and countries really matter. Covid has shown us that at least. Maintaining the endless unwinnable wars is also seen to pointles. Afghanis are never going to be Liberals or embrace Americanisms.
IMHO…Trump ( and covid) has change the US political direction for a long time to come.
I think you’re right. It will be hard for Biden to return to the failed policies of Obama. And I’m not sure that he will even want to, he isn’t Obama after all. Plus Trump remade the courts into a more constitution friendly branch of government which may stop Biden from doing an end-run around congress or the constitution.
I am surprised that Harris wasn’t mentioned as the first female US president. Biden surely won’t last 12 months before the dementia really sets in.
… the Harris woman will be el presidente before Q2/21 … the reds voted for her – not for him …
Surely the corrupt behaviour of Trump in pardoning all those imprisoned crooks who worked for him should warn us against having another Trump in the White House. And Trump’s disastrous (non) handling of the pandemic is another black mark against this family. Guilt by association definitely applies here as most of the Trumps work for the Donald.
Irrelevant perhaps, but that’s a hell of a photo – Ayn Rand channeling the madonna. Like an algorithm came up with a ‘Strong Female Leader’. Seriously, the more you look at it, the more you…understand.
Happy Xmas all!
Don Jr is actually the most likely to pick up the anti-establishment vote. Ivanka is all DemocRat.
Since when did the USA have a hereditary political class ?
They fought a revolutionary war to get away from that kind of thing over two centuries ago.
It’s not the blood relationships that is the threat, it’s the abuses of power. Many examples of blood relationships through the presidencies that were not a problem.
I think the photo of Ivanka at the UN, in a too small sweater with boobs thrusting and nips jutting, leaving nothing to the imagination, will excite the Proud Boy brigade. As it did, I’m sure, the satyric bureaucrats at the UN.
It sounds to me as if it got to you…
Fair play though; one does not see nearly enough instances of the adjective form of the companions of Bacchus in social media discourse. Well done, young palliard.
Fake boobs BTW.
You can vouch for this?
Yeah, like he ever got to screw in his loupe and examine the goods.
Nice work in that case.
Sounds like it did something for you as well.
I started off being appalled at Donald Trump but that slowly switched to horror at how he and his family were treated by the media. Anything he said was scoffed at regardless of merit. Words that had they come from Obama or Hilary would’ve been applauded. It was Trump who had the balls to try and resolve the North Korean situation. He may also have done more for middle-east peace than his predecessors – time will tell.
America (and the world) needs Trump, they just don’t know it. The alternative could be chaos with the so called liberals ruining the country whilst being allowed to asset strip by the loony left on the basis they will be leaving it to the Marxists and Anarchists. “defund the police” in a heavily armed nation – are they lunatics?