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Armed Palestinian members of Hamas. (MAHMUD HAMS/AFP via Getty Images)
Gaza in spring is vertiginous. Half-bombed tower blocks dot the cityscape like broken Lego; satellite dishes cluster on roofs; the streets are thick with people. They drive cars and motorbikes and scooters. They ride horses and, occasionally, carts pulled by donkeys. They walk, talk and gesticulate; they smoke furiously.
Piles of rubble — the result of Israeli bombs — are interspersed with symbols of defiance. Murals of Palestinian resistance heroes adorn almost every surface; no one, it seems, is more popular than Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the former head of Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that runs Gaza, who was killed in an Israeli airstrike in 2004.
I was told, when I last visited, that another war was inevitable. And everywhere they reminded themselves of it. Driving through the city one day, I pulled up at a roundabout at the centre of which is a monument of a rocket. On it is painted the number R-160 — the Palestinian designation of the Chinese-designed and Syrian-made M-302 rocket. Cocked at a 45-degree angle, it points squarely at Israel.
Hamas rockets attacks and Israeli strikes have now entered their seventh day. Palestinian officials say at least 148 people have been killed in Gaza. Israel has reported 10 dead, including two children. The pattern of violence (strike counter and strike) and its accompanying rhetorical war (each side condemns the other and Twitter froths with uninformed hysteria) are timeless. But Hamas’s methods of violence are showing signs of evolution. And there is one overarching reason for that: Iran.
A guiding ideological goal of the Islamic Republic, especially in its first decade or so, has been to export its Islamic Revolution; it has courted Islamic across groups the region for almost 40 years. Iran supported Hamas from its beginnings in in 1987 as an offshoot of the Islamist group the Muslim Brotherhood. But it was only when the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) began to consider peace with Israel in the 1990s that their relationship really blossomed. Mousa Abu Marzouk, a Hamas leader, visited Tehran and reportedly extracted a promise of $30 million annually — as well as military training for thousands of Hamas activists at Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) bases in Iran and Lebanon.
When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 the relationship was sealed; Hamas’s victory in the 2006 Palestinian elections meant a terror group, supported by Tehran, was now in charge of Gaza. International aid dried up, so the Iranians pumped in money, and with it of course, an influence that was now unrivalled.
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SubscribeIt needs to be put in this simple way. If Hamas et al laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel did, there would be a bloodbath.
The settlements in the occupied West Bank have not stopped and the siege on Gaza has not stopped either. So it is less of a Chicken and Egg situation and more of an escalation of violence from, yes, both sides.
No one expected Czech, Polish or French partisans to lay down their arms and make peace with their occupiers during the second world war — once the occupation has ended then you’d have a point to criticize lack of progress toward peace.
I agree entirely. How long are we going to go on allowing Israel to continue this through a distorted lens? It’s a simple land grab by one group over another. We used to do it all the time in the colonial era but I thought we’d got beyond it. The US is more than prepared to induce a civil war supporting heinous acts when it doesn’t like the freely elected regime in it’s back yard (Nicaragua) and funnily enough Iran doesn’t like something similar. Only this one has Nuclear weapons and has the complete support of the major powers that exploited its own country for years.
How is is that people can be so one sided in their view of Iran? We are happy for their intervention with IS yet we murder the man who led that campaign. We make deals with the likes of kidnappers who run states on the Arabian peninsula without a peep from our leaders. We publish negative or nearly negative news from Iran all the time.
I know they have not had the best of leaders over time but look at the vacuous, rhetoric shouting, rabble rousers we elect. And I know the Iranian leadership do utterly stupid self defeating stuff like taking Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe as a hostage but I can’t help thinking Bungling Boris has something to do with that. They really could do with a PR makeover.
If we are not friend with Iran. Why are we friends with the house of Saud. They both have oil.
A simple land grab? Hardly. The West Bank was occupied during the Six-Day War in 1967 in direct response to Jordanian attacks across the existing border. Since then, Israel has given up “land for peace” on several occasions but peace has not come. Why? Because Iran does not want peace.
The land for peace offers have been far from sufficient. Offer a coherent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital and I think you will get a positive response from the Palestinians. The Arab World has already said it would accept 1967 boundaries. Hamas would either accept it, or lose legitimacy.
How would the Arabs employ themselves at peace? They have proven they can’t do much other than fight & kill.
Not criticising your general point but not sure ‘Arab world’ means that much any more. Too much of the narrative is portrayed as Arab vs Jew when it’s not really an accurate portrayal of what’s going on. The UAE, Bahrain or Saudi Arabian governments have arguably more interests in common with the Israeli government than with the IranIan government Palestinian authorities or Lebanese government.
Portraying the power politics of the region in ethnic terms plays into the hands of those who exploit both Jew and Arab hatred for their own benefit.
Spot on. The Abraham Accords have solidified this.
Nonsense. No Palestinian leader will accept anything less than the whole land of Israel
Well, Arafat didn‘t accept any compromise. Iran will never accept a Jewish State and their official foreign policy is to destroy Israel.
1978 Peace agreement has been broken by both sides .Israel builds in West bank, Hamas uses every country to shell Israel……but Trying to intimidate People in finchley,Golders green & Manchester will backfire on loony muslim militants here ,Go &live in IraQ,Iran,Egypt,Jordan,Syria if its so perfect
What legitimacy has it got to lose? As the article says, it’s largely funded by Iran, which isn’t part of the “Arab World.”
The Arab World has already said it would accept 1967 boundaries.
Omission of truth. They would only accept this with right of return. You may as well ask the jews to commit collective suicide.
Wel they WOULD have to return stolen property, yes. Is that why you say they would commit suicide ?
Hello. Israel started the 1967 war precisely so they could gain more territory. Ask Miko Peled, the son of one of the Israeli generals who came to regret what he had been a part of doing. The whole Peled family became peace activists and those remaining still are. “The General’s Son.” Look it up some time or hear Miko out on any number of YouTube presentations.
Anyone who quotes Peled is a raving loon.
Israel stared a war with Egypt so that it could grab the Sinai and then returned it to Egypt on the condition that Egypt stop attacking Israel? That makes sense to you?
Self hating Israelis are not unique. We have all seen self hating Brits and self hating Americans. But you don’t take them seriously.
Hamas has done Palestine no favours. A tragedy that they were elected. Does the following observation better explains why peace has never come than yours? ‘Laws Violated: Israel has violated 28 resolutions of the United Nations Security Council (which are legally binding on member-nations U.N. Charter, Article 25 (1945); a few sample resolutions – 54, 111, 233, 234, 236, 248, 250, 252, 256, 262, 267, 270, 280, 285, 298, 313, 316, 468, 476, etc.’
I love the ‘etc’…..
If you read the peace negotiations in the 90s between Arafat (PLO), Israel and US everything was on the table including a big chunk of the Westbank. Israel wanted to keep some of the territory for security reasons. But Arafat said no. Basically he didn‘t want the existence of a Jewish State.
Anti-semitic alert : characteristing and delegitimising the whole of Israel as a ‘landgrab”.
I find it incredible that intelligent people can’t see how an imprisoned and provoked people will lash out from time to time. Gaza is a chained dog that Israel says must be shot because it bites the foot that kicks it. Meanwhile I wait with pleasure the replies of comfortable and well-off ‘liberal’ commentators listing the reasons why it is OK to evict people from their homes because of their ethnicity.
Finally commentators to the very pro-Israel NYTimes are getting fed up and beginning to say enough. It is the first time in years since a commentator even remotely sympathetic to the Palestinians has been allowed into the comments section. I am hopeful that this time, the actions of Israel are so outrageous that even the Times’ readers can no longer ignore them.
The NY Times has not been pro Israel for a while now and less so since 2016.
The secular Jews that run the NYTimes and a good many secular Jews in NYCity don’t care about Israel. They are non-practicing.They have abandoned the religion. It’s true. They are only ethnically ‘Jews’. Today in the USA, most liberal Jews’ ideology or religion is Progressivism.
Ha! As if ethnicity has ever been anything less than the pre-eminent source of conflict! I think in the case of NY “secular Jews” we mean ..ethnicity-plus!
What is so outrageous about a country defending itself against terrorist attack?
It is Jews! Hundreds of thousands of Muslim children being bombed and starved by other muslims in Iraq, Syria, Yemen never brings these worthies out in their enraged incarnations.
Silly person alert. The Grey lady is pretty resolutely anti Israel. That one hopes for a solution to a geopolitical issue by comments in a biased news paper indicates a less than firm tether to reality.
“Finally commentators to the very pro-Israel NYTimes”
best laugh of the day
DO note, that the evictions that sparked this outbreak of war were from properties that are owned by Jews. The Arabs stopped paying rent. In any other place on earth you’d be booted if you can’t or won’t pay your bills.
What about eviction based on land deeds and after a protracted 4 decade long battle in court? Gaza has a border with Egypt and need not be ‘imprisoned’. They are a feckless lot with foreign money spent on rockets but not decent schools and hospitals. They are lucky to have the Jews instead of say China, or Russia as their enemy. They would have been properly wiped out then. Does you heart only bleed for Gaza? Why not West Papua?
Muslims will not take kindly to being compared to unclean dogs. But that the palestinians bite the hands that feed them is true. Ask Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait and Syria.
The settlements are a message that Israel will bring about an end to this either by settling all of the land and making it Israel with Arab citizens or by making peace with moderate leaders. The sooner it comes the bigger the Arab state will be. Nobody is going to stop them first because because everyone can see that being an Arab citizen of Israel is probably better than being an Arab citizen of Lebanon or Syria or Iran (especially if your gay or female) and second because only the Iranians want to see more actual country hellholes like Lebanon, Syria and Yemen as opposed to just regions like Gaza. Given what has happened there (Sunnis ruled by Shiites) who would suggest that Israel retreat again from any area without some reassurance that the same thing will not happen again?
Oh and by the way a lot of the French, Czechs, Polish Hungarians, Austrians etc collaborated or at least accepted very few (under 5%) were actual partisans.
NIce idea, but no Israeli will have a 50% Arab Israel.
Either Arabs magically disappear from the area Israel now controls, or the two sides come to some agreement that will make both very unhappy.
No other options.
Exactly. It’s ethnonationalism — the exact same kind the very same people who support Israel don’t want to happen in England or America. Interesting, isn’t it!
Ethnonationalism is a thing whether globalists like it or not. Japanese or Polish people would like their countries’ ethnic make up to be reflected in its political character. There is however ethnosupremacy – like in Malaysia with state mandated racial discrimination – which you self selected human rights warriors NEVER address. What more the religious supremacy, nay fascism, of dozens of muslim states! Interesting isnt it?
Surely not 5% of Austrians were ‘partisans’?
More like 0.001% at the very most.
As Abba Eban once said. the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity
the entire Middle East is under muslim occupation and has been for between 1,400 and 500 years, including asia minor etc with disastrous consequences for non-muslims in those areas – 2 million butchered Armenian christians is only one example. If your analogy was correct, the Palestinians are the germans in this particular example.
Antisemitic alert : comparing Jews in Israel to Nazi invasion forces in WW2
THe bloodbath IS happening, and it’s the regular Israeli sadistic “mowing the lawn” in Gaza, the only outright war crimes which the West tolerates (approves).
That’s just straight out of your bigoted imagination.
Hamas fired the first rockets and then keeps doing it. What is Israel supposed to do ?
Hamas and Israel are manipulating the conflict for political ends. Israel uses disproportionate force to punish Gaza and to deter any future attacks. While Hamas fires rockets to shore up its position as the only Palestinian faction willing to aggressively challenge Israeli advances. Mahmoud Abbas has effectively been sidelined throughout this crisis. Both sides do not care about civilian casualties, unless it harms their strategic goals.
You say what is Israel supposed to do but what is Hamas supposed to do? The group needs leverage of some kind as it’s the only way to force Israel to make concessions. All diplomatic efforts have failed and Israel retains strong support from the United States of America. Palestinians are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Non-violence and diplomacy have failed and aggressive military action has also yielded little positive change. Israel is content maintaining a status quo of low level and sporadic attacks that only for brief moments seriously disrupt normal life for their citizens and so long as casualties disproportionately fall on Palestinians then that is an acceptable price to pay, of course it’s not Israeli’s paying that price in the main. It cannot and will not last but there is little leverage to force either side to make meaningful concessions for the time being.
What is Hamas supposed to do? Dropping its constitution that says Israel must be wiped from the map and all Jews exterminated would be a good start. Otherwise, what is there for Israel to negotiate over?
Israel continues to blockade Gaza and build ever more settlements in the West Bank. Hamas rightly perceive that force is more powerful than diplomacy without any leverage whatsoever.
I’m assuming you would like a negotiated peace, Zach. How can that come about unless both sides seek it? The chances of Israel succumbing to Hamas force is zero because Hamas will not stop until the Israelis are driven into the sea.
Israel is ethnically cleansing the land of Palestinians via building ever more settlements in land supposed to be for a Palestinian state. A negotiated peace would require significant concessions from Israel and their population is not ready to make that sacrifice because there’s scarce reason to do so. My point is that blaming the Palestinians for this situation is silly. There’s little they can do through diplomacy or violence to stop their demise. That doesn’t mean they’ll stop trying.
Ethnic cleansing is when population numbers fall. It may be happening in Xinjiang where the birthrate has dramatically fallen and actual internment camps exist. No impassioned marches against China by all the bleating white liberals. Not sexy enough a cause?
China isn’t seriously considered a ‘Western Style Democracy’. If a country makes that claim and expects to be taken seriously it can expect examination.
What makes you think that I’m not extremely critical of a nightmarish totalitarian state like China? The lack of marches is because China tightly controls media coverage. We see visceral images of dying children in Gaza and it ignites passions, understandably. Nonetheless, both are immoral and shouting what about this is poor defence of Israeli action.
There has always been a Jewish presence in the West Bank.
The expanding settlements make a 2-state solution unworkable. This denial of statehood is the root cause of the conflict.
No. The existence of Israel is the root cause.
Agree absolutely Zach
While Israel could wipe the Palestinians off the map if it wanted to, it doesn’t.
As to Hamas stopping the violence, perhaps they don’t mind losing lots of people. You cannot prevent people from committing suicide.
The settlements in the West Bank have nothing to do with Gaza, which was completely emptied of all Israeli presence in 2005. And Egypt blockades Gaza too. Why isn’t Hamas also firing rockets at Cairo?
It hasn’t been more powerful so far. All it’s done is get a lot of their own people killed.
I think you will find that Israel cares a great deal about civilian casualties unlike Iran and Hammas. I do not accept that “Palestinians are stuck between a rock and a hard place”. Being an Israeli Arab is not a hard place it is probably better than being a Arab/African/Asian in Europe and certainly better than being Iranian even if your not female or gay.
If Israel cared more about civilians than it’s own strategic goals then it wouldn’t drop 1,000lb bombs in high density civilian neighbourhoods. Please, do not respond with euphemistic military language of ‘precision strikes’ and ‘collateral damage’.
The rest of your comment is plain racism and not worth engaging with.
The Iranian Shiite Hamas entryists use the Sunni Arabs as human shields and you fall for it.
My previous comment clearly states that Hamas do not care about civilian casualties. Neither do Israel who consider civilian casualties an acceptable price in pursuit of their strategic objectives.
No they do care just not enough to get pushed into the Sea which is why most Israelis go into the army and accept with a heavy heart the consequences of fighting for what is right. Sure its ugly but not a ugly as the available alternatives.
The IDF ‘accept with a heavy heart’ the death of hundreds of innocent civilians caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. The IDF use disproportionate force as a strategy. Civilians are only spoken about in meetings because of the massive media coverage. Negative media coverage eventually pressures Israel’s allies to pressure them to bring hostilities to a close. It’s a well trodden path that all recent outbreaks of violence have predictably followed.
Get some proportion man 400,000 dead in Syria.
The Golden Horde killed even more people but we are not speaking about that. Stay on topic and stop being dishonest.
You Know what Zach you are right. Yes “The IDF use disproportionate force as a strategy” its called being stronger than your enemy a strategy for survival. Have a read of Unherd Peter Franklin Article on the Psychic Powers of the Contemporary left. He is writing about you.
Ok so we agree then. You just choose to use euphemistic language to hide the human toll of the actions you support. How about being honest?
You do know that the Palestinian casualties could be much higher if that’s what Israel wanted, don’t you?
If that were true there would be many more Palestinian civilian casualties.
Perhaps Hamas shouldnt fire from behind their women and kids? One side definitely glories in photo opportunities of dead babies to rouse the ummah.
Anti-Israel obsessives self-project by calling others racists. You are the real bigot. You have vastly different expectations for behaviour based on ethnic origin.
Nonsense. I condemn both sides. What I dislike is the blatant racism and bias in this forum.
Let’s hear your condemnation of Hamas and the Palestinians then.
The Israelis give plenty of warning so people can evacuate, which is why under 200 people have been killed so far, instead of thousands. It’s why everyone was able to get out of that highrise that Hamas operations and the AP offices were in, before it came down.
They are military strikes because Hamas uses these civilian areas as military bases and launches missles from them, as a strategy. They want to maximize civilian casualities on their side.
really ……what nonsense
“Israel uses disproportionate force to punish Gaza and to deter any future attacks.”
This isn’t even logical. How can it be disproportionate force if the intent is to deter future attacks?
you likely meant the necessary force required to deter any future attacks. If not, explain how whatever you determine would be proportionate force would accomplish the goal of deterring future attacks?
OH you were there,What is Israel well it could consider to stop taking homes of the natives and except they took someone country and land.Then try to make peace,and they could dig up the mass graves and bury them.
they fired them in response to the actions of the israeli police and army who were attacking peaceful palestinians
Peaceful Palestinians? They were rioting. Even if they have valid grievances, that does not excuse an act of war, i.e. the firing of rockets into Israel.
The ‘peaceful’ sort who pile up rocks and molotov cocktails in their most holy sanctuary.
Police have also been attacking peaceful anti-lockdown protesters here in Canada but neighbouring countries are not firing missles at it “in response”.
In case you haven’t looked at a map recently, Gaza is a good distance away from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, where all that unrest was going on.
And the missiles fired by Hamas are as likely to kill Palestinian and Israeli Arabs, including those “peaceful protesters”. So it seems an odd way of showing their concern.
You probably won’t get an answer to that perfectly reasonable question, but if they the Hamas apologists were honest it would be “Stop existing.”
Stop taking Palestinian land?
There is no country called Palestine.
They are people and have the right to live on their land.
it takes quite the imagination to think that the instigator is the party in the right. Israel signed one deal after another with multiple Arab states. None of them mentioned the Palestinians because none of them care about a group bent on pursuing grievances in perpetuity.
Palestinians have been under military occupation for 70 years, Israel has no claim to victim status. End the occupation, remove all illegal colonists to the agreed international borders, which btw Israel has never acknowledged because they have not finished stealing the land of others. Do you know nothing of the history of that racist murderous entity?
how do you occupy a non-existent place? There is no nation called Palestine. There never has been. Even before 1948, no such country was on the map. You hate the Jews. Got it. You carry the water of those who hide behind women and kids and routinely kill civilians.
How is it even possible to discuss the issue when “the Jews” are conflated with “the state of Israel?”
Israel is a Jewish state, is it not? That doesn’t mean all Jews are supportive; many are not. In the US, they are unfailingly Democrats. But let’s not pretend religion is a non-issue here.
So, when Israel defines itself as a nation for the Jewish People is that for religious Jews or ethnic Jews? I understood it to mean both – with religion being the lesser of the two in importance.
You see that is why Anti Zionism is Antisemitism. To deny a faith any homeland which it had once just because other faiths want another or more homeland is racist. The two are connected bit like Rome and Catholics.
I’d challenge that. What’s the moral rationale for saying a faith needs a homeland? I can accept people of all faiths and none need to be able to feel safe where they live but no faith should have the right to make a particular patch of land exclusively theirs or deny other faiths (or ethnicities, depending on which way people are being defined) the right to share that patch of land as equals because of their faith or ethnicity.
Make that argument to scores of “muslim” nations first before you do it to the single nation founded as a refuge for an eternal and most persecuted minority after a surgical attempt to wipe them out..you are obscene.
The Israeli government proclaims itself the only democracy in the Middle East – it is expected to behave accordingly.
If the Israeli government expects to be held to the same standard as, say Iran or Syria, fair enough. Those countries are sanctioned.
‘There is no nation called Palestine.’
This seems to be lost on the Hamas apologists. Palestine was a term coined by the Romans to describe a geographical area.There has never been an independent state of Palestine in all of recorded history.
There was no nation called USA or Germany until pretty recently. And no Israel for 2000 years. Is there a particular cut off date at which you allow or disallow the creation or re-creation of nations?
No, there is no cut-off date. I’m just setting right the Hamas apologists who think that the Arabs have a better right to live in that geographical area than the Jews.
Both USA and Germany came into existence by right of conquest. Israel in fact has a better claim as it was voted into existence by a majority vote at the UN.
Israel’s nation status was established by right of conquest in 1948, then agreed by USA and USSR, before being ratified by the UN. It would not have been possible for the UN to ratify USA or German Nation Status.
If right of conquest is the standard for international relations we’re aspiring to then eternal war in the region looks pretty much inevitable. I’d hope for better.
South Sudan didn’t exist pre 2010. What’s your point?
Palestinians are pawns of the Arab powers that see advantage in their suffering. WWII was a primarily Western war with global implications. Whatever outcome was available to the Palestinians, Israelites and Arabs was going to be constrained by that reality. The Israelites accepted the two state solution. The Palestinians did not though I have never been able to satisfactorily understand just who rejected the terms offered.
Post Israel creation it is the Arabs who have been the aggressors, the Palestinians the victims as they have lost land and the opportunity to build a society.
Wonder what your answer would be, why the allies decided to give the whole of former East Germany (Silesia and East Prussia) to the neighbouring States (Poland and Soviet Russia). Back then the over 2 Million Germans from these territories had to find a new home in the West. Why are Palestinians still called refugees and can‘t integrate into the surrounding Arab States like Jordan, where the Queen is actually a Palestinian. Arafat had the chance in the 90s to resettle many Palestinians out of the refugee camps into a big chunk of the West Bank. Israel only wanted to keep some territory for security reason. Arafat said no… Read the protocol of these negotiations.
So What..Why have Syria,Yemen,Iran,IraQ,Oman,Emirate states NEVER offered Palestinians refuge? .If they did this,then We’d soon see whether these Wealthier Arab States really wanted Palestinian refugees or Continue to Ignore them,Same with Syrian..
What an absolutely moronic post.
Wow, take a chill pill and lie down.
That 70 years remark shows you for what you are : a would be genocider. Israel fights to survive because of people like you and your chums. I am not jewish btw but your type gives itself away so easily.
and Turkey bombing the Kurds? and China enslaving and killing Uyghurs???
and the Muslims being ethnically cleansed in Myanmar…?
Rohingya, not muslims. There are indian and Arakanese muslims living in peace in Myanmar. It’s good to know the details if you purport to care about these things.Yes, it is a BAD thing to ethnically cleanse the Rohingya.
The phrase ‘the West tolerates’ is the giveaway here. You believe the West is superior to both Jews and Arabs and should rule over them. It’s an arrogance tinged with racism and imperialistic desire.
You know what a pawn is, yes!
Have you ever been to Israel, Jerusalem in particular? Egypt, Cairo in particular?
Haven’t you ever once wondered why the Egypt-Gaza Barrier has never been removed?
Israel, that tiny bit of land ‘given’ which has always been surrounded by aggressors. Israeli youngsters having to join the army between school and University.
Please, do some deep research.
Or at the very least, read David’s article.
Such a simplistic view of things.
True, though.
Many things in life are simple. This is one of them. The Palestinians could choose to live in peace live civilized human beings, but they cannot abide the presence of Israel. How odd that multiple Arab states signed deals with the Jews, choosing to get on with life rather than fixate on death.
Hmm. Simple as long as you ignore all the complex bits. The deals made with other Arab states are western allies in western pockets. Hardly a civilised mob. And I suppose you would be happy living in a country occupied by foreign immigrants who stop you leaving, owning land (after they took yours from you), provide second class health care … oh the list goes on. Its exhausting.
So much for Unherd – this is just the same old twoddle thats been peddald for years. Racist clap trap. I could go to the Daily Mail for this.
Racist clap trap. Find a new talking point. You could put ten Israelies and ten Palestinians in a room, dressed alike, and virtually no one would be able to tell them apart.
One side is bent on the other’s destruction. And what country is “occupied by foreign immigrants”? Not Palestine, since it has never been a country, in large part due to the likes of the PLO, Fatah, and now, Hamas.
That reminds of that fabulous sketch in ‘The Life of Brian’ about Big Nose!
Please go. We don’t need your gibberish.
They wont. They live for these Palestine flareups like ghouls and then go into a feeding frenzy.
Anyone who disagrees with you is a racist, natch. I’d suggest look to the left for its increasing anti-semitism.
And I’m not quite sure why your absurd dismissal of the Gulf countries, which most certainly are not in Western pockets, whatever their undoubted faults, itself doesn’t count as racism.
Your position on ‘foreign immigrants’ meaning the Israeli population the vast majority who were born there, unlike the Palestinian ‘refugees’ (the great grand descendents of some people living there in 1948) is also revealing.
3.2m immigrants between 1948 and 2020 (according to the Jewish Virtual Library). Total population 9.7m of which 6.2m are Jewish in 2020. I wonder how many UK voters would encourage that level of immigration and accept being ruled by them (remember how vexed we got over the EU). Again. It’s incredible that the world sees Israelis as victims.
wholeheartedly agree
You would. Isnt the Al Guardian opening comments?
Such a dishonest interlocuter. They were not just ‘migrants’ like the lot in Calais your ilk love to emote over. They were refugees from the holocaust and later jews expelled and disposessed from the rest of the Mena.
Mark, you’re talking through your rear. Most land in Israel is public land, as it was before the Mandate. When it comes to private lands within the 1949 armistice land Arabs own more than Jews. No Jews own land in Gaza and the WB, as it is forbidden by Palestinian law.
Indeed, or the BBC, Times, Telegraph….etc.
My father was in Palestine at the end of the Mandate in 1946. He was there when Begin and Co blew up the King David Hotel killing 89 Bristish personnel and staff (now celebrated in Israel in part because they dressed as Arabs). He was there when Jewish terrorists hanged 3 British army sergeants. This was a shock to the Britsih personnel (and many Jews in the British Army) who had just liberated N.Europe and a number of concentration camps.
You would think this inconvenient stuff (sinking of the USS Liberty?) might temper the exaggerated love many posters on here have for the Apartheid state. But I think this is trumped by their intense dislike for anyone who is Muslim, whom they throw into one basket despite huge differences across those peoples.
…and that’s the real issue, no-one wants to forget the past, and so the future will always resemble the past.
Or we might just learn something….
I don’t agree with that. It’s if you don’t learn from the past that you repeat mistakes. Israelis ethnically cleansing Palestinians is a case in point.
Ipso Facto, no one learns from the past, and as I said, and so the future will always resemble the past.
And have a word with yourself (blinkered is the word that popped in to my mind). Israel, for all it’s faults and transgressions of UN resolutions, they are not “ethnically cleansing” Palestinians. Killing them, yes, but not “ethnically cleansing”.
But they are ethnically cleansing them, chasing them out of East Jerusalm and herding them into smaller and smaller areas. It’s pretty well the definition.
Absolutely agree with you Paul. Too many Israeli apologists here.
Explain how the ethnic cleansing of the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide and the Balkans in the 1990’s in anyway resembles what Israel is doing?
I’m no supporter of Israel’s policies, but calling something ethnic cleansing when it clearly isn’t does a dis-service to the real atrocities of ethnic cleansing that have occurred over the years.
And you clearly did not red the article.
You don’t understand the difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide. Back to your dictionary.
United Nations definition: Ethnic cleansing is the process of removing particular groups from a specific area based on race, nationality, religion and other identifying principals.
While ethnic cleansing doesn’t, by definition, involve the intent to kill a group, the resettlement of said people typically results in the loss of lives; genocide, however, focuses on the “intent to destroy.”
Ethnic cleansing is considered a crime against humanity. Unfortunately, Israel has been ethnic cleansing for years and will continue to do so unchallenged by Western countries.
I thought Mr. Santayana said exactly the reverse.
As you kindly introduced George Santayana* to this discussion let us
record his thoughts on the British Empire, written I think in about 1920.
“Never since the heroic days of Greece has the world had such a sweet, just, boyish master. It will be a black day for the human race when scientific blackguards, conspirators, churls, and fanatics manage to supplant him.”
Now that is praise indeed from a Spaniard, is it not?
(*1863-1952.)
I suppose one might have gotten a different opinion about that from the Irish, the Indians, the Cypriots, various African countries, and of course the very inhabitants of Palestine we’re sort of discussing. The good master is followed by the bad master, or maybe the master just takes his mask off. One can point out that in the very five-plus cases I mention, the inhabitants of the liberated regions then couldn’t wait to set about killing one another in great numbers, so it may be the good mastery wasn’t so good after all — or it could be that that is just bad old human nature, but it might also be that there was some element of ‘Divide et impera’ (recited in a public-scool accent) that contributed to the subsequent carnage.
Although the likes of Mary Beard would tend to disagree, I regard the Roman Empire to be the greatest Empire that the word has ever seen,
closely followed by our own.
Neither of course was a charity, but both brought inestimable benefits to mankind, too numerous sadly, to recall here.
The new American Empire, or Pax Americana, is showing signs of promise, despite its current very feeble, almost non existent leadership.
Was Trump their Caesar and Biden their Pompey?
No; our Caesar is still in the wings, waiting for his cue. It may not be a long wait.
If you like empires, and don’t mind the slaughter, you might want to consider the Mongols led by Genghis Khan. They reopened the Silk Road and generally practiced religious tolerance and local semi-autonomy — benevolent qualities not found much in our more recent world-conquerors.
I’m glad hear it! It can’t come soon enough!
Unfortunately Genghis Khan & Co were a rather short lived phenomena, even in China, and thus things quickly returned to corrupt normality.
Additionally he was rather vilified by the reputation of his predecessor Attila and his Huns in the fifth century.
Biden has less talent than or diplomacy than Timmy Mallet ,At least Trump tried to get Arab States on board,Even Richard Nixon did 1972-74 , Biden &his postal Fraud acolytes are useless &guaranteed to Pour oil on troubled waters..
Even to ask that question is surely an insult to Pompey.
Your forgot to mention that ‘they’ also booby-trapped the bodies of those hanged sergeants, (two not three incidentally) to impede recovery. Not a pleasant job in the heat of July.
However both our gallows* in Acre and Jerusalem were kept busy hanging Irgun & Stern Gang terrorists.
In fact the very unpleasant Begin only avoided the ‘drop’ because peace arrived!
(* Both are now National shrines and can, Covid permitting, be visited.)
I Know. Selective memory. My grandad was an Irish Guard in Palastine in 1936 supposedly keeping the peace. He was in the army cricket team so had special privileges. In that way he avoided patrols that could get very nasty. He was not a fan of settlers and would chuckle at the way reporting changed at the end of the last century as if they were the hard pressed freedom fighters who had never used terror to reach their aims.
I think the Arab leaders sided with the Nazis during WW2, so hardly surprising if the Israeli state hates Muslims.
The mark of the obsessive jew hater : mentions of King David and the USS liberty.
Nothing to do with Religion. Criticisms are directed to the State not the religion.
Yes, I know, factual history is a real inconvenience when you’re spreading myths…
Health care in Israel is the same for everyone. In the WB is run by the PNA. So, it might not be that good, but that’s because it’s under different jurisdictions. If you are an Arab in Israel, citizen or not, you’re entitled to the same health care as anyone else. If you are in the WB, however, you’re entitled to a different health care system. For Arabs, it is a question is where they have their residency. For Jews, it is Israeli hospitals or nothing.
Israel is occupied by refugees, most of whom were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries for being Jewish.
So they are taking it out on the Palestinians.
In part, yes, in part they’re defending themselves against an Islamic war of supremacy. But you’re not interested really. You just can’t get over the end of British Imperialism and that the Jews kicked the British out.
Oh, I have no problem with the fact that the British are no longer there. Idem India and so on. However I don’t agree at all with your analysis: this is about the theft of all historic Palestine, to be followed by the pushing out of Arabs to maintain numerical superiority. Just read what they themselves write; it’s all there.
I think you know it’s a lot more complicated than that. Israel is a refugee state founded for the security of Jews. If they become a numerical minority they will not be secure. They’re not even secure in London as we saw yesterday. It’s pretty obvious. You have to avoid looking not to see.
They’re as safe as anyone else in London: look at any statistics. Rude Tweets do not constitute threats to life. In passing, I deplore the shouting from the cars to which you refer.
The problem with your refugee state is that you created it where other people had been living for hundreds of years, created more refugees, and are not taking any responsibility – quite the opposite.
Only to a diseased mind.
That’s a reply to what?
Racist is a badge of honour for Alex Lekas and others like him.
It seems to me Zach from your comments that you spout antizionist anti-Semitism. I just cannot tell whether you are doing it from one of those leftist anti-Semitic positions like Corbyn, one of those Islamic anti-Semitic positions like the Ayatollahs or one of those old fashioned British anti-Semitic positions like Roald Dahl. Care to enlighten us?
My position is clear. Both sides in this conflict pursue political goals at the expense of civilians. I hate everything Hamas stands for. I am secular liberal so the notion of theocratic fascist state is reprehensible. Nonetheless, the Palestinian position is primarily the result of Israeli action. This forum and your comments is a morass of bigotry and racism. You ramble about how Arabs have it better than Africans and then have the gall to accuse me of anti-semitism because I called out your bias. You’re a joke.
Maybe they might if Israel turned on the water,the power and give back all the land took by Jewish settlements.
there is zero evidence to believe that would happen. Hamas, through its masters in Iran, remains committed to the same goal it has always pursued. And it’s willing to use its own people as cannon fodder.
Coming from you that is a compliment.
Hamas are only in power in Gaza. Palestinians in the West Bank are disarmed and living under an occupation and yet still more Israeli settlements are built in their territory legally and illegally under Israeli law and yet all with the protection of the IDF. These settlements will eventually make any 2-state solution impossible, which is their aim. If all Palestinians ceased all resistance they would cease to exist as a people. They would be subsumed into a religious state that does not safeguard their interests as a people.
The two-state solution is already impossible, apparently. Israel-Palestine are/is effectively one state, and the remaining issue is how the civil rights of the inhabitants are to be established and guaranteed. At present, neither side seems to be willing to work that out. The continued fighting must be seen as a good thing by the numerous foreign powers (the US, Iran, Turkey, Russia, etc.) that support the various contending parties, or they would act differently.
You are right. The 2-state solution is practically unworkable because of Israeli settlements. The future is extremely bleak for the Palestinian people. The rising neo-Ottoman Empire might have a thing or two to say in the next 25-50 years.
Well, if I were King of the Palestinian Arabs, I would tell my people to say to the Israelis, “All right; you wanted us, you’ve got us. We are yours and correspondingly you are ours. Now let’s talk about our inheritance and our rights in this marriage you’ve insisted on.” Because that’s what taking over the land amounts to. The indefinite expansion of an ethnically-based state seems to contradict itself unless, like the US, you’re going to either assimilate or exterminate the natives, but I suppose it’s not my business.
In other news, for like reasons, I am not much of a believer in the reinflation of the either the Ottoman or the Persian empires.
Another expert with a crystal ball
What never seems to be discussed is something that has puzzled me for years, which is this. If Hamas somehow got its way and Israel left the West Bank, that territory would immediately turn into a version of Yemen or Saudi Arabia or indeed Iran overnight: a benighted, totalitarian, fundamentalist 54ithole at best, an actual outlaw, bandit state at worst (my money would be on the latter).
Meanwhile, and consequently, the existential threats to Israel would, of course, continue, because Jews.
How would that be better for anyone living in the West Bank or in Israel?
You mean if the Palestinian people were allowed to live in a sovereign and independent nation and not under an apartheid regime?
Are you asking if a nation of people should be permitted to live in a sovereign state?
Wow, the tone deafness is astounding. Please explain how a Jew would fare in the Pali’s “sovereign nation”? Less comfortably than a Palestinian in Israel. But, congrats on parroting the “apartheid” talking point.
The West Bank isn’t Israel and has no Israeli citizens, and the well-being of fictitious people who don’t exist are immaterial to the discussion.
remind me how Israel came into possession of the West Bank. History shows there was this dustup back in ’67. It’s almost like there is a common thread here, one of attacking Israel for daring to exist.
Do you think that the nation of Jewish people “should be permitted to live in a sovereign state”
I do not claim this is simple – but you really asked for that one.
Of course I think Israel (1) exists and (2) is sovereign. There is nothing to say about permission because they already have it. Palestinians do not.
OK.
What is your view on Catalonia?
That’s just straight out of your bigoted imagination. Palestinian women are educated, they don’t wear the burka, and the Saudis (Israel’s ally) are no friends to the Palestinians and vice versa.
Typically for Israel Apartheid apologists, you project your imagination onto a people of whom you know very little (threats, hate etc), while ignoring the reality of the situation, that the destroying and ethnic cleansing is being done by the Israeli occupation, not by the Palestinians of your lurid imagination.
That’s just straight out of your bigoted imagination.
it increasingly appears that no Arabs are friends of the Palestinians. Why do you suppose that is? Muslims live freely in Israel. How many Jews can say the same about life under Palestinian authority?
Which Arabs are those — Egypt, UAE, Bahrain, Jordan, and Saudi… the ones beholden to and vassals of the US? I wonder why they don’t support Palestine any more…
Any more? They’ve had 50 years + in which to provide support. But, sure; vassals. What else could it be.
The border between Egypt’s Sinai and Gaza was shut by the US-backed Hosni Mubarak, after his getting deposed the Morsi government (Muslim Brotherhood, not US-backed) opened the border with Gaza in c. 2011, then after his getting deposed the US and Saudi-backed Sisi government shut the border with Gaza again.
Notice a pattern?
Mubarak was pretty much forced out under Obama, who I believe was a US president. Again, this conflict has gone on for decades. It’s like some Arabs think Hamas has no more interest in peace than the PLO did.
The PLO did want peace, as does Hamas. But your version of peace is: stop shooting at us and accept subjugation in your own lands. Peace AND justice are necessary here.
Empty Vassals make more noise?…
The despots have all been bought off, yes, I know. No Jews need live under the PA, because they just steal the land from under them (colonies) and prevent the Palestinians from returning. As for “equal rights” in Israel: only in your imagination.
The point remains – there are Muslims who live and work in Israel, including as cops and in other capacities. There are no Jews doing that on the other side. The Palestinians have shot down every two-state solution proposed because they cannot tolerate the presence of the other state.
You are creating a straw man with this. No Israeli needs or wants to live among the Palestinians, because the have Israel and the settlements. As you know, if they could push out the 20% of Israeli Arabs – they would do it tomorrow! Not sure who would then clean their toilets and streets, but I’m sure they’ll come up with something.
the same people who cleaned their streets and toilets before. They can do it themselves, but nice to see that you think Palestinians are not fit for anything further up the food chain.
Palestinians could Palestine, if not for their obstinate leadership. You keep ignoring their refusal to go along with two-state solutions.
They could Palestine with what? The ten acres of arid desert you are willing to leave them of historic Palestine?
From an Israeli economic publication:
“On the social-economical level, the difficulties the Arab citizens face on the job market are a central factor in the economic disparity between Jews and Arabs—among the largest in the OECD countries—and to widespread poverty among the Arab population. Statistics show that approximately half of Arab families in Israel live below the poverty line (after taxes and transfer payments)1.”
“Desert”? Well, Israel managed to figure out how to grow food on arid land, so presumably the Palestinians can too. Most of the land of Israel, eg. the Negev in the south, is desert.
And what they were offered for a state (and rejected) two times was considerably more than “10 acres”. It was approximately the same amount of land Israel has.
As for Arab Israelis, plenty of Jewish Israelis are living under the poverty line too. Israel has its own cognitive elite like most countries do; they are the Ashkenazy Jews, descendents of Jews who migrated there from Russia and Europe starting in the 19th century. But at least 50 percent of Jews in Israel are not in that group; they are Sephardic, Mizrahi or Middle Eastern Jews, or Ethiopian Jews.
Obviously Israel is far from perfect. It has inequality and social problems, like all countries do. However, most Arab Israelis say they would not give up their Israeli citizenship to live in a Palestinian state, if one is created. So life there can’t be all that unbearable.
Realistically, the two state solution is dead. A Palestinian state is a terrible idea, both for Jews and Palestinians. The sooner Israel realises that, and ends special rights for people of one group, the better.
https://mondoweiss.net/2019/10/the-two-state-solution-is-a-cruel-delusion-and-an-idol-in-washington/
So I clicked on your link and was reminded of the old trope “opinions are like…” and the opinions expressed are especially repugnant. For example, “The answer is that Palestinians have experienced nothing but violence, disenfranchisement and diminution of their possessions throughout the two-state era. So they are the rightful leaders of this discussion. Their movement of nonviolent resistance has been inspiring internationally, in much the way that the civil rights and South African struggles once were, and the two-state consensus in Europe is beginning to fragment.”
Earlier a Democrat politician places ALL the blame on, you got it, Donald Trump. Amazing how a conflict of centuries duration became hopeless due to the shifting of liberal policies that FAILED for decades.
I will close by asking the same question I have asked before without satisfactory answer – who turned down the two state solution on behalf of the Palestinians?
If Jordan and Egypt hadn’t attacked Israel in 1967 and got soundly defeated, they would likely still be occupying the West Bank and Gaza now, and no-one would be bitching about it or the need for a “Palestinian state”.
From a distance it feels like the change in administration in the US is also part of the cause/calculations. Trump was steadfastedly ignoring the Palestinians, refusing to parley with the Iranians, and working to create Israeli-Arab accords – effectively isolating the Palestinians politically.
Now, with the Democrats this has been unwound. It feels like Palestinians are back banging the table and making noise and demands, perhaps sensing that the US and others are more willing to support giving them concessions. Israel is having none of it of course. But if Palestine regains influence (and possibly funds) internationally as a result, they might see the bigger picture as worth the act of throwing their toys out of the pram to provoke their neighbours.
I wonder if that might be the case for both sides. Ie. The Israeli government is also sending a message to the Democrats that this is what will happen if you don’t support us.
Those cunning Jews!
Weird comment. Obsessed a little?
It’s irony, Mr Wright!
It’s ok, in UK politics you’re allowed to use anti-semitic tropes just so long as you’re overtly pro-Israel.
I believe Biden did restore some funds to the Palestinians. And Trump wasn’t working to create Arab-Israeli accords, he actually got them signed.
Bill Clinton desperately sought to accomplish a Middle East peace deal to shore up his tarnished legacy. As his administration wound down hopeful word come forth that a deal was near but Arafat made last minute, unreasonable demands; http://www.thetower.org/0257-pres-clinton-arafat-turned-down-major-last-minute-israeli-concessions-in-2000/
Israeli concession do not bring peace.
“How Hamas became so deadly”, really?
Hamas is as feeble and pathetic as every other contemporary Islamic terror group. Experts at slaughtering the innocent, but otherwise an irritation that the West can easily endure.
Paradoxically, given that they possess many young men & women who are not afraid to die, they should be performing much better.
They should look to History and attempt to emulate their Nizari Ismaili* predecessors, the fabled Assassins. High profile, targeted assassination of the ‘mighty’ was their specialty, and they had a remarkably successful record, until they were exterminated by the Mongols.
As to Iran, it hasn’t done anything of any real military significance since Nader Shah sacked Delhi in 1739. Are the loony Ayatollahs really going to change that? If there is even the slightest whiff that they have a credible nuclear weapon, they will, (to possibly misquote USAAF General Curtis E LeMay,) “ be bombed back into the Stone Age. Does anyone seriously doubt this?
(* Also referred to as the Almat State, 1090- 1275 AD).
If i recall correctly the original Old Man of the Mountain – Hassan Al Sabbah, and his followers, gave us the term hashashin. From this root we derived the term Assassin, whereas hashashin means an habitual or heavy user of cannabis. That plus the widespread belief that Almat soldiers were in a “friends with benefits” arrangement when on campaign or holed up in their mountain monasteries probably puts the mad mullahs off learning from them.
Their list of high profile victims was impressive, as was their preferred mode of attack.
Isn’t there also a theory that the ‘hashashin’ was used in the pejorative sense by their opponents?
Frankly killing innocent teenagers in the Manchester Arena will/has only generated complete and utter contempt for Islam.
Detonating oneself on the gates of the White House or even No 10, would be far more effective and generate far less revulsion, perhaps even applause in some quarters.
‘They’ might also recall that a rank amateur using the wrong calibre pistol, very nearly killed the US President thirty or so years ago, and before that JFK.
JFK was killed by MK Ultra project ,Lee Oswald was in CIA via Atsugi ,top secret military base &Language school in Japan..Sirhan (Who still has no memory of What really happened) shot from the front on june 5 1968 he wounded 8 people, ..Thane cesar (US security guard & Nixon supporter) Shot Robert Kennedy in head,back & right Armpit from the back which mortally wounded him..
Hassan-i Sabbah
Or even, Hassan as-Sabbāh.
Last word….Hassan Ibn al-Sabbah
🙂
Do you remember the Oslo Accords? The Norwegians had moderated secret talks between the Israelis and the PLO. The PLO secured autonomy in Gaza and the West Bank. This was the early 1990’s.
I remember being pleased with the this. The administration of George H.W. Bush made a point of putting aside its own peace initiatives. It has become weary of Palestinian and Israeli intransigence. But the Oslo Accords opened new possibilities.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians couldn’t coalesce around their gains. Hamas pushed the newly-created Palestinian Authority (PA) out of Gaza. And ever since then Hamas has been scrounging for money and munitions with which to terrorize folks on the other side of the wall. For 20 years now, Hamas would set off on these binges of launching rockets into Israel.
Meanwhile, in the West Bank Mahmoud Abbas was elected to lead the the PA for a four year term. That was like 2010 or so. And, yet, they’ve never had new elections.
It’s hard not to conclude that both Hamas and the PA have been less than reliable bargaining partners. And, so, my own orientation has flipped from rather more pro-Palestinian to pro-Israeli: If the Palestinians aren’t going to negotiate in good faith — if they’re just interested in pocketing gains and undermining their counterparties (the Israelis), then there will never be peace. So, we find ourselves watching an interminable sequence of t*t-for-tat retaliation. What can the Palestinians expect?
Well, they could see that peace prevailed once the money from Iran and even from the US had been cut. No money. No rockets. There was something approaching peace.
And, how did that happen. The Trump administration reversed the pro-Iran policies of the Obama administration. Peace prevailed. Hate ’em or love ’em, the Trump people were on to something, but now we are back to the demonstrably failed policies of the past. That is a tragedy.
And I suppose covering the West Bank with Israeli-only settlements, Israeli-only roads, was good faith?? That has made any idea of 2 states impossible, crystal clear from any map.
Any reading of history makes it very clear the Palestinians have never been offered anything they could accept; anything any rational person would accept.
They were offered bantustans where the Israeli military still had full control. They were never offered a State with contiguous borders, East Jerusalem as its capital and full control over land, air and sea. What idiot would accept such a play state when they have time, right and justice on their side?
Israel was never going to be able to hold the Palestinians under permanent occupation and it certainly cannot kill 6 million men, women and children. Neither can it drive them out. Occupied Palestine is dotted with illegal Jewish settlements, connected by Jew-only roads, but, to attack and drive out 4 million Palestinians, those settlements would need to be evacuated so as not to have Jewish settlers caught up in the carnage. That would immediately give the game away.
So, Israel is now hoist on its own petard with one option, just as South Africa faced, one state with equal rights for all. It is now inevitable and the only just solution to this colonial misery and mess.
That is rather the point, is it not? What could they accept? Would they be satisfied with anything less than total domination, in the long run?
“It’s hard not to conclude that both Hamas and the PA have been less than reliable bargaining partners”
yes and their internal squabbles have done much to prevent any of them being taken seriously as good faith negotiations partners.
And I agree that cutting the money for rockets was a great idea, attacks against Israel were greatly reduced. It’s no coincidence that they have started back up again under Biden. Sad for their kids but they don’t seem to mind throwing their own kids lives away.
Nothing will change until Israel ends the occupation. Israel is the aggressor and has been since 1947.
I wonder if the fundamentalist mullahs in Iran appreciate the delicious irony of them having a Manichean view of the world…
At heart, all fundamentalists are Manichean. The War against Evil (I think that was the one before the War on Terror and after the War on Drugs) are much the same. Binary black and white thinking will destroy us all if we let it.
True that.
btw I fear a war on disease now, specifically COVID, since people’s patience with the War on Drugs is pretty much run out. Who could argue with that? Endless opportunities for posturing politicians, ‘saves lives’, lots of money sloshing around, ..
It couldn’t overwhelm the iron dome before, but one day it may that’s what that article is saying. Iranian proxies around the Middle East gaining influence and power, whereas America’s changing demographics mean that it’s unwavering support for Israel may change within a generation or two
I doubt it. But let’s not pretend that Israel would be helpless without the US. Let’s also not forget that the Middle East has changed. It isn’t all about the Palestinians anymore. The Abraham accords shifted the focus to Iran. Countries care far more about their security than they care about the Palestinians. Iranians have NOT gained influence around the Middle East, they have lost influence to the point that countries are willing to make deals with Israel, including security and trade. That is a huge shift. The article fails to recognize it. Witness the comparatively low level of world condemnation of Israel’s defense this time.
I have to say that I don’t see a “comparatively low level of condemnation of Israel’s defence this around”. That statement has a smack of wishful thinking about it. Anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli statements and demonstrations are rife in England, and Germany, for example. Ignore them, if you wish, but there they are. I did note, however, from a report out today that the US vetoed several times in recent days a statement on the crisis from the UN Security Council. Presumably such a statement was calling on the Israelis to cease fire and sit down to negotiate. If so, it looks very much like Israel + US versus The Rest.
This situation is unsolvable in my view. I wish it were not so but it’s the tragedy of geography, religon and history gone mad and bad. However, seeing pro-Palestinians threaten Jews in London is not acceptable. I would feel the same if it were the other way around. Anyone who justifies that is A BIGOT.
It is important to remember not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews, and not all support the Israeli State. Equally, it is important to remember that Palestinians as Christians and Muslims are not all fanatics.
Unfortunately the Israeli State gives Jews and Judaism a bad name and more Jews, including Americans are coming to understand that reality.
The war crimes and human rights atrocities so often committed by Israel will taint followers of Judaism until the religion and its followers separate themselves from the Zionist State.
Totally agree.
Clearly the Palestinians need justice from Israel. Truism: the blatant inbalance of material dignity is a gift to Israel’s eternal enemies.
Like many others must do I find this so hard to deal with in my mind. You can’t ‘not have an opinon’ but I can understand why so many others actively ‘say nothing’. Much energy is required to take a genuine even-handed approach.
Why bother? The land has been fought over since before the Pharaoh’s and I dare say it will still being fought over in a millennia from now. Its not our conflict, and I don’t have a side.
Precisely :
“a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing.”
What an intractable mess. If only wartime Britain hadn’t been in such desperate need…
‘the best and perhaps the only way to induce the American President to come into the war was to secure the cooperation of Zionist Jews by promising them Palestine, and thus enlist and mobilize the hitherto unsuspectedly powerful forces of the Zionist Jews in America and elsewhere in favour of the Allies on a quid pro quo basis.’—Samuel Landman, Great Britain, the Jews, and Palestine
‘The Zionist leaders gave us a definite promise that, if the Allies committed themselves to a national home for the Jews in Palestine, they would do their best to rally Jewish sentiment and support throughout the world to the Allied cause. They kept their word.’—Lloyd George, in the report issued by the Palestine Royal Commission
Careful, these machinations are not normally supposed to be aired in public. See the Livingstone case, quote facts, get slammed.
Paul Wright—Good advice. It’s sometimes hard to resist shining a light into the darkness.
Paul Warburg*, the first chairman of the Federal Reserve was all too aware of how close to bankruptcy the UK was in 1916, and did much to facilitate our ‘rescue’ by the US.
We would repeat that performance in 1939-40.
(* Of the famous Counting House, ironically founded in Germany.)
And no-one ever explained why one religion alone, Judaism, had a right to a national home. And few even bothered to care what happened to the indigenous people of the land selected for this home, this religious theocracy which would give superior rights to followers of Judaism.
The irony is, if religions did have rights to land where their religion began then Iraq would be the place for Jews and Christians would have rights to Palestine.
One suspects a great deal of money and therefore power was underpinning the Zionist movement which was busy planning to colonise Palestine by 1890 and warning of dire consequences for European Jews if it did not happen, even though Hitler was a toddler.
There is the story and there is the backstory and in this backstory everyone, but Britain in particular, betrayed the Palestinian people.
What are the Israelis supposed to do? Lie down and let the Arabs walk all over them? It’s not going to happen and why should it?
Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East, and is entitled to defend itself against terrorists.
What are Palestinians suppose to do — keep getting butchered?
Thank God for the Irish who understand colonial military regimes and injustice.
(2) Irish Politician Destroys Israeli Ambassador – YouTube
Negotiate for peace and possibly land back. In good faith.
They are not getting butchered. They are attacking Israel and Israel is defending itself.
Your comment would be humorous if it were not so tragic.
Negotiate for peace? With what? The Palestinians are utterly powerless and the innocent victims. All power rests and has always rested with Israel the occupier.
More importantly, this issue is not about peace, it is about justice for the Palestinians killed and driven out by rampaging Zionist armies in 1947/48, to make way for Israeli colonists and the 6 million Palestinians crushed under colonial military rule and denied all rights. Israel has never apologised for the genocidal slaughter involved in its creation, nor given compensation for the land, homes, art, artefacts, possessions stolen from the Palestinians. Justice brings peace.
And with the fourth largest military on the planet, Israel is not defending itself, but crushing resistance to its occupation and continued colonisation. More and more people know the truth of Israel’s foundation and the nature of it as a colonial apartheid regime.
“Negotiate for peace? With what?”
Negotiate for peace with a promise not to attack. See Egypt for example.
of course Israel is defending itself. No country in the world would be expected to sit still while missile attacks are incoming.
An occupying power quelling the occupied does not fall into the definition of “defence”. Nope, not for one moment.
One wonders at the mental function of so many who support Israel and the ability they have to completely block out the reality that Israel is an occupying colonial power which holds all of Palestine and denies 6 million Palestinian human rights, civil rights, freedom and justice simply because they are Muslims and Christians.
The amazing thing is, beyond a couple of brief years, how patient and non-violent the Palestinians have been.
In truth they have right, justice, numbers and time on their side and Israel is destroying itself.
They shouldn’t provoke a fight, then they wouldn’t get killed.
One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist. The Palestinians have had their land, homes, possessions stolen by European colonists since 1947 in the name of the Israeli State.
Under the Geneva Conventions and UN Regulations they have every right to resist their occupiers and colonisers.
There are 6 million Palestinians, with 2 million in the Gaza prison, denied freedom, justice and human and civil rights by Israel and you call Israel a democratic country? Israel is an apartheid State and definitely not a democracy.
If it was right for the French and Poles to resist and fight their German occupiers, why the double standard for Palestine? Occupation is Occupation surely? Colonisation is colonisation? Theft of land and homes is theft?
Jews who lost homes, land possessions during the Second World War have been compensated hugely. Israel denies the same right to Christian and Muslim Palestinians.
In 1947 Zionist armies drove out or killed close to a million Palestinians, many of whom still languish in refugee camps, or rather their descendants do, denied the basic right of return which Israel claims for followers of Judaism but denies to people whose families lived in Palestine for a thousand years.
In 1947/48 Zionist armies ‘wiped from the face of the earth’ around 600 Palestinian villages and then built and planted over to hide them. However, they remain on British Mandate maps so we know where they were and where they are. And the Palestinians received how much compensation for that? ZERO.
The double standards on this issue beggar belief. Perhaps it is simply ignorance of history and reality.
What are the Israelis meant to do? Well, as the occupier and coloniser with all of the power they are meant to end the occupation, end colonisation and give freedom, justice and human and civil rights to the indigenous people of the land they have colonised.
If you spend time in Israel you will find it is increasingly Arab in culture so being Arab is not an issue and in fact never was an issue. What Israel rejects are not Arabs or even Palestinians because they offered Arab Palestinian Jews immediate citizenship in 1947. It rejects non-Jews and so Palestinian Christians and Muslims are considered to be inferior and denied any rights.
“What are the Israelis meant to do? Well, as the occupier and coloniser with all of the power they are meant to end the occupation, end colonisation and give freedom, justice and human and civil rights to the indigenous people of the land they have colonised.”
not if it threatens Israeli security.
I almost did laugh. ‘Not if it threatens Israeli security.’
sorry, but law and justice does not work like that and with the fourth largest military in the world, backed up by the Americans, it is a seriously delusional joke to claim the Palestinians are a threat to Israel.
All of this violence is about threat, certainly, but the only threat is that Palestinian Muslims and Christians exist in greater numbers than Israeli Jews and in a one-state solution they will be the majority.
The only ‘threat’ the backward theocracy of Israel has ever recognised is non-Jews. However, in a civilized democratic world that falls into the ‘tough luck’ basket.
If Israel were a civilized nation it would know that apartheid is unacceptable, occupation is primitive and cruel, and the indigenous people of the land they have stolen as colonists deserve the same rights as they have.
It has probably been made clear to Iran that any attempt to overwhelm Israel by the mullah’s proxies in Gaza (or Lebanon) would be met with a doubly effective attack on Teheran and other Iranian targets. Deterrence doesn’t apply only to nuclear weapons. Hezbollah alone has enough smart missiles to destroy Israel. There’s a reason it doesn’t do so.
The Iranians do not want to overwhelm Israel they just want to diminish the aggression of the Israeli State. And they want to stop the Israelis from constant assassinations of their citizens, particularly their scientists.
Iran does not want war, it just wants an end to Israeli threats, aggression and paranoid hegemony.
Yes, “it seems guaranteed that the innocent citizens of Israel and Palestine will continue to lose”, but I fear that if things go on like they are, the innocent citizens of Iran may lose, too. Israel has few options.
Israel is the occupier and has all of the power and all of the responsibility. Israel has all of the options and the Palestinians have none.
Although you are correct in a way because Israel has made two States impossible and now has only one option and that is to do what every other coloniser, at least the ones calling themselves democracies, have done and that is, create one state with equal rights for the indigenous people and their colonisers; a democracy where the native Palestinians share with the Israelis.
In this democracy all religions are also equal and are secondary to the State. Yes, Israel stops being a religious theocracy pretending to be a democracy but it also halts the debasement of its culture as a brutal occupier and coloniser.
As it is, many young Israelis are walking away from the apartheid State and returning to the countries from which their parents or grandparents came to colonise Palestine. One of the biggest communities is in Berlin and everyone should be happy about that healing example.
“Israel has all of the options and the Palestinians have none.”
sure they do. 1) stop attacking Israel, and 2) negotiate a deal.
You do have a sense of humour. Let’s get this straight, the French could have solved their problems being occupied by stopping their attacks on their occupiers, and, this bit is funny, negotiating a deal??????
The Palestinians have no power to negotiate regular water supplies let alone any deal with their massively powerful and militarily murderous occupier.
How about Israel stops attacking the Palestinians, sets them free, ends the occupation, takes down the checkpoints, removes Jew-only roads, opens the gates to the Gaza prison, turns off the electric fence and gives full human and civil rights to 6 million Palestinians?
That is a plan and it is justice.
I very much doubt that Israel would hesitate to ensure that Iran pays a steep price for supporting Hamas terror. It is well past time for Israel to remove all Hamas leaders. Crushing the tunnels where Hamas hides is the best, safest way to do that. Hamas is getting a lot of Palestinians killed.
Sooner or later a Hamas rocket will hit a sensitive spot and kill dozens or hundreds of Israelis. The Palestinians will celebrate for about a day…then the Israeli response will strike. The Gazans will really regret their hostility if Israel takes off the gloves and starts blasting Gaza with cluster munitions or napalm.
You are clearly unaware Israel does not wear any gloves when punishing the Palestinians for resisting occupation. Israel tests its weapons on the men, women and children imprisoned in Gaza and has used Phosphorus on them. Listen to what international medical aid workers have said.
In the recent protests in the Gaza prison, unarmed Palestinian men, women and children were shot by Israeli snipers sitting safely behind the electric fence. Doctors and nurses tending the wounded were also shot and killed as were journalists trying to cover these war crimes.
An alternative to killing young boys and men was to shoot them in the kneecap and thus cripple them permanently. Don’t take my word for it. Read the reports from Israeli Human Rights groups like B’Tselem and Peace Now and those from Israeli soldiers sickened by what they have been told to do, in Breaking the Silence.
The Palestinians make heroes out of people who kill young children with their bare hands. Fatah soldiers surrendered to Israelis after Hamas took over Gaza in order to keep from being killed. And as I wrote above, Israel is using only a fraction of its military and economic force against Hamas. If they started using cluster munitions, 500 lbs bombs and napalm on Gaza you would have hundreds of thousands of casualties.
Hamas is serving as a proxy for Iran. And Iran does not have the best interests of the region in mind as it sees chaos everywhere. Things are going to get worse as the Biden administration lifts sanctions. Iran will use its freed up capital to sew war in the region and finish developing a nuclear arsenal…then it will have even greater freedom to destabilize the region because what can you do? Threaten them too much and they will threaten nuclear war in response. You will see the other gulf states build their own nuclear arsenals…or ally with Israel to protect them (since the US under Biden sure as hell won’t).
Well, Jewish Israelis do not like fanatics making up nasty stories about them so why try the same ploy with Christian and Muslim Palestinians?
Justice is not about how nice someone is. Justice is justice.
Israel is a colonial entity, an apartheid State, which was set up in 1947 against the will of the Palestinian people. In fact the creation of Israel has never been tested in a court of law and it was certainly immoral. It would never be countenanced today.
However, many nations have been founded through colonisation and so one can accept Israel exists. However, it cannot exist as an apartheid state and it cannot continue to crush the indigenous Palestinians under its military boot for any reason.
Israel now occupies all of Palestine and continues to colonise it while denying 6 million Christian and Muslim Palestinians human and civil rights. That is the only issue which has any relevance. That is the justice and the principles for which millions fought and died in two world wars.
If occupation was wrong for France then occupation is wrong for everyone, including the Palestinians.
When you are defeated in a war you started, you don’t get land back until you negotiate for it. Sometimes you even lose land. See Germany. The Palestinians can never beat Israel militarily. They just lose many more lives.
How did the Palestinians start the war when it was Zionist colonists setting up a State called Israel in Palestine which was the start of all the conflict?
Do you truly believe if the Germans had succeeded in occupying and then colonising Britain and, 74 years on, the British lived as the Palestinians do under Israeli rule, and the British were resisting as the Palestinians are resisting, that the British would be blamed for ‘starting the war.’
Why the double standards?
See six day war. Egypt lost Gaza and the Sinai, Jordan lost the West Bank including East Jerusalem and Syria lost the Golan Heights.
The Germans did occupy parts of Europe and as a consequence lost land. When you lose, you don’t get handed back land without assurance that you won’t again attack. Sometimes the loss is permanent. See Germany land losses after WWI. Why would it be any different for Syria, Jordan and Egypt?
You miss the point but I suppose you must. Who gets what is not the point. The point was, is and remains that Israel has no right to hold 6 million Palestinians under brutal military colonial rule, denying them human and civil rights.
The Palestinians are the indigenous people of Occupied Palestine and what is now called Israel. They have rights and Israel denies those rights.
As to land, under international law, following the Second World War, no, you do not get the right to keep land taken in war.
However, as even Israeli historians have admitted and shown, the wars you cite were started by Israel in a bid to annexe more of Palestine.
Any court looking at the situation today would take into account that the UN had no moral right to partition Palestine in the first place; that the Palestinians had every right to resist and to call on their Allies to help as Britain would do if attacked; and that land lost in war does not belong to the victor but remains occupied.
Beyond the UN Mandate, never tested in a court of law, the only possibly legitimate borders Israel has still,are those UN Mandated borders. Everything else is occupied Palestine.
“Who gets what is not the point”
it’s entirely the point, why would it be any different for Syria, Egypt and Jordan than it was for Germany after WWI? Attack and lose, you’re probably going to lose land. It was never smart for Jordan, Egypt and Syria to attack Israel.
The Sinai was returned to Egypt in 1982. AFTER Egypt agreed during good faith negotiations not to attack Israel again. So it can be done. But not without good faith and agreement not to attack again.
Okay, since you seem to miss the point, let me clarify.
Let us take your view that Israel has the right to hold all land it has taken from the Palestinians in war.
So, while that is not the case, let us pretend that it is. Israel now occupies all of Palestine and considers it has a right to all of it.
What about the 6 million Palestinian Muslims and Christians who live there?
Does Israel in a modern world have the right to continue to hold 2 million of them in what is in essence a prison, Gaza and to crush the other 4 million behind apartheid walls, Jew-only roads and illegal Jewish settlements?
Even if the law said, sure, Israel has a right to all of the land it does not have the right to do what it is doing to the indigenous people of the land.
THAT IS THE POINT.
Name one other country calling itself a democracy and founded through colonisation, which treats its indigenous people as Israel treats the Palestinians.
THERE ARE NONE.
“Let us take your view that Israel has the right to hold all land it has taken from the Palestinians in war.”
not quite. Let me correct this for you. Israel has the right to hold all land taken from Jordan, Syria and Egypt in a defensive war until such time as they negotiate in good faith including agreement not to attack Israel again. See Egypt and the Sinai for example.
There is no country called Palestine. There COULD be if the conditions I mention above are met. If the people in Gaza want to live in peace they can stop attacking whenever they want to. Short of that, they will continue to lose lives at a great multiple of any casualties they can inflict on Israel.
ah, the Zionist propaganda there is no Palestine. I remain astonished at how seemingly intelligent people can believe such rubbish. The Palestine which never existed.
1. In 1947/48 Zionist armies killed or drove out a million Palestinians who did not exist.
2. In 1947/48 Zionist armies ‘wiped from the face of the earth’ but not British Mandate maps, between 500 and 600 Palestinians villages which did not exist.
3. The ancient Egyptians mentioned (nonexistent) Palestine and Palestinians some 5,000 years ago. They also mentioned, 3,000 years ago when a tribe called Judea wandered in and set up camp, colonists then and now, in Palestine.
4. The Crusades, 1095-1291 were fought in (nonexistent) Palestine
5. The Ottomans Occupied (nonexistent)Palestine for more than 300 years.
6. The British Occupied (nonexistent) Palestine
7. In the 19th century Palestine, albeit nonexistent supposedly, became famous for the Jaffa Orange, transported around the world.
8. The First World War was also fought in Palestine, even though apparently it did not exist – remember Beersheba.
9. In 1930 Golda Meir, later PM of Israel, addressed a postcard to a friend in Tel Aviv, Palestine, even though it did not exist.
10. The Second World War was also fought in this nonexistent Palestine.
11. Centuries of drawings and then photographs exist of the mythical, nonexistent Palestinians and their country.
12. In the late 19th century, around 1890 a political organisation called Zionism was set up with the goal of colonising Palestine, even though it did not exist, with Jews.
13. Ships sailed from Germany which co-operated with the Zionists in the 1930’s full of Jewish colonists for the mythical Palestine, which did not exist.
14. In 1947 the UN partitioned (nonexistent) Palestine so European colonists in the name of Judaism could set up their own religious State.
And yet you insist Palestine and the Palestinians never existed?
There is no country called Palestine. The six day war wasn’t between Israel and some fantasy country called Palestine. It was between Israel, and Jordan/Egypt/Syria.
I simply repeat, in 1947 European colonist sent armies into Palestine in order to create their State of Israel.
The Palestine the UN partitioned. That one. Around a million Palestinians were killed or driven out in 1947/48 and around 8million of their descendants are in the Diaspora and 6 million remain in Occupied Palestine.
To claim Palestine and Palestinians never existed is delusional. I shall leave you to your fantasies.
oh how we all remember that six day war in which Israel battled Palestinian troops. Wait….. it was Syrian troops and Egyptian troops and Jordanian troops, wasn’t it? There is no occupied Palestine. The people you call Palestinians are Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians. People those countries don’t want back, btw. Ever wondered why?
Annette. Give up please! And listen, open your mind and stop devouring Israeli propaganda
Devouring? Producing more like!!
So, let’s get this straight, No France or Germany existed because their Allies fought the war for them. I never knew that!!!
Perhaps the most ridiculous invention of the Zionists, beyond followers of Judaism being a people, is this idea that Palestine never existed.
Pray, how did those Zionist armies then manage to kill or drive out nearly a million people called Palestinians?
How did those armies manage to obliterate between 500 and 600 villages, lived in, wait for it, by Palestinians?
I mean, seriously.
In case you missed it, some historical facts, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt the country called Palestine existed and so did and does its people.
1. In 1947/48 Zionist armies killed or drove out close to a million Palestinians who did not exist.
2. In 1947/48 Zionist armies ‘wiped from the face of the earth’ but not British Mandate maps, between 500 and 600 Palestinians villages (which did not exist.) They were NOT in Jordan, Syria or Egypt, they were in PALESTINE.
3. The ancient Egyptians mentioned (nonexistent) Palestine and Palestinians some 5,000 years ago. They also mentioned, 3,000 years ago when a tribe called Judea wandered in and set up camp, colonists then and now, in Palestine.
4. The Crusades, 1095-1291 were fought in (nonexistent) Palestine
5. The Ottomans Occupied (nonexistent)Palestine for more than 300 years.
6. The British Occupied (nonexistent) Palestine
7. In the 19th century Palestine, albeit nonexistent supposedly, became famous for the Jaffa Orange, transported around the world.
8. The First World War was also fought in Palestine, even though apparently it did not exist – remember Beersheba.
9. In 1930 Golda Meir, later PM of Israel, addressed a postcard to a friend in Tel Aviv, Palestine, even though it did not exist.
10. The Second World War was also fought in this nonexistent Palestine.
11. Centuries of drawings and then photographs exist of the mythical, nonexistent Palestinians and their country.
12. In the late 19th century, around 1890 a political organisation called Zionism was set up with the goal of colonising Palestine, (even though it did not exist,) with Jews.
13. Ships sailed from Germany which co-operated with the Zionists in the 1930’s full of Jewish colonists for the mythical Palestine, (which did not exist.)
14. In 1947 the UN partitioned (nonexistent) Palestine so European colonists in the name of Judaism could set up their own religious State.
And yet you insist Palestine and the Palestinians never existed?
Perhaps discuss it with your therapist and if you don’t have one, it might be a good idea to get one.
Don’t feed this troll any more content.
Good idea. It’s kind of stunning that this level of anti Semitism would be allowed here though. I always assumed the Guardian had a lock on that. Quite how anyone could pretend that the 6 day war was between Israel and some imaginary country called Palestine rather than Syria, Egypt and Jordan is a mystery.
Criticising Israel is not anti-semitism.
Time for a new proof-reader, I fear?
The US solved Northern Ireland–after termendous resistance from both sides.
We know how to do this. Neither Israelis nor Palestinains do.
The longer we delay in making both sides very unhappy, the more lives will be lost.
The Palestinians have no power and the US always supports Israel and so it is a very biased intermediary which means it is pretty much useless.
As to Northern Ireland, let us remember that most of the appalling violence and terrorism happened because Irish-Americans were funding the IRA.
Indeed, little changes with Palestine where the US funds Israel’s State sanctioned terrorism against the indigenous people of the land it colonises.
The only way to bring justice is to turn off the money tap and force Israel to end the occupation, end apartheid and give full rights to the Palestinians including the human right of right of return.
I agree the Palestinians don’t, but Israel does. It solved its dispute including territory with Egypt in 1982. Egypt was willing to provide a guarantee that it would not attack Israel.
The woke have elevated “stolen land” on its petard, and, indigenous people the world over believe they have a right to take back what has been “stolen”. Land is the ultimate animator and provocateur, as permanent and telling as DNA. Bombs will not destroy it, only reinforce its legitimacy. Thus, neither Israel nor Palestine will go way. Permanent war.
Ironically, Hamas would probably not exist today were it not for Israeli authorities. The Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into their worst (or best) enemy.
This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev — who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s — told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists PLO, led by Yasser Arafat.
Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009 that back in the mid-1980s, Cohen wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play “divide-and-rule” in the Occupied Territories. Guess they should have listened to him.
Back in the 1970s, western conservatives were so eager to counter the Soviet Union that they supported Islamic movements across the globe.
In the same vein, they brought hundreds of thousands of Muslim immigrants to Europe with the aim to divide the proletariat and break the labor movement.
Political Islam is the spurious offspring of the market-worshipers. In their emphasis to counter the Red threat, they created an even bigger one.
It seems to me to be unfortunate that none of the Western media and left-wing activists ever seem to be able to explain how tacitly biased reporting or full-on rabid hysteria in favour of Palestinians would ever translate into anything other than some empathy or sympathy – at least until the next juicy bit about Harry and Megan.
As if there’s a chance that a massive and carefully stage-managed media blitz will force Western governments to flip sides. That’s simply never going to happen.
Even Canada, who’s progressive PM would seriously consider apologizing to reindeer for the suffering they endured at the hands of that slave-driver Santa Claus, has joined the list of like-minded nations declaring Hamas a terrorist organization.
Occasional “must you be quite so heavy-handed” criticism of Israel isn’t taken seriously because Israel invariably is responding to an attack – not initiating. Israel isn’t going away – at any time – ever. Israel will never get a serious slap about territorial disputes as long as they can claim they were “only defending themselves” – a claim made legitimate by foolish Palestinian attacks on a regular basis.
The only unknown in the equation is whether or not a Palestine in some shape or form will be permitted to peacefully co-exist. And that is up to the Palestinian people but the choices will hard and in many minds akin to a humiliating capitulation but that is the sad truth.
So the choices for a new map are:
There’s no point blathering on about historical grievances, however legitimate they may be or have been, because at this point they mean nothing.
No more attacks on Israel. No more links to Iran. No more Hamas.
Palestinians, not Israelis, will have to prove unequivocally that they are not in any way shape or form, in word or deed, a threat to Israel. It must be proven to Israel’s satisfaction. It must be proven to the West’s satisfaction. It would be naïve to think this would create a permanent mid-East love fest but at least a few more children might reach adulthood.
You said: Palestinians, not Israelis, will have to prove unequivocally that they are not in any way shape or form, in word or deed, a threat to Israel.
So, let’s get this straight, your principles say that the French Resistance should have proven that they are not in any way shape or form, word or deed, a threat to their occupier, Germany, before they deserved justice and freedom?
Why the double standards for the Palestinians. Israel has the fourth largest army in the world and the occupied Palestinians are powerless and crushed under its boot. And you demand they take responsibility?
Name one other colonised people who were ever told they could not have freedom or justice until they took full responsibility for their plight and comforted their massively armed occupier that they could never be a threat? There are none, I assure you.
Under the Geneva Conventions the Palestinians have every right to fight for freedom and the Israelis have full responsibility for everything which happens, all of the violence and the welfare of the Palestinians.
The double standards on this issue are horrific.
There is no future, for Israel, in a continuation of this war, or even in an ending of it, because there will be another war, next time probably with an overwhelming of Israeli defences. That’s because the Iranians and their proxies (in this case, Hamas) will never give up. The only possibility for a sustainable improvement, security for Israel and prosperity where there is now desolation, is an agreement between all parties, including Iran and Hamas. Such an agreement must be policed in good faith by the US (for Israel), Russia in good faith for Iran, China the UK and France in good faith for everybody else. That’s the only way forward. The problem is local, the solution is global.
Keep up the Russians are not on good terms with Iran they are more or less fighting each other in Syria.
And this will probably take a good hundred, perhaps two hundred years. Hamas make the IRA and the UVF look like rational, moderate men of reason.
Then Israel will be living in terror for the next one hundred, maybe two hundred years.
Iran irrational entity show ones more the fundament ideology than moved is ayatollahs,,conquering &control Muslim world.
The price of that is pay for ordinary arabs,in Gaza&Lebanon,in the middle east.
Progresives&leftist like Jeremy Corbyn, are the best representation of racist ideology,,were mention my friends of Iran&Hamas.
Is a conflict,,but the more influential people from left must take responsibility from blood of Jewish people.
It is the paradox of paradoxes. But Iran cannot wage war on Israel without America’s permission. None of this senselessness occurred during the Trump Presidency. Why because Trump said “don’t be stupid.” Now we have a rubber stamp for a president. and walla!!! Iran goes to war
Two conclusions from this article. Iran must not be appeased by the US .. Europe and the USA can not trust Iran. Iran is an enemy of the West and can not be trusted.
With Iran creating such a violent world, Israel and the West have every right to act against Iran.
Iran has attacked no-one for more than a century. Israel on the other hand has done nothing but attack others in the 74 years of its existence and the US has been constantly at war, often self-created, since it was founded.
Little wonder that surveys show most people in the world consider the US the greatest threat to world peace and Israel is much higher up the list than Iran.
You’re strangely disconnected from reality. Ever heard of the Abraham accords? Why do you think middle eastern Muslim countries are suddenly interested in peace and trade deals with Israel?
Dictatorships bought off with American money….big deal.
Israel won’t hesitate to act against Iran and its proxies. This latest attack on Israel is only happening because Biden is president and they think they can get away with it.
The current war will change inversely proportional to the support of Israel’s allies (U.S., EU, etc). If allied support diminishes greatly, the war will intensify and broaden to include Hezbollah, Iran and other nearby enemies. If Israel concludes they are alone in fighting for survival, then they will use all weapons available, including nuclear as a last resort. The “land for peace” proposals will never satisfy enemies who are only interested in destroying Israel. Also, any other brokered “truces” will only be temporary until the next opportunity to attack Israel. Pressure is building on Israel to take steps to destroy their enemy’s capability to wage war before capability builds beyond their means to stop it. Iranian nuclear programs, drones and their proxies’ capabilities will continue to improve. A much larger, more severe conflict is inevitable if those pressures continue. Probably sooner than later. I doubt it would be contained to Israel and a couple of terrorist organizations. Israel would probably rather deal with nearby enemies while there is at least “some” support from the US, rather than wait and see that support diminish further with Biden and his currently divided Democratic party.
I for one found the casual insertion of this line odd:
” And of course religious tensions remain. The Palestinians are overwhelmingly Arab Sunnis; it’s not lost on them that the Iranians are Persian Shias.”
Not lost on them? What does it mean? How come we never hear of how outraged Hamas is to be dependent on those they religiously despise? I don’t get it.
“Innocent citizens of Israel…” pray tell, does that include the Kahanists who have achieved more and more power under Netanyahu, and/or perhaps the bloodthirsty settlers who are straight out of the American West or a Ku Klux Klan lynch mob? You need some Sheen. Daniel Sheen, that is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFl4U2NRJTg&t=1s
Why is the elephant in the room so consistently ignored in regard to this conflict? Israel occupies all of Palestine and holds 6 million men, women and children under often murderous military occupation, denying them human and civil rights and continuing to colonise their land.
Of course there is a Resistance Army. Name one other occupied and colonised country in history which did not resist.
Israel was instrumental in the creation of Hamas, as it was with Hezbollah, to use as tools in its colonial game. But the ‘worms’ turned, as they do when injustice is involved.
Most Hamas officials are in Israeli gaols and have been for many years. While legally elected as a political party, long ago, by the Palestinians, the Israelis and their American backers ignored the wishes of the Palestinian people and set out to destroy Hamas. Which, by the way, was so popular with Palestinians because it actively and successfully worked to help them in their daily misery, in practical ways, to survive as a brutalised, occupied people.
Yes, there are Hamas supporters in Gaza but Gaza is a prison and even former UK Prime Minister, David Cameron made that clear. Israel’s army has full control over the electric fence which surrounds Gaza, full control over the water side and full control over who and what enters or leaves the prison.
And people are surprised that in this prison, Hamas has gathered more supporters and the Palestinian Resistance Army has reached out for support from elsewhere. What on earth is the difference in the Palestinians receiving aid from outside when the United States funnels billions of dollars into maintaining the Israeli State and arming its military, the fourth largest in the world, so it can keep its total domination over Palestine and its 6 million powerless by comparison, people?
The double standards in regard to Palestine are truly astonishing. If any other country calling itself a democracy, established through colonisation, did to the indigenous people of the land it has stolen, what Israel does to the Palestinians there would be outrage.
And the ‘hat’ the elephant wears is religious bigotry because the subjugation of the Palestinians rests solely on the fact that Israel demands total control by Jews, members of the Jewish religion, and will not countenance any rights for the indigenous Palestinians because they are Muslims or Christians.
We know the answer to your question: it is that Jews in America and Jews in Israel and other countries support American senators and Congressmen with financial donations. The Jews have bought a large part of the American political system, and therefore AmericanGovernment. That’s why the United States cannot act towards Israel and the Middle East in the spirit of equity and fairness, which is the only way to bring peace and stability. Incidentally, the partisan, one-sided American support for Israel (based, as I said, on money for politicians and political parties) does not help Israel or Israelis in the long run, because it prolongs and exacerbates the fighting and hatred.
There’s a dozens of Arabian Islamic countries nearby, Palestinians have lots of places they could immigrate to without changing either their language or religion.
BTW, every country in this world was established through colonisation more or less. And the Jews had established a nation here much earlier, so they were the more qualified natives.
The Iranian regime seems to be assuming that it will not become the target. A dangerous assumption to make.
If the US and allies reduce support for Israel, then Israel will conclude (rightly) that they are alone against their enemies. If attacks against them continue and/or expand with Hezbollah (rockets, chemical weapons, etc), then for survival they will take off the gloves and use far more powerful weapons against a variety of targets. Otherwise, as many people point out, they would be overwhelmed eventually. Since both Hamas and Hezbollah are supported by Iran, and nuclear weapon development continues in Iran, then Iran would be included as a prime target as well. Laying down arms is a dream that won’t last for any substantial length of time. If I were Israel I would want to completely demolish nearby enemy capacity for war before it strengthens beyond my survival, especially if no one else will come to my aid.
Support for Israel in the US is primarily evangelical Christian support. There is some Jewish support, but in terms of numbers it is much smaller. Biden’s government is divided over Israel. It is unclear if Biden would use direct military support behind Israel (unlike Trump, who would have). There is also discussion about reducing military spending and support for Israel in the current US government. Israel’s enemies are not only testing Israel’s defenses, but testing also the support and resolve of their allies. Any real or perceived weakness is an opportunity for them. It’s really simple – stop supporting Israel, war expands. Accommodate their enemies (like allowing or helping Iran to strengthen), war expands.
I am a Jew who worked closely with Evangelical Christians. I understand the American and Christian support for Israel; I also understand the leftists hatred for that country.
What I see, today, is the beginnings of a tidal wave of anger against the apartheid regime in Israel, and against the treatment of the large Arab and Palestinian population in Israel, as second-, third- or even fourth-class citizens. Not even the United States, not even the American politicians in Congress who have been bought by Jewish interests, will be able to stand in the way of this tidal wave. And it’s long overdue.
Nah, that’s long over. The Middle East has moved on from the Palestinians as witnessed by six Muslim nations making deals with Israel. The Palestinians missed the boat.
So, in short, Israel would be well within its rights to take out the entire Iranian regime.
Hamas sees attacks on Israel as a religious war. Their holy book gives credence to this command. See koran III:28, III:32, III:151. and of course V:51
Lies & middle truth ,this is the news from the world abaut Israel&Arabs, a cowardy ,but no one wants to finish is days with Charlie Hebdo destiny.
Every one wary, except Israel & we pay a price.
Israel doesn’t need Hamas as an excuse to kill and destroy. Never has done. Hamas has been on unilateral ceasefire on and off for THIRTEEN YEARS since 2005, the longest ceasefire lasting two consecutive years from 2012 to 2014. And we all know how that went don’t we? ALL insurgencies across the globe have been infiltrated to certain extents. Hamas is no different. But please stop the “twin track” analogy. That there’s a f*****g “t*t for tat” scenario. There isn’t. Israel kills, steals and imprisons 24/7/365 with intermittent bloodbaths whether Hamas is on ceasefire or not. That they’ve started firing “rockets” is irrelevant. I cringe myself when I see them flying through the air because I know what’s coming next ffs! But to compare the two when a single Israeli bomb in Gaza in 2014 wiped out the same number (35) of Israeli fatalities over SIXTEEN YEARS of “rocket attacks” is a sick joke.
Here are the documents what Hamas has been exactly doing since 2000. DO not lie to people, please.
https://spanishhalyon.wordpress.com/2015/05/01/82/?fbclid=IwAR2QCYKydhBS5eR1KguE6AVgtgTmJFP6fuzYcq1d76767F_00AxXnyaKFtw
Hamas was created and promoted by Zionists in order to crush socialist and pro-Marxist anti-ZIonist Palestinian resistance. As simple as that. Stop lying about Iran, and about “murderousness” of Hamas, whose rockets can injure only as much as a brick falling off the building. Also, Hamas has not initiated a single provocation. Whatever Israel does to Gaza, murdering women, working men, kids and BABIES in thousands, is Israel’s own pleasure. Has nothing to do with Hamas. You don’t wipe out whole families in response to a few rockets that were fired IN RESPONSE to other inhuman actions and killings done by Israel to Palestinian people. https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hamas-israels-own-creation/
I have come to the conclusion that support for Israel’s human rights atrocities and war crimes is so appallingly irrational and unjust, that many of those who profess support for the Apartheid colonial State of Israel, do not so much like or approve of the State and its atrocities but just hate Muslims more. Ignoring the fact that Palestine had and has a large Christian population who are equally abused by the Israeli colonisers.
“You don’t wipe out whole families in response to a few rockets that were fired”
yes, what’s a few rockets, eh? Who would be upset by a few rockets?
just an FYI, if you fire a rocket at the US, we will do the same thing Israel is doing in response.
Israel wipes out whole families to maintain occupation and colonisation. Israel is the aggressor. The Palestinians are the innocent victims. If they resort to violence sometimes it is understandable. The French and Polish Resistance resorted to violence against their occupiers so why would not the Palestinian Resistance do the same when they can?
Israel uses massive and murderous military power against defenceless men, women and children in Occupied Palestine and that is a war crime and has always been.
That people can ignore such human rights atrocities consistently done by Israel, solely to crush the Palestinians and maintain occupation and colonisation is the most horrific part of all of this. The Israelis are a tad deranged these days and bigoted but their supporter sitting safely in other countries should know better.
This article is racist piece of propaganda, for author (greek jew) Palestinians are untermenschen, Israel never attack Iran on his soil, and there is no “Iran Dome system”…
What is the racism? Palestinians are not a race. And few people here could distinguish them from zJews if you assembled a lineup of either and dressed them in similar fashion. Just stop. You make a mockery of the term.
The UN defines racism as discrimination on any count. Israel is racist because it discriminates on the basis of religion while South Africa was racist because it discriminated on the basis of ‘race.’
Jews are a religion. Religions may call themselves a people as religious metaphor but they are not a people, race or nationality.
Palestinians are a people. Palestine has existed for 5,000 years and had 2,000 years under its belt before a tribe called Judea wandered in from what is now Iraq, according to the writings of the ancient Egyptians as deciphered by Egyptologists and archaeologists.
Thank you, excellent post.
Israel has by far the most powerful military in the region, so if Iran or any other party helped to provide weapons to Hamas I applaud it. Bravo
More war-mongering agitprop.
An occupied people — 6 million displaced Palestinians have NO right to return to their homes but Giles Fraser & Co. can up and move to Israel with a few forms — will bite back and fight back, it is inevitable. There is no moral navel-gazing to do, just accept that people do not like being ethnically cleansed (and will want to ethnically cleanse in response, which is the situation).
The very same people will become militant, nasty, vengeful and they will take money and arms from wherever they can. Hamas does not like Iran, but as DeAngelo says in The Wire “money be green”.
Israel is armed to the teeth and has one of the largest and most active militaries on the planet. NATO expertise and cash, cold, hard, nasty cash, prop up the Israeli state and security forces — the very same security forces that enforce the settler occupation of the West Bank and prevent a contiguous and independent West Bank state.
Your undying support for Israel is commendable, I hope you enlist in whichever military that’ll take you and contribute as best you can. Don’t drag the rest of us into it.
Blaming Iran and warmongering against Iran (as if the US and UK don’t support their own proxies across the region? Where were you the last fifty years?) is pathetic yet not surprising. People like you want war and death and destruction — so go enlist, finish training, and fight for as long as you can.
Of course, if Hamas just said “we lay down our Arms. No more killings. We want peace” then the pressure on Israel would ensure that a deal was reached. Any “Palestinian victim hood” narrative conveniently overlooks the fact that it is Palestinians who initiate and Israel who responds. That’s the agit prop.
An occupied people will fight back, and get increasingly nasty about it. Hamas are a symptom of the occupation — in Gaza the Gazans have no sovereignty, no control of their air, their water, their electricity even. Someone said they’re prisoners, Hamas the prison gang, and Israel the jail warden.
You’re brainwashed by ideological agitprop yourself from that drivel you spouted
The West Bank is occupied and Gaza has even less sovereignty and is also occupied — this is not in dispute, these are facts. Where we disagree is you think an occupied people need to let go and die whereas I think an occupied people have every right to fight back against occupation. One of us supports tyranny and the other does not.
Hamas is the occupier of Gaza. Israel must seal the border to all traffic. No more trade. Period. Every moslem country expelled the Jews and confiscated their property. Israel expelled no one. Then mohammedans immediately and repeatedly attacked Israel. And lost…repeatedly. There is no such thing as “Palestinian”. In reality, there are arabs who chose not to leave because all the neighbors said “hold on, watch this, we will eradicate Israel”. Too bad.
Israel literally expelled families every week and settles on the West Bank by force. These are facts.
Dltd.
As are you Matt.
No. Hammas are a symptom of Iran same as the guy who bombed the Manchester Arena.
The guy who bombed the Manchester Arena was armed and trained by the UK government (his entire family, in fact) to rebel against the Libyan government. They gave him safe passage between Manchester and Tripoli. These are all facts Paul. Ironic you’d mention a British-trained terrorist in this context.
Brilliant
Thank you “call me Dave”, Cameron.
The Manchester bomber was an operative of Cameron’s failed neocon Libya policy. Do some research. It’s a scandal which should have toppled the government, and would have if we had a functioning media in the UK.
Just shows you what happens when you get mixed up with with Islamic terrorists.
It was the Syria strategy too, the crime of the century, halted by V.Putin. No wonder the same people despise him.
really ?
Yes, they were even known as the Birmingham Regiment or somesuch. It should have toppled the government.
Dream on!
Eden’s deceit at Suez was rewarded with an Earldom!
Maybe. How would the situation have to change before your occupied people would stop fighting? My guess is not until Palestine is a Muslim country run by Muslims for Muslims (much like Israel is run by Jews for Jews, give or take the moral restraints of either group). What is your estimate?
Personally I don’t have any stake in the fight in and between Israel and Palestine and don’t think anything I say matters. What I like to push back against is clear war mongering and one-sideism.
I don’t support religion states or ethnostates – a disgusting concept – but it’s evidently clear Jews would not be happy to live in a Muslim-majority state (esp one that demands their expulsion and extermination) and Arabs in the occupied Palestinian lands are not happy to give up their sovereignty to colonizers and descendants of European colonial settlers.
That said, the most practical solution is something like modern day Lebanon. One state, heavily regional/local and with a strict constitution to protect the Jewish identity of the state and its people.
What do you think?
Lebanon is an interesting example. It went through a long civil war, was de-facto controlled by Syria, and is today run by what amounts to competing militias much like Fatah in the west bank or Hamas in Gaza. Not the most safe or peaceful state to aspire to.
But the main point is that the constitution of your one-state solution is almost irrelevant. Whatever the constitution, I strongly doubt that the Jewish people, let alone the Jewish Identity of a new state would be safe as long as their enemies had both the desire and the ability to subdue them by force. And there would be no shortage of neighbouring powers willing to help establish Muslim dominion. The current situation is clearly neither nice nor just. But even in the abstract I wonder if the sufferings of Jews in any unitary state are not likely to be a lot worse than those of the Palestinians today.
It is a sad fact that you can have a stable multicultural autocracy, but a functioning democracy needs either a religion, a culture, or an ethnicity to bind its people together into a ‘we’. Which is why, for instance, all the ethnic and religious minorities in Syria (except the separatist Kurds) seem to have backed Assad as being much safer – for them – than a Sunni-dominated democracy. You could sensibly see Israel as a successor state to the Ottoman empire, collecting the Jews spread out under imperial protection into a single place where they could form their own state (even if they did take in a lot of Europeans too).
I am old enough to remember Lebanon before it got involved in the Middle East wars. Then the PLO tried to stage a coup in Jordan and got kicked out (which is where the name Black September came from). The PLO moved, in part, to Lebanon and convinced the Muslim plurality there that they should stop sharing power with the Christians. The result? A bloody civil war that kept getting worse and worse.
There is no practical solution, there maybe no solution, you / we miss the point, this is the focus of what is now just the present battle in a wider eternal war… irrational to many but all encompassing to others, like some folk in Iran….
The problem A L is that nobody other than the hard left (not even them, they just pretend to) believes the Hamas terrorism would ever stop, whatever Israel does. The Gaza strip is a good example. Giving that up just gave Hamas more elbow-room to fire missiles at Israel. It made it more dangerous, not less.
The people behind Hamas, Hezbollah etc (the clue being in the name) have been instructed by their Sumerian pre-Biblical moon-god to kill every last Jew because they’re Jews. This is not because they’re in the West Bank (which didn’t exist when the moon-god gave his orders), it’s because they’re Jews. Giving up the West Bank to people like this would simply put even more of Israel at risk.
The only way we get peace in the Middle East is if the locals discover democracy, and elect peaceful, non-religious parties to both power and opposition, who negotiate a normalisation of relations with their neighbour. This doesn’t work when only one state, the one threatened, is a democracy.
There’ll still be anti-Semitic moon-god terrorism even then, but like the IRA, with the sincere co-operation of those whose turf they operate from, this can be contained, inshallah.
‘The only way we get peace in the Middle East is if the locals discover democracy, and elect peaceful, non-religious parties to both power and opposition, who negotiate a normalisation of relations with their neighbour.
Never going to happen.
Certainly not ahead of an Islamic Reformation, Fraser, no.
Maybe in a few hundred years?
Looking at the gory consequences of the Protestant reformation, I’m glad that I won’t be alive if an Islamic Reformation ever happens.
It took the Irish from 1169, when they idiotically
‘invited’ us in, until 1922 when they final kicked its out.
Even then we left with a ‘foot in the door’.
We are currently in the year 1442 AH according to the Islamic Calendar.
In ‘our’ Calendar, Jan Hus was burnt in 1415 AD, and Luther didn’t nail his 95 Theses to that church door in Wittenberg until 1517 AD.
So, as you say a wait of a few hundred years, if Islam is lucky.
If not it will go the way of Jupiter, Juno & Minerva.
I take it you’re talking about Israel there, correct?
1) An occupied people will fight back. So the occupation of the West Bank and of Gaza must end before you or anyone claims that it wouldn’t work. It needs to be done and rectified. It is illegal, immoral, and unethical. Everything that shouldn’t be happening is happening. Land theft and every sort of indignity. Of course Hamas will take over and represented a beaten down and oppressed people — do you expect otherwise?
2) It’s not a religious affair and your analysis is reductive. It’s about land and it’s always been about land. The West Bank is on higher ground than the rest of the land, so Israel will never allow it to be sovereign and possess weapons (it would risk Israel’s defenses); Gaza is by the sea, etc. If it was religious you wouldn’t see Abu Dhabi and others cozy up to Israel like they have, and you wouldn’t see Egypt bought-off with a few billion American dollars. If it was religious it would be entirely different and far bloodier. Turkey, NATO member, is hardly involved but imagine if they were 50% more religious?
3) Peace in West Asia fraught with booby-traps. It has little to do with democracy, and I’d think after 20 years of constant lethal warfare waged by NATO in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Yemen other Brits would understand that their government’s very own involvement is what exacerbates the violence and instability.
4) The occupied Irish territories and the liberation of the Irish people is an interesting analogy. Do you think it was religious fervor that fueled them or the pursuit of sovereignty and self-determination?
I agree entirely. The bigots here clearly don’t!
Unherd is rife with discrimination and stereotypes against Muslims. It shows just how mainstream and normalised Muslim tropes and insults have become.
The UnHerd commentariat has bitterly disappointed me and I’ve turned off “auto-renew” from my subscription. If I wanted to read right wing pro-NATO propaganda I could open any of five daily papers.
Try the Canary you’ll be welcome there.
Perhaps you;ll explain why Soviet union was backing Pro-Capitalist middle East Countries prior to 1992? America backed Socialist Kibbutz of Israel until recently?…
As am I. I thought Unheard was for open minded people, ready to challenge Government propaganda. The same majority of commentators here would have called Mandela a dangerous terrorist in the 60s.
Israel left Gaza to the Palestinians in 2005, forced removal of Jewish residents and gave the established infrastructure to the PLO. There was 1 election. Hamas took over and there hasn’t been an election since. The result is what you see in Gaza now. Does anyone think an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank would have a different result?
“the result” is from years of bombardment by Israel, economic and travel blockade, targeted killings, sniping unarmed youth close to the fence, flooding Gaza with seage, destroying Palestinian farmland, bombing vital infrastructure (electricity, water), preventing entry of medicines…..I could go on.
There is no West Bank: as you know, but are too shy to tell, it has been colonied by 600k or more settlers, leaving the slivers of land in between for the natives. The South African model, with added brutality.
Israel has not left Gaza and still operates Gaza like a jail warden does a prison.