X Close

The day QAnon captured America The world's most powerful country has been challenged — and not for the last time

Q Shaman takes over. Credit: Win McNamee/Getty


January 7, 2021   6 mins

At just about the time that America’s Congress was scheduled to recognise Joe Biden as the winner of the Electoral College’s vote, the Senate dais was occupied by the stunningly athletic figure known as Q Shaman. A known figure in the online conspiracy network QAnon, this man wore a horned fur helmet, and his bearded face was painted in a pastiche of the American flag. His torso, not unlike the one Brad Pitt achieved in Fight Club, covered in tattoos. Q Shaman’s mates took photos of him on the Senate floor, as they shouted, “Where’s Pence? Show yourself!”

This scene was broadcast across the globe — and I imagine many people looked upon it with a certain kind of awe, as I have looked upon footage of the botched Gullenist coup in Turkey in 2016, or the live-streamed terrorist attacks around Paris in 2015. This is history, live. A state is being challenged. But this time the world got to see it happening in the most important country in the world, the United States. The added frisson must have been delectable. Not only “this is history”, but perhaps, this is a symbol of a changing world order. Or, maybe, this is a fate richly deserved, comeuppance for a puffed-up hegemon who arrogantly elected an obnoxious oaf as the leader of the free world.

Every which way it was gripping to watch; the whole ragtag look enjoyably daft. And the world learned: this is what the world’s superpower looks like right now. The most powerful country on earth can see its Senate dispersed, its election results delayed, and its Vice President fleeing for protection from a relatively small rabble that was entirely unarmed, save for their memes.

One could say that Q Shaman and his friends had been sent to the Senate by Donald Trump himself, to hunt out the Vice President. In the day before these events, Trump had taken his White House pressure campaign public. Having failed to uncover evidence of voter fraud, the Trump campaign had tried to disqualify votes or whole states from the 2020 presidential election with bizarre legal theories. Maybe the election violated American civil rights, or wasn’t scrutinising mail-in ballots differently at least? American courts, many of them staffed with judges Trump appointed, rejected these theories.

The latest idea, one that had been circulating widely among conspiracy theory social media accounts associated with QAnon, focused on the Vice President. The Queueties held that Mike Pence had the power to keep Trump as president. The 12th Amendment specifies that the President of the Senate — the Vice President — counts the certified votes of the Electoral College. Pence, they believed, could simply refuse to count the votes from Pennsylvania, Arizona, Georgia and so on. Technically, the sitting Vice President could annul all 50 states and disenfranchise 150 million or more voters. Couldn’t he? Trump warmed to the theory.

It’s not even clear whether Constitutional interpretation interests QAnon. For those who don’t know the conspiracy theory, Q holds that Donald Trump is confronting the malevolent people — many of them paedophiles — who want to politically enslave us, and that he is succeeding. Most of the news is just a shadow of the real events: the pandemic, the death of a GOP Congressman from Covid-19, and the harassment of Senator Josh Hawley were all planned volleys in this ongoing shadow war between good and evil. In this black and white moral battle, Mike Pence was the only character whose ultimate loyalties were unknown. One could tally the evidence up either way. Stay tuned!

Donald Trump spoke about Mike Pence exactly this way at the pre-riot rally, emphasising the forthcoming turn of the plot and heightening the drama. “If Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election… ” Trump said: “All Vice President Pence has to do is send it back to the States to recertify, and we become president, and you are the happiest people.”

Pence released a letter confirming that he obviously did not have constitutional powers to overrule the people in an election. Within a few hours, he would be rushed out of the Senate chamber for his safety. And Trump tweeted:

The American public is in many ways inured to Trump, having long internalised his generally high level of bullshit. But in a day of many strange happenings, the president publicly accusing the Vice President of participating in the overthrow of the American form of government has to rank in history somewhere.

Most of the MAGA occupiers were not violent. They simply walked into the Capitol building after the initial violent wave caused the overmatched Capitol police to retreat.  Many were unlikely to know the stranger menagerie of second and third-tier internet rabble rousers who strolled into Congressional offices with them. Legislative staffers who remained in their offices boarded up their doors, waiting for an all-clear from the police. In an affray near the Senate Chamber, a young woman was shot and killed by Capitol police; Trumpers are now echoing their BLM counterparts with demands to “say her name”.

Her name was Ashli Elizabeth Babbitt. She was 35 years old and a veteran of the Air Force. Three others died of medical complications in the melee.

Here I must admit that, like several other contrarians, I believed that the danger for America was likelier to come in the form of resistance to Trump, rather than from Trump himself. I read the many prestige publications fantasising about “toppling” Trump as child-like fantasies, the liberal inteligentsia’s vain hope for the villain to finally reveal the depth of his wickedness at the culmination of the story. By doing so, Trump would justify not just his removal, but discredit all his supporters forever.

And forgive me but I still believe it.

Had Trump narrowly prevailed in the Electoral College, I believe hundreds of thousands of the resistance would have gathered in Washington DC and a reprise of the summer’s unrest would have flamed out across the country. This demonstration would have sought to provoke the kind of precipitating events that led to a government losing “moral legitimacy”. The sentiments of this resistance would have had the backing of the powers and principalities in American life. As bad as the brief reign of Q Shaman was, I still think that this Wednesday’s ragtag farce of an insurrection was easier to put down than the alternative.

And yet, the bedlam in Washington D.C. cannot be unseen. A relatively small rabble quickly seized the Capitol from retreating law enforcement. They ran wild in the offices of our elected government. If any rival power was lucky enough to have a capable operative and a thumb drive in DC today, our Congress got pwned today. America’s friends, frenemies and rivals saw these events. You think Angela Merkel is having any second thoughts about the investment agreement with China after this? I don’t.

And then there is Q Shaman himself, and what he represents. Q types will simply present their followers little snippets and clips of the news in a slightly twisted context. The story of the congressman who died of Covid and the story of a protest — maybe an Antifa mob‚ at Senator Josh Hawley’s house are linked to events like the Electoral College certification. And the human mind, talented at pattern formation, will fill in the gaps, and construct for itself the impression that there is a shadowy war between the forces aligned with Trump and the forces that oppose him, with real drama and real casualties.

What Q is doing is just intensifying and slightly re-shaping the common experience of social media, where snippets of outrage and fear are torn slightly out of context and linked together across the most addictive parts of the platforms like Instagram “stories”. Our pattern-making minds work on this constant stimulus, leading us to ever-more adamantine convictions, unshakable suspicions and disquieting fears.

Perhaps my own belief that a liberal insurrection would have been worse than this is one of these confected convictions, imprinted on me by the collision of my biases with the overstimulation of internet media. I can’t discount that possibility.

No one should forget the disgrace and danger that President Trump inflicted on America yesterday. But the thing that will keep me up at night is the knowledge that, in an instant, these confected beliefs and lurid fantasies can leap out of Facebook and Instagram and cause my countrymen to simulate the overthrow of my government. This is a psychological weapon, and somebody is going to learn to use it more effectively. Q Shaman reigned for an instant, and I’ll always wonder if he’s coming back.


Michael Brendan Dougherty is a senior writer at National Review and author of My Father Left Me Ireland.

michaelbd

Join the discussion


Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber


To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.

Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.

Subscribe
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

461 Comments
Most Voted
Newest Oldest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
William Cameron
William Cameron
3 years ago

Truth and freedom of speech matter. Nothing works as it should without them.
When the BBC describe a violent protest and vandalism as “peaceful” the silent majority can see they are lying. And when the establishment can be seen to be lying it causes an equal and opposite reaction from the other extreme. Because the people perceive that the instruments of communication are not there to communicate truth -their purpose has become part of a cause with which they disagree. The people become disenfranchised and this is fertile territory for extremists. And that is what happened yesterday. The “woke” are causing an equal and opposite reaction and it will not end well until the instruments of communication restore freedom of speech and unbiased reporting.

Robert Forde
Robert Forde
3 years ago

Which protest did you have in mind?

Peter Scott
Peter Scott
3 years ago
Reply to  Robert Forde

For example, the riotous protests in Portland, Oregon; in Chicago; in Los Angeles….

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Robert Forde

Surely not the ‘saintly” BLM they only burned,looted & 4 Murders!,,The Contempt of World’s Democracy IS Dangerous ”You don’t know what you voted for”!etc..for anything but boring Status quo..

J J
J J
3 years ago

You misunderstand the impact of the internet and social media. There will never again be any consensus on what the truth is. Neither will there ever be an absence of accusations regarding conspiracies. We need to operate in a framework that accepts this new reality.

And this new framework will need the very strict enforcement of law and order. You don’t get to protest violently or take another individual’s life, liberty or property, whatever your cause – BLM protestor or pro Trump protester.

We need to be very transparent in terms of information and data. Everything should be available, this will help mitigate accusations of conspiracies and cover ups. The standards for people in public life will need to be very high, with resignation required if there is even the slightest evidence of wrongdoing.

Elections will need to be aggressively policed to ensure even the accusation of fraud is not possible. Mailing ballots should be ended.

People need to get back to focusing on their own lives instead of constantly engaging in politics. That way we shall improve our own lives and that of wider society.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  J J

“Elections will need to be aggressively policed to ensure even the accusation of fraud is not possible” – that is thoroughly risible.

J J
J J
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Why? You believe elections should not be policed to avoid accusations of fraud?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  J J

NO you can police the elections for fraud but not for accusation of fraud. The current president has lost 61 courts cases in state and federal level. When his lawyers (you can read the court transcripts) have gone to court they have claimed IRREGULARTIES but – and this is very important – NEVER FRAUD. And yet the President, his advisors and millions of his followers continue to claim Voter Fraud. He has lost 61 courts cases.
In 2020 there are people that believe the earth is flat.

alex bachel
alex bachel
3 years ago
Reply to  J J

“the very strict enforcement of law and order”. Don’t make me laugh. The problem is that this is not being done and will never be done in the USA (or any other Western country) when a certain political viewpoint is promulgated by the so-called “elite”.

J J
J J
3 years ago
Reply to  alex bachel

I agree it’s not being done, which is why I said it should be. In terms of ‘elite’, it’s a completely meaningless and lazy intellectual term. It’s even worse than saying ‘the capitalists’.

rosie mackenzie
rosie mackenzie
3 years ago
Reply to  J J

I would call them the political and media class.

J J
J J
3 years ago

They don’t really work either. The media spans Fox news to the BBC. They have little in common.

Same with the ‘Political Class’. Not sure Trump and his Republican supporters have much in common with Corbyn and his Labour supporters. They are all part of the political class.

We need to start judging people based on their individual behaviour and not their social grouping.

Tom Mott
Tom Mott
3 years ago
Reply to  J J

What they virtually ALL have in common (Big Media) is that they are each reaching for a relatively specific segment in the general populace. It’s in the interest of ratings, clicks, etc. That’s what pays their bills and enables high compensation for themselves.

Anne Poitrineau
Anne Poitrineau
3 years ago
Reply to  J J

Are you arguing for a police state? It is not clear.

J J
J J
3 years ago

No, I am arguing for a liberal democracy. A liberal democracy does not spontaneously exist. The individuals rights to life, liberty and property needs to protected and enforced by the government. As do the government institutions which uphold and enforce these rights.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
3 years ago

Err, no! What a bizarre non-sequitur. JJ has argued simply for better election procedures. I am not clear what is objectionable about that.

Philip Burrell
Philip Burrell
3 years ago
Reply to  J J

As should have become transparently obvious after the 2020 US election fallout, it doesn’t matter how aggressively you police the election or if you ban mailing ballots, there is no way you can stop people, including the head of state, making completely unfounded allegations of fraud. There is no evidence despite what people still insist on posting on Unherd and no legal cases relating to the election have succeeded. End of story really except people don’t want to accept that.

I find it quite amusing how many Unherd posters who vilified Remoaners for not accepting the validity of the Brexit vote, are more than happy to keep posting about a “stolen election”. Their lack of self-awareness is astonishing but then again welcome to the world of binary politics where facts are irrelevant in the face of strongly held opinions.

Flat earthers abound sadly!

J J
J J
3 years ago
Reply to  Philip Burrell

I agree there is a lack of awareness by those who argue the US election is invalid. Not so much in relation to Brexit (I don’t think any remainers argued the actual counting of votes was fraudulent) but in relation to the prior Trump victory, which did not even achieve a majority of the popular vote. To suggest elections you win are legitimate and the ones you lose are illegitimate, is so dumb I am surprised people have the nerve to make it.

However I believe allowing voting by mail made it easy for Trump to make such claims. I suspect he did not even fight against the usage of mail votes as he knew it would allow him to exploit them later.

I agree some people will always claim there is fraud. However you can reduce the credibility of these claims by doing the things I suggested. From what I know, the USA voting system is a bit lose in terms of it’s oversight. There is no harm in having very robust procedures.

rosie mackenzie
rosie mackenzie
3 years ago

I have twice seen the internet censorship of Mr Gorbachev’s remarks. The first was on the EU – which he said was recreating the Soviet Union in Western Europe. This can no longer be found anywhere on the internet. The second was two days ago when Youtube cut a report of his comment on the the Capitol. He had said it was obvious who arranged the incursion but didn’t say who, and went on to say it was doubtful whether America was still a nation. You really would think he would be safe from the Californian Oligarchs at his advanced age.

Mike H
Mike H
3 years ago

No, it can be found still. For instance here. The quote you’re thinking of is:

The most puzzling development in modern politics is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.

In reality this is far too obscure a quote and person for tech firms to bother censoring. Mainly because their censorship is driven by young employees who have never existed outside of Ivy League universities and tech firms so rich they don’t have budgets: most of these people would be uncertain who Gorbachev was, have only the foggiest idea what the EU is and hardly care beyond “Brexit bad”.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago

Not the country’s prettiest day but the pearl clutching would be much easier to take seriously if we’d not been lectured that months of looting, arson, and assault were “peaceful protest.” The hyperventilating by the pols and pundits was as predictable as it was tedious.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

I really expected you to say it was the BLM’s fault. I’m surprised at your restraint.

Chris C
Chris C
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

However close America comes to Fascism, some people think it’s always the fault of the liberals.

The double standards are amazing.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

double standards describing arson, assault, and looting as “peaceful” but treating yesterday as a threat to the republic? Yes, those standards ARE amazing.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Yes, yesterday was a threat to the Republic. Is the product of a President that has sprouted conspiracy theories for the last 5/6 years – starting with birtherism of Obama!

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

good thing the Capitol Police were on hand to bag a prize then and quash the threat. No, yesterday was a protest by citizens who feel more like subjects. That does not excuse the people who got violent but when you sat quietly while multiple cities were being burned and terrorized, I’m not going to take your sudden outrage over this very seriously.

Roger Hird
Roger Hird
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Indeed. And as far as I can see this event was not so very different from the massive invasion of the capitol and the occupation of the senate by protesters against Kavanagh’s appointment to the Supreme Court in, 2018. Except that I don’t think guns were used against the protestors THAT time

Mark Gilbert
Mark Gilbert
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

What conspiracy theories?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark Gilbert

1) 3M illiegal immigrants voted against Trump in 2016 – that is why he lost the popular vote
2) The media lied about his inauguration crowd
3) President Obama had Team Seal 6 killed and faked the death of Bin Laden
4) Massive conspiracy explain the 2020 election

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Obama “birtherism” pre-dates Trump.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  stephen f.

Yes, Tea Party that becomes the Trump base….

Pete Kreff
Pete Kreff
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Is the product of a President that has sprouted conspiracy theories for the last 5/6 years – starting with birtherism of Obama!

Sure. But Trump’s presidency is still a symptom of a malaise, as well as a problem in itself.

Five years ago, many ordinary people on both left and right would have agreed that US politics is corrupt. Sure, you’ve got to be completely deluded to think Trump is the right man to change that, but his “drain the swamp” shtick was part of his appeal.

I’d say the Republic has done pretty well, though, and has proved resilient to all Trump’s attempts to overthrow the election: judges, many of them appointed by Trump, rejected his suits. Pence, among others, refused to follow Trump’s instructions.

Let’s not forget that Trump’s attempts to subvert democracy are utterly unprecedented: yet will soon leave office in disgrace and may well be facing investigation and prosecution.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Pete Kreff

US politics is corrupt.

People (assuming that the have a clue) have always claim that US politics is corrupt and it has historically been corrupt – especially at the state level. But it is far cleaner now than in 1920.

stuart.marshall
stuart.marshall
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

The key difference being that those protests were in public places, and the vast majority of people involved in those protests weren’t committing arson, assault, or looting.

On the other hand, breaking into the capital, regardless of what you do when you’re inside, isn’t peaceful protest.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago

The ‘vast majority’ didn’t break into the Capitol, either, but please; continue justifying the “protests” that destroyed numerous private businesses.

stuart.marshall
stuart.marshall
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

I can’t speak for the people you were quoting directly but I’m fairly certain it was the assault on the Capitol was the ‘threat to the republic.’

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago

If a few people making noise is a threat, then Mr Franklin’s words about a republic have little value.

stuart.marshall
stuart.marshall
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

‘A bit of noise’ is an inaccurate way to describe a riot in which four people died and IEDs were found.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago

Interesting you bring that up. One of those people was shot to death. By cops. And no one protested against police afterwards or called them horrible names. Why is that? The other three were medical issues, I believe.

stuart.marshall
stuart.marshall
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

It’s awful. I think the protesters you’re referring to are concerned with what they see as unjust overreaching by the police and the way it happen more often to African Americans. she was part of a mob that was currently trying to overrun police, and most people would have sympathy towards the police officers who were trying to defend the building.

I’m pretty sure that if the tables were turned and this was BLM invading the building there also wouldn’t have been protests, but let’s be honest, the police probably wouldn’t have let them enter in the first place.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago

Except it does NOT happen more often to blacks. 75% of people killed by law enforcement are not black. And if you want to weight that against proportion of the population, you will find that the same 13% of Americans carry out more than 50% of the homicides, usually with the victims also being black.

BLM was given free reign in city after city, along with antifa. DAs joined in by refusing to prosecute anyone arrested. Tens of millions in property damage, about three dozen murders, and assorted other mayhem, most of it done with cops ordered to stand down.

Tom Mott
Tom Mott
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

And then there are the foolish statements/speculation about how terribly the police would likely have abused (as in gunned down I suppose), the Black community if they were the ones invading the Capitol building. Do I remember correctly that in the summer protests and urban violence cops were told to stand down by their superiors, AND that they showed truly amazing restraint, coast to cost for weeks. Right??

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Of course there will be no protests against the shooting of a women veteran. There are no Lee Rigby t-shirts. No Samuel Paty t-shirts. No David Dorn t-shirts.

Anne Poitrineau
Anne Poitrineau
3 years ago
Reply to  stephen f.

There are Lee Rigby Tshirts, do your homework

Mark Corby
Mark Corby
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

C-19 perhaps?

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Not sure what happened. I hope we find out in time.

Anne Poitrineau
Anne Poitrineau
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

One policeman died too. This is very very sad. It does not ammter what colour, what side of the fence, it is sad people have died.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago

It was not a “threat to the republic”-how ridiculous. It was a riot, not organized to any real extant, and quickly ended. The real “threat to the republic” is the insidious overcontrol of “allowable” discourse in the new and evolving social media, with the overt complicity of “journalists”, and the willful enabling of politicians.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  stephen f.

It wasn’t organised? How long does it take to build a pipe bomb and pack your bag with molotov cocktails?

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

I don’t know-you tell me. A couple of bad actors does not constitute an organized assault.

Anne Poitrineau
Anne Poitrineau
3 years ago
Reply to  stephen f.

If these actors are organised, it does. They do not all have to be organised. actually, in such moments the organised ones hide among the chaotic ones, who give them cover.

Robert Forde
Robert Forde
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Well, a great many of them did. We saw it.

Vic Pearson
Vic Pearson
3 years ago

Did you have your eyes shut to the Summer looting ?

steve eaton
steve eaton
3 years ago

LOL, The people’s house is a public place if there ever was one. And the swarming of the Capitol was a comparative small group of the couple of hundred people at the protest.

You are so far gone into the propaganda, you can’t even think clearly I think.

Anne Poitrineau
Anne Poitrineau
3 years ago

You know, since desinformation is rife, I am wondering if the looting and arsoning was as bad/widespread as reported?? Remember the government was bent on discrediting the BLM demonstrations. But I agree, we cannot be certain of how bad it really was. All we can say: the police were not prepared, the congressmen and journalists felt under threat, some offices were invaded. The vast majority could no break into the Capitol because of the lack of space and time, not through lack of intent.

Vic Pearson
Vic Pearson
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Sure it is too if BLM and ANTIFA are liberals ?

Pete Kreff
Pete Kreff
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

However close America comes to Fascism, some people think it’s always the fault of the liberals.

The double standards are amazing.

Double standards are everywhere to be seen.

If one night of chaos by some sore losers and conspiracy theorists that was eventually broken up by law enforcement is an insurrection, what would you call the seizure and occupation for weeks on end of an entire urban district in Portland?

Yet how much swooning was there over that undemocratic usurpation of power? Not much – it was tolerated, made excuses for and even celebrated.

Second, it seems obvious that a move towards one political extreme will be met by a move towards the opposite political extreme. In Weimar Germany, the fascists weren’t fighting in the streets against middle-of-the-road liberals, but against communists, and vice versa.

As a general rule, the more lunatic the left is, the more crazy the right will be, and vice versa. A plague on all extremists, I say.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

yesterday was an exercise in human behavior. For months, violence was tolerated at best and implicitly encouraged at worst. Now, we’re supposed to be outraged. This is one more example of the response being guided by WHO was involved than by WHAT happened.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Riots happen – this was a riot started by the President. That’s the difference between the ‘who’ here and the ‘who’ elsewhere.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Did I miss your outraged when Kamala was championing bail money for anyone arrested in the Minneapolis riots? I almost feel bad for some of you who will have to find a new foil after Trump.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Bail money is not the same thing as starting a riot – as President of the USA.False equivalency.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Bail money for rioters sends a message that rioting is okay. The president, meanwhile, did not call for violence. I wonder if blaming Trump will have the same life expectancy as the habit of blaming Bush did.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

You are, and have been, a veritable fount of “false equivalency”.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

A half-baked attempted coup as much as a riot.

Mark Gilbert
Mark Gilbert
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

This was no attempted coup. To think so is as misplaced as thinking Biden is fit for purpose.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark Gilbert

I’d have thought whether you think Trump or Biden really won the election, it was a deliberate and overt attempt to interrupt normal US electoral procedures with the aim of securing another Trump term. In other words, an attempted coup. Half-baked as befits a halfwit who didn’t have the military on his side.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

As was clear when 10 former US Defence Secretaries told him so.

Vic Pearson
Vic Pearson
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

Trump is no halfwit, He would not support a military coup until all his legal efforts are exhausted.

steve eaton
steve eaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

No, it was a warning to the incoming administration that the people still have some power. Power that thanks to the Left is now legitimate to use in this manner.

It was a statement that after 4 years of the insult and spectacle of a pouting and butt hurt Left acting out over Trump’s win in 2016, they have set the new standard of how the losers are now allowed to behave.

Finally, it was a warning that there are tens of millions of people who will not just go away and quietly put up with a Socialist take-down of the US.

There is likely to be worse as the politicians and media still don’t get it.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  steve eaton

the people

The people voted Biden (by 7 million more votes) as President of USA.

tynycwm
tynycwm
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

Normal procedures? There was nothing normal about the preceding electoral procedures in some States.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark Gilbert

Which isn’t to say the half-baked QOnanists didn’t think it was a pre-emptive coup.

Muscleguy
Muscleguy
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

Unless they appointed a Defence Secretary and tried to get the security services to obey him/her it cannot be dignified as any sort of coup.

I’ve lived long enough to have seen a number of coups evolve. This was not one such.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

One commenter has suggested “it is quite possible antifa types infiltrated and initiated violence.”

alexanderrothwell03
alexanderrothwell03
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Exactly. It annoys me how people on both the left and the right try to claim that the BLM “protests” and the coup attempt we saw yesterday are different. BLM violently disrupted American society and destroyed people’s businesses. The Trump supporters yesterday violently disrupted American democracy and put the lives of government workers in danger. Both are evil and therefore those involved in either of them should be locked up. It makes me worry about America when both sides are soft on – let’s call a spade a spade – terrorism.

tynycwm
tynycwm
3 years ago

No, that wasn’t terrorism except in the most trivial sense. I mean look at the man in the horned helmet surrounded by middle aged men filming on their phones FGS. Certainly not deserving of shooting a woman in the neck for climbing through a broken window.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  tynycwm

“Officer Sicknick was responding to the riots on Wednesday, January 6, 2021, at the U.S. Capitol and was injured while physically engaging with protesters. He returned to his division office and collapsed. He was taken to a local hospital where he succumbed to his injuries,”

M Spahn
M Spahn
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Yes, it was a whole summer of “buildings don’t matter” and “riots are the language of the unheard.”

Ralph Windsor
Ralph Windsor
3 years ago
Reply to  M Spahn

They are the language of those who, thanks to malignant social media, are heard far too damn much.

Tom Mott
Tom Mott
3 years ago
Reply to  M Spahn

Those frequent comments about buildings and other material assets not mattering were/are about the most “blinders on” nonsense imaginable. Such statements miss the point that buildings and real property generally tie back to individuals’ lives (economic, security, aspirational, psychological/emotional). I suggest checking with Jimmy Carter and Habitat for Humanity to see whether or not “buildings matter”. Let me introduce you to a man who built a family drycleaning, laundry, and tailoring business in an urban neighborhood. It was finally starting to show a profit before destruction by fire spreading from a “protest/riot target” building nearby. Son had gotten into small-time drug dealing to help with the family bills. Got arrested. For a short time HE became suspect in the arson investigation. Property Insurance settlement was being held up until Son was cleared of that weeks later. Meanwhile, distraught Mother killed herself. No big deal. Just another building.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

The scale of anti-racist protests was enormous. Possibly one of the largest mass protest movements in American and world history. Given that scale, instances of deadly violence, arson and looting were not the norm. Far from it. The Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project have mapped the data of all protests, riots and deadly violence in relation to BLM. They found:

“Between 24 May and 22 August, ACLED records more than 10,600 demonstration events across the country. Over 10,100 of these ” or nearly 95% ” involve peaceful protesters. Fewer than 570 ” or approximately 5% ” involve demonstrators engaging in violence. Well over 80% of all demonstrations are connected to the Black Lives Matter movement or the COVID-19 pandemic.”

The media do report on violence at BLM protests. Type BLM violent riot into Google and literally hundreds of articles written by the worlds leading newspapers can be found. Most of the protests were peaceful. This a is factual claim backed up by data.

Far-right activists armed with pipe bombs, guns and blunt objects stormed government buildings with the express intention of disrupting a democratic process hoping to prevent the rightfully elected President assuming power. They did so after being encouraged by the current President. A policeman is now dead. These seditious acts are a grave. Their only intent was to subvert democracy.

Anne Poitrineau
Anne Poitrineau
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Thank you, that was exactly the info we needed.

William Gladstone
William Gladstone
3 years ago

Imagine what this looks like to an unrepresented ex/Trump supporter who has seen his income fall relatively for the last 30 years and seen globalists ever widening the income and wealth gaps and seen what looks like a very suspicious election and a very corrupt establishment closing ranks to teach him and his fellow deplorables a lesson about voting in a populist anti globalist ever again.

Not sure where that leads exactly but I can’t for one second imagine there won’t be many many consequences from this.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago

Plenty of those people that have seen their income shrink didn’t vote for Trump.
And the people (by 7M votes) voted against Trump. Just like they vote against him in 2016 (3M votes) and in 2018 Mid-Term Elections.

William Gladstone
William Gladstone
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Certainly those are the “Official” figures. Lets say you are right and all these people voted against Trump (Cos lets face it nobody positively voted for Biden) what if a less brash Trump comes along? do you think you can always rely on tribalism or will the old in mail votes have to make an appearance more and more.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago

Give us the Alternative Facts !

“do you think you can always rely on tribalism” – yes, SADLY, that is the current position of American politics.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

AlterNaTIve FActs = ANTIFA.
Coincidence? Or conclusive proof of a conspiracy and cover up?
What do QOnanists make of this? Is Antifa part of The Plan, with secret behind the scenes direction from The Don himself?

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

You seem to have enough…

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  stephen f.

I don’t (unlike you) Q as a source.

William Gladstone
William Gladstone
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Oh come on, it must be really difficult to say Mail in ballot without tapping your nose and going “Wink Wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean”

LUKE LOZE
LUKE LOZE
3 years ago

Just because mail in ballots are really, really, really easy to corrupt doesn’t mean that they are.

The big problem everywhere remains the issues of voter apathy, lack of knowledge from voters, extreme bias in the media and absolutely appalling candidates from both sides.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago

And yet Trump has lost 61 court cases (state and federal level) – his lawyers have NEVER (very important!!! ) claimed Fraud in court – they have always claimed irregularities.

Starry Gordon
Starry Gordon
3 years ago

Indeed, there are people who have watched what Trump did, and are thinking they could do it better and go a lot further. Trump is delusional and incompetent. Next one might not be.

Anne Poitrineau
Anne Poitrineau
3 years ago

I agree with you. Although I disagree with Trump supporters and loathe him, I hope with all my heart that the next administration will put all rancour aside and make sure Trump supporters’ wishes and needs are taken into account. They have legitimate grievances. but they too must remember that things like abortion or religious belief are personal matters. Even if one believes the others need to share the good news etc…let them find it for themselves, else we end up to the kind of horror perpetrated by the Spanish Conquistadores who converted American Indians using genocide instead of Christian love.

Micheal Lucken
Micheal Lucken
3 years ago

What I find interesting is that having scoured the various news channels and articles I found none of them asking any Trump supporters what this was about and why they were aggrieved. Compare that to the BLM riots that have been ongoing for months, there was no shortage of rioters explaining their motivation of oppression and articles sympathising with their problems. The media on the whole it seems is not interested in what half the population think or want to say. I agree with the article inasmuch as there would have been a major insurrection from the other side had Trump won if not necessarily in this form. This event is symptom of a decline of trust in American democracy which I would say exists throughout western liberalism. My view is that activist media has become too influential and lines between fact and propaganda are too blurred for most to make informed political choices with regard to wider common interests so everybody retreats to their own personal concerns and pulls up the drawbridge.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Micheal Lucken

The Trumpians are enthralled to a despot and falsely believe that the world is controlled by a globalist cabal. We all know the subtext here. Just to clarify a man at the protest was wearing a hoodie with ‘Camp Aushwitz’ written on it. They claim the election was rigged but have no evidence of an organised plot. Their evidence amounts to hearsay and so has been repeatedly thrown out by the courts.Racism and a history of white supremacy is real. It’s not imagined and anti-racists are not attempting to destroy American democracy to get their way. Biden does not endorse fringe groups like Antifa and proclaim his love for them while they storm gov’t buildings armed.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Please explain what makes him a despot. It is not Trump enforcing a rigid orthodoxy on college campuses. It’s not Trump who came up with cancel culture. It’s not Trump telling Big Tech to silence inconvenient voices that deviate from leftist dogma.

Racism and a history of white supremacy is real.
Now you’re being hysterical. This country fought a war over slavery. No small number of white men were killed in that war, just as no small number of white people took part in the civil rights movement. If you want racism, start with critical race theory, then continue to white privilege.

Robert Forde
Robert Forde
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

White privilege (terrible name, I know) doesn’t mean that white people have no problems. It just means the colour of their skin isn’t one of them.

Sorry, but racism is real. Try driving a posh car in London and see how far you get if the driver is black. Try even walking down the street and see who gets stopped and searched. Try being George Floyd – how many white suspects were suffocated to death last year in the US?

White supremacy? Well, we’ve seen meetings with people giving Nazi salutes and cheering racist slogans. And some of the banners carried last night clearly had Nazi references on them. Not all, to be sure, but enough to show there’s a problem.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

The civil war and civil rights movement occurred precisely because of racism and white supremacy. If the US fought a war over slavery when racism and white supremacy were not real, what were they fighting over, and why do you yourself assert it was a war over slavery?

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

The civil war was fought at a time when slavery was legal, and that was hardly exclusive to these shores. History shows black slave owners, too, to include the first recorded slave owner, so the ‘racism’ claim does not really hold water.

Africans sold other Africans into bondage; some nations there still engage in the trade. Is that evidence of either racism or white supremacy? The latter term seems to have become popular when the old habit of calling others racists started losing steam.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Slavery Was in Roman Empire & Arabian Empire over 2,000 years ago..Dont be So stupid,sanctomonius &selective..

Pete Kreff
Pete Kreff
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Please explain what makes him a despot

Trying to subvert democracy to stay in office is the action of a wannabe despot. He failed, so he can’t elevate himself to full despot status, but he tried.

You’re right that there are a lot of despotic tendencies around, though.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Pete Kreff

Trying to subvert democracy to stay in office is the action of a wannabe despot
How did he do that? A few tweets are not exactly subversion.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

“…man at the protest wearing a hoodie…”? A strong argument indeed! Does Biden revere the memory and legacy of Woodrow Wilson? The Democrat icon that re-segregated the armed forces, invited tens of thousands of the KKK to march, hosted racist film showings in the White House, and involved the US in a European tribal conflict? Do you?

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  stephen f.

Thank you. All too many like to portray the Democratic Party as a benevolent force free of the taint of racism. My US history is hazy, but wasn’t it Republicans that fought hard to end slavery in the USA?

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

Pretty much. Lincoln was a Repub. But he was also white, leading a San Francisco school to move toward changing its name. That supplants toppling the statues of abolitionists on the crazy scale, but I’m sure someone else will come along to better that.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Ignorant Fool, It Was Southern Democrats who opposed freeing Slaves see ”Lincoln” film by Spielberg

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Robin Lambert

I was told by lefty acquaintances for ages that Democrats were inherently better than Republicans, and while I found it hard to see the difference, I admit I was led to assume Democrats had led the fight against slavery.
I still find it hard to see significant differences between the two parties today, but credit where credit is due, Lincoln was a Republican, and ending slavery was a great step forward, opposed in much more than mere words by the scumbag slaver Democrats.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Robin Lambert

I am genuinely curious how you inferred I did not know this? I do but not from watching a Hollywood film.

Robert Forde
Robert Forde
3 years ago
Reply to  Micheal Lucken

I’ve seen Trump supporters aplenty being interviewed. Not at the Capitol last night, but at all earlier demonstrations.

Josie Bowen
Josie Bowen
3 years ago
Reply to  Micheal Lucken

And I can find nothing on any media that unfavourably compares the more violent BLM protests to yesterday’s events. Not even a hint.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Josie Bowen

Good luck with that…

Philip Burrell
Philip Burrell
3 years ago
Reply to  Micheal Lucken

The BBC had vox pop interviews with plenty of the protesters yesterday. They are still on the website today. They had Fox News on their side for four years but even they gave up in the end. I am sure GB News will give them air time! If you want to find out what they think, go on The United Deplorables of America facebook page. At least the title shows a sense of humour.

jimewson
jimewson
3 years ago
Reply to  Philip Burrell

The BBC known over here as the ‘British biased-Broadcasting Corporation’ has been peddling anti-Trump propaganda throughout his presidency……like much of the MSM in the US they are part of the problem…….

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  jimewson

Trump himself is the purest and most effective anti-Trump propaganda I’ve seen. The fact that on some issues he’s marginally better than some of his predecessors, and probably his successors, doesn’t change that.

Philip Burrell
Philip Burrell
3 years ago
Reply to  jimewson

I have no truck with that view of the BBC news or ITV or Channel 4. The fact that the BBC is reviled equally by both left and right just solidifies my opinion of how good a job they do. Apart from that, they just produce brilliant drama, documentaries and light entertainment, not that the latter is my bag. I am happy to pay the licence fee, always have been, always will be. As for the MSM, I don’t see that either. It runs the gamut from the Guardian to the Telegraph and they don’ t have a lot in common, apart from journalists who everyone on here appears to hate. Not sure why as so many of the articles are written by journalists, even some ex hacks from good newspapers.

Anne Poitrineau
Anne Poitrineau
3 years ago
Reply to  Micheal Lucken

We will never know what would have happened if Trump had been elected, because he was not elected. I think we know what Wednesday’s rioters want: Trump. But you are right, Trump is not a programme, and his suporters do have legitimate grievances and need their voices to be heard too, and these grievances and needs need to be given space in the media…just like other people’s: Native Americans are also in a terrible predicament, and Covid has exacerbated their deprivation. Trump’s people are not the only ones left behind, they are the loudest.

.

Barry Mapp
Barry Mapp
3 years ago

Surely none of this trouble needed to happen if the courts had allowed the evidence of fraud to be heard. Here in the UK, this leaves a very bad taste in my mouth as none of the fraud evidence was properly examined by the courts and that MSM and Social Media continued to report in all their articles that there was ‘no evidence’ of fraud when there was evidence that hasn’t been properly examined. Full transparency and examination of the fraud submissions could have cleaerd this up one way or the other. So now this will fester on because many Americans will believe fraud was commited and that this evidence has been suppressed.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Barry Mapp

There was no evidence!
There is a difference between Twitter claims and court claims
Trump lost 60 court cases and won only 1!

ard10027
ard10027
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

There’s no evidence that the mainstream media are journalists, but that doesn’t stop some people accepting their bona fides.

Andrea X
Andrea X
3 years ago
Reply to  Barry Mapp

It’s not that if you repeat a false claim enough times it becomes true.

Vic Pearson
Vic Pearson
3 years ago
Reply to  Andrea X

That’s why most people believe in Manmade Global warming.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Vic Pearson

Nothing to do with the extreme weather they see with their own eyes, never mind what they read about or see via the media.

Muscleguy
Muscleguy
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

Back in the ’80s when the AGW idea first began to take off and as a young PhD student I looked up the relevant figures in dead tree books and did the dilution calculation which proved to me that humans were indeed putting out more CO2 than the sinks can absorb meaning it will accumulate in the atmosphere.

I then checked the physics of CO2 as a greenhouse gas. It is nailed on sound. Nowhere to turn. The data have not caused me to change my mind. Quite the opposite.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Muscleguy

I wasn’t a PhD student, but I too checked out the science behind climate change, and it seemed sound to me. I even checked out some of the supposed flaws, such as ‘oh, look, they admit the CO2 absorption bands are saturated,’ and found them based on (possibly wilful) misunderstandings of the terms and ideas.
I’m frankly amazed that anyone can continue doubting the main thrust of climate science, though of course various minor aspects get updated or modified. Thirty years ago the warnings may indeed have seemed to some like scare stories based on little more than computer simulations. But today, with so many of these predictions coming so awfully true, I’m flummoxed to imagine how anyone can continue to doubt climate science and its warnings.

Johnny Sutherland
Johnny Sutherland
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

Probably not when you consider that extreme weather has happened before. Phrases like “since records began” sound really impressive until you realize how short a time it actually covers, and how much historical accounts can tell us about how things are actually changing.

I’d really love to see a fact check on MMCC predictions and how accurate they’ve been. Lets start in (I think it was) 1783 and keep going until we hit crystal ball territory.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago

I read some of the main predictions about climate change in the early 1990s, perhaps the late 1980s. As I recall, they included not only rising average temperatures, but basically worse droughts, floods, hurricanes and heatwaves, all of which appear to be evident today.
And we’re not just seeing extreme weather, we’re seeing various forms of extreme weather worldwide with increasing frequency. Each new year sees multiple records being broken, often more than once in the same year.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

Garbage, They tried to Fix data at Anglia University in 2008 40/50 US states Record temperatures were in 1930s ,the Globalists tried to alter 1913 Death Valley Record ….Lies &stupidity is NOT science,Fixed Models have failed on SARS2, HSN1,SARS1 and Weather..

Daniel Björkman
Daniel Björkman
3 years ago
Reply to  Vic Pearson

Ah yes, manmade global warming. I remember when it was global warming, period, that was a liberal conspiracy. But hey, let no one say that conservatives can’t change their minds in the face of new facts! As soon as they saw for themselves that the climate was noticably getting warmer, they admitted that global warming was real… but it was totally not their fault and nothing they could do anything about and anyone who said otherwise was just trying to take their gas-guzzling cars away out of sheer malice!

You’re all pathetic.

But hey, whatever. Like a sane person, I have never intended to reproduce, so as long as civilisation and the eco system can keep from collapsing for another forty years, I don’t care if your grandchildren end up living in Mad Max style wasteland. But I’m actually a little surprised that you don’t care, since you all seem to be so dead set on spreading your seed far and wide to outbreed the scary brown people.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago

Since 1880, the avg global surface temp has increased by a bit less than two degrees. The hyperbole of “noticeably warmer” is just that, hyperbole, and it ignores periods since the Industrial Revolution when avg temps did not rise.

It’s one thing to point to patterns but it is quite another to assume that govt agencies can regulate climate through policy and that the policy will have no second order effects.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Carbon dioxide is necessary for Crops,Forests, Grasslands etc…The Facts EVEN from met office records from 1659 ..various little ice Ages 1730-1790 have occurred Slight Warming in 1980s has finished.Antarctic Shelf is expanding .Solar Winds ,Volcanoes Affect climate …

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Robin Lambert

Water is necessary for life. Doesn’t stop people drowning.

LUKE LOZE
LUKE LOZE
3 years ago

Most/many people are more fed up with the hypocrites, hysteria and control freaks around AGW.

Consider the fact that the UK now uses far less energy than it did in the 1970s, and with far less pollution – and has a larger population with a better quality of life.

To listen to the AGW and environmental hysterics you’d think that we had gotten far worse.
To listen to some in the anti AGW brigade you’d presume our living standards must have dropped hugely.

Now some of our CO2 emissions have been outsourced to more polluting countries, which really falls into the law of unintended consequences. Like much regulation we often make ourselves poorer, whilst making the situation worse.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Vic Pearson

Oh for God’s sake…this will surely throw the discussion off the rails!

Dave H
Dave H
3 years ago
Reply to  Barry Mapp

The evidence was heard in multiple cases. It was lacking, it was inconsistent and it was heresay. Some of the cases were thrown out not just on lack of evidence, but on lack of concrete allegations.

This meme that the courts didn’t even look is just more disinformation. Multiple articles doing in-depth analysis have been published and the court records are public. The line that “they didn’t even look!” is pure ignorant fantasy.

Vic Pearson
Vic Pearson
3 years ago
Reply to  Dave H

Any evidence right or wrong has been downplayed by the majority MSM same as they always have been anti-Trump for years.

Muscleguy
Muscleguy
3 years ago
Reply to  Vic Pearson

Dave H has pointed you to the court documents. Which are online, go read them for yourself.

Pete Kreff
Pete Kreff
3 years ago
Reply to  Barry Mapp

Surely none of this trouble needed to happen if the courts had allowed the evidence of fraud to be heard.

Trumps suits were rejected in some cases by judges he had appointed!

steve eaton
steve eaton
3 years ago
Reply to  Pete Kreff

That would seem to be the point, and is why the evidence has not been examined by the courts.

ard10027
ard10027
3 years ago

I stopped reading at “this was a state being challenged”. The state has been under challenge for the last year. It was challenged by Chaz in Oregon and it backed down. It’s been challenged constantly by BLM in every street in America and it backed down. It was challenged by Antifa looting and arson constantly for the last twelve months and it backed down. It’s been challenged by its media caste standing in front of blazing cities and proclaiming “mostly peaceful” protests and it backed down. America is a lost country, like all left controlled nations. It’s gone, and all the smug latte leftists proclaiming how great it is that that horrible Trump person is gone and (sotto voce) now we can get back to business as usual bombing all the brown people around the world is not going to change that.

You think TRUMP inflicted disgrace on America? Wait until “Dr” Jill is spoon feeding Biden his mush and the Democrat crime syndicate is pumping billions of your tax dollars back into the military-industrial complex while casting around looking for wars to start to justify it. What’s just happened is like that movie, the Sixth Sense. In twenty years time — if your country still exists — you’re going to look back like Bruce Willis in the final scene and realize everything you think you saw you didn’t see at all, and Trump, for all his vulgarity and crassness, was not the Hitler figure the “respectable” media presented him as.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  ard10027

You think TRUMP inflicted disgrace on America?
Yes he did
The Birtherism, the alternative facts about his inauguration crowd…remember that?

David Jory
David Jory
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

The Birther scam started by Hillary Clinton’s first campaign?

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  David Jory

One of the most ignored facts in recent memory-it does not fit the narrative.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  stephen f.

-and also all large National Mall event attendance figures have been exaggerated by the organizers and usually the attendees.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  David Jory

I hadn’t heard that Clinton started the birther thing, but googling “Birther scam started by Hillary Clinton” brings up a whole series of claims that she did not, and furthermore never endorsed the idea that Obama was born outside the USA.
Who says she or her campaign did start the idea, and where, please?

Real Horrorshow
Real Horrorshow
3 years ago
Reply to  ard10027

All of the US’s foreign military adventures for the last 20 years and more have been started by Republican presidents. Or are they part of the left too now?

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago

Obama came to office with two wars, and left with seven. That’s according to people on the left like Jimmy Dore. Obama did Libya and Yemen, to name just two. And Clinton initiated a number of military adventures in the Balkans and elsewhere. On one occasion this was to detract people from the thing with the intern. The Dems are just as bad as the Reps, and Biden/Harris will soon get it all going again.

Julian Hartley
Julian Hartley
3 years ago

You forget Obama’s delightful little airborne jaunt into Libya.

Peter Scott
Peter Scott
3 years ago

This makes rather a meal of looking the realities squarely in the face.
The violent conclusion of the march on Washington DC was a tragic and unnecessary outcome. Altogether lamentable and to be deprecated. The Trump supporters have done their cause real harm.
But the much more significant fact is that the presidential part of the 2020 General Election in the USA WAS stolen; that there are mounds and heaps of proofs to that effect; and that in the ongoing conspiracy against ordinary people across the western world, this latest suffocation of public opinion – by the media almost more than the political class – has multitudes very understandably exasperated.
Ten months of horrific rioting occur in U.S. cities all over the country. It was endorsed and enabled by the Democratic Party – not least with far-left Democratic district attorneys refusing to prosecute violent criminals who have looted, committed arson, attacked people at random in the streets – and the Occidental media have made very little of that.
2,500 election official and observers swear affidavits – with the prison-punishment of their perjury hanging over them if they have lied – to the effect that they have witnessed at first hand egregious electoral wrongdoing; and the media chant parrot-fashion morning and night ‘Nothing to see here. Baseless allegations. No proofs’.
It is indeed the case that the courts have refused to look at the mounds of evidence offered them; and that is because the judges are scared.
They are afraid – very reasonably and understandably – of themselves being the sole arbiters of the election outcome (I am not sure they had the power to void the whole thing and command a re-run of the poll). But also they are physically frightened about what happens to them and their families if they annoy the rampant Left (BLM, Antifa etc.)
For instance, most dubiously, the Supreme Court refused to hear the state of Texas’s case against the states of Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin on the spurious ground that it had no standing for turning to the Supreme Court. According to the Constitution, it has.
More dubiously still, one judge threw out a plaint on the ground that he disliked the font of the typescript in which it was presented!
Unless the media ceases to be a pretty full-time brainwashing propaganda machine for the current ruling oligarchy in the Occident, violence and insurrectioni is simply going to increase.
Think about that, O ‘meritocrats’!

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Peter Scott

The election WAS NOT stolen you nutjob!

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

How do you know? There are hundreds of signed affidavits speaking to fraud, there are numerous videos that look odd, and there are multiple statistical irregularities. It may be that everything was on the up and up, but ignoring the red flags is not an answer. All people asked for was an honest audit, along with states following their own election rules.

Peter Scott
Peter Scott
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Exactly.
All that people asked for was an honest audit.
I myself am not rooting for President Trump; but I am deeply shocked when a major election in the USA is massively suspect.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Peter Scott

“All that people asked for was an honest audit.”
NO THEY DID NOT
trump claim on Twitter fraud but when his lawyers went to court they claimed irregularities. HUGE DIFFERENCE!
Read the Court cases
Watch recording on YouTube of court cases

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Youtube known as ‘Screwyou’ which stops ANY criticism of UK Lockdowns or ‘climate change”.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Not in court!
Trump lost 60 cases. Claiming in Twitter and Unherd fraud is not the same thing as going to court and claiming fraud.
READ THE COURT CASES! public info.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

What case was actually heard in court? Zero. Ironically, John Roberts argued against hearing the Texas case over fears of violence, and he was not alluding to violence from the right. Dismissing cases over procedural matters and technicalities is not losing a trial.

Stuart Tallack
Stuart Tallack
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Affidavits signed by whom and alleging what? In what way did the videos look odd? Please help us to understand what you believe and what evidence is available.
Stuart

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Stuart Tallack

Affidavits signed by multiple alleging the same ballots being recounted, Repub election watchers being denied access, and statistical anomalies that fly in the face of decades of history.

The Internet is a big place. There are numerous accountings of red flags and things that don’t look right. For four years, we were told how Russians impacted the vote in 2016, but those same people now insist that everything is perfect, no matter the things that look odd.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

I don’t believe Trump won this election, but it is interesting that many Dems were recently telling us he only won in 2016 because of Russian interference. The BS comes back to bite?

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

Indeed it does and kudos for being honest enough to remember it. I’d settle for an honest look into the allegations. If they show Biden winning in clean fashion, then so be it and we move on.

Pete Kreff
Pete Kreff
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

I don’t believe Trump won this election, but it is interesting that many Dems were recently telling us he only won in 2016 because of Russian interference. The BS comes back to bite?

Well, indeed. If the Democrats had been less pointlessly antagonistic right from the start – Russia collusion claims, the Kavanaugh fiasco – perhaps some Trump supporters would be less likely to believe in a stolen-election conspiracy.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Pete Kreff

It was concluded that Russia interfered – just couldn’t be proved Trump or his team colluded in the interference.

geoffbastin999
geoffbastin999
3 years ago
Reply to  Stuart Tallack

You obviously haven’t seen the videos or heard the evidence or the lists of those long dead that submitted their ballot papers or all those late ballots that were counted. Election fraud must be addressed wherever it arises but unfortunately it doesn’t seem to matter to you and many others as long as you are on the winning side.

Robert Forde
Robert Forde
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Hmm. I have debated this with people of your view, but they have not been able to come up with more than (essentially) “It must be true, ’cause I saw it on the Internet”. We KNOW that at least some of the evidence was fabricated (eg, those “dumped” ballot papers that turned out to be blank). We also know that Republicans have been very heated about elections where the Democrats won, but have resisted investigation into those where Republicans won. Not a strong case, really. But I agree that, if evidence can be found, it should be investigated by the proper authorities, and any culprits prosecuted. The trouble now is that, if they aren’t found, the diehards will just carry on screaming about conspiracy.

Conspiracy theorists are very insecure people, and there may be good reasons for this. It causes them to embrace several conspiracy theories, usually. In the long run, their concerns should be addressed, so that they feel more confident in civil institutions again. In the short run, law and order should be maintained, whoever is responsible.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Robert Forde

How many irregularities must there be before you consider that perhaps the situation is worth a look? Dismissing me as a conspiracy kook says more about you than me. There are hundreds of signed affidavits of people alleging things under penalty of perjury. There are videos of things that require explanation. There are statistical anomalies no one wants to explain. Why not? What are you scared of finding?

Seems if Camp Biden were so convinced of his winning, they would champion a hearing, audit, or whatever else in hopes of the result being confirmed so they could rub Trump’s nose in it. Instead, they dismiss any question out of hand. People have seen inexplicable vote dumps. They know of the issues with Dominion. They are aware of the historical irregularities. Are those all coincidence? No one knows. Because there is an avid resistance to taking an honest look.

It’s not too much to ask that an allegedly free society have some faith in its electoral system. I can take losing. It’s happened before. But a Chief Justice who turns away a lawsuit over fears that violence might follow is not how a first-world nation behaves. Hear the case. If there is merit, so be it. If not, then be that. But all we’ve had is decisions based on procedure and technicalities, not on merit.

Peter Scott
Peter Scott
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

So you have looked at the evidence, structural and in individual particulars, have you BEFORE making this choric assertion?
See https://townhall.com/column

geoffbastin999
geoffbastin999
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Said Jeremy shouting from his cot.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Yes & Bill Clinton Never Met Monica Lewinsky, The Clintons never fiddled whitewater investments, kennedy Supporters never tipped thousands of ballots into Lake Michigan in November 1960, Nixon never ordered the burglary of Watergate in June v1972, ,but you ”aren’t’ a nutjob yourself..

Stuart Tallack
Stuart Tallack
3 years ago
Reply to  Peter Scott

Peter, you will have to explain about the “mounds and heaps of proofs” to people on the other side of the Atlantic who are not privy to the evidence you believe. Where does it come from? In what way is the truth being suppressed in UK and European media of all political persuasions? Who is suppressing it and why?
Stuart

Peter Scott
Peter Scott
3 years ago
Reply to  Stuart Tallack

Normally I am, or have been, dismissive of conspiracy theories. For one thing they imply remarkable competence among the people supposed to working the scam; for another, they transgress the good rule-of-thumb of Occam’s Razor.

But the way in which nearly the whole of the Occidental media went berserk – hysterical – frantic with rage when Donald Trump was elected President in 2016; and then continued to invent imaginary cases against him (Russia, Ukraine, 25th Amendment) in a desperate (and evidentially exploded) effort to unhorse him, roused real suspicions in me.

It was all so over the top. Trump did some big good things, just by being a candidate, and then in office. He in other regards fell far short of being virtuous or competent (I mean politically, let alone in his private life or discourse). But clearly he was not another far-right demagogue seeking to undermine the Constitution and instigate military rule (as regularly alleged by some broadcasters); just an average US president.

When people go screaming mad about something, it means that something they have is at stake. You don’t go raving up and down the street screaming about your next door neighbour’s daughter marrying a ‘wrong-un’ if you don’t have an acute personal interest in the daughter yourself.

I don’t myself care for Donald Trump. He is nepotistic, a panderer, he is – in point of his homework as a president – hopelessly lazy. He has failed to keep his key election promises. I am not sorry if we have seen the last of him.

What scares me is the idea that our biggest ally and the country leading the Free World has been taken over in a coup d’etat (spearheaded by the short- and middle-term alliance of Big Money and the ‘Liberal’ Left “meritocracy”).

If one major election can be drastically subverted and falsified then that country is permanently up for grabs to anyone who has the means and the megaphones so to do.

I suspect that most journalists throughout the western world now are either wittingly complicit, or unwittingly being played, to propagandize merely for the aforesaid alliance; and have little to do with finding out facts about stories, events, phenomena.

John Lamble
John Lamble
3 years ago

The Daily Telegraph which rather fancies itself as a ‘newspaper of record’ has today published a large array of hysterical articles about the DC protests, not one of which has the usual Comments section and not one of which has the measured tone of Mr Dougherty’s article. As an outsider, albeit one who has extensively visited the United States, my ‘take-home’ feeling is one of amazement that the protesters were peacefully trying to get what they understand to be the correct democratic result. Given the never-ending goading of the ordinary American by the media, politicians and ‘the Swamp’ I’m surprised (although relieved) that there wasn’t a single assault rifle on display. All the daft comments about this being a ‘coup’ are wide of the mark and the media response has been a wiful distortion which can only increase scepticism about democracy among those already feeling pretty alienated.

Charles Rense
Charles Rense
3 years ago

I actually know how this all ends. This all ends when both the left and the right agree to let bygones be bygones. It’s the time in between now and that point where I have no clue what happens. But I can garauntee you this: the sooner that happens the less serious those bygones will be, and the easier it will be to let them be bygones.

Kathryn Richards
Kathryn Richards
3 years ago
Reply to  Charles Rense

Agreed, but it won’t happen any time soon. Cue Brexit/Remainer

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Charles Rense

Good luck with that. At this point, we’re a nation of exes. We can be civil if necessary, we can even be cooperative in matters of the kids, but otherwise, we no longer have a shared reality. Half the country gives every impression of hating the place and the other half has the opposite view. I don’t see how that is reconcilable.

Real Horrorshow
Real Horrorshow
3 years ago
Reply to  Charles Rense

Human beings don’t work like that.

Muscleguy
Muscleguy
3 years ago

They do in the right circumstances. See for eg the transfer from White minority to Black majority rule in South Africa.

I knew plenty of Saffers, Rhodesians and their cheerleaders they all fully expected it to end in blood. Human behaviour was mentioned then.

Real Horrorshow
Real Horrorshow
3 years ago
Reply to  Muscleguy

What about the massive corruption? ANC ministers lining their pockets while huge swathes of the population stay as poor as they were under apartheid.
What about the black on black violence? Economic migrants from Nigeria and Zimbabwe beaten and murdered by mobs.
So far as I can see SA swapped one self serving elite for another.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago

I agree with you there. I fully expected the new government to ignore or fail to implement the Freedom Charter, but I was surprised when they simply tore it up.

Gerry Fruin
Gerry Fruin
3 years ago
Reply to  Muscleguy

Rather different situation in the Rep of SA at the height of apartheid Muscleguy. It’s a sad tale as I learnt working in the country at that time. Afrikaners arrived and developed, blacks came in and got work. Conditions bad – but far better than where they came from. Changes were taking place despite what Western MSM churned out. Underlying the agitation and trouble promoted by the CIA was the real cause of Western interest. South Africa had gold and heavy involvement in diamonds in South West Africa. America and Russia (industrial diamonds) saw a chance to alter the status quo.
A crude potted history and I apologise for that. However, the up-shot was so predictable I could weep even now hence my response.
Stay safe, stay well, Happy New Year.

Charles Rense
Charles Rense
3 years ago

They do, once they’ve faced enough horror. My challenge to humans is to save a step and do this before we face a greater level of horror.

Such ideological conflicts do have a sad history of being multigenerational, thus supporting your claim. But that’s how it has to end regardless. And it’s just going to get worse and worse the longer we remain stubborn.

Let’s be a historical exception. We can choose that. And it will be far easier to choose that today than tomorrow.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago

I found yesterday’s events to be very inspiring, although of course I regret the deaths. Everybody knows the election was stolen due to the Democrats changing the electoral laws in four key battleground states, in contravention of the constitution.

Whatever, it’s over for the US and the West. Contrary to the claim in the article, the US is no longer the most important country in the world, China is. The oligarchic US governing class bows to China because that’s what makes them rich, while the jobs of working class Americans are shipped abroad, and their lives destroyed. Just look at the way in which the NYSE has refused to de-list Chinese companies, despite an executive order.

The US governing class is destroying the US, just as the EU is destroying Europe.

Kathryn Richards
Kathryn Richards
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

How can you say the election was stolen?
Any which way you look at it Biden got millions more votes than Trump.
There has been no proof of any significant fraud, in fact that which has been found has been by the Republicans.
My guess would be that any fraud committed on both sides probably cancel each other out.
Postal votes are legal, and this year there were bound to be more than usual.
Trump lost, by a large margin.

stuart.marshall
stuart.marshall
3 years ago

Because he only consumes media that exclusively states that it was. Echo chamber mentality. That’s why we’re in this mess. It’s no coincidence that a movement that started with disavowing mainstream media has ended with QAnon.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago

Amazing. First this guy states, that Fraser “only consumes media…”, with no real knowledge, or offered proof, Kathryn states: “no proof of…fraud…”, then “guesses” that any fraud is on both sides. Outrage is not rebuttal, and “disavowing mainstream media…’ is put forth as a problem? C’mon man! -as our new president would say.

stuart.marshall
stuart.marshall
3 years ago
Reply to  stephen f.

Pretty much every mainstream media organisation on the planet has stated that Trump’s fraud allegations are baseless. How could you assume that *everybody* knows these allegations are correct when you’re mainly consuming media that tells you you’re wrong?

Philip Burrell
Philip Burrell
3 years ago

TBH I am beginning to wonder if the guy (F) is just a troll. Always seems to be one of the first to comment on anything. Most of them seem to either include “the US election was stolen”, or “I threw my TV out 20 years ago”, the latter usually being part of a rant about the current BBC output! Then there is the endless abuse of the teaching profession e.g yesterday “Quite plainly the majority of teachers simply do not want to teach. This is not necessarily a bad thing as most of them seem to know nothing and exist largely to fill the heads of children with progressive lies and nonsense.”

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago

Pretty much every mainstream media organisation on the planet has stated exactly the same things as Pretty much every mainstream media organisation on the planet.

Starry Gordon
Starry Gordon
3 years ago
Reply to  J StJohn

Much of what the mainstream media publish is indeed false or misleading, and is certainly unreliable, as you can find out by investigating for yourself (if it doesn’t come out publicly, like the lying to get the invasion of Iraq in 2003 started), but this doesn’t prove anything positive. That is, that the media say Biden won doesn’t prove Trump won. And there are so many ways of checking electoral results that that kind of news is likely to be true; it’s when you can’t check things that you get grotesque fables like Russiagate, and the prevalence of fable in supposedly straight media leads directly to the proliferation of conspiracy theories among the people.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Starry Gordon

Those Iraqi WMD and Iraqi links to al-Qaeda, and the media hacks who reported them as fact, have a lot to answer for. The war on Iraq first and foremost, but also a widespread and entirely justified scepticism regarding anything they’ve said since.

Starry Gordon
Starry Gordon
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

Knowledge is power. People who have power — leaders, politicians, bureaucrats, cops — want to keep their power, so it is not in their interest to dilute their power by letting other people have the knowledge they possess and control. The behavior of ruling class, government, and mass media with regard to truth and falsehood follow. Iraq 2003 is but one case among many.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Starry Gordon

Iraq was a particularly blatant and egregious case, with devastating consequences. But yes.

G Matthews
G Matthews
3 years ago

Actually over 50% of the US electorate when surveyed agreed with the statement that the ‘election was rigged’, including 68% of republicans, 31% of independents and even 17% of democrats.

hqbergeron
hqbergeron
3 years ago

Way to demonstrate the herd mentality right here on unherd.com. The truth is we don’t really know if Trump is correct or not. No unbiased arbiter has seriously examined the election results. Courts have thrown out the cases based on either being untimely, lacking standing or not individually involving enough votes to change the outcome of any particular state (even though if all cases were combined some would). The Georgia recount was worthless as it did not take the necessary step of verifying signatures, no one has been allowed to examine the paper ballots where they exist, there are still many questions about the Dominion machines…and on and on. It seems like the Democrats and even some Republicans are afraid of what might be found instead of being eager to confirm Biden’s win and put to rest every concern. Instead, the Democrat strategy during the entire election and post-election has been to run out the clock and discredit without proof anything and anyone that could prevent a Biden win.

hqbergeron
hqbergeron
3 years ago

Number of overall votes do not matter, only electoral college votes matter. Trump lost by small margins in enough states that the electoral college votes were quite closely contested. Interestingly, some of these states ignored their own constitutions and illegally changed rules for voting and monitoring the counting that may have changed the outcome. And some courts were either too biased or too spineless to fully examine the arguments, instead finding technicalities to throw out most of the cases.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  hqbergeron

Trump lost 62 court cases and won 1.
Release the Kraken!

Eleanor Barlow
Eleanor Barlow
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

‘Everybody knows the election was stolen due to the Democrats changing
the electoral laws in four key battleground states, in contravention of
the constitution.’

No, everyone does not ‘know’ this. Stop peddling false information.

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago
Reply to  Eleanor Barlow

It’s only partially false. Everyone who’s looked into it knows the Dems fiddled the ballot. It was largely constitutional and legal as far as I can tell. I personally object to postal voting, Trump may have won if postals were restricted as in the election he won, It’s legal but worth noting there’s no democratic mandate for postals i.e. this change to the ballot was never put to the people. If it were put to the people I believe they’d back postals, It’s wrong to have not done that. Trump is too stupid to realise he should’ve done that while in power, or maybe he’s clever enough to realise he’d lose if he did. If I was a Dem I’d’ve fiddled the ballot exactly the way they did it; it’s sharp and clever.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  J StJohn

There’s no democratic mandate for postals?
I thought they’d been an integral part of the electoral process in many states for ages.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

They have existed in some states, but not on a nationwide basis. And there is a stark difference between absentee ballots and pure mail-in voting. This 11th hour change was a recipe for confusion and it worked out fairly well.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

There may be some difference between absentee ballots and mail-in voting, but according to Wikipedia:
In 1998, voters in Oregon passed an initiative requiring that all elections be conducted by mail.
In 2011, the Washington legislature passed a law requiring all counties to conduct vote-by-mail elections.
In 2013, Colorado began holding all elections by mail.
Recipes for confusion, which enabled the election of D J Trump?

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

WA and OR are reliably blue, and CO leans that way, so no, none would help Trump. Still, you’re making my point – this practice exists in some states and has been around for a while to allow for ironing out wrinkles. The most recent case is seven years old. The Postal Service struggles to satisfy its mission as it is; adding complications was not an answer.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

There is no nationwide change regarding mail-in voting.
States did it their own way.

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Perkins

It was started without democratic approval. That’s commonplace. The politicians like to make decisions on our behalf without consulting us. When those decisions skew the outcomes of elections, or line their own pockets, or change the fundamental status of our national identity, my view is that we should get a vote. As it is , we have short=term elected dictatorships. As George Orwell pointed out, many of us know that democracy is largely a scam; however , it’s better than any alternative thats been tried and it does give us ordinary mortals the best protection we’ve managed to devise, I just think that fiddling with the system could be more rigourously defended by actual democratic votes when appropriate.

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  J StJohn

It was started without democratic approval?
According to Wikipedia, “The U.S. state of Oregon established vote-by-mail as the standard mechanism for voting with Ballot Measure 60, a citizen’s initiative, in 1998. The measure made Oregon the first state in the United States to conduct its elections exclusively by mail. The measure passed on November 3, 1998, by a margin of 69.4% to 30.6%.”
In what way is that lacking democratic approval? Or has Wikipedia got its facts wrong?

Real Horrorshow
Real Horrorshow
3 years ago
Reply to  J StJohn

Trump uses postal voting himself.

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago

We all know Trump’s a t**t. Such was the relentless animus from the media and establishment toward him, I couldn’t see how he had a hope of reelection; and yet. in the middle of the greatest crisis since vietnam, he’s garnered more votes than anyone ever (save biden, of course); Next fime, someone half decent who can corral Trumps base must have a great chance;

Philip Burrell
Philip Burrell
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Your knowledge of the constitution is obviously vastly superior to that of all the judges, many of whom were Trump appointees, who have rejected every lawsuit that has been brought by Republicans claiming the election was stolen. This sort of dangerous nonsense is exactly what has caused this outrage. Contrary to what you say, we all know the election was won fairly by a healthy majority and to claim otherwise is as bad as believing in QAnon!

I can’t help thinking if that had been a BLM invasion of the Capitol Building, the security forces would have taken a more forceful approach, resulting in a lot more casualties.

Having listened to Jonathan Haidt’s interview with Freddy yesterday, his warnings about the extremist takeover of both the Left and the Right in US politics were prescient indeed. His interview was inspiring, what happened yesterday was an abomination.

J StJohn
J StJohn
3 years ago
Reply to  Philip Burrell

‘I can’t help thinking if that had been a BLM invasion of the Capitol Building, the security forces would have taken’
THE KNEE

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  J StJohn

you can be certain no one would have been shot.

Andrea X
Andrea X
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Huh?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Morons think that the election was stolen – led by the Moron in Chief Donald Trump.

G Matthews
G Matthews
3 years ago

I would point to the Reuters/Ipsos poll that revealed that 68% of republicans, 31% of independents and even 17% of democrats said the election was rigged

https://uk.reuters.com/arti….

If the disconnect between the establishment, who wanted to push the election through with no serious scrutiny, and the people, half of whom no longer have belief in election integrity, cannot be resolved then the situation will get worse and worse.

Neil Bradley
Neil Bradley
3 years ago
Reply to  G Matthews

Amen to that. Incidentally, after the farce with the Congressional prayers, I looked up the origins of Amen. Linguistically, it has absolutely nothing to do with Gender. Derived from Hebrew to Greek to Latin and hence into English. Originally Amin. Meaning verily, truly, it is true and let it be so. Also used to express strong agreement, which is how it is used above.

Teo
Teo
3 years ago

UnHerd interview with Q Shaman please, want to know what this guy has to say.

stephen f.
stephen f.
3 years ago
Reply to  Teo

That’s the ticket!

Ian Perkins
Ian Perkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Teo

According to The Telegraph, “Jake Angeli: The ‘QAnon shaman’ from Arizona at the heart of the Capitol riots,” ‘there are videos on Youtube of him rambling through the baseless Qanon theories,’ not that I’ve tried finding them. Still, I’d love a full length interview here with such a prominent QOnanist!

Pete Kreff
Pete Kreff
3 years ago
Reply to  Teo

No doubt it will be some conspiracy-theory shite about devil worshippers and paedophiles operating out of Congress.

Alex Sydnes
Alex Sydnes
3 years ago

The more I think about it this may be another kind of Reichstad moment for modern liberalism. It does have more than a passing similarity to what happened in Charlottesville, VA, during the Unite the Right demonstration in 2017. Richard Spencer and the rest were completely set up by a combination of government officials (from the state level to city and police). They didn’t have a chance. Really, the explicitly white-rights or Trump people haven’t a clue about these things and end up getting utterly destroyed every time. Their naive and inept tactics with public images and gestures combined with their enemy’s uncanny subversive intelligence, control of government and media dooms them from the start.

Seb Dakin
Seb Dakin
3 years ago

I thought it looked a ‘largely peaceful’ protest, by today’s standards.

Tina D
Tina D
3 years ago

As shameful as this has been for the US, the lesson must still be learned. Let’s revisit why Trump became popular. We are distrustful of China and want to curtail its influence (reasonable), we want to control our respective borders (reasonable). – Prime minister Howard from Australia said it right, ‘WE choose who comes here’. As a linguist (retired) we cannot compromise our valuable culture with immigrants who do not respect our way of life and seek to devalue and diminish it. I deplore Trump, however he was elected for a reason. Let’s not ignore the voice of the populace or it will be at our peril. This has been a quiet revolution-next time it won’t be. Just ask the French.

Vikram Sharma
Vikram Sharma
3 years ago

Let’s try a thought experiment, shall we? Assume Trump has won narrowly. Antifa and BLM invade the Capitol building, a Black woman is shot. Now imagine the outrage- the outpourings of grief at the oppressed not having their voice heard and being shot in cold blood in a peaceful protest.
Q Anon are dickheads, and Trump a moron in his handling of this. He should have acted for once gracefully and conceded defeat. Let Biden and Harris take charge. Let them bring in reparations for slavery and affirmative action for Blacks. 5% of White citizens of USA have an ancestor associated with slavery. Non-white non-Black minorities like Asians are not going to pay for reparations, and no on in America will point to the role of the Arabs. So only the White groups will have to pay. Cue people trying not to be called White.
But someone has to be oppressed, otherwise the banshee howls and blood lust of BLM will not be satiated. Some white will have to suffer under the politics Biden and Harris.
Trump should have allowed this to unfold and stand for elections in 4-8 years 9May be too old though)
Whatever the contempt that Guardian reading White folks have for their own kin, and no matter how much they despise their own ethnic group, eventually the White will have to strike back.
Let’s give Democrats a chance to unleash genuine civil war in America. Guardian and left wingers are desperate for a race conflict. They will not rest till there is one. Let Democrats be in charge when that happens. Thats the only way out.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Numerous cities were boarding up windows before the election. Not out of fear of Trump losing. Chief Justice John Roberts pleaded with colleague against hearing the Texas lawsuit out of concern there might be violence. Again, not from fear that the decision would go against Trump.

Dave H
Dave H